Fluency takes how long?? Language teacher explains.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- How long does it really take to become fluent? How much time do you need to work towards? How much time have you already spent in your native language? Let's dive in.
#languageeducation #languagelearning #worldlanguages #languageteacher
I think 10k hours of focused practice will get you decent in any area, including languages.
Great point. 10k is a LOT of time. Like I said in the video, I believe it's the people who stick to their practices that make it in the long run, whether that's learning a language or something else. You're totally right.
Great video! The long game really is where it's at. After many years, I'm still not fluent in mandarin Chinese, but the journey goes on. For me, part of staying motivated is celebrating the small victories. Like "oh I ordered food very well that time" Even if it's simple thing, we can keep getting better at it. Just like music, we can finely polish the easiest, simplest pieces and they will shine brightly. Can't wait for the next video!
It is very much about appreciating the small victories and the journey along the way.
I appreciate the realism here. So many channels push BS like “learn a language in 24 hours”. I’m at 400 hours in Spanish and still just a beginner. We need to lower our expectations and be more realistic with our language learning goals.
Absolutely! I think clickbait stuff like that is honestly very discouraging for most learners because they think they aren't good enough, when claims like that are TOTAL nonsense. There are far too many creators on social media that pander that kind of crap, and it's very frustrating as a language teacher because I know how damaging it can be to realistic expectations and cutting down others' confidence. Everyone can do it! It just takes real work like any other skill!
I'm at 1800 hours and some change and I still got alot of work to do. 😢 But I'm not stopping anytime soon. My gosl is 10k hours. Hopefully I get there in 5yrs or so.
@@diangeloaprenderespanol9405 Keep it up!
@@diangeloaprenderespanol9405 Great job! 1800 hours is already an impressive time investment and tells a lot about your dedication and patience! I use the same 10k hours figure as a mental checkpoint where I imagine myself feeling comfortable with my English. By the way, 1800 hours of work or 1800 hours of pleasure? :)
Thanks for your sincerity and for spreading a healthy, sustainable attitude. Language acquisition is an exceptionally long journey, so it's good to pour some patience into our minds and to make expectations more realistic. That's how I understand your message. And that is what I consider lacking in a wild YT world of 'learning language fast.' A language is the last thing to expect to learn fast. I know it also from my own experience with English. I like to track my journey by writing down the time spent with the language. Over the last 4 years, I have gotten around 2,000 hrs of input, starting from a pre-intermediate level from a previous, ineffective education at school (+ some flashcards in ancient times when I considered them effective;). And I know it's just an early stage of my journey. What keeps me going? Habits and enjoyment. I love exploring the world and diving into the knowledge. English is just one of the codes opening a world of enthrallment for me. I could do it for 200,000 hrs - I don't mind!
Incredibly well said! I love that you have a level head about it and that you've learned to enjoy the process of long-term learning. You're so right, there are numerous youtubers trying to pitch the idea of "learn FAST" or "hack" learning, and none of those are substitutes for REAL learning.
Keep up your language studies!
incredible video. thanks for putting everything in perspective. hope you grow.
You bet! Appreciate the encouragement 😎
Why your channel is so underrated 😮
I thought you have +50k
I'm just getting started! Thank you so much for your kind words! Hopefully I'll get to 50k someday 😉
high quality video. keep up the good work
Thanks! I will keep at it!
Wow, I've never heard someone put it in perspective like that before and thank you for the insight. Some will make fun of people for having low proficiency in a language, but someone even getting to the 30,000 hours of a 5 year old may never happen unless they're literally 100% isolated in just that one language all day for years. So at least they're trying. I've been learning Spanish for 3 1/2 years now and Haitian for 6 months. I get frustrated sometimes, but this made me realize that it's not my fault I don't have as many hours put in as a native. I live in Tijuana now and living in Latin America has helped me get a lot more valuable hours of hands on practice, and there are a lot of Haitians here so I'll start practicing with them soon too. This really helped me look at the bigger picture instead of being frustrated at the small details, thank you so much and it will really help me stay focused, hopeful, and motivated while I continue my efforts toward fluency 🙏🏾🕯
I am so happy to hear that! Keep up your hard work! And what awesome opportunities to be able to live in one of your target languages. That makes it so much more exciting and promises a ton of growth in your future. 👍
There is such thing as 30k hours for a five years old. Nobody talks to them or in front of them for as much time during their five first years. This video is just for shock value but is massively wrong
@@user-or6mz4gy6i Think you're not including the language passively being around them for the rest of the time. Signs, conversations, radio, etc
@@user-or6mz4gy6i Nobody talks to or in front of their own CHILD???? Bud, if that's the case there's something very wrong with that child's upbringing. It's probably not 30k hours by 5 years of age, but it's a TON especially factoring in passive language immersion. This video is (1) not massively wrong and (2) not for shock value, but for perspective. Everything I included was based on facts and likely language environments.
@@linguacarpa wake hours are not 24/7 to begin with, and even if they can hear or see writing, since at the beginning they don't even know there is a meaning the brain won't even try to make sense of it. This is why reading is acquired later than spoken language. And I wrote nobody talks as much as 10 hours a day in front of children because nobody talks ten hours a day to begin with apart very few people (and this is proven by science. Some men tell less than two hundred words a day. That would be very stretched to say they can last 10 hours with this). So I stand by my point of view there is a massive overestimation of these hours, and of the value of this exposure.
I learned english as a second language in school, i can't pinpoint exaclty how old i was when i first read a text in english and understood completly, im used to watch videos in english, and search the web in english for over a decade now, and i dont consider myself fluent, because altough i have a good vocab and can read and understand very well, im not used to express myself in english, speaking or writing.
fluency for me is been able to understand fast, and express yourself fast (without searching in mind for words), in other words, someone can have a great vocabulary and not be fluent in english(me) and someone can be fluent in english and not have a great vocabulary (any native kid)
I totally understand what you mean. That speed in the freedom to communicate is definitely an important part of fluency in the big picture. But also, give yourself some credit! Your writing here is excellent. Maybe it doesn't come as easily or quickly as you like, but you're obviously doing a good job.
My motivation is definitely on these types of videos. Thanks for presenting this topic.
And thank you for the kind comment. I think motivation is at its strongest when we are able to set realistic goals, reach them, and have grace with ourselves when we may fall short at times. Keep up your learning!
just came across your channel today, after watching the video I was surprised to see that I'm only the 393rd subscriber. You definitely deserve more bro
Thank you for the encouragement. You'll always be my 393rd subscriber 😁
First I'd like to say that I did enjoy the video, especially at your size the production quality is very good and you make many valid points.
I do think you're missing a big part with specifically the figure of 100.000 hours. A child has to learn not just the particular language but also the concepts of the words themselves and the basis of all languages that you would have learned in your native language already. You do not have to learn by trial and error what "the past" is conceptually and basically the entire vocabulary of the other language will likely have an analogue you can tie it to. (learning something completely new is a lot more difficult than associating it to another concept) And that's even ignoring the fact that unless you're learning a language that has been completely isolated to your own there are likely to be words with similar roots and in some cases nearly identical vocabulary especially if the languages are linguistic neighbours.
So while I do think you make a valid point I do think your analogy of the amount of hours a 10/18 Y.O. has in the language is not a good comparison.
The purpose of the comparison is to help viewers build empathy for themselves in understanding that language learning is a long-term and likely lifelong process. In a sea of online content like "I LEARNED FRENCH IN A MONTH" and "WHITE GUY LEARNS HINDI IN 24 HOURS," this comparison is meant to provide viewers a much more realistic time scale of what it means to actually learn a language. I'm sure you noticed in the video too that I mentioned people do NOT need 100k hours, nor 58k hours, and probably not even close to that to be highly proficient in a new language.
I appreciate your criticism, but I am not overlooking all of those facts. Knowing and understanding what role building initial concepts plays, as well as general decoding in the new language, are very much part of my job as a language teacher. I did not feel the need to go that in depth here because those are primary characteristics of the native language, and this video is about time and grace, not building concepts and decoding.
People already deduced it. 1000 to 5000 hours of exposure. Depends on the individual for fluency.
keep going man! you deserve lots of subs!
You're too kind! Thank you!
Just found your channel today and loving the vids! Keep it up
Awesome to hear! Thank you, and I will indeed keep at it 😁
Great video!! I’ve been learning Korean for 2 years today - and my goal is to study 10k hours over the next 4 years 🤞🏼
Congrats on the two year mark. Keep it up! I hope you've found lots of fun ways to keep your own motivation going. I know if I were learning Korean I'd be watching tons of series and movies. So much good film content from Korea!
@@linguacarpa definitely. I watch a lot of reality shows and listen to a lot of podcasts
POV: you are watching this video, while learning English
That's awesome! Keep it up, and feel free to ask questions if you need help!
@@linguacarpa Thank you!
That's something that I have issues with keeping motivation even though I want to continue and I want to make progress. i watch these videos of people claiming to get N1 in like 2 years then listen to them talk and they speak better than me then I compare even more snd get depressed but I know I shouldn't be comparing myself in the first place and I should be proud of how far I've gotten in the first place. You're definitely right sbout the good days and bad days too. Sometimes I'll be like wow i understood everything today and I was speaking really well with my wife (who's Japanese) but every single day she says a new word I don't know. This mountain is neverending that's for sure... But I've picked up Korean too and started taking online lessons maybe I'll get the spark back. I got burnt out before doing too much with Japanese. Any suggestions for dealing with burnout? Or for keeping habits going?
Awesome questions. Honestly, #1 thing for burnout is setting some kind of schedule but keeping your load very light. That way, when it's time to sit down and study your language, you feel more fresh. I have seen A LOT (and I mean A LOOOTTT) of people get excited then try to crush several hours a day of language time, and they all end up getting really frustrated by not seeing quick results and they give up.
My other suggestion for keeping everything going: make sure you find things you LOVE spending time on in that language. I like watching vlogs in Japanese, for example, but I LOVE watching TV series. I feel like I could watch shows in Japanese all day and enjoy it. It's not the perfect learning environment, and I spend lots of time reading manga or news to build up vocab, I sit down and dedicate time to find example sentences for new vocab words, I review old words/phrases, etc. But at any time, I know I'll enjoy watching a show, even if I'm missing some of the understanding.
Find those staples for yourself, fill in extra time you find with secondary materials. Remember, it's all about just staying on the path. (and don't worry about those other people, whether they actually have high proficiency within a couple of years or not!)
I think it's also interesting to point out the perspective of fluency from one speaker to another. If you have an intermediary understanding of your target language then you will sound fluent to someone who doesn't know that language at all, since they can't recognize your mistakes.
Also, to get more time with my language I set at least five minutes everyday for input and output; I almost always exceed 5 minutes since it's such a low bar. It's not the speed that counts, but the direction.
Great point! Perspective matters a lot.
I think you have a strong strategy for long-term growth and even having a small goal keeps you going. Good work!
asnwering your final question, since english is my second language, its easy to keep practicing, most of the content i watch and things i study is in english, english is daily in my life.
But since i want to learn multiple other languages, i thought that a way to mantain/keep improving in a language is reading the news in that language, its hard to watch content in every language daily , but reading a page or two of news in each language you know, doesnt seems so hard, but I yet have to test this theory, i need to advance more in my third language to put this to the test.
That's very understandable. Reading, especially real-world content like the news, is very good for boosting proficiency. Yet, at the end of the day, it's all about finding the time to fit that into our busy schedules.
Like
Massive
Enormous
Gigantic thank you
Thank you
Thank you, really
You're very welcome 🙂
Thank you so much man. Can you recommend any cracked courses or stuff like that to get it done easier? In my case it´s french. Kind Regards
Bien sûr !
It depends on your level, but I will always recommend channels like Piece of French or Jamy - Epicurieux. I know of lots more, but the content those two create is interesting, compelling, and pretty accessible. Maybe I should make a french resource video soon..... 🤔
I'm a dutch native, but how do you think about English taking over everything?? there is not one day going by at work or getting out for a drink that people don't even speak dutch here in the netherlands. I learned english way quicker this way, than in school. But sometimes it's just anoying to lose some of my native language. Besides all this, your video really encouraged me to stay on track with italian 😊
That's crazy to hear! I understand that English has become the lingua franca of the world, but to learn that some places forgo their own language for it at times is a bit crazy. English can be a great tool, but I would never want it to replace or deteriorate other languages around the world.
Keep it up with your Italian studies!
@@linguacarpa The reason is that here are a lot of expats and international students. At the university everything for me was mostly in dutch. (While some courses are only available in English) but now when I walk inside the grocery store and ask for a bread or something new I can't find... they say like 'what, English please' Sometimes I like to tease them with german, but usually I give in and switch to English.
Thanks, I just started Italian, in grammer it has a lot of similarities with german, and a lot of words are similar to English so when I listen I understand more than expected ☺️
Oh and by the way you just learned me a new English word 'deteriorate'
@@myrtheengeman4787 That's still pretty surprising to hear!
I'm glad I taught you a new word! And thank you for sharing your experiences.
I'm 950 hours of listening, two years in tweeks in Portuguese and still "not good enough". I needed this video thanks
Right! So many unnecessary comparisons and subjective standards... Just keep at it and enjoy the process.
I'M A FUCKING BIO-ENGINEER IN JAPAN！ That part of the video made me laugh out loud with tears in my eyes from mixed origins! :') What are the odds... anyway I indeed feel like it takes forever to improve once you get past the basic "daily conversation" level and you can squeeze in a few biotech words like "genetically modified AAV viral vector". For the time being, I try to listen to podcast 24/7 (except while sleeping) to improve my listening comprehension, since I'm too heavily dependent on (japanese) subtitles on all my consumed media. (I'm also tired of adding new cards to my 8000+ anki deck, which might partly explain the lack of sense of improvement recently...)
That's crazy impressive. You're DEFINITELY one of the people playing the long game, hahahaha.
I like that you're taking multiple approaches already. Even if you've been really diligent with Anki, I'd say if it starts becoming off-putting just to do them, just skip them for a while and replace it with some other media you can have fun with. You gotta be able to enjoy the stuff you use long-term!
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
There are basically four phases while learning a language:
1. The beginning where everything seems insourmountable phase
2. Sponge phase
3. The the more you learn the easier it gets phase (Kanji for example. The more kanji you learn the easier it gets to learn other kanji, because on the one hand you get used to them and on the other hand you will recognize similarities (radicals).
4. The lots of effort for a small outcome phase, because you‘ve reached a level where nuances get important or special stuff or fixing bad habits. But hey if you‘ve reached this level, congratulations! There is still much to learn young padawan, but the biggest chunk lies far behind you.
Ha! I love how you explained all of this! I agree.
And then, after acquiring a few languages, you start noticing how each language requires different strategies xD
People born in latin countries have an easier time learning the other latin languages, while asians would probably have an easier time learning other asian languages.
In the end, the best strategy I found is to simply try to enjoy the language in as many flavors as possible, as a native would do: watch stuff without subtitles, play games in your target language, read books and magazines, even try to put together a couple sentences with a native speaker if you get the chance.
Aside from that, each language will have its own hurdles: most latin languages tend to have a myriad of verb conjugations, while asian languages have a ton of symbols and/or readings for each of those, so even if it's just "rote memorization" in both cases, they work somewhat differently and you might have a harder time with one or the other. And I'm not even touching on north-europe languages or african languages, because I have no experience with those.
Just... keep going.
Yes! "enjoy the language in as many flavors as possible." I love it!
You are totally right about similar languages and different strategies required over time. Very insightful.
100,000 hours is 3 hours a day for 100 years. Definitely not that long
Absolutely. But crazy to think how much time we accumulate in a native language. No wonder we have so much nuance!
Most people use less than 1000 words and know less than 3000 words even in their native languages. It's not granted that everyone, even "accumulating" hours, has so much nuances. Plus studies show than most people don't talk or read that much everyday. You can also expect an high degree of repetition. So while you want to come across as more realistic than "learn babylonian in 24 hours" and that may be true, this number is highly biased, pulled out of thin air and just for shock value by contradiction. 10000 hours is a classical number for mastery. But a language is not about this. You can be fluent in very small areas because you understand how meaning is formed, but you lack vocabulary. And that understanding is just knowing basic grammar for the most and depends a lot on the type of language. You can understand past, present and future in a day of Spanish, you will just lack the words and idioms but you could technically hold a conversation from day one as it is a simple language with very basic syntax and grammar. For German, it would take a week, but you will have to master sentence structure for space, time, interrogation and so on in addition. In my youth, I could hold a real conversation with Spanish parents after a year of high school while they never taught me it. It's not that difficult.
Just to motivate someone out there or give someone a bit of perspective. I spent about one year of serious study to have may be B2 bilingual level. After that I just mostly consumed content in that language like I would do in English. I started speaking bt I found made alot of mistakes. Bt I start speaking and it only gets better from there. I spent about 6 to 8 more months just focusing on improving myself. After that I decided to learn two more languages. Spanish and Tagalog since live in the Philippines. I would say with sharing time with this two new languages and keeping tabs on french too cuz only consistency does it. After about a hear and a half I started speaking Tagalog and about 8 months after I started speaking spanish too. One thing to keep in mind. You're gonna make mistakes bt that's the fun part of being a learner. Currently I rate myself as such:
French: C1
Spanish: B2
Tagalog: B2
English: Native.
Good luck to any desiring learner out there. ❤
Yes! Thank you! Mistakes are an important piece of the puzzle. Especially when speaking, they are a whole part of the process and honestly make it feel very real and humbling.
Everyone can do it, it just takes time, work, and patience.
Been learning Japanese about for 3 years. My reading comprehension and listening are… Decent but my spoken ability is pretty bad. I put in a fair number of hours everyday in the beginning, but I had to balance that with school, work and other adult obligations. There are definitely some diehard AJATTers who will scoff that I didn’t achieve N1 status in 18 months but even that is ridiculously hardcore for the average person.
If it takes 18 months to learn Japanese at an input rate of like 8-10 hours of immersion a day like the hardcore no-lifers do, then imagine how long it should take someone only able to put in 2-4 hours.
Anyone who tells you you can learn a language in 24 hours or a month is just straight up lying to you. And all these fake UA-cam polyglots who pretend to speak 14 languages are equally annoying. Language learning is a huge investment. You either have to make it your sole hobby and go insanely hardcore for 8-18 months (depending on the language) or you need to be patient and put in the time over years of study and immersion. There are no shortcuts, its just work and you have to learn to love it.
Yes. 100% yes. Those are the primary reasons I made this video. I see so many students (or people who aren't my students and have already given up on language) go through the phase of "I didn't get it yet so I guess I just can't do it." If you're seeing all those clickbait titles and the nonsense they claim, it's only natural you'd feel extremely discouraged. I want people to enjoy languages, and that means showing them the reality AND showing them how enjoyable that can really be.
Or learning is different for anybody and maybe you're slow at languages and for you it takes effort. And that not to disparage you that I'm telling this but for some realism. Indeed there are people who fake talking 14 language because youtube is just people trying to impress others to grab a better part of the cake. But what do you think of fake numbers pulled out of thin air? If a baby heard people talking 12 hours a day in a continued fashion that would make 365*12=4380 hours a year, and 21900 hours after 5 years. And that grossly exaggerating the time they try to understand, or actually just are exposed to meaning. Specialists say that children acquisition is very slow. Japanese is also not easy. But 6 months in any country will make you able to be fluent in a reasonably broad area as long as you pay attention to environment and not your phone. Jumping from latin to asian type is harder but if you find logics, you then have to trick your mind in going for it even if you don't feel confident.
For the record, 2 hours a day is a huge amount of time for an adult to spend on leisure/self improvement... Not getting food results might come from a bad learning method. What do you do and how do you practice?
@@user-or6mz4gy6i That's a good point, 2 hours a day IS a lot for an adult to spend on something like this if it's leisure. OP did not specify though how much time they personally spend on it, they just threw out that number as a general reference.
Regardless though, there are CERTAINLY methods that give you more value for your time. Always worth looking over what has evidence backing its utility in acquisition!
I have already studied more than 5000 hours, I moved UK for %100 immersion. I am quite sure reaching true proficiency in a language is the most difficult target we can encounter lifetime. Essipacially If we don't use complex structure in our native language , %99 of all my conversation was b1-b2 in my country how can i exceed my native language via second one , It turned challenge but reading a noval different than listening new/postcad/youtube , noval contains endless vocoblary range and really comlex structures
Yes, you're right! A majority of daily communication happens at a slightly lower proficiency (though informal language and slang can make it complicated at times).
I think combining your 100% immersion with lots of reading is a great way to build fluency but also to learn more complex structures over time. I find that formal writing is a great opportunity to improve your usage of more precise and complex language, so if you have a language class or a tutor you can use that opportunity to get more detailed.
Also, yes, I believe that learning any new language is a life-long endeavor. We never learn everything, so there's always something new!
Stop caring how long it takes!
Yes! Just keep at it!
I’m leaving this comment here to boost you in the algorithm 😊😌
My hero!! 🙌
At 8 hours a day, it would take you 34.25 years to reach 100,000 hours.
Most people are awake for about 16 hours a day though 😉
Usually 2K hours i think
It highly dependent on a lot of factors 😉
@@linguacarpa true, I speak Portuguese Brazilian and I have a Mexican friend , I learned like 50% of Spanish in 2 months
I once described my definition of fluency to an elementary school teacher. She said kids usually hit that mark at about 11 years old. If you count the hours sleeping, 100,000 hours works out to just a shade under 11-1/2 years. Checks out!
I disagree with you that language is hard. I mean kids manage to do it, all of them, even the lazy and stupid ones. But it takes a long time. Longer than most realize or acknowledge.
I'm currently working on a tough language with a crazy alphabet (Thai). I'd love to be able to communicate as well as a native five year old (seriously, your average five year old has pretty damned good language chops), but I can't really expect that at only two years in.
I would not count sleeping in language exposure time, and I'd have to know what definition of fluency you discussed with that school teacher, but it sounds interesting.
You're entitled to your opinion there, but it really depends what you mean by hard. You yourself, learning Thai, understand that languages can be tough and that it takes a lot of time to even be able to communicate like a 5-year-old. I don't think anything "easy" takes several years just to scratch the surface, but that's my perspective. You are so right about young kids though, that when it comes to a native language, even the little guys are incredibly proficient when compared to someone's second language! I wish I were good enough at Japanese to even attend kindergarten!
hi
Hi!
A did a Little math 24*7 = 168 * 54= around 8000 Hours, so you say to be fluent you need around 10+ years, thats bs sorry
I'm not even sure where you're pulling these numbers from. Could you elaborate? You may also notice that I never gave an exact number of hours to be fluent during the video, because I don't think a firm number exists.
@@linguacarpa 24 hours a day × 7 days = 164 hours in a week × 54 weeks per year = 8k hours a year, though it's closer to 9k
@@egman-kat But what is the 24/7 even for? No one is awake or using language 24/7, and there only 52 weeks a year. Again, not sure what you're trying to explain here. Happy to discuss if you can clarify first.
-Ah, just realized you aren't even the original poster. All the same, not sure what you guys are getting at!
@@linguacarpa so your proving my point thanks
@@linguacarpa you can be at a good level in 6 months and fluent or even proficient in under 2 years if you study hard enough