@@TheWorldsprayerIt needs to be basic, if you are to coordinate hundreds of AI controled assets in large scale fleet combat, the latter being what myself and others consider to be the X4's forte, as other space sims offer a much better single player ship experience. That is the issue right now in 7.5 beta, the existing AI scripts not being able to handle the new, more complex, fight system, that lead to more and more unwanted behaviors from AI controled ships.
@@ragnos28 This is the more basic problem for X4, the ability of humans to tell the AI HOW to fly WHERE and doing WHAT. Just doesn't exist, except as the basic "Attack" or "Attack harder" or "Attack second" that we currently get. What we'd like is to be able to choose, and an AI competent enough that it will carry out our "overall orders" and if we chose... poorly... then the AI would still carry out those orders, but get flattened by being out of position for the actual progress of the enemy in battle. E.g. if we did a full envelopment, then that means our "central force" is merely 1/3 of the total force, because we have other stuff going left and right and extending their line to a rear attack. But if the enemy just roars into combat range early, those other forces, the majority of our fleet, are not in position to attack, and so our "solid centre" gets a drubbing. If we put a few Rays in the middle so as to slow down the enemy fleet and act as bullet sponges, just taking all that damage as our other forces get into place, then the same tactic would work, because our solid centre can take the punishment, and when our enveloping forces are in position, the enemy fleet is unable to turn (because that would mean time without anyone to shoot at) but without turning, our forces have them as an easy target. What they heard was an uncontested "the flight model is terrible", and all those voices said "So choose SC/ED/MyPreference where the flight model is GREAT!!!!", and so to catch those sales, the flight model had to change. Uncontested because all those NOW proclaiming "There wasn't a problem before!!!!" were SILENT. Me? I was saying "No, the flight model is somewhere between ED and current SC, and a full 6DoF model, so what is wrong with the flight model?" Which, unsurprising to me, never once got answered. I was saying that the FIGHT model was what they were conflating as "the flight model", but the FIGHT model HAD to be simpler because whilst ED had an instance of only a dozen or so NPCs to run at max, and SC didn't even have that, X4 had to have a FIGHT model that scaled to hundreds of ships and thousands of bullets on screen to deal with. And that only on your own PC, not shipped off to a remote server to deal with (which is why ED has a rubber banding problem with ITS fight model under multiplayer modes). And what you there are calling "the flight model" is actually the fight model. Fight. Not Flight. See the different spelling.
@@markhackett2302 I think the Flight aspect is also relevant. For example, destroyers flying in formation, you know, you select only the leader of a destroyer fleet and order it to move to position, and its subordinates destroyers, stay in formation and follow the leader that is under AI control, at least this how it works in 7.1. Something like this: ua-cam.com/video/_JpVvW-PCOg/v-deo.html , see? Leader moves, the subordinates move in formation, the leader stops, the subordinates stop. In 7.5 the "liberal" use of travel drive, mean that subordinates will overshoot the leader position, by a large margin, Something like this: ua-cam.com/video/rdhZ3KNp1wk/v-deo.html , well, the issue is getting them moving at first, because the leader and 4 subordinates are stuck in mid space, but after getting moving, is someting like this: ua-cam.com/video/rdhZ3KNp1wk/v-deo.html check out how the leader handles the aproach to target, and keep watching to see how the subordinates react next, and then comeback to the 7.10 clip link and see the difference. This is how they behave while on target (indeed, this is a Fight part, but I still think is relevant): ua-cam.com/video/rdhZ3KNp1wk/v-deo.html , the destroyer subordinates keep putting themselfs in unfavorable positions. This has to have something to do with the Flight aspect. 🤔 And on the the subject of IF or NOT was a problem before with the flight system before, in the current version anyway...simply put, there are a lot of gameplay elements that I'm able to perform in 7.10, like lossless station demolition, performed by destroyers under AI control, in high attention, like the simple act of launching fighters from a Raptor, like fighters performance in intercept and bombard role, and the like...that I'm no longer able to perfom in 7.5 beta. And the problem I'm facing in bringing this to devs attention, is that I cannot say its a bug report, I can only show clips like...this is how ships behave in 7.1 in this scenario, this is how ships behave in the 7.5 beta, in the same scenario, is this change in behavior intentional or not?
I personally don't mind the new flight mechanics when it comes to player piloting. It is a bit jarring though when ships like the Experimental Shuttle and Yasur feel like they're still using the old mechanics (possibly due to their insanse speeds?). I also hope that someday ES will improve the avarice/aggression mechanics. It feels odd running into scenarios where the Teladi are hyper militaristic while the Xenon become pacifists, or seeing some factions ship loss rates outpace their production.
I would not mind the new flight mechanics either, if it would not mess up the performance of all AI controled assets. S/M/L/LX ships are all affected, and none is good. Everyone goes on and on about how great is now to pilot their personal M ship...but I have xenon invasions of a hundred escorts, 5 Ks and 2 Is, how I'm I suppose to deal with that with my personal M ship? Plus, I have ZYA sectors overwhelmed with xenon stations, that I need to take out...how am I suppose to deal with that with my personal M ship? 🤨
It's extremely funny to see x4 players angry that a BETA TEST has problems. I believe that no one who activated the beta knows that its problems are fixed little by little, and regarding the new flight model, EgoSoft will have a new challenge, and of course, if in the end when the update comes to everyone and the game persists with these various problems regarding the flight model, players can criticize EgoSoft as much as they want, but again, players don't know what a beta test means and are criticizing EgoSoft in a way that even seems like the update has already been released, when the only job of players in this beta is to report bugs and errors, but apparently players don't know that.
Hi! I advise you to check again, there was no beta update, but the fighters began to work well, as did the turrets. I have a feeling that micro-patches are being released without being advertised about it, I can't give any other explanation. I want to add that I tested the takeoff of 30 chimeras, in the first case I had pilots who did not have stars, in the second case the pilots had 5 stars, so in the first case they stumbled slightly at the end of the raptor's nose, but it was tolerable, but the pilots with 5 stars flew perfectly. Perhaps I don't rule out that CPU usage and FPS are affected here, since I'm testing at a creative start, in the same sector as you, I also have a small fleet there, but no empire.
I will wait for the Beta 4 before going back to beta testing. And my report of the issue of fighters taking off from a Raptor: forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=468412 have not received a reply or a ticket number, so there is a chance that this issue will not be fixed even in beta 4.
I added a comment that I personally saw before, I had the same situation, and now I see that everything is quite normal, the fighters are fighting well, the turrets of the big ships have now stopped missing. It seems to me that developers are posting micro-patches without advertising.
@@BasstedPlay I see. Still gone wait for beta 4, just to be sure they iron out the issue. 🤔 I would make another video test in beta 3, but if the pinball effect happen again, then ppl would pile on me...is still beta 3, ofcourse it will not work, you are just disingenuous, booo...
The fleet should be able to have interceptors, small ships there ONLY to stop at range the enemy fleet. Nothing else, just tie them up at range. That leaves your other ships free to circle safely that zone whilst they get into place. Of course, an enemy fleet wants an anti-interceptor fleet to stop those interceptors of yours getting to stop the fleet body, so that THEIR fleet can target left, taking out your flanking forces when those forces of yours are out of position and unable to rate their guns on a target, but their forces are positioned so as to have you dead in their sights and a valid target.
Thats all good and fine, but I just want my fighters to be able to exit my Raptor in a timely manner, since it is a carrier that does not have launching tubes. 🤔 If the 7.5 is not able allow me to do that, it will be a problem for me, regardless if the hostiles are 25 km away, or near my position.
@@ragnos28 That's all good and fine, but you aren't the only one who bought the game, so you don't get to demand only what you want and do is what the game does.
@@markhackett2302 Then again, the Raptor is part of an DLC content, as in content that I've paid extra, after purchasing the base game, and a big reason for which I've purchase the said adittional content, is the abillity to use the asset that is the Raptor . I believe this issue falls under legitimate customer service request.🤔
Because S and M ships often fly even faster than a carrier, it is completely unnecessary to let the ships dock except for a few when they are being repaired.
Except that if you asign S/M ships to carrier, you CANNOT prevent them from landing on it. Only with Position Defence you can have fighters patrol around the carrier, and only as long as PD is active. And while S and M ships often fly even faster than a carrier, I much rather have a carrier as an "anchor" to manage 100 fighters, than having to constantly try to select a wing of 100 to move around and give attack orders to them. Also, they are situations when I don't want to risk fighters losses, for example, when the Raptor's turrets can handle swarms of hostile S/M.
It's extremely funny to see x4 players angry that a BETA TEST has problems. I believe that no one who activated the beta knows that its problems are fixed little by little, and regarding the new flight model, EgoSoft will have a new challenge, and of course, if in the end when the update comes to everyone and the game persists with these various problems regarding the flight model, players can criticize EgoSoft as much as they want, but again, players don't know what a beta test means and are criticizing EgoSoft in a way that even seems like the update has already been released, when the only job of players in this beta is to report bugs and errors, but apparently players don't know that.
I'm sure that in the 2 or 3 years required for the AI to be sorted in order to deal with the new flight system, all problems will be fixed little by little. 😈 Until then...there is always the no steam 7.1 X4 exe. 😁 Seriosly now, I think this is the most messed up X4 beta since 2018, and I think I'm not alone in that assesment...like I said in another reply, this is the first beta in 6 years that I had to abandon.
As an IS warrior, I can only keep my fingers crossed. 🙏 Did ES think about the Timelines DLC missions? I'm afraid they've become much heavier due to inertia.🙈🙉🙊
I havent actually played this game since my capitals were being constantly held for ransom by tiny things like repair drones. Is this the time to get back into the game?
Hmm...version 7.10 has about the best behavior destroyers got so far, they still suck against xenon capitals tho, and still fighters will trump destroyers in any role except station demolition. But at least stuck repair drones no longer hold you hostage or spin a suposedly hundred tones ship, and fighters getting stuck in the texture is not a so often occurrence.
"Begun, the clone wars has" [cue epic music]
Amazing, beautiful!
I never thought the old flight model was bad-
I had a feeling that it would mess with the A.I. pilots
Same here.
Happy holidays! 🥳
eh it was never more than basic when you compare to more focused space sims.
@@TheWorldsprayerIt needs to be basic, if you are to coordinate hundreds of AI controled assets in large scale fleet combat, the latter being what myself and others consider to be the X4's forte, as other space sims offer a much better single player ship experience.
That is the issue right now in 7.5 beta, the existing AI scripts not being able to handle the new, more complex, fight system, that lead to more and more unwanted behaviors from AI controled ships.
@@ragnos28 This is the more basic problem for X4, the ability of humans to tell the AI HOW to fly WHERE and doing WHAT. Just doesn't exist, except as the basic "Attack" or "Attack harder" or "Attack second" that we currently get. What we'd like is to be able to choose, and an AI competent enough that it will carry out our "overall orders" and if we chose... poorly... then the AI would still carry out those orders, but get flattened by being out of position for the actual progress of the enemy in battle.
E.g. if we did a full envelopment, then that means our "central force" is merely 1/3 of the total force, because we have other stuff going left and right and extending their line to a rear attack. But if the enemy just roars into combat range early, those other forces, the majority of our fleet, are not in position to attack, and so our "solid centre" gets a drubbing. If we put a few Rays in the middle so as to slow down the enemy fleet and act as bullet sponges, just taking all that damage as our other forces get into place, then the same tactic would work, because our solid centre can take the punishment, and when our enveloping forces are in position, the enemy fleet is unable to turn (because that would mean time without anyone to shoot at) but without turning, our forces have them as an easy target.
What they heard was an uncontested "the flight model is terrible", and all those voices said "So choose SC/ED/MyPreference where the flight model is GREAT!!!!", and so to catch those sales, the flight model had to change. Uncontested because all those NOW proclaiming "There wasn't a problem before!!!!" were SILENT.
Me? I was saying "No, the flight model is somewhere between ED and current SC, and a full 6DoF model, so what is wrong with the flight model?" Which, unsurprising to me, never once got answered. I was saying that the FIGHT model was what they were conflating as "the flight model", but the FIGHT model HAD to be simpler because whilst ED had an instance of only a dozen or so NPCs to run at max, and SC didn't even have that, X4 had to have a FIGHT model that scaled to hundreds of ships and thousands of bullets on screen to deal with. And that only on your own PC, not shipped off to a remote server to deal with (which is why ED has a rubber banding problem with ITS fight model under multiplayer modes).
And what you there are calling "the flight model" is actually the fight model.
Fight.
Not Flight.
See the different spelling.
@@markhackett2302 I think the Flight aspect is also relevant. For example, destroyers flying in formation, you know, you select only the leader of a destroyer fleet and order it to move to position, and its subordinates destroyers, stay in formation and follow the leader that is under AI control, at least this how it works in 7.1. Something like this: ua-cam.com/video/_JpVvW-PCOg/v-deo.html , see? Leader moves, the subordinates move in formation, the leader stops, the subordinates stop.
In 7.5 the "liberal" use of travel drive, mean that subordinates will overshoot the leader position, by a large margin, Something like this: ua-cam.com/video/rdhZ3KNp1wk/v-deo.html , well, the issue is getting them moving at first, because the leader and 4 subordinates are stuck in mid space, but after getting moving, is someting like this: ua-cam.com/video/rdhZ3KNp1wk/v-deo.html check out how the leader handles the aproach to target, and keep watching to see how the subordinates react next, and then comeback to the 7.10 clip link and see the difference. This is how they behave while on target (indeed, this is a Fight part, but I still think is relevant): ua-cam.com/video/rdhZ3KNp1wk/v-deo.html , the destroyer subordinates keep putting themselfs in unfavorable positions.
This has to have something to do with the Flight aspect. 🤔
And on the the subject of IF or NOT was a problem before with the flight system before, in the current version anyway...simply put, there are a lot of gameplay elements that I'm able to perform in 7.10, like lossless station demolition, performed by destroyers under AI control, in high attention, like the simple act of launching fighters from a Raptor, like fighters performance in intercept and bombard role, and the like...that I'm no longer able to perfom in 7.5 beta.
And the problem I'm facing in bringing this to devs attention, is that I cannot say its a bug report, I can only show clips like...this is how ships behave in 7.1 in this scenario, this is how ships behave in the 7.5 beta, in the same scenario, is this change in behavior intentional or not?
I personally don't mind the new flight mechanics when it comes to player piloting. It is a bit jarring though when ships like the Experimental Shuttle and Yasur feel like they're still using the old mechanics (possibly due to their insanse speeds?).
I also hope that someday ES will improve the avarice/aggression mechanics. It feels odd running into scenarios where the Teladi are hyper militaristic while the Xenon become pacifists, or seeing some factions ship loss rates outpace their production.
I would not mind the new flight mechanics either, if it would not mess up the performance of all AI controled assets. S/M/L/LX ships are all affected, and none is good.
Everyone goes on and on about how great is now to pilot their personal M ship...but I have xenon invasions of a hundred escorts, 5 Ks and 2 Is, how I'm I suppose to deal with that with my personal M ship? Plus, I have ZYA sectors overwhelmed with xenon stations, that I need to take out...how am I suppose to deal with that with my personal M ship? 🤨
It's extremely funny to see x4 players angry that a BETA TEST has problems. I believe that no one who activated the beta knows that its problems are fixed little by little, and regarding the new flight model, EgoSoft will have a new challenge, and of course, if in the end when the update comes to everyone and the game persists with these various problems regarding the flight model, players can criticize EgoSoft as much as they want, but again, players don't know what a beta test means and are criticizing EgoSoft in a way that even seems like the update has already been released, when the only job of players in this beta is to report bugs and errors, but apparently players don't know that.
I wish boarding and unboarding at airports was as efficient as this.
I think only fix is make dock/undock more casual - by using teleport :D . I think we have such old mode for this.
You mean for 7.5? 🤔
As for dock/undock, I think we need BSG Galactica style...lauching pads and and retratable lateral landing platforms.🤓
Hi! I advise you to check again, there was no beta update, but the fighters began to work well, as did the turrets. I have a feeling that micro-patches are being released without being advertised about it, I can't give any other explanation. I want to add that I tested the takeoff of 30 chimeras, in the first case I had pilots who did not have stars, in the second case the pilots had 5 stars, so in the first case they stumbled slightly at the end of the raptor's nose, but it was tolerable, but the pilots with 5 stars flew perfectly. Perhaps I don't rule out that CPU usage and FPS are affected here, since I'm testing at a creative start, in the same sector as you, I also have a small fleet there, but no empire.
I will wait for the Beta 4 before going back to beta testing.
And my report of the issue of fighters taking off from a Raptor: forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=468412 have not received a reply or a ticket number, so there is a chance that this issue will not be fixed even in beta 4.
I added a comment that I personally saw before, I had the same situation, and now I see that everything is quite normal, the fighters are fighting well, the turrets of the big ships have now stopped missing. It seems to me that developers are posting micro-patches without advertising.
@@BasstedPlay Have you also tested fighters taking off from the Raptor, is all at 7.1 levels?
@@ragnos28 yes, quite, they only stumble sometimes, but they all take off in the end, I have it 95% close to 7.1
@@BasstedPlay I see.
Still gone wait for beta 4, just to be sure they iron out the issue. 🤔
I would make another video test in beta 3, but if the pinball effect happen again, then ppl would pile on me...is still beta 3, ofcourse it will not work, you are just disingenuous, booo...
The fleet should be able to have interceptors, small ships there ONLY to stop at range the enemy fleet. Nothing else, just tie them up at range.
That leaves your other ships free to circle safely that zone whilst they get into place.
Of course, an enemy fleet wants an anti-interceptor fleet to stop those interceptors of yours getting to stop the fleet body, so that THEIR fleet can target left, taking out your flanking forces when those forces of yours are out of position and unable to rate their guns on a target, but their forces are positioned so as to have you dead in their sights and a valid target.
Thats all good and fine, but I just want my fighters to be able to exit my Raptor in a timely manner, since it is a carrier that does not have launching tubes. 🤔
If the 7.5 is not able allow me to do that, it will be a problem for me, regardless if the hostiles are 25 km away, or near my position.
@@ragnos28 That's all good and fine, but you aren't the only one who bought the game, so you don't get to demand only what you want and do is what the game does.
@@markhackett2302 Then again, the Raptor is part of an DLC content, as in content that I've paid extra, after purchasing the base game, and a big reason for which I've purchase the said adittional content, is the abillity to use the asset that is the Raptor . I believe this issue falls under legitimate customer service request.🤔
Because S and M ships often fly even faster than a carrier, it is completely unnecessary to let the ships dock except for a few when they are being repaired.
Except that if you asign S/M ships to carrier, you CANNOT prevent them from landing on it. Only with Position Defence you can have fighters patrol around the carrier, and only as long as PD is active.
And while S and M ships often fly even faster than a carrier, I much rather have a carrier as an "anchor" to manage 100 fighters, than having to constantly try to select a wing of 100 to move around and give attack orders to them. Also, they are situations when I don't want to risk fighters losses, for example, when the Raptor's turrets can handle swarms of hostile S/M.
It's work now?
Nope.
It's extremely funny to see x4 players angry that a BETA TEST has problems. I believe that no one who activated the beta knows that its problems are fixed little by little, and regarding the new flight model, EgoSoft will have a new challenge, and of course, if in the end when the update comes to everyone and the game persists with these various problems regarding the flight model, players can criticize EgoSoft as much as they want, but again, players don't know what a beta test means and are criticizing EgoSoft in a way that even seems like the update has already been released, when the only job of players in this beta is to report bugs and errors, but apparently players don't know that.
I'm sure that in the 2 or 3 years required for the AI to be sorted in order to deal with the new flight system, all problems will be fixed little by little. 😈
Until then...there is always the no steam 7.1 X4 exe. 😁
Seriosly now, I think this is the most messed up X4 beta since 2018, and I think I'm not alone in that assesment...like I said in another reply, this is the first beta in 6 years that I had to abandon.
As an IS warrior, I can only keep my fingers crossed. 🙏
Did ES think about the Timelines DLC missions? I'm afraid they've become much heavier due to inertia.🙈🙉🙊
Yes, IS warriors unite. 😁
Happy holidays! 🥳
Hi , why not a full gameplay ? ^^ A real game ?
Because the uploading time would be...huge. 😋
What ships are those
Those are Chimera fighters.
I havent actually played this game since my capitals were being constantly held for ransom by tiny things like repair drones. Is this the time to get back into the game?
Hmm...version 7.10 has about the best behavior destroyers got so far, they still suck against xenon capitals tho, and still fighters will trump destroyers in any role except station demolition.
But at least stuck repair drones no longer hold you hostage or spin a suposedly hundred tones ship, and fighters getting stuck in the texture is not a so often occurrence.