My old man passed away 3 years ago and I got a lot of his tools and such. I have all my own stuff already since it’s what I do for a living but I still took it because using his tool box and tools remind me of when I was younger. I was finally going through and getting rid of stuff (junk and broken stuff) when I stumbled upon a box that said on it Mitutoyo and I remember this box from when I was a kid but never opened it. I opened it and saw very well kept calipers inside but I already have a set of digital calipers and honestly I’m no engineer so I don’t really know caliper brands. I just put them in storage after debating to either toss em or sell em for like 20$ (don’t judge me I had no idea 😂) my Pittsburgh calipers shit the bed finally and I was about to go buy another pair when I remembered that box I put up. I pulled em out and realized all the instructions are in Japanese and they seemed unbelievably well made and these things are atleast 30 years old. I looked em up….I’ve had a pair of $250 calipers that I was thinking about tossing 😑 all because “I already have a digital set why would I use a dial set?” Now I understand why people are so hesitate to get rid of stuff and become hoarders haha
First off, sorry about your dad. Inheriting good tools is probably the only perk of that situation. I really do think that once you feel what quality is like, you will appreciate it and start looking for it. There is a real debate on this video for who likes what brand and what style of calipers, but it truly is a really personal decision. In the end, you're the one making parts. You're responsible for what you make and how you get it done, so use something you trust.
I have 6-8 calipers. I bought a starret dial caliper and discovered they are now made in Brazil, and that one broke right away. I use it for scribing sheet metal now. My Mitutoyos have been flawless. Also have some brown and sharpe that are excellent.
I haven't heard about the Starretts being made in Brazil, but I have heard of their lower tier being made in China. I have my biases against China's manufacturing practices in the past, but the Starrett's I have are made there and the construction is pretty decent. Starret's upper tier which cost close to $300 are made in USA, but I'm not really sure how much that means anymore either. Truthfully, I think every company has their weak products sometimes. It doesn't mean they completely suck, but they had a bad design, or cut too much cost on a product line. Good companies recover from mistakes. I still think Mitutoyo is a good company, they just didn't make the calipers I had bulletproof like they usually are able to do. I'm sorry you had some bad luck with the set you bought. I actually like hearing the problems people have had with ANY brand. It's a nice survey of what works and doesn't. I would definitely go with some Brown and Sharpe at some point too.
@@themeandrousengineer Well I have my opinion on Chinese tools and it is that they could make perfect quality tools... but their ball and roller bearings are still lousy... and it is my impression that they have their own "philosophy" in regards to "Quality Control": They just don't take their defective lots out from production, they keep every bad lot, and carefully and gradually put every defective item into a shipping box or container, so that it goes to sale mixed with 999 of "good" items, and not a single unit is ever wasted or reworked, and ends up on an unsuspecting consumer, and the Chinese just don't care!
Wanted to add- on the Starrett 120A models; they have 4 screws on the face plate, you can remove those and clock the entire needle to point at the 12 o'clock position if they ever get bumped out of alignment. an extremely easy process.
That’s awesome. I have heard stories about older tools from Brown and Sharp lasting forever. One of my machining jobs a decade ago had some on hand to use for larger sizes. They were some heavy duty calipers and felt solid yet smooth in their movement. I have heard conflicting stories as to whether their quality is still the same these days. I hope those stories are wrong.
I used Mitutoyo dial calipers with the inside and outside measuring faces carbide tipped as my go-to calipers. My main measuring tool was a Brown and Sharp 0-1” micrometer. I used the first one so much that I rubbed the numbers off the thimble. I changed jobs before I wore out the second set.
Thank you for your video. Following your link to the MSC Mitutoyo product, the third thumbnail down on the left side makes it appear that spare parts are available to replace your broken thumb wheel hook. You need part No. 06AEY270. I bought a Mitutoyo 505-637-66 dial caliper in 1977. I paid $65 dollars for it, which was a hunk of change for a poor college student. I used it daily until retiring a few years ago. I believe it's a better product than is available today. Currently, I'm looking to buy a metric version of the same thing, as I prefer dial calipers to digital. Batteries, and all that. But then, I still wear mechanical wrist watches. I don't find much to choose from in the way of metric dial calipers. The Starret metric caliper does 2 mm per revolution and is graduated in 2mm tick marks. I want 1 mm per revolution, and 1mm tick marks. Mitutoyo makes one, but it doesn't seem to be as nicely made as my beautiful 47 year-old one. So I may end up with digital. UGH! Maybe I'm just inept, but I can't find anybody who stocks Brown & Sharpe. Does B&S still exist?
There are definitely spare parts available for the calipers. I've tracked down that same part no and I may have a follow up video at some point for repairing them. Thank you for the info! I'm admittedly a little stuck in the past on my tooling choices. I too appreciate a mechanical watch, but I try really hard to appreciate that quartz watches are still precise and keep ticking forever as long as they have a good battery. I think that quality has diminished from the old days to mitigate costs and the mighty dollar speaks louder than any of us, so here we are. Brown and Sharp still exists but they seem to be under or part of the the name Tesa now. If you search Tesa Brown and Sharpe you'll get some results. I haven't tried any of their stuff since that name change. They used to be quite good before that though.
If you work with calipers daily, digital is great, but they use batteries and if you use them only infrequently, well…you know what happens when batteries leak, plus of course they will be flat when you most need them and you can’t always get those button cells locally….So for the infrequent user I’d recommend dial calipers.
In regards to "button type" cells: just buy BETTER ones, instead of generic ones... I always buy more expensive Swiss made "Renata" brand button batteries, or authentic "Sony" ones in a pinch, and had never one to leak in at least the 26 years I have had my excellent 8" Mitutoyo Digimatic caliper. But I avoid shitty "Duracells" and chinese Radio-Shack ones as the plague... "Duracell: Guaranteed to leak!" I remember when Duracells were the brand to go... but greedy and stoopid American CEOs transformed that previous excellent brand into sh*t!, just like Champion sparkplugs, Boeing airliners, Crapsman tools, and soon Intel chips...
I've used Brown and Sharpe for decades. I like the black face dial calipers. Really all of my tools are Brown and Sharpe. Calipers, indicators, micrometers. Trust them all.
I’ve always heard good things about them. I’ve used some calipers that seemed pretty consistent. Are the ones you have older or within the last several years? I saw that they were bought out by TESA in 2001 but a corporate takeover could go several ways.
@@themeandrousengineer l think l bought them in the early 90's. I've been a Tool and Die maker for a very long time. Most of the stuff l do requires indicators, gauge blocks, hight master stuff like that. I usually run surface grinders and EDM but I do like to jump on a mill sometimes and that's when l use the calipers and micrometers a lot.
went through a set of starrett digital calipers in less than 6 months, didnt drop them or soak them they just stopped working right. mitutoyo verniers have been dropped, grabbed by an endmill and thrown (should turn off spindle before measuring!), dropped some more, and are still onsize throughout the range. 6 years going strong, tips of the jaws have been ground down a good 0.250" to get rid of the bent tips from dropping
@@themeandrousengineer very true, many once great brands have gone downhill or made major mistakes in design. like anything else, fair share of gimmicks and corner cutting
Including your own mistake in a review of a precision tool seems insane to me. As a separate anecdote, I have dropped several different sets of Mitutoyo digital calipers (IP67 and standard) and have never had a problem. The speed and flexibility of well-made digital calipers (like Mitutoyo) will always trump analog calipers in the hands of a working machinist. You can do numerous things with them that you either cannot do with dial or would take significantly longer.
I'll always try to admit my mistakes in my videos. I think the truth is important and I hope it's refreshing for people who find my channel. That being said, that's awesome that you've never had any problems with the Mitutoyo's that you've dropped. I would be curious as to the manufacture date and if they're more recent or pre 2020. I've found a lot of products that have seemed to cut costs in ways that degrade quality after the supply issues of 2020, including some couches that continue to hurt my back. I will always be an analogue guy at heart, but I do find digital calipers useful and would actually prefer to have both available, although excessive.
@@thomasstuart6861 Oh yeah, if I'm machining something that has a tolerance of +/- 0.001 or less I'm definitely using a micrometer. Take no chances on that for sure. The sheer fact that they can fail or that even a good set of calipers can flex that much when you apply too much pressure should keep you cautious.
@@thomasstuart6861 If it matters, you're not using calipers. They are the tape measure of the machinist world; great for loose tolerances and quickly checking things, but everything critical needs to be confirmed with something more reliable.
I bought my first Mitutoyo in 1985. I finally bought a later version of that caliper just last year. Not exactly the planned obsolescence described here. Before that I was buying a dial caliper on average once a year because they got dropped. The hazards of a mechanical shop though I've always done a fair amount of machining on various projects as well as wood working in my retirement. I've tried less expensive digital calipers like iGaging and while a decent caliper I just didn't like the feel. I would never recommend that someone pay the money for the Starrett name over Mitutoyo. Both are quality tools. Like all tools, it all comes down to personal preference and experience. My experience said replace the Mitutoyo with a Mitutoyo. Now I'm going to have to go and compare the old one to the replacement. BTW the old one got replaced because after 35 years the battery cover broke.
I would be interested how the 1985 version compares to the new one for sure. You have a lot of truth in what you're saying. Calipers will never last forever, but a run from 1985 is pretty good. I wouldn't actually advise someone to buy an expensive caliper if it doesn't work for them either. I just know what I have liked over the years and that touches on the main point you made. Calipers are a personal choice. As this video has demonstrated with the feedback I've received, people are very passionate about their measuring equipment.
I’ve been using my Fowler Sylvac III digital calipers for about 12 years and they are still very accurate. I use them daily as a machinist. They were recommended from our tool and die inspector.
Nice to know a good caliper recommendation. I’ve seen and used Fowler’s before but they haven’t come up much in my area. People are pretty devoted to the two here in the video and then you hear a lot about the older companies that have been lost or lost quality. One look at Fowler and you can tell they’re well made and being Swiss is a reputational plus as well.
I’ve used the same set of Mitutoyos for over 15 years. Never dropped them yet… I also have Starrett’s. Both are excellent but the digital ones are far faster to use.
CNC operator here : DON'T buy Mitutoyo Digital calipers new or secondhand. There's lots of fakes out there, and right now it's a really bad time. Some fakes people are charging a price where it's obvious it's fake but other fakes people are charging the full retail price and it's kinda difficult and unclear to tell them apart. . . HOWEVER, I daily and absolutely love their dial calipers. Japanese made Mitutoyo dial calipers are awesome, just as awesome as the American made Starrett's. Plus I haven't seen any fakes of those yet.
Good advice. I do still think that if you buy Mitutoyo from industrial suppliers that you can be confident about the authenticity. Like from MSC, McMaster Carr, or Grainger. Maybe even an authorized supplier. Just not on Amazon or eBay.
I bought a Mitutoyo caliber in 1977 and they have preformed perfectly. As it happens I bought nice Starrett 120 caliber for $20.00 today. No plastic in either.
I would worry less about the older calipers, but you can still get some high quality ones from both Starrett and Mitutoyo today. You just gotta be careful which one you choose. I find myself wondering where you got some Starretts for $20? Thanks for watching!
Being old enough to remember when people had things repaired, but not being a machinist, I wondered whether you could have your Mitutoyo calipers repaired. Rather than just ask here, I did a tiny amount of research and found Mitutoyo's repair website (it's any easy find). Not only do they seem to repair and calibrate their products, but their website form supplies the Absolute series of calipers as a default for one of the imput fields. Perhaps you might want to make an inquiry (and share the results)? Or not.
Oh I’m definitely old enough to remember when people had things repaired. I long for those days. The right to repair movement definitely has a point. You’re not the first to suggest contacting mitutoyo. I may just yet give them a chance to fix it.
When I started out just out of trade school my first pair of calipers was a Brown & Sharp vernier caliper. I used them for about ten years or so till the dial type came along and bought another B&S. Eventually needed a 12 inch. I bought a Starrett that time. The vernier was and still is the one I use I like the best because It"s never wrong. And needless to say my vision isn't what it used to be so it now has a magnifier on it. I retired at 62 and still working in my home shop at 75.
After reading several testimonials here from this video, I’m definitely understanding the love for verniers. It still fits within my love for mechanical calipers and has no way for inaccuracy over time besides scarring the rule.
Development engineer here. You're 100% wrt. to use of micrometers instead. At work, I've some (cheap) plastic dial verniers to not scratch carbon. Good enough for 0.03mm, rather light. And some Vogel (made in Germany) for larger parts, though MechEng is not my field.
I didn't have to replace my personal Starrett dial calipers at all. At work I did replace the digital Mitutoyo's from the video with some Starrett 120-A's. They've been pretty good so far.
In the harshest shop environments the 50 division vernier caliper with a micrometer will take punishment, the dial type gets fouled up. Too bad about the plastic on the Mitutoyo fine adjuster, it would seem the caliper is still useable anyway.
Verniers are getting a lot of votes here in the comments. I’m actually really happy to see that because I’ve previously thought they were fading away and so few people knew how to read them. You’re right about my digitals, they still work ok with the fine adjustment gone. They still measure accurately. It’s more of a nuisance than anything.
@@themeandrousengineer I have not looked into it for years, the government standard for vernier calipers accuracy is .0005" inch per 12", most all manufacturers Mitutoyo, Brown Sharpe, Scherr Tumico, Starrett meets that, at least at one time dial calipers could only meet that up to 12" in length until Mitutoyo came out with a twin beam 24" dial with a mechanical counter because of the design, then digital broke out strong in the 80s. I have vernier calipers up to 48" I once used to set up various types of processing equipment. I think the best deals are on Scherr Tumico, more under the radar than Starrett and Mitutoyo. Verniers, I think they are going to be around in some heavy industry for their durability, some users are really hard on calipers, good subject!
@@deedeeindustrialsuperprecision When I started this channel I wanted it to be a well rounded DIY/maker niche. Measuring seemed like a good transcendental topic for making of all types. Considering how well this video has done (for me so far) I may have to do some more measuring topics over time.
I finally saved up enough money to purchase a Starrett 0-1 digital micrometer. From day one, it killed the battery every few days, if I left the battery in the instrument. A few months later, I lost one of the segments in the digital display. So I took it back to the local sealer where I bought it, and they sent it in for repair. 6 months later, I finally got word from my local Starrett dealer that this very expensive digital micrometer was not repairable, and they couldn't help me. The Starrett dealer, suggested that I should purchase a Mitutoyo next time!!! And so I did!!! I will never purchase another new Starrett tool again, as the quality control and warranty has gone to Hell!!! My old Starrett tools are wonderful, as are my Starrett swap meet purchases. But New Starrett stuff is CRAP!!! My Mitutoyo 6" digital is still working perfectly 40+ years later!!! I am rather depressed, that the once most excellent brand, Starrett has become a poor quality shadow of it's former self!!! Tim
Man, I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for sharing the story. It makes me curious when this happened and what model Starrett micrometers they were? Also, were they the "made in China" version or "made in the USA"? I truly think that each manufacturer has their issues these days. Starrett has their cheaper lines that are made in China, yet I have a set of calipers at work that were made in the US which are pretty good. As a manufacturing engineer, I hate to say it, but I'm not so sure that "made in the USA" is the quality beacon it used to be as a blanket statement. I do think we still have some quality products that are made here, but you pay through the nose for them. Sometimes in your case, it might be possible to pay through the nose for American made yet wind up with a paper weight. This is due to numerous things, but I have a few theories...
We went all digital at work so there are at least 30 Mitutoyo's floating around at any given time. That being said, the failure I see frequently is foreign material jamming into the slide, rending them useless. Battery cover areas break now and again also. I do enjoy the speed at which they can read.. But I dont like how sharp the edges are and how cheap the plastic feels.
We've had some of the Mitutoyo digitals that are coolant proof around my work for almost a year now. They still perform fine, but man, they show wear really quickly. The way ours look it's like people are throwing them on the ground every day. No one had the thumbwheel break like me, but the way the casing wears it still makes me question. I would be curious if another shop has this issue or if it's just people on the floor abusing things. I like having digitals for switching to metric at work for sure.
@@themeandrousengineer My suggestion if I was in their R&D department would be to have the piece snap right back on and make it a sales feature, then add $10 for the upgrade. ......wow, and I'm a 66 year old flooring installer. ...that ownes a dial caliper and 4 dial indicators. 😁
In truth, I’m not totally devoted to one brand or the other. There are certain models from each brand that I think are pretty good. There some exclusions to that like SPI or something similar. Although I am open to other brands of power tools, I am also a big Makita fan.
i ruined several dial calipers when a chip gets in the rack and goes through the mechanism so i switched to the coolant proof absolute mitutoyo. had them for about 5 years nothing broke till one of my employees drove over it with a forklift when it dropped off my golf cart. ( my shop is 200,000 ft) . plus with digital it's super easy to to get actual center to center of 2 holes. you set zero anywhere you want.
I definitely wouldn’t blame Mitutoyo for not standing up to a forklift. I really do think that digitals have their place and are quite useful. Dials have their issues too, depending on where you use them. Mine at this point aren’t subjected to a chip or large particle environment so they work well for me. Really I think if I had my preference, I would have a set of dials, digitals and verniers just for covering bases.
You should be able to fabricate an aluminum hook and thread it with an 0-80 screw and take the unit apart and drill a pass through hole in the plastic to fix those Mitutoyo calipers. Alternatively you might be able to solvent weld that plastic hook back in place with solvent weld for plastic depending upon the plastic they used. Also on the Starrett they make the same basic model 120 made in china and also made in the USA. There is a big difference in cost and quality.
They still work ok, despite the annoyance. It didn’t really prevent me from using them, but they should definitely get some JB Weld at some point. Is it really that strange? I’ve really felt things have diminished in quality after 2020 and all the supply chain issues we’ve experienced in the world.
Most interesting; many thanks. Looking at vernier scaled, in this case Mitutoyo, the slides seem much the same as digital and dial calipers, but without the fragile reading heads and magnetic scales. Even with real abuse it is hard to imagine damaging the accuracy - even the class biro-mechanic would be hard pushed. Rightly or wrongly I don't trust dial and digitals past 2 thou, and verniers are quoted as that anyway. If I have an important measurement I will always use verniers, or past that, a micrometer. Conclusion: verniers are more robust, as usefully accurate, cheaper, and inspire more confidence. What do you think???? You now have 707 subscribers. Peter
Thank you so much for the subscribe! After all of the feedback from others the verdict still seems skewed to digitals because a lot of people say they hold up under coolant environments. I have never really had that problem since I would either blow off the part first before measuring or my machine wasn't like a coolant rainforest. Beyond that I think you're right about vernier's, they will last and are the cheapest option by far. Mitutoyo makes a 6" set that's around $57 or maybe a little more and you can trust them to around 1-2 thou just like you're saying. If you feel comfortable reading them, I say you are right to go that way. As I talk to more and more people, it is really not a "what's better" but more of a "what works for you" decision. I plan on getting a vernier set to compare to my others and also do a tutorial so more people can become comfortable using them and allow another choice.
Thanks for that. I have been trying to find an article for you; the author is Cyril Freezer, one time editor of the British 'Railway Modeller Magazine'. C.J. Freezer was a man of strong opinion and rarely wrong. You wouldn't argue with him on a 'migraine day'. In a review of so called 'modellers lathes' he stated on the subject of tools and as near as I can remember 'Vernier calipers should be restricted to those who know when not to use them'. That made me think; now I am learning to use dividers and a rule. He stated a practised engineer could work 'to a thou, though he might not know which thou it is'. One of the problems with calipers is some folk strain them by twisting them on removal from work; and that means you need to try a known test piece before trusting a measurement. Of course in his day, digitals did not exist. Will be interesting to see how you like verniers. My suspicion is they are as good and there is no lingering doubt as to whether the set you are using is reliable at the time. It is worth remembering I am only an amateur. Enjoying your channel. Peter @@themeandrousengineer
I haven't actually tried to fix them, but some epoxy might actually work for a little while. They honestly still move around fine for measuring but they just have a hard time with more finite movements.
@@themeandrousengineer some would say that is going to be an issue of mastering the touch of calipers. I have no clue. I do not use the thumbwheel. it is not an intuitive thing for me eventhough I work in quality. i do not need to sneak up on a reading. I do need to move the jaws in and out to take measurements. Do they not sell replacement parts or offer repair? MSC industrial seems to have a spare parts kit and mitutoyo has a parts list you can buy on their website. just need to know the part number. I understand the principle you are communicating. but a few minutes of google have a feasible answer in my book. not a waste of money, but maybe not work the price for what you get. eh....dichotomies.
I swear by my mitutoyo calipers, I use the switch between absolute / incremental mode mode all the time which helps me be a lot faster when machining. I would never go back to a dial or vernier caliper for any kind of serious work. I have dropped my mitutoyo’s on occasion but they haven’t broken so far. If they were to break I’d buy another pair in a heartbeat. It measures significantly better than any other calipers I’ve ever used, including the swiss TESA brand. It gives me measurements I can trust which makes my work higher in quality. If it gets crunchy, then just wipe the rail clean and you’re done. No fragile mechanism to fool around with when it gets dirty. In my opinion dial calipers are nice to have in an inspection room where they are kept safe from dirt and get dropped less. Sorry, rant over
Hey, no worries about the rant. People are passionate about their calipers (so much so, that I worried about making this video). I definitely haven't blacklisted Mitutoyo digital calipers from ever using again. Like I said in the video, I'm just disappointed in them. I think if I bought another pair I might just be careful which model I was looking at to make sure the thumb wheel wouldn't be an issue. Thank you very much for watching and commenting.
One thing i like about the digital is the ability to measure something. Set it to zero and immediately measure liked items to determine if they are within the same tolerances.
That’s a great point for the use of digital calipers. After all these discussions, I’m definitely leaning on having a set of all three types of calipers just because. Digital has a lot of uses like your point, the easy conversion to metric if you’re in an imperial zone, and the coolant abuse they can take.
How well built a tool is matters to me a lot. And it's frustrating to discover after purchase that the manufacturer has cut corners you didn't know about. But the other thing that really matters to me (at least for expensive tools) is how much the company stands behind their products. Mitutoyo generally has a reputation for making quality tools, and I'd be fascinated to hear their reaction if you call them up and complain about that plastic tab snapping off. I wouldn't be shocked if they'd do right by you, but you never know these days.
In all honesty, I haven't given them the chance to do this, but you may be right. Well built tools matter to me a lot too and even the best manufacturers can have a quality mistake. The real question is whether my problem was a fluke or really common for them to deal with.
I used all Mitutoyo's calipers from 1 basic,.. 2Dials.. and 3 Digimatics. All i can say, i am comfortable at any of these mitutoyos hardened stainless steel, but. Yes.. the plastic build on digimatic calipers on mitutoyo's are the bad side, might be the electronics inside cannot cover by any kinds of metals,. So the engineers decide use crispy plastics😵💫 but yes its works perfectly even drop it and that is the Mitutoyo special, but depends from how many Meters you drop it digimatic😉. If i where on Mitutoyos Engineer.. i will used stretch plastic like engineering plastic maybe ? Well we hope.. i hope the mitutoyo's read these comments.🤪
As a Journeyman tool and die maker/mold maker/ machinist with over 40 years' experience and having used every precision tool from every major manufacturer out there, I can tell you that for the everyday machinist nothing beats coolant resistant digital calipers. You remind me of old school guys when I was an apprentice who found calculators to be insulting, claiming that long-hand with a pencil is better because if you pushed the wrong number on the calculator, you wouldn't know if you made a mistake. I am well versed in using trig to calculate any angles, as well as the two-second calculation of converting back and forth between inch and metric. However, if you have a tool that can do it for you in a faster way with no mistakes it makes no sense to belittle it. As for construction, try using those dial calipers inside or around CNC machines with coolant or oil dripping all over the place. Unless they are rated as waterproof, you could quickly find the dial being damaged. My 8" dial Mitutoyo lasted me for many, many, years and they got kicked around quite a bit. Coolant caused some damage to my dial's face and the occasional gear jump from a metal chip pushed me toward digital and they are great. I'm as pro-American manufacturing as they come, but I'm expected to work as quickly as possible and with little room for mistakes on very expensive precision parts. Because of the type of work that I do, I swear by the coolant resistant digital Mitutoyo caliper. And nothing beats the smoothness of a gearless caliper. If you plan on handling your calipers like a caged monkey, or just want a general-purpose caliper that you plan on throwing in your back pocket or expect to lay all around the shop, then maybe the life expectancy would favor the dial. But at that point why not just buy a pair of SPI or Fowler. You can buy 3-5 of those to every one pair of Starrett. My most recent pair were built about 10 years ago and I have not heard anything lately about quality issues with Mitutoyo. Before the advent of CNC machines, we needed to use many of the specialty tools put out by the big two of those times, Starrett and Brown and Sharpe. But today CNC creates all the angles and radii needed in parts that back in 1980 we had to do on a Bridgeport. Nowadays even specialty cutters are cheap enough to buy that can be added to the CNC process and it eliminates any secondary operations which would have had to done in the past. The point being that Starrett is highly overrated. If someone offers you a pair at a good price, by all means take it, but if don't have a lot of expendable income, don't let anyone shame you for not buying American.
@@lukewatson5345 Wow, You must be one of those people who went to school and never had to read in order to learn. You should be a scientific experiment. Idiot of the day. At least I didn't need a 17 minute video to describe the differences of an instrument with one moving part. I guess it would have taken you more than 17 minutes to read this reply.
@@hav2win It took me a while to get through your reply, and I can't tell if it is a compliment or not...I don't use instructions when crafting my Ikea furniture if that's what you mean...Why did you watch this 17 minute video if you didn't need to watch a 17 minute video? That's like saying you just took a breath, but you didn't need to, you just did it for funzees.
@@LTVoyager I think I can swing the two bucks for a battery here and there. I have all 3 types of calipers and I use the Mitutoyo digital 99% of the time.
One thing that many people forget about, is the possibility of a project going late, or failing, if your measuring equipment fails, and you have no viable backup, and the supplier is closed, or .... I found this out, early, when buying tools with a replacement warranty, but, when they broke, on the job, at a remote site, the warranty didn't buy anything!! Better tools, that*don't need the warranty!*
You’re absolute right about the situations where things can break and cause major setbacks. People rely on these kinds of tools to get things done for their livelihoods. Most don’t seem to honor their warranties any more either. I’ve seen a lot of companies find technicalities to get out of doing the right thing. Mind you, this isn’t Mitutoyo or Starrett. I’ve never made a warranty claim for them.
I think a lot of people are wondering what this means for Starrett. Some buyouts don’t ruin companies but others drive them into the ground while milking them for all they’re worth. We’ll have to sit back and see.
I hate the loss of the etching of smaller graduations on the Mitutoyo, even though digital I still like to see the visual smaller mm or fractional graduations.
GOOD job with this video. Exclusive of inherent differences and what to consider between swing arm and digital calipers in this class I chose Starrett. The tie breaker for me is MADE IN USA and the 3202 120A is. There's simply too much at stake these days and never has it been more obvious.
Thank you! I tend to favor US made products due to the idealistic thoughts of yesteryear that American made is better. I do still think that in certain circumstances these days we still stand out. That being said I feel that Mitutoyo has certain products that they do well just like Starrett does. Their indicators and micrometers are pretty high quality alot of the time. Even Starrett is a pick and choose like with the 120A. It's definitely made in America and they're a hefty set of calipers with the ability to disassemble for cleaning and realignment. It's lesser brother, the 3202-6 is more plastic and subtly do not say American Made on the dial like the 120A's do. You can be a loyal, yet smart, consumer on these things.
There's so many brand, like nsk, shinwa, kanon, insize, mahr, somet, B&S, M&W etc etc but performance of the tools is still depends entirely on the operator, if you abused your tools, use them wrong, drop them, they will break regardless. It's seem that peoples move always from vernier caliper but i still use my 60+ years mitutoyo 12" vernier that grandfather give it to me.. it's outlast the previous owner and yes, it pass calibration tests with flying colors. One thing i know that most modern vernier caliper are not as good as the old one. It's funny to think that with all of these state-of-the-art manufacturing but their product quality are getting worse. Unlike 50s instrument, that practically handmade but somehow having much better finish and quality.
You’re right on a lot of things. It does depend on the user quite a bit and they’re not meant to be dropped even if it can point out flaws in the design. I’m not surprised in the least that older vernier’s are better than new ones. Things used to be made with pride and attentiveness. Now things are made as cheaply and as quickly as possible to maximize profit.
Afaik, B&S no longer manufacturer anything themselves other than maybe there CMM's. Some of it like their dti's are outsourced to an European based company, Interapid in Switzerland I think, but with B&S's logo and are still very good. They were an excellent metrology company, and it's sad they no longer are. I guess the bean counters got there way. Quite a bit though comes out of China and most is no better than any other cheaper off shore tool except it now has the B & S higher price. It depends on how your dial calipers land if you drop them as far as how much damage you'll see. It was my own fault, but I dropped my 12" Mit dial calipers just once on a wooden floor. Exactly how that caused the amount of damage that happened I still can't figure out. The plastic crystal seemed unmarked, but the needle was seriously bent enough in two directions to start seriously dragging on and marking the dial face. And as expected, it jumped a couple of rack teeth which wasn't a problem because that can be reset easy enough. But returning them to Mit for repair and recalibration cost me about half of what a new pair would. I can say they were repaired to a like new condition. After that, I'm real careful how I handle any measuring tool and even where I set them down. Maybe ask Mitutoyo to give you a repair quote to fix those digitals. Who knows, it might be cheaper than you think. But I agree with you 100% about the design and material they chose. Yeah injection molding is cheap with high part numbers. Losing customers usually isn't.
I think many people have a drop story like this. We all know it’s technically our fault and have to accept it. I try not to drop precision instruments too but we all have a bad day at times. That being said, you’re not the first to suggest contacting Mitutoyo. I’ll have to see what a repair would look like
A lot of people I’ve worked with over the years have loved Mitutoyo but I have usually preferred Starrett. I do still think that if you get the right set from Mitutoyo, that they can be good too.
Man, that's sad that they broke in the case. It's really interesting that they broke in the same place because I really do think it is an area in modern calipers that could be improved.
I tend to agree mostly but if Harbor Freight an make a set of crappy calipers for around $20.00 that are reasonably accurate (if your not a machinist) then Mitutoyo and Starrett should be able to make all of there calipers almost perfect for around $100.00, any more than that and the price becomes more like a Rolex and less like a tool. I will say though that my old $120.00 dial gauge 1202-6 Starrett calipers have remained a quality tool and accurate to around .008, and there all metal. They just shouldn't cost $200 +.
It's a very personal choice for what tools to get that work for you. The response to this video is proof of that. Many people are passionate about their tools and will fight you to the end. I really just want what I spend my money on to last indefinitely, which I know is actually unrealistic because all things fail eventually. Everyone should think about the application they need calipers for and spend appropriately. It gets into nitty gritty when you're comparing top brands, but that's ok. The Starrett's I have were around $80 when I bought them 10+ years ago and they work great. I would have a hard time choking on the prices these days.
@@themeandrousengineer I was also thinking that to do unbiased caliper testing you could have someone make up a random stack of gauge blocks and measure those. That way the person with the calipers wouldn't know what the measurement should be yet it would be very easy to determine what the measurement should be.
I have a set on mitutoyos. It’s plus of minus.003”. Calipers get you into the ballpark, but a good set of micrometers gets you home. I don’t trust calipers hardly at all.
Every tool has its place and you just nailed it for what calipers are good for. I love calipers for what they are meant for but micrometers are definitely a step up for precision.
@@tomkennedy7971 I don't think it's the ability to measure more accurately than +/- 0.003 that is the question. I think we're talking more about the level of trust in calipers in general. In reality for me, I'll use calipers for as tight as a +/- 0.001 and when tolerances get into half thousandths, I'll get out the micrometer. All that being said, if you have a job that demands accuracy, I would draw the trust line at +/- 0.003 myself and use a micrometer for any dimension I could. It's all about trust, the ability to reduce error, and the end goal for a part or project.
Accurate measurements are not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of proper technique applied to a properly adjusted and maintained tool. Both tools are capable of +/- .001 accuracy and half that in repeatability when clean, properly adjusted, and proper technique is applied. You can’t blame the tool if you can’t achieve “trust” greater than +/- .003. And if a person’s skill, technique, and trust level is at +/- .003 with calipers, then it’s doubtful those same skills and techniques will be achieving half thousandth accuracy when applied to micrometers. I stand by my original reply. Anyone incapable of repeatedly achieving better than +/- .003 with Mits should be working on their skills, not knocking the tool.
@@tomkennedy7971 Ok, let me start off by saying that I agree with you (for the most part). Having the proper knowledge and skill is paramount to making good parts within correct tolerances. This helps your accuracy with the tools you are using, most definitely. In my time being a machinist and working around machinists, many around me have had heated discussions about the "right" way to do things with setups, tool choice, feeds and speeds, best G-code choices, operational order...etc. I have to say that after listening to these conversations for over 15 years that they were all right in some way. Some would be staunchly in the idea that faster was better and more efficient, however others would prefer to have a higher quality finish making their part take longer. Now you may have an employer that is harping on you for production numbers so in that case faster IS better, but most of the time all of these choices come down to preference. If @donlddepew9605 wants to use micrometers when tolerancing is under 0.003" and a good part is made, isn't that the important thing? I absolutely know that everyone who has laid hands on a lathe or mill has their own way of doing things that works for them. If you can accomplish your job in your own way within the constraints of your print, part and employer, does it really matter how you get there?
Your comparing dial calipers to digital, why? Maybe you should compare mitutoyo dial calipers to your starrett dial calipers. You would think a manufacturing engineer would understand this
You know, you're not wrong. It is a rather apples to oranges comparison, but we all have a choice of digital vs dial vs verneir when looking at calipers. It is more intended to be a durability comparison. Both measure the same type of measurements, but I viewed the construction of my Starrett dial calipers to be superior, at least for my use (some here have smartly commented that dials aren't good in harsh environments). At some point, I would like to do several comparisons like different brands' older calipers vs newer models and like you suggested, comparing dial calipers from Mitutoyo to Starrett.
I have 3 dead Sterrets, dig lasted 6 months if that, the dialed ones I cant get parts for. I can at least get parts for the Mitutoyos. Heck my HF digitals are 10 years old.
That's a shame about Starrett failing you 3 times. What Starrett model were you using and in what environment? That's some great info that Mitutoyo actually sells parts to fix your calipers. I haven't ever tried to get parts from any of them because by the time most calipers I see that are used in production need fixing, they are beaten to a pulp and better off replaced.
I hate to say this but many cheap calipers are very good. I bought a Chinese one in the early 1980s that are still fine today. I’m not saying that it doesn’t pay to buy expensive ines. I have three Tesa B&S models, two digital. I was looking to buy a Starrett digital model recently, and I thought, well, I should try to buy a USA built one this time. But their digital models, despite being very expensive, are made in China. Look, if you drop calipers and they hit at certain stress points, no matter how expensive, no matter how well made, they are going to break. That’s particularly true if you drop them on a concrete floor. These are all delicate instruments, they are not made to be dropped. If you drop it and it doesn’t break, then likely they are now not accurate. Why don’t you drop your Starrett? Instead of speculating, do the test. And not on a rubber mat.I don’t care about the boxes, because they’re a waste of space in the draw. I put them somewhere out of the way in case I ever give mine away. I also do woodworking, and if I worked to worse than a 128th of an inch I would redo it. A really good joint is made to a couple of though at worst. There is no reason with woodworking that your work should be much less accurate than metal working.
No shame in using the cheapies if they work well for what you're doing. I wouldn't mind having a pair of cheap calipers in my shop to use when I don't want to get the "nice" ones out. I will concede that I shouldn't have dropped them in the first place. That's for sure. If I were in the business of true comparisons and actually had disposable income, I could drop my Starret's and compare how they do when dropped on a concrete floor. Maybe if I actually start getting paid for my UA-cam efforts... If I'm being honest, I use calipers for my wood working too. I can't turn off the machinist mentality even though it doesn't always require it. The joints you speak of definitely benefit from precision. I'm just not going to push people to be super precise when they can get by without worrying about it as much.
Sorry, marked thumb down. You raise a good point in respect to the fragility of plastic cases, but as you also stated, the reason why it's plastic is because it's not going to be impacted (pun intended) by ingress of liquids and dust. As you pointed out, dropping the Starrett would have potentially damaged them too. Yes tools should be designed well, and I would have to agree with you that the use of a metal sub-frame to pinion the thumb-wheel would be better (if more expensive) but they didn't design it to be abused. I'm afraid I don't agree with your conclusion that this was engineered to fail. I was expecting a review and comparison of these tools, but outside of the box comparison, it never happened. You did mentioned the Mitutoyo breakage at least seven times, however. (4:20, 6:28, 6:55, 8:10, 10:21, 12:10, 13:26). I think you got really unlucky with your experience, and aside from the fact that the wheel came off, a fairly simple repair lets face it, the tool itself is still perfectly usable. The Mitutoyo still works, it's not crap! You clearly love the analogue experience, and I can't fault you there. My vernier callipers (old school, not even a dial) are my go-to every time for the every-day, and they get a lot of use, and abuse, as a result. My digital callipers are the ones I get out for the accuracy, clarity, features (less math involved!) and ease of use, however: Metric to Imperial conversion, just push a button. Relative measurement, i.e. measuring the size difference between two objects, just push a button. It offers direct, unambiguous measurement. I don't need to read the vernier scale to get the result I want, a process that I've been known to mess up from time to time. From a workflow perspective, the digital tool is, for me, much, much faster to use. Digital Con's? Needs a battery, though I've had this set for nearly two years and it's still got the original. I think it was supplied with a spare, but I've no idea where that is. It would be really good to see/hear your views of the digital vs dial calliper experience on the day job, and move on from how pissed off you obviously are that you dropped them and they're damaged as a result.
First off, thank you for the feedback on the video. It's not easy to hear criticism about things you've made but this type of well thought out response does give me something to ponder in order to make my channel/videos better, so in the end I appreciate it. I never know how to respond to the obviously passionate group that this video speaks to. I'll have to make myself more clear about my opinions for things in the future, but I never said Mitutoyo was crap. I said I was disappointed in them because I know they are a good company. I use indicators, calipers, and micrometers from them almost daily and they get the job done excellently most of the time. My issue wasn't even in the overall material choice of "plastic" for the thumbwheel. This plastic had a brittle fracture which says that something was wrong with the material itself. Now, I make assumptions here and that could be my downfall, but companies make choices on materials like this every day, usually the most effective material for the least cost. These days, and honestly most manufacturers since the 80's, companies tend to teeter the line of choosing lesser cost over quality to maximize profit. I just think Mitutoyo chose a sub par plastic or something went wrong in their injection molding process. I may have been very unlucky, but I have heard other commenters who said the exact same thing happened to them too. Also, there is another comment from @loodwich who says he is a materials expert. He stated that there are fillers that are added to plastics to reduce cost during production. The side effect of these additives? Brittleness. I'm not saying I'm right, but we should at least consider the possibility. No, these were not made to be abused, but they don't seem to be made to last either. I will admit, if companies made things the way I prefer, no one would ever make any money because products would be as robust as possible with the intent to last forever. Capitalism would fail and jobs would be lost, but the landfills would be empty and when you bought something it would last forever or at least be maintainable/repairable. I took a few days to reflect upon your pissed off comment at the end and you're right that I am, but not about what. I'm not mad that MY calipers were broken, they can be fixed as you said. I'm mad that poor choices are made with products all the time in the vein to make another dollar for every widget sold. It's not about Mitutoyo, it's about the choices manufacturers make that effect us in our everyday. I psychoanalyzed myself and I can pinpoint when I first was angry about this problem. In the 80's at first my Transformers were made of metal (silly example but true). You could run over them with a truck and they could potentially survive. As the next generations of those toys came out, more and more components were plastic. I had some break on me because I was a kid and I was just simply playing. I didn't know how to verbalize it then, but I noticed that the quality was going down in the toys I had. It was a noticeable difference. I have been admittedly biased against plastic ever since. Since being a machinist and then becoming an engineer, I have learned that there are grades of plastic and different choices that are quite durable. There are also design choices that can encourage breakage with stress points. I still think it is worth at least considering how these calipers can be better and what their current flaws may be. Maybe I should put a question mark in my title, "Engineered to Fail?". It sparks a debate that I think we should have about all the things we buy.
For me my vintage Japanese NSK calipers and mic is my favorite used to work in a shop that made carbide tools before I left I cover their mic in carbide dust before I got canned lol that destroyed the mic
I’ve never used NSK before. I had to look them up and all I saw were a bunch of vintage calipers for sale like on eBay. I assume you can’t get them anymore? Are they the same company that makes bearings and ball screws too?
@themeandrousengineer yeah I don't know much about their new stuff, but their vintage stuff is soild a company imports nsk mic and caliper under the Fowler name not NSK
Is this just a rant because you dropped your calipers? Glue the plastic back together and move on. I'd use those mitutoyo's before those Starrett's any day, and if you paid $260 for a set Starrett 1202's you paid WAY too much. If you're a Starrett guy, after you use a set of 120's nothing else matters. In the end, this isn't a Mitutoyo problem.
Man, you do like to stir the pot don't you.... To answer your question about it being a rant, the answer is partly yes and mostly no. Truly it's not even a Starrett vs Mitutoyo argument either, although it appears to be. This is a widescale manufacturing issue that I've seen through many companies and industries that I've bought products from and I know you've noticed it too. Products that were once robust will have components that are more cheaply made so that companies can save or make more money. Saving or making more money isn't a sin for business, but when it compromises the quality of their products, especially compared to excellent past reputation like Mitutoyo, it is definitely bad. In the beginning of these choices, it hurts the consumer and in the end it hurts those companies because people won't buy from them anymore. Trust me, I'm wary about some models of Starrett calipers as well. The replacement for the Starrett 1202's (which, by the way, I paid $80 for in 2011) now have a plastic enclosure as well. I paid $260 for the digital Mitutoyo's that I talk about in the video which obviously have brittle plastic components. I think the point isn't which brand, but be careful what you buy from every brand. I'm not a Starrett or Mitutoyo guy really, I just like well made tools that are durable and last.
I can read verniers but haven’t used them much. Usually they’re the calipers left put away because a lot of people can’t read them. I can see them being a great reliable and cost effective choice.
Another alternative to digital is to buy a two dial calipers - one imperial and the second metric. Have you asked your dealer, or Mitutoyo directly, if they have a replacement part available?
I have considered doing this with two dial calipers, but as often as it comes up here in the US, I can just calculate the conversion. That's a decent idea about trying the dealer. I got them through MSC and they might know of something.
@@akierum Sounds like some good advice but I don’t know if I can even get it here in the US. I did a quick search and it looks to be banned. I did find some others in Reddit saying exactly the same thing about it fusing plastic well.
ive always picked "bang for the buck" solves a lot of issues you bring up. ue, buy to the point where getting an additional 10% performance / quality will cost you twice as much. same goes for picking gf's
I think you have there a Mitutoyo knock off. I have a Mitutoyo I got for $135 and they look nothing like that and are made very well. There is a a youtube on how to tell the fakes you might want to check.
You may not have heard of 'Moore and Wright', back in the day every British machinist would have had measuring tools made by M&W set up in WW2.........point being I bought a 160mm electronic calipers 10 years ago and they're still going strong.................Sadly their Sheffield factory has long gone and replaced by a shopping supermarket, f*cking disgrace!
Planned obsolescence irks me to no end. I understand it and get that it might very well be responsible for the economy of excess and first world luxury, but it's also a serious pain to watch tools and products you've bought in years past become worse and worse, making you feel like a fool for ever recommending them or speaking highly of them if someone does happen to take your word and purchase after intentionally awful redesigns.
It's a difficult market to find any quality products these days. Even if a guy named Bob says he had a great set of calipers, tires, what have you, there's no telling if the quality is consistent either. You could get the exact same thing and it could go straight in the garbage. I used to be able to trust reviews left from people like on Amazon, but even that is spammed with inconsistent feedback. I can't tell if they are paid reviews, real people who had problems, or someone who simply doesn't understand what a quality product is. I understand that planned obsolescence may be necessary for our system to continue to work, but I would prefer a middle ground instead of worthless products you can't always trust.
I can’t blame you for that. I never really intended the video to be a dial vs digital or even a Starrett vs Mitutoyo argument. It was really just comparing construction/design methods. I did mean to call out Mitutoyo on a sub par design but I would definitely buy other things from them.
Once your caliper has dropped it immediately becomes wrthless as an arbitrary measuring tool so it must go either to a proper checks/repair/calibration service or in the rubbish bin straight away.
That's a fair assessment. I haven't used the Mitutoyo's that broke for anything production related since dropping them. To their credit, I think they are still quite accurate.
I hope that never happens but if it does I certainly will. I have nothing against digital calipers and I think they’re a tool that every serious maker should consider having. I just want things to last a long time when you spend a hefty amount of money on them.
I’ve heard this from a few people. Truly sad to see happen. They had already begun to farm out lesser level calipers to China but this probably spells doom.
You are showing the truth in all your videos... I have a Ph.D. in materials, plastics and metals... So I can say plastic is not necessarily bad, depending on the plastic, and the process could be better than metals. But for the video, I think the hook is PE (good one) but with 30-40% of calcium carbonate (much cheaper than plastic)... so the final result is a cheaper plastic, around 30-35% lower cost, but brittle on the impact.
I'm still working on my bias against plastics, LDPE, HDPE, Delrin, Polycarbonate...etc. I've seen all of these used in real applications that these types of materials shine and do extremely well. It's mostly the injection molded plastics I see in consumer grade products that really bother me. I'm assuming you're saying that they add calcium carbonate into the PE in order to save money? Here it was I thought they had only switched from metal housing to a plastic in order to save money. Now it sounds like they're diluting the efficacy of the PE to save even more. This illustrates the cost savings point I have in the video about manufacturers always having to make things more efficiently, cheaper, or faster to increase/maintain profits. It's sad really. Thank you for commenting on these videos. It's nice to know that people are enjoying them.
@@themeandrousengineer I had the same bias when I started my Ph.D. but I found books about material and design by Michael F. Ashby, and reading them changed my viewpoint, also working with metals and polymers for years, and I am still in the laboratory. The problem with the metals is that the tools to make the shape is expensive, the defects in the shape are higher, and very difficult to reprocess all the scrap material, you will need temperatures around 700 to 1600°C. You could reprocess all the polymer at only 200°C and only need an injector and mold to make thousands of parts. and are more easily maintained. The price of 1 kg of plastic is around 2 USD, but calcium carbonate is only 0,35USD per kilogram. PE could be filled until 50-60% in weight, so the material cost is reduced a lot... the problem is, as you show, the polymer part is brittle on impact. In several of my research, I use additives to increase the mechanical properties of plastics or increase the elasticity. Still, if this material is more expensive than polymer filled with inorganic compounds, the companies don't want it. I could talk about those examples for hours, but you know where we will finish.
That’s fascinating that you can include additives for the polymers that will either enhance or detract from its properties. I didn’t know that you could add to them at all. It makes a lot more sense to me as to why products fail that are made from polymers. It’s not the plastic itself but probably the material choices to save money. I really hate that money dictates these things but I understand it at the same time.
I have at least 8 different digital calipers. Starrett, Mitutoyo, Tesa, and Mahr. Starrett are the worst, Mitutoyo the best. If you drop them, any of them, they need to go into the trash.
That's quite a collection. Admittedly I haven't used Starrett digitals due to my favoritism for the mechanical versions so I can't really have an opinion one way or the other.
I would not place money on a bet that Mitutoyo dial calipers are worth more than a cheap Chinese dial caliper......the Mitutoyo dial caliper I have has had many needle moves off of the 12 o'clock position mainly probably due to dirt in the rack or rapid moves that made the pinion hop over a tooth or two......... that in the end drove me to getting a cheap Chinees one for A$24 and so far it has functioned as good as you would want. Just saying that a well-known brand is better than one costing less is not a valid statement.......the Chinese know how to make tools.
You’re not the first one to say that here. I’ll have to check out some cheaper calipers and see what I think. I have seen cheaper ones that are terrible in every sense of the word but since there are multiple people here saying the same thing I’ll have to be open minded. This is some great stuff with everyone sharing information on their own experiences. It’s a wealth of knowledge that I and everyone else can benefit from. If there are some cheap micrometers out there I would be willing to give those a try too.
@@themeandrousengineer Well, at the same time I'm a big fan of the digital calipers but one thing detracts from them and that is the battery going flat so quick..........when I want to use the digi one and the display flickers it's a pain to keep having to replace the battery........I have a plan to fit a small super capacitor to the battery compartment or on the back and a stand to put the caliper on to recharge between use as the circuitry takes very little power etc but at the moment it's wishful thinking.
The mitu cases with the live hinge/flexure is one of the worst case Ive ever had. Case hinges failed and the case has way too loose a fit for housing a precision instrument. Calipers still going on the first battery 5 years later. Daily drivers as well. Starrett 120a are also reliable but being dial I reach for them less. I’m not so sure the intended topic of this video is accurate. Build quality changes, but better spare parts availability would’ve save everyone the time to watch this video, and the poster would’ve saved time “discussing” minutiae. Bottom line is if you’re working in the boundary between clearance, slip/ running, and interference fits you’re asking for bad days if you’re using a slide caliper. This is micrometer territory. Get a cheap caliper and a good set of mics. Move on.
Cool, I wonder if there's a caliper that has tungsten carbide or harder jaw edge (replaceable even like pliers in high-end multi-tool pliers) coz' it's more accurate to just scratch the material or mark it by pressing the caliper rather than marking with a pencil. It'd also be faster using the caliper jaw to scratch the material if only General (an all-metal amazing looking, precise too digital caliper brand, Mitutoyo, Starrett & Browne & Sharpe made caliper with very hard tips. God bless. Revelation 21:4
That's a cool idea to use carbide inserts for calipers. You would have to be careful about dropping those too since the carbide is a little more brittle than hardened steel. I love using my calipers to scribe in measurements on materials. I've done that for years and they seem to be pretty resistant to most materials I've commonly worked with. You start getting into harder metals it may get a little sketchy but I think those still work too.
Get a set of hermaphrodite dividers that can be set with a steel rule for doing layouts and marking. This avoids having the shop foreman dope slapping you for misusing your calipers.
@@themeandrousengineer Yup, that's the dream of everyone who uses the amazing Vernier Caliper, to be able to scratch surfaces with it without breaking the precision (way more precise than marking). I usually have to transfer the measurement onto a broken digital Browne & Sharp caliper (I hope I can revive and fix it) which is the one I use to scratch the surface (or load the tip w/ pencil graphite or white pen or marker then mark the gaff tape, taped onto the metal but a scratch on the surface is better- no risk of erasing the mark and it's faster, no need to clean the jaws w/ eraser or solvent. I highly recommend using gaff tape or gaffer's tape, in different colors for color coding- it's expensive but it's highly reusable and it doesn't leave a residue similar to painter's tape if painter's tape is too thin). I did email and suggest this to all big Vernier caliper makers, especially Mitutoyo & Starrett (and also a not so main brand, the General brand, coz' they have this stylish 100% all-metal digital caliper I use). they think about making it and make a caliper that can scratch surfaces and have a built ink reservoir in the jaws without breaking the precision. God bless.
@@SevenDeMagnus I’ll keep that in mind about the gaffer’s tape. That stuff looks great for more than just marking projects. I’m assuming that if you emailed those companies no one replied? It would be interesting if they actually did.
@@themeandrousengineer oh I wasn’t accusing you of fakery. The fake mitutoyo calipers are all over the place. I got a fake pair from Amazon for $169. I ended up buying a genuine pair and the most sure fire way to know if you have a real set vs fake is by testing the battery draw. Mitutoyo has patented battery technology where the unit only draws 1mA when off and only around 5 when on, where the knockoffs drew about 19mA off and 26mA when on.
@@chadcoady9025 Ah, I understand now. I’ll have to test the power draw but these were ordered through MSC Industrial so I would hope they provide the legit versions. I still wish you were right about them being fakes even in the new context. That’s a very interesting test to make sure you have the real thing.
Well, that was quite a biased "comparison" don't you think so? Just because one little piece of plastic broke is not a reason to praise the dial calipers.
I praise the material choices of the dial calipers, not really the fact that they are dial. To be clear, I still like the Mitutoyo calipers and I feel like I said it in the video that they were otherwise good quality. If I were shown a version of digital calipers that had a metal hook holding the thumbwheel, then I would be very impressed. I am admittedly biased towards the set of calipers that has been with me over 10 years, which just happen to be a set of Starrett dial calipers.
Ever heard of a drop indicator? I assume not. That is an indicator that indicates the magnitude of a drop (Hence the name), that the NYT named as the most precision tool of 2017. IDK about you, but if the most precise measuring tool is able to be dropped, I am sure these calipers should be designed to be dropped in the same manner....Also cats are lame and wizards are nerdy.
@@PowerfulWizard first off, that was rude. As a wizard you should know that "please" and "thank you" are the magic words. Secondly, I have a few magic tools myself, one of them allows me to hold all of the knowledge of the world in my fingertips. Laymen call it google, but I call it google. This google has revealed to me that a drop indicator is actually a thing, which means there was no need for your rudeness in the first place. It has also revealed to me that I am not a fool. If you are willing to sell your soul to targeted advertising, I believe even a level 1 D&D player (such as yourself) can entice the magical being to reveal these truths to you as well.
My choice goes to the vernier one..the battery will be dead when you need them, and the rack will get a chip in it and will be annoying as all hell..learn to read the vernier scale..
All good points. I've never owned a vernier pair, but I may just get a set to have. Everybody's responses tell me more and more that calipers are a very personal choice for how you get your work done. It's kind of fascinating.
I have never even heard of this brand and I had a hard time even finding it on the internet. Being Swiss I’m sure they are excellent. Are these an older brand that had popularity a while ago or just something not known in the US much?
@@themeandrousengineer I was a tool grinder for 25 years. A couple of the old guys had Etalon mics, calipers, height gages, ball gages, etc. As they retired out, they gave some away. I got a dial caliper that I used for another 15 years until 2001. When I saw this video, I checked around for Etalon. They're still in business but I couldn't determine of they still made bench tools. Most likely out sourced well before now. I found that all their stuff was just as good or better than Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, or Mitutoyo. I have alot of the latter still. Mitutoyo is superb. So is Etalon. We had Swiss and Japanese machine tools in the shop which were also very well made. The old centerless grinder was a vintage Cincinnatti, and we had one large Universal made by Cincinnatti as well. Good stuff from the Golden Age of American machine tools, when even your radial arm saw from DeWalt was a masterpiece of precision.
Believe it or not I agree with your Rule No 1, minus the parenthetical. To be clear, I don't blame Mitutoyo for my dropping the calipers. It's all me for dropping them. I still think it's worth questioning the stress points of their design and the composition of their plastics. Maybe the title of the video should be "Engineered to Last?" At my work we have several of these same Mitutoyo digital coolant resistant calipers and bought them less than a year ago. Although the measurements are still great, the cases and surfaces are very easily beaten and worn. None of them have had the thumbwheel broken off like mine, but these were definitely not made to last. Currently the 6" versions of these are $252.90 on MSC. Let me ask you this.... If you spend that much money on something, wouldn't you expect them to be more durable than "lesser" calipers? Sure, you might take better care of your tools. I can make a Faberge egg last forever and always wear white gloves, only take it out for special occasions. Machinists and engineers are hard working people. Their tools should be made to last. People drop things sometimes and although it may be their fault, I still feel like older Mitutoyo tooling would have shrugged it off with barely a dent, spit in my face, and said "Is that all you got?"
After all of the comments on these videos, I may get a set of verniers myself! In the end, I'll probably be a hoarder and have all three just for a whimsical choice in the shop. In my heart I just love tools, so each has their different value.
Although I feel the construction is pretty good, the 1202A's that I use in the video are most certainly Chinese. The 120A's that you can buy at least claim they are made in USA and say "American Made" on the dial. All I was really saying is that the construction method was better than a plastic shell for durability. Although usually derogatory, Chinese manufacturing has surprised me with the quality they can be capable of in recent years. I would still prefer American made, but I'm not really sure that means what it used to either.
I’ve seen it kind of both ways. For the lesser/cheaper models like the 3202 the quality is going down. For the 120’s which are definitely more expensive, they seem to be pretty good still. I use them at work and quality seems decent. The black ring around the dial is a plastic which kinda feels a little cheaper but overall they’re pretty solid. Honestly I think all products go down in quality over time. I feel like there are examples of mitutoyo doing this as well just like in the video.
You're right, the ones on the video are China made. I've had biases in the past about the quality of Chinese manufacturing, but I feel like I've noticed that their standards have gotten higher over the years. I feel like I've seen some actually decent caliber Harbor Freight tools in more recent years (with discretion). That being said, Starrett definitely has differing levels of quality depending on how much you spend. My full metal 1202's aren't even being made any more and have been replaced with a plastic casing in recent years. If you spend more you can get the 120A's which are all metal and are made in the USA. I took a look at verniers and you're definitely right, if I bought some they would be more affordable and all metal. Mitutoyo's would most certainly all be made in Japan, so that's a win for them. I think both of these brands have the tiers of quality based on how much you spend, but the verniers could be nice. I still think Mitutoyo has some potential quality issues in the calipers from the video, if only slight. Considering I spent a lot of money on those, logically they should be quality, but the brand, the amount of money spent or the country of origin might not mean as much we all want it to.
My old man passed away 3 years ago and I got a lot of his tools and such. I have all my own stuff already since it’s what I do for a living but I still took it because using his tool box and tools remind me of when I was younger. I was finally going through and getting rid of stuff (junk and broken stuff) when I stumbled upon a box that said on it Mitutoyo and I remember this box from when I was a kid but never opened it. I opened it and saw very well kept calipers inside but I already have a set of digital calipers and honestly I’m no engineer so I don’t really know caliper brands. I just put them in storage after debating to either toss em or sell em for like 20$ (don’t judge me I had no idea 😂) my Pittsburgh calipers shit the bed finally and I was about to go buy another pair when I remembered that box I put up. I pulled em out and realized all the instructions are in Japanese and they seemed unbelievably well made and these things are atleast 30 years old. I looked em up….I’ve had a pair of $250 calipers that I was thinking about tossing 😑 all because “I already have a digital set why would I use a dial set?” Now I understand why people are so hesitate to get rid of stuff and become hoarders haha
First off, sorry about your dad. Inheriting good tools is probably the only perk of that situation. I really do think that once you feel what quality is like, you will appreciate it and start looking for it. There is a real debate on this video for who likes what brand and what style of calipers, but it truly is a really personal decision. In the end, you're the one making parts. You're responsible for what you make and how you get it done, so use something you trust.
I have 6-8 calipers. I bought a starret dial caliper and discovered they are now made in Brazil, and that one broke right away. I use it for scribing sheet metal now. My Mitutoyos have been flawless. Also have some brown and sharpe that are excellent.
I haven't heard about the Starretts being made in Brazil, but I have heard of their lower tier being made in China. I have my biases against China's manufacturing practices in the past, but the Starrett's I have are made there and the construction is pretty decent. Starret's upper tier which cost close to $300 are made in USA, but I'm not really sure how much that means anymore either. Truthfully, I think every company has their weak products sometimes. It doesn't mean they completely suck, but they had a bad design, or cut too much cost on a product line. Good companies recover from mistakes. I still think Mitutoyo is a good company, they just didn't make the calipers I had bulletproof like they usually are able to do. I'm sorry you had some bad luck with the set you bought. I actually like hearing the problems people have had with ANY brand. It's a nice survey of what works and doesn't. I would definitely go with some Brown and Sharpe at some point too.
@@themeandrousengineer Well I have my opinion on Chinese tools and it is that they could make perfect quality tools... but their ball and roller bearings are still lousy... and it is my impression that they have their own "philosophy" in regards to "Quality Control": They just don't take their defective lots out from production, they keep every bad lot, and carefully and gradually put every defective item into a shipping box or container, so that it goes to sale mixed with 999 of "good" items, and not a single unit is ever wasted or reworked, and ends up on an unsuspecting consumer, and the Chinese just don't care!
Wanted to add- on the Starrett 120A models; they have 4 screws on the face plate, you can remove those and clock the entire needle to point at the 12 o'clock position if they ever get bumped out of alignment. an extremely easy process.
That’s a great feature for those. Mine if I were to drop them or abuse them somehow I wouldn’t be able to fix the alignment for the dial.
Actual comparison starts at 5:32 if you do not want to hear blah, blah, blah.
Blah blah blah.
my brown and sharp dial caliper has served me well for the last 35 years. I use them almost every day.
That’s awesome. I have heard stories about older tools from Brown and Sharp lasting forever. One of my machining jobs a decade ago had some on hand to use for larger sizes. They were some heavy duty calipers and felt solid yet smooth in their movement. I have heard conflicting stories as to whether their quality is still the same these days. I hope those stories are wrong.
I used Mitutoyo dial calipers with the inside and outside measuring faces carbide tipped as my go-to calipers. My main measuring tool was a Brown and Sharp 0-1” micrometer. I used the first one so much that I rubbed the numbers off the thimble. I changed jobs before I wore out the second set.
Nice. Was this pretty recent or when did you have these calipers?
Thank you for your video. Following your link to the MSC Mitutoyo product, the third thumbnail down on the left side makes it appear that spare parts are available to replace your broken thumb wheel hook. You need part No. 06AEY270.
I bought a Mitutoyo 505-637-66 dial caliper in 1977. I paid $65 dollars for it, which was a hunk of change for a poor college student. I used it daily until retiring a few years ago. I believe it's a better product than is available today. Currently, I'm looking to buy a metric version of the same thing, as I prefer dial calipers to digital. Batteries, and all that. But then, I still wear mechanical wrist watches. I don't find much to choose from in the way of metric dial calipers. The Starret metric caliper does 2 mm per revolution and is graduated in 2mm tick marks. I want 1 mm per revolution, and 1mm tick marks. Mitutoyo makes one, but it doesn't seem to be as nicely made as my beautiful 47 year-old one. So I may end up with digital. UGH!
Maybe I'm just inept, but I can't find anybody who stocks Brown & Sharpe. Does B&S still exist?
There are definitely spare parts available for the calipers. I've tracked down that same part no and I may have a follow up video at some point for repairing them. Thank you for the info!
I'm admittedly a little stuck in the past on my tooling choices. I too appreciate a mechanical watch, but I try really hard to appreciate that quartz watches are still precise and keep ticking forever as long as they have a good battery. I think that quality has diminished from the old days to mitigate costs and the mighty dollar speaks louder than any of us, so here we are.
Brown and Sharp still exists but they seem to be under or part of the the name Tesa now. If you search Tesa Brown and Sharpe you'll get some results. I haven't tried any of their stuff since that name change. They used to be quite good before that though.
If you work with calipers daily, digital is great, but they use batteries and if you use them only infrequently, well…you know what happens when batteries leak, plus of course they will be flat when you most need them and you can’t always get those button cells locally….So for the infrequent user I’d recommend dial calipers.
In regards to "button type" cells: just buy BETTER ones, instead of generic ones... I always buy more expensive Swiss made "Renata" brand button batteries, or authentic "Sony" ones in a pinch, and had never one to leak in at least the 26 years I have had my excellent 8" Mitutoyo Digimatic caliper.
But I avoid shitty "Duracells" and chinese Radio-Shack ones as the plague...
"Duracell: Guaranteed to leak!"
I remember when Duracells were the brand to go... but greedy and stoopid American CEOs transformed that previous excellent brand into sh*t!, just like Champion sparkplugs, Boeing airliners, Crapsman tools, and soon Intel chips...
I've used Brown and Sharpe for decades. I like the black face dial calipers. Really all of my tools are Brown and Sharpe. Calipers, indicators, micrometers. Trust them all.
I’ve always heard good things about them. I’ve used some calipers that seemed pretty consistent. Are the ones you have older or within the last several years? I saw that they were bought out by TESA in 2001 but a corporate takeover could go several ways.
@@themeandrousengineer l think l bought them in the early 90's. I've been a Tool and Die maker for a very long time. Most of the stuff l do requires indicators, gauge blocks, hight master stuff like that. I usually run surface grinders and EDM but I do like to jump on a mill sometimes and that's when l use the calipers and micrometers a lot.
went through a set of starrett digital calipers in less than 6 months, didnt drop them or soak them they just stopped working right. mitutoyo verniers have been dropped, grabbed by an endmill and thrown (should turn off spindle before measuring!), dropped some more, and are still onsize throughout the range. 6 years going strong, tips of the jaws have been ground down a good 0.250" to get rid of the bent tips from dropping
Any brand can make a crappy version in my opinion. Who knows what happened to those Starrett's? Wow, those verniers have been through hell and back!
@@themeandrousengineer very true, many once great brands have gone downhill or made major mistakes in design. like anything else, fair share of gimmicks and corner cutting
Including your own mistake in a review of a precision tool seems insane to me. As a separate anecdote, I have dropped several different sets of Mitutoyo digital calipers (IP67 and standard) and have never had a problem. The speed and flexibility of well-made digital calipers (like Mitutoyo) will always trump analog calipers in the hands of a working machinist. You can do numerous things with them that you either cannot do with dial or would take significantly longer.
I'll always try to admit my mistakes in my videos. I think the truth is important and I hope it's refreshing for people who find my channel. That being said, that's awesome that you've never had any problems with the Mitutoyo's that you've dropped. I would be curious as to the manufacture date and if they're more recent or pre 2020. I've found a lot of products that have seemed to cut costs in ways that degrade quality after the supply issues of 2020, including some couches that continue to hurt my back. I will always be an analogue guy at heart, but I do find digital calipers useful and would actually prefer to have both available, although excessive.
@@thomasstuart6861 Oh yeah, if I'm machining something that has a tolerance of +/- 0.001 or less I'm definitely using a micrometer. Take no chances on that for sure. The sheer fact that they can fail or that even a good set of calipers can flex that much when you apply too much pressure should keep you cautious.
@@thomasstuart6861 If it matters, you're not using calipers. They are the tape measure of the machinist world; great for loose tolerances and quickly checking things, but everything critical needs to be confirmed with something more reliable.
@@thomasstuart6861 Nice. Measuring flatness with optical flats is fun. Probably not using calipers for that one. ;-)
You’re lucky. Everyone I know has dropped and broken calipers (including me!)
I bought my first Mitutoyo in 1985. I finally bought a later version of that caliper just last year. Not exactly the planned obsolescence described here. Before that I was buying a dial caliper on average once a year because they got dropped. The hazards of a mechanical shop though I've always done a fair amount of machining on various projects as well as wood working in my retirement. I've tried less expensive digital calipers like iGaging and while a decent caliper I just didn't like the feel. I would never recommend that someone pay the money for the Starrett name over Mitutoyo. Both are quality tools. Like all tools, it all comes down to personal preference and experience. My experience said replace the Mitutoyo with a Mitutoyo. Now I'm going to have to go and compare the old one to the replacement. BTW the old one got replaced because after 35 years the battery cover broke.
I would be interested how the 1985 version compares to the new one for sure. You have a lot of truth in what you're saying. Calipers will never last forever, but a run from 1985 is pretty good. I wouldn't actually advise someone to buy an expensive caliper if it doesn't work for them either. I just know what I have liked over the years and that touches on the main point you made. Calipers are a personal choice. As this video has demonstrated with the feedback I've received, people are very passionate about their measuring equipment.
I’ve been using my Fowler Sylvac III digital calipers for about 12 years and they are still very accurate. I use them daily as a machinist. They were recommended from our tool and die inspector.
Nice to know a good caliper recommendation. I’ve seen and used Fowler’s before but they haven’t come up much in my area. People are pretty devoted to the two here in the video and then you hear a lot about the older companies that have been lost or lost quality. One look at Fowler and you can tell they’re well made and being Swiss is a reputational plus as well.
I’ve used the same set of Mitutoyos for over 15 years. Never dropped them yet… I also have Starrett’s. Both are excellent but the digital ones are far faster to use.
CNC operator here : DON'T buy Mitutoyo Digital calipers new or secondhand. There's lots of fakes out there, and right now it's a really bad time. Some fakes people are charging a price where it's obvious it's fake but other fakes people are charging the full retail price and it's kinda difficult and unclear to tell them apart. . . HOWEVER, I daily and absolutely love their dial calipers. Japanese made Mitutoyo dial calipers are awesome, just as awesome as the American made Starrett's. Plus I haven't seen any fakes of those yet.
Good advice. I do still think that if you buy Mitutoyo from industrial suppliers that you can be confident about the authenticity. Like from MSC, McMaster Carr, or Grainger. Maybe even an authorized supplier. Just not on Amazon or eBay.
I bought a Mitutoyo caliber in 1977 and they have preformed perfectly. As it happens I bought nice Starrett 120 caliber for $20.00 today. No plastic in either.
I would worry less about the older calipers, but you can still get some high quality ones from both Starrett and Mitutoyo today. You just gotta be careful which one you choose. I find myself wondering where you got some Starretts for $20? Thanks for watching!
Being old enough to remember when people had things repaired, but not being a machinist, I wondered whether you could have your Mitutoyo calipers repaired. Rather than just ask here, I did a tiny amount of research and found Mitutoyo's repair website (it's any easy find). Not only do they seem to repair and calibrate their products, but their website form supplies the Absolute series of calipers as a default for one of the imput fields. Perhaps you might want to make an inquiry (and share the results)? Or not.
Oh I’m definitely old enough to remember when people had things repaired. I long for those days. The right to repair movement definitely has a point. You’re not the first to suggest contacting mitutoyo. I may just yet give them a chance to fix it.
When I started out just out of trade school my first pair of calipers was a Brown & Sharp vernier caliper. I used them for about ten years or so till the dial type came along and bought another B&S. Eventually needed a 12 inch. I bought a Starrett that time. The vernier was and still is the one I use I like the best because It"s never wrong. And needless to say my vision isn't what it used to be so it now has a magnifier on it. I retired at 62 and still working in my home shop at 75.
After reading several testimonials here from this video, I’m definitely understanding the love for verniers. It still fits within my love for mechanical calipers and has no way for inaccuracy over time besides scarring the rule.
Development engineer here. You're 100% wrt. to use of micrometers instead. At work, I've some (cheap) plastic dial verniers to not scratch carbon. Good enough for 0.03mm, rather light. And some Vogel (made in Germany) for larger parts, though MechEng is not my field.
Awesome video man
Thank you! I appreciate it.
@themeandeousengineer Why did you have to replace your Starrett dial calipers?
I didn't have to replace my personal Starrett dial calipers at all. At work I did replace the digital Mitutoyo's from the video with some Starrett 120-A's. They've been pretty good so far.
In the harshest shop environments the 50 division vernier caliper with a micrometer will take punishment, the dial type gets fouled up. Too bad about the plastic on the Mitutoyo fine adjuster, it would seem the caliper is still useable anyway.
Verniers are getting a lot of votes here in the comments. I’m actually really happy to see that because I’ve previously thought they were fading away and so few people knew how to read them. You’re right about my digitals, they still work ok with the fine adjustment gone. They still measure accurately. It’s more of a nuisance than anything.
@@themeandrousengineer I have not looked into it for years, the government standard for vernier calipers accuracy is .0005" inch per 12", most all manufacturers Mitutoyo, Brown Sharpe, Scherr Tumico, Starrett meets that, at least at one time dial calipers could only meet that up to 12" in length until Mitutoyo came out with a twin beam 24" dial with a mechanical counter because of the design, then digital broke out strong in the 80s. I have vernier calipers up to 48" I once used to set up various types of processing equipment. I think the best deals are on Scherr Tumico, more under the radar than Starrett and Mitutoyo. Verniers, I think they are going to be around in some heavy industry for their durability, some users are really hard on calipers, good subject!
@@deedeeindustrialsuperprecision When I started this channel I wanted it to be a well rounded DIY/maker niche. Measuring seemed like a good transcendental topic for making of all types. Considering how well this video has done (for me so far) I may have to do some more measuring topics over time.
I finally saved up enough money to purchase a Starrett 0-1 digital micrometer.
From day one, it killed the battery every few days, if I left the battery in the instrument. A few months later, I lost one of the segments in the digital display. So I took it back to the local sealer where I bought it, and they sent it in for repair. 6 months later, I finally got word from my local Starrett dealer that this very expensive digital micrometer was not repairable, and they couldn't help me.
The Starrett dealer, suggested that I should purchase a Mitutoyo next time!!!
And so I did!!!
I will never purchase another new Starrett tool again, as the quality control and warranty has gone to Hell!!!
My old Starrett tools are wonderful, as are my Starrett swap meet purchases.
But New Starrett stuff is CRAP!!!
My Mitutoyo 6" digital is still working perfectly 40+ years later!!!
I am rather depressed, that the once most excellent brand, Starrett has become a poor quality shadow of it's former self!!!
Tim
Man, I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for sharing the story. It makes me curious when this happened and what model Starrett micrometers they were? Also, were they the "made in China" version or "made in the USA"? I truly think that each manufacturer has their issues these days. Starrett has their cheaper lines that are made in China, yet I have a set of calipers at work that were made in the US which are pretty good.
As a manufacturing engineer, I hate to say it, but I'm not so sure that "made in the USA" is the quality beacon it used to be as a blanket statement. I do think we still have some quality products that are made here, but you pay through the nose for them. Sometimes in your case, it might be possible to pay through the nose for American made yet wind up with a paper weight. This is due to numerous things, but I have a few theories...
We went all digital at work so there are at least 30 Mitutoyo's floating around at any given time. That being said, the failure I see frequently is foreign material jamming into the slide, rending them useless. Battery cover areas break now and again also. I do enjoy the speed at which they can read.. But I dont like how sharp the edges are and how cheap the plastic feels.
We've had some of the Mitutoyo digitals that are coolant proof around my work for almost a year now. They still perform fine, but man, they show wear really quickly. The way ours look it's like people are throwing them on the ground every day. No one had the thumbwheel break like me, but the way the casing wears it still makes me question. I would be curious if another shop has this issue or if it's just people on the floor abusing things. I like having digitals for switching to metric at work for sure.
The plastic tab is sacrificial to cushion and protect the accuracy of important parts.
.... whatcha think. 😁
Hahaha. I actually laughed out loud for this one. Best response so far.
@@themeandrousengineer My suggestion if I was in their R&D department would be to have the piece snap right back on and make it a sales feature, then add $10 for the upgrade.
......wow, and I'm a 66 year old flooring installer.
...that ownes a dial caliper and 4 dial indicators. 😁
i use Mitutoyo manual metal callipers, almost all my mesuring tools since 1980 are Mitutoyo, and chordless tools are Makita
In truth, I’m not totally devoted to one brand or the other. There are certain models from each brand that I think are pretty good. There some exclusions to that like SPI or something similar. Although I am open to other brands of power tools, I am also a big Makita fan.
i ruined several dial calipers when a chip gets in the rack and goes through the mechanism so i switched to the coolant proof absolute mitutoyo. had them for about 5 years nothing broke till one of my employees drove over it with a forklift when it dropped off my golf cart. ( my shop is 200,000 ft) . plus with digital it's super easy to to get actual center to center of 2 holes. you set zero anywhere you want.
I definitely wouldn’t blame Mitutoyo for not standing up to a forklift. I really do think that digitals have their place and are quite useful. Dials have their issues too, depending on where you use them. Mine at this point aren’t subjected to a chip or large particle environment so they work well for me. Really I think if I had my preference, I would have a set of dials, digitals and verniers just for covering bases.
You should be able to fabricate an aluminum hook and thread it with an 0-80 screw and take the unit apart and drill a pass through hole in the plastic to fix those Mitutoyo calipers. Alternatively you might be able to solvent weld that plastic hook back in place with solvent weld for plastic depending upon the plastic they used. Also on the Starrett they make the same basic model 120 made in china and also made in the USA. There is a big difference in cost and quality.
I like your idea about fabricating a hook. Might be a future topic...
That plastic bit would have had some JB Weld on it inside the day... Strange that the design had such a weak point...
They still work ok, despite the annoyance. It didn’t really prevent me from using them, but they should definitely get some JB Weld at some point. Is it really that strange? I’ve really felt things have diminished in quality after 2020 and all the supply chain issues we’ve experienced in the world.
Most interesting; many thanks.
Looking at vernier scaled, in this case Mitutoyo, the slides seem much the same as digital and dial calipers, but without the fragile reading heads and magnetic scales. Even with real abuse it is hard to imagine damaging the accuracy - even the class biro-mechanic would be hard pushed. Rightly or wrongly I don't trust dial and digitals past 2 thou, and verniers are quoted as that anyway. If I have an important measurement I will always use verniers, or past that, a micrometer. Conclusion: verniers are more robust, as usefully accurate, cheaper, and inspire more confidence. What do you think????
You now have 707 subscribers.
Peter
Thank you so much for the subscribe! After all of the feedback from others the verdict still seems skewed to digitals because a lot of people say they hold up under coolant environments. I have never really had that problem since I would either blow off the part first before measuring or my machine wasn't like a coolant rainforest. Beyond that I think you're right about vernier's, they will last and are the cheapest option by far. Mitutoyo makes a 6" set that's around $57 or maybe a little more and you can trust them to around 1-2 thou just like you're saying. If you feel comfortable reading them, I say you are right to go that way. As I talk to more and more people, it is really not a "what's better" but more of a "what works for you" decision. I plan on getting a vernier set to compare to my others and also do a tutorial so more people can become comfortable using them and allow another choice.
Thanks for that. I have been trying to find an article for you; the author is Cyril Freezer, one time editor of the British 'Railway Modeller Magazine'. C.J. Freezer was a man of strong opinion and rarely wrong. You wouldn't argue with him on a 'migraine day'. In a review of so called 'modellers lathes' he stated on the subject of tools and as near as I can remember 'Vernier calipers should be restricted to those who know when not to use them'. That made me think; now I am learning to use dividers and a rule. He stated a practised engineer could work 'to a thou, though he might not know which thou it is'. One of the problems with calipers is some folk strain them by twisting them on removal from work; and that means you need to try a known test piece before trusting a measurement.
Of course in his day, digitals did not exist.
Will be interesting to see how you like verniers. My suspicion is they are as good and there is no lingering doubt as to whether the set you are using is reliable at the time. It is worth remembering I am only an amateur.
Enjoying your channel.
Peter
@@themeandrousengineer
Did you end up fixing it by grinding the break / gluing it or epoxying it? You could potentially tap some small holes in the case to attach it too!
I haven't actually tried to fix them, but some epoxy might actually work for a little while. They honestly still move around fine for measuring but they just have a hard time with more finite movements.
@@themeandrousengineer some would say that is going to be an issue of mastering the touch of calipers. I have no clue. I do not use the thumbwheel. it is not an intuitive thing for me eventhough I work in quality. i do not need to sneak up on a reading. I do need to move the jaws in and out to take measurements. Do they not sell replacement parts or offer repair? MSC industrial seems to have a spare parts kit and mitutoyo has a parts list you can buy on their website. just need to know the part number. I understand the principle you are communicating. but a few minutes of google have a feasible answer in my book. not a waste of money, but maybe not work the price for what you get. eh....dichotomies.
great video and great information
Thank you! Glad it was helpful.
Starrett was sold to private equity today. We can expect quality to drop precipitously. Better buy whatever you need now
Man, that could be a bummer. I hope it doesn’t take any quality away but I bet you’re right.
I swear by my mitutoyo calipers, I use the switch between absolute / incremental mode mode all the time which helps me be a lot faster when machining. I would never go back to a dial or vernier caliper for any kind of serious work.
I have dropped my mitutoyo’s on occasion but they haven’t broken so far.
If they were to break I’d buy another pair in a heartbeat. It measures significantly better than any other calipers I’ve ever used, including the swiss TESA brand.
It gives me measurements I can trust which makes my work higher in quality.
If it gets crunchy, then just wipe the rail clean and you’re done. No fragile mechanism to fool around with when it gets dirty.
In my opinion dial calipers are nice to have in an inspection room where they are kept safe from dirt and get dropped less.
Sorry, rant over
Hey, no worries about the rant. People are passionate about their calipers (so much so, that I worried about making this video). I definitely haven't blacklisted Mitutoyo digital calipers from ever using again. Like I said in the video, I'm just disappointed in them. I think if I bought another pair I might just be careful which model I was looking at to make sure the thumb wheel wouldn't be an issue. Thank you very much for watching and commenting.
Agreed 100%. Not a valid comparison, each style has its place in a shop.
One thing i like about the digital is the ability to measure something. Set it to zero and immediately measure liked items to determine if they are within the same tolerances.
That’s a great point for the use of digital calipers. After all these discussions, I’m definitely leaning on having a set of all three types of calipers just because. Digital has a lot of uses like your point, the easy conversion to metric if you’re in an imperial zone, and the coolant abuse they can take.
i have a 24 inch mitutoyo digital. only annoying thing i find is they don't have automatic shut off so you have to remember to shut them off.
It’s good to know you haven’t had any problems. I still think that Mitutoyo is a good brand, they just might have some issues at times.
How well built a tool is matters to me a lot. And it's frustrating to discover after purchase that the manufacturer has cut corners you didn't know about. But the other thing that really matters to me (at least for expensive tools) is how much the company stands behind their products. Mitutoyo generally has a reputation for making quality tools, and I'd be fascinated to hear their reaction if you call them up and complain about that plastic tab snapping off. I wouldn't be shocked if they'd do right by you, but you never know these days.
In all honesty, I haven't given them the chance to do this, but you may be right. Well built tools matter to me a lot too and even the best manufacturers can have a quality mistake. The real question is whether my problem was a fluke or really common for them to deal with.
I used all Mitutoyo's calipers from 1 basic,.. 2Dials.. and
3 Digimatics. All i can say, i am comfortable at any of these mitutoyos hardened stainless steel, but. Yes.. the plastic build on digimatic calipers on mitutoyo's are the bad side, might be the electronics inside cannot cover by any kinds of metals,. So the engineers decide use crispy plastics😵💫 but yes its works perfectly even drop it and that is the Mitutoyo special, but depends from how many Meters you drop it digimatic😉. If i where on Mitutoyos Engineer.. i will used stretch plastic like engineering plastic maybe ? Well we hope.. i hope the mitutoyo's read these comments.🤪
I hope they read them too! I know they can be better.
As a Journeyman tool and die maker/mold maker/ machinist with over 40 years' experience and having used every precision tool from every major manufacturer out there, I can tell you that for the everyday machinist nothing beats coolant resistant digital calipers. You remind me of old school guys when I was an apprentice who found calculators to be insulting, claiming that long-hand with a pencil is better because if you pushed the wrong number on the calculator, you wouldn't know if you made a mistake.
I am well versed in using trig to calculate any angles, as well as the two-second calculation of converting back and forth between inch and metric. However, if you have a tool that can do it for you in a faster way with no mistakes it makes no sense to belittle it. As for construction, try using those dial calipers inside or around CNC machines with coolant or oil dripping all over the place. Unless they are rated as waterproof, you could quickly find the dial being damaged. My 8" dial Mitutoyo lasted me for many, many, years and they got kicked around quite a bit. Coolant caused some damage to my dial's face and the occasional gear jump from a metal chip pushed me toward digital and they are great.
I'm as pro-American manufacturing as they come, but I'm expected to work as quickly as possible and with little room for mistakes on very expensive precision parts. Because of the type of work that I do, I swear by the coolant resistant digital Mitutoyo caliper. And nothing beats the smoothness of a gearless caliper. If you plan on handling your calipers like a caged monkey, or just want a general-purpose caliper that you plan on throwing in your back pocket or expect to lay all around the shop, then maybe the life expectancy would favor the dial. But at that point why not just buy a pair of SPI or Fowler. You can buy 3-5 of those to every one pair of Starrett. My most recent pair were built about 10 years ago and I have not heard anything lately about quality issues with Mitutoyo. Before the advent of CNC machines, we needed to use many of the specialty tools put out by the big two of those times, Starrett and Brown and Sharpe. But today CNC creates all the angles and radii needed in parts that back in 1980 we had to do on a Bridgeport. Nowadays even specialty cutters are cheap enough to buy that can be added to the CNC process and it eliminates any secondary operations which would have had to done in the past. The point being that Starrett is highly overrated. If someone offers you a pair at a good price, by all means take it, but if don't have a lot of expendable income, don't let anyone shame you for not buying American.
I got through about half a sentence before I fell asleep. If I wanted to read a full blown novel I wouldn't have come to youtube
@@lukewatson5345 Wow, You must be one of those people who went to school and never had to read in order to learn. You should be a scientific experiment. Idiot of the day.
At least I didn't need a 17 minute video to describe the differences of an instrument with one moving part. I guess it would have taken you more than 17 minutes to read this reply.
@@hav2win It took me a while to get through your reply, and I can't tell if it is a compliment or not...I don't use instructions when crafting my Ikea furniture if that's what you mean...Why did you watch this 17 minute video if you didn't need to watch a 17 minute video? That's like saying you just took a breath, but you didn't need to, you just did it for funzees.
You talk too much. What a rant. I'm glad I don't work around you.
The battery on a dial caliper will never need replacing either. 😁
Another point for analog!
but grit and chips will ruin the rack
The mitutoyo battery last for years with their patented battery technology. Only draw 1mah when off and 5 when on.😊
@@chadcoady9025 I have calipers that are 50 years old and still work fine. Will your Mitutoyo battery still work in 50 years?
@@LTVoyager I think I can swing the two bucks for a battery here and there. I have all 3 types of calipers and I use the Mitutoyo digital 99% of the time.
One thing that many people forget about, is the possibility of a project going late, or failing, if your measuring equipment fails, and you have no viable backup, and the supplier is closed, or .... I found this out, early, when buying tools with a replacement warranty, but, when they broke, on the job, at a remote site, the warranty didn't buy anything!!
Better tools, that*don't need the warranty!*
You’re absolute right about the situations where things can break and cause major setbacks. People rely on these kinds of tools to get things done for their livelihoods. Most don’t seem to honor their warranties any more either. I’ve seen a lot of companies find technicalities to get out of doing the right thing. Mind you, this isn’t Mitutoyo or Starrett. I’ve never made a warranty claim for them.
I wonder what will happen to Starrett being they were sold
I think a lot of people are wondering what this means for Starrett. Some buyouts don’t ruin companies but others drive them into the ground while milking them for all they’re worth. We’ll have to sit back and see.
I hate the loss of the etching of smaller graduations on the Mitutoyo, even though digital I still like to see the visual smaller mm or fractional graduations.
I would love to have both physical and digital on a set of calipers. It would combine the best of both worlds.
GOOD job with this video. Exclusive of inherent differences and what to consider between swing arm and digital calipers in this class I chose Starrett. The tie breaker for me is MADE IN USA and the 3202 120A is. There's simply too much at stake these days and never has it been more obvious.
Thank you! I tend to favor US made products due to the idealistic thoughts of yesteryear that American made is better. I do still think that in certain circumstances these days we still stand out. That being said I feel that Mitutoyo has certain products that they do well just like Starrett does. Their indicators and micrometers are pretty high quality alot of the time. Even Starrett is a pick and choose like with the 120A. It's definitely made in America and they're a hefty set of calipers with the ability to disassemble for cleaning and realignment. It's lesser brother, the 3202-6 is more plastic and subtly do not say American Made on the dial like the 120A's do. You can be a loyal, yet smart, consumer on these things.
Man! Great review....
Much appreciated!
There's so many brand, like nsk, shinwa, kanon, insize, mahr, somet, B&S, M&W etc etc but performance of the tools is still depends entirely on the operator, if you abused your tools, use them wrong, drop them, they will break regardless.
It's seem that peoples move always from vernier caliper but i still use my 60+ years mitutoyo 12" vernier that grandfather give it to me.. it's outlast the previous owner and yes, it pass calibration tests with flying colors.
One thing i know that most modern vernier caliper are not as good as the old one. It's funny to think that with all of these state-of-the-art manufacturing but their product quality are getting worse. Unlike 50s instrument, that practically handmade but somehow having much better finish and quality.
You’re right on a lot of things. It does depend on the user quite a bit and they’re not meant to be dropped even if it can point out flaws in the design.
I’m not surprised in the least that older vernier’s are better than new ones. Things used to be made with pride and attentiveness. Now things are made as cheaply and as quickly as possible to maximize profit.
Afaik, B&S no longer manufacturer anything themselves other than maybe there CMM's. Some of it like their dti's are outsourced to an European based company, Interapid in Switzerland I think, but with B&S's logo and are still very good. They were an excellent metrology company, and it's sad they no longer are. I guess the bean counters got there way. Quite a bit though comes out of China and most is no better than any other cheaper off shore tool except it now has the B & S higher price.
It depends on how your dial calipers land if you drop them as far as how much damage you'll see. It was my own fault, but I dropped my 12" Mit dial calipers just once on a wooden floor. Exactly how that caused the amount of damage that happened I still can't figure out. The plastic crystal seemed unmarked, but the needle was seriously bent enough in two directions to start seriously dragging on and marking the dial face. And as expected, it jumped a couple of rack teeth which wasn't a problem because that can be reset easy enough. But returning them to Mit for repair and recalibration cost me about half of what a new pair would. I can say they were repaired to a like new condition. After that, I'm real careful how I handle any measuring tool and even where I set them down. Maybe ask Mitutoyo to give you a repair quote to fix those digitals. Who knows, it might be cheaper than you think. But I agree with you 100% about the design and material they chose. Yeah injection molding is cheap with high part numbers. Losing customers usually isn't.
I think many people have a drop story like this. We all know it’s technically our fault and have to accept it. I try not to drop precision instruments too but we all have a bad day at times. That being said, you’re not the first to suggest contacting Mitutoyo. I’ll have to see what a repair would look like
Starrett for the win.
A lot of people I’ve worked with over the years have loved Mitutoyo but I have usually preferred Starrett. I do still think that if you get the right set from Mitutoyo, that they can be good too.
Shars break in the same place. Dont ask how I know. I knocked it off my toolbox when it was in the case and they still broke exactly where yours did.
Man, that's sad that they broke in the case. It's really interesting that they broke in the same place because I really do think it is an area in modern calipers that could be improved.
I tend to agree mostly but if Harbor Freight an make a set of crappy calipers for around $20.00 that are reasonably accurate (if your not a machinist) then Mitutoyo and Starrett should be able to make all of there calipers almost perfect for around $100.00, any more than that and the price becomes more like a Rolex and less like a tool. I will say though that my old $120.00 dial gauge 1202-6 Starrett calipers have remained a quality tool and accurate to around .008, and there all metal. They just shouldn't cost $200 +.
It's a very personal choice for what tools to get that work for you. The response to this video is proof of that. Many people are passionate about their tools and will fight you to the end. I really just want what I spend my money on to last indefinitely, which I know is actually unrealistic because all things fail eventually. Everyone should think about the application they need calipers for and spend appropriately. It gets into nitty gritty when you're comparing top brands, but that's ok. The Starrett's I have were around $80 when I bought them 10+ years ago and they work great. I would have a hard time choking on the prices these days.
"reasonably accurate" lol yeah for hobbyist wood working.
If you want a super durable and inexpensive caliper good old verniers are very tough.
Funny you mention that, I just ordered some Mitutoyo verniers from late 50's/early 60's on eBay
@@themeandrousengineer I was also thinking that to do unbiased caliper testing you could have someone make up a random stack of gauge blocks and measure those. That way the person with the calipers wouldn't know what the measurement should be yet it would be very easy to determine what the measurement should be.
I have a set on mitutoyos. It’s plus of minus.003”. Calipers get you into the ballpark, but a good set of micrometers gets you home. I don’t trust calipers hardly at all.
Every tool has its place and you just nailed it for what calipers are good for. I love calipers for what they are meant for but micrometers are definitely a step up for precision.
If you’re getting +/- .003 out of a Mit you need to either learn how to use them or learn how to adjust them.
@@tomkennedy7971 I don't think it's the ability to measure more accurately than +/- 0.003 that is the question. I think we're talking more about the level of trust in calipers in general. In reality for me, I'll use calipers for as tight as a +/- 0.001 and when tolerances get into half thousandths, I'll get out the micrometer. All that being said, if you have a job that demands accuracy, I would draw the trust line at +/- 0.003 myself and use a micrometer for any dimension I could. It's all about trust, the ability to reduce error, and the end goal for a part or project.
Accurate measurements are not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of proper technique applied to a properly adjusted and maintained tool. Both tools are capable of +/- .001 accuracy and half that in repeatability when clean, properly adjusted, and proper technique is applied. You can’t blame the tool if you can’t achieve “trust” greater than +/- .003. And if a person’s skill, technique, and trust level is at +/- .003 with calipers, then it’s doubtful those same skills and techniques will be achieving half thousandth accuracy when applied to micrometers. I stand by my original reply. Anyone incapable of repeatedly achieving better than +/- .003 with Mits should be working on their skills, not knocking the tool.
@@tomkennedy7971 Ok, let me start off by saying that I agree with you (for the most part). Having the proper knowledge and skill is paramount to making good parts within correct tolerances. This helps your accuracy with the tools you are using, most definitely. In my time being a machinist and working around machinists, many around me have had heated discussions about the "right" way to do things with setups, tool choice, feeds and speeds, best G-code choices, operational order...etc. I have to say that after listening to these conversations for over 15 years that they were all right in some way. Some would be staunchly in the idea that faster was better and more efficient, however others would prefer to have a higher quality finish making their part take longer. Now you may have an employer that is harping on you for production numbers so in that case faster IS better, but most of the time all of these choices come down to preference. If @donlddepew9605 wants to use micrometers when tolerancing is under 0.003" and a good part is made, isn't that the important thing? I absolutely know that everyone who has laid hands on a lathe or mill has their own way of doing things that works for them. If you can accomplish your job in your own way within the constraints of your print, part and employer, does it really matter how you get there?
Your comparing dial calipers to digital, why? Maybe you should compare mitutoyo dial calipers to your starrett dial calipers. You would think a manufacturing engineer would understand this
You know, you're not wrong. It is a rather apples to oranges comparison, but we all have a choice of digital vs dial vs verneir when looking at calipers. It is more intended to be a durability comparison. Both measure the same type of measurements, but I viewed the construction of my Starrett dial calipers to be superior, at least for my use (some here have smartly commented that dials aren't good in harsh environments). At some point, I would like to do several comparisons like different brands' older calipers vs newer models and like you suggested, comparing dial calipers from Mitutoyo to Starrett.
I have 3 dead Sterrets, dig lasted 6 months if that, the dialed ones I cant get parts for. I can at least get parts for the Mitutoyos. Heck my HF digitals are 10 years old.
That's a shame about Starrett failing you 3 times. What Starrett model were you using and in what environment? That's some great info that Mitutoyo actually sells parts to fix your calipers. I haven't ever tried to get parts from any of them because by the time most calipers I see that are used in production need fixing, they are beaten to a pulp and better off replaced.
I hate to say this but many cheap calipers are very good. I bought a Chinese one in the early 1980s that are still fine today. I’m not saying that it doesn’t pay to buy expensive ines. I have three Tesa B&S models, two digital. I was looking to buy a Starrett digital model recently, and I thought, well, I should try to buy a USA built one this time. But their digital models, despite being very expensive, are made in China.
Look, if you drop calipers and they hit at certain stress points, no matter how expensive, no matter how well made, they are going to break. That’s particularly true if you drop them on a concrete floor. These are all delicate instruments, they are not made to be dropped. If you drop it and it doesn’t break, then likely they are now not accurate. Why don’t you drop your Starrett? Instead of speculating, do the test. And not on a rubber mat.I don’t care about the boxes, because they’re a waste of space in the draw. I put them somewhere out of the way in case I ever give mine away.
I also do woodworking, and if I worked to worse than a 128th of an inch I would redo it. A really good joint is made to a couple of though at worst. There is no reason with woodworking that your work should be much less accurate than metal working.
No shame in using the cheapies if they work well for what you're doing. I wouldn't mind having a pair of cheap calipers in my shop to use when I don't want to get the "nice" ones out.
I will concede that I shouldn't have dropped them in the first place. That's for sure. If I were in the business of true comparisons and actually had disposable income, I could drop my Starret's and compare how they do when dropped on a concrete floor. Maybe if I actually start getting paid for my UA-cam efforts...
If I'm being honest, I use calipers for my wood working too. I can't turn off the machinist mentality even though it doesn't always require it. The joints you speak of definitely benefit from precision. I'm just not going to push people to be super precise when they can get by without worrying about it as much.
Sorry, marked thumb down.
You raise a good point in respect to the fragility of plastic cases, but as you also stated, the reason why it's plastic is because it's not going to be impacted (pun intended) by ingress of liquids and dust. As you pointed out, dropping the Starrett would have potentially damaged them too. Yes tools should be designed well, and I would have to agree with you that the use of a metal sub-frame to pinion the thumb-wheel would be better (if more expensive) but they didn't design it to be abused. I'm afraid I don't agree with your conclusion that this was engineered to fail.
I was expecting a review and comparison of these tools, but outside of the box comparison, it never happened. You did mentioned the Mitutoyo breakage at least seven times, however. (4:20, 6:28, 6:55, 8:10, 10:21, 12:10, 13:26). I think you got really unlucky with your experience, and aside from the fact that the wheel came off, a fairly simple repair lets face it, the tool itself is still perfectly usable. The Mitutoyo still works, it's not crap!
You clearly love the analogue experience, and I can't fault you there. My vernier callipers (old school, not even a dial) are my go-to every time for the every-day, and they get a lot of use, and abuse, as a result.
My digital callipers are the ones I get out for the accuracy, clarity, features (less math involved!) and ease of use, however: Metric to Imperial conversion, just push a button. Relative measurement, i.e. measuring the size difference between two objects, just push a button. It offers direct, unambiguous measurement. I don't need to read the vernier scale to get the result I want, a process that I've been known to mess up from time to time. From a workflow perspective, the digital tool is, for me, much, much faster to use.
Digital Con's? Needs a battery, though I've had this set for nearly two years and it's still got the original. I think it was supplied with a spare, but I've no idea where that is.
It would be really good to see/hear your views of the digital vs dial calliper experience on the day job, and move on from how pissed off you obviously are that you dropped them and they're damaged as a result.
First off, thank you for the feedback on the video. It's not easy to hear criticism about things you've made but this type of well thought out response does give me something to ponder in order to make my channel/videos better, so in the end I appreciate it.
I never know how to respond to the obviously passionate group that this video speaks to. I'll have to make myself more clear about my opinions for things in the future, but I never said Mitutoyo was crap. I said I was disappointed in them because I know they are a good company. I use indicators, calipers, and micrometers from them almost daily and they get the job done excellently most of the time. My issue wasn't even in the overall material choice of "plastic" for the thumbwheel. This plastic had a brittle fracture which says that something was wrong with the material itself. Now, I make assumptions here and that could be my downfall, but companies make choices on materials like this every day, usually the most effective material for the least cost. These days, and honestly most manufacturers since the 80's, companies tend to teeter the line of choosing lesser cost over quality to maximize profit. I just think Mitutoyo chose a sub par plastic or something went wrong in their injection molding process. I may have been very unlucky, but I have heard other commenters who said the exact same thing happened to them too. Also, there is another comment from @loodwich who says he is a materials expert. He stated that there are fillers that are added to plastics to reduce cost during production. The side effect of these additives? Brittleness. I'm not saying I'm right, but we should at least consider the possibility.
No, these were not made to be abused, but they don't seem to be made to last either. I will admit, if companies made things the way I prefer, no one would ever make any money because products would be as robust as possible with the intent to last forever. Capitalism would fail and jobs would be lost, but the landfills would be empty and when you bought something it would last forever or at least be maintainable/repairable. I took a few days to reflect upon your pissed off comment at the end and you're right that I am, but not about what.
I'm not mad that MY calipers were broken, they can be fixed as you said. I'm mad that poor choices are made with products all the time in the vein to make another dollar for every widget sold. It's not about Mitutoyo, it's about the choices manufacturers make that effect us in our everyday. I psychoanalyzed myself and I can pinpoint when I first was angry about this problem. In the 80's at first my Transformers were made of metal (silly example but true). You could run over them with a truck and they could potentially survive. As the next generations of those toys came out, more and more components were plastic. I had some break on me because I was a kid and I was just simply playing. I didn't know how to verbalize it then, but I noticed that the quality was going down in the toys I had. It was a noticeable difference. I have been admittedly biased against plastic ever since.
Since being a machinist and then becoming an engineer, I have learned that there are grades of plastic and different choices that are quite durable. There are also design choices that can encourage breakage with stress points. I still think it is worth at least considering how these calipers can be better and what their current flaws may be. Maybe I should put a question mark in my title, "Engineered to Fail?". It sparks a debate that I think we should have about all the things we buy.
I've gone thru 3 calipers in 40 years: DROPPED THEM...
What kind were they and what happened to them?
@@themeandrousengineerdoesn’t matter. They will ALL break.
For me my vintage Japanese NSK calipers and mic is my favorite used to work in a shop that made carbide tools before I left I cover their mic in carbide dust before I got canned lol that destroyed the mic
I’ve never used NSK before. I had to look them up and all I saw were a bunch of vintage calipers for sale like on eBay. I assume you can’t get them anymore? Are they the same company that makes bearings and ball screws too?
@themeandrousengineer yeah I don't know much about their new stuff, but their vintage stuff is soild a company imports nsk mic and caliper under the Fowler name not NSK
Is this just a rant because you dropped your calipers? Glue the plastic back together and move on. I'd use those mitutoyo's before those Starrett's any day, and if you paid $260 for a set Starrett 1202's you paid WAY too much. If you're a Starrett guy, after you use a set of 120's nothing else matters.
In the end, this isn't a Mitutoyo problem.
Man, you do like to stir the pot don't you.... To answer your question about it being a rant, the answer is partly yes and mostly no. Truly it's not even a Starrett vs Mitutoyo argument either, although it appears to be. This is a widescale manufacturing issue that I've seen through many companies and industries that I've bought products from and I know you've noticed it too. Products that were once robust will have components that are more cheaply made so that companies can save or make more money. Saving or making more money isn't a sin for business, but when it compromises the quality of their products, especially compared to excellent past reputation like Mitutoyo, it is definitely bad. In the beginning of these choices, it hurts the consumer and in the end it hurts those companies because people won't buy from them anymore. Trust me, I'm wary about some models of Starrett calipers as well. The replacement for the Starrett 1202's (which, by the way, I paid $80 for in 2011) now have a plastic enclosure as well. I paid $260 for the digital Mitutoyo's that I talk about in the video which obviously have brittle plastic components. I think the point isn't which brand, but be careful what you buy from every brand. I'm not a Starrett or Mitutoyo guy really, I just like well made tools that are durable and last.
Mitutoyo 530-101 Vernier Calipers. Metric and fractional inches. Best $40 I’ve spent. Does not have 1/1000s of an inch.
I can read verniers but haven’t used them much. Usually they’re the calipers left put away because a lot of people can’t read them. I can see them being a great reliable and cost effective choice.
Another alternative to digital is to buy a two dial calipers - one imperial and the second metric. Have you asked your dealer, or Mitutoyo directly, if they have a replacement part available?
I have considered doing this with two dial calipers, but as often as it comes up here in the US, I can just calculate the conversion. That's a decent idea about trying the dealer. I got them through MSC and they might know of something.
Just glue the abs plastic part with using chcl3 chloroform will bond like new at mollecular level, just tiny drop is needed
@@akierum Sounds like some good advice but I don’t know if I can even get it here in the US. I did a quick search and it looks to be banned. I did find some others in Reddit saying exactly the same thing about it fusing plastic well.
ive always picked "bang for the buck" solves a lot of issues you bring up. ue, buy to the point where getting an additional 10% performance / quality will cost you twice as much. same goes for picking gf's
Seems like a decent strategy!
ive had my mitutoyo calipers 20 years dropped them lots of times and got them wet and wouldnt look at any other calipers
See, that's the Mitutoyo reputation I've come to expect.
I think you have there a Mitutoyo knock off. I have a Mitutoyo I got for $135 and they look nothing like that and are made very well. There is a a youtube on how to tell the fakes you might want to check.
I'm doing some research right now to see for sure about these.
My harbor freight do it very well for $9.99 11 years ago :)
Hey, if they work for you that's great. What kind of work do you do with them?
@@themeandrousengineer metal, wood reloading
@@ilanmagen Any machining at all? Just curious if these Harbor Freight calipers give you some decent accuracy (+/- 0.001)
You may not have heard of 'Moore and Wright', back in the day every British machinist would have had measuring tools made by M&W set up in WW2.........point being I bought a 160mm electronic calipers 10 years ago and they're still going strong.................Sadly their Sheffield factory has long gone and replaced by a shopping supermarket, f*cking disgrace!
You’re right, I’ve never heard of the brand, but it is a shame when quality products fade away.
Planned obsolescence irks me to no end. I understand it and get that it might very well be responsible for the economy of excess and first world luxury, but it's also a serious pain to watch tools and products you've bought in years past become worse and worse, making you feel like a fool for ever recommending them or speaking highly of them if someone does happen to take your word and purchase after intentionally awful redesigns.
It's a difficult market to find any quality products these days. Even if a guy named Bob says he had a great set of calipers, tires, what have you, there's no telling if the quality is consistent either. You could get the exact same thing and it could go straight in the garbage. I used to be able to trust reviews left from people like on Amazon, but even that is spammed with inconsistent feedback. I can't tell if they are paid reviews, real people who had problems, or someone who simply doesn't understand what a quality product is. I understand that planned obsolescence may be necessary for our system to continue to work, but I would prefer a middle ground instead of worthless products you can't always trust.
I wouldn't give up my digital calipers I use for woodworking for nothing.
I can’t blame you for that. I never really intended the video to be a dial vs digital or even a Starrett vs Mitutoyo argument. It was really just comparing construction/design methods. I did mean to call out Mitutoyo on a sub par design but I would definitely buy other things from them.
Once your caliper has dropped it immediately becomes wrthless as an arbitrary measuring tool so it must go either to a proper checks/repair/calibration service or in the rubbish bin straight away.
That's a fair assessment. I haven't used the Mitutoyo's that broke for anything production related since dropping them. To their credit, I think they are still quite accurate.
Wait till you get older and cannot read that dial and please then update this presentation.
I hope that never happens but if it does I certainly will. I have nothing against digital calipers and I think they’re a tool that every serious maker should consider having. I just want things to last a long time when you spend a hefty amount of money on them.
Unfortunately, Starrett was just bought out by an LLP & the firm will be no more ... another fantastic, historic American company bites the dust.
I’ve heard this from a few people. Truly sad to see happen. They had already begun to farm out lesser level calipers to China but this probably spells doom.
You are showing the truth in all your videos...
I have a Ph.D. in materials, plastics and metals... So I can say plastic is not necessarily bad, depending on the plastic, and the process could be better than metals. But for the video, I think the hook is PE (good one) but with 30-40% of calcium carbonate (much cheaper than plastic)... so the final result is a cheaper plastic, around 30-35% lower cost, but brittle on the impact.
I'm still working on my bias against plastics, LDPE, HDPE, Delrin, Polycarbonate...etc. I've seen all of these used in real applications that these types of materials shine and do extremely well. It's mostly the injection molded plastics I see in consumer grade products that really bother me. I'm assuming you're saying that they add calcium carbonate into the PE in order to save money? Here it was I thought they had only switched from metal housing to a plastic in order to save money. Now it sounds like they're diluting the efficacy of the PE to save even more. This illustrates the cost savings point I have in the video about manufacturers always having to make things more efficiently, cheaper, or faster to increase/maintain profits. It's sad really.
Thank you for commenting on these videos. It's nice to know that people are enjoying them.
@@themeandrousengineer I had the same bias when I started my Ph.D. but I found books about material and design by Michael F. Ashby, and reading them changed my viewpoint, also working with metals and polymers for years, and I am still in the laboratory.
The problem with the metals is that the tools to make the shape is expensive, the defects in the shape are higher, and very difficult to reprocess all the scrap material, you will need temperatures around 700 to 1600°C. You could reprocess all the polymer at only 200°C and only need an injector and mold to make thousands of parts. and are more easily maintained.
The price of 1 kg of plastic is around 2 USD, but calcium carbonate is only 0,35USD per kilogram. PE could be filled until 50-60% in weight, so the material cost is reduced a lot... the problem is, as you show, the polymer part is brittle on impact. In several of my research, I use additives to increase the mechanical properties of plastics or increase the elasticity. Still, if this material is more expensive than polymer filled with inorganic compounds, the companies don't want it.
I could talk about those examples for hours, but you know where we will finish.
That’s fascinating that you can include additives for the polymers that will either enhance or detract from its properties. I didn’t know that you could add to them at all. It makes a lot more sense to me as to why products fail that are made from polymers. It’s not the plastic itself but probably the material choices to save money. I really hate that money dictates these things but I understand it at the same time.
Unsolicited PHD drop
Good ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you! Thanks for watching!
I have at least 8 different digital calipers. Starrett, Mitutoyo, Tesa, and Mahr. Starrett are the worst, Mitutoyo the best. If you drop them, any of them, they need to go into the trash.
That's quite a collection. Admittedly I haven't used Starrett digitals due to my favoritism for the mechanical versions so I can't really have an opinion one way or the other.
I would not place money on a bet that Mitutoyo dial calipers are worth more than a cheap Chinese dial caliper......the Mitutoyo dial caliper I have has had many needle moves off of the 12 o'clock position mainly probably due to dirt in the rack or rapid moves that made the pinion hop over a tooth or two......... that in the end drove me to getting a cheap Chinees one for A$24 and so far it has functioned as good as you would want.
Just saying that a well-known brand is better than one costing less is not a valid statement.......the Chinese know how to make tools.
You’re not the first one to say that here. I’ll have to check out some cheaper calipers and see what I think. I have seen cheaper ones that are terrible in every sense of the word but since there are multiple people here saying the same thing I’ll have to be open minded. This is some great stuff with everyone sharing information on their own experiences. It’s a wealth of knowledge that I and everyone else can benefit from. If there are some cheap micrometers out there I would be willing to give those a try too.
@@themeandrousengineer Well, at the same time I'm a big fan of the digital calipers but one thing detracts from them and that is the battery going flat so quick..........when I want to use the digi one and the display flickers it's a pain to keep having to replace the battery........I have a plan to fit a small super capacitor to the battery compartment or on the back and a stand to put the caliper on to recharge between use as the circuitry takes very little power etc but at the moment it's wishful thinking.
I’ve always thought plastic on tools was cheap. Tools should never have plastic 😂
I've always generally felt this way, but sadly sometimes it is necessary. For this case, I don't think so.
The mitu cases with the live hinge/flexure is one of the worst case Ive ever had. Case hinges failed and the case has way too loose a fit for housing a precision instrument. Calipers still going on the first battery 5 years later. Daily drivers as well.
Starrett 120a are also reliable but being dial I reach for them less.
I’m not so sure the intended topic of this video is accurate. Build quality changes, but better spare parts availability would’ve save everyone the time to watch this video, and the poster would’ve saved time “discussing” minutiae.
Bottom line is if you’re working in the boundary between clearance, slip/ running, and interference fits you’re asking for bad days if you’re using a slide caliper. This is micrometer territory. Get a cheap caliper and a good set of mics. Move on.
New subscriber here.
Awesome, thank you so much! I appreciate it and it really helps the channel.
Cool, I wonder if there's a caliper that has tungsten carbide or harder jaw edge (replaceable even like pliers in high-end multi-tool pliers) coz' it's more accurate to just scratch the material or mark it by pressing the caliper rather than marking with a pencil. It'd also be faster using the caliper jaw to scratch the material if only General (an all-metal amazing looking, precise too digital caliper brand, Mitutoyo, Starrett & Browne & Sharpe made caliper with very hard tips.
God bless. Revelation 21:4
That's a cool idea to use carbide inserts for calipers. You would have to be careful about dropping those too since the carbide is a little more brittle than hardened steel. I love using my calipers to scribe in measurements on materials. I've done that for years and they seem to be pretty resistant to most materials I've commonly worked with. You start getting into harder metals it may get a little sketchy but I think those still work too.
Get a set of hermaphrodite dividers that can be set with a steel rule for doing layouts and marking. This avoids having the shop foreman dope slapping you for misusing your calipers.
@@themeandrousengineer Yup, that's the dream of everyone who uses the amazing Vernier Caliper, to be able to scratch surfaces with it without breaking the precision (way more precise than marking).
I usually have to transfer the measurement onto a broken digital Browne & Sharp caliper (I hope I can revive and fix it) which is the one I use to scratch the surface (or load the tip w/ pencil graphite or white pen or marker then mark the gaff tape, taped onto the metal but a scratch on the surface is better- no risk of erasing the mark and it's faster, no need to clean the jaws w/ eraser or solvent. I highly recommend using gaff tape or gaffer's tape, in different colors for color coding- it's expensive but it's highly reusable and it doesn't leave a residue similar to painter's tape if painter's tape is too thin).
I did email and suggest this to all big Vernier caliper makers, especially Mitutoyo & Starrett (and also a not so main brand, the General brand, coz' they have this stylish 100% all-metal digital caliper I use). they think about making it and make a caliper that can scratch surfaces and have a built ink reservoir in the jaws without breaking the precision.
God bless.
@@SevenDeMagnus I’ll keep that in mind about the gaffer’s tape. That stuff looks great for more than just marking projects. I’m assuming that if you emailed those companies no one replied? It would be interesting if they actually did.
@@aceroadholder2185 I like those dividers. I don’t know that I’ve seen them before now. That’s a great way to scribe something for layouts.
Your “Mitutoyos” look fake to me.
It’s a momentous day to be accused of fakery on the internet. I actually wish you were right.
@@themeandrousengineer oh I wasn’t accusing you of fakery. The fake mitutoyo calipers are all over the place. I got a fake pair from Amazon for $169. I ended up buying a genuine pair and the most sure fire way to know if you have a real set vs fake is by testing the battery draw. Mitutoyo has patented battery technology where the unit only draws 1mA when off and only around 5 when on, where the knockoffs drew about 19mA off and 26mA when on.
@@chadcoady9025 Ah, I understand now. I’ll have to test the power draw but these were ordered through MSC Industrial so I would hope they provide the legit versions. I still wish you were right about them being fakes even in the new context. That’s a very interesting test to make sure you have the real thing.
Well, that was quite a biased "comparison" don't you think so? Just because one little piece of plastic broke is not a reason to praise the dial calipers.
I praise the material choices of the dial calipers, not really the fact that they are dial. To be clear, I still like the Mitutoyo calipers and I feel like I said it in the video that they were otherwise good quality. If I were shown a version of digital calipers that had a metal hook holding the thumbwheel, then I would be very impressed. I am admittedly biased towards the set of calipers that has been with me over 10 years, which just happen to be a set of Starrett dial calipers.
Seems like your 1st born also knows a thing or 2 about one little broken piece of plastic
Generally its never a good idea to drop any precision measurement tools… what’s new?
Ever heard of a drop indicator? I assume not. That is an indicator that indicates the magnitude of a drop (Hence the name), that the NYT named as the most precision tool of 2017. IDK about you, but if the most precise measuring tool is able to be dropped, I am sure these calipers should be designed to be dropped in the same manner....Also cats are lame and wizards are nerdy.
@@lukewatson5345 there is no such thing as a drop indicator. Youre a fool, stop talking.
@@PowerfulWizard first off, that was rude. As a wizard you should know that "please" and "thank you" are the magic words. Secondly, I have a few magic tools myself, one of them allows me to hold all of the knowledge of the world in my fingertips. Laymen call it google, but I call it google. This google has revealed to me that a drop indicator is actually a thing, which means there was no need for your rudeness in the first place. It has also revealed to me that I am not a fool. If you are willing to sell your soul to targeted advertising, I believe even a level 1 D&D player (such as yourself) can entice the magical being to reveal these truths to you as well.
‘Tis true however I still think it points out a flaw in the design.
My choice goes to the vernier one..the battery will be dead when you need them, and the rack will get a chip in it and will be annoying as all hell..learn to read the vernier scale..
All good points. I've never owned a vernier pair, but I may just get a set to have. Everybody's responses tell me more and more that calipers are a very personal choice for how you get your work done. It's kind of fascinating.
The batteries last years and if you dont have a battery thats on you. Also digital is far more accurate and uses .001
I would just make a housing out of aluminum
Not a bad idea. I would have to take it apart with the idea that it may not work when it goes back together but might be worth a try
What the....???? no love for Etalon? Made by mountain dwarves in the Swiss Alps.
I have never even heard of this brand and I had a hard time even finding it on the internet. Being Swiss I’m sure they are excellent. Are these an older brand that had popularity a while ago or just something not known in the US much?
@@themeandrousengineer I was a tool grinder for 25 years. A couple of the old guys had Etalon mics, calipers, height gages, ball gages, etc. As they retired out, they gave some away. I got a dial caliper that I used for another 15 years until 2001. When I saw this video, I checked around for Etalon. They're still in business but I couldn't determine of they still made bench tools. Most likely out sourced well before now.
I found that all their stuff was just as good or better than Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, or Mitutoyo. I have alot of the latter still. Mitutoyo is superb. So is Etalon. We had Swiss and Japanese machine tools in the shop which were also very well made. The old centerless grinder was a vintage Cincinnatti, and we had one large Universal made by Cincinnatti as well. Good stuff from the Golden Age of American machine tools, when even your radial arm saw from DeWalt was a masterpiece of precision.
Rule No 1 : DONT DROP YOUR CALIPER ( And then Blame it on the World Leading Company !)
Believe it or not I agree with your Rule No 1, minus the parenthetical. To be clear, I don't blame Mitutoyo for my dropping the calipers. It's all me for dropping them. I still think it's worth questioning the stress points of their design and the composition of their plastics. Maybe the title of the video should be "Engineered to Last?"
At my work we have several of these same Mitutoyo digital coolant resistant calipers and bought them less than a year ago. Although the measurements are still great, the cases and surfaces are very easily beaten and worn. None of them have had the thumbwheel broken off like mine, but these were definitely not made to last. Currently the 6" versions of these are $252.90 on MSC. Let me ask you this.... If you spend that much money on something, wouldn't you expect them to be more durable than "lesser" calipers? Sure, you might take better care of your tools. I can make a Faberge egg last forever and always wear white gloves, only take it out for special occasions. Machinists and engineers are hard working people. Their tools should be made to last. People drop things sometimes and although it may be their fault, I still feel like older Mitutoyo tooling would have shrugged it off with barely a dent, spit in my face, and said "Is that all you got?"
u can order them without the thumbwheel ! problem solved
@@themeandrousengineer
The digitals weak points is exactly why I remained focused on high quality dial calipers . I prefer VERNIERS over digitals !!!!!!!
After all of the comments on these videos, I may get a set of verniers myself! In the end, I'll probably be a hoarder and have all three just for a whimsical choice in the shop. In my heart I just love tools, so each has their different value.
I guess the better option is Vernier version.
For durability sake, it's really looking like this is the case. Only hurdle for this is if you can read one.
I wonder if your mitutoyos are knock off.
Others have wondered the same but since I got them from MSC Industrial, I’m not so sure. If I had gotten them from eBay or Amazon, maybe.
you talk about breakage as you literally broke your starret.
How do you mean I broke my Starrett?
A lot of Mitutoyo calipers on the market are fake beware.
I'm doing some research right now to see for sure about these.
Looks like you bought fake mitutoyo,
Many people have had that same thought but I'm pretty sure they're not since I bought them from MSC
Bro stop dropping your calipers 😂
Too late
Those starretts 120s are Chinese.
Although I feel the construction is pretty good, the 1202A's that I use in the video are most certainly Chinese. The 120A's that you can buy at least claim they are made in USA and say "American Made" on the dial. All I was really saying is that the construction method was better than a plastic shell for durability. Although usually derogatory, Chinese manufacturing has surprised me with the quality they can be capable of in recent years. I would still prefer American made, but I'm not really sure that means what it used to either.
Starett quality has really gone downhill
I’ve seen it kind of both ways. For the lesser/cheaper models like the 3202 the quality is going down. For the 120’s which are definitely more expensive, they seem to be pretty good still. I use them at work and quality seems decent. The black ring around the dial is a plastic which kinda feels a little cheaper but overall they’re pretty solid. Honestly I think all products go down in quality over time. I feel like there are examples of mitutoyo doing this as well just like in the video.
Dial calipers are cheaters vs. vernier
Ha, you got me there. Does it count if I don’t use verniers, but I can read them?
Yes@@themeandrousengineer
Id bet money your mitutoyo are fake.
I may have to investigate that for another video
Them Starretts are made in China aint they?
Buy a nice set of Mitutoya all metal verniers for WAAAY less than those Chinese Starretts.
You're right, the ones on the video are China made. I've had biases in the past about the quality of Chinese manufacturing, but I feel like I've noticed that their standards have gotten higher over the years. I feel like I've seen some actually decent caliber Harbor Freight tools in more recent years (with discretion).
That being said, Starrett definitely has differing levels of quality depending on how much you spend. My full metal 1202's aren't even being made any more and have been replaced with a plastic casing in recent years. If you spend more you can get the 120A's which are all metal and are made in the USA. I took a look at verniers and you're definitely right, if I bought some they would be more affordable and all metal. Mitutoyo's would most certainly all be made in Japan, so that's a win for them. I think both of these brands have the tiers of quality based on how much you spend, but the verniers could be nice. I still think Mitutoyo has some potential quality issues in the calipers from the video, if only slight. Considering I spent a lot of money on those, logically they should be quality, but the brand, the amount of money spent or the country of origin might not mean as much we all want it to.
@@themeandrousengineer QA is catching up, or done outside China. Steel quality is still behind and will remain so.