There are no nazis in Dust 1947 & the developers were very particular about this fact. They would not let models painted with nazi symbols feature on any of their official websites & discouraged players & modellers from depicting the models this way.
One thing that I think should be clarified is that the primary kind of miniature sold (at least here in the States) were “Primed” miniatures, meaning they came pre-assembled and primed with a basecoat, ready for painting. This was the game that first got me into the hobby, and that aspect really helped because assembly was very intimidating at the time. Dust USA always had a very “beginner-friendly” and “fun first” business model, so much so that they largely did away with tournaments and instead instituted “Dust Days,” events where the focus was placed on advancing the narrative and having a good time rather than individual victory. Speaking of the narrative, another thing that I believe was left out of note is that the universe of Dust was advanced largely by the players submitting battle reports to the company. Drastic, and unexpected, things occurred that the designers did not expect. For example, a group of players in Florida dramatically changed the situation in their home state through a series of games that led to an SSU (China and Russia) invading and holding ground over southern Florida. This was not expected by the designers at all, but it was fully embraced into the narrative. This really gave a feeling of weight for your favorite faction when you played, as each game you reported could very well change the course of the story. As a final note, you’re the only person I’ve ever heard complain about the way the women are portrayed in the game. Not only are they not all portrayed as pinup girls (Rosa and Lara just to name two), but I know of no other historical game with as much female representation in it, with two factions (Axis and Mercs) having women and the it leaders. I just have to ask, how badly does your hand hurt after pearl-clutching THAT hard.
indeed, great recount of the history of a company and IP. I'm not attracted to WW2 aesthetic, but watching some Dust Battle reports it looked like a really fun game.
Since the IP started from art I always assumed Paolo was channeling all the cheesecake art style of the era for his silhouettes. However, when looking through the miniatures I never found any that looked ... Badass or capable, and that really turned me away. I agree that we should expect more from our games. I've also seen the release of the 15mm Konflict'47 stuff and I'm very excited. They look amazing.
When I discovered your channel I've become patreon. Your content is very interesting. I would love to see more videos on design subject, being designer myself. But as somebody from Poland I disagree with statesment about germans/nazis in a game. You cannot have WW2 game without that faction because they started the war. And we shouldn't change history in that aspect even if that's alternate history game. Because history will repeat if we do. Also I think oversexualization isn't an issue here - it was more lack of proper marketing / budget for it. All mentioned games set in similar setting aren't also big hits btw. And last question - why there are so many videos / podcasts missing from the channel?
I had a podcast before I had a YT channel, so the first 50+ episodes didn't make it onto YT. I've been experimenting with different formats, recently, as you'll have noticed. That you cannot have a WW2 game without Nazis has already been disproven by Dust and by Konflikt 47, both of which have don't have Nazis, being set in a continuing conflict after the Nazi regime has fallen. Of course, they are speculative games, and a purist wouldn't play them. But purist historical games aren't really what we're talking about. In Bolt Action, one can choose to field a range of different German forces, of which the Waffen SS is but one. And whilst I'd never say that faction shouldn't exist - and I never have in a podcast or video - I continue to argue that people who choose to play that faction should understand that some people will make assumptions about them based on their choice and may not want to play them. Such is life. And finally, the use of sexualized imagery as way of boosting visibility of a product is a long and ignoble tradition. It's a free market and if someone wants to do that, so be it. But I reserve the right to point it out and observe that it doesn't paint our hobby in a great light and that I would rather they focus of developing a better product. That said, Witaj! I look forward to continuing the discussion on the Discord.
@@PrecinctOmegaWargaming well you have mentioned oversexualization as one of reasons this game is no longer on the market. I'm not sure if it was so edgy in that subject in the first place and probably I wouldn't say it was reason it failed while we have games like "Kingdom Death" on the market. Of course second one is extreme, niche but still - alternate WW2 wouldn't probably gather so much attention of female players anyway I guess? I see bigger problem with lack of proper marketing when you and I, people who are into wargames - haven't heard about all those variants and editions of the game. Judging players basing on the fact they choose nazis as their faction in a game is very stupid concept. The same goes with Tau and communists?
To be fair, the models of women in the main factions seem perfectly fine to me. Even the Japanese schoolgirls aren't overtly sexualized, just more of an anime aesthetic. It was certainly odd that they made up a bulk of the available infantry for that faction but I think they were going to diversify that more eventually. No, where the "cheesecake" seemed mostly concentrated in the Mercenary faction, most of which I had no interest in buying as a result. I like scantily-clad voluptuous women as much as the next heterosexual male but, for me, the time and place for that isn't in a tabletop war-game. However, easy enough to avoid those and still have lots of fun with the rest of it.
Yes, cheesecake art does say something about the designer - that he's a redblooded male with a healthy sex drive. There are probably 10,000 miniatures rulesets out there - truly something for everyone. Why do we have to subject every single one to NeoPuritan tyranny? Why can't you people just play what you want and leave others in peace?
You are correct there are probably 10,000 miniatures rulesets out there. By all means, play with the ruleset that makes you happy. For myself, when I play miniatures games, engaging with a "redblooded male's healthy sex drive" is not what I'm interested in, nor having it represented on my table.
@@jcb00677 Guessing you're not a big fan of historical nose art either. Surprisingly, every woman I've met who is familiar with the game finds Mercs more appealing than off-putting. I'm betting most of the men who find it distasteful don't know any actual women gamers. I've heard the same thing about Raging Heroes minis - but the studio painter is a friend of mine and she doesn't share the opinion of all these men who are white-knighting it. It's OK if you don't like that sort of thing, for whatever reason - maybe women make you uncomfortable or whatever - but it's not necessarily representative of anything else.
@@jcb00677 also, you might want to avoid the other games Robey recommends, because they have Nazis (i.e. Konflikt '47) or Nazi cheesecake (see: Greta von X in Secrets of the Third Reich). Conclusion: Apparently playing a game with Nazis is OK, as long as they're not wearing tank tops?
28:38 I'd like to speak up for those gamers who aren't interested in the modelling aspect of miniatures games. Have to say that I have little to no interest in painting miniatures. I have neither the skill nor patience nor inclination to paint miniatures. In terms of expense - I've ruined expensive miniatures with poor painting skills. Yes I could commission a painter but that's a complete faff on and can be rife with conflict, disappointment and expense. Fully pre-painted miniatures completely appeal to me, but sadly there aren't enough of us non-painters out there for fully painted games to prosper it seems.
Bro - you don't have a basic knowledge about fluff of Dust, but You critisize... Japan Imperial Navy has a units of military school cadettes (that's why they looks like schoolgirls) , and whole style of japanese army alludes to anime/manga culture... Mercenaries where the most of miniatures are female, where created on pin-up background. Your comment is highly biased and not supported by reality
I will say that your opinion on the cheesecake art .. is misinformed he's drawing women as they were drawn during the 1940s.. he draws them like they were on b17s.. and this had nothing to do with dust 1947 failures it's completely a shipping and logistics issue
Never see someone talking for so long about a subject and knowing so little about the game, the fluff and its history. I tried to appreciate your perpective on this but unfortunately I didn't. So many mistake about the history of this game and Battlefont era. You really don't understand the fluff behind the game, we can clearly see it in the way you critizize the game. So its a great flaws view of an outsider on this game that shouldn't have been so long. You are trying to get into the details of something tou don't know enough about. 🤷.
So what's wrong with cheesecake? You try to make out like it was times and a male thing when it's a person's style and also female artist enjoy cheesecake and draw cheesecake. So you come off a sexist prurient. I was turned towards the game by youtuber hobby night who is a girl who loved the cheesecake. Other then that great vid
It's a popular category of boardgame that focuses on theme, conflict and randomness, in contrast to Eurogames that tend to be abstract, deterministic and minimize player conflict. Betrayal At House on the Hill is classic Ameritrash, whilst Agricola is classic Eurogame. The term was originally pejorative but is now used neutrally by game reviewers and commentators.
There are no nazis in Dust 1947 & the developers were very particular about this fact. They would not let models painted with nazi symbols feature on any of their official websites & discouraged players & modellers from depicting the models this way.
One thing that I think should be clarified is that the primary kind of miniature sold (at least here in the States) were “Primed” miniatures, meaning they came pre-assembled and primed with a basecoat, ready for painting. This was the game that first got me into the hobby, and that aspect really helped because assembly was very intimidating at the time. Dust USA always had a very “beginner-friendly” and “fun first” business model, so much so that they largely did away with tournaments and instead instituted “Dust Days,” events where the focus was placed on advancing the narrative and having a good time rather than individual victory.
Speaking of the narrative, another thing that I believe was left out of note is that the universe of Dust was advanced largely by the players submitting battle reports to the company. Drastic, and unexpected, things occurred that the designers did not expect. For example, a group of players in Florida dramatically changed the situation in their home state through a series of games that led to an SSU (China and Russia) invading and holding ground over southern Florida. This was not expected by the designers at all, but it was fully embraced into the narrative. This really gave a feeling of weight for your favorite faction when you played, as each game you reported could very well change the course of the story.
As a final note, you’re the only person I’ve ever heard complain about the way the women are portrayed in the game. Not only are they not all portrayed as pinup girls (Rosa and Lara just to name two), but I know of no other historical game with as much female representation in it, with two factions (Axis and Mercs) having women and the it leaders. I just have to ask, how badly does your hand hurt after pearl-clutching THAT hard.
Thank you for this video, I alsways interested game and company history and people behind them :)
indeed, great recount of the history of a company and IP.
I'm not attracted to WW2 aesthetic, but watching some Dust Battle reports it looked like a really fun game.
Since the IP started from art I always assumed Paolo was channeling all the cheesecake art style of the era for his silhouettes. However, when looking through the miniatures I never found any that looked ... Badass or capable, and that really turned me away. I agree that we should expect more from our games. I've also seen the release of the 15mm Konflict'47 stuff and I'm very excited. They look amazing.
When I discovered your channel I've become patreon. Your content is very interesting. I would love to see more videos on design subject, being designer myself. But as somebody from Poland I disagree with statesment about germans/nazis in a game. You cannot have WW2 game without that faction because they started the war. And we shouldn't change history in that aspect even if that's alternate history game. Because history will repeat if we do. Also I think oversexualization isn't an issue here - it was more lack of proper marketing / budget for it. All mentioned games set in similar setting aren't also big hits btw. And last question - why there are so many videos / podcasts missing from the channel?
I had a podcast before I had a YT channel, so the first 50+ episodes didn't make it onto YT. I've been experimenting with different formats, recently, as you'll have noticed. That you cannot have a WW2 game without Nazis has already been disproven by Dust and by Konflikt 47, both of which have don't have Nazis, being set in a continuing conflict after the Nazi regime has fallen. Of course, they are speculative games, and a purist wouldn't play them. But purist historical games aren't really what we're talking about. In Bolt Action, one can choose to field a range of different German forces, of which the Waffen SS is but one. And whilst I'd never say that faction shouldn't exist - and I never have in a podcast or video - I continue to argue that people who choose to play that faction should understand that some people will make assumptions about them based on their choice and may not want to play them. Such is life. And finally, the use of sexualized imagery as way of boosting visibility of a product is a long and ignoble tradition. It's a free market and if someone wants to do that, so be it. But I reserve the right to point it out and observe that it doesn't paint our hobby in a great light and that I would rather they focus of developing a better product. That said, Witaj! I look forward to continuing the discussion on the Discord.
@@PrecinctOmegaWargaming well you have mentioned oversexualization as one of reasons this game is no longer on the market. I'm not sure if it was so edgy in that subject in the first place and probably I wouldn't say it was reason it failed while we have games like "Kingdom Death" on the market. Of course second one is extreme, niche but still - alternate WW2 wouldn't probably gather so much attention of female players anyway I guess? I see bigger problem with lack of proper marketing when you and I, people who are into wargames - haven't heard about all those variants and editions of the game.
Judging players basing on the fact they choose nazis as their faction in a game is very stupid concept. The same goes with Tau and communists?
To be fair, the models of women in the main factions seem perfectly fine to me. Even the Japanese schoolgirls aren't overtly sexualized, just more of an anime aesthetic. It was certainly odd that they made up a bulk of the available infantry for that faction but I think they were going to diversify that more eventually. No, where the "cheesecake" seemed mostly concentrated in the Mercenary faction, most of which I had no interest in buying as a result. I like scantily-clad voluptuous women as much as the next heterosexual male but, for me, the time and place for that isn't in a tabletop war-game. However, easy enough to avoid those and still have lots of fun with the rest of it.
Yes, cheesecake art does say something about the designer - that he's a redblooded male with a healthy sex drive.
There are probably 10,000 miniatures rulesets out there - truly something for everyone. Why do we have to subject every single one to NeoPuritan tyranny? Why can't you people just play what you want and leave others in peace?
You are correct there are probably 10,000 miniatures rulesets out there. By all means, play with the ruleset that makes you happy. For myself, when I play miniatures games, engaging with a "redblooded male's healthy sex drive" is not what I'm interested in, nor having it represented on my table.
@@jcb00677 Guessing you're not a big fan of historical nose art either. Surprisingly, every woman I've met who is familiar with the game finds Mercs more appealing than off-putting. I'm betting most of the men who find it distasteful don't know any actual women gamers.
I've heard the same thing about Raging Heroes minis - but the studio painter is a friend of mine and she doesn't share the opinion of all these men who are white-knighting it. It's OK if you don't like that sort of thing, for whatever reason - maybe women make you uncomfortable or whatever - but it's not necessarily representative of anything else.
@@jcb00677 also, you might want to avoid the other games Robey recommends, because they have Nazis (i.e. Konflikt '47) or Nazi cheesecake (see: Greta von X in Secrets of the Third Reich). Conclusion: Apparently playing a game with Nazis is OK, as long as they're not wearing tank tops?
His talk about the cheesecake feels like a none issue that should have been left out of the video, as it feels like he is demonizing cheesecake
28:38 I'd like to speak up for those gamers who aren't interested in the modelling aspect of miniatures games. Have to say that I have little to no interest in painting miniatures. I have neither the skill nor patience nor inclination to paint miniatures. In terms of expense - I've ruined expensive miniatures with poor painting skills. Yes I could commission a painter but that's a complete faff on and can be rife with conflict, disappointment and expense. Fully pre-painted miniatures completely appeal to me, but sadly there aren't enough of us non-painters out there for fully painted games to prosper it seems.
Battlefield is from the Battlefront era
Bro - you don't have a basic knowledge about fluff of Dust, but You critisize... Japan Imperial Navy has a units of military school cadettes (that's why they looks like schoolgirls) , and whole style of japanese army alludes to anime/manga culture... Mercenaries where the most of miniatures are female, where created on pin-up background. Your comment is highly biased and not supported by reality
I will say that your opinion on the cheesecake art .. is misinformed he's drawing women as they were drawn during the 1940s.. he draws them like they were on b17s.. and this had nothing to do with dust 1947 failures it's completely a shipping and logistics issue
Never see someone talking for so long about a subject and knowing so little about the game, the fluff and its history. I tried to appreciate your perpective on this but unfortunately I didn't. So many mistake about the history of this game and Battlefont era. You really don't understand the fluff behind the game, we can clearly see it in the way you critizize the game. So its a great flaws view of an outsider on this game that shouldn't have been so long. You are trying to get into the details of something tou don't know enough about. 🤷.
So what's wrong with cheesecake? You try to make out like it was times and a male thing when it's a person's style and also female artist enjoy cheesecake and draw cheesecake. So you come off a sexist prurient. I was turned towards the game by youtuber hobby night who is a girl who loved the cheesecake. Other then that great vid
Ameritrash?
It's a popular category of boardgame that focuses on theme, conflict and randomness, in contrast to Eurogames that tend to be abstract, deterministic and minimize player conflict. Betrayal At House on the Hill is classic Ameritrash, whilst Agricola is classic Eurogame. The term was originally pejorative but is now used neutrally by game reviewers and commentators.