This is essentially what optical printing is in the photographic world. It’s very fascinating and I don’t hear many people talking about it. I appreciate you making this video
@@ChristopherVanderpool007 I don’t know any services for optical printing for photographic film but I know a film out service company, it’s called “PrePress Express.” They can output digital photos onto film whether it’s E6, C41, or B&W
the reason the positive came out like it did is beacuse negatives have this brown-ish base color which throws the colors way off, which makes me think... What if you did this with Harmon Phoenix 200 film? It has a transparent base instead of a brown one, therefore you could get a perfect positive?? idk
So the funny thing is that this is basically how film duplication works for Hollywood. You get internegatives and interpositives and the film stocks are specifically designed to have minimal grain (usually by being sub 25 iso) and a strange color response curve to compensate for the mask. As you might imagine this is much easier for black and white films because of the lack of mask. Definitely recommend shooting some internegative or interpositive stocks if you feel experimental
Film onto film is what used to be done to make copies of slides. There still are a bunch of "slide duplicator", "film copy" etc devices available and it used to be films specially designed for this purpose. It's also the way the film industry used to duplicate films so it could be shown at more than one movie theatre at a time. Maybe they still do when shooting on film. Negative film is different. While positive/slides are designed to be viewed "unmodified" negative film is designed for post processing. B&W film can be duplicated to positive with another B&W copy, but it's still not really designed to be viewed without adjustments in the darkroom. Negative color has a orange/brownish mask and making a copy on another negative color film will (as you showed) give kind of a positive, but the low contrast in color negatives and the mask make the result unusable, or at least very hard to post process. Copying negative film on a positive film can give a copy of the negative, but the difference in handling contrast will affect the results. And why do it except if you for some reason want to distribute a negative? Btw when scanning negatives for NLP on a scanner (without raw support) you do exactly that, scanning it as a positive assuming that NLP can do a better job of converting to positive than the scanner software (and it often can). In the old analog days you could get a slide form a negative. It's not something I've been able to do myself, but better camera stores offered this service. I don't know how they did it. Maybe it's also changed over time, but I've had it done a couple of times after trips when I had to buy extra film and couldn't get slide films. The results were not particularly good, but usable when there were no alternative.
Great comments! I had something similar to say, but no experience like you have. I also like the comment about cine film and how they make the copies for distribution. That sounds like the best solution ever.
I read the comment before watching it and thought no because typically the film scanning light is much brighter for any indoor ambient light to have any effect. Then i watched the video and saw those big fuck video lights.
As other people are saying, the brown color of the film is definitely the biggest issue here. Most professional C-41 negative films have the color of the film substrate tuned very specifically to play well with the RA-4 color printing process. Since the "scanning" films have their own brown backing, and because they're shooting an image that is tinted by that brown backing that didn't exist in the original image, it makes senses that we'd see so many shifts in the red/green channels influenced by brown tints that the "scanning" material didn't account for, hence the odd skin tones and magenta shifts. In theory though, this is quite fun and could give good results! I know some people enjoy taking scans of prints made from the RA-4 process, as some enjoy the way RA-4 completes the color reversal process over something like Negative Lab Pro's algorithms. In essence, an enlarger is just a reverse camera, so this approach is essentially just optical printing with equipment that's not quite tuned for the task.
I’ve actually wondered this for a very long time to see what would happen if you filmed a negative. I didn’t have the means to test it myself with the cost of development and scanning so thank you for doing this!
I've got 100' of 35 mm Kodak 2475 Recording Film frozen in time. Acutally, in a freezer😖 And a Nikon F3 or two. And a Valoi System⭐⭐⭐and Negative Lab Pro... Keep ya posted😂🪓
Every time I go to scan film with my mirrorless (or phone, because it's easier than setting up the camera), I think to myself that I should really get a macro lens. And then I remember on another camera I have an extension tube that gets me 1:1. And then I remember that it is a) a film camera and b) a Mamiya Rb67 and there is no way I'm going to try mounting that downward-facing.
I’ve done something like this before but with Harman Phoenix! The nature of that base-sometimes you can get a nearly clear base with a slight purple tint-makes it much more viable for this process. The latitude is still Harman Phoenix, however, so anything approaching highlights will be blown out and vice versa.
Actually did that for a school project back in the 80's. Not an art project, but a stills slide documentary about a small town in Sweden. I shot it on Tri-X 400 and to get the slides, I scanned the negatives on black and white film (can't remember what film, but I guess I used something with a lower ISO to get a better quality). It worked, from what I remember. Think I got the slides down in the basement. Haven't looked at them for almost 40 years, though.
I actually really like the vibe of ektar > portra > gold and I think it works best with the weird composition of the unhappy clowns like something you'd find in a cold case police file from the 60s. I also liked it's skin tones, they look better than the original ektar removing some of the red cast.
dude wtf why dont you have a million subscribers, i got so exited and curios when i saw the title cause its such a wild video. and your content is such good quality
I have a really old can of Kodak Vericolor 5072, which is specifically made for making slides from negatives. At one point I had tried to use it for regular color-negative photography. The problem with it was that is extremely low speed film, and the negatives have large color shifts to counteract the orange base of traditional C-41 film negatives. We had tried (at the lab I worked at back then) to correct out the color shifts but there just wasn't enough range in the purely optical printer we had.
A few film camera manufacturers had “film scanning” aka slide copying kits for copying slide film. Nikon later made a similar kit for scanning 35mm negating and 35mm slides along with a negative camera profile with the release of the Nikon D850.
I was playing around with this a little while ago, My goal was to make slides from my negatives. For best results, I was copying medium format negatives with FPP Blue Ultra. Blue Ultra is Kodak cinema print film. Since it's a print film, it has a clear base, and is designed for this purpose. Though from what I've done so far the images I get are very yellow, which from what Reddit has told me, is due to the print film being balanced for the much deeper orange base on negative cinema films. I haven't played with it in a while, but I want to try again with some color gels from my enlarger to dial in the amount of yellow and magenta I need to correct the color.
I want to see some experiments with Ektachrome positive film, such as scanning a positive and developing as a positive, scanning a C-41 negative with a Ektachrome developed as a positive, the same but cross-processing the Ektachrome as a negative, and also scanning a cross-processed Ektachrome negative with Ektachrome and cross-processing that as a negative.
Dude the way you presented that project is awesome! I thought I was watching like a 500k subscriber count channel. Keep going, this was fun! (nothing negative to say about it)
I actually think the ektar-portra-gold had some charm to it. it reminded me of like, a turn of the century color photography. I would’ve liked to have seen this with portra as the original film stock.
I'm guessing the color shift from ektar to ektar was at least partly due to the whitebalance. The studio lights were probably a different temperature than the light table and that did not translate well from film to film.
honestly, I think this is similar to how analog movie prints were made pre digital. but if I were to try this, I'd take a low grain color negative, and 'scan' it onto a high grain color film
Try with an RGB light source under the film to compensate for the film base color. -Set a digital camera to the rated white balance of the film you want to transmit the image onto and andjust the backlight (color and saturation) until the whites became white and colors look okay on the inverted image (you can invert the HDMI feed from camera with a capture card and OBS) -take the shot with the film -develop -scan (preferably with an RGB light source again)
It'd be cool to try this with an enlarger. Then you could use the color filtration to get a color balanced image when (scanning?) the image. It's basically just a darkroom print
Could a tungsten-balanced film help conteract the orange base of a typical C-41 film, since that's most similar to the warmth of tungsten light? I've had this idea so many times but I haven't tried it
this process would be interesting on 4x5 since you could technically contact print using internegatives or interpositives. I feel like there's still so many boxes of that laying around since it's such low iso film
What if you scan a 4x5 or 6x9 film on 100 asa 35mm film with an extremely Sharp macro lens shot at F10, and mirror lock up ? Will it still look like large or medium format ?
My favorite photographer as a kid in the 70s was Pete Turner who created these strikingly saturated photographs by duping Kodachrome on Kodachrome, sometime with added filtration, in a specially modified Repronar. Mitchell Funk did the same thing but often added a multiple slides.
i been thinking about doing this with black and white film to make tiny positives so I could incorporate my photography into my jewelry, I almost bought a slide duplicator setup for my slr but I have other things I need to waste money on right now!
I have some proper film for that, it's called slide duplicating film , which is low ISO and originally has a cyan mask incorporated, to compensate the orange one on the original negative. One day I will do this duplication of a negative, to see what are the results, because the film is old. Ive only used it as is, and then digitise the negatives and reverse in post.
Hey I would recommend trying this out with Ilford FP4 since it has a clear base and it gives really good positives! I also wonder what ECN2 film would be like since there made for printing onto other films stocks to make a positive print? Anyways, thanks for finally making the video which has been rattling in head to!
wasn't this an old technique done in the darkroom with black and white film? for example, you'd print an image and lets just say even with grade 5 contrast filters you still didn't have enough contrast what you'd do is take a photo of that printed image and then go through the process of reprinting it in the darkroom and viola, you'd had some super awesome contrast and grain going on. You should try some black and white film next time. I'm sure it'll be a better experience than your color photos.
Why ??
Because
why not
We’re going full analog boys - Owning a digital camera is treason
@@patrick8167-d2u ‼️
Science isn't about why, Science is about WHY NOT!?
So much of UA-cam is "You have my interest but why would you do that?" This fits that perfectly
that’s so unbelievably accurate. I mistakenly hit that mark 😂😂
This is essentially what optical printing is in the photographic world. It’s very fascinating and I don’t hear many people talking about it. I appreciate you making this video
My current film out service is closing its doors at the end of the year - would you know any providers of optical printing or film out services?
@@ChristopherVanderpool007 I don’t know any services for optical printing for photographic film but I know a film out service company, it’s called “PrePress Express.” They can output digital photos onto film whether it’s E6, C41, or B&W
the reason the positive came out like it did is beacuse negatives have this brown-ish base color which throws the colors way off, which makes me think...
What if you did this with Harmon Phoenix 200 film? It has a transparent base instead of a brown one, therefore you could get a perfect positive?? idk
I should add that sometimes the phoenix base color comes out kinda purple, it's a bit unpredictable i guess
@@Leo-tz7lp SantaColor 100 is also almost a transparent base
@@BaileySherman-fe7kg santacolor is kodak aerocolor, so all respools of aerocolor would work
So the funny thing is that this is basically how film duplication works for Hollywood. You get internegatives and interpositives and the film stocks are specifically designed to have minimal grain (usually by being sub 25 iso) and a strange color response curve to compensate for the mask. As you might imagine this is much easier for black and white films because of the lack of mask.
Definitely recommend shooting some internegative or interpositive stocks if you feel experimental
Film Photography Project FPP LOW ISO COLOR is a film to shoot internegative of negatives with orange mask. It is very blue for this purpose. ISO 1.6
@@baovAwesome! Let’s do it!
@@baov I just shot a roll of that yesterday. The samples I've seen look amazing so I'm really curious how mine turned out
Film onto film is what used to be done to make copies of slides. There still are a bunch of "slide duplicator", "film copy" etc devices available and it used to be films specially designed for this purpose. It's also the way the film industry used to duplicate films so it could be shown at more than one movie theatre at a time. Maybe they still do when shooting on film.
Negative film is different. While positive/slides are designed to be viewed "unmodified" negative film is designed for post processing. B&W film can be duplicated to positive with another B&W copy, but it's still not really designed to be viewed without adjustments in the darkroom. Negative color has a orange/brownish mask and making a copy on another negative color film will (as you showed) give kind of a positive, but the low contrast in color negatives and the mask make the result unusable, or at least very hard to post process.
Copying negative film on a positive film can give a copy of the negative, but the difference in handling contrast will affect the results. And why do it except if you for some reason want to distribute a negative? Btw when scanning negatives for NLP on a scanner (without raw support) you do exactly that, scanning it as a positive assuming that NLP can do a better job of converting to positive than the scanner software (and it often can).
In the old analog days you could get a slide form a negative. It's not something I've been able to do myself, but better camera stores offered this service. I don't know how they did it. Maybe it's also changed over time, but I've had it done a couple of times after trips when I had to buy extra film and couldn't get slide films. The results were not particularly good, but usable when there were no alternative.
Great comments! I had something similar to say, but no experience like you have. I also like the comment about cine film and how they make the copies for distribution. That sounds like the best solution ever.
won't the overhead lights affect the result? shouldn't there be a bottom light only? lol, bottom
The overhead lights would only appear as glare. As long as there’s no glare, stray light shouldn’t have an effect.
I read the comment before watching it and thought no because typically the film scanning light is much brighter for any indoor ambient light to have any effect.
Then i watched the video and saw those big fuck video lights.
As other people are saying, the brown color of the film is definitely the biggest issue here. Most professional C-41 negative films have the color of the film substrate tuned very specifically to play well with the RA-4 color printing process. Since the "scanning" films have their own brown backing, and because they're shooting an image that is tinted by that brown backing that didn't exist in the original image, it makes senses that we'd see so many shifts in the red/green channels influenced by brown tints that the "scanning" material didn't account for, hence the odd skin tones and magenta shifts.
In theory though, this is quite fun and could give good results! I know some people enjoy taking scans of prints made from the RA-4 process, as some enjoy the way RA-4 completes the color reversal process over something like Negative Lab Pro's algorithms. In essence, an enlarger is just a reverse camera, so this approach is essentially just optical printing with equipment that's not quite tuned for the task.
missed a huge oppurtunity to scan 35 with medium format
Damn, thats the analog content that we need, lets go mad before we lost most films!
That's a way to confuse the heck out of your lab 😂
This is something that I would have never thought of, but excited to see!
I’ve actually wondered this for a very long time to see what would happen if you filmed a negative. I didn’t have the means to test it myself with the cost of development and scanning so thank you for doing this!
bro did the most Crazy idea we never asked but allways wanted to see
There is a legend that if you say "Ektar" thrice while looking in the mirror, the colors of your reflection change
new vid before sleep? Excellent.
Hope you enjoyed it! Sleep tight 🤣
This is absurd and I’m here for it
🫡🫡🫡
Thank god someone finally make video about this, I have been questioning myself about this too for so long 😂
Already saw the grain video, glad to be here before this channel blows tf up
Thank you for watching! More stuff coming soon🫡
So what you did, is regular film (feature film) processing: negative -> interpositive -> internegative.
I've got 100' of 35 mm Kodak 2475 Recording Film frozen in time. Acutally, in a freezer😖 And a Nikon F3 or two. And a Valoi System⭐⭐⭐and Negative Lab Pro... Keep ya posted😂🪓
This was super interesting. It is the kind of "dumb" experiment we think but never follow through. Thanks for documenting it!
@@gu4xinim thank you for watching!
Every time I go to scan film with my mirrorless (or phone, because it's easier than setting up the camera), I think to myself that I should really get a macro lens. And then I remember on another camera I have an extension tube that gets me 1:1. And then I remember that it is a) a film camera and b) a Mamiya Rb67 and there is no way I'm going to try mounting that downward-facing.
The "positive" image probably looks so bad because the inversion of the scan is compensating for colour shifts and saturation, which then is missing.
I’ve done something like this before but with Harman Phoenix! The nature of that base-sometimes you can get a nearly clear base with a slight purple tint-makes it much more viable for this process. The latitude is still Harman Phoenix, however, so anything approaching highlights will be blown out and vice versa.
Actually did that for a school project back in the 80's. Not an art project, but a stills slide documentary about a small town in Sweden. I shot it on Tri-X 400 and to get the slides, I scanned the negatives on black and white film (can't remember what film, but I guess I used something with a lower ISO to get a better quality). It worked, from what I remember. Think I got the slides down in the basement. Haven't looked at them for almost 40 years, though.
You could do the same experiment with Kodak Vision 250D and a color print film like Kodak 2383
lol this is hilarious and thank you for your dedication to the craft
🫡🫡 thank you for watching
Film king appearances make my day
Next video: developing film with coffee.
That’s in my list of ideas lol
I have plans to shoot a roll or two of coffee shops, develop in caffenol, make a cyanotype print, and tone the print with...coffee.
I actually really like the vibe of ektar > portra > gold and I think it works best with the weird composition of the unhappy clowns like something you'd find in a cold case police file from the 60s. I also liked it's skin tones, they look better than the original ektar removing some of the red cast.
The intro intrigued me, but i was hooked once i saw that clown photo. Amazing.
@@elliotmarks06 thanks for watching!
dude wtf why dont you have a million subscribers, i got so exited and curios when i saw the title cause its such a wild video. and your content is such good quality
Wow, thank you so much. I try!
Thank you so much for doing this experiment I had in mind for a long time!
You saved me time and film stocks! ❤
I have a really old can of Kodak Vericolor 5072, which is specifically made for making slides from negatives. At one point I had tried to use it for regular color-negative photography. The problem with it was that is extremely low speed film, and the negatives have large color shifts to counteract the orange base of traditional C-41 film negatives. We had tried (at the lab I worked at back then) to correct out the color shifts but there just wasn't enough range in the purely optical printer we had.
You´re a scientist testing science that was already tested by another scientist.
This was a common film-geek experiment in the pre-digital days. Negative of a Negative to get a positive. The results were never great but it was fun.
I have thought of this so many times, just because WHY NOT TRY. Thank you for your service.
🫡🫡🫡
A few film camera manufacturers had “film scanning” aka slide copying kits for copying slide film. Nikon later made a similar kit for scanning 35mm negating and 35mm slides along with a negative camera profile with the release of the Nikon D850.
I had that question for years but never dared to try! Thanks for the fun video!
This was fantastic 😂 Your dad is such a legend
He is indeed😂
This is basically the Max Fosh of the camera world 😭😭🎺
@@bilibilix4007 best compliment ever, he’s my favorite!
I was playing around with this a little while ago, My goal was to make slides from my negatives. For best results, I was copying medium format negatives with FPP Blue Ultra. Blue Ultra is Kodak cinema print film. Since it's a print film, it has a clear base, and is designed for this purpose.
Though from what I've done so far the images I get are very yellow, which from what Reddit has told me, is due to the print film being balanced for the much deeper orange base on negative cinema films. I haven't played with it in a while, but I want to try again with some color gels from my enlarger to dial in the amount of yellow and magenta I need to correct the color.
I want to see some experiments with Ektachrome positive film, such as scanning a positive and developing as a positive, scanning a C-41 negative with a Ektachrome developed as a positive, the same but cross-processing the Ektachrome as a negative, and also scanning a cross-processed Ektachrome negative with Ektachrome and cross-processing that as a negative.
I have no idea what you just said but I like it
Oh god I was definitively waiting for someone to do that !
I am an agent of chaos, and as such, my ideal Frankenfilm would be:
Ilford Ilfocolor -> Harman Phoenix -> Lomochrome Purple
Dude the way you presented that project is awesome! I thought I was watching like a 500k subscriber count channel. Keep going, this was fun! (nothing negative to say about it)
Thank you so much!
Very good video concept 👌 this stuff gets views
Thank you!
This video was enough for me to sub. This is the content I need.
@@willemcrookes486 thank you for subbing! More content like this coming.
Another great video.. I learned a lot and also laughed!
I actually think the ektar-portra-gold had some charm to it. it reminded me of like, a turn of the century color photography.
I would’ve liked to have seen this with portra as the original film stock.
Just got out from marching practice with 102 degrees and I see this art👍
Thank you for watching!!
so cool, by the end of this year the dad test portraits are gonna be a photobook.
That’s already been in the back of my mind 😂
oh thank god i can do this on my fujifilm xt50. Its almost basically overlaying a film sim over a film sim. It does not look like what you have though
I'm guessing the color shift from ektar to ektar was at least partly due to the whitebalance. The studio lights were probably a different temperature than the light table and that did not translate well from film to film.
honestly, I think this is similar to how analog movie prints were made pre digital.
but if I were to try this, I'd take a low grain color negative, and 'scan' it onto a high grain color film
Watched it because your video was mentioned in the Peta Pixel Podcast. Fun experiment
What?????
@maxadams69 Yes. In the last podcast. It was the feel good story of the week
@@S3mj0n holy shit that’s insane
Inception: it's like a film in another film.
Try with an RGB light source under the film to compensate for the film base color.
-Set a digital camera to the rated white balance of the film you want to transmit the image onto and andjust the backlight (color and saturation) until the whites became white and colors look okay on the inverted image (you can invert the HDMI feed from camera with a capture card and OBS)
-take the shot with the film
-develop
-scan (preferably with an RGB light source again)
Also just use a film with a (nearly) clear base as others mentioned
I'm so glad you made this video
Thanks I’m glad you watched!
this is a really well made video for the channel size, well done!!
@@thebloke4664 thanks bloke!
IT’d be interesting to toss a color checker chart in there to see how much you can get back in the second set of photos.
i dunno, i kinda like the frankenfilm.... great video!! very interesting
It'd be cool to try this with an enlarger. Then you could use the color filtration to get a color balanced image when (scanning?) the image. It's basically just a darkroom print
Max, that was NOT an age old question, but I'm glad you answered it.
😂😂
Ahah crazy video ! I did stuff like that and 35mm panoramic backs when I had time on my own and no kids 😂
Ektar porta gold actually looks sick
Could a tungsten-balanced film help conteract the orange base of a typical C-41 film, since that's most similar to the warmth of tungsten light? I've had this idea so many times but I haven't tried it
i actually wondered this too and just never tested. This is my kinda stupid :D Two thumbs WAY up
I want all the free time you have to came up with ideas like this, this video was hilarious!!!
The idea list is endless😂 thank you!!
I really like FrankenFilm. Has that lomo vibe
Another banger. Great video and experiment. Your editing is 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Thank you!!! Had fun on this one
this process would be interesting on 4x5 since you could technically contact print using internegatives or interpositives. I feel like there's still so many boxes of that laying around since it's such low iso film
Taking those shots with all of the extra filming light added to the backlight. Hardly ideal.
lmao bro
Using film with a clear base or using a cooling filter would probably get you more accurate results, like Harman pheonix
I would LOVE to see you “scan” pictures on Kodak print film 2383 - it’s basically designed for this purpose!
I don't know why the Film King was so sure it wouldn't be a positive haha
Paid actor 😉
@@phototipster You fooled me. I should've known you didn't earn your title by making mistakes like that!
Because it's not a positive - you couldn't project it and you have to do base fog removal to get anything approaching a workable image
What if you scan a 4x5 or 6x9 film on 100 asa 35mm film with an extremely Sharp macro lens shot at F10, and mirror lock up ? Will it still look like large or medium format ?
I have literally no idea😂 probably not
My favorite photographer as a kid in the 70s was Pete Turner who created these strikingly saturated photographs by duping Kodachrome on Kodachrome, sometime with added filtration, in a specially modified Repronar. Mitchell Funk did the same thing but often added a multiple slides.
Nice I’m gonna look in to this! Thanks for the insight
It would be interesting to see a negative scanned onto a filmstock without an orange base like Harmon Phoenix
i been thinking about doing this with black and white film to make tiny positives so I could incorporate my photography into my jewelry, I almost bought a slide duplicator setup for my slr but I have other things I need to waste money on right now!
Doing gods work. Keep it up 🙏😂
Okay but can you take a digital negative and scan it in with film?? 🤔🤔🤔🤔
I have some proper film for that, it's called slide duplicating film , which is low ISO and originally has a cyan mask incorporated, to compensate the orange one on the original negative. One day I will do this duplication of a negative, to see what are the results, because the film is old. Ive only used it as is, and then digitise the negatives and reverse in post.
Hey I would recommend trying this out with Ilford FP4 since it has a clear base and it gives really good positives! I also wonder what ECN2 film would be like since there made for printing onto other films stocks to make a positive print? Anyways, thanks for finally making the video which has been rattling in head to!
There was so many ways I could have gone I wish I could have done them all! Fp4 is a good idea, thanks for watching!!
This could be really effective using aerocolor, since the base is transparent(ish), you would lose that orange cast.
Such a fun video. 🎉
Aerocolor --> Aerocolor or Phoenix --> Phoenix would be my choices. in B&W I'd just use Scala 50 but processed as a negative.
wasn't this an old technique done in the darkroom with black and white film?
for example, you'd print an image and lets just say even with grade 5 contrast filters you still didn't have enough contrast what you'd do is take a photo of that printed image and then go through the process of reprinting it in the darkroom and viola, you'd had some super awesome contrast and grain going on. You should try some black and white film next time. I'm sure it'll be a better experience than your color photos.
If you scan a negative with a color reversal film will you get a negative
Ektar Portra Ektar, going dark.
Loved the video, keep them coming!
More to come! Thank you :)
What about scanning scanned film of a scan of film on a film camera
Completely Bonkers. Perfect.
that's the idea!
You did the thing I always wanna know
Negative times Negative is Positive, and that's not clowning.
So stupid but so entertaining, hats off to you 😂 legend
That’s the goal😂 thank you!!
Only 17k views is crazy this was so neat
Thank you :)
Movie industry has been doing this for over 100 years, how do you think they copied film for editing and later cinemas?