My sister lived in Japan for over a year, yet I know more Japanese than her because of cognitive immersion at home. Just living somewhere doesn't mean as much when learning a language. However, she knows more culturally in daily Japanese life as a result.
Thank you for adding this comment. I'm trying to learn Japanese, and with no one around to speak it with and no financial method to go there, it's been very discouraging in this regard.
@@retropulse03 learning japanese on your own would have been difficult 30 years ago before internet... but nowadays, actually being in japan may be an obstacle (if your goal is to simply learn japanese - it is much more efficient to do it staying in your room without expending time on travelling or mundane minutia of living in japan)
I did cognitive immersion for two years, moved to Japan, and now a year later with both cognitive and lifestyle immersion I still wouldn't even consider myself really conversational 🙃
You might be more conversational than you realise. Sometimes I feel like I can barely say stuff in Swedish but then I go and look at the recording and it was actually just that I was saying something with heaps of different parts to it. Basically, it's like being able to run faster... it doesn't feel faster because the whole point is that you're making it easier by practicing.
People say "Immersion" when they mean to say "Input". I suspect this is because of AJATT, since Khatzumoto recommended pretty much spending your entire day "immersed" in Japanese to maximise input, this then spread through Matt into Refold, and hence, into you and your community.
@@Alec72HD I have a question about your experience in the academy. In the beginning how did you start to learn L2 words? Was it through associations or were you allowed to translate in order to pick up vocabulary?
@@Alec72HD if this is true that is pretty amazing and impressive and gives me a lot of hope. However to be totally frank, one thing I have to say is that A1-A2 after 7 years of “study” is beyond pathetic. How on earth could someone only reach that level even if they were studying Chinese? (And only know English). Unless someone has some kind of learning disability, I would really have to question how much “studying” they are really doing at all.
Teacher of 10 years here, the whole time I was explaining this difference to my students as “creating your own language bubble” VS “molding your bubble with the environment” 😂 has worked so far but love to steal your nice definitions
Thank you for breaking about the word into seperate terms and helping to explain this a bit more clearly. I've had a friend who had been trying to learn another language and I've been struggling along trying to explain this to them. So thank you again for making both my life and his a little bit easier.
Perhaps the 'immersion = living there' is a holdover from earlier times. When I was younger, it could be safely assumed in England that if somebody was fluent in a foreign language, then they had lived in the country. This is because teaching materials were so inadequate, and the idea of listening to audiobooks in a foreign language would have got you blank looks. Often the only big audio materials you could get were , for example, 8 half-hour cassettes read by actors as part of a 'Teach Yourself X' course. So the only way to hear lots of native material was to be in the country, or possibly try to pick up a radio station.
Yeah... I mean, to me it's kind of obvious where the misconception came from, but it's also not really important. I think there is also a "I can't until..." attitude that clouds the issue. So, you say "To learn German, you want to watch shows in German with German subtitles not English ones." and people are like "Oh no I can't, I need the English subtitles." They don't realise that you don't ACTUALLY die of lack of comprehension.
@@daysandwords Why does immersion work? Why is using existing brain circuits that do English not help as much as immersing in German? I have been told that :- Learning/cognitive activity stimulate the proliferation and differentiation of oligodendrocyte precursor cells (OPCs). These OPCs then developing into mature oligodendrocytes that produce new myelin sheath. I don't completely understand it...but I do know that myelin speeds up brain signals by a factor of 100. So if you immerse, your brain is actually going to work much faster on the paths dealing with the new input. I found that myself. I woke up one day, and Germans weren't speaking too fast, because I could literally hear faster. That's the only way to describe it. I could hear faster.
"I woke up one day, and Germans weren't speaking too fast, because I could literally hear faster. That's the only way to describe it. I could hear faster." Yeah... hmm, for me, it actually does seem like they're speaking more slowly though. Funnily enough, it speeds up how fast you hear even in OTHER languages. Like a few months ago, I was watching a video that turned out to be an April fools joke, but I was just super interested in everything she was saying... and I got to the end and realised it was in French. My French comprehension was never that good until I learned Swedish to "full speed comprehension"... Now, my French comprehension seems much better.
I'm an older person who dreamed of going on an immersion course or sending my son to one, but never had the money (and he never actually wanted to), so it's still the 1st place my brain goes to even though I know that's not what people really mean. The best my Spanish ever got was when I was taking a lot of Spanish classes at university, working for a Mexican company, listening to Spanish-language radio & not subscribing to cable (pre-streaming days) and 1/2 the channels that came in decently were mostly Mexican. In my mind at the time, that wasn't immersion because I could still easily default back to English almost any time I felt like it - and my Spanish gets a lot more rapid fire when I go a day or two without being able to code switch at will.
@daysandwords I'm quite early in my language learning journey, but I have experienced that last part after I started learning Mandarin. As with you my Spanish was never that good but recently I've been not autotranslating but just understanding words. It might have something to do with me stopping my spanish practice so I can only rely on almost muscle memory. Rather than understanding being a process of translation, it is the default. I'd like to know your thoughts
I learnt French in France sitting in front of my PC using a website in English. Although I was living in France, my knowledge of French was zero. Only when I understood how the language worked I was able to take advantage of living in the language target country
how I define it. ** I/O = Input / Output; immersion: replace the I/O of ones life to the target language. depth of immersion: the % of different I/O of ones life that got changed into the target language. So we could immerse just our tippy toes and change one thing or we could dive head first with complete lifestyle immersion, input and output immersion, basically changing the complete language of ones life. By this definition your brother could mean: At what point of language learning could my output lead to a feedback of deeper input immersion?
I support this distinction. it creates a new dimension that allows for a lot more of the complexity and nuance of real-world experiences. I learned Spanish living as an American in America, and I've met more than a handful of people who've lived here more years than I've been alive who barely speak any English. physical immersion doesn't equal cultural or mental immersion. the availability of resources in the Internet Age makes this distinction even more important. between audiobooks and youtube for content and ChatGPT for explanations and drills, the barrier to entry has never been lower. we have so many new tools to utilize for immersion, it makes sense that we have new words to explain the subtleties and nuances that go with it
My definition of immersion is simple: coming to understand a language through reading and listening in context, as apposed to learning out of context (aka textbooks, explainations, word lists etc).
Well, that's more "input" than immersion. To be clear: there'd be absolutely no problem at all, if everyone had the same definition. But they definitely do not.
For me, immersion method of learning a language means being taught in the target language from the start. Most language classes will talk ABOUT the language in the native language and then practice the language. But immersion requires all of it to be in the target language. For Spanish, I learned a lot ABOUT Spanish but I really didn't start internalizing anything until Spanish 3 when the entire class was in Spanish with a no English rule. But for my ASL classes, everything was ASL only no English from day 1 and I was able to start communicating in ASL pretty quickly without overly relying on scripts.
If I am immersed in water and I do nothing, I will choke and drown, which, certainly, I would rather not. But if I move my arms and legs in proper way, I will float to the surface, hopefully. It is not so important that I am just immersed in water. What really matters is what I do while being immersed. Speaking of "language immersion", the two points to consider, it seems to me, are: 1. Immersing myself into the language, WHERE am I immersing myself into? 2. WHAT should I do to start finally understand and speak new language? So that, if I mistakenly believe that "water" means "ice" and that "swimming" means "skating", I'm bound to drown. As always, the question of success or failure is a question of doing right things.
I am really glad that you were able to articulate these ideas. I believe we can better assess ourselves by placing our learning hours into these 2 groups. Cognitive LI and Lifestyle LI. For example, I have been learning Ukrainian for the past 2 years. The reason being is that I moved to a new area and the Church I attend is 85% Ukrainian people. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday I have a private lessons with a tutor currently residing in Ukraine. Then on Sunday I spend the entire day with my Ukrainian friends who speak only Ukrainian and I am around Ukrainian culture events. So one could say I am experiencing 75% CLI and 25% LLI . I also believe LLI has to be experienced in person. Wearing an Apple Vision pro and taking a virtual tour around Kyiv (or your target languages capital) would not elicit the same neurological responses as would be if you were physically present around people and culturally significant ideas.
I think i prefer the term "comprehensible input", because people who recommend "immersion" seem to conveniently forget about the "comprehensible" part all the time. Which is what i thought your brother was asking - how much do you need to understand in order to (efficiently) learn new things from context? Or, if "comprehensible input" seems too technical, just go with the age old "if you want to become good at X, you need to do a lot of X".
The problem with the term "comprehensible input" is when you say that a normie (any of the 99%), they'll very much NOT comprehend. People who throw around the term comprehensible input forget that they should try to use comprehensible terms to speak with. When you say "Cognitive language immersion", they'll then ask what that means.
The confusion is understandable. It's all about changes in technology over the decades. There are so many opportunities for cognitive language immersion at home now. That wasn't always the case. When the term immersion was first used, being in country really was your best bet for improving your speech and listening skills. Another good (but expensive) option would be a full-time immersion school. Just a few decades ago, your at-home listening options options included expensive recordings, and maybe if you were close enough, a radio or TV station broadcasting from across the border. (That would be quite a trick in Australia btw.) So this is a case where we need our definitions to catch up with our technology.
Great video and very spot on.. I'm Swedish, but lived in Australia for a couple of years.. I've done these different things, learned English in school, then got good engouh to watch TV without subtitles, reading books in English etc. Once you get to that point, and deliberately choose to keep exposing yourself to the language, you get better at it.. By the time I moved to Australia my english was good enough people accepted me as basically English speaking with an odd accent. This is where most people would be considered fluent and happy with their second language, so cognitive immersion is really the big thing I think.. For lifestyle immersion, I lived in Australia for four years, and only spoke Swedish to my parents back home, otherwise I used English everywhere, home, at work, etc. Today, even after many years in Sweden, you can still hear the effect Australian immersion had on me, it polished off a lot of rough edges and gave me an accent that is still there... So if you truly want to sound like a native, this is where lifestyle immersion is a must I think..
I met a guy like you working at H&M in Stockholm. He was Swedish but had lived in Australia for 19 years (from the age of 19 to 38 or so), and he had the thickest Australian accent in Swedish that I'd ever heard haha. It was the weirdest conversation... because here I am sounding mostly Swedish, and he's there sounding Australian... speaking Swedish... in Sweden... two almost Australian people.
I took your advice for watching a show 50 time and around 20 time of a show’s dub, I feel like I e made actual progress with Spanish. Just wanted to say you’ve made legitimate breakthroughs that have yet to be fully scientifically studied, but I think there are merit to some of your methodologies 🔥👌
What show might I ask? I’ve been coincidentally watching my target lang dub of the office us. at 76h of runtime all seasons - the office seems like a good one to watch at least 5 times over before moving on. I’ve also JUST watched it all the way through in english, but i’m interested to see what others are watching
3:24 the way I see it being used still feels very related to how it’s used normally. Typically when people say immersion it really is “this language is all there is around you, you see it all the time” and when I see people talking about independent study via immersion it’s “switch devices to another language and get 60-100% of the context you consume to be in another language”
I remember the usage shifting with people saying ‘you can recreate immersion at home with media’ until eventually people just said immersion for input. I think just talking about getting input or even just reading and listening works fine for communicating with anyone outside of the ‘immersion learning community’.
Great video. "That's not good because that's not true." Moreover, to an American ear, it is even more true when you say it with an Aussie accent. Thanks for making this one.
What people also get wrong is that they will just magically understand words and grammar if they just hear them enough times. No, you actually need to learn them too. You need to translate the words you don't know into English, then learn them. You need to understand why the same word may be written differently. You need to understand why there's "random" がs, はs, etc all over the place. I've tried to just learn words and grammar through immersion as a beginner, and I've never never gotten any closer to understanding anything, especially tenses and how verbs interact with the person they're with. Wasted a load of time. Maybe it's just me, but the academic side which everyone hates on is completely necessary if I want to be able to form my own sentences. Pure immersion with no grammar study whatsoever would be fine if I just wanted to be able to watch anime without subtitles, but I want more than that, I want to be able to use the words and rules I know to make my own sentences and be able to speak and write. I couldn't even understand how to write in the present tense before learning the necessary grammar before it. Japanese is very different from English and especially French. I feel confident I could learn something like Italian or Portuguese just from immersion with no study because their grammar is very similar to French so all I'd need to remember for that is the new suffixes, but Japanese is _way_ too different for that.
It's going to be very different between Japanese and say, Dutch, or Swedish... But it also sounds like it is just you, to an extent. Because there are lots of people who didn't "learn" the way you said and speak fluent Japanese or Mandarin, with very few mistakes.
A simplistic way I like to describe it is that the brain hates not understanding communication. When we take away the option to use a language we are fluent in and force ourselves to interpret another language, the brain will start to slowly piece together the new language over time. It's the same way we learn language as kids, we use context clues combined with learned knowledge of the world to create a language model. As adults it's actually even easier as we have way more knowledge of the world to give us additional context for learning new things. People who are in another country, but only use their most fluent language 99% of the time aren't going to learn much besides some basic phrases since they aren't forcing their brain to adapt in any way. That's why watching something like anime with English subtitles doesn't allow anime fans to be magically fluent in Japanese. On the otherhand, there also has to be some active studying to make meaningful progress. Studying vocabulary and grammar, while also getting input work together to create a cycle of learning and reinforcement. That's usually where traditional classroom language classes fail. The students often do learn some of the language, but with no reinforcement of that knowledge outside of the classroom, they'll just forget everything in a few months. Even people who travel or even live in other countries, often I'll hear, "My French improved so much when I went to France, bit I can't really speak it anymore." Languages have to be actively used to stick around in our heads.
Very good. Another point: If you go to a country with someone else or your family, the level of immersion is determined by the least committed person; perhaps practically none. Do you want to leave the house on time? You'll talk in English to make sure that happens.
As an English-speaking (and teaching) German living in the gringo-capital of Ecuador, I could not agree more. I met plenty of people who live here and speak no Spanish at all and still, around the world you find some people with great English who haven't lived at all or for very long in an English-speaking country. And if you don't really want to learn or don't have the right mindset, not even the combination of the two will help you learn... Awesome video!
@daysandwords "Normie", As in a normal person? Most normal people you can just tell them "It's slang, normally referring to watching content in a language that you're learning, weather it be watching TV, or reading something, it's better to use the word "Input" for this as Steven Krashen used the word input for language learning"
This definitely needs to be the new standard. I use things like turning all my electronics and games to my L2 as well as speaking in discord with random strangers from, in my case, Brazil. I did go to Brazil for a couple weeks with no one but myself and it was a great experience to realize how people speak in person vs online and cultural differences and how it influences slang. It made me realize I took it way to seriously and it started to be fun again. Thanks for the video.
DUDE - Thank you! I hear "Immersion" and it absolutely, completely, sounds like you're expected to go and exist someplace where the target language is essentially your only option to speak/listen/learn. I live in SLC, and I haven't the slightest clue where I am going to find ANYONE who speaks Japanese. I sure AF can't afford to travel to Japan either. It's been SO discouraging to hear "immersion, immersion, immersion" and just feel like it's so out of reach.
I"d say learning a language is not a passive effort. It takes an intentional effort to set things up and learn by giving life to the language and cognitively realizing when you've made a mistake and why. Paying attention to why people do or say certain things and making it a part of your day. You don't have to go to a country physically its just immersing yourself in the experience of this language through many means. Just going to a country doesn't give you incite, the experience if long enough and integrated enough sure you'll be forced to learn depending where you are, but its not ultimately necessary.
Talking about “immersion schools” or “immersion classes” is pretty common and just means the language of instruction is in the target language. So a German immersion class would be 99 percent in German after day one. A Chinese immersion school would be 99 percent in Mandarin in math, science, Chinese, PE, music and art. I guess you would have English in English class.
It's important to emphasise that doing more hours in the language is not the GOAL of immersion, it's the MEANS. The GOAL of immersion is that more of your learning is passive because active study is arduous whereas passive learning is not. This is why it's so difficult to get a child to "study"; they've learnt everything in their lives so far passively and they don't understand why they would need to work in order to attain the same result. But in adults that is reversed: they ONLY think they can learn through study.
I love your distinction as I also realized that many people don’t grasp the difference and there is a big one. I would prefer saying “physical immersion” instead of “lifestyle immersion” as lifestyle as a concept could include cognitive immersion like social media.
Yeah, I did actually mention the overlap... But UA-cam videos and stuff would be cognitive immersion because you don't need to have any kind of lifestyle that reflects that, e.g. I still watched baseball while I was in Sweden. But "physical immersion" really only sounds like water to me. You can be lifestyle immersed without being physically immersed, like my example of Swedish gatherings in Sydney.
@@daysandwords I see! At the end it’s just words that try to explain concepts. I usually don’t really care a lot about words, and I notice that conceptually we mean the same thing anyways! Thanks for your effort you put into your videos, they’re very informative to watch and pleases my inner language nerd 🙏
I understand what you're saying but words are the best we have to explain concepts... Words are not actually that great at explaining concepts, but they can be better if they're at least well defined and agreed upon. That's the problem with the term "immersion". It means a different thing to everyone.
@@daysandwords I agree, in the end we are forced to use words to be able to describe what concept we think of so there’s no other way than to agree upon definitions at the end of the day. Either way I agree with your observation and hopefully more people will catch up to it! 😁
PS thanks for the Storytel recommendation. that's a game-change right there. I didn't mind terribly spending an audible credit on a Spanish book since I can at least understand them, but I would've felt the pain of spending credits on German kids books just to play as background noise. now I have the Wheel of Time series in Spanish (36 hours per book times fourteen books makes 21 straight days worth of content. lol!) and I have so many series in German bookmarked for when I can finally understand them. wh40K and the Artemis Fowl series, you will be mine, oh yes!
Funnily enough, my brother made a similar comment to me this week. When I mentioned I wanted to spend some time to immerse in French when I had more free time, he immediately assumed I wanted to move to France. It honestly hadn’t occurred to me that this was the assumption people would make.
Yep, see! Exactly! Some people in this comments section have said "Oh we should really say input" and I'm like "Yeah that's way clearer to people who only half care about this stuff..."
I like the script-great to think abou. The music throughout is a great touch, the recording/mixing/mastering is very clean, and I thought the thumbnail was quite cool 😂
I have a friend I knew when we were both starting college, she was utterly convinced she needed to move to Italy, or at least visit Italy, to learn Italian well, and furthermore she had (still has) this idea that it was the only way to learn it well. 10 years later she still hasn't gone to Italy, and she never learned Italian beyond buongiorno, buonanotte, buonasera because she could never commit to the discipline it requires to learn a language (because she was utterly convinced she would learn when she was there). I always thought it was a very dumb view.
Immersion is a funny thing 😅 Generally speaking, immersion is being immersed or surrounded by a language. The problem is that this is not always enough, it certainly helps, though, since being surrounded by a language is motivating. It works for some people but doesn't work for others. I learnt Italian to C2 just by living in Italy, although, now that I really think about it, I kept a diary, studied verb tenses, read newspapers, made a group of friends and chatted right from the start and most importantly, sat in bars drinking coffee and just listening. A friend of mine, on the other hand, came to live here in Italy for a year and didn't pick up anything, simply because he didn't make that conscious effort. I know people who have lived here for 5 years and still don't know more than the basics. The number one key ingredient is motivation, no matter where you're living! 😉
Been there, done that. Went to UK to study in high school there, yet my English didn't improve as much as it did for my peers (it was an international school). In fact I found that I learned more from movies, tv series and youtube. That was because I very rarely spoke with natives, and also because I thought that "I will learn English very fast when I'll get there" so I had never really studied it before going to UK. So that was a waste of money... Now, not having been to an English-speaking country for several years, I have a better level of English thanks to just consuming everything English for these several years. I kinda regret not learning English better before the trip or simply not postponing it for some years just to level it up and only then go to UK. Anyway, it was a useful experience for me as it was my first second language. Now I'm learning Spanish, and a thought of moving to a Spanish-speaking country has never even crossed my mind (thank god). I actually don't even wanna travel there, I just like learning new languages now :)
My cheap immersion. Going a mile and a half to the barrio and volunteering all day working with Spanish speakers. Puts me on the spot dredging up vocabulary from memory. Not perfect but it beats once a month meetups with other learners of various levels.
I agree with this, I lived in Mexico and Peru and had not studied any Spanish before that. I studied some while there and was able to hold basic conversations, but I'm still alot better at other languages like Russian which is a country I have never even visited.
There are a lot of people who speak very good English despite never living in an English-speaking country. You definitely don't need to be in the country to reach a proficient level.
You don't need to, to reach a proficient level... However, there is some stuff that is just much BETTER learned in the country. There are tonnes of words that will just never come up in material from that country, but will come up all the time IN that country.
@@daysandwordsSometimes you can get some of that vocabulary from your language partner. I talk about day to day things with one of my language partners and have learned a lot of practical vocabulary that I never hear in podcasts, TV series or read in books. For example, we talk about home maintenance which includes many words that every native speaker knows but you won’t normally hear. Of course, just going to a supermarket in the country will expose you to a lot of vocabulary that you won’t get from cognitive LI.
Comprehensible immersion and incomprehensible immersion. Living in the target country can deliver incomprehensible input, which won't lead to acquisition. But living under a rock listening to beginner podcasts can deliver comprehensible input, which leads to acquisition.
My first language is German and I live in Germany - last year I spent 7 months in Stockholm and actually really wanted to learn the language but because almost none of my friends there spoke Swedish, my level stayed quite low. On the other hand, I was constantly immersed in English and became really confident speaking the language that I before mostly consumed or reproduced in writing, which obviously is a very different dynamic.
For me, I always thought that immersion was about getting surrounded by the language, listening and reading. Basically, getting used to the language, not carrying if you are living in another country or not
Exactly. But there are other comments on this video from people who had been thinking that you absolutely do need to be in the country for it to be called immersion. Both people are saying immersion, but they mean completely different things.
8:11 I've been leaving in Italy for 3 years and my level is about a2. But in these 3 years I was watching English yt, reading documentation, sitting on different subreddits, and now I can listen and watch everything, even things like Monty Python or Rick and Morty. I can speak and write about anything I wanted so for without translator (and I'm aware of my grammar problems). Not the fastest progression for ~4000h or yt, but it was just a tool
You don't necessarily need to be in a country speaking your target language in order to truly learn how to speak and understand it. Once school taught me enough English that I could make progress on my own, I went online and started texting with native English speakers, started watching youtube videos and shows in English and talked to people via a mic online. Nowadays, when I meet new people, they think I'm a native speaker in English because I don't have a German accent (validated by some native speakers I met in bars before as well), all while I've never, ever put a foot into an English speaking country. As long as you're actually willing to put in the effort and choose the right materials, you can become perfectly fluent and accent-free just using the internet and other forms of entertainment, imo. Though I would still recommend an actual teacher. We are forced to take English classes here in Germany form grade 3 until we graduate, so that also helps a ton. But I know people who've had the exact same amount of English classes I had and they aren't nearly as fluent as I am, so my method (immersing myself in English content) must have worked.
Some kind feedback for the creator: It took me a while-well past the video’s introduction-to understand what the 'problem' was, and even now, I’m not entirely convinced. The example of the 'bicycle community' agreeing on what a 'wheel' is makes sense, but isn’t that precisely the point? The language learning community largely agrees on what 'immersion' means, so there doesn’t seem to be much concern about making it less 'vague.' It’s true that some people think moving to another country will help them learn the local language, but it feels like an overstatement to suggest most believe they’ll learn it without proper exposure. You can move abroad and never leave your house. You can buy a bike and never cycle. The point is that people would usually agree that language learning requires practice (or use, exposure...), and that it is mostly a mental activity. Physically being somewhere is not enough. I have never heard of someone saying otherwise.
"The language learning community largely agrees on what 'immersion' means, so ..." No, I don't think we do "largely agree". I probably could make it clearer what the problem is, but I am saying that if you get 10 different people together who are different kinds of language learners (some enthusiast, some just travelling, some interested in learning one day etc etc.), then you'll get at least 3 definitions of what "immersion" is. Your comment only serves to cement the idea that the LL community does NOT agree on what it means.
I totally agree. Just like the term fluent, the term immersion is used differently in the polyglot community and I’ve sort of tried to push back, but it’s hopeless.
I always step around this issue when I talk to people on reddit or irl by saying "consume content". Language normies definitely interpret immersion as living in another country, and simply saying "I got pretty good at [language] by consuming hundreds of hours of content" makes them understand way easier.
I like the distinction. I recently had several people ask me things like "how can you get immersion" regarding a language and it was clear that they didn't understand the way I did
For me I expose myself to a lot of that daily language, like with Korean. Once I’ve gotten good enough and trained myself to be able to read many words and understand sentences with grammar points. I switch my media to that languages media slowly, I start watching cartoons only in that language. Even when I write, I write in that language, expect when I’m at school.
soooooooooo I dont think this comment will get attention at all but its worth the shot I'm brazillian who became almost (keyword ALMOST) english fluent as a little child, and all I did was listening to songs (gacha life story videos) and reading english stories (more gacha life story videos) even though i couldnt understand anything. Now im trying to learn japanese bc i really enjoy vocaloid, J-pop, J-rock and anything similar. sorry it doesnt have anything to do with the culture im a music enthusiast lol (but i had a wizard english course as backup plan so thats how i learned how to form sentences n things) the thing is people constantly talk about consuming content, but i've been listening to songs in japanese for around 4 years now, (and searching for the meanings and translation bc thats just really cool) and thats basically the method I used with english, and the only thing i learned are some basic words like anata, yume, atashi etc; ik japanese is a MUCH more complicated language than english and lots more of investment in the learning but idk man 😭 am i in the right path?
I've definitely not an expert, but I would say there's no way you'll learn Japanese from just songs or even just reading stories. I would say there's also a fair chance that as a child you had other exposure to English than what you remember, to get you where you got there. But look at it this way, your exposure to Japanese has likely got you comfortable with the accent and feel of the language, so if you pick up textbook or class learning now you've got a head start. I'm learning Japanese as one of my languages and I'm loving it!
I lived in the country where the language was spoken, and it was not beneficial to my language learning. It was in Prague. Employed in an international company to speak my native language, otherwise communication was happening in English. People of my generation, living in a European capital, all speak English already and natives don't want to hear their language spoken badly, so everything happened in English privately as well. Despite that, there was always some other expat around, who was not learning Czech, so most of the time English was the only language all participants had in common. If I wanted to speak Czech, I had to seek out somebody privately and hope they would endure my stammer for an hour or so. The lifestyle immersion might have worked in 1950 Paris, but it is difficult to pursue in a borderless, multicultural Europe. Every bit of Czech I have learnt, I have acquired through private study and cognitive immersion.
Do they still look down on foreigners there? I found the city beautiful but people seemed resented, maybe at earning 10000 month while we expats were getting three times that.
@@julianbennett4919 No, the people are earning normal salaries. It is not a poverty-stricken region, even though of course the wages are lower than they are in the west. I wouldn't say that they look down on foreigners, but they often seemed confused that somebody would choose their country as an expert, and attempts to learn the language were certainly more besmirched than encouraged. If you try to speak Czech with natives, you cannot make mistakes. They will correct everything or switch to English. Unlike speakers of bigger languages, the Czechs are not used to hear their language spoken by intermediate learners. So speaking or not speaking Czech is seen as something completely binary.
another environment that could perhaps qualify as “lifestyle language immersion” would be living in a household where the primary language differs from the dominant language in their country. wish i could say i was fluent in hindi after over two decades of constantly hearing hindi in my house, but i am in the unfortunate throes of receptive bilingualism. compare that to mandarin, where i’ve been taking a cognitive language immersion approach, and after a year, i’m MUCH more likely to be able to express myself in mandarin than i am able to express myself in hindi. or even just understand a random podcast episode, read a book, or watch a tv show. the LLI-ish environment i describe is pretty specific, though. the majority of your communication is likely still in the dominant language of your country. the type of language you’re exposed to is typically restricted to daily life. and there’s a lot of specific emotions that come with the resulting receptive bilingualism that can have a cognitive impact on motivation if you ever decide to actively learn the language. even if you do try to learn the speaking aspect, you’re not met with surprise that you can speak the language at all, but rather surprise that you can’t speak the language well. you can’t be the “white guy who shocks natives with fluent hindi”. i can imagine there’s some extra element needed to make LLI work, and that simply being in the environment is not enough on its own. i certainly wouldn’t know because i’m not moving anywhere soon so i can’t speak to its efficacy, but i dislike the concept that moving somewhere is the only way to acquire a language, especially when i’ve seen evidence to the contrary.
There's also the fact that these different language learning terms are not binaries, either ones or zeros. There is high quality comprehensible input and low quality just as there is high and low quality forms of immersion. Of course when you get into comprehensible input it has a very basic requirement that it refers to a piece of language that is understandable. You can have things designed to be GOOD for comprehensible input, but for a particular person because of their particular skill or experience, the same video could be more or less comprehensible. So the aim is to make what you consume as comprehensible as possible in any given situation which is kinda like going on a long car trip and to keep having to switch radio stations to stay tuned in to the one you want. That is also the reason Krashen keeps focusing on compelling input, because the interest in a particular topic or story is a force multiplier for learning and attention span. That's also where his research on being comfortable and being able to learn language comes in. If people felt anxiety or panic about learning a language, that part of their brain seems like it basically just shuts off. Now imagine that you're in a new country trying to immerse yourself or being forced to immerse yourself and you need medical care or feel lonely or whatever. Some people thrive on being put on the spot like that, but it can wreck your ability to pay attention to the language.
That's an old school term that used to mean the opposite of learning a language from a textbook while using your L1. We have Duolingo now, so neither are necessary. ;-)
Just to be a contrarian to others saying "input" is the correct word, I'd like to point out that "immersion" as a concept has always been about picking up language through input. As others have come round to dispute that it solely means "being in another country" I'd like to ask then how there are plenty of people who live in their target languages country and yet don't pick up a lick of the language. That's because those people aren't IMMERSING in the language. It encompasses having to pick up things through listening, hearing and understanding as much as you can by surrounding yourself by the language. I just think that they explain the same action/ concept except immersion has a broader reach. Confusing stuff either way.
"Just to be a contrarian to others saying "input" is the correct word, I'd like to point out that "immersion" as a concept has always been about picking up language through input." Yeah I'm with you that we shouldn't say "input" either, as that doesn't make things clearer. As for your second paragraph, I addressed that very thing.
I used to think moving to an English-speaking country was the best way to learn the language, but not anymore in this day and age. I'm still learning, but I don't have any plans to go abroad anytime soon.
I think that your brother's idea of "immersion"--i.e., deepening language competence because of the many emergent life-situations one must negotiate when one lives among people who speak the language-is the OLDER sense of the term. I think the sense one sees now in the "language learning community" (i.e., immersion = cognitive LI) is a RELATIVELY NEW EXTENSION of this idea: namely, that one can create _something like that older sense of immersion_ by some combination of watching series, talking online, reading, etc. I would call this "simulated" LI. It's kind of like: YES, you CAN have a salt-water aquarium in your living room in Arizona. (With a little bit of: NO, there's nothing weird about me that I spend all my spare time doing stuff in this other language. It's my at-home immersion program!) That is, it is a derivative, extended, analogical use--and the older use is the root, not a misconception at all. Remembering the older meaning of "lifestyle LI" gives one a standard by which to judge "cognitive LI"-or at least, "simulated LI." Similar hours, similar range of engagement, similar challenges, similar feedback? I would say that intensive study BEFORE one reaches the level of gaining (much) progress from speed-of-life interaction with native speakers and native content is just that: intensive study. Extending the "immersion" idea downward from "simulated lifestyle LI" to include the work needed to START to benefit from "simulated lifestyle LI" is, well, a further extension. Using the words in this way, I would say that your brother could do enough intensive study to be able to benefit from real OR simulated lifestyle LI. (But: grey area warning!: the simulated life-style LI can be adjusted to be slower, or easier, or less high stakes; so one can get to the point of benefiting from the simulated before one can benefit from in-person lifestyle LI.) That said: I totally agree that thinking one will just "pick up" the language is delusional (and is a wide-spread delusion-especially among people who have learned about 20 basic expressions and think they are half-way to fluency). And, as an introvert who has now experienced covid while traveling, I can affirm that just being in the country, even if one has a rather high level of understanding of the language, doesn't necessarily entail very many interaction-seconds per day! (Unless one has to go looking for medical help-which I didn't.)
Yeah his idea of it is definitely the older sense of it... But, that's not my point in this video. I don't care who had the word "first"... The normies are (understandably) using the OLDER sense of it. My point is that enthusiasts like myself should stop just saying "immersion" to mean something that most people don't understand it to mean.
Hey Lamont. Love your videos. Do you still recommend Speakly as part of our language learning toolbox or would storylearning be a better option? Or both?? Cheers!
Depends on the language. I haven't tested Speakly for a while but I really liked its approach, and they have Finnish and Estonian, which StoryLearning does not. StoryLearning is probably more interesting overall, and they cost about the same.
They will do one. The links may change before then though, so if you look at my videos that are coming out around then, you'll have the updated links (if they need updating).
I usually just say something along the lines of "inputting" or "getting a lot of input" when I discuss language learning with normies. It's a much more easily understood term than immersion in my experience.
In my experience, even "input" isn't clear. So I just say "watch a lot of tv, read a lot, and listen to podcasts". This they understand, and if they want more detail than that, they'll ask.
Whatever happened to listening and reading? Why do people think they're cool being more vague - and I'm not pointing at you - it's the entire trend on the internet. There's literally no mode beyond listening and reading, it is not sign language. Inputting is an elitist term, it makes it sound more esoteric and profound. If we want to help people this is the opposite of what we'd want to say. Because it distances them from making the conclusion they need to make: you learn & RETAIN a language by actually using the damned thing. Not nonsense workbook exercise, not nonsense flashcards, etc. until the end of the time, but actual real language. We have so many, for example, ethnic Chinese that speak like a 3rd grader who come on the internet and ask what they need to do (like there is a magic formula). They need to do what they did since 3rd grade for their English: talk a ton with their family, watch a bunch of shows or listen to radio.
Seriously, the people you generally speak with, don't know the perfectly ordinary word 'immersion'? Where on earth do you live, or what kind of company do you keep?
Yeah... exactly. I was going to use something that I actually know about, but it turned out to be really complicated because the things I know about all have really complex terminology, e.g. photography stuff. People often mistake f stop for focal length, as well as focus POINT... And they think "zoom" means really long lenses, but it just means lenses that change focal length.
Should I learn the standard variant of a language first before learning my target dialect? Ex) My s/o speaks Austrian German (Wein), but is it recommended I skip this localization until after I have a grasp on standard German?
Hmm, it depends. That's a bit of a tricky situation... but I'd probably go for the standard dialect first because there's just heaps more content in it, so you're likely to start sounding that way anyway... and then you can more consciously "learn" the dialect once you understand 99% of German.
Thanks for pointing out the difference between "casual language learners" (the 99%) and the ones who make it work. I usually don't believe in anything being black-or-white but language learning is one of the few things I think it applies to. Might sound reductive and maybe a little harsh but in my experience with language learning you're either in or you're out. To learn a language well you have to put everything you have into it. You have to be obsessed with it or it won't work (well), or take a long, long time and will come with massive gaps in your knowledge.
I think you can be just "quite interested" in your learning, but you need to do that for heaps longer. I have never ever done that for anything, except maaaaybe music (and even then, try telling my uni buddies that I was only "quite interested" in music). I'm always all in for like 1 to 4 years, 4 years if I'm lucky. But my friend Klaudia from Poland was just interested in Swedish consistently for like 17 years and speaks freakin' incredible Swedish.
This is a good video. I often go to the park on my lunch break and sometimes there is a man sitting on my favourite bench, under a tree smoking a cigerette. Have you ever eaten cheese on rice before?
I appreciate your concern for my poor spelling, it's something I am aware of and keeps me worrying when people tell us the machines are gonna take our jobs. Did you consider the cheese on rice question?
Awesome video, it has been kinda bothering me everytime I hear people recommend "immersion" without explaining what it is because almost makes me think it's hurting more than it is helping. About the Spanish in your video: If you're referring to your viewers I think los quiero sounds better, or te quiero. Using usted is a bit unnatural in this context and sounds more like "I want it😠" (L1).
I see, the distinction is rather useful. I will remember this when I tell people I immerse myself, although I never really immerse. I'll say learning, for example. I simply listen, watch, read etc. along with study. It's not possible to travel for me.
When I hear "immersion" my mind starts showing me pictures of being engulfed with water and the imminent danger of drowning. And drowning basically was, I think, what your brother was experiencing. Isn't the important thing what some people also call "comprehensible input", and loads of it? And as soon as colloquial language starts to be comprehensible to you, you might benefit from going to the country where the language is spoken. I would even venture a guess that input that is barely comprehensible, i.e. where you might have to concentrate from time to time, is what would make you to progress the fastest.
@@daysandwords Actually I'm suggestion that I might not be the only one who has that association. I mean "immersion" in this context is more like a figure of speech, the primary meaning is actually being put under the surface of a liquid, so being completely under water is not that far off. This primary meaning might also just naturally lead to "immersion into a language" being understood as being completely surrounded by the language without any exception, which would mean be physically present in the culture (even Cornelson&Oxford make this assumption in their examples). I also suggest to use terms that are more self-explanatory, like specific terms that carry the essential information: For language learning it is not how you surround yourself with the language but that you somehow understand what is said/written. And I really do think that if you tell someone to strive for "(barely) comprehensible input", it helps them better to adjust their learning without you having to explain too much about all these kinds of "immersion". I do also suggest not to ignore well-established terms just so you can coin your own phrases. I think this is impolite, at least explain why you think those terms don't work either. In the end, I couldn't care less what terms anyone is using. It is just a suggestion. If you think it is dump, just ignore it. Though I would be interested why you think my train of thought crashes ;-). But maybe even my ideas are strange, someone starts thinking about them and comes to new conclusions.
How do you feel about the term "Media Immersion"? Or something along these lines. This topic of how to talk about language learning with normies is something I've been thinking a lot about lately, it's so easy to forget when we're in a bubble
It's better than just "immersion", but in Australia at least, the word "media" is often thought of as being broadcast TV and radio, rather than UA-cam... so in Australian English, it could have certain connotations. I mean, as some people have pointed out, if you say "Cognitive language immersion", you're going to have to explain it anyway, and I agree... but that's actually good, because when we just say "immersion", we don't know WHAT the person gets from that. I can picture myself explaining what cognitive language immersion it to people I know... Granted people like you and me (with UA-cam channels about language learning) have become very used to talking about it, but still... this is at least what I'm switching to, Cognitive LI and Lifestyle LI.
@@daysandwords I see. Now that you've said that, I realized that I'd have a similar problem in Portuguese with the "Media Immersion"" to be honest. The expression just sounds unnatural. And sounds like something related to IT. I think "Content Immersion" would be ideal. But nowadays "content" always means "social media content". Cognitive also wouldn't work, because no one would know what cognitive means and it'd just make it sound complicated. What a tricky term. I still need to come up with a solution, but at least I can use your ideas as a starting point now
Immersion I believe is living, eating, sleeping, talking, walking in that language. I tried intensively to study, read, memorise French grammer. After 5 years only can understand snippets of words. My partner doesnt speak French. You need a prior basic knowledge to live in that country if you dont have a french partner.
Hmm, it sounds like you did something wrong. "I tried intensively to study, read, memorise French grammar." Yes, there's your problem. You should have been listening to FRENCH. Not studying French grammar.
@@daysandwords Yes.I know that now. I memorised more in one month than 5 years, was by listening to Paul Noble audios. The best audio where he states dont try and remember what you have heard. He repetitively reviews what was covered later in the audio.
When I first started consulting language advice, I remember being so confused with the term ‘immersion’. This video clarifies what immersion is so well!
Comprehensible input can be a part of cognitive language immersion but it's like protein can be a part of a diet... it doesn't make protein and diet the same thing. Both terms are fine if you then explain what they mean... the thing I'm trying to avoid is this nebulous "immersion" thing being chucked around, especially to normies (the 99%).
Read in the language, write in the language, listen to the language, speak in the language, think in the language. Full, hardcore, total immersion would mean having no opportunity to escape to other languages when it’s time to read, write, listen, or speak 😅 the pressure and frustration forces the language into you but you’d probably pick up bad habits with that alone
There has been an enormous amount of cognitive immersion in English in this century mainly due to the internet, and the results are quite plain to see.
Unless you're a high level speaker, or in an English speaking country learning English, then lifestyle immersion is actually quite problematic. That is my experience living in a major city Vietnam. Luckily I have my wife, who despite having excellent English, always speaks to me in Vietnamese.
Lifestyle LI is I believe, while valuable, significantly overrated by its proponents. You end up hearing a lot of magical thinking going into things like "oh you'll improve so much just by switching your phone/computer language to the target" whereas realistically I'd be shocked if it counted for much of your progress at all. Especially considering most people know their phones/computers pretty well by this stage and could probably autopilot through most wizards and popups without actually reading them.
Good vid. I think a bigger problem is that many people throw around Krashen's name every other sentence along with comprehensible input, then provide no explanation, or worse, a methodology that seems antithetical to their intro on said topics. Ill take practical application, tools, and practices over theory crafting any day.
This may be creepy. But when I visit sweden next year, I'm gonna eves drop on other people's convos ALOT to get a better idea on how spoken conversational swedish sounds lol
Haha I have like a million baseball hats, and actually one of my very nicest ones is a Whitesox hat... the one you mean is really old now, but I have a beautiful "monochrome" one that they were nice enough to give me at a quarter of its actual price just because the sticker from another hat had fallen on it and made it look like it was that price. But yeah I'm not going to wear any WS hats at the moment for the reason you mention... However the Houston hat seems riskier because we'll probably make it to the post season and then lose and I'll get some smarta** about that... Boston hat next video!
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What a cliffhanger this was
My sister lived in Japan for over a year, yet I know more Japanese than her because of cognitive immersion at home. Just living somewhere doesn't mean as much when learning a language. However, she knows more culturally in daily Japanese life as a result.
Exactly.
Very different types of immersion, very different result.
Thank you for adding this comment. I'm trying to learn Japanese, and with no one around to speak it with and no financial method to go there, it's been very discouraging in this regard.
@@retropulse03 learning japanese on your own would have been difficult 30 years ago before internet... but nowadays, actually being in japan may be an obstacle (if your goal is to simply learn japanese - it is much more efficient to do it staying in your room without expending time on travelling or mundane minutia of living in japan)
I did cognitive immersion for two years, moved to Japan, and now a year later with both cognitive and lifestyle immersion I still wouldn't even consider myself really conversational 🙃
You might be more conversational than you realise. Sometimes I feel like I can barely say stuff in Swedish but then I go and look at the recording and it was actually just that I was saying something with heaps of different parts to it. Basically, it's like being able to run faster... it doesn't feel faster because the whole point is that you're making it easier by practicing.
People say "Immersion" when they mean to say "Input". I suspect this is because of AJATT, since Khatzumoto recommended pretty much spending your entire day "immersed" in Japanese to maximise input, this then spread through Matt into Refold, and hence, into you and your community.
@@Alec72HD I have a question about your experience in the academy. In the beginning how did you start to learn L2 words? Was it through associations or were you allowed to translate in order to pick up vocabulary?
@@Alec72HD if this is true that is pretty amazing and impressive and gives me a lot of hope. However to be totally frank, one thing I have to say is that A1-A2 after 7 years of “study” is beyond pathetic. How on earth could someone only reach that level even if they were studying Chinese? (And only know English). Unless someone has some kind of learning disability, I would really have to question how much “studying” they are really doing at all.
The Moe Way
You’re exactly right. That’s where it came from and got spread onto UA-cam.
@@OrientalPearlOh hey. I saw your reply and didn't even read the username until just now.
Teacher of 10 years here, the whole time I was explaining this difference to my students as “creating your own language bubble” VS “molding your bubble with the environment” 😂 has worked so far but love to steal your nice definitions
What do you teach?
Thank you for breaking about the word into seperate terms and helping to explain this a bit more clearly. I've had a friend who had been trying to learn another language and I've been struggling along trying to explain this to them. So thank you again for making both my life and his a little bit easier.
Perhaps the 'immersion = living there' is a holdover from earlier times.
When I was younger, it could be safely assumed in England that if somebody was fluent in a foreign language, then they had lived in the country.
This is because teaching materials were so inadequate, and the idea of listening to audiobooks in a foreign language would have got you blank looks.
Often the only big audio materials you could get were , for example, 8 half-hour cassettes read by actors as part of a 'Teach Yourself X' course.
So the only way to hear lots of native material was to be in the country, or possibly try to pick up a radio station.
Yeah... I mean, to me it's kind of obvious where the misconception came from, but it's also not really important.
I think there is also a "I can't until..." attitude that clouds the issue. So, you say "To learn German, you want to watch shows in German with German subtitles not English ones." and people are like "Oh no I can't, I need the English subtitles."
They don't realise that you don't ACTUALLY die of lack of comprehension.
@@daysandwords Why does immersion work? Why is using existing brain circuits that do English not help as much as immersing in German?
I have been told that :-
Learning/cognitive activity stimulate the proliferation and differentiation of oligodendrocyte precursor cells (OPCs).
These OPCs then developing into mature oligodendrocytes that produce new myelin sheath.
I don't completely understand it...but I do know that myelin speeds up brain signals by a factor of 100.
So if you immerse, your brain is actually going to work much faster on the paths dealing with the new input.
I found that myself. I woke up one day, and Germans weren't speaking too fast, because I could literally hear faster. That's the only way to describe it. I could hear faster.
"I woke up one day, and Germans weren't speaking too fast, because I could literally hear faster. That's the only way to describe it. I could hear faster."
Yeah... hmm, for me, it actually does seem like they're speaking more slowly though.
Funnily enough, it speeds up how fast you hear even in OTHER languages. Like a few months ago, I was watching a video that turned out to be an April fools joke, but I was just super interested in everything she was saying... and I got to the end and realised it was in French. My French comprehension was never that good until I learned Swedish to "full speed comprehension"... Now, my French comprehension seems much better.
I'm an older person who dreamed of going on an immersion course or sending my son to one, but never had the money (and he never actually wanted to), so it's still the 1st place my brain goes to even though I know that's not what people really mean. The best my Spanish ever got was when I was taking a lot of Spanish classes at university, working for a Mexican company, listening to Spanish-language radio & not subscribing to cable (pre-streaming days) and 1/2 the channels that came in decently were mostly Mexican. In my mind at the time, that wasn't immersion because I could still easily default back to English almost any time I felt like it - and my Spanish gets a lot more rapid fire when I go a day or two without being able to code switch at will.
@daysandwords
I'm quite early in my language learning journey, but I have experienced that last part after I started learning Mandarin. As with you my Spanish was never that good but recently I've been not autotranslating but just understanding words. It might have something to do with me stopping my spanish practice so I can only rely on almost muscle memory. Rather than understanding being a process of translation, it is the default. I'd like to know your thoughts
I learnt French in France sitting in front of my PC using a website in English. Although I was living in France, my knowledge of French was zero. Only when I understood how the language worked I was able to take advantage of living in the language target country
how I define it.
** I/O = Input / Output;
immersion: replace the I/O of ones life to the target language.
depth of immersion: the % of different I/O of ones life that got changed into the target language.
So we could immerse just our tippy toes and change one thing or we could dive head first with complete lifestyle immersion, input and output immersion, basically changing the complete language of ones life.
By this definition your brother could mean: At what point of language learning could my output lead to a feedback of deeper input immersion?
Estonian reference at 1:00
And 8:14
I support this distinction. it creates a new dimension that allows for a lot more of the complexity and nuance of real-world experiences. I learned Spanish living as an American in America, and I've met more than a handful of people who've lived here more years than I've been alive who barely speak any English. physical immersion doesn't equal cultural or mental immersion.
the availability of resources in the Internet Age makes this distinction even more important. between audiobooks and youtube for content and ChatGPT for explanations and drills, the barrier to entry has never been lower. we have so many new tools to utilize for immersion, it makes sense that we have new words to explain the subtleties and nuances that go with it
My definition of immersion is simple: coming to understand a language through reading and listening in context, as apposed to learning out of context (aka textbooks, explainations, word lists etc).
Well, that's more "input" than immersion.
To be clear: there'd be absolutely no problem at all, if everyone had the same definition. But they definitely do not.
Immersion can happen far before understanding.
For me, immersion method of learning a language means being taught in the target language from the start. Most language classes will talk ABOUT the language in the native language and then practice the language. But immersion requires all of it to be in the target language. For Spanish, I learned a lot ABOUT Spanish but I really didn't start internalizing anything until Spanish 3 when the entire class was in Spanish with a no English rule. But for my ASL classes, everything was ASL only no English from day 1 and I was able to start communicating in ASL pretty quickly without overly relying on scripts.
If I am immersed in water and I do nothing, I will choke and drown, which, certainly, I would rather not. But if I move my arms and legs in proper way, I will float to the surface, hopefully. It is not so important that I am just immersed in water. What really matters is what I do while being immersed.
Speaking of "language immersion", the two points to consider, it seems to me, are:
1. Immersing myself into the language, WHERE am I immersing myself into?
2. WHAT should I do to start finally understand and speak new language?
So that, if I mistakenly believe that "water" means "ice" and that "swimming" means "skating", I'm bound to drown. As always, the question of success or failure is a question of doing right things.
I am really glad that you were able to articulate these ideas. I believe we can better assess ourselves by placing our learning hours into these 2 groups. Cognitive LI and Lifestyle LI. For example, I have been learning Ukrainian for the past 2 years. The reason being is that I moved to a new area and the Church I attend is 85% Ukrainian people. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday I have a private lessons with a tutor currently residing in Ukraine. Then on Sunday I spend the entire day with my Ukrainian friends who speak only Ukrainian and I am around Ukrainian culture events. So one could say I am experiencing 75% CLI and 25% LLI . I also believe LLI has to be experienced in person. Wearing an Apple Vision pro and taking a virtual tour around Kyiv (or your target languages capital) would not elicit the same neurological responses as would be if you were physically present around people and culturally significant ideas.
I think i prefer the term "comprehensible input", because people who recommend "immersion" seem to conveniently forget about the "comprehensible" part all the time. Which is what i thought your brother was asking - how much do you need to understand in order to (efficiently) learn new things from context?
Or, if "comprehensible input" seems too technical, just go with the age old "if you want to become good at X, you need to do a lot of X".
The problem with the term "comprehensible input" is when you say that a normie (any of the 99%), they'll very much NOT comprehend.
People who throw around the term comprehensible input forget that they should try to use comprehensible terms to speak with.
When you say "Cognitive language immersion", they'll then ask what that means.
you've heard about comprehensible input, but have you heard about iconphrenslbie iupnt
@@reizinhodojogo3956dan rghti Irh hbe.
The confusion is understandable. It's all about changes in technology over the decades. There are so many opportunities for cognitive language immersion at home now. That wasn't always the case. When the term immersion was first used, being in country really was your best bet for improving your speech and listening skills. Another good (but expensive) option would be a full-time immersion school. Just a few decades ago, your at-home listening options options included expensive recordings, and maybe if you were close enough, a radio or TV station broadcasting from across the border. (That would be quite a trick in Australia btw.) So this is a case where we need our definitions to catch up with our technology.
Great video and very spot on.. I'm Swedish, but lived in Australia for a couple of years.. I've done these different things, learned English in school, then got good engouh to watch TV without subtitles, reading books in English etc. Once you get to that point, and deliberately choose to keep exposing yourself to the language, you get better at it.. By the time I moved to Australia my english was good enough people accepted me as basically English speaking with an odd accent. This is where most people would be considered fluent and happy with their second language, so cognitive immersion is really the big thing I think..
For lifestyle immersion, I lived in Australia for four years, and only spoke Swedish to my parents back home, otherwise I used English everywhere, home, at work, etc. Today, even after many years in Sweden, you can still hear the effect Australian immersion had on me, it polished off a lot of rough edges and gave me an accent that is still there... So if you truly want to sound like a native, this is where lifestyle immersion is a must I think..
I met a guy like you working at H&M in Stockholm. He was Swedish but had lived in Australia for 19 years (from the age of 19 to 38 or so), and he had the thickest Australian accent in Swedish that I'd ever heard haha.
It was the weirdest conversation... because here I am sounding mostly Swedish, and he's there sounding Australian... speaking Swedish... in Sweden... two almost Australian people.
I took your advice for watching a show 50 time and around 20 time of a show’s dub, I feel like I e made actual progress with Spanish. Just wanted to say you’ve made legitimate breakthroughs that have yet to be fully scientifically studied, but I think there are merit to some of your methodologies 🔥👌
What show might I ask?
I’ve been coincidentally watching my target lang dub of the office us. at 76h of runtime all seasons - the office seems like a good one to watch at least 5 times over before moving on.
I’ve also JUST watched it all the way through in english, but i’m interested to see what others are watching
I always appreciate your perspectives. I agree that many people do see immersion that way.
3:24 the way I see it being used still feels very related to how it’s used normally. Typically when people say immersion it really is “this language is all there is around you, you see it all the time” and when I see people talking about independent study via immersion it’s “switch devices to another language and get 60-100% of the context you consume to be in another language”
I remember the usage shifting with people saying ‘you can recreate immersion at home with media’ until eventually people just said immersion for input. I think just talking about getting input or even just reading and listening works fine for communicating with anyone outside of the ‘immersion learning community’.
I honestly don't think the term "input" is helpful for people outside of the LL community.
@@daysandwords I agree, because input has a few other definitions.
Great video. "That's not good because that's not true." Moreover, to an American ear, it is even more true when you say it with an Aussie accent. Thanks for making this one.
What people also get wrong is that they will just magically understand words and grammar if they just hear them enough times.
No, you actually need to learn them too. You need to translate the words you don't know into English, then learn them. You need to understand why the same word may be written differently. You need to understand why there's "random" がs, はs, etc all over the place.
I've tried to just learn words and grammar through immersion as a beginner, and I've never never gotten any closer to understanding anything, especially tenses and how verbs interact with the person they're with. Wasted a load of time.
Maybe it's just me, but the academic side which everyone hates on is completely necessary if I want to be able to form my own sentences. Pure immersion with no grammar study whatsoever would be fine if I just wanted to be able to watch anime without subtitles, but I want more than that, I want to be able to use the words and rules I know to make my own sentences and be able to speak and write.
I couldn't even understand how to write in the present tense before learning the necessary grammar before it. Japanese is very different from English and especially French. I feel confident I could learn something like Italian or Portuguese just from immersion with no study because their grammar is very similar to French so all I'd need to remember for that is the new suffixes, but Japanese is _way_ too different for that.
It's going to be very different between Japanese and say, Dutch, or Swedish...
But it also sounds like it is just you, to an extent.
Because there are lots of people who didn't "learn" the way you said and speak fluent Japanese or Mandarin, with very few mistakes.
DUDE I've only just started watching and can I just quickly say your production and editing are super cool??
Thanks. I had an editor help me out with this one.
A simplistic way I like to describe it is that the brain hates not understanding communication. When we take away the option to use a language we are fluent in and force ourselves to interpret another language, the brain will start to slowly piece together the new language over time. It's the same way we learn language as kids, we use context clues combined with learned knowledge of the world to create a language model. As adults it's actually even easier as we have way more knowledge of the world to give us additional context for learning new things.
People who are in another country, but only use their most fluent language 99% of the time aren't going to learn much besides some basic phrases since they aren't forcing their brain to adapt in any way.
That's why watching something like anime with English subtitles doesn't allow anime fans to be magically fluent in Japanese. On the otherhand, there also has to be some active studying to make meaningful progress. Studying vocabulary and grammar, while also getting input work together to create a cycle of learning and reinforcement.
That's usually where traditional classroom language classes fail. The students often do learn some of the language, but with no reinforcement of that knowledge outside of the classroom, they'll just forget everything in a few months. Even people who travel or even live in other countries, often I'll hear, "My French improved so much when I went to France, bit I can't really speak it anymore." Languages have to be actively used to stick around in our heads.
Very good.
Another point: If you go to a country with someone else or your family, the level of immersion is determined by the least committed person; perhaps practically none.
Do you want to leave the house on time? You'll talk in English to make sure that happens.
As an English-speaking (and teaching) German living in the gringo-capital of Ecuador, I could not agree more. I met plenty of people who live here and speak no Spanish at all and still, around the world you find some people with great English who haven't lived at all or for very long in an English-speaking country. And if you don't really want to learn or don't have the right mindset, not even the combination of the two will help you learn... Awesome video!
thanks for coming up with new lingo for language learners.
Haha. "More words for us to learn!"
Can we just say immersion is very large amounts of input received consistently?
OK go and say that to a normie and see if they get what you're saying.
We could… and then we’d still be left to do all the clarification between the two ideas of immersion that were discussed in the video…
@daysandwords "Normie", As in a normal person? Most normal people you can just tell them "It's slang, normally referring to watching content in a language that you're learning, weather it be watching TV, or reading something, it's better to use the word "Input" for this as Steven Krashen used the word input for language learning"
Makes sense to me. I guess I'm not a normie
This definitely needs to be the new standard. I use things like turning all my electronics and games to my L2 as well as speaking in discord with random strangers from, in my case, Brazil. I did go to Brazil for a couple weeks with no one but myself and it was a great experience to realize how people speak in person vs online and cultural differences and how it influences slang. It made me realize I took it way to seriously and it started to be fun again. Thanks for the video.
DUDE - Thank you!
I hear "Immersion" and it absolutely, completely, sounds like you're expected to go and exist someplace where the target language is essentially your only option to speak/listen/learn. I live in SLC, and I haven't the slightest clue where I am going to find ANYONE who speaks Japanese. I sure AF can't afford to travel to Japan either. It's been SO discouraging to hear "immersion, immersion, immersion" and just feel like it's so out of reach.
a lot of artistic intelligence behind the filming and editing. It's rare to see such quality content, please keep up the good work :)
I"d say learning a language is not a passive effort. It takes an intentional effort to set things up and learn by giving life to the language and cognitively realizing when you've made a mistake and why. Paying attention to why people do or say certain things and making it a part of your day. You don't have to go to a country physically its just immersing yourself in the experience of this language through many means. Just going to a country doesn't give you incite, the experience if long enough and integrated enough sure you'll be forced to learn depending where you are, but its not ultimately necessary.
Talking about “immersion schools” or “immersion classes” is pretty common and just means the language of instruction is in the target language. So a German immersion class would be 99 percent in German after day one. A Chinese immersion school would be 99 percent in Mandarin in math, science, Chinese, PE, music and art. I guess you would have English in English class.
It's important to emphasise that doing more hours in the language is not the GOAL of immersion, it's the MEANS. The GOAL of immersion is that more of your learning is passive because active study is arduous whereas passive learning is not. This is why it's so difficult to get a child to "study"; they've learnt everything in their lives so far passively and they don't understand why they would need to work in order to attain the same result. But in adults that is reversed: they ONLY think they can learn through study.
I love your distinction as I also realized that many people don’t grasp the difference and there is a big one. I would prefer saying “physical immersion” instead of “lifestyle immersion” as lifestyle as a concept could include cognitive immersion like social media.
Yeah, I did actually mention the overlap... But UA-cam videos and stuff would be cognitive immersion because you don't need to have any kind of lifestyle that reflects that, e.g. I still watched baseball while I was in Sweden.
But "physical immersion" really only sounds like water to me. You can be lifestyle immersed without being physically immersed, like my example of Swedish gatherings in Sydney.
@@daysandwords I see! At the end it’s just words that try to explain concepts. I usually don’t really care a lot about words, and I notice that conceptually we mean the same thing anyways! Thanks for your effort you put into your videos, they’re very informative to watch and pleases my inner language nerd 🙏
I understand what you're saying but words are the best we have to explain concepts... Words are not actually that great at explaining concepts, but they can be better if they're at least well defined and agreed upon.
That's the problem with the term "immersion". It means a different thing to everyone.
@@daysandwords I agree, in the end we are forced to use words to be able to describe what concept we think of so there’s no other way than to agree upon definitions at the end of the day. Either way I agree with your observation and hopefully more people will catch up to it! 😁
PS thanks for the Storytel recommendation. that's a game-change right there. I didn't mind terribly spending an audible credit on a Spanish book since I can at least understand them, but I would've felt the pain of spending credits on German kids books just to play as background noise.
now I have the Wheel of Time series in Spanish (36 hours per book times fourteen books makes 21 straight days worth of content. lol!) and I have so many series in German bookmarked for when I can finally understand them.
wh40K and the Artemis Fowl series, you will be mine, oh yes!
Funnily enough, my brother made a similar comment to me this week. When I mentioned I wanted to spend some time to immerse in French when I had more free time, he immediately assumed I wanted to move to France. It honestly hadn’t occurred to me that this was the assumption people would make.
Yep, see! Exactly!
Some people in this comments section have said "Oh we should really say input" and I'm like "Yeah that's way clearer to people who only half care about this stuff..."
I like the script-great to think abou. The music throughout is a great touch, the recording/mixing/mastering is very clean, and I thought the thumbnail was quite cool 😂
Tjena Lamont, I'm curious about what you've learned during your trip to Sweden, I'll be looking forward to that video you teased.
Ja, berätta!
I have a friend I knew when we were both starting college, she was utterly convinced she needed to move to Italy, or at least visit Italy, to learn Italian well, and furthermore she had (still has) this idea that it was the only way to learn it well. 10 years later she still hasn't gone to Italy, and she never learned Italian beyond buongiorno, buonanotte, buonasera because she could never commit to the discipline it requires to learn a language (because she was utterly convinced she would learn when she was there). I always thought it was a very dumb view.
I used most lingq and youtube and am an ok beginner
Great video! I've had this question for a while.
Immersion is a funny thing 😅 Generally speaking, immersion is being immersed or surrounded by a language. The problem is that this is not always enough, it certainly helps, though, since being surrounded by a language is motivating. It works for some people but doesn't work for others. I learnt Italian to C2 just by living in Italy, although, now that I really think about it, I kept a diary, studied verb tenses, read newspapers, made a group of friends and chatted right from the start and most importantly, sat in bars drinking coffee and just listening. A friend of mine, on the other hand, came to live here in Italy for a year and didn't pick up anything, simply because he didn't make that conscious effort. I know people who have lived here for 5 years and still don't know more than the basics. The number one key ingredient is motivation, no matter where you're living! 😉
Been there, done that. Went to UK to study in high school there, yet my English didn't improve as much as it did for my peers (it was an international school). In fact I found that I learned more from movies, tv series and youtube. That was because I very rarely spoke with natives, and also because I thought that "I will learn English very fast when I'll get there" so I had never really studied it before going to UK.
So that was a waste of money...
Now, not having been to an English-speaking country for several years, I have a better level of English thanks to just consuming everything English for these several years. I kinda regret not learning English better before the trip or simply not postponing it for some years just to level it up and only then go to UK.
Anyway, it was a useful experience for me as it was my first second language. Now I'm learning Spanish, and a thought of moving to a Spanish-speaking country has never even crossed my mind (thank god). I actually don't even wanna travel there, I just like learning new languages now :)
I really love your channel!
Thanks ❤
My cheap immersion. Going a mile and a half to the barrio and volunteering all day working with Spanish speakers. Puts me on the spot dredging up vocabulary from memory. Not perfect but it beats once a month meetups with other learners of various levels.
I agree with this, I lived in Mexico and Peru and had not studied any Spanish before that. I studied some while there and was able to hold basic conversations, but I'm still alot better at other languages like Russian which is a country I have never even visited.
There are a lot of people who speak very good English despite never living in an English-speaking country. You definitely don't need to be in the country to reach a proficient level.
You don't need to, to reach a proficient level... However, there is some stuff that is just much BETTER learned in the country. There are tonnes of words that will just never come up in material from that country, but will come up all the time IN that country.
@@daysandwordsSometimes you can get some of that vocabulary from your language partner. I talk about day to day things with one of my language partners and have learned a lot of practical vocabulary that I never hear in podcasts, TV series or read in books. For example, we talk about home maintenance which includes many words that every native speaker knows but you won’t normally hear. Of course, just going to a supermarket in the country will expose you to a lot of vocabulary that you won’t get from cognitive LI.
Comprehensible immersion and incomprehensible immersion.
Living in the target country can deliver incomprehensible input, which won't lead to acquisition.
But living under a rock listening to beginner podcasts can deliver comprehensible input, which leads to acquisition.
My first language is German and I live in Germany - last year I spent 7 months in Stockholm and actually really wanted to learn the language but because almost none of my friends there spoke Swedish, my level stayed quite low.
On the other hand, I was constantly immersed in English and became really confident speaking the language that I before mostly consumed or reproduced in writing, which obviously is a very different dynamic.
For me, I always thought that immersion was about getting surrounded by the language, listening and reading. Basically, getting used to the language, not carrying if you are living in another country or not
Exactly. But there are other comments on this video from people who had been thinking that you absolutely do need to be in the country for it to be called immersion. Both people are saying immersion, but they mean completely different things.
"Being submerged in a liquid", not that hard to carry over the meaning/ implications for other activities.
8:11
I've been leaving in Italy for 3 years and my level is about a2.
But in these 3 years I was watching English yt, reading documentation, sitting on different subreddits, and now I can listen and watch everything, even things like Monty Python or Rick and Morty. I can speak and write about anything I wanted so for without translator (and I'm aware of my grammar problems). Not the fastest progression for ~4000h or yt, but it was just a tool
I lived in finland for 8 years and still haven't managed to get even coversational 😅
Bro you can conversational in like 1 month
@lucascavuzzo i agree if you are smart enough, but i sadly am not...
You are really smart. I am very impressed with your level of intellect. Keep up the good work.
Haha thanks I guess.
You don't necessarily need to be in a country speaking your target language in order to truly learn how to speak and understand it. Once school taught me enough English that I could make progress on my own, I went online and started texting with native English speakers, started watching youtube videos and shows in English and talked to people via a mic online.
Nowadays, when I meet new people, they think I'm a native speaker in English because I don't have a German accent (validated by some native speakers I met in bars before as well), all while I've never, ever put a foot into an English speaking country. As long as you're actually willing to put in the effort and choose the right materials, you can become perfectly fluent and accent-free just using the internet and other forms of entertainment, imo.
Though I would still recommend an actual teacher. We are forced to take English classes here in Germany form grade 3 until we graduate, so that also helps a ton. But I know people who've had the exact same amount of English classes I had and they aren't nearly as fluent as I am, so my method (immersing myself in English content) must have worked.
Some kind feedback for the creator: It took me a while-well past the video’s introduction-to understand what the 'problem' was, and even now, I’m not entirely convinced. The example of the 'bicycle community' agreeing on what a 'wheel' is makes sense, but isn’t that precisely the point? The language learning community largely agrees on what 'immersion' means, so there doesn’t seem to be much concern about making it less 'vague.' It’s true that some people think moving to another country will help them learn the local language, but it feels like an overstatement to suggest most believe they’ll learn it without proper exposure. You can move abroad and never leave your house. You can buy a bike and never cycle. The point is that people would usually agree that language learning requires practice (or use, exposure...), and that it is mostly a mental activity. Physically being somewhere is not enough. I have never heard of someone saying otherwise.
"The language learning community largely agrees on what 'immersion' means, so ..."
No, I don't think we do "largely agree". I probably could make it clearer what the problem is, but I am saying that if you get 10 different people together who are different kinds of language learners (some enthusiast, some just travelling, some interested in learning one day etc etc.), then you'll get at least 3 definitions of what "immersion" is.
Your comment only serves to cement the idea that the LL community does NOT agree on what it means.
I totally agree. Just like the term fluent, the term immersion is used differently in the polyglot community and I’ve sort of tried to push back, but it’s hopeless.
Not hopeless! This video will go viral you watch. 😂
I always step around this issue when I talk to people on reddit or irl by saying "consume content". Language normies definitely interpret immersion as living in another country, and simply saying "I got pretty good at [language] by consuming hundreds of hours of content" makes them understand way easier.
I like the distinction. I recently had several people ask me things like "how can you get immersion" regarding a language and it was clear that they didn't understand the way I did
For me I expose myself to a lot of that daily language, like with Korean.
Once I’ve gotten good enough and trained myself to be able to read many words and understand sentences with grammar points.
I switch my media to that languages media slowly, I start watching cartoons only in that language.
Even when I write, I write in that language, expect when I’m at school.
Man it has been a minute since a new stream. Yay!!!!
soooooooooo I dont think this comment will get attention at all but its worth the shot
I'm brazillian who became almost (keyword ALMOST) english fluent as a little child, and all I did was listening to songs (gacha life story videos) and reading english stories (more gacha life story videos) even though i couldnt understand anything. Now im trying to learn japanese bc i really enjoy vocaloid, J-pop, J-rock and anything similar. sorry it doesnt have anything to do with the culture im a music enthusiast lol (but i had a wizard english course as backup plan so thats how i learned how to form sentences n things)
the thing is people constantly talk about consuming content, but i've been listening to songs in japanese for around 4 years now, (and searching for the meanings and translation bc thats just really cool) and thats basically the method I used with english, and the only thing i learned are some basic words like anata, yume, atashi etc; ik japanese is a MUCH more complicated language than english and lots more of investment in the learning but idk man 😭 am i in the right path?
I've definitely not an expert, but I would say there's no way you'll learn Japanese from just songs or even just reading stories. I would say there's also a fair chance that as a child you had other exposure to English than what you remember, to get you where you got there. But look at it this way, your exposure to Japanese has likely got you comfortable with the accent and feel of the language, so if you pick up textbook or class learning now you've got a head start. I'm learning Japanese as one of my languages and I'm loving it!
I lived in the country where the language was spoken, and it was not beneficial to my language learning. It was in Prague. Employed in an international company to speak my native language, otherwise communication was happening in English. People of my generation, living in a European capital, all speak English already and natives don't want to hear their language spoken badly, so everything happened in English privately as well. Despite that, there was always some other expat around, who was not learning Czech, so most of the time English was the only language all participants had in common. If I wanted to speak Czech, I had to seek out somebody privately and hope they would endure my stammer for an hour or so.
The lifestyle immersion might have worked in 1950 Paris, but it is difficult to pursue in a borderless, multicultural Europe. Every bit of Czech I have learnt, I have acquired through private study and cognitive immersion.
Do they still look down on foreigners there? I found the city beautiful but people seemed resented, maybe at earning 10000 month while we expats were getting three times that.
@@julianbennett4919 No, the people are earning normal salaries. It is not a poverty-stricken region, even though of course the wages are lower than they are in the west. I wouldn't say that they look down on foreigners, but they often seemed confused that somebody would choose their country as an expert, and attempts to learn the language were certainly more besmirched than encouraged. If you try to speak Czech with natives, you cannot make mistakes. They will correct everything or switch to English.
Unlike speakers of bigger languages, the Czechs are not used to hear their language spoken by intermediate learners. So speaking or not speaking Czech is seen as something completely binary.
I mean expat not expert. I always felt that autocorrect makes texting more difficult.
another environment that could perhaps qualify as “lifestyle language immersion” would be living in a household where the primary language differs from the dominant language in their country. wish i could say i was fluent in hindi after over two decades of constantly hearing hindi in my house, but i am in the unfortunate throes of receptive bilingualism.
compare that to mandarin, where i’ve been taking a cognitive language immersion approach, and after a year, i’m MUCH more likely to be able to express myself in mandarin than i am able to express myself in hindi. or even just understand a random podcast episode, read a book, or watch a tv show.
the LLI-ish environment i describe is pretty specific, though. the majority of your communication is likely still in the dominant language of your country. the type of language you’re exposed to is typically restricted to daily life. and there’s a lot of specific emotions that come with the resulting receptive bilingualism that can have a cognitive impact on motivation if you ever decide to actively learn the language. even if you do try to learn the speaking aspect, you’re not met with surprise that you can speak the language at all, but rather surprise that you can’t speak the language well. you can’t be the “white guy who shocks natives with fluent hindi”.
i can imagine there’s some extra element needed to make LLI work, and that simply being in the environment is not enough on its own. i certainly wouldn’t know because i’m not moving anywhere soon so i can’t speak to its efficacy, but i dislike the concept that moving somewhere is the only way to acquire a language, especially when i’ve seen evidence to the contrary.
There's also the fact that these different language learning terms are not binaries, either ones or zeros. There is high quality comprehensible input and low quality just as there is high and low quality forms of immersion. Of course when you get into comprehensible input it has a very basic requirement that it refers to a piece of language that is understandable. You can have things designed to be GOOD for comprehensible input, but for a particular person because of their particular skill or experience, the same video could be more or less comprehensible.
So the aim is to make what you consume as comprehensible as possible in any given situation which is kinda like going on a long car trip and to keep having to switch radio stations to stay tuned in to the one you want. That is also the reason Krashen keeps focusing on compelling input, because the interest in a particular topic or story is a force multiplier for learning and attention span.
That's also where his research on being comfortable and being able to learn language comes in. If people felt anxiety or panic about learning a language, that part of their brain seems like it basically just shuts off. Now imagine that you're in a new country trying to immerse yourself or being forced to immerse yourself and you need medical care or feel lonely or whatever. Some people thrive on being put on the spot like that, but it can wreck your ability to pay attention to the language.
That's an old school term that used to mean the opposite of learning a language from a textbook while using your L1. We have Duolingo now, so neither are necessary. ;-)
Just to be a contrarian to others saying "input" is the correct word, I'd like to point out that "immersion" as a concept has always been about picking up language through input.
As others have come round to dispute that it solely means "being in another country" I'd like to ask then how there are plenty of people who live in their target languages country and yet don't pick up a lick of the language. That's because those people aren't IMMERSING in the language. It encompasses having to pick up things through listening, hearing and understanding as much as you can by surrounding yourself by the language.
I just think that they explain the same action/ concept except immersion has a broader reach. Confusing stuff either way.
"Just to be a contrarian to others saying "input" is the correct word, I'd like to point out that "immersion" as a concept has always been about picking up language through input."
Yeah I'm with you that we shouldn't say "input" either, as that doesn't make things clearer.
As for your second paragraph, I addressed that very thing.
I used to think moving to an English-speaking country was the best way to learn the language, but not anymore in this day and age. I'm still learning, but I don't have any plans to go abroad anytime soon.
My names amant , nice to meet someone with allmost the same name
I'm fully immersed several times a day for five minutes at a time when I do my duolingo ! 👍
I often forget how little I knew about language learning before I started learning a language.
I think that your brother's idea of "immersion"--i.e., deepening language competence because of the many emergent life-situations one must negotiate when one lives among people who speak the language-is the OLDER sense of the term.
I think the sense one sees now in the "language learning community" (i.e., immersion = cognitive LI) is a RELATIVELY NEW EXTENSION of this idea: namely, that one can create _something like that older sense of immersion_ by some combination of watching series, talking online, reading, etc. I would call this "simulated" LI. It's kind of like: YES, you CAN have a salt-water aquarium in your living room in Arizona. (With a little bit of: NO, there's nothing weird about me that I spend all my spare time doing stuff in this other language. It's my at-home immersion program!) That is, it is a derivative, extended, analogical use--and the older use is the root, not a misconception at all. Remembering the older meaning of "lifestyle LI" gives one a standard by which to judge "cognitive LI"-or at least, "simulated LI." Similar hours, similar range of engagement, similar challenges, similar feedback?
I would say that intensive study BEFORE one reaches the level of gaining (much) progress from speed-of-life interaction with native speakers and native content is just that: intensive study. Extending the "immersion" idea downward from "simulated lifestyle LI" to include the work needed to START to benefit from "simulated lifestyle LI" is, well, a further extension. Using the words in this way, I would say that your brother could do enough intensive study to be able to benefit from real OR simulated lifestyle LI. (But: grey area warning!: the simulated life-style LI can be adjusted to be slower, or easier, or less high stakes; so one can get to the point of benefiting from the simulated before one can benefit from in-person lifestyle LI.)
That said: I totally agree that thinking one will just "pick up" the language is delusional (and is a wide-spread delusion-especially among people who have learned about 20 basic expressions and think they are half-way to fluency).
And, as an introvert who has now experienced covid while traveling, I can affirm that just being in the country, even if one has a rather high level of understanding of the language, doesn't necessarily entail very many interaction-seconds per day! (Unless one has to go looking for medical help-which I didn't.)
Yeah his idea of it is definitely the older sense of it...
But, that's not my point in this video. I don't care who had the word "first"... The normies are (understandably) using the OLDER sense of it. My point is that enthusiasts like myself should stop just saying "immersion" to mean something that most people don't understand it to mean.
Hey Lamont. Love your videos. Do you still recommend Speakly as part of our language learning toolbox or would storylearning be a better option? Or both?? Cheers!
Depends on the language. I haven't tested Speakly for a while but I really liked its approach, and they have Finnish and Estonian, which StoryLearning does not.
StoryLearning is probably more interesting overall, and they cost about the same.
@@daysandwords thanks. I’ve grabbed a spanishpod101 sub and some anki cards. Gonna wait and see if storylearning does a black friday deal.
They will do one.
The links may change before then though, so if you look at my videos that are coming out around then, you'll have the updated links (if they need updating).
I usually just say something along the lines of "inputting" or "getting a lot of input" when I discuss language learning with normies. It's a much more easily understood term than immersion in my experience.
In my experience, even "input" isn't clear. So I just say "watch a lot of tv, read a lot, and listen to podcasts". This they understand, and if they want more detail than that, they'll ask.
Whatever happened to listening and reading? Why do people think they're cool being more vague - and I'm not pointing at you - it's the entire trend on the internet. There's literally no mode beyond listening and reading, it is not sign language. Inputting is an elitist term, it makes it sound more esoteric and profound. If we want to help people this is the opposite of what we'd want to say. Because it distances them from making the conclusion they need to make: you learn & RETAIN a language by actually using the damned thing. Not nonsense workbook exercise, not nonsense flashcards, etc. until the end of the time, but actual real language. We have so many, for example, ethnic Chinese that speak like a 3rd grader who come on the internet and ask what they need to do (like there is a magic formula). They need to do what they did since 3rd grade for their English: talk a ton with their family, watch a bunch of shows or listen to radio.
Seriously, the people you generally speak with, don't know the perfectly ordinary word 'immersion'? Where on earth do you live, or what kind of company do you keep?
@@kingbolo4579unnecessarily hostile and elitist
@@kingbolo4579 In Ireland, when people say ‘immersion’, they assume you are talking about your hot water heater.
Lamont, do you have an Immerstion(CLI) step-by-step plan?
Do you mean for myself, or like, to send to other people?
Regarding the bike analogy, people that are not into bikes confuse tubes and tires all the time.
Yeah... exactly.
I was going to use something that I actually know about, but it turned out to be really complicated because the things I know about all have really complex terminology, e.g. photography stuff. People often mistake f stop for focal length, as well as focus POINT... And they think "zoom" means really long lenses, but it just means lenses that change focal length.
Should I learn the standard variant of a language first before learning my target dialect? Ex) My s/o speaks Austrian German (Wein), but is it recommended I skip this localization until after I have a grasp on standard German?
Hmm, it depends.
That's a bit of a tricky situation... but I'd probably go for the standard dialect first because there's just heaps more content in it, so you're likely to start sounding that way anyway... and then you can more consciously "learn" the dialect once you understand 99% of German.
Thanks for pointing out the difference between "casual language learners" (the 99%) and the ones who make it work. I usually don't believe in anything being black-or-white but language learning is one of the few things I think it applies to. Might sound reductive and maybe a little harsh but in my experience with language learning you're either in or you're out. To learn a language well you have to put everything you have into it. You have to be obsessed with it or it won't work (well), or take a long, long time and will come with massive gaps in your knowledge.
I think you can be just "quite interested" in your learning, but you need to do that for heaps longer. I have never ever done that for anything, except maaaaybe music (and even then, try telling my uni buddies that I was only "quite interested" in music).
I'm always all in for like 1 to 4 years, 4 years if I'm lucky.
But my friend Klaudia from Poland was just interested in Swedish consistently for like 17 years and speaks freakin' incredible Swedish.
Immersion for me has always meant the "cognitive immersion" side. This will help me better explain what I mean when I talk to a random person.
This is a good video. I often go to the park on my lunch break and sometimes there is a man sitting on my favourite bench, under a tree smoking a cigerette. Have you ever eaten cheese on rice before?
Strange for an AI to misspell "cigarette".
I appreciate your concern for my poor spelling, it's something I am aware of and keeps me worrying when people tell us the machines are gonna take our jobs.
Did you consider the cheese on rice question?
"lay off the Saki" is such a bro thing to say 😅😂
Haha we are not very "bro-ish" in that way.
Awesome video, it has been kinda bothering me everytime I hear people recommend "immersion" without explaining what it is because almost makes me think it's hurting more than it is helping.
About the Spanish in your video:
If you're referring to your viewers I think los quiero sounds better, or te quiero. Using usted is a bit unnatural in this context and sounds more like "I want it😠" (L1).
Nah it's lo quiero because it's referring to Into the Spider-verse.
Instructions clear: Currently in Sweden talking to someone in Japan
I see, the distinction is rather useful. I will remember this when I tell people I immerse myself, although I never really immerse. I'll say learning, for example. I simply listen, watch, read etc. along with study. It's not possible to travel for me.
When I hear "immersion" my mind starts showing me pictures of being engulfed with water and the imminent danger of drowning. And drowning basically was, I think, what your brother was experiencing. Isn't the important thing what some people also call "comprehensible input", and loads of it? And as soon as colloquial language starts to be comprehensible to you, you might benefit from going to the country where the language is spoken. I would even venture a guess that input that is barely comprehensible, i.e. where you might have to concentrate from time to time, is what would make you to progress the fastest.
So... hang on, what are you actually suggesting? That because you think of water and drowning, everyone else needs to stop saying immersion?
@@daysandwords Actually I'm suggestion that I might not be the only one who has that association. I mean "immersion" in this context is more like a figure of speech, the primary meaning is actually being put under the surface of a liquid, so being completely under water is not that far off.
This primary meaning might also just naturally lead to "immersion into a language" being understood as being completely surrounded by the language without any exception, which would mean be physically present in the culture (even Cornelson&Oxford make this assumption in their examples).
I also suggest to use terms that are more self-explanatory, like specific terms that carry the essential information: For language learning it is not how you surround yourself with the language but that you somehow understand what is said/written. And I really do think that if you tell someone to strive for "(barely) comprehensible input", it helps them better to adjust their learning without you having to explain too much about all these kinds of "immersion".
I do also suggest not to ignore well-established terms just so you can coin your own phrases. I think this is impolite, at least explain why you think those terms don't work either.
In the end, I couldn't care less what terms anyone is using. It is just a suggestion. If you think it is dump, just ignore it. Though I would be interested why you think my train of thought crashes ;-). But maybe even my ideas are strange, someone starts thinking about them and comes to new conclusions.
Ahhh right ok.
Okay based on the thumbnail I'm already feeling attacked....
This video be another timely reminder for me though 😅
11:29 what I’m hearing is excuses. Let’s go move to a new country and learn the language.
How do you feel about the term "Media Immersion"? Or something along these lines.
This topic of how to talk about language learning with normies is something I've been thinking a lot about lately, it's so easy to forget when we're in a bubble
It's better than just "immersion", but in Australia at least, the word "media" is often thought of as being broadcast TV and radio, rather than UA-cam... so in Australian English, it could have certain connotations.
I mean, as some people have pointed out, if you say "Cognitive language immersion", you're going to have to explain it anyway, and I agree... but that's actually good, because when we just say "immersion", we don't know WHAT the person gets from that.
I can picture myself explaining what cognitive language immersion it to people I know... Granted people like you and me (with UA-cam channels about language learning) have become very used to talking about it, but still... this is at least what I'm switching to, Cognitive LI and Lifestyle LI.
@@daysandwords I see. Now that you've said that, I realized that I'd have a similar problem in Portuguese with the "Media Immersion"" to be honest. The expression just sounds unnatural. And sounds like something related to IT.
I think "Content Immersion" would be ideal. But nowadays "content" always means "social media content".
Cognitive also wouldn't work, because no one would know what cognitive means and it'd just make it sound complicated.
What a tricky term. I still need to come up with a solution, but at least I can use your ideas as a starting point now
Immersion I believe is living, eating, sleeping, talking, walking in that language. I tried intensively to study, read, memorise French grammer. After 5 years only can understand snippets of words. My partner doesnt speak French. You need a prior basic knowledge to live in that country if you dont have a french partner.
Hmm, it sounds like you did something wrong.
"I tried intensively to study, read, memorise French grammar."
Yes, there's your problem. You should have been listening to FRENCH. Not studying French grammar.
@@daysandwords Yes.I know that now. I memorised more in one month than 5 years, was by listening to Paul Noble audios. The best audio where he states dont try and remember what you have heard. He repetitively reviews what was covered later in the audio.
But then after that, I'd say ditch all the "learn French" stuff and just listen to ACTUAL French.
When I first started consulting language advice, I remember being so confused with the term ‘immersion’. This video clarifies what immersion is so well!
This video is so underrated
Instead of cognitive immersion, I say comprehensible input
Comprehensible input can be a part of cognitive language immersion but it's like protein can be a part of a diet... it doesn't make protein and diet the same thing.
Both terms are fine if you then explain what they mean... the thing I'm trying to avoid is this nebulous "immersion" thing being chucked around, especially to normies (the 99%).
Read in the language, write in the language, listen to the language, speak in the language, think in the language. Full, hardcore, total immersion would mean having no opportunity to escape to other languages when it’s time to read, write, listen, or speak 😅 the pressure and frustration forces the language into you but you’d probably pick up bad habits with that alone
There has been an enormous amount of cognitive immersion in English in this century mainly due to the internet, and the results are quite plain to see.
Unless you're a high level speaker, or in an English speaking country learning English, then lifestyle immersion is actually quite problematic. That is my experience living in a major city Vietnam. Luckily I have my wife, who despite having excellent English, always speaks to me in Vietnamese.
Lifestyle LI is I believe, while valuable, significantly overrated by its proponents. You end up hearing a lot of magical thinking going into things like "oh you'll improve so much just by switching your phone/computer language to the target" whereas realistically I'd be shocked if it counted for much of your progress at all. Especially considering most people know their phones/computers pretty well by this stage and could probably autopilot through most wizards and popups without actually reading them.
Good vid.
I think a bigger problem is that many people throw around Krashen's name every other sentence along with comprehensible input, then provide no explanation, or worse, a methodology that seems antithetical to their intro on said topics. Ill take practical application, tools, and practices over theory crafting any day.
So sorry about your lousy Thai Airways experience..
It's actually Bangkok Airport that is the bigger problem. Thai Airways itself is fine... it's just a shame that it has to stop in Thailand.
This may be creepy. But when I visit sweden next year, I'm gonna eves drop on other people's convos ALOT to get a better idea on how spoken conversational swedish sounds lol
I did that for like hours a day haha
@@daysandwords i'm glad I won't be the only one then 🤣
To be fair, it was also an excuse to drink coffee and eat croissants haha.
So you had to give up your white Sox hat. Don’t blame you. It’s been tough on the south side of Chicago this year. Real tough.
Haha I have like a million baseball hats, and actually one of my very nicest ones is a Whitesox hat... the one you mean is really old now, but I have a beautiful "monochrome" one that they were nice enough to give me at a quarter of its actual price just because the sticker from another hat had fallen on it and made it look like it was that price.
But yeah I'm not going to wear any WS hats at the moment for the reason you mention... However the Houston hat seems riskier because we'll probably make it to the post season and then lose and I'll get some smarta** about that...
Boston hat next video!
Also, I just watched the condensed game of O's vs WS from Sep 4th... worth checking out.