Tom Nichols on Trump's Inevitability
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- Tom Nichols, staff writer for The Atlantic, returns to the show for Part 2 of last week's discussion. This time around, Tom answers numerous questions, including whether Donald Trump was the inevitable conclusion for the Republican Party. Enjoy!
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The reason that JG was annoyed about that conversation is because Tom is smarter, less arrogant, more humble and openly honest about the trump danger than he is. And he knows it.
What a great conversation. I am a lifelong Democrat, I guess you'd place me pretty solidly in the "liberal" zone, and I'm roughly the same age as Tom Nichols. That said, when Reagan proposed reintroducing the draft in the early 80s, I differed from much of my cohort in being prepared to register. I found their knee-jerk absolute rejection of the very idea of a draft to be rash and ludicrous. How could one possibly know what might be the circumstances under which a draft might be reintroduced? I had a good talk with my (liberal Democrat) dad, who told me that I must follow my conscience. All this to say, I always seek out and appreciate good exchanges with thoughtful conservatives.
On this note about all Republicans are Nazis...I read a book once called Voices from the Third Reich. They interviewed every day Germans who lived through the war. Postmen, City clerks, etc. as the one guy said, in the beginning, we were not all Nazis, but, in the end, we were all Nazis. In other words, they may not have agreed with or joined the Nazi party, but they didn't stop it or object. At the end of the war, there was no distinction remaining. And that is what is wrong with the Republican party now. The party is MAGA and Trump. If you are in it now, you are MAGA. If you are confused about it, you were probably MAGA all along, you just had enough conscience left to know you chose wrong.
you not only have to leave the GOP and stand up to it. You have to say you now realize what you were a part of and renounce it
There is so much denial that can take place when you make politics your identity or religion.
What about Lindsey Graham, who predicted what a disaster it would be for the R party if Trump were the nominee?
Tom is 💯 correct about the marketing of pharmaceuticals. The US is one of the few countries that allow direct to consumer ads.
The side affects always make me laugh (suicidal thoughts, infection of the perineum, etc..)
The fact that Mitt Romney was the last nominee before Trump is irrelevant.
That was true . . . then the levees broke. 2012 was the last time the party establishment was able to stop the voters from choosing what they really wanted. This started under Gingrich and escalated noticeably under Bush in 2004. Every election after 1992 was about the establishment holding back the fringe as it acquired more power each cycle. It WAS inevitable. Mitt Romney 2012 was the last gasp of a dying institution.
The reason is that the establishment has no reason to exist. The Republican party from Eisenhower until Bush was all about fighting the Cold War. Conservatism became all about that. But after 1989 the Republican Party's whole deal became irrelevant. GWOT gave it some legs but with that protracted failure we ended up with Trump. The fact that the establishment made it this long is the impressive thing, given it's essentially a fossil of 30+ years ago. There's no reason to assume the Republican Party will be around forever, it's been carried by momentum. What replaces it will be the interesting thing to look for.
Remember, the crazy GOP base LOVED Bush Jr. for being SO Christiany. He was soft-peddling Christian Nationalism before Trump. In a way, Bush Jr. was the perfect fusion between the establishment and the party’s voters.
Geo Will and Federalist Society….that organization has been the grease on the slippery slope
I am an Australian progressive. I am trying to make sense of the US because it is so important to the world and my country. I find the perspective of conservatives like Tom Nichols extremely helpful in understanding the US. The erudition and fundamental decency of Nichols help restore some of my faith in humanity. The section starting at about the 23-minute mark discussing Adams, Maddison and Hamilton is particularly enlightening. Having said that, I find Rachel Maddow's current analysis particularly interesting and her podcast on earlier eras when the US saw off the sorts of domestic threats in the past, that are manifest current era.
So much respect for Mr. Nichols after his self reflection ❤
This has to be one of the best Tom Nichols interview! Great questions.🏆
Thanks!!
This was a really good conversation. I had never thought about it but we should revere John Adams more. Giving up power after the voters rejected you, was at the time and still is today a radical notion but also a great act of patriotism. His example is as important as Washington’s. Definitely deserves a monument but it should include Abigail as well.
Hi from Australia👋.Yes, a gr8 conversation..👏👌👍.
Thank you, mate!!
13:59 Tom your critics are DEAD RIGHT when they say there’s a direct line from Goldwater-Nixon-Reagan-Gingrich-Bush Jr.- Trump. That line is anti-intellectualism (feminism, secularism, environmentalism, social justice) in favor of a tacit christian nationalism
out of those you listed, only Trump plays the part of Christian nationalist on tv, no way he's a real one.
@@BigTimeRushFan2112
i dunno. i was there for Bush Jr. and he seemed pretty Christian Nationalist to me: seeking to amend the Constitution to ban abortion and gay marriage; sending public funds to christian organizations; declaring war on muslim majority countries (even ones that didn’t attack us). As Tx gov he came up w Jesus Day. Hell, i remember him w Laura sitting in the Whitehouse preaching abstinence!
Yeah. I realized that if I believed policies like mass deportations were wrong, clearly I had to defend immigrants and immigration. Giving one step towards mass deportations is a step towards the American version of the Holocaust. If people think that is overstating the probable outcome, I want them to think about what rounding up and transporting millions of people will look like. How will they be housed? How will they be fed? What about epidemics of disease from poor housing and sanitation? We did this once before and we were barely able to manage not to mention morally reprehensible.
What do I think we need to do about immigration? Fix it. We need workers and we need them to be here legally. But hell if I will sign on to mass deportations.
I believed that in 2000, I believe that today. I didn't change, the party went off the rails.
How do conservatives stand for the Constitution? I'm confused
I get that it wasn't the main topic in this discussion, but if you're going to say Democrats have "crazy" views on taxation, it would be nice to hear which ones these are. More IRS agents to crack down on tax cheats? A global minimum corporate tax rate?
LEADERS do make a difference
Let’s not forget Theo. Roosevelt, another Republican president who left the scene after two terms in office. And I mean literally - he went on safari for a year in Africa; his hunt was meant to promote the natural world and science, while leaving his successor William Howard Taft the freedom to pursue his own ideas and agenda. (Let’s also not forget the progressive agenda of the Republican Party; leaders like Lincoln and TR promoting principles that today would be ridiculed as “far left extremism”).
T.R. came back and ran against Taft in 1912 to return to the Whitehouse for a 3rd term, so not the best example
Bless your heart, Tom! Thank you for your change of heart!💜
16:36 The last GOP president before Trump was Bush Jr., so the fascism through-line argument has some teeth.
23:58 We have Checks and Balances BECAUSE we are a less than virtuous people
I loved the discussion that arose from those questions. Great video.
I am so totally where Tom Nichols is and was, it sounds like I'm listening to an echo. Also I can absolutely see myself playing Dungeons & Dragons and war games with him back in college in the 1980s lol.
Man, Matt! I've disliked you since I first saw your mug on TV. This, though, is a brilliant, thoughtful interview. Guess I've got some rethinking to do, too.
If you're implying once again the same hood of Ronald Reagan-and I was there, then maybe you should take a refresher. If you don't like newt Gingrich remember that he was Ronnie's number one cheerleader.
Trump is the "logical" conclusion of the Republican Southern Strategy -- the Confederacy II -- but nationalized, because there are Archie Bubnkers everywhere.
13:28 Trump himself might not be the inevitable conclusion, but given that cultural issues are what motivate GOP voters and that they otherwise didn’t care about foreign policy, and since GOP economic policies actually hurt them, then yea getting a candidate who goes all in on culture and throws out the latter 2 was probably inevitable. Actually surprising it took half a century
Had enough of Geo. Will back in 1979, when he affected political neutrality while serving as an inside adviser to Republican challenger Ronald Reagan.
It was later learned that George had helped Ronald in the mock debate and then declared him (Reagan) the winner without ever disclosing his personal role in the debate with incumbent Jimmy Carter.
It was also revealed that the Reagan campaign, incidentally, had in its possession at the time some documents stolen from the Carter campaign. It is uncertain whether Will had done the purloining, or had provided the campaign those documents.
This was a great interview, both questions and answers. Learned some new things about Tom.
The entire conversation was great, but the John Adams stuff was incredibly interesting. Thanks!
Heartbreaking what has happened to our country.
It's going down hill under dems
There were a million and one things that had to fall into place for him to win in 2016--and unfortunately, they fell into place.
I'd say fourtantly. Hillary would have had us in a war with Iran
Great show! Love Tom.
As a Democrat turned Independent, I fully agree that the Clinton Fatigue in America made Hillary's nomination an unforced error, but of course, Bernie would haved been a huge target.
I was saying back in 2015 they should nominate Biden.
Reminder to Tom: Hillary received more votes than Trump. It wasn’t a mistake to nominate her.
Dem here. You guys have helped me not to hate all Republicans right now. I appreciate podcasts like this so much such as the Bulwark, the Lincoln Project, etc. 🇺🇲
U mean u like the Lincoln project perverts who are just grifters.
SOMA FM! This is Left Coast 70s on Soma FM
Me too brother !
All us Dems feel driven crazy by our own party members and discussions now and then. Except that "our party" is not a monolithic, unified entity. "Big Tent" party may be corny, but that's what we Dems are. Complicated.
Why is it that it’s the, what I like to call the ‘Republican Classics’ (not Maga. Just common sense Republicans) are the only faction in our politics that are sounding the alarm and in a very sound and intelligent way?
The Democrats continue to insist to ‘double-side’ everything for fear of being dubbed ‘playing politics’?
It’s not a secret that Democrats have historically been horrible at messaging. However….how bad do things have to get before they learn from their mistakes and realize just how bad they are at campaigning and politicking? Is losing our democracy not enough terror for them to get their shit together?
I left the party 24 years ago for this very reason and 24 years later….not one thing has changed!! 🙄
I couldn't agree more about pharmaceutical adds. I find it ridiculous that people would take medical advice from TV but they also have to be paid for. They are another reason drug prices are so high.
15:06 HRC had every right to run in 2016. She won a plurality of the vote by millions
Of course she had a right the question is was she the best nominee. I understand why the party chose her she was very popular as Secretary of State and had almost beat Obama a generational talent in 08. Looking back Biden would have been the better nominee in 2016.
@@darrellhenry9152 yea, the problem was Biden couldn’t win the nomination. He and Hillary would’ve split the moderate vote, and Bernie woulda won the nomination (and maybe the electoral college). Bernie was on the verge of winning in 2020 when the “establishment” demanded all others drop out and support Biden despite his BADLY losing the 1st 3 contests
16:38 The fascists went thru an “anybody BUT Romney” phase, but settled on him b/c the party establishment told them he was THE candidate who could beat Obama.
The fascists were patient, that is it. Who says every Republican is a fascist?
"We always had this innate suspension of people on the Left......." Yeah, how's that working out for y'all?
Didn't Madison say something along the line of "If men were angels, there would be no need for government"?
Maybe Abscam is an example. When I first learned that the FBI ran a sting operation in retaliation for a Congressional investigation, I was outraged. On reflection, maybe this was the system of competing interests at work.
Wilber Mills! 😂
Yacht Rock, Tom!! Give it a try!👍🏼
While I agree about the pharmacy ads, I also advocate advocating for yourself with your doctor. Took me three rounds to get the righ antibiotic for an infection while he was trying to screen me for cancer. Which, I'm all about screening for cancer, but it would have surely sucked to die from sepsis while I was doing that.
I saw that Schizophrenia ad Tom was talking about. It was unreal.
Is it impossible to create a national conservative party?
I'll enjoy your post election tears this year
Ya
Good for you; you have a crystal ball that works, lol
16:40 sorry, but the Bush/Cheney Whitehouse DID have some fascist tendencies. Not sure WHY it’s so hard for Never Trump Republicans to see that
Iraq and torture are down the memory hole
@@carneades4409 THIS GUY remembers
Disagree with substantial bits of the thought, but both of you have gotten better/more consistent. Love the Joan Didion poster.
Tom - I'll listen to music with you any day.
I would say he is the logical end point of the Southern Strategy.
As someone who is an unaffiliated who leans towards the liberal/progressive factions.
I would also agree that the constitution isn't set in stone. We shouldn't have 27 amendments still by year 2100.
I can think of 2 of them. One is the ERA, which still needs to be done. Especially, with the current climate we are in. The second one is some form of Campaign Fiance. Just wouldn't know how it would worded. Since we had Taft-Hartley in 1907. Since the SCOTUS went after that post 1976. With Buckley v. Valeo. Then Bellotti in 1978. That ended up with Citizens United in 2010.
Tom Nichols!!! I have always agreed with you!! I think in the UK they don't do pharma ads!! What happened to your cat Carla??
#TeamCarla
This is Kang. Cease hostilities. 🙂
....Disarm. What a great episode, I've thought of it often in the last years.
13:05 calling Donald Trump’s election a traumatic event is incredibly short-sighted, but i’m glad it caused Tom to ask “what else was i wrong about?”
I've been asking myself that same question since Trump, actually probably since PAlin and the Tea Party.
@@curtisevans4100 glad to hear it! sorry it took so long. The Bush 04 campaign was pretty vile. That’s what did it for me 🤷🏼♂️
Nixon; Reagan; Gingrich; Bush Jr.; Trump. Sorry, but i see a through-line.
Cheney voted for Trump Twice and keep getting credit after 180 days after Jan6
I Love Steely Dan. And Mozart.
Never trust a man in a toupee.
17:31 Who’s worse? Tucker or Hannity? sadly i’d say Tucker’s a modest improvement
Tea party 🤬
i’m glad he said this started w Gingrich, not the Tea Party. That means it was happening under Bush Jr.
The difference over the past 20 years for a Trump presidency wasn't Hillary, it was Obama.
what about Obama’s presidency?
2:42 Liz Cheney voted for Trump twice
And now she’s doing everything in her power to keep him from office. I don’t care when a person converts so long as they do.
She voted for her party. She won't make the same mistake in 2024. January 6 broke her.
@@terryarmstrong8598 if Liz Cheney is citing the Capitol Riot of Jan 2021, she should be asked to compare it to the Brooks Brothers Riot of Nov 2000 which was functionally the same thing: protesters broke into a gov building to stop the counting of votes and it became violent. The difference is it worked. The counting stopped and never restarted. The rioters were members of the Bush/Cheney committee and was organized by Brad Blakeman. Was he charged w insurrection? Nope. He went on to work in the Bush/Cheney Whitehouse.
15:06 What if Bernie has won the nomination? Or even the presidency?
10:29: Organic, probably. Subtly? Not likely. Not sure the New Deal Coalition emerged w any ambiguity. Don’t think falling into disalignment in the 60s & 70s was subtle
Was Trump inevitable? It depends on what you mean. It probably was preventable, like lots of other bad outcomes. But their preventability is moot if people don't take sufficient action, because bad outcomes don't prevent themselves. And it's pretty obvious now that the Republican Party was never going to take sufficient action. If they were, they would have done it. So for all practical purposes, yes, Trump and Trumpism were inevitable, the GOP collectively wasn't willing to do what was necessary to prevent them.
11:19 perhaps worthy of note that JG was even more childlike in penning a whole shitty book "arguing" that fascism is a left phenomenon
IMO Tom is underestimating the bad features of Goldwater/Nixon/Reagan but he is exactly right about nominating Clinton in 2016
20:20 Conservatives identities can’t let them switch to stand up to Trump cuz they’d be aligned w dems. instead they soft-peddle excuses for Trump
4:29 We changed. And the things we were blind to, like how Guilliani did business, were revealed as the hideous things they are
Adams a VERY UNDERRATED President. His son getting elected vindicated him. There should be a monument to him in DC. Change the Jefferson Monument to one that’s shared w him and Adams.
19:19 Ronna’s actions ARE defensible, but she did a terrible job doing it in that interview
11:31 Gingrich… The Tea Party… was there a GOP President anywhere in between there? Why does he seem to get a pass?
Team blue propagandists violated the cardinal rule of drug dealers - never get high on your own supply.
Tom Nichols: engaging interview but horrible taste in music.
😂
And food.
recommend Ron Brownstein to those that wanna understand how the parties are changing. VERY ILLUMINATING
Tom Nichols listens to Brian Eno. Chapeau sir.
You want to know some pathetic s*** Tucker Carlson grew up in Newport Beach walking distance from the beach and never learned how to surf to those who don't know that is the equivalency to Growing Up on a ranch and not knowing how to ride LOL
Lewis, an anti anti.
These two consider themselves true conservatives and historians of conservatism but can’t abide supporters of a guy who has advanced conservative policies more than any current politician. The antipathy for those who see value in Trump as a deeply flawed but effective vehicle for conservative policy betrays inconstant commitment to conservatism. I know those who don’t like Trump and haven’t voted for him but plan to in ’24 because they can’t abide further advancement of left wing policies. They love the move of SCOTUS rightward and despise the foreign policy, cultural and economic policies of the left. Trump represents the best hope of thwarting their current political enemies and advancing the policies they like. If Never Trump adversaries contend a Trump voter must own all the contemptible elements that Trump brings along with him, they should just respond by insisting Never Trump adversaries own the worst excesses of the left. I have more respect for those who’ve chosen a side and will no longer pretend to have preserved their principles by casting a protest vote cynically against the whole rotten system.
Im am far from being a republican. However, not too long ago i had a ton of respect real, honest conservative republicans. My dad was one, and we have had some great heated debates over the years. But the pendulum does swing. When one side starts inching further to its extreme, as the right has done thanks to things likeFox tv…… the other side will mirror it and inch further to ITS extreme. It has to- to counteract the far swing from the other side… An example is how much my relationship with my dad has changed in the 15-20 years that he has been watching Fox.
What happened was Fox propaganda network. And BOTH SIDES were asleep when it started and did nothing to counteract or tamper down the Russian grade propaganda that Murdock was unleashing on the American public. It happened to my dad- fox hijacked his brain and i barely recognize him today. Since Rowe was overturned, i stopped talking to him. I am far from a leftist liberal. Im NO “fema N@ Zii” , never have been. Iwas pretty centrist and have even voted for a few republic local officials in the past. I am one of those that did NOT vote in 2016, I did not like Hillary for the job, and trump was a joke. But today im obviously very different. I get it if republicans think im a self righteous, angry liberal. I kind have become one, in the face of the maga jerks i encounter online and my deep hatred for the maga GOP house that stands with this fascism. Yeah, i think most of us have been shoved in to the far left- the direction that we feel is needed to counter maga far right extremism
I listen primarily to never trumper podcasts today. I already KNOW what a scary weirdo Trump is, always have. I dont need the hype from cnn or other silly exploitative media out there. I miss debates- i used to learn things from my discussions with republicans. If i searched for common ground and found it, it was a win. If not, i felt it helpedstregnthen my ideas which is important to me. I dontwant to be a “know it all”. I want to be informed. When i listen to shows like this, it reminds methat the ENITIRE world isnt crazy, and gives me hope that men like these two willrestore theirparty and get back in the game. We need both parties for our democracy to exist.
Please keep up the good fight.
Thank you!
😂 i love TRUMP❤
you could get the same treatment under Putin , xi or kim