For anyone commenting that ABUR Dual Lands should be in S Tier, here is the reply you will get: "OG Duals are in A Tier because they are largely unavailable. Price hardly factors into it at all. This is basically just a jab at the reserve list which we have hated on in several videos in the past. We don't like that these game pieces' supply cannot *ever* meet demand, which is the case for reserved list cards and zero other magic cards."
I think everyone understood why you rated them as you did. It was clear. It's just that people didn't think that was valid if you're ranking the dual lands just on how powerful we are and that's what people are really saying when they post that. I also disagree with the rating there but I thought this was a really fun video and enjoyed it otherwise :)
I recently took all my original dual lands out of my decks and found out it barely matters. There are enough good lands now that you don't really need them.
@@discoviolenza1984 I don't play any of mine in Commander either. I keep them for Legacy. They matter a lot more at comp levels in decks that are trying to abuse Ad Nauseam (which is another Legacy deck that doesn't function at all without OG duals, no shock swap possible). But still, they are strictly better than any of the others.
@@NitpickingNerds fetches are really overrated, they are good but there is no reason to play them in a 2 color deck unless it's landfall the deck thinning just isn't relevant in edh.
The enemy painlads are the first lands I buy for every deck where I can fit them. They definitely have the highest playability/cost ratio of all dual lands. I'll be very happy when they reprint the ally painlands into the ground.
The storage lands are bonkers if you have interactions with the counters. My Atraxa deck loves them. Notable things about them: they don’t need to be untapped to remove counters. and you can remove any amount of counters.
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 I never said that! You seem to be confused. Let me help you out: “storage lands are bonkers ***IF***” I highlighted the important part of the sentence since your reading comprehension seems to be on the poor side. I’ll explain further, so you won’t get confused again. The “implication” (a conclusion that can be drawn from something not explicitly stated) was that they aren’t good if you don’t have a way to manipulate the counters. I hope that helped. :)
They really do pop off with Atraxa, or ANY proliferate triggers. Notably, Evolution Sage, with a proliferate landfall triggers, and Flux Channeler, an Inexorable Tide on a body in blue. These are not hard-to-come-by cards, they're staples of the counters Archetype, which itself is a staple of the format. That other fool was trippppin
I think I will bring this idea to my playgroup, since they're common I'd have no problem just covering the snow and enters tapped with sharpie so they don't confuse the couple guys who built actual snow decks.
You guys are SERIOUSLY underrating bounce lands. SERIOUSLY. As you even stated - they are two lands in one card. Two. Makes a 3 land starting hand a 4 land starting hand if one is a bounce, AND you still have 4 playable cards in hand. One of my friends pretty much calls them card draw - when you play the card, your hand has the same number of cards in it after playing as before. And, because you can bounce a tapped land, there is at least as good a tempo as scry, bicycle, ect lands. Late game, bounce a scry land, get an additional scry. Or bounce a bicycle land, and cycle it. If you tap that bicycle land first, it only costs 1 additional mana to get that extra card draw. Early game, bounce a basic, then you get your fixing and you are able to not lose any tempo cause you can play your basic next turn. Bounce lands are: Fixing. Card Advantage. Double card advantage with cycling lands. Enabling of multiple strategies. Value in doubling a land's ETB. Bounce your MDFC spell lands. Bounce Lands are B Tier.
I pretty much will only use them in decks that want to play multiple lands in a turn or in a deck that wants to use stuff like Amulet of Vigor. That or budget decks. Even decent fixing for my Naya deck.
People like to use the bounce lands because they think it's an advantage. But you can't play them t1, t2 you take back a land and have access to 1 mana instead of 2 ( still 2 mana ) and t3 when you play your 3rd land, you have access to 2 lands...again equalling 3 mana. So you save 1 potential draw for a MUCH slower hand. And any other bounce land after that, delays your turns again. This means you're not playing anything till turn 3 unless it's 1 mana. So you're not really ahead unless you start with exploration. And the ''card advantage'' doesn't even make sense because it still forces you to draw into more lands or else all you did was not playing anything for 2 turns. Also, it forces you to discard a card at the end of t2 because you have 7 cards t1 ( after initial landfall ), t2 you have 8, play bounce land, bring back a land and now you have 8 again. And the last thing....strip mine.... which a lot of people run. If you play a tap land and someone starts blowing lands up, you're getting 2 for oned and if it's early game, you may as well just scoop. Unless you're playing a 2 color landfall deck or titanshift, i would really consider getting something else unless you're on a budget.
The blue and white storage land specifically is very powerful in a control/ flash/ blink based deck or similar, where you keep your mana open until the end of the enemy turns anyway. Allows you to pool unspent mana and eventually there will be a turn where you play Draining Whelk and Bogardan Hellkite at once..
The Golgari man land has deathtouch, so it can sometimes be a surprise trading blocker. Then again, I don’t run it anywhere, so it doesn’t go everywhere.
This aged well. The pain lands getting reprinted in a massive standard product was amazing ! Most are under a buck! Totally got a ton of them for my decks. Also Yavimaya coast art is gorgeous
Those are essentially just tapped duals. Slightly better if you have to mana fix for 3+ colors but as they said, there are better available choices in 3 color
I agree from an availability and pricing standpoint, but OG duals are S-tier. You shouldn't let those factors influence their placement. If Shock lands or guildgates suddenly jumped their prices to the 100's of dollars would you knock them down a tier? Og duals were once cheap, but now expensive. I don't think that changes the power level of that card. Especially when your title is "Dual Land Tier List | Your Complete Guide to Dual Lands in Commander" something like this might confuse newer players. Love the content your making, Keep it up.
They wouldn’t because shocks and fetches can be reprinted and would never go that high. OG duals will never be printed again. They also explain their reasoning in the first few minutes, I really don’t think anyone would get confused tbh
@@RussianPS3 I'm sorry do you have a crystal ball that can see the future? Back when the RL was made people said the same about Duals. Revised was printed to oblivion, they will never be expensive, and yet here we are. Now, do I really believe that shocks or other lands will get that high, NO. This is a Tier list video on dual lands said to be a complete guide, and it's not. If OG Duals are not listed correctly it's not a complete guide. Have you ever played one of those mobile games where people spend ridiculous amount of money on summons for a specific character? They tend to be the best ones in the game. Yet they have low drop chances and people have to spend crazy money to get them. for the purpose of tier-list money does not influence the power of a card, the stats do that. While I understand their logic in the video I believe it to be flawed from a tier list perspective, but ultimately it's their video they can do whatever they want with it. I wrote that comment in a hope that it would help because recently they keep bashing the RL because of its price in almost every video. Sometimes you just have to accept what it is and move on. The Ides for videos they have made recently I have loved, but stop beating the same dead horse. Hope this helps clarify things.
@@shaneskeffington4310 I agree with them that the reserve list should go but you can speak against the reserve list without misrepresenting the cards on it.
Storage lands ( 30:42 ) are definetly poop-tier... unless you are playing Atraxa or with any Proliferate-shenanigans, then they rise straight up to A tier (or even S) :D
I'm running the Dimir one in Zaxara without much proliferate stuff, just for having a way to store unspent mana over a few turns. I'm not sure how good it is yet though, bc Rhona.
Agreed. I’d also recommend “city of shadows” for even crazier Atraxa land shenanigans. The recent reserve list buyouts have made it quite expensive though.
Think of the bounce lands as a tapland that gives you a single card card advantage. You play lands 3 times, you get 3 mana after 3 turns. But now you've only needed to use two cards for it.
I agree, i think the bounce lands are quite underrated... In a vaccuum, yes they dont do much besides fixing your mana. But combine them with 'spell lands' like Mystic Sactuary, Bojuka Bog of any of the MDFC's and the bouncelands become a lot better. If your deck has some ETB's on the lands i recommend looking at the bouncelands. Besides that, the're so cheap, so any budget deck can afford them.
One of my favorite things about magic is all the nicknames for cards. My favorites for the lands are man lands, bicycle lands and crowd lands. Great video guys, keep it up
Batteries land (storage) are actually not poop, I always put at least 1 in every deck, they tap for colorless if you need but it can lead to some pretty explosive turns later on, the key is to spend your mana doing things and only put counters when you have some leftovers. they produce both colors in any combination and if you play any proliferate shenanigan you can get quite a payout from these. def better then a straight up tap land
They're useful in (X) cast decks such as Hydra Simics or in any deck where you might end up having 1 mana left floating at the end of any of your turns.
@@wolftree6365 which is fairly frequently, if you're holding up mana for interaction, or have some floating mana at the end of any given phase. Also they could benefit from any proliferate triggers that occur. Low C ordinarily, high A with synergy.
My personal experience with bounce lands is that they are super niche for combos, but unless you have a way to really abuse them, they’re like top of poop tier. They’ve just never been all that great and are usually a tempo loss. Gain lands I’d say are better because while they only give you one life, that’s one more point of damage an opponent needs to deal, that’s one more Necropotence activation, that’s one more mana for a card cast off of Bolas’s Citadel. One more life in general is, while barely noticeable, going to be far better on average than returning a land. In my experience, at least. Obviously, if you have landfall effects and/or can play multiple lands a turn, bounce lands look much better, but so do storage lands in Atraxa. But again, my personal experience has me putting them in poop with the storage lands for the average deck.
The idea is that the bounce lands enters tap but "draw" you a land card. In practice they are way worse, but if you had a single dual land in your deck, the bounce is the best of the tapped bunch
Now you have to do a tri land video, although that would be pretty short: S: Triome lands C: tap lands from Shards and Khans D: Murmering Bosk, and Tournament Grounds Poop: Crypt of the Eternals, Invasion Sac lands, Lair type lands, and Homelands lands at the bottom
If you have any "come into play" lands the lairs aren't all bad as they enter untapped and you can tap what you return. They do slow you down a bit if you have the lands in hand however.
The enemy pain lands are the best budget option. I hope WOTC reprints all of the ally cycle sometime. I can't believe they haven't reprinted some of them since 10th edition.
If you put slow fetches into C because of landfall triggers, then bounce lands belong there too. Plus bounce lands also let you reuse other ETBs like Bojuka Bog.
@@mr.dreampants8095 They didn't know what set it was, meaning they are newer players, we love them Cuz we grew up with them. But yea the art is beautiful!
@@joachimwessmark2601 They didn't know what set it was, meaning they are newer players, we love them Cuz we grew up with them. But yea the art is beautiful!
@@peterrevilla1828 You might be right, I guess it's hard do differentiate between nostalgia and actual preference sometimes. Still love the old style though.
I have come to love signet lands for allowing colorless sources in 5 color decks. Makes running ancient tomb and sol ring in Golos way better. Also the nonred ones are super good with rituals like jeska's will
18:09 : Wrong image pulled up xD * I would argue that the filters should probably belong right next to the Check lands - the Check land requires you to have one of the two basic land types available, Filter lands just require any source that produces that colour (also going to have some serious issues if you don't get the proper colour on the next turn - also turn 1 isn't a real argument between these two since neither produce colour on turn 1 anyway) * I'd maybe argue for the filters going up to C - for one major reason, you can turn colourless mana into coloured mana (say you have a Mind Stone or something for example), that said it can't produce mana on its own, but that isn't really a problem after turn 1. (Obviously 2 colour-only)
Signet lands are amazing from trasforming colorless mana into colored. I played a couple of them even in certain cedh decks, to transform mana from sol ring / mana crypt / mana vault into colored mana. They definitely should be rated higher
Every Commander player (especially new players!) should watch this. Great content, as always, gentlemen. I'll for sure be passing this one around! Great info!!
@@NitpickingNerds I actually really liked the way you described how some lands like the pain lands and check lands were good -- stuff that may not be obvious to new players. I also really liked that you called out the ones that have basic land types, as that is also something newer players don't always see the value in. Great stuff, I'M SURE!!!!
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 you’re right, however straight out the gate these guys only gave ABU duals an ‘A’ because of price, so perhaps a price range could be given. Great vid though 😀
We gave them an A because of availability. At some point no more commander decks can have them, and we think that's pretty dumb (and it also affects gameplay)
In my experience, the signet filter lands are surprisingly playable in specifically budget 5 color decks that require producing WUBRG. When I build those decks, they tend to overproduce green (because mana dorks are super easy cheap ramp), so having Signets and signet filter lands actually comes in pretty handy. Decks should definitely be built with manabase in mind though, so gotta avoid double blue counterspells and such.
I definitely disagree about bounce lands. The fact that you essentially get an additional land card to play on your next turn is quite powerful. I don't find it too compelling to worry about wasteland/stripmine, as not only is it generally frowned upon to use land removal on non-threatening lands, going down a land to make an opponent go down two lands is less impactful when you have two more opponents who are now essentially a turn ahead of you.
I 100% agree with this. In my play group, almost nobody runs land destruction. And even if they did, they would never waste it on blowing up my bounce land. Doesn’t seem that impactful truly. You’re much better using the land destruction on a utility land such as Academy Ruins, War Room, etc.
I like the storage lands. Leave mana up for a response, if you don't need it, add a counter. Then on like turn 9 when everyone's stopped paying attention and big dick plays are starting OOPS 6 extra mana.
Finally, someone who agrees about Pathways! I see them as a auto include in two colors, but past that they are not worth playing. I love that Murmuring Bosk is just arbitrarily a Forest making it fetchable, and its also a pain land. The land is just a mess, and I love it for that reasons. I run it in Kathril just because it is fetchable, and makes all three of my colors. I have no way to make it come in untapped in that deck..........
The reason bosk is a forest is because the treefolk harbinger tutors a treefolk or a forest to the top (likely at some point in their designs they were actual Tribal Land types, then they decided against it)
@@The_MechaGojira yes, bosk seems to be given the forest type to let harbinger search for it (and the harbinger search for a forest to let it bring his tribal land). That said, they didnt make the same thing for the other ones, thats why i think they were intended to be tribal lands before they scrapped the cobcept (but liked the harbringer/bosk interaction and shought a way to preserve it)
I think you are definitely wrong about pathways they are great, yea they aren't fetchable but most people don't play fetches and fetches are over rated in edh, basic land ramp can't grab them but if you aren't playing green that doesn't matter and they are strictly better than a basic to top deck.
I largely agree with your list. The only ones I'd rank higher are the storage lands, since they enter untapped and can potentially ramp you. I like them in proliferate decks.
Great video! Thank you. I have played MTG off and on for twenty+ years and this video was super helpful as a list for what is available. I have missed half of these when they came out and it's nice to know of their existence. It's crazy to see some of the really good ones ive had in the past, that ive gotten rid of. Commander really changed up MTG in mostly great ways.
I love my bounce lands. Its weird cause I have put plenty of money in my decks but I just refuse to pay like $40 dollars plus for a land card. All my shocks and fetches are proxies on top of my D tier lands. If someone doesn't like that I just pull the proxy out and play my awesome cards with slower lands
I know they speak from a position of higher levels of play than I'm at, but I LOVE bounce lands. I'm new to the game still, but anything that lets me play a land and guarantee one for next turn without really losing anything has a home in my deck.
I really enjoy this list. The one I really disagree with and wanted to talk about are bounce lands. My experience with these is that they are amazing in small numbers (1-3 copies per deck). The reason is that they basically are a tapped dual land that draws you a card (returning a land to your hand but then tapping for two is basically drawing a land). You don’t want to play too many because they obvious do not synergize well with each other (you would never want to have to bounce another bounce land). But the card value you get is great and they help you not miss your land drops. And they also synergize well with MDFC lands, since when you bounce a MDFC it’s like drawing a spell. Overall I think most power level 7 or so decks that play MDFCs want at least one bounce land.
The Best of the tribal lands from that cycle was the treefolk one, Murmuring. It makes 3 colors and it is a Forest so it is fetchable. It taps for a green because it is a forest and it also a Pain land for BW. A Doran staple.
At first I didn't like the new snow duals because they come in tapped, but I've tested them a bit now and have found them really useful for my Turn 1 fetch target if I don't have a turn 1 play instead of grabbing my shock and putting it in tapped.
Dual lands are S tier. The tier list shouldn't be based on price. The list should be based on how good it is. Then the people decide if its to much to spend.
Another downside to filter lands is, you cannot make a single mana to play one spell and leave the other mana up to cast another spell on a later turn. So on turn two if you want to play a 1 mana creature and hold mana up for a 1 mana instant response, you just cannot with them. Same is true for signet lands. They are still great lands though.
Nice list, only one i would personally shift up a tier is the pathways. I play these even in 3 color spread so long as im running all 3 of the potential combinations of pathway, and I tell you it works out for me more often than not. Never really had issue with dead draws or a damned if you do/dont situation with them. Yeah it sucks that once you play them the placement on the land is permanent (unless you have bounce) but all i care about early and mid game is fixing my mana and the pathways do that beautifully, don't come with a caveat and dont come into play tapped.
The pathways being almost strictly better than a basic means I think they should rank higher. Any deck where you're considering a basic they go in, unless you need a critical mass of basics for a green ramp package. I think they're slam dunks in 2 color and still very good in 3.
Pathway is underestimated its a B absolutely no Downside to basics. Very good Lands maybe even an A. And no, old Taplands are not ugly. Especially the red Green one. But fighting about poop or nearly poop is riddiculous, so whatever. Reveal and scry should switch places too. Its only scry1, and reveal in a 2 colour Dech has nearly no Downside in the Beginning.
Just out of curiosity. Did Thriving Lands didn't make the cut because people only consider them for 3 or more colors? (in 2 colors they are the same as tap lands, poop in my opinion) But they are dual lands right?
Uhhh they're KIND of dual lands, but they feel more like Vivid lands where they're always one color but can fix for 5c. Although to be clear we kinda hate the vivids and think thriving lands are decent fixing for budget 4-5C
Loved this video. Been a lot harder recently with more and more "dual lands" getting printed to know how each compared to one another. Listening to this during work, would be nice to have some music in the background on low. Anyway, keep up the good work! :)
Appreciate this video. The only one I completely disagree with is the signet lands - which I've found to be great for mana conversion of colorless mana sources (artifacts and utility lands). They allow plays like turn 1 utility land (colorless land), turn 2 both colors available.
I think the main argument is, yes OG dual lands are better, but are they one to five hundred times better. No way. Price should definitely be factored into a teir list when it comes to things like this.
I largely agree with this list, except for the signet lands. I don't think it matters much that they don't do anything t1, since you should have another land in hand that can be played t1 (if you don't, why did you keep that hand!?). I would have put them in C personally. Having said all that, there are so many dual land cards I can also see why they would be lower on the priority list.
How on earth can you justify putting the Reveal lands in D tier and then the Tribal lands in B??? They both involve revealing a card to come in untapped except the Reveal lands have a much larger subset of decks they can go in. In a tribal deck, you have, optimistically, a 30% of being able to reveal a card for the Tribal land. Whereas in ANY two color deck the Reveal lands can go in, you have a 15-20% chance, between the amount of basics and lands that have two types. Even though it's a lower chance to be able to come in untapped, it's easier to tutor a basic to hand then a creature, and the sheer availability of decks it can go in mean they deserve a much higher tier.
Filter lands should be above checklands. In turn one a checkland doesn't give mana and if you have other duo lands without types they will come tapped. While filter lands in turn one at least give colorless and function with other lands despite the types and even mana rocks, furthermore they give the upside of transforming one mana source if needed to give double of the same color.
I think Pathways will turn out to be letter than people think. Sure there are some drawbacks, but overall you know which color you need in most situations. Maybe weakest at the beginning of a game. Oh yeah and I don't care if they are all a $1000; Old school Duals will always be S tier. :)
Great video, and very helpful! I'm fairly new to EDH, and honing in my mana bases has been an interesting if at times a little frustrating challenge. A lot of good notes here to consider -- thanks!
the snow tap duals are actually c tier imo because they have land types and are fetchable. played them in a tasigur list to fix my colours when using farseek natures lore or three visits.
IMO Filter lands should move up to A; Tango lands, Pathways, and Fast lands should move up to B; and Bounce lands should move up to C. I understand them lowering the OG duals to A because of their scarcity and insanely high price, but if we base them solely on their power level in game they are obviously S tier.
Nice tier list! I agree with everything except: The odyssey signet lands are way better than D, more likely B. Always untapped, produces 2 different colors. Sure sometimes you'd rather use 2 lands to get double of one color, but having one land that turns generic into 2 colors means that it can turn colorless producing lands like wasteland into color producing. Sometimes you'd wish they were producing mana on turn one, but that goes for the other filter lands as well as far as color is concerned. I suppose turn 1 sol ring, mana vault, skull clamp etc are exceptions. Also, just as with the other filter lands they do combo with Mana Reflection. So compared to the other filter lands that you put in B, I'd say the signet lands should be just below them or at least high C.
Bounce lands are underrated. They are two taplands in one card, they are amazing card advantage engines. They are great with land tax, and sometimes you are paying colors with limited draw options and they are great for keeping cards in hand. (Or dumping cards into your yard to reanimate) And they let you bog twice!
And then fetchlands are also on the expensive side for most and they didn't demote it at all. The logic would put most things more in the middle as bad is cheap and good usually is expensive.
Yeah, the OG dual lands are the dual lands by which every other land is compared. They are literally all upside as far as lands go with the only downside being that they are nonbasic, which they kinda have to be by rule. They have to be S tier by nature!
Maybe we could have said this better at the time, but we've said it before in previous videos so we must have assumed people already knew our take on it. Dual Lands got A tier because they are completely unavailable. The price barely factors into this at all. There are a limited number of Dual Lands that exist and not being able to get one for that reason is really ridiculous in our opinion
@@NitpickingNerds I get your perspective! Love the content. But I just went to eBay and the big card stores which had availability on nearly all the duals. If a player wants one, they can order one. I might get that argument for those specialty cards that WOTC prints for their employees, but the original duals CAN be bought at anytime.
Oh, and there are *almost* enough tutor hating cards to reliably hose fetches these days, between stranglehold, aven mindcensor, opposition agent, and blood moon... And it's really rad to grab stranglehold or opp agent with a wishclaw...
Thanks for this, I started magic again after 10+ years and there are so many new cycles of lands and things for mana bases (what dk you mean no one plays darksteel ingot anymore?). I feel like since most of your lists don't take into account budget you should just slot the ABUR at the top of A tier since that is really where they are if you're not considering price. That or make their own section or just leave them off.
Excellent video. The fact is: some of the “dual lands” are better than others. The originals from ABUR are amazing, no doubt, but I understand not putting them in S tier. It’s a bold statement, but it’s true that they simply aren’t accessible to most EDH players. And yes.... I absolutely appreciate that comment about the reserve list. It’s spot on - and I’m saying this as a 27-year MTG player with plenty of RL cards.
Great video, these are a little tricky to search out for folks who haven't been playing legacy and modern! I will say, though, when you say "guildgates" you show Rakdos Carnarium which should be a bounceland, right? at 18:08
OK, so let me explain why your concept for Bounce and storage is wrong. Unless you were doing CEDH. In not hyper-competitive, the bounce allows you to open with fewer lands without worrying about a land drop. The Storage is best with Blue or anything that you want instant interaction. Since it allows you to bluff counterspells or anything else on color support as it interaction. So in that case you should easy be able to store 3-5 mana on one. So to explain it better you use storage for bluff not color fixing. You use bounce to help with land drops
Cheap signet lands- Kadena precon. Turn 1 forest sol ring. Turn 2 played the Dimir Signet land, played Kadena, played a morph, draw a card. Only time I ever appreciated the signet land.
They were printed to death for like 5 core editions in a row, 6th to 10th, in addition to starter packs for for example Mercadian Masques, Nemesis, Invasion etc. how are they not accessible?!?
The reason why the original duel lands are "limited" is simply because the print runs were limited to start with. Magic did pickup in popularity overnight like any other TCG. So print runs were way limited. The reason they were not reprinted originally wasn't over the Reserve List issue. At the time it didn't exist. Early on they began to realize that some cards are "degenerate". Meaning they gave a huge advantage to the player using them. Black Lotus literally gave you a three turn mana advantage that could lock the other player down in the early start of a game. The duel lands were to strong. They made duel colors and counted as both land types with no drawback. Until deck limitations restricted us to four copies of any card outside basic lands there was no reason to even use basic lands when you just could have a mana base with nothing but duel lands. Today we now have so many choices in duel lands that it's really just a novelty to use the originals. Fetch lands and Shocks are amazing substitutes and really just balance the field more unlike it used to be.
The Storage lands are niche But i ran em in my Atraxa deck because she would proliferate the counters and make a butt ton of mana from removing the 10 counters id proliferate onto them
Genuine question about why the reveal lands are so low? I get they drop off as soon as you go to more than 2 colours but if you're playing a 2 colour deck surely they're better than the pathways?
There's no reason to argue about art on a year old video, but the old tap lands look better than the new ones. That's just because I started playing with revised cards and it's a nostalgia thing. I always use depletion and old taps over new ones.
I think bounce lands should've been rated a little higher. They are very good for getting landfall triggers. So, say you have an Oracle of Mul Daya or something similar out, you can play a bounce and bounce itself multiple times per turn.
Trying to make my unfinished Golos(lands/landfall focused) deck a home for gates/mazes end, but what other lands are okay to add as well? I do have a number of creatures that add extra lands a turn or can play them off the top. Can I add the new dual snow lands as well? *I plan to have 40-45 lands in this deck*, p.s. I dont own fetches :)
I think availability shouldn't matter in a tier list, they're unavailable but when people think tier it's usually that they expect you to rank the strongest.
The only one you guys are largely undervaluing is signet lands. Auto-include in 2 color decks, okay in 3 color. Final grade: B Logic: 1. You guys say they don't do anything on turn 1. What one land hands are you keeping? This is never the outcome. 2. These never come into play tapped instantly puts them in C tier or above- floor with the lack of tempo loss. 3. They filter your colorless mana freely. Do you play sol rings, mana crypts, cavern of souls, mind stones, strip mines, wastelands, filter lands, ancient tombs, mana vaults, Grim monoliths, command beacons, metalworkers, painlands? Of course you do! Filter the colorless into colored mana!
pathways should be the same tier as fetches after all unless you're playing a deck where you can get fetches back or you want more landfall triggers than pathways are effectively the same if not better. besides they're also just a far cheaper solution to the same problem. Edit: they're also just generally better than basics so I wouldn't only use them in two color decks Edit 2: now that I think about it fetch lands are better because you can fetch some dual lands rather than just basics but, pathways should at least be higher up on the list.
For anyone commenting that ABUR Dual Lands should be in S Tier, here is the reply you will get: "OG Duals are in A Tier because they are largely unavailable. Price hardly factors into it at all. This is basically just a jab at the reserve list which we have hated on in several videos in the past. We don't like that these game pieces' supply cannot *ever* meet demand, which is the case for reserved list cards and zero other magic cards."
I think everyone understood why you rated them as you did. It was clear. It's just that people didn't think that was valid if you're ranking the dual lands just on how powerful we are and that's what people are really saying when they post that.
I also disagree with the rating there but I thought this was a really fun video and enjoyed it otherwise :)
poop face! respect my authoritah!
I think they should have been placed in poop tier to really send a message :p
I recently took all my original dual lands out of my decks and found out it barely matters. There are enough good lands now that you don't really need them.
@@discoviolenza1984 I don't play any of mine in Commander either. I keep them for Legacy. They matter a lot more at comp levels in decks that are trying to abuse Ad Nauseam (which is another Legacy deck that doesn't function at all without OG duals, no shock swap possible). But still, they are strictly better than any of the others.
Should have given OG duals and Fetches their own tier: U for unavailibility
Also, Fetches are 5 color lands, change my mind
Fetches are DEFINITELY five color lands, although we decided to lump them into the duals. Easily the best lands ever printed!
@@NitpickingNerds fetches are really overrated, they are good but there is no reason to play them in a 2 color deck unless it's landfall the deck thinning just isn't relevant in edh.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 depends, if you can fetch mystic sanctuary in 2c then it's still likely worth
@@AsgneonthebesT only if you are playing a very specific type of blue deck, mystic sanctuary is in the same over rated boat.
I love how you guys are very politely fighting about Fast lands the whole video.
The enemy painlads are the first lands I buy for every deck where I can fit them. They definitely have the highest playability/cost ratio of all dual lands. I'll be very happy when they reprint the ally painlands into the ground.
1:48 ABUR
2:49 BICYCLE
3:38 BOUNCE
4:59 CANOPY
6:44 CHECK
7:40 CREATURE
9:02 CROWD
10:17 DEPLETION
10:53 FAST
12:50 FETCH
15:35 FILTER
17:18 GAIN
18:07 GATES
18:43 KAMIGAWA
19:14 NEW TAPPED
19:45 OLD TAPPED
20:45 PAIN
21:42 PATHWAYS
22:43 REFUGES
23:07 REVEAL
24:14 SCRY
25:33 SHOCK
26:30 SIGNET
27:43 SLOW FETCHES
28:50 SNOW DUALS
30:21 STAY TAPPED
30:42 STORAGE
31:49 TAINTED
33:13 TANGO
34:04 TAPPED PAIN
35:13 T.T.SNOW
35:43 TRIBAL
One day there’s gonna be a episode of a tier lists of all the tier lists!
Ooooo for when we inevitably jump the shark
I'm here for it
Please actually do that! Thatd be so funny
@@NitpickingNerds is edh shark tribal a thing if so I may need to do something?
@@demolisherman1763 I would love to see that
The storage lands are bonkers if you have interactions with the counters. My Atraxa deck loves them. Notable things about them: they don’t need to be untapped to remove counters. and you can remove any amount of counters.
"This very bad card is not bad in this very specific scenario! Therefore its not bad at all!"
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 I never said that! You seem to be confused. Let me help you out: “storage lands are bonkers ***IF***” I highlighted the important part of the sentence since your reading comprehension seems to be on the poor side. I’ll explain further, so you won’t get confused again. The “implication” (a conclusion that can be drawn from something not explicitly stated) was that they aren’t good if you don’t have a way to manipulate the counters. I hope that helped. :)
They really do pop off with Atraxa, or ANY proliferate triggers. Notably, Evolution Sage, with a proliferate landfall triggers, and Flux Channeler, an Inexorable Tide on a body in blue.
These are not hard-to-come-by cards, they're staples of the counters Archetype, which itself is a staple of the format.
That other fool was trippppin
I'm so glad my playgroup has decided to errata the new snow dual lands to just be OG duels, no snow and no tapped
I actually heard about a lot of people doing that! How has it been going?
@@NitpickingNerds most of us already have duels, it's nice to bring everyone to equal levels and also not have to shuffle $600+ lands
This is genius!
I think I will bring this idea to my playgroup, since they're common I'd have no problem just covering the snow and enters tapped with sharpie so they don't confuse the couple guys who built actual snow decks.
big brain
You guys are SERIOUSLY underrating bounce lands. SERIOUSLY.
As you even stated - they are two lands in one card. Two. Makes a 3 land starting hand a 4 land starting hand if one is a bounce, AND you still have 4 playable cards in hand. One of my friends pretty much calls them card draw - when you play the card, your hand has the same number of cards in it after playing as before. And, because you can bounce a tapped land, there is at least as good a tempo as scry, bicycle, ect lands. Late game, bounce a scry land, get an additional scry. Or bounce a bicycle land, and cycle it. If you tap that bicycle land first, it only costs 1 additional mana to get that extra card draw. Early game, bounce a basic, then you get your fixing and you are able to not lose any tempo cause you can play your basic next turn.
Bounce lands are: Fixing. Card Advantage. Double card advantage with cycling lands. Enabling of multiple strategies. Value in doubling a land's ETB. Bounce your MDFC spell lands.
Bounce Lands are B Tier.
I pretty much will only use them in decks that want to play multiple lands in a turn or in a deck that wants to use stuff like Amulet of Vigor. That or budget decks. Even decent fixing for my Naya deck.
People like to use the bounce lands because they think it's an advantage. But you can't play them t1, t2 you take back a land and have access to 1 mana instead of 2 ( still 2 mana ) and t3 when you play your 3rd land, you have access to 2 lands...again equalling 3 mana. So you save 1 potential draw for a MUCH slower hand. And any other bounce land after that, delays your turns again.
This means you're not playing anything till turn 3 unless it's 1 mana. So you're not really ahead unless you start with exploration. And the ''card advantage'' doesn't even make sense because it still forces you to draw into more lands or else all you did was not playing anything for 2 turns. Also, it forces you to discard a card at the end of t2 because you have 7 cards t1 ( after initial landfall ), t2 you have 8, play bounce land, bring back a land and now you have 8 again. And the last thing....strip mine.... which a lot of people run. If you play a tap land and someone starts blowing lands up, you're getting 2 for oned and if it's early game, you may as well just scoop.
Unless you're playing a 2 color landfall deck or titanshift, i would really consider getting something else unless you're on a budget.
The blue and white storage land specifically is very powerful in a control/ flash/ blink based deck or similar, where you keep your mana open until the end of the enemy turns anyway. Allows you to pool unspent mana and eventually there will be a turn where you play Draining Whelk and Bogardan Hellkite at once..
The Golgari man land has deathtouch, so it can sometimes be a surprise trading blocker. Then again, I don’t run it anywhere, so it doesn’t go everywhere.
Yeah we think the creature lands are pretty bad, but four of them have fringe uses and I'd play any of them in a budget deck
the ones you put counters on are honesty pretty good with vorinclex. turn into a 6/6 not a 3/3
This aged well. The pain lands getting reprinted in a massive standard product was amazing ! Most are under a buck! Totally got a ton of them for my decks. Also Yavimaya coast art is gorgeous
What about choice lands, from jumpstart where they produce one pre-chosen color and one other color?
Thriving lands? They're better than tapped dual lands but theyre still tapoed
@@qwteb - and not fetchable.
They're decent budget lands in 3+ color decks
Those are essentially just tapped duals. Slightly better if you have to mana fix for 3+ colors but as they said, there are better available choices in 3 color
I agree from an availability and pricing standpoint, but OG duals are S-tier. You shouldn't let those factors influence their placement. If Shock lands or guildgates suddenly jumped their prices to the 100's of dollars would you knock them down a tier? Og duals were once cheap, but now expensive. I don't think that changes the power level of that card. Especially when your title is "Dual Land Tier List | Your Complete Guide to Dual Lands in Commander" something like this might confuse newer players. Love the content your making, Keep it up.
They wouldn’t because shocks and fetches can be reprinted and would never go that high. OG duals will never be printed again. They also explain their reasoning in the first few minutes, I really don’t think anyone would get confused tbh
@@RussianPS3 I'm sorry do you have a crystal ball that can see the future? Back when the RL was made people said the same about Duals. Revised was printed to oblivion, they will never be expensive, and yet here we are. Now, do I really believe that shocks or other lands will get that high, NO. This is a Tier list video on dual lands said to be a complete guide, and it's not. If OG Duals are not listed correctly it's not a complete guide. Have you ever played one of those mobile games where people spend ridiculous amount of money on summons for a specific character? They tend to be the best ones in the game. Yet they have low drop chances and people have to spend crazy money to get them. for the purpose of tier-list money does not influence the power of a card, the stats do that. While I understand their logic in the video I believe it to be flawed from a tier list perspective, but ultimately it's their video they can do whatever they want with it. I wrote that comment in a hope that it would help because recently they keep bashing the RL because of its price in almost every video. Sometimes you just have to accept what it is and move on. The Ides for videos they have made recently I have loved, but stop beating the same dead horse. Hope this helps clarify things.
@@shaneskeffington4310 I agree with them that the reserve list should go but you can speak against the reserve list without misrepresenting the cards on it.
Storage lands ( 30:42 ) are definetly poop-tier... unless you are playing Atraxa or with any Proliferate-shenanigans, then they rise straight up to A tier (or even S) :D
Storage lands are a big trap in Atraxa, because she demands FOUR different colors. One in your first turns will kill your plans so hard...
I'm running the Dimir one in Zaxara without much proliferate stuff, just for having a way to store unspent mana over a few turns. I'm not sure how good it is yet though, bc Rhona.
Agreed. I’d also recommend “city of shadows” for even crazier Atraxa land shenanigans. The recent reserve list buyouts have made it quite expensive though.
Think of the bounce lands as a tapland that gives you a single card card advantage. You play lands 3 times, you get 3 mana after 3 turns. But now you've only needed to use two cards for it.
I agree, i think the bounce lands are quite underrated...
In a vaccuum, yes they dont do much besides fixing your mana. But combine them with 'spell lands' like Mystic Sactuary, Bojuka Bog of any of the MDFC's and the bouncelands become a lot better. If your deck has some ETB's on the lands i recommend looking at the bouncelands. Besides that, the're so cheap, so any budget deck can afford them.
One of my favorite things about magic is all the nicknames for cards. My favorites for the lands are man lands, bicycle lands and crowd lands. Great video guys, keep it up
So where do the "artifact taplands" and the "campuses" go on this list?
Campuses are poop tier definitely
Batteries land (storage) are actually not poop, I always put at least 1 in every deck, they tap for colorless if you need but it can lead to some pretty explosive turns later on, the key is to spend your mana doing things and only put counters when you have some leftovers. they produce both colors in any combination and if you play any proliferate shenanigan you can get quite a payout from these. def better then a straight up tap land
They're useful in (X) cast decks such as Hydra Simics or in any deck where you might end up having 1 mana left floating at the end of any of your turns.
@@wolftree6365 which is fairly frequently, if you're holding up mana for interaction, or have some floating mana at the end of any given phase.
Also they could benefit from any proliferate triggers that occur. Low C ordinarily, high A with synergy.
My personal experience with bounce lands is that they are super niche for combos, but unless you have a way to really abuse them, they’re like top of poop tier. They’ve just never been all that great and are usually a tempo loss. Gain lands I’d say are better because while they only give you one life, that’s one more point of damage an opponent needs to deal, that’s one more Necropotence activation, that’s one more mana for a card cast off of Bolas’s Citadel. One more life in general is, while barely noticeable, going to be far better on average than returning a land. In my experience, at least. Obviously, if you have landfall effects and/or can play multiple lands a turn, bounce lands look much better, but so do storage lands in Atraxa. But again, my personal experience has me putting them in poop with the storage lands for the average deck.
The idea is that the bounce lands enters tap but "draw" you a land card. In practice they are way worse, but if you had a single dual land in your deck, the bounce is the best of the tapped bunch
Now you have to do a tri land video, although that would be pretty short:
S: Triome lands
C: tap lands from Shards and Khans
D: Murmering Bosk, and Tournament Grounds
Poop: Crypt of the Eternals, Invasion Sac lands, Lair type lands, and Homelands lands at the bottom
SO MANY POOP TRILANDS
Man, it's hard to find someone who even remembers the Lair lands XD
If you have any "come into play" lands the lairs aren't all bad as they enter untapped and you can tap what you return. They do slow you down a bit if you have the lands in hand however.
Don't you dare disrespecting my Homelands-Cycle like that!
The enemy pain lands are the best budget option. I hope WOTC reprints all of the ally cycle sometime. I can't believe they haven't reprinted some of them since 10th edition.
It's been so long! Couldn't they have made their way into a core set or something by now?
@@NitpickingNerds they are too busy reprinting temples into core sets
If you put slow fetches into C because of landfall triggers, then bounce lands belong there too. Plus bounce lands also let you reuse other ETBs like Bojuka Bog.
Old and ugly? The invasion tap lands are gorgeous
Yes, Thank you
I felt personally attacked lol
@@mr.dreampants8095 They didn't know what set it was, meaning they are newer players, we love them Cuz we grew up with them. But yea the art is beautiful!
@@joachimwessmark2601 They didn't know what set it was, meaning they are newer players, we love them Cuz we grew up with them. But yea the art is beautiful!
@@peterrevilla1828 You might be right, I guess it's hard do differentiate between nostalgia and actual preference sometimes. Still love the old style though.
I would rate the Bicycle lands B if I compare it too their C counterparts. A toer better imho. Cyclable, fetchable👍🏻
I have come to love signet lands for allowing colorless sources in 5 color decks. Makes running ancient tomb and sol ring in Golos way better. Also the nonred ones are super good with rituals like jeska's will
I agree! I use signet lands in non-green decks that run colorless rocks. You can add Mana Crypt in there for what the signet lands work well with.
18:09 : Wrong image pulled up xD
* I would argue that the filters should probably belong right next to the Check lands - the Check land requires you to have one of the two basic land types available, Filter lands just require any source that produces that colour (also going to have some serious issues if you don't get the proper colour on the next turn - also turn 1 isn't a real argument between these two since neither produce colour on turn 1 anyway)
* I'd maybe argue for the filters going up to C - for one major reason, you can turn colourless mana into coloured mana (say you have a Mind Stone or something for example), that said it can't produce mana on its own, but that isn't really a problem after turn 1. (Obviously 2 colour-only)
Beat me to it lol
They can´t turn colourless into coloured Mana
Signet lands are amazing from trasforming colorless mana into colored. I played a couple of them even in certain cedh decks, to transform mana from sol ring / mana crypt / mana vault into colored mana. They definitely should be rated higher
I like to refer to the tapped-pain lands, “Pain in the A**” lands.
*comedy drums*
Every Commander player (especially new players!) should watch this. Great content, as always, gentlemen. I'll for sure be passing this one around! Great info!!
Are you sure? We only put duals in A lol :P
@@NitpickingNerds I actually really liked the way you described how some lands like the pain lands and check lands were good -- stuff that may not be obvious to new players. I also really liked that you called out the ones that have basic land types, as that is also something newer players don't always see the value in. Great stuff, I'M SURE!!!!
When deck building, I always ask the question "Would I rather draw a basic over this?" If yes, I do not include it. Keeps it simple.
Small recommendation, put the price range on screen for each type, highest and lowest in the cycle, so that they can be judged on price
i dont think price should be a concern when evaluating cards usefulness/power
@@dino-wer-kuh3498 you’re right, however straight out the gate these guys only gave ABU duals an ‘A’ because of price, so perhaps a price range could be given. Great vid though 😀
We gave them an A because of availability. At some point no more commander decks can have them, and we think that's pretty dumb (and it also affects gameplay)
In my experience, the signet filter lands are surprisingly playable in specifically budget 5 color decks that require producing WUBRG. When I build those decks, they tend to overproduce green (because mana dorks are super easy cheap ramp), so having Signets and signet filter lands actually comes in pretty handy. Decks should definitely be built with manabase in mind though, so gotta avoid double blue counterspells and such.
I definitely disagree about bounce lands. The fact that you essentially get an additional land card to play on your next turn is quite powerful. I don't find it too compelling to worry about wasteland/stripmine, as not only is it generally frowned upon to use land removal on non-threatening lands, going down a land to make an opponent go down two lands is less impactful when you have two more opponents who are now essentially a turn ahead of you.
I 100% agree with this. In my play group, almost nobody runs land destruction. And even if they did, they would never waste it on blowing up my bounce land. Doesn’t seem that impactful truly. You’re much better using the land destruction on a utility land such as Academy Ruins, War Room, etc.
I like the storage lands. Leave mana up for a response, if you don't need it, add a counter. Then on like turn 9 when everyone's stopped paying attention and big dick plays are starting OOPS 6 extra mana.
I agree completely
Finally, someone who agrees about Pathways! I see them as a auto include in two colors, but past that they are not worth playing.
I love that Murmuring Bosk is just arbitrarily a Forest making it fetchable, and its also a pain land. The land is just a mess, and I love it for that reasons. I run it in Kathril just because it is fetchable, and makes all three of my colors. I have no way to make it come in untapped in that deck..........
YEah it is a triland for abzan and thats great
The reason bosk is a forest is because the treefolk harbinger tutors a treefolk or a forest to the top (likely at some point in their designs they were actual Tribal Land types, then they decided against it)
@@Blackvolttage Very interesting theory. I like it!
What if it's the opposite, and the Harbinger can tutor a Forest because Bosk is a forest?
@@The_MechaGojira yes, bosk seems to be given the forest type to let harbinger search for it (and the harbinger search for a forest to let it bring his tribal land).
That said, they didnt make the same thing for the other ones, thats why i think they were intended to be tribal lands before they scrapped the cobcept (but liked the harbringer/bosk interaction and shought a way to preserve it)
I think you are definitely wrong about pathways they are great, yea they aren't fetchable but most people don't play fetches and fetches are over rated in edh, basic land ramp can't grab them but if you aren't playing green that doesn't matter and they are strictly better than a basic to top deck.
I largely agree with your list. The only ones I'd rank higher are the storage lands, since they enter untapped and can potentially ramp you. I like them in proliferate decks.
Great video! Thank you. I have played MTG off and on for twenty+ years and this video was super helpful as a list for what is available. I have missed half of these when they came out and it's nice to know of their existence. It's crazy to see some of the really good ones ive had in the past, that ive gotten rid of. Commander really changed up MTG in mostly great ways.
That Paul Heyman reference? /Chef kiss
I would have thought the signet lands would have been high C tier or low B tier
I have to agree - even though they don’t produce mana for free, you get back more than what you put in. They’re better than the Temples, certainly.
I love my bounce lands. Its weird cause I have put plenty of money in my decks but I just refuse to pay like $40 dollars plus for a land card. All my shocks and fetches are proxies on top of my D tier lands. If someone doesn't like that I just pull the proxy out and play my awesome cards with slower lands
The reason they're so expensive is because manabases win games
Under my turn 1 Blood Moon, that i of course mulligan for every game, these are just ranked Mountains.
I know they speak from a position of higher levels of play than I'm at, but I LOVE bounce lands. I'm new to the game still, but anything that lets me play a land and guarantee one for next turn without really losing anything has a home in my deck.
I really enjoy this list. The one I really disagree with and wanted to talk about are bounce lands. My experience with these is that they are amazing in small numbers (1-3 copies per deck). The reason is that they basically are a tapped dual land that draws you a card (returning a land to your hand but then tapping for two is basically drawing a land). You don’t want to play too many because they obvious do not synergize well with each other (you would never want to have to bounce another bounce land). But the card value you get is great and they help you not miss your land drops. And they also synergize well with MDFC lands, since when you bounce a MDFC it’s like drawing a spell. Overall I think most power level 7 or so decks that play MDFCs want at least one bounce land.
The Best of the tribal lands from that cycle was the treefolk one, Murmuring. It makes 3 colors and it is a Forest so it is fetchable. It taps for a green because it is a forest and it also a Pain land for BW. A Doran staple.
I would move Filter to A, all C to B and Signet, Reveal, Bounce and Creature to C. Other than that, completely agree
At first I didn't like the new snow duals because they come in tapped, but I've tested them a bit now and have found them really useful for my Turn 1 fetch target if I don't have a turn 1 play instead of grabbing my shock and putting it in tapped.
Exactly, that is why they are so awesome!
You forgot to mention that, with a sol ring or something else that produces colorless, signet lands basically turn colorless mama into colored mana.
Dual lands are S tier. The tier list shouldn't be based on price. The list should be based on how good it is. Then the people decide if its to much to spend.
Another downside to filter lands is, you cannot make a single mana to play one spell and leave the other mana up to cast another spell on a later turn. So on turn two if you want to play a 1 mana creature and hold mana up for a 1 mana instant response, you just cannot with them. Same is true for signet lands. They are still great lands though.
Nice list, only one i would personally shift up a tier is the pathways. I play these even in 3 color spread so long as im running all 3 of the potential combinations of pathway, and I tell you it works out for me more often than not. Never really had issue with dead draws or a damned if you do/dont situation with them. Yeah it sucks that once you play them the placement on the land is permanent (unless you have bounce) but all i care about early and mid game is fixing my mana and the pathways do that beautifully, don't come with a caveat and dont come into play tapped.
I am a huge fan of the Kamigawa duals. I use them as a 1 of. Mainly for the art lol.
The pathways being almost strictly better than a basic means I think they should rank higher. Any deck where you're considering a basic they go in, unless you need a critical mass of basics for a green ramp package. I think they're slam dunks in 2 color and still very good in 3.
I don’t play then in 3 color
@@NitpickingNerds are you playing no basics in most 3 colored decks? Then I definitely agree
I really like shock, check and scry lands! The new pathways and snow dual lands and awesome too.
Pathway is underestimated its a B absolutely no Downside to basics. Very good Lands maybe even an A. And no, old Taplands are not ugly. Especially the red Green one. But fighting about poop or nearly poop is riddiculous, so whatever. Reveal and scry should switch places too. Its only scry1, and reveal in a 2 colour Dech has nearly no Downside in the Beginning.
Even if their availability is what makes them an A, mechanically speaking ranking a Shockland strictly better than a OG dual is curious.
This tier list should not have taken the secondary market into consideration ... like Wizards doesn't 🙃
Just out of curiosity. Did Thriving Lands didn't make the cut because people only consider them for 3 or more colors? (in 2 colors they are the same as tap lands, poop in my opinion)
But they are dual lands right?
Uhhh they're KIND of dual lands, but they feel more like Vivid lands where they're always one color but can fix for 5c. Although to be clear we kinda hate the vivids and think thriving lands are decent fixing for budget 4-5C
Loved this video. Been a lot harder recently with more and more "dual lands" getting printed to know how each compared to one another. Listening to this during work, would be nice to have some music in the background on low. Anyway, keep up the good work! :)
Appreciate this video. The only one I completely disagree with is the signet lands - which I've found to be great for mana conversion of colorless mana sources (artifacts and utility lands). They allow plays like turn 1 utility land (colorless land), turn 2 both colors available.
In a three color deck if you have Kodama. Get 2 bounce lands and it's a inf landfall trigger. Makes me push them up to C tier
Auto-includes are S tier. There's no way Fetches are above ABUR Duals. Very silly.
Well I think fetches are above ABUR duals 109%
I think the main argument is, yes OG dual lands are better, but are they one to five hundred times better. No way. Price should definitely be factored into a teir list when it comes to things like this.
🤦🏼♂️ Fetches are not Duals. They do not produce mana. They are Fetches. They can GET duals, but they are not, by themselves Dual lands.
I largely agree with this list, except for the signet lands. I don't think it matters much that they don't do anything t1, since you should have another land in hand that can be played t1 (if you don't, why did you keep that hand!?). I would have put them in C personally. Having said all that, there are so many dual land cards I can also see why they would be lower on the priority list.
How on earth can you justify putting the Reveal lands in D tier and then the Tribal lands in B??? They both involve revealing a card to come in untapped except the Reveal lands have a much larger subset of decks they can go in. In a tribal deck, you have, optimistically, a 30% of being able to reveal a card for the Tribal land. Whereas in ANY two color deck the Reveal lands can go in, you have a 15-20% chance, between the amount of basics and lands that have two types. Even though it's a lower chance to be able to come in untapped, it's easier to tutor a basic to hand then a creature, and the sheer availability of decks it can go in mean they deserve a much higher tier.
Filter lands should be above checklands. In turn one a checkland doesn't give mana and if you have other duo lands without types they will come tapped. While filter lands in turn one at least give colorless and function with other lands despite the types and even mana rocks, furthermore they give the upside of transforming one mana source if needed to give double of the same color.
I think Pathways will turn out to be letter than people think. Sure there are some drawbacks, but overall you know which color you need in most situations. Maybe weakest at the beginning of a game.
Oh yeah and I don't care if they are all a $1000; Old school Duals will always be S tier. :)
It isn't price it is availability, if everyone in the world that has a dimir deck wants an Underground Sea not all of them can have one.
Great video, and very helpful! I'm fairly new to EDH, and honing in my mana bases has been an interesting if at times a little frustrating challenge. A lot of good notes here to consider -- thanks!
the snow tap duals are actually c tier imo because they have land types and are fetchable. played them in a tasigur list to fix my colours when using farseek natures lore or three visits.
IMO Filter lands should move up to A; Tango lands, Pathways, and Fast lands should move up to B; and Bounce lands should move up to C. I understand them lowering the OG duals to A because of their scarcity and insanely high price, but if we base them solely on their power level in game they are obviously S tier.
Scry lands are my preferred land draw after turn 5/6. I think they are basically like “paying” 1 for a scry 1.
If I already have to run ETB tappedlands, I for SURE would run those that can be fetched by lands and spells AND cycle. Temples suck
Nice tier list! I agree with everything except:
The odyssey signet lands are way better than D, more likely B. Always untapped, produces 2 different colors. Sure sometimes you'd rather use 2 lands to get double of one color, but having one land that turns generic into 2 colors means that it can turn colorless producing lands like wasteland into color producing. Sometimes you'd wish they were producing mana on turn one, but that goes for the other filter lands as well as far as color is concerned. I suppose turn 1 sol ring, mana vault, skull clamp etc are exceptions. Also, just as with the other filter lands they do combo with Mana Reflection. So compared to the other filter lands that you put in B, I'd say the signet lands should be just below them or at least high C.
Bounce lands are underrated. They are two taplands in one card, they are amazing card advantage engines. They are great with land tax, and sometimes you are paying colors with limited draw options and they are great for keeping cards in hand. (Or dumping cards into your yard to reanimate)
And they let you bog twice!
Bounce lands are only good if you are playing a lands matters deck other than that they are poop.
you said fetchlands will get a reprint in what set? are you referring to how they where "kinda" in zendikar?
They're here now in Modern Horizons 2
Eh. Regardless of price, it’s a dual lands tier list. Obviously S tier.
Yeha it's like saying poop material should be in A because they are $0.01
And then fetchlands are also on the expensive side for most and they didn't demote it at all. The logic would put most things more in the middle as bad is cheap and good usually is expensive.
Yeah, the OG dual lands are the dual lands by which every other land is compared. They are literally all upside as far as lands go with the only downside being that they are nonbasic, which they kinda have to be by rule. They have to be S tier by nature!
Maybe we could have said this better at the time, but we've said it before in previous videos so we must have assumed people already knew our take on it. Dual Lands got A tier because they are completely unavailable. The price barely factors into this at all. There are a limited number of Dual Lands that exist and not being able to get one for that reason is really ridiculous in our opinion
@@NitpickingNerds I get your perspective! Love the content. But I just went to eBay and the big card stores which had availability on nearly all the duals. If a player wants one, they can order one. I might get that argument for those specialty cards that WOTC prints for their employees, but the original duals CAN be bought at anytime.
Would Atraxa boost the storage lands enough?
I think it would bring it up to C tier!
Oh, and there are *almost* enough tutor hating cards to reliably hose fetches these days, between stranglehold, aven mindcensor, opposition agent, and blood moon...
And it's really rad to grab stranglehold or opp agent with a wishclaw...
Crowd lands made the fabled 5 colour aggro deck much less painful,.
Yes they did! 10 easy dual lands
The best MTG content in the biz right here
Aw ya think so? We are honored
I second that motion.
Thanks for this, I started magic again after 10+ years and there are so many new cycles of lands and things for mana bases (what dk you mean no one plays darksteel ingot anymore?). I feel like since most of your lists don't take into account budget you should just slot the ABUR at the top of A tier since that is really where they are if you're not considering price. That or make their own section or just leave them off.
Excellent video. The fact is: some of the “dual lands” are better than others. The originals from ABUR are amazing, no doubt, but I understand not putting them in S tier. It’s a bold statement, but it’s true that they simply aren’t accessible to most EDH players. And yes.... I absolutely appreciate that comment about the reserve list. It’s spot on - and I’m saying this as a 27-year MTG player with plenty of RL cards.
With the addition of Gond Gate I'd say gates should be fairly higher at least in B tier.
Who else noticed they showed the rakdos bounce land when talking about guildgates
Great video, these are a little tricky to search out for folks who haven't been playing legacy and modern! I will say, though, when you say "guildgates" you show Rakdos Carnarium which should be a bounceland, right?
at 18:08
The bounce lands are better than you might expect bouncing lands with etb triggers can be super useful
OK, so let me explain why your concept for Bounce and storage is wrong. Unless you were doing CEDH. In not hyper-competitive, the bounce allows you to open with fewer lands without worrying about a land drop. The Storage is best with Blue or anything that you want instant interaction. Since it allows you to bluff counterspells or anything else on color support as it interaction. So in that case you should easy be able to store 3-5 mana on one.
So to explain it better you use storage for bluff not color fixing. You use bounce to help with land drops
Cheap signet lands- Kadena precon. Turn 1 forest sol ring. Turn 2 played the Dimir Signet land, played Kadena, played a morph, draw a card. Only time I ever appreciated the signet land.
Its hard to take a list seriously when the only thing to change tiers is artwork. I know its all opinionated but I find a lot of these misplaced.
I like the pain lands a lot. I really want them to get a full reprint into standard to make them more accessable.
They were printed to death for like 5 core editions in a row, 6th to 10th, in addition to starter packs for for example Mercadian Masques, Nemesis, Invasion etc. how are they not accessible?!?
The reason why the original duel lands are "limited" is simply because the print runs were limited to start with. Magic did pickup in popularity overnight like any other TCG. So print runs were way limited. The reason they were not reprinted originally wasn't over the Reserve List issue. At the time it didn't exist. Early on they began to realize that some cards are "degenerate". Meaning they gave a huge advantage to the player using them. Black Lotus literally gave you a three turn mana advantage that could lock the other player down in the early start of a game. The duel lands were to strong. They made duel colors and counted as both land types with no drawback. Until deck limitations restricted us to four copies of any card outside basic lands there was no reason to even use basic lands when you just could have a mana base with nothing but duel lands.
Today we now have so many choices in duel lands that it's really just a novelty to use the originals. Fetch lands and Shocks are amazing substitutes and really just balance the field more unlike it used to be.
The Storage lands are niche But i ran em in my Atraxa deck because she would proliferate the counters and make a butt ton of mana from removing the 10 counters id proliferate onto them
I asked you guys about this like 5 months ago! Glad you guys came around to it.
We got there eventually!
Where do the slow lands rank?
Genuine question about why the reveal lands are so low? I get they drop off as soon as you go to more than 2 colours but if you're playing a 2 colour deck surely they're better than the pathways?
There's no reason to argue about art on a year old video, but the old tap lands look better than the new ones. That's just because I started playing with revised cards and it's a nostalgia thing. I always use depletion and old taps over new ones.
I think bounce lands should've been rated a little higher. They are very good for getting landfall triggers. So, say you have an Oracle of Mul Daya or something similar out, you can play a bounce and bounce itself multiple times per turn.
They are pretty terrible
Trying to make my unfinished Golos(lands/landfall focused) deck a home for gates/mazes end, but what other lands are okay to add as well? I do have a number of creatures that add extra lands a turn or can play them off the top. Can I add the new dual snow lands as well? *I plan to have 40-45 lands in this deck*,
p.s. I dont own fetches :)
Put Archelos in the deck, it will turn all your gates into og duals
@@caseywellington4761 gotta love the turtle 😁
I think availability shouldn't matter in a tier list, they're unavailable but when people think tier it's usually that they expect you to rank the strongest.
The only one you guys are largely undervaluing is signet lands. Auto-include in 2 color decks, okay in 3 color. Final grade: B
Logic:
1. You guys say they don't do anything on turn 1. What one land hands are you keeping? This is never the outcome.
2. These never come into play tapped instantly puts them in C tier or above- floor with the lack of tempo loss.
3. They filter your colorless mana freely. Do you play sol rings, mana crypts, cavern of souls, mind stones, strip mines, wastelands, filter lands, ancient tombs, mana vaults, Grim monoliths, command beacons, metalworkers, painlands? Of course you do! Filter the colorless into colored mana!
I dont think there is the need to run lands with such downsides anymore. We got an abundance of very good lands already
pathways should be the same tier as fetches after all unless you're playing a deck where you can get fetches back or you want more landfall triggers than pathways are effectively the same if not better. besides they're also just a far cheaper solution to the same problem.
Edit: they're also just generally better than basics so I wouldn't only use them in two color decks
Edit 2: now that I think about it fetch lands are better because you can fetch some dual lands rather than just basics but, pathways should at least be higher up on the list.
Creeping tar pit is probably the only creature land I run
Your list was perfect but i missed the grave titan
It is in poop tier