They forgot the fact that live service games can just shut down any time they want and everything you paid/worked for just disappear with no guarantee of a refund.
It is also for this reason I hate single player games that force online connectivity. Servers can shut down and then I'd lose access to what I paid for. Pretty scummy if you ask me.
@@jordanbomb32 I just found this out the other day. I redownloaded 2k20 my guy was maxed out and I payed for VC(only one I’ve ever paid into) and I couldn’t even play my single player. I knew the street was gone but I didn’t know you lost your character. It really makes it to I’m never buying 2k again.
The problem is that the focus of Live Service Games has changed as time has passed. Previously, the concept was that developers could expand the work already done by adding new things for players to do during the active period. Nowadays, updates and DLCs serve to complete the game, not expand it.
Hear hear. The ideal concept of a "Live Service Game" or "Games as a Service" is that the game you ship with is already complete, and then you support it with additional content to keep players going. Such a game will also typically be a multiplayer game, with either coop or PvP elements, in order to create a social bond that keeps players in the game. The problem is that monetization has become the core objective of Live Services instead of fun gameplay, where "player engagement" statistics are considered vital in order to entrap players through the grind. Instead of a game where you spend time in it because it's fun, you're forced to spend time in it just to get to the fun part.
The problem is they fell in love with the idea of an infinite money machine. Instead of starting with a good game and using the live service to add new things to it, they start with monetization strategies and then build a minimum viable product around those strategies, hoping it'll be enough to hold player's attention while they implement their "road map" of expansions/improvements over time.
@@randomstuff-qu7sh exactly but even for the whales have money, if there is two games that i could spend 500$'s in, as I'm already putting 500$'s in one, I'm eitehr only playing one, or I'm putting 250-350 in each, they don't magicly make a ton of money from me. PLUS if all you have to offer me is spending money but little else I'm not doing even that. I put a lot of money into marvel heroes because it was A) fun and B had alot of stuff and ways to get things for free, that made spending money every so often worth it. It got bad near the end, but for the longest time it was a great example of how to do a live service.
I didn’t have internet for a long time. Growing up in a rural area. Not until I was 18. When Destiny dropped I was no longer able to keep up with my friends when it came to video games. I subsequently started feeling left out in conversation and they weren’t interested in playing split screen or party games with me anymore. It really sucked and overtime I’ve let go of my jealousy of Destiny because it is a good game but I have always hated games as a service. When Jake or Falcon would mention that not everyone had good internet it always made me feel like I hadn’t been forgotten.
yesss im not alone in this regard! on the other hand, i was blessed with good internet from time, but i refuse to partake in anything online based! couch co-op or single player only! ok ok i admit its pretty much single player life mostly for me but i like it that way! also something about the lack of friends or humans in general to socialize with.... my generalized Millennial problems......
This is one of the points i was making about the Xbox One in general. If you don’t have internet the machine will not do anything. People’s response, just take it to a library or a friend’s house and download the update there. Forget to download the blu-ray player app? Too bad. Nowadays, i think about COD Warzone and people who have download caps. There are places where you can be limited to a few hundred GB of data that come through. Warzone had 40GB daily downloads for a while. Screw those people am i right?
Destiny vet here I finally let go of it because I felt like of what I paid for was not content that they was putting out overall it was time for me to play other games and catch-up on my everlasting games I put on my backlog because I devoted so much time to destiny 1 and 2 although I don’t play it anymore I still check out UA-camr who still play it from time to time
These days soo many people are completely reliant on the internet. There are a lot of good games I've missed out on due to lack of usable internet. And there's streaming, etc. Some people just don't get it. Why do I have CD's? A collection of movies? Why do you need that much storage on your phone/device? Why have you not seen your old friends in years? I can't even find the words right now. Without the internet there's a lot of people who be lost and miserable and they would have to rebuild themselves in order to even function. The internet is great. But it can also turn into a drug that twists people and causes pain.
It’s also tiring having games with multiple currencies. You want to buy item x, so you buy a currency, then you find out that item is bought with a different currency. On top of that, how many live service games have shut down? A lot of them say they have this 10 year plan and only last a year or two.
The whole ten year plan thing is more of a projection. Once the playerbase falls and keeps falling, they cut it off indefinitely, even if they're choosing into working on anything for those ten years.
They do that multiple currency thing explicitly to make the mental math for working out what's good value all but impossible. Makes it much harder to remember just how much money you paid and for what. When i see a game do that i immediately uninstall it because its clear evidence the people in charge of it are happy to prioritise every tiny profit squeeze they can IN SPITE of our known desire not to be squeezed. Like they saw their players having an unpleasant time with oppressive monetisation and instead of going "maybe we should stop this" they went "how can we subvert these people's will and trick them into doing what we want anyway?" And that, frankly, makes me sick
Absolutely spot on about the elusive nature of satisfaction in these games. Their aim is to keep your attention captured to continuely monitise you, similar to social media - not to satisfy you or enrich your life.
To be fair though, they're mostly competitive games. I come from a fighting game background, and in those games, the satisfaction comes from getting better beating your (human) opponent. Same with most games as a service games.
@@jonathoncook8367 Anything can be twisted and perverted for selfish purposes, gaming is not immune to this. it wasn't always like this though, there was a time when playing a game was on par with reading a book. You did it for pure escapist fun but then moved on once It was over. It did not consume all your time and money like they are trying to do now.
The fact that one of the changes from Overwatch 1 - 2, is that when you log in, instead of immediately having the play button be selected, what's selected is the third option down...the store. You log into the game expecting to play a game and instead they shout in your face "buy something!". God I do not miss that game. Edit: I'm talking about the console version (specifically ps4), you have no mouse so just have to flick between the menu options.
Wow im glad someone has encompased my entire feelings on gaming in abiut 10 minutes. I hope exects listen to this. We need companys to run correctly again. Its not the devs or writers. Trust me. Noone wants to see there artistic works become a money hungry monster. Especially since the artist usually gets the shaft from the beginning.
The power is in our hands actually. They continue cuz we give em money if the majority just said " no we aren't going to pay for this trash until you actually deliver " that'll change their behavior real quick if everyone just banded together to fight this we could have left live service in the gutter years ago.
I completely stopped playing those games after realising how much time I spent in one when I was leader of a guild. Full-time job indeed. And now, I play a ton of different games and actually have fun finishing them!
Really like your "special" videos where you simply talk about different things happening right now in the industry. I personally don't care about live service games and simply ignore them. I remember only one time when I found this topic relevant to my life (If you can even count it), and it was when Rockstar said they will stop adding new content to RDR2 online, probably because it wasn't as popular as GTA 5 online is
@@gameranxTV btw, when you go on to talk about Anthem, at one point you mention it was made by respectful developers, and a giant "DICE" logo appears. I thought the game was made by BioWare
I played Destiny almost every day from 2014 to 2019. Let me tell you, when you finally break yourself free from a mediocre live service, the last thing you want is to play another one.
was destiny always live service? back in 2014 you had to buy the game(I still have that physical copy. it wasn't until shadowkeep where it went free and went live service right? I stopped after beyond light simply because I couldn't keep up with it any.ore
I still play D2 and I'm still having fun with it. The gameplay is satisfying, the buildcrafting is fun and grinding for new and better gear is addictive. I still think they handle the live-service aspect better than most. That said, Lightfall's campaign was extremely mid and I can't really recommend it. I just think D2 is not a good example. A better example of pisspoor live-service is Halo Infinite
@@MythicAce218 Destiny has always been a live service game with constant updates, quality of life changes, guaranteed expansion content every year or so, ever since 2014. That fits the criteria for a Live Service model
@@Pwedict that's what a live service game is? I always thought live service games were like final fantasy 14 where you pay monthly or yearly to play the game. I feel like an idiot
@@MythicAce218 Nah, you’re not an idiot. Think of Destiny / Destiny 2. They’re constantly updated, but they have this “expansion” every year, which is effectively a subscription if you want to be caught up on all the new stuff. So live service models differ, but what they have in common is that there’s usually a paywall to new stuff with all those types of games
They don't even give us bad or average, they give us nothing. At least back in the day there were bad games but you could tell they at least tried. Now there's no love in the games anymore.
When I saw the title to this video I thought: "Does anyone really need this explained to them?" Then I realized that yes, the publishers need this drilled into their minds.
You can explain this to them all day, every day, but until the majority stops investing in those games, they will not, and cannot change! Their executives will not let them deviate until the money is not there.
Go look at the top like 20 games in terms of revenue. They are pretty much all live service games. Hate to break it to you but you are the minority. People play the shit out of live service games and they aren't going to stop because you don't like them.
Obviously there are gamers who don't get it. If nobody was playing these games, they wouldn't be making them. Stupid people enable publishers to make this crap. How can you blame the publishers for doing their job and finding ways to make the most money for the least amount of work? They'd be negligent if they weren't taking advantage of the fools that spend money on this garbage.
The frustrating thing about the Live Service games I've played a lot (Anthem, Avengers) is that there were great game mechanics and great moments in the games. But they weren't built upon and got repetitive and uber-grind heavy VERY quickly.
I played the campaign of Avengers and enjoyed it. I tried playing the Hawkeye and Black Panther expansions when they released, but it just didn't feel quite as good. Also the gear system didn't make much sense for a Superhero game, especially considering there was gear for the Hulk. Most of the "new" characters were also just copies of old ones, which wasn't super exciting.
@@timotheninja the Wakanda expansion was ok except for the final boss. Cheap as hell. Also didn't like the whole sonic and vibranium damage types they tried to introduce. Made it overly complicated. I just kinda contributed Hulk's great to "adaptations." Gotta do something to apply it, right?
I think the only reason why Destiny and Warframe work as a live service is because Bungie and Digital Extremes only work on those games. 100% of the studios support them. Investing in a live service froma giant corporation is risky because they can afford to scrap the project after 6 months if they don't turn a profit.
My favorite part of gaming has been the part after finishing a great game and sitting there wrapping it all up in my head remembering the great parts and sometimes even wondering “what do I do now?” Because it was that much of an experience that I now feel empty lol. Live service games just make me feel like I’m walking through mud to reach points of fun or accomplishment that are going to become irrelevant next patch lol.
@@lucianwong420 Same. That is what really makes a game/series stand out in my mind. If you have a minor existential crisis after finishing a game, you know it was good lol.
I feel as if it kind of prevents you from experimentation with things like mods and also prevents you from enjoying the game without a internet connection As well as the occasional mix of microtransactions for useless skins
You said it perfectly! I missed so many good games for like 2 years because I was to busy playing one stupid game and didn't want to be left behind Completely addicted I'll never play another ever again
The worst part of live service games is when they just stop working because the devs are done. Dragalia Lost was one of my favorite games of all time, and when Nintendo shut it down, it just disappeared. All that time and money poofed away with nothing to show for it. I can't even hop in and do any solo fights for fun anymore, even though it had an extremely robust single player experience. It's hard to feel invested in a live service game knowing it could all be taken from you on a whim.
Falcon knows! Falcon is a good bird! The thing that I love all these years that I watch Gameranx is that these guys will really tell you what is going on,no bs, just pros and cons,all in your face for you to decide. Keep up the good work lads
Oh please! They roll out BS all the time, & everyone knows its old man Falcon that hates LSGs because they're full of really capable & seriously sweaty gamers & Falcon just wants to chill and play single player games. Nothing wrong w/that, but if "everyone" hates LSGs, why is everyone playing them? Maybe that's why they're hated, because they're fucking loved deeply by literally hundreds of millions of people. And I'm old, so this isn't an age thing. I started gaming only 5 years ago for a disability & the only stuff could get into was Fortnite & Destiny, which was unfortunate because I sucked & they're both high skill games, but I sweat my ass off & now I've got KD ratios in both games that a teen could brag about.
Honestly, a good live-service game in my opinion is Final Fantasy 14. It has a good amount of frequent updates that are always available and tend to be valid at all times, and the developer has told the community that they don't have to play the game. Generally, he has said that FOMO isn't something to be concerned about with FF14, just come back when you want to. And the community is some of the best in the business. Everyone is so incredibly helpful, kind, and sometimes goofy. It isn't hard, at all, to find a good clan of kind-hearted people who just wanna have fun. I've noticed that you don't even need to look for them, they'll come to you within a few hours! And every update is part of a continuing story that never gets gated with later updates. The base game (A Realm Reborn) is just as relevant to a player as the latest expansion and patch. It's just a great experience!
Ff14 is one of thouse games that got fixed to a playable state after 1.0 and coming on the the game around the hevensward expansion I have been happy with the main story so far and I have played through endwalker as well yoshi p is doing a good job with it
@@lstsoul4376 you don't need anything in the cash shop doofus, and it's a gigantic mmo just like 11... of course it has a subscription, you know to pay for the servers... and further development...
@@Azhrei2000 There’s ton of f2p games without any subscription so your last sentence doesn’t make sense. I don’t see any problem is purchasing the game and maybe its expansion, but I won’t play it because of the monthly fee which I disagree
For me, my major issue is the "copy and paste" elements. A lot of live service games are essentially the same games with a different skin and maybe some different mechanic that "makes them different"
If it's not a PvP focused game (and sometimes even then) you gotta have some kind of central lobby area so you can see all the randoms in one place... mostly so that you can see them opening lootboxes and getting fancier stuff than you.
@@odst2247 Cod ww2 and fortnite. COD literally let you open loot mid lobby infront of everyone incentivesing players to buy crap. And fortnite is a living add
I'm surprised we don't get coverage of Deep Rock Galactic. It's a live service, but is much more fair with monetization using cosmetic DLC at fair prices. It also has supporter packs for those who like to splurge. All to get regular updates on what's already an amazing base game with great base game content and unlocks.
I feel like the biggest problem with them is the way it affects kids and parents/grandparents who don’t follow games. About 3-4 years ago my nephew was obsessed with the OG of problems, Fortnite. He would play online and get mad when people would give him a hard time about skins. He convinced his mom to put her card onto his ps4 so he could put $10 down for the battle pass each season. Well my sister-in-law didn’t know enough about these types of games to understand the risk. After the battle pass didn’t cover all the skins he began making small charges one after the other until he’d charged over $200 on skins within a month. This is my biggest problems with anything that has an online transaction. I can say no and not lose any sleep, kids can’t always.
sounds more like your sister's fault, also better off just sitting kids down and telling them they can't have every little thing they see, or maybe she should have actually playing with her kid, doesn't take very long (as long the fortnite's store isn't just littered with everything that isn't needed). Sorry just parents really need to pay more attention to these things heck could has easily put a password on the card in the store.
People don't necessarily hate live service games, especially when they're done well. They hate the fact that every game is turning into a live service game, even when they don't need to be.
I think the simple answer is the range of quality between each "service". In most cases the range of quality is so inconsistent and if you're not 100% invested or ready to waste money, then its generally less fun than most "non-service" games.
Great video, Falcon. If there is to be a follow up, I'd like to see a discussion on what live-service games actually seem to do well. Warframe is a good example and part of the reason, at least for me, is that the base game is free. You can put money into it, but there is a lot you can do without sinking a dime into it. Admittedly, I don't have much time invested and in between when I first started playing when it was new and now, a ton has been added (almost too much for my taste) but I still have yet to pay for anything.
The game has enough to entertain you for years if you don't rush it like a lot of veterans who now complain cuz there's nothing to do. Just play with a slow or normal pace and trust me you'll be very satisfied. I know from experience, been playing since 2014 I still have things to farm, get and test out in that game Every moment is precious to me.
@@whysoserious4274 This is true. I was a fairly early adopter but stepped away from it for a while. When I was last there, it was worlds different from my previous visit, but there is still a lot to explore (I remember when the boss, The Jackal, was a new addition.)
@@thejackal007 yep Warframe has gone through many changes and most of it has been positive. Deserves more love than some other free to play games ( looking at you genshin )
The Witcher 3 is one of the greatest games I have ever played, my favorite part about it is that it does a good job of really immersing you into being a Witcher with all of the hunts and side missions, but with that in mind, I like to explore everything, ever nook and cranny, and with the way I enjoy the game it’s a 500-1000 hour game and I just don’t have that time to put into it . I never thought I’d see a game with such a large quantity of quality content and actually have that be my one and only issue with the experience, am I crazy for this.
There was a live service game I was playing, and actually liked. I got the error that pretty much meant my account save was broken, meaning everything was gone. And I was like, YES! I don't have to play this game anymore!
People love content. We want more constantly. Whether that's dlc, expansions, new games, or mods. It doesn't matter. What matters is how it's released, how it's monetized, and if you can't play if you're not online.
@@drinnerd8532 It's should be a law these days, but sadly lawmakers these days are still boomers / semi-boomers that knows nothing about games, maybe in 30~40 years where everyone was born with internet or cellphone, they'll put laws for these kind of games.
I used to play a ton of hours in some games like these, the division 2, destiny 1 and 2, a sizable amount of hours in animal crossing new horizons, rocket league. I also tried genshin impact about a year ago and in the short time I played it, in terms of actual gameplay, I didn’t feel like I was having fun in the world and stopped playing. I think I’m forgetting a few more live service games that I admittedly endlessly spent too much time on. These days I like to mostly play games that are purely single player and maybe some games that have a solo campaign and online mode. Just having a ending to a otherwise good game can make it at least worth while, depending on the game and who made and published it
Genshin being a gacha is a curse. you can't deny it's success and reputation sure but it's all because of the gacha system in place and it's not kind at all. I'm more of a Warframe person At least every character on there is not in a gacha and can be unlocked free It just requires a little grinding and even the special currency in the game is farmable which gets you exp or credit boosters and a lot of cosmetics to try on your Warframe, your ship and your weapons. It's a much better game And it has a story too that is also developing and the lore is huge if you take the time to understand it Very beautiful game in my opinion. Idk If you have the time you should give it a try if you haven't already I have feeling you won't be disappointed.
@@whysoserious4274 in fact played some Warframe before. I first got into it on PS4 in 2019, but that was 3 or 4 years ago so I don’t know if I made some or barely any progress at all on my character. I tried to get back into playing the game last year and idk why I didn’t invest some time into the story. The characters just seem sort of confusing to know who’s who, but imo it’s much better than Destiny 2 in terms of overall player experience. Regarding Destiny 2’s recent expansion, Lightfall, even it’s somewhat good (besides the awful story from what I’ve heard) I’m not really as much of a Destiny 2 player when the Forsaken expansion came out than I am now to care let alone play all the way to the end. Anyway, those are my thoughts on live service games and the like (I guess I can consider Warframe a exception as a consistently good game) so have a good day or night
@@rurio3723 it's all good I understand. Warframe's story is strange if you don't know where to start You have to read about it a lot to be able to understand what it is the tenno do and why they do it. Some of the story quests tell the more important parts but you won't understand those important parts if you don't read on the smaller parts. I'm not forcing playing the game I just mean like Warframe is there if you run out of options on what to play it won't mess around with you You know what you are getting And the game is a lot more fun with people mainly friends You can kick back, crack a cold one, blast some music or a podcast and enjoy your Warframe builds or some relaxing farming in the open world planets and all can be done at your pace You're not racing anybody to be the best or to stay up to date. Been playing the game since 2014 and there's still a lot I do in the game and I still find ways to get entertained and get distracted. Well anyway I've said my piece You have a good day too.
I feel like more should be spoken about the addictive element of live service games! It's a constant chase and can be very damaging if it reaches the wrong people.
I started playing Fortnite a little before covid and I had spent 6 MONTHS in the game over 2 years. I don't want to know how much money I spent during that time. I did play a lot with friends, though, and met new friends from it, so it wasn't all bad, but I'm never spending that much time or money on a game again. I'd play late into the night trying to grind out the battlepass (which is spread out over 200+ levels now), or in the Save the World mode trying to grind a dollar or two worth of v-bucks so I could get something in the item shop. People should definitely be aware of how much time and money you can unintentionally sink into these games, especially because so many kids play them.
I would have to say Final Fantasy 14 is probably the most generous live service mmo right now, if you're into story that anyone could offer. The amount of work that went into that game after 1.0 is immense. Yoshi P and the team really pulled through for everyone. It's great to see him involved with the development of FF16 as well!
mmorpgs have always been live service though thats the point of the game but they was made that way for an actual purpose rather than just for money these shooters that are considered live service or no different from old lan shooters other than you pay for upgrades or wait a really long time for upgrades. they turned a 30min shooter experience in to a 365 day experience for no reason other than to sell u upgrades. theres no extra social interaction amongst players like mmorpgs brought in
@@alaskanmalamute101 live service FPS be like, "Here's some update, but it's all microtransaction, though" Destiny, Warframe and Planetside (does this count as a live service?) are the one that's okay in my book
I think From Software sets a great example for other studios in the industry. More studios should use their blueprint for inspiration in how to evolve, because live service how it is now (in most cases) shouldn’t be the way it is AT ALL.
Fromsoft does a decent job of some aspects. If we're looking at a developer and a series that's been killing it with the content updates and support years after launch, it's IO Interactive and Hitman
@@BTBSOUNDS Hard agree! They’re another awesome example. I need to play those games again. I remember playing Blood Money as a kid and questioning my morality 😂
Yes, but even from software could update their model. I hate their coop and won't recommend a single one if their games until it is improved. I may be fine going through multiple hassles just to play with others, but my friends won't. And yes, I know their reasoning. The fact remains in my opinion their games would be amazing coop games with some tweaks to the formula
@@jamesford871 the main issue I'd say would be lack of content. Destiny 2 especially. I love the concept of the game but there isn't shit unless your paying every fucking season, dlc etc. The content is also drip fed that it isn't shit unless you wait about a month for everything to be available.
For me it mostly comes down to the opportunity cost of developing them. Time spent developing and maintaining these things I'll never play is time that could be spent on games I would play and enjoy. Then too, there are too many games for me to keep up as it is, so perhaps that's a blessing.
The thing is: Those who like it, already invested enough time into what they already play that only a major factor will make them switch. What's left are those curious about these sort of games, so the total ammount of avaiable public is tiny. Don't help the fact they're almost all low quality.
Don't remember the details but it goes something like: BioWare was forced into using the Frostbite engine for Anthem even though it was not intended for what they had in mind for Anthem. Then later during development that same person saw a demo and was unhappy with it and (next part copied verbatim from wikipedia) "ordered several senior members to fly to Stockholm, Sweden to discuss how to improve the game with EA DICE, Frostbite's creators". I'm sure there much more to the story, I'm just sure Falcon didn't *accidently* replace BioWare with DICE here.
I understand the sentiment, but these games live off of people's attention to them. Put simply, I just don't think most of these games are even worth remembering.
If I were to pick how live service games should be structured, I'd easily go for expansions rather than a battle pass. Why? Because with expansions, you get what your promised right then and there. You don't need to beat challenges to unlock them, you have them right there ready to go. I also feel like having free updates would make players feel less hesitant of buying these expansions. Like with Splatoon, you have free gear, weapons, and stages (as well as returning stages) being added for free. So, when they announce an expansion that includes updated older hubs and a new story mode, I don't mind shelling out the cash because the dev team have also given up free stuff on the side.
I actually do enjoy "forever games" like Warframe as well as more traditional MMO's like ESO, FF14 etc. I rarely ever finish most games anyway, I'm more interested in the journey, the progression than in actually seeing end credits. Always having new content to play, new things to grind for and new goals to set, is what gets me excited. I do still play more traditional games with defined endings, but I struggle to keep myself interested once the only thing left to do is "clean up and ending sequence".
I used to think that way too. Then you will get older and realize you only have so much time left in your life. Endless will become much less attractive.
@@Ted_BellThe opposite. I don't feel like completing anything because it feels mandatory. With live service games and can mess around and hope off whenever without feeling like I need to finish anything.
@@Hidden_lvlreally depends on the game though, if you're talking a multiplayer shooter where your full loop is an hour or less you technically "beat the game" in that hour, doesn't matter if you didn't look pretty or get that gun you wanted, you can still have experienced all you need to, but when you have a huge story or a full chapter you're missing because you failed to pay to get through your MC's revenge fantasy or missing entire minigames... It feels petty.
I think the defining factor here is the goal of the devs. As you said, if a dev makes a carrot on a stick, that's not going to work, and we see these games failing. However, when service is driven by the Game and not the market, we get some amazing games. WoW, Dota 2, Destiny 2 are great games from the development perspective. You can take the live service away and they will still be great games, because of mechanics, optimization, sandboxes, worlds, combat or other things. If you take the grind+market away and it's unplayable - it is going to fail. And they do. All the time.
The one reason everyone hates them, they’re designed to trap you into repetitive and boring gameplay and then convince you that you can buy your way out of Borden with skins. It incentives grooming players into spending money instead of making a good game that makes players WANT to spend money
Yeah there are some live service games that I have fun with. Like Fallout 76 and Halo Infinite. However I’m old-fashioned. I always want the full content of a game upfront. Not in puzzle pieces for the next 10 years. Plus I always prefer off-line games because it’s something that I can pause & have multiple save files(like Fallout 3,4,&NV).
@@devastatheseeker9967 OK let’s compare. Fallout 3, 4, & NV(launch date): yes a bit buggy(pretty much a feature when it comes to all Bethesda off-line games). However the vanilla Game has so much content that leaves you playing for months, even without DLC & Mods(I never use mods). In my first run of those games, I barely had any problems. My friends and I gave all three of those games high praise back then(as did many others that I met). Anthem: story is below average, has no replay value, The grind is so extreme(seriously The reputation grind is absurd), The Titans rarely spawn, and the bugs were WAY worse than the Bethesda engines(same goes for the loading screens. Ugh They were longer than all The fallout loading screens). And don’t get me started on Battlefield 2042.
@@Steel-101 okay now compare those games to cyberpunk 2077's launch and realise how fucking stupid you are for thinking live service games are any different quality wise. Live service games are great. Bad games are bad games regardless of the kind of game it is.
@devastatheseeker9967 No, you could play all those games from start to finish but they are generally buggy. Live service games don't even have a complete story, and they are buggy.
I'm surprised games like Overwatch 2 or CS:GO weren't mentioned, as far as initially being a paid game (for $30 / $15) to be later turned into a free-to-play game with micro-transactions.
I’ll never understand people who defend these type of games. All I hear that they can be fun, but at the end of the day they are more focused to take your cash than actually improving their game
It frustrates me when developer's release a game, and then constantly revamp it and tweak it (often unnecessarily so) but it can often have dramatic impacts and over time changes the entire experience. Back 4 Blood was constantly doing this in its early days, and most recently World War Z overhauled its weapon progression system making it a massive grind and a slap in the face to those who had already put the time in maxing everything out - back to square 1 you go.
I really enjoyed the Division and D2 for years. I also think there are games out there, like Outriders for example, that would've benefitted from being a live service. Studios need to keep them interesting and keep adding worthwhile content while not gating off newer players. It's just really hard to get right.
The Division series is one of the best live service games out there. Lots of ppl hate on it though because they had false expectations of it. It IS supposed to be a grindy, repetitive shooter "MMO" with gear progression not an immersive, story focused experience.
I just started a 3rd (4th?) playthrough of The Division 1 on Xbox, may go back to The Division 2 when I'm done & play through Warlords of NY again (had it on PS4 & finished it)! I bloody love those games!! The best "listen to a podcast & play" games ever created!! 🙂
@Exo Falz I was actually referring to The Division 2, not Destiny 2. I got put off of Destiny 2 for the exact reason I stated in my comment. I came into it after they'd already vaulted a ton of content. I was looking forward to starting at the beginning and playing through this giant story, but then I realized the content was no longer available. Uninstalled a few hours after. It felt like watching a series on Netflix and having to start at season 6.
@@YeOldeMachine Amen to that! Same reason I got out of Destiny 2...it felt like running a race, but I had to start at the Starting Line & everyone else got to start at the halfway mark?!
If everyone would hate them, they wouldn't make them. Just like with micro transactions and mobile phone games, which also "everyone" hates. Clearly there's a viable market for these things. 🤷♂️
All my favourite games are live service games. Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, Warframe. The best part of playing video games is playing them with my friends. As much as I loved GoW Ragnarok, that is a solo experience.
I dont hate the concept of a live service game, i hate what it represents. Greed, pure corporate greed. no longer is it enough to simply buy the game at full AAA price, theres now season passes and legendary editions and a million other ways to keep you hooked up to the milking machine. and even if you do pay for everything you still dont actually own the game, youre merely permitted to have it on your hard drive until the money runs dry and they shut the servers down. i still have a playstation and some games boxed away in my garage. games i bought over 20 years ago and they will stuff run if i set them up. and most of those games would be more entertaining than the garbage the AAA games industry comes out with these days. not as pretty, but far more engaging.
My issue is I have to keep paying to play. Just not a big fan of subscriptions unless its some membership that gets you some handy bonuses that isn't some sort of requirement to do well in the game. Kinda like something that roblox has, simple five dollar monthly membership that gets you a sum of in game money in month along with discounts on certain cosmetic items and possibly some in game bonuses. The last two benefits are also dependent on the creators of the items or games as well so its not even close to a majority of stuff, but enough for it to be a handy bonus if you like the game and play often.
but that is generally free to play game with a membership right? games that require a sub to play are typically just so much better then your typical free to play multipler game.
that is why live service games need what can make a ``normal`` game endless too which is replayability the fact that you can play something again and still have a blast this can work if the gameplay focuses on variaty, skill cieling and modes
If you're an adult who pays all their own bills and have to budget; Internet Bill, xbox live subscription or alternative bill for gaming consoles, Pay for the Game, plus game DLC/loot boxes, outfits. On and on, so much money going into entertainment. I had to cut back alot on gaming, mostly by finding new ways to mod games i already own and not endlessly buying new ones.
A good live service game you won't mind making it a part of your life for a year, it becomes a community of gamers. I think if a game achieves that and people make friends and bond over it, even if they give the company 20$ or 100$ a month if it makes them happy then I think that is positive for gaming as a whole. Because games are supposed to be social IMO.
Games started out as an extra form of entertainment which was a good description for most games. I honestly believe that multiplayer social side of gaming is nothing but a huge PITA as the communities are often filled with absolute clowns, just downright nasty people or cheaters. I do not know of one gaming community that is a great place to be a part of and I've been playing games for 40+ years at this point.
@@proffessorX As an almost exclusively solo player I have seen many great gaming communities, mostly around modding, Minecraft, Skyrim, Terraria, ARK. I do not agree that games are supposed to be social, but I do appreciate some of the communities that have formed around my favorite games. As for communities of competitive gamers in online games, no idea, I avoid them like the plague because I bet they're horrible, people can be the worst
@@AlabasterJazz I think that's just because you're not social. Nothing's wrong with that, per se, but I disagree on the statement that games are "not supposed to be social". Going by that, competitive sports in general like basketball wouldn't even be a thing. If you haven't found a good community of competitive gamers, you simply weren't looking for it. Fighting game communities are practically the "gymbros" of gaming, for example. There are plenty of Discord servers hosting custom matches of their favorite games between the members just for the fun of it. There are games that can be played by your lonesome, and that's great. I love them too. But to disregard social games is downright silly. The history of games dates to the ancient human past. Games are an integral part of all cultures and are one of the oldest forms of human social interaction. Games like chess didn't survive all these years and centuries just because they can be fun. The social aspect between the players are what kept it going to this day. Same goes for games like fighting games, which when you break down to its very core, is no different than chess, really.
@RunBaa I do agree with what you're saying, there is definitely a social aspect to a lot, if not most, games. But if a game has no social element but has all of the other factors that make it a game, it is still a game. For sports you have things like gymnastics, or rock climbing, or running/swimming, which of course can be competitive, but can also be enjoyed entirely solo. Just so for games. Games can be designed, and done well, with no element of sociability built in. So games are not inherently social, but there is definitely a social aspect to many games. I'm sure both types are as ancient as each other, and both as endearing to groups of people for many reasons. My greater point, is even as reclusive as I am, also with 40+ years of gaming, there are some great communities of gamers, they're not all toxic, for instance even this channel has it viewers, and that is part of a "gaming community" that is pretty awesome
@@proffessorX amen. The only good gaming community IMHO is outside the games, through in-person connections and events over games, or even online fan communities. But guilds, multiplayer, etc... Not the easiest place to find lasting meaningful friendships.
My primary reason is Constant pressure of Fear Of Missing Out. these games are made that you have to play all the time. But you have X amount of time & the cool stuff requires alot of time. And if you do not play= you wont get it in the future. This strain turns me off in investing in a live action game. WOWS, war thunder, Call of duty. I quitted them all. Only Fo76 remains my OCCASIONAL live action fun
The phrase "For every Destiny there is several anthems" is gold, because there are actually more than 1 destiny, and both are still being played, personally, for me, Destiny more than a game is now a lifestyle, my 2 best friends are friends that I made playing Destiny 1 back in the Xbox 360 and we became IRL friends and we talk daily and yes we are aware of the ways Destiny works because we have been here since the beta. It's hard to love a game like this, it's hard to live in a live service game, but sometimes, in rare cases, it pays off to play those games.
I really wouldn't say that it "pays off". You managed to make some friends and have good times, you can easily do that and also not be hooked on a trashy live service game.
When I first played marvel's avengers, I didn't know what live service is, the grind was fun at first, but after a while... it's just a repeat for gear, numbers - a job! I will never touch another one!
I play Warframe personally. Live service is painful at times, when my internet connection is bad. Also it sucks that we have "Hosts" and the first player to start the mission is the host. Ping varies, depending on their internet connection, yours and the ping limit that you have set in the settings. The game is great, but the "Host migrating" process makes me want to cry and many players would be grateful if we just entered a server instead of hosting for one another. I would be very happy if we could play offline if we choose solo (It's something you can choose in the game) and change to multiplayer when you feel like it, or when you need help with a mission.
Great points on this list. I know gamers get a bad rap for being needy and too hard to please, but the GAAS model has to be the worst iteration the industry has been through and justifies most gamers issues. Also, your editor slipped up at 09:54 , should be a BioWare logo there.
I agree with your points and even just a few of these are enough factors to put me off them. I don't really see most live services as games, they are money makers, nothing more. The only ones I see with any real value are the ones that started and became successful before 'liiivvveee services' became a mainstream thing.
You nailed it Falcon. Every point you raised is exactly why I avoid live service games. The main one being I don't want to have to keep paying for a game that I've already paid $90.00 for. Yes, in Australia most new games cost around $80-$90. Another reason is I like games that eventually end. I want to lose myself in a good story with good characters that I know is going to have an ending. Also, I don't want to be always online just to play. That's the dumbest idea ever. I've never played or bought a live service game in my life and I never will.
As soon as you make friends in a game like that, you're in trouble. You find yourself playing just because of friendships and not because the games are enjoyable lol.
In October I started playing these awesome mobile game Warhammer Tacticus. In 5 months I played EVERY DAY for 2-3 hours and it was fun but finally I decide after few attempts to let it go. It's felt soooo good when you free your mind from bad habit like that when you play a game few times a day as energy/resources are ready (including 1st thing after waking up). Nobody commented mobiles in that topic but I believe they are important segment of Live Service Games. Being a gamer for about 30 years one of the lessons I learn is - if game steal to much of your time, make you nervous, toxic or in other way to reacting differently on regular - You MUST take a brake or quit it.
I actually liked Ubisoft’s approach to a semi-live service model with AC Odyssey. They had a blog where every month they’d detail what was coming to the game via updates like bug fixes, free content and paid dlc part of the season pass. They went above and beyond with it, offering free skin packs to redeem, more free quests than they originally promised that were surprisingly high quality for their standards, and even quality of life features like transmog. Best part was the lack of monetisation for the most part, not including the gear store. That was the last time I’ve seen them meaningfully care about a game post launch with great communication
Personally my favorite live service game that I've put a lot of time into is Deep Rock Galactic. It is very simple but in my opinion done right live service.
@@stanislavkimov2779 Couple special cosmetic dlcs are the only thing and any extras from their "Performance/Battle Pass" which is free just goes into the in-game extra event challenges to get.
@@stanislavkimov2779 Well yeah I guess. They have their pretty regular updates and weekly events as well as challenges. Definitely check out a couple of videos on it if you have a chance.
It's actually not a live service game. There are no servers (it's all peer to peer), and the only paid-for content is some specific themed cosmetic DLC.
Vermintide 2 is a very good live service game from a fairly small game developer. It had free and paid updates and has had consistent updates and fixes. It actually launched in a really good state too.
We Asian-Pacific only have smartphone and internet towers,now the cable telephone ☎️ line is outdated,no one is used telephone lines in the village anymore.
Thank you for bringing this up. I see more and more new players to video games who don't know how much nicer it is to pay for a full game than get sucked into blowing thousands, even tens of thousands on a single game over years.
I loved Destiny when it first came out. I LIVED inside of that game lol. Now, I tried going back and didn't recognize it. I didn't even know where to go, or where to begin lol. It all felt like end game content, or the content left over after the main game lol. I played a the way through the fallen king, or taken King, and after that it felt like everything was over. Which makes me sad just talking about it, but supposedly it's still going strong lol.
I've been working in Live Service games in mobile for the past 3 years, and I am really looking forward to a change of paradigm. Shall we brainstorm on how to change it?
@@adad87821 That would be the goal but then, how do we monetise the game, realistically? Players won't purchase premium games on mobile anymore, seeing how many high quality games are there for free :)
My live service game is Warframe. Mostly because it was free and hasn't disappointed me yet. I never felt like I had to spend money in the game, but I have mostly because I wanted to and felt like I should give something to the developers for giving me such a fun game to play
I was an early adopter and I loved warframe for the longest time! Something happened along the way though, and I can’t quite put a finger on it. I fell off of it and I’m genuinely sad about that.
Truly think the model can be successful, even more so than we’ve seen if it’s balanced properly. I think the main problem is the whole setup is kinda like accidentally discovering a money glitch. You say you’ll “just do it once” but before you know it you’ve got time limited weapon skins and $10 exp booster kits.
I think live services will be like mmo's. Just like the wow clones died, the fortnite and destiny clones are buried and people stay away from the genre for a while. But one day people will learn lessons from the old live services and make new and far superior ones, just like we are seeing with mmo's.
Just incase, As the video said, Live service is selling an idea that it will get better as *MORE* I repeat as *MORE* people throw money at it. Than just selling an offline game with 40~60 hour campaign,etc that has an end. I'd say your money was already well worth it, the end. The problem with these publishers, they hire many people that are not devs like mid-managers or psychologist to exploit consumer engineering, etc. managers, mid-managers, CEO's that doesn't contribute no quality to the game, they even make games worse by pushing deadlines and placing MTX and live service/online only.
@@MangaGamified Disagree to some degree. I think it’d be foolish to pretend like the Live Service model isn’t being abused by publishers, but I do think if handled the right way, you could create a game that didn’t feel like it was pushing micro transactions down your throat while supplementing an episodic story through seasons similar to a tv show. I truly believe the model is being criticized too much while the publishers are the ones who are taking advantage of it. That being said, there are also fundamental problems with current games falling into this model like the always online bs where we will lose thousands of hours of progress at any moment when they discontinue server support.
I played COD years ago like back in 2007ish and enjoyed the game, haven't played since. So I tried buying COD Modern warfare 2 and purchased a few operators. After realizing I couldn't use those operators offline, I quickly bought the refund bundle after. They really think online is the way to go.
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I feel like live service games get a bad rep because of all the failed ones. Live service games can work and can be fun. I've been a Destiny gamer for years and still play it, albeit not as much as I used to. Division had two good games, and there are others. I just feel that these games are harder to make and keep players playing, and too many studios don't put in the work to create a lasting product, but just want the continuous money flow of one.
Deep Rock Galactic is a good example of a live service game done right. A fleshed out world with a strong community drawn in by a passionate team hell bent on building an experience to enjoy and not a lucrative business model.
Alll the extra stuff is done so well people WANT to give them money. They released a cosmetic dlc and it hit top 5 dlc on steam. FOR SKINS. People are just that thankful about DRG
Yeah but it's still live service for the express purpose of making people spend money. Just because a game is enjoyable doesn't make it any less predatory
Not to mention that you’ll likely spend far more than the price of a normal game throughout the lifetime of the live service game only for it to be shut down one day and you literally cannot access it anymore. Not (always) the case with normal games.
I am heading towards not buying any new games ever again and it's hard as I have played games throughout my life and I still find new games with interesting premises. However, with that said, I am so against this idea that once you buy a game you apparently do not own that copy which I believe is illegal in a number of countries especially France due to strong consumer market laws I think that until this system is changed I will no longer support these companies that are making live service games.
the 80s to early 2000s had the best games for a reason; no DLC, little need for the internet, to play with others you invite people and if they suck in some way you kick them out of your home or give them the shitty controller, the game was in full the moment you got no need to get other parts, and any extras you wanted would be in next game or you could use creation suite.
One of the better live service games is Genshin Impact. 3 years of constant and improvement of quality and an ongoing story that develops year over year. We all know its going to end sometime and the experience of years of gaming will be good.
@@AlejandrXZD I literally quit Genshin around 2-3 days after Sumeru released because I just couldn’t take it anymore. Did they add anything of *real* substance or it is just yet another big zone that is tedious to explore and chests that give pointless rewards along with ridiculously trivial fights?
@@flariz4824 if you dont like open worlds thats on you m8. Sumeru is by far the best zone for now, it has a whole desert, bosses and deep lore. And the archon quest made me and other people sentimental. The music is top notch and the new characters are a blast. It is an open sandbox, if you dont like exploring that doesnt make the game bad or tedious.
@@AlejandrXZD I quite literally had all previous zones pre-sumeru 100%’d and I liked it (For the most of the part). It is not an open world problem it is a content issue. Past a certain point there is no real incentive to explore on Genshin. Rewards are almost the same as what you get on Monds. You put a lot of work on figuring out a puzzle so when you finally get it right, you get... some trash fodder and maybe a blue artifact... when your inventory is filled with dozens and dozens of gold ones? Well thanks???!! It makes the whole exploring experience static and dull... I was expecting some actual improvements on the exploration or combat or... anything really but it’s just more of the same.
Games like Deep Rock Galactic use live service to make the game 19x better each game. Avengers and Halo Infinite used it to excuse predatory monetization and releasing unfinished, saying, “oh, oh, don’t worry! It’ll be fixed in a year!”
@@gameranxTV I love that your reply was changed from pointing to mine to pointing to the bot now above you lol. UA-cam’s doing poorly at handling bots, much like Valve in tf2
I'm not a fan of live service games usually but if I'm interested in a specific game I'll try it out. Like sucide squad kills the justice league I am interested in the story the cutscenes look good the graphics look awesome the character designs look really good. And I like the voice acting
This video truly shows my main concerns for D4, especially the points on connectivity. Still excited to play it, because the game itself seems great... but sheesh it sucks that it is always online with at least the potential of constant gamespam marketing... (Paying $70-100 for a game... and still being spammed with shop advertisements is a real concern for me at least)
Does Genshin Impact qualify as a live service game? 🤔 Really wish Falcon gives his take on that game one day. Although I no longer put money into it, I've put enough to ensure I play that game until the end. Already AR 60 and still going.
@@TheReZisTLust that's western simplification at its finest. So lemme ask : Are chicken and duck eggs viewed & sold in the same basket at the same rate , Just cause it's laid by birds? answer me this and don't deviate.
@@TheReZisTLust still waiting on the answer since it's FAIR that u reply to my earlier one which was a reply to urs when u pinged me. Don't u think so?
I think the thing I hate the most in live service games is battle passes...As a casual gamer who doesn't have an infinite amount of time to spend of every game I own, I rarely EVER make it to the final tier of any battle pass and I always end up feeling cheated out my money. Like it honestly feels like I spent money only to get NOTHING in return. I'm sorry but I just don't understand why Halo Infinite is the only game to have battle passes that never expire. It absolutely blows my mind that this is even a thing
It’s a disgusting player retention practice to increase fomo and pressure you into playing their game only. Killed Overwatch for me and that was my favorite multiplayer game last gen.
Holy crap!!! I haven’t vacuumed my dog yet today. Thanks for reminding me, Falcon!! I agree I’ve been playing Destiny since day one, I still use my day one Warlock from D1 in D2 to this day. I’ve bought every expansion and even if it was the only game I played I still wouldn’t be able to keep up with it. It’s like a chore now, TBH.
They forgot the fact that live service games can just shut down any time they want and everything you paid/worked for just disappear with no guarantee of a refund.
NBA 2k. Every year you grind for VC or just straight up buy it to effectively rent your Myplayer and their gear for a year or two. I hate that
@@jordanbomb32 Yeah it would be better if VC transferred between all NBA 2K games
It is also for this reason I hate single player games that force online connectivity. Servers can shut down and then I'd lose access to what I paid for. Pretty scummy if you ask me.
Live service games are the socialism of entertainment - they keep going until they run out of other peoples money.
@@jordanbomb32 I just found this out the other day. I redownloaded 2k20 my guy was maxed out and I payed for VC(only one I’ve ever paid into) and I couldn’t even play my single player. I knew the street was gone but I didn’t know you lost your character. It really makes it to I’m never buying 2k again.
The problem is that the focus of Live Service Games has changed as time has passed. Previously, the concept was that developers could expand the work already done by adding new things for players to do during the active period. Nowadays, updates and DLCs serve to complete the game, not expand it.
Hear hear. The ideal concept of a "Live Service Game" or "Games as a Service" is that the game you ship with is already complete, and then you support it with additional content to keep players going. Such a game will also typically be a multiplayer game, with either coop or PvP elements, in order to create a social bond that keeps players in the game.
The problem is that monetization has become the core objective of Live Services instead of fun gameplay, where "player engagement" statistics are considered vital in order to entrap players through the grind. Instead of a game where you spend time in it because it's fun, you're forced to spend time in it just to get to the fun part.
exactly, I love the idea of live service, but it's so often just sell you stuff while they try to maybe add stuff before people quit.
The problem is they fell in love with the idea of an infinite money machine. Instead of starting with a good game and using the live service to add new things to it, they start with monetization strategies and then build a minimum viable product around those strategies, hoping it'll be enough to hold player's attention while they implement their "road map" of expansions/improvements over time.
@@randomstuff-qu7sh exactly but even for the whales have money, if there is two games that i could spend 500$'s in, as I'm already putting 500$'s in one, I'm eitehr only playing one, or I'm putting 250-350 in each, they don't magicly make a ton of money from me.
PLUS if all you have to offer me is spending money but little else I'm not doing even that. I put a lot of money into marvel heroes because it was A) fun and B had alot of stuff and ways to get things for free, that made spending money every so often worth it. It got bad near the end, but for the longest time it was a great example of how to do a live service.
Nah, that was just the lie they used to tell to sell them. It was never true.
I love it that we can collectively agree that IT SUCKS when a Live Service model is shoehorned into what should've been a tidy, single player game.
HELLO 👋 I JUST FARTED 🤣🤣🤣
@@OnePieceGuy55 me too, man. I was proud of this one.
*cough. Fallout 76. The map is just beautiful and fun to explore but little to no story.
RIP Anthem.
hitman
I didn’t have internet for a long time. Growing up in a rural area. Not until I was 18. When Destiny dropped I was no longer able to keep up with my friends when it came to video games. I subsequently started feeling left out in conversation and they weren’t interested in playing split screen or party games with me anymore. It really sucked and overtime I’ve let go of my jealousy of Destiny because it is a good game but I have always hated games as a service.
When Jake or Falcon would mention that not everyone had good internet it always made me feel like I hadn’t been forgotten.
I feel similar as a gamer in a rural area with awful internet. I'm glad someone at least acknowledges our situation.
yesss im not alone in this regard! on the other hand, i was blessed with good internet from time, but i refuse to partake in anything online based! couch co-op or single player only! ok ok i admit its pretty much single player life mostly for me but i like it that way! also something about the lack of friends or humans in general to socialize with.... my generalized Millennial problems......
This is one of the points i was making about the Xbox One in general. If you don’t have internet the machine will not do anything. People’s response, just take it to a library or a friend’s house and download the update there. Forget to download the blu-ray player app? Too bad.
Nowadays, i think about COD Warzone and people who have download caps. There are places where you can be limited to a few hundred GB of data that come through. Warzone had 40GB daily downloads for a while. Screw those people am i right?
Destiny vet here I finally let go of it because I felt like of what I paid for was not content that they was putting out overall it was time for me to play other games and catch-up on my everlasting games I put on my backlog because I devoted so much time to destiny 1 and 2 although I don’t play it anymore I still check out UA-camr who still play it from time to time
These days soo many people are completely reliant on the internet. There are a lot of good games I've missed out on due to lack of usable internet. And there's streaming, etc. Some people just don't get it. Why do I have CD's? A collection of movies? Why do you need that much storage on your phone/device? Why have you not seen your old friends in years? I can't even find the words right now. Without the internet there's a lot of people who be lost and miserable and they would have to rebuild themselves in order to even function. The internet is great. But it can also turn into a drug that twists people and causes pain.
Thank for making this video. This sentiment is gaining momentum. Developers DO pay attention to Trends, though this is the more of a paradigm shift.
🤝
Sometimes develpers dont have a choice as they're told. "Just do whats popular" and lose creative freedoms.
It’s also tiring having games with multiple currencies. You want to buy item x, so you buy a currency, then you find out that item is bought with a different currency. On top of that, how many live service games have shut down? A lot of them say they have this 10 year plan and only last a year or two.
The whole ten year plan thing is more of a projection. Once the playerbase falls and keeps falling, they cut it off indefinitely, even if they're choosing into working on anything for those ten years.
They do that multiple currency thing explicitly to make the mental math for working out what's good value all but impossible. Makes it much harder to remember just how much money you paid and for what.
When i see a game do that i immediately uninstall it because its clear evidence the people in charge of it are happy to prioritise every tiny profit squeeze they can IN SPITE of our known desire not to be squeezed. Like they saw their players having an unpleasant time with oppressive monetisation and instead of going "maybe we should stop this" they went "how can we subvert these people's will and trick them into doing what we want anyway?" And that, frankly, makes me sick
Absolutely spot on about the elusive nature of satisfaction in these games. Their aim is to keep your attention captured to continuely monitise you, similar to social media - not to satisfy you or enrich your life.
Similar to drug dealing. Gaming addiction is real. WAKE UP
They are simply Cyber Jobs.
The reason why they aren't fun, is becouse they won't reach what Games are for actually: "Relax, Sit down, chill"
To be fair though, they're mostly competitive games. I come from a fighting game background, and in those games, the satisfaction comes from getting better beating your (human) opponent. Same with most games as a service games.
@@jonathoncook8367 Anything can be twisted and perverted for selfish purposes, gaming is not immune to this. it wasn't always like this though, there was a time when playing a game was on par with reading a book. You did it for pure escapist fun but then moved on once It was over. It did not consume all your time and money like they are trying to do now.
💯💯💯
The fact that one of the changes from Overwatch 1 - 2, is that when you log in, instead of immediately having the play button be selected, what's selected is the third option down...the store.
You log into the game expecting to play a game and instead they shout in your face "buy something!". God I do not miss that game.
Edit: I'm talking about the console version (specifically ps4), you have no mouse so just have to flick between the menu options.
Live service games are just playable cash shops.
@@mr.s9783 i laugh at your “playable” lmaoo
Lol this is just objectively false. The game does not do that, you're actualy straight up lying.
@@zc8673 except it's not, I checked just yesterday and I was in fact correct. Maybe it's only the PS4 version of the game but I would doubt that.
@@kempolar9768 could be console only. PC has a mouse, so nothing would be pre-selected.
Wow im glad someone has encompased my entire feelings on gaming in abiut 10 minutes. I hope exects listen to this. We need companys to run correctly again. Its not the devs or writers. Trust me. Noone wants to see there artistic works become a money hungry monster. Especially since the artist usually gets the shaft from the beginning.
The power is in our hands actually.
They continue cuz we give em money
if the majority just said " no we aren't going to pay for this trash until you actually deliver " that'll change their behavior real quick
if everyone just banded together to fight this we could have left live service in the gutter years ago.
I completely stopped playing those games after realising how much time I spent in one when I was leader of a guild. Full-time job indeed.
And now, I play a ton of different games and actually have fun finishing them!
Really like your "special" videos where you simply talk about different things happening right now in the industry. I personally don't care about live service games and simply ignore them. I remember only one time when I found this topic relevant to my life (If you can even count it), and it was when Rockstar said they will stop adding new content to RDR2 online, probably because it wasn't as popular as GTA 5 online is
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@@gameranxTV btw, when you go on to talk about Anthem, at one point you mention it was made by respectful developers, and a giant "DICE" logo appears. I thought the game was made by BioWare
I played Destiny almost every day from 2014 to 2019. Let me tell you, when you finally break yourself free from a mediocre live service, the last thing you want is to play another one.
was destiny always live service? back in 2014 you had to buy the game(I still have that physical copy. it wasn't until shadowkeep where it went free and went live service right? I stopped after beyond light simply because I couldn't keep up with it any.ore
I still play D2 and I'm still having fun with it. The gameplay is satisfying, the buildcrafting is fun and grinding for new and better gear is addictive. I still think they handle the live-service aspect better than most. That said, Lightfall's campaign was extremely mid and I can't really recommend it. I just think D2 is not a good example. A better example of pisspoor live-service is Halo Infinite
@@MythicAce218 Destiny has always been a live service game with constant updates, quality of life changes, guaranteed expansion content every year or so, ever since 2014. That fits the criteria for a Live Service model
@@Pwedict that's what a live service game is? I always thought live service games were like final fantasy 14 where you pay monthly or yearly to play the game. I feel like an idiot
@@MythicAce218 Nah, you’re not an idiot. Think of Destiny / Destiny 2. They’re constantly updated, but they have this “expansion” every year, which is effectively a subscription if you want to be caught up on all the new stuff. So live service models differ, but what they have in common is that there’s usually a paywall to new stuff with all those types of games
Live service games focus on extracting more money while giving gamers a bad or average game.
HI 👋 I JUST FARTED 😂😂😂
@@OnePieceGuy55 same
What is a live service game?
all I know is multiplayer or single player
They don't even give us bad or average, they give us nothing. At least back in the day there were bad games but you could tell they at least tried. Now there's no love in the games anymore.
When I saw the title to this video I thought: "Does anyone really need this explained to them?"
Then I realized that yes, the publishers need this drilled into their minds.
You can explain this to them all day, every day, but until the majority stops investing in those games, they will not, and cannot change! Their executives will not let them deviate until the money is not there.
Go look at the top like 20 games in terms of revenue. They are pretty much all live service games. Hate to break it to you but you are the minority. People play the shit out of live service games and they aren't going to stop because you don't like them.
drilled what? more money for no work? sounds great to me
Obviously there are gamers who don't get it. If nobody was playing these games, they wouldn't be making them. Stupid people enable publishers to make this crap. How can you blame the publishers for doing their job and finding ways to make the most money for the least amount of work? They'd be negligent if they weren't taking advantage of the fools that spend money on this garbage.
@@imnotmike*stupid gamers
The frustrating thing about the Live Service games I've played a lot (Anthem, Avengers) is that there were great game mechanics and great moments in the games.
But they weren't built upon and got repetitive and uber-grind heavy VERY quickly.
I played the campaign of Avengers and enjoyed it. I tried playing the Hawkeye and Black Panther expansions when they released, but it just didn't feel quite as good. Also the gear system didn't make much sense for a Superhero game, especially considering there was gear for the Hulk. Most of the "new" characters were also just copies of old ones, which wasn't super exciting.
@@timotheninja the Wakanda expansion was ok except for the final boss. Cheap as hell.
Also didn't like the whole sonic and vibranium damage types they tried to introduce. Made it overly complicated.
I just kinda contributed Hulk's great to "adaptations." Gotta do something to apply it, right?
I think the only reason why Destiny and Warframe work as a live service is because Bungie and Digital Extremes only work on those games. 100% of the studios support them. Investing in a live service froma giant corporation is risky because they can afford to scrap the project after 6 months if they don't turn a profit.
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@@gameranxTV 👌
@@pisse3000 🤟
My favorite part of gaming has been the part after finishing a great game and sitting there wrapping it all up in my head remembering the great parts and sometimes even wondering “what do I do now?” Because it was that much of an experience that I now feel empty lol. Live service games just make me feel like I’m walking through mud to reach points of fun or accomplishment that are going to become irrelevant next patch lol.
Very well said you read my thoughts exactly.
New game plus on max difficulty
That screams destiny 2
Oh man, I had that feeling when I finished the Mass Effect trilogy for the first time.
@@lucianwong420 Same. That is what really makes a game/series stand out in my mind. If you have a minor existential crisis after finishing a game, you know it was good lol.
I feel as if it kind of prevents you from experimentation with things like mods and also prevents you from enjoying the game without a internet connection
As well as the occasional mix of microtransactions for useless skins
HELLO 👋 I JUST FARTED 🤣🤣🤣
IKR it's like you just bought a game that you don't actually own...
...now imagine if your internet was satellite (or worse)!
You said it perfectly!
I missed so many good games for like 2 years because I was to busy playing one stupid game and didn't want to be left behind
Completely addicted
I'll never play another ever again
The worst part of live service games is when they just stop working because the devs are done. Dragalia Lost was one of my favorite games of all time, and when Nintendo shut it down, it just disappeared. All that time and money poofed away with nothing to show for it. I can't even hop in and do any solo fights for fun anymore, even though it had an extremely robust single player experience. It's hard to feel invested in a live service game knowing it could all be taken from you on a whim.
Falcon knows! Falcon is a good bird! The thing that I love all these years that I watch Gameranx is that these guys will really tell you what is going on,no bs, just pros and cons,all in your face for you to decide. Keep up the good work lads
Oh please! They roll out BS all the time, & everyone knows its old man Falcon that hates LSGs because they're full of really capable & seriously sweaty gamers & Falcon just wants to chill and play single player games. Nothing wrong w/that, but if "everyone" hates LSGs, why is everyone playing them? Maybe that's why they're hated, because they're fucking loved deeply by literally hundreds of millions of people. And I'm old, so this isn't an age thing. I started gaming only 5 years ago for a disability & the only stuff could get into was Fortnite & Destiny, which was unfortunate because I sucked & they're both high skill games, but I sweat my ass off & now I've got KD ratios in both games that a teen could brag about.
@@JeighNeither what is with you and sweat? I feel like there is an underlying repressed issue here homie....and no I don't want to talk about it, ew.
Indeed. Falcon is the Vegeta to Jake's Goku.
Good bird? But birds aren’t real.
@@JeighNeither you have may have sucked when you started, but did you have fun?
Honestly, a good live-service game in my opinion is Final Fantasy 14. It has a good amount of frequent updates that are always available and tend to be valid at all times, and the developer has told the community that they don't have to play the game. Generally, he has said that FOMO isn't something to be concerned about with FF14, just come back when you want to. And the community is some of the best in the business. Everyone is so incredibly helpful, kind, and sometimes goofy. It isn't hard, at all, to find a good clan of kind-hearted people who just wanna have fun. I've noticed that you don't even need to look for them, they'll come to you within a few hours! And every update is part of a continuing story that never gets gated with later updates. The base game (A Realm Reborn) is just as relevant to a player as the latest expansion and patch. It's just a great experience!
I know this a game I am definitely a fan of, its my all time favorite live service game.Its all you said and more.
Ff14 is one of thouse games that got fixed to a playable state after 1.0 and coming on the the game around the hevensward expansion I have been happy with the main story so far and I have played through endwalker as well yoshi p is doing a good job with it
Game is good but it has subscription on top of having a cash shop and you still need to pay for the game itself and expansions.
@@lstsoul4376 you don't need anything in the cash shop doofus, and it's a gigantic mmo just like 11... of course it has a subscription, you know to pay for the servers... and further development...
@@Azhrei2000 There’s ton of f2p games without any subscription so your last sentence doesn’t make sense.
I don’t see any problem is purchasing the game and maybe its expansion, but I won’t play it because of the monthly fee which I disagree
For me, my major issue is the "copy and paste" elements. A lot of live service games are essentially the same games with a different skin and maybe some different mechanic that "makes them different"
If it's not a PvP focused game (and sometimes even then) you gotta have some kind of central lobby area so you can see all the randoms in one place... mostly so that you can see them opening lootboxes and getting fancier stuff than you.
Examples?
@@odst2247half of br games.
every FIFA ever since FUT was introduced
@@odst2247 Cod ww2 and fortnite. COD literally let you open loot mid lobby infront of everyone incentivesing players to buy crap. And fortnite is a living add
I'm surprised we don't get coverage of Deep Rock Galactic. It's a live service, but is much more fair with monetization using cosmetic DLC at fair prices. It also has supporter packs for those who like to splurge. All to get regular updates on what's already an amazing base game with great base game content and unlocks.
I feel like the biggest problem with them is the way it affects kids and parents/grandparents who don’t follow games.
About 3-4 years ago my nephew was obsessed with the OG of problems, Fortnite. He would play online and get mad when people would give him a hard time about skins.
He convinced his mom to put her card onto his ps4 so he could put $10 down for the battle pass each season.
Well my sister-in-law didn’t know enough about these types of games to understand the risk. After the battle pass didn’t cover all the skins he began making small charges one after the other until he’d charged over $200 on skins within a month.
This is my biggest problems with anything that has an online transaction. I can say no and not lose any sleep, kids can’t always.
sounds more like your sister's fault, also better off just sitting kids down and telling them they can't have every little thing they see, or maybe she should have actually playing with her kid, doesn't take very long (as long the fortnite's store isn't just littered with everything that isn't needed). Sorry just parents really need to pay more attention to these things heck could has easily put a password on the card in the store.
Even the "good ones" are bad - they are MADE to be addictive, I was one such addict till I cut it out of my life and I am NEVER going back
People don't necessarily hate live service games, especially when they're done well. They hate the fact that every game is turning into a live service game, even when they don't need to be.
This exactly.
I hate both
@@Loctorak that is you, there are plenty of diamonds in the rough such as Final Fantasy 14.
I think the simple answer is the range of quality between each "service".
In most cases the range of quality is so inconsistent and if you're not 100% invested or ready to waste money, then its generally less fun than most "non-service" games.
Great video, Falcon. If there is to be a follow up, I'd like to see a discussion on what live-service games actually seem to do well. Warframe is a good example and part of the reason, at least for me, is that the base game is free. You can put money into it, but there is a lot you can do without sinking a dime into it. Admittedly, I don't have much time invested and in between when I first started playing when it was new and now, a ton has been added (almost too much for my taste) but I still have yet to pay for anything.
Thanks for your suggestion
The game has enough to entertain you for years if you don't rush it like a lot of veterans who now complain cuz there's nothing to do.
Just play with a slow or normal pace and trust me you'll be very satisfied.
I know from experience, been playing since 2014
I still have things to farm, get and test out in that game
Every moment is precious to me.
@@whysoserious4274 This is true. I was a fairly early adopter but stepped away from it for a while. When I was last there, it was worlds different from my previous visit, but there is still a lot to explore (I remember when the boss, The Jackal, was a new addition.)
@@thejackal007 yep Warframe has gone through many changes and most of it has been positive.
Deserves more love than some other free to play games ( looking at you genshin )
The Witcher 3 is one of the greatest games I have ever played, my favorite part about it is that it does a good job of really immersing you into being a Witcher with all of the hunts and side missions, but with that in mind, I like to explore everything, ever nook and cranny, and with the way I enjoy the game it’s a 500-1000 hour game and I just don’t have that time to put into it . I never thought I’d see a game with such a large quantity of quality content and actually have that be my one and only issue with the experience, am I crazy for this.
I don't hate the concept of love service, I hate that devs use it as an excuse to release half finished products.
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Love service does sound kinda noice!
Agreed
Then you hate the concept....
@@jonwayne6341 No, I don't. If a company released a complete game then spread the additional content out I wouldn't mind.
There was a live service game I was playing, and actually liked.
I got the error that pretty much meant my account save was broken,
meaning everything was gone.
And I was like,
YES!
I don't have to play this game anymore!
People love content. We want more constantly. Whether that's dlc, expansions, new games, or mods. It doesn't matter. What matters is how it's released, how it's monetized, and if you can't play if you're not online.
I feel like that absolute WORST aspect of these games is the "Always online" or "online only" aspect. IT. IS. AWFUL... It's the worst, ever...
@@drinnerd8532 It's should be a law these days, but sadly lawmakers these days are still boomers / semi-boomers that knows nothing about games, maybe in 30~40 years where everyone was born with internet or cellphone, they'll put laws for these kind of games.
I used to play a ton of hours in some games like these, the division 2, destiny 1 and 2, a sizable amount of hours in animal crossing new horizons, rocket league. I also tried genshin impact about a year ago and in the short time I played it, in terms of actual gameplay, I didn’t feel like I was having fun in the world and stopped playing. I think I’m forgetting a few more live service games that I admittedly endlessly spent too much time on. These days I like to mostly play games that are purely single player and maybe some games that have a solo campaign and online mode. Just having a ending to a otherwise good game can make it at least worth while, depending on the game and who made and published it
Genshin being a gacha is a curse.
you can't deny it's success and reputation sure but it's all because of the gacha system in place and it's not kind at all.
I'm more of a Warframe person
At least every character on there is not in a gacha and can be unlocked free
It just requires a little grinding and even the special currency in the game is farmable which gets you exp or credit boosters and a lot of cosmetics to try on your Warframe, your ship and your weapons.
It's a much better game
And it has a story too that is also developing and the lore is huge if you take the time to understand it
Very beautiful game in my opinion.
Idk
If you have the time you should give it a try if you haven't already
I have feeling you won't be disappointed.
@@whysoserious4274 in fact played some Warframe before. I first got into it on PS4 in 2019, but that was 3 or 4 years ago so I don’t know if I made some or barely any progress at all on my character. I tried to get back into playing the game last year and idk why I didn’t invest some time into the story. The characters just seem sort of confusing to know who’s who, but imo it’s much better than Destiny 2 in terms of overall player experience. Regarding Destiny 2’s recent expansion, Lightfall, even it’s somewhat good (besides the awful story from what I’ve heard) I’m not really as much of a Destiny 2 player when the Forsaken expansion came out than I am now to care let alone play all the way to the end. Anyway, those are my thoughts on live service games and the like (I guess I can consider Warframe a exception as a consistently good game) so have a good day or night
@@rurio3723 it's all good I understand.
Warframe's story is strange if you don't know where to start
You have to read about it a lot to be able to understand what it is the tenno do and why they do it.
Some of the story quests tell the more important parts but you won't understand those important parts if you don't read on the smaller parts.
I'm not forcing playing the game I just mean like Warframe is there if you run out of options on what to play
it won't mess around with you
You know what you are getting
And the game is a lot more fun with people mainly friends
You can kick back, crack a cold one, blast some music or a podcast and enjoy your Warframe builds or some relaxing farming in the open world planets and all can be done at your pace
You're not racing anybody to be the best or to stay up to date.
Been playing the game since 2014 and there's still a lot I do in the game and I still find ways to get entertained and get distracted.
Well anyway I've said my piece
You have a good day too.
@@whysoserious4274 plenty of people do prefer open world games, and plenty more are able to play without spending money.
I feel like more should be spoken about the addictive element of live service games! It's a constant chase and can be very damaging if it reaches the wrong people.
They definitely know that too, it’s almost like they hope that’s what happens
Loot boxes is gambling
@@Ohmanwhyyourfeelingshurt this and gacha 👍
I started playing Fortnite a little before covid and I had spent 6 MONTHS in the game over 2 years. I don't want to know how much money I spent during that time. I did play a lot with friends, though, and met new friends from it, so it wasn't all bad, but I'm never spending that much time or money on a game again. I'd play late into the night trying to grind out the battlepass (which is spread out over 200+ levels now), or in the Save the World mode trying to grind a dollar or two worth of v-bucks so I could get something in the item shop. People should definitely be aware of how much time and money you can unintentionally sink into these games, especially because so many kids play them.
I would have to say Final Fantasy 14 is probably the most generous live service mmo right now, if you're into story that anyone could offer. The amount of work that went into that game after 1.0 is immense. Yoshi P and the team really pulled through for everyone. It's great to see him involved with the development of FF16 as well!
mmorpgs have always been live service though thats the point of the game but they was made that way for an actual purpose rather than just for money
these shooters that are considered live service or no different from old lan shooters other than you pay for upgrades or wait a really long time for upgrades.
they turned a 30min shooter experience in to a 365 day experience for no reason other than to sell u upgrades.
theres no extra social interaction amongst players like mmorpgs brought in
@@alaskanmalamute101 live service FPS be like, "Here's some update, but it's all microtransaction, though"
Destiny, Warframe and Planetside (does this count as a live service?) are the one that's okay in my book
id argue mmos like ffxiv arent a true live service since u have to pay a monthly fee. that model has been out since the late 90s.
Well, not more than NMS
Ah yes overrated 14
I think From Software sets a great example for other studios in the industry. More studios should use their blueprint for inspiration in how to evolve, because live service how it is now (in most cases) shouldn’t be the way it is AT ALL.
Fromsoft does a decent job of some aspects. If we're looking at a developer and a series that's been killing it with the content updates and support years after launch, it's IO Interactive and Hitman
@@BTBSOUNDS Hard agree! They’re another awesome example. I need to play those games again. I remember playing Blood Money as a kid and questioning my morality 😂
If a game is gonna be live service it has to be free to play with ALLOT of effort put in
Yes, but even from software could update their model. I hate their coop and won't recommend a single one if their games until it is improved. I may be fine going through multiple hassles just to play with others, but my friends won't. And yes, I know their reasoning. The fact remains in my opinion their games would be amazing coop games with some tweaks to the formula
@@jamesford871 the main issue I'd say would be lack of content. Destiny 2 especially. I love the concept of the game but there isn't shit unless your paying every fucking season, dlc etc. The content is also drip fed that it isn't shit unless you wait about a month for everything to be available.
For me it mostly comes down to the opportunity cost of developing them. Time spent developing and maintaining these things I'll never play is time that could be spent on games I would play and enjoy. Then too, there are too many games for me to keep up as it is, so perhaps that's a blessing.
The thing is: Those who like it, already invested enough time into what they already play that only a major factor will make them switch. What's left are those curious about these sort of games, so the total ammount of avaiable public is tiny. Don't help the fact they're almost all low quality.
Don't remember the details but it goes something like: BioWare was forced into using the Frostbite engine for Anthem even though it was not intended for what they had in mind for Anthem. Then later during development that same person saw a demo and was unhappy with it and (next part copied verbatim from wikipedia) "ordered several senior members to fly to Stockholm, Sweden to discuss how to improve the game with EA DICE, Frostbite's creators".
I'm sure there much more to the story, I'm just sure Falcon didn't *accidently* replace BioWare with DICE here.
It's the online only that really gets me. Like 10 years pass, or the company goes under, and I can never play it again. Good or bad. It scares me.
Really good. We need more videos like this to raise awareness. Gaming wasn't always like this. Keep spreading the word!
I understand the sentiment, but these games live off of people's attention to them. Put simply, I just don't think most of these games are even worth remembering.
If I were to pick how live service games should be structured, I'd easily go for expansions rather than a battle pass. Why? Because with expansions, you get what your promised right then and there. You don't need to beat challenges to unlock them, you have them right there ready to go. I also feel like having free updates would make players feel less hesitant of buying these expansions. Like with Splatoon, you have free gear, weapons, and stages (as well as returning stages) being added for free. So, when they announce an expansion that includes updated older hubs and a new story mode, I don't mind shelling out the cash because the dev team have also given up free stuff on the side.
I actually do enjoy "forever games" like Warframe as well as more traditional MMO's like ESO, FF14 etc. I rarely ever finish most games anyway, I'm more interested in the journey, the progression than in actually seeing end credits. Always having new content to play, new things to grind for and new goals to set, is what gets me excited. I do still play more traditional games with defined endings, but I struggle to keep myself interested once the only thing left to do is "clean up and ending sequence".
I used to think that way too. Then you will get older and realize you only have so much time left in your life. Endless will become much less attractive.
@@Ted_BellThe opposite. I don't feel like completing anything because it feels mandatory. With live service games and can mess around and hope off whenever without feeling like I need to finish anything.
@@Hidden_lvlreally depends on the game though, if you're talking a multiplayer shooter where your full loop is an hour or less you technically "beat the game" in that hour, doesn't matter if you didn't look pretty or get that gun you wanted, you can still have experienced all you need to, but when you have a huge story or a full chapter you're missing because you failed to pay to get through your MC's revenge fantasy or missing entire minigames... It feels petty.
I think the defining factor here is the goal of the devs. As you said, if a dev makes a carrot on a stick, that's not going to work, and we see these games failing. However, when service is driven by the Game and not the market, we get some amazing games.
WoW, Dota 2, Destiny 2 are great games from the development perspective. You can take the live service away and they will still be great games, because of mechanics, optimization, sandboxes, worlds, combat or other things. If you take the grind+market away and it's unplayable - it is going to fail. And they do. All the time.
The one reason everyone hates them, they’re designed to trap you into repetitive and boring gameplay and then convince you that you can buy your way out of Borden with skins. It incentives grooming players into spending money instead of making a good game that makes players WANT to spend money
Fortnite seems to be the only good live service.
Yeah there are some live service games that I have fun with. Like Fallout 76 and Halo Infinite. However I’m old-fashioned. I always want the full content of a game upfront. Not in puzzle pieces for the next 10 years. Plus I always prefer off-line games because it’s something that I can pause & have multiple save files(like Fallout 3,4,&NV).
My top 3
You know that those fallout games released "incomplete" in the way you have described right?
@@devastatheseeker9967 OK let’s compare. Fallout 3, 4, & NV(launch date): yes a bit buggy(pretty much a feature when it comes to all Bethesda off-line games). However the vanilla Game has so much content that leaves you playing for months, even without DLC & Mods(I never use mods). In my first run of those games, I barely had any problems. My friends and I gave all three of those games high praise back then(as did many others that I met). Anthem: story is below average, has no replay value, The grind is so extreme(seriously The reputation grind is absurd), The Titans rarely spawn, and the bugs were WAY worse than the Bethesda engines(same goes for the loading screens. Ugh They were longer than all The fallout loading screens). And don’t get me started on Battlefield 2042.
@@Steel-101 okay now compare those games to cyberpunk 2077's launch and realise how fucking stupid you are for thinking live service games are any different quality wise.
Live service games are great. Bad games are bad games regardless of the kind of game it is.
@devastatheseeker9967 No, you could play all those games from start to finish but they are generally buggy. Live service games don't even have a complete story, and they are buggy.
I'm surprised games like Overwatch 2 or CS:GO weren't mentioned, as far as initially being a paid game (for $30 / $15) to be later turned into a free-to-play game with micro-transactions.
I’ll never understand people who defend these type of games. All I hear that they can be fun, but at the end of the day they are more focused to take your cash than actually improving their game
It frustrates me when developer's release a game, and then constantly revamp it and tweak it (often unnecessarily so) but it can often have dramatic impacts and over time changes the entire experience. Back 4 Blood was constantly doing this in its early days, and most recently World War Z overhauled its weapon progression system making it a massive grind and a slap in the face to those who had already put the time in maxing everything out - back to square 1 you go.
I really enjoyed the Division and D2 for years. I also think there are games out there, like Outriders for example, that would've benefitted from being a live service. Studios need to keep them interesting and keep adding worthwhile content while not gating off newer players. It's just really hard to get right.
The Division series is one of the best live service games out there. Lots of ppl hate on it though because they had false expectations of it. It IS supposed to be a grindy, repetitive shooter "MMO" with gear progression not an immersive, story focused experience.
I just started a 3rd (4th?) playthrough of The Division 1 on Xbox, may go back to The Division 2 when I'm done & play through Warlords of NY again (had it on PS4 & finished it)! I bloody love those games!! The best "listen to a podcast & play" games ever created!! 🙂
@Exo Falz I was actually referring to The Division 2, not Destiny 2. I got put off of Destiny 2 for the exact reason I stated in my comment. I came into it after they'd already vaulted a ton of content. I was looking forward to starting at the beginning and playing through this giant story, but then I realized the content was no longer available. Uninstalled a few hours after. It felt like watching a series on Netflix and having to start at season 6.
@@YeOldeMachine Amen to that! Same reason I got out of Destiny 2...it felt like running a race, but I had to start at the Starting Line & everyone else got to start at the halfway mark?!
If everyone would hate them, they wouldn't make them.
Just like with micro transactions and mobile phone games, which also "everyone" hates.
Clearly there's a viable market for these things. 🤷♂️
All my favourite games are live service games. Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, Warframe. The best part of playing video games is playing them with my friends. As much as I loved GoW Ragnarok, that is a solo experience.
I mean i just meet up with my friends in person but you do you
I dont hate the concept of a live service game, i hate what it represents.
Greed, pure corporate greed. no longer is it enough to simply buy the game at full AAA price, theres now season passes and legendary editions and a million other ways to keep you hooked up to the milking machine. and even if you do pay for everything you still dont actually own the game, youre merely permitted to have it on your hard drive until the money runs dry and they shut the servers down. i still have a playstation and some games boxed away in my garage. games i bought over 20 years ago and they will stuff run if i set them up. and most of those games would be more entertaining than the garbage the AAA games industry comes out with these days. not as pretty, but far more engaging.
My issue is I have to keep paying to play. Just not a big fan of subscriptions unless its some membership that gets you some handy bonuses that isn't some sort of requirement to do well in the game. Kinda like something that roblox has, simple five dollar monthly membership that gets you a sum of in game money in month along with discounts on certain cosmetic items and possibly some in game bonuses. The last two benefits are also dependent on the creators of the items or games as well so its not even close to a majority of stuff, but enough for it to be a handy bonus if you like the game and play often.
but that is generally free to play game with a membership right? games that require a sub to play are typically just so much better then your typical free to play multipler game.
Always pushing out great quality videos falcon!
Keep up the good work falcon
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that is why live service games need what can make a ``normal`` game endless too
which is replayability
the fact that you can play something again and still have a blast
this can work if the gameplay focuses on variaty, skill cieling and modes
If you're an adult who pays all their own bills and have to budget; Internet Bill, xbox live subscription or alternative bill for gaming consoles, Pay for the Game, plus game DLC/loot boxes, outfits. On and on, so much money going into entertainment. I had to cut back alot on gaming, mostly by finding new ways to mod games i already own and not endlessly buying new ones.
A good live service game you won't mind making it a part of your life for a year, it becomes a community of gamers. I think if a game achieves that and people make friends and bond over it, even if they give the company 20$ or 100$ a month if it makes them happy then I think that is positive for gaming as a whole. Because games are supposed to be social IMO.
Games started out as an extra form of entertainment which was a good description for most games. I honestly believe that multiplayer social side of gaming is nothing but a huge PITA as the communities are often filled with absolute clowns, just downright nasty people or cheaters. I do not know of one gaming community that is a great place to be a part of and I've been playing games for 40+ years at this point.
@@proffessorX As an almost exclusively solo player I have seen many great gaming communities, mostly around modding, Minecraft, Skyrim, Terraria, ARK.
I do not agree that games are supposed to be social, but I do appreciate some of the communities that have formed around my favorite games.
As for communities of competitive gamers in online games, no idea, I avoid them like the plague because I bet they're horrible, people can be the worst
@@AlabasterJazz I think that's just because you're not social. Nothing's wrong with that, per se, but I disagree on the statement that games are "not supposed to be social". Going by that, competitive sports in general like basketball wouldn't even be a thing. If you haven't found a good community of competitive gamers, you simply weren't looking for it. Fighting game communities are practically the "gymbros" of gaming, for example. There are plenty of Discord servers hosting custom matches of their favorite games between the members just for the fun of it. There are games that can be played by your lonesome, and that's great. I love them too. But to disregard social games is downright silly. The history of games dates to the ancient human past. Games are an integral part of all cultures and are one of the oldest forms of human social interaction. Games like chess didn't survive all these years and centuries just because they can be fun. The social aspect between the players are what kept it going to this day. Same goes for games like fighting games, which when you break down to its very core, is no different than chess, really.
@RunBaa I do agree with what you're saying, there is definitely a social aspect to a lot, if not most, games. But if a game has no social element but has all of the other factors that make it a game, it is still a game. For sports you have things like gymnastics, or rock climbing, or running/swimming, which of course can be competitive, but can also be enjoyed entirely solo. Just so for games.
Games can be designed, and done well, with no element of sociability built in.
So games are not inherently social, but there is definitely a social aspect to many games. I'm sure both types are as ancient as each other, and both as endearing to groups of people for many reasons.
My greater point, is even as reclusive as I am, also with 40+ years of gaming, there are some great communities of gamers, they're not all toxic, for instance even this channel has it viewers, and that is part of a "gaming community" that is pretty awesome
@@proffessorX amen. The only good gaming community IMHO is outside the games, through in-person connections and events over games, or even online fan communities. But guilds, multiplayer, etc... Not the easiest place to find lasting meaningful friendships.
My primary reason is Constant pressure of Fear Of Missing Out. these games are made that you have to play all the time. But you have X amount of time & the cool stuff requires alot of time. And if you do not play= you wont get it in the future. This strain turns me off in investing in a live action game. WOWS, war thunder, Call of duty. I quitted them all. Only Fo76 remains my OCCASIONAL live action fun
The phrase "For every Destiny there is several anthems" is gold, because there are actually more than 1 destiny, and both are still being played, personally, for me, Destiny more than a game is now a lifestyle, my 2 best friends are friends that I made playing Destiny 1 back in the Xbox 360 and we became IRL friends and we talk daily and yes we are aware of the ways Destiny works because we have been here since the beta. It's hard to love a game like this, it's hard to live in a live service game, but sometimes, in rare cases, it pays off to play those games.
For every Warframe there's a destiny.
I really wouldn't say that it "pays off". You managed to make some friends and have good times, you can easily do that and also not be hooked on a trashy live service game.
When I first played marvel's avengers, I didn't know what live service is, the grind was fun at first, but after a while... it's just a repeat for gear, numbers - a job!
I will never touch another one!
I play Warframe personally. Live service is painful at times, when my internet connection is bad. Also it sucks that we have "Hosts" and the first player to start the mission is the host. Ping varies, depending on their internet connection, yours and the ping limit that you have set in the settings. The game is great, but the "Host migrating" process makes me want to cry and many players would be grateful if we just entered a server instead of hosting for one another. I would be very happy if we could play offline if we choose solo (It's something you can choose in the game) and change to multiplayer when you feel like it, or when you need help with a mission.
Great points on this list. I know gamers get a bad rap for being needy and too hard to please, but the GAAS model has to be the worst iteration the industry has been through and justifies most gamers issues. Also, your editor slipped up at 09:54 , should be a BioWare logo there.
Thought I was the only person that caught that
I agree with your points and even just a few of these are enough factors to put me off them. I don't really see most live services as games, they are money makers, nothing more. The only ones I see with any real value are the ones that started and became successful before 'liiivvveee services' became a mainstream thing.
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You nailed it Falcon. Every point you raised is exactly why I avoid live service games. The main one being I don't want to have to keep paying for a game that I've already paid $90.00 for. Yes, in Australia most new games cost around $80-$90.
Another reason is I like games that eventually end. I want to lose myself in a good story with good characters that I know is going to have an ending. Also, I don't want to be always online just to play. That's the dumbest idea ever. I've never played or bought a live service game in my life and I never will.
As soon as you make friends in a game like that, you're in trouble. You find yourself playing just because of friendships and not because the games are enjoyable lol.
In October I started playing these awesome mobile game Warhammer Tacticus. In 5 months I played EVERY DAY for 2-3 hours and it was fun but finally I decide after few attempts to let it go. It's felt soooo good when you free your mind from bad habit like that when you play a game few times a day as energy/resources are ready (including 1st thing after waking up). Nobody commented mobiles in that topic but I believe they are important segment of Live Service Games. Being a gamer for about 30 years one of the lessons I learn is - if game steal to much of your time, make you nervous, toxic or in other way to reacting differently on regular - You MUST take a brake or quit it.
I actually liked Ubisoft’s approach to a semi-live service model with AC Odyssey. They had a blog where every month they’d detail what was coming to the game via updates like bug fixes, free content and paid dlc part of the season pass. They went above and beyond with it, offering free skin packs to redeem, more free quests than they originally promised that were surprisingly high quality for their standards, and even quality of life features like transmog. Best part was the lack of monetisation for the most part, not including the gear store. That was the last time I’ve seen them meaningfully care about a game post launch with great communication
Because most of them are Americans and they always have something to gripe.
Personally my favorite live service game that I've put a lot of time into is Deep Rock Galactic. It is very simple but in my opinion done right live service.
Do you even have to pay anything extra there?
@@stanislavkimov2779 Couple special cosmetic dlcs are the only thing and any extras from their "Performance/Battle Pass" which is free just goes into the in-game extra event challenges to get.
@@sulggothewise I can't really call it a service. Just a well supported game with a lot of effort from the developers.
@@stanislavkimov2779 Well yeah I guess. They have their pretty regular updates and weekly events as well as challenges. Definitely check out a couple of videos on it if you have a chance.
It's actually not a live service game. There are no servers (it's all peer to peer), and the only paid-for content is some specific themed cosmetic DLC.
I hate live service games more than I hate myself 🤣
Thank you Falcon for talking about this topic. 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
Vermintide 2 is a very good live service game from a fairly small game developer. It had free and paid updates and has had consistent updates and fixes. It actually launched in a really good state too.
We Asian-Pacific only have smartphone and internet towers,now the cable telephone ☎️ line is outdated,no one is used telephone lines in the village anymore.
Thank you for bringing this up. I see more and more new players to video games who don't know how much nicer it is to pay for a full game than get sucked into blowing thousands, even tens of thousands on a single game over years.
Take me back to the time of 2007...
I loved Destiny when it first came out. I LIVED inside of that game lol. Now, I tried going back and didn't recognize it. I didn't even know where to go, or where to begin lol. It all felt like end game content, or the content left over after the main game lol. I played a the way through the fallen king, or taken King, and after that it felt like everything was over. Which makes me sad just talking about it, but supposedly it's still going strong lol.
That clip with the guy playing league of legends with a controller is cursed
Used to be a die hard FIFA fan.
The way it is now, seeing it stop existing would make me really happy.
I've been working in Live Service games in mobile for the past 3 years, and I am really looking forward to a change of paradigm. Shall we brainstorm on how to change it?
make games like they where before the live service craze?
@@adad87821 That would be the goal but then, how do we monetise the game, realistically? Players won't purchase premium games on mobile anymore, seeing how many high quality games are there for free :)
@@santibadia3097 you are talking to old people mostly, I doubt there are much if any people who have commented that play on mobile.
My live service game is Warframe. Mostly because it was free and hasn't disappointed me yet. I never felt like I had to spend money in the game, but I have mostly because I wanted to and felt like I should give something to the developers for giving me such a fun game to play
Same i dropped destiny completely because the prices for the dlcs were getting ridiculous plus the community is much better imo
I was an early adopter and I loved warframe for the longest time! Something happened along the way though, and I can’t quite put a finger on it. I fell off of it and I’m genuinely sad about that.
Truly think the model can be successful, even more so than we’ve seen if it’s balanced properly. I think the main problem is the whole setup is kinda like accidentally discovering a money glitch. You say you’ll “just do it once” but before you know it you’ve got time limited weapon skins and $10 exp booster kits.
It is good marketing but if this is what u want from gaming ultimately, please invest in sum dope nfts. Maybe ull b a millionaire
I think live services will be like mmo's. Just like the wow clones died, the fortnite and destiny clones are buried and people stay away from the genre for a while. But one day people will learn lessons from the old live services and make new and far superior ones, just like we are seeing with mmo's.
I tried to start Warframe god that community is harsh to the new players 🤣 sorry I didn't spend 1000$ and 10000 hours in the game bro
Just incase, As the video said, Live service is selling an idea that it will get better as *MORE* I repeat as *MORE* people throw money at it. Than just selling an offline game with 40~60 hour campaign,etc that has an end. I'd say your money was already well worth it, the end.
The problem with these publishers, they hire many people that are not devs like mid-managers or psychologist to exploit consumer engineering, etc. managers, mid-managers, CEO's that doesn't contribute no quality to the game, they even make games worse by pushing deadlines and placing MTX and live service/online only.
@@MangaGamified Disagree to some degree. I think it’d be foolish to pretend like the Live Service model isn’t being abused by publishers, but I do think if handled the right way, you could create a game that didn’t feel like it was pushing micro transactions down your throat while supplementing an episodic story through seasons similar to a tv show.
I truly believe the model is being criticized too much while the publishers are the ones who are taking advantage of it. That being said, there are also fundamental problems with current games falling into this model like the always online bs where we will lose thousands of hours of progress at any moment when they discontinue server support.
I played COD years ago like back in 2007ish and enjoyed the game, haven't played since. So I tried buying COD Modern warfare 2 and purchased a few operators. After realizing I couldn't use those operators offline, I quickly bought the refund bundle after. They really think online is the way to go.
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I feel like live service games get a bad rep because of all the failed ones. Live service games can work and can be fun. I've been a Destiny gamer for years and still play it, albeit not as much as I used to. Division had two good games, and there are others. I just feel that these games are harder to make and keep players playing, and too many studios don't put in the work to create a lasting product, but just want the continuous money flow of one.
They get a bad rep because they fan the flames of addiction and self aggrandisation at the expense of the socially awkward or poor
Deep Rock Galactic is a good example of a live service game done right. A fleshed out world with a strong community drawn in by a passionate team hell bent on building an experience to enjoy and not a lucrative business model.
Alll the extra stuff is done so well people WANT to give them money. They released a cosmetic dlc and it hit top 5 dlc on steam. FOR SKINS. People are just that thankful about DRG
Rock And Stone
Rock and Stone!
Yeah but it's still live service for the express purpose of making people spend money. Just because a game is enjoyable doesn't make it any less predatory
@@JohnDoe-hj9fh So, it simply being a live service game makes it bad by default? Like, is this a hot-take, or what??
Not to mention that you’ll likely spend far more than the price of a normal game throughout the lifetime of the live service game only for it to be shut down one day and you literally cannot access it anymore. Not (always) the case with normal games.
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I am heading towards not buying any new games ever again and it's hard as I have played games throughout my life and I still find new games with interesting premises.
However, with that said, I am so against this idea that once you buy a game you apparently do not own that copy which I believe is illegal in a number of countries especially France due to strong consumer market laws I think that until this system is changed I will no longer support these companies that are making live service games.
the 80s to early 2000s had the best games for a reason; no DLC, little need for the internet, to play with others you invite people and if they suck in some way you kick them out of your home or give them the shitty controller, the game was in full the moment you got no need to get other parts, and any extras you wanted would be in next game or you could use creation suite.
Because we want a game to play after getting off work…not to go right back to work. 😕
HELLO 👋 I JUST FARTED 🤣🤣🤣
One of the better live service games is Genshin Impact. 3 years of constant and improvement of quality and an ongoing story that develops year over year. We all know its going to end sometime and the experience of years of gaming will be good.
lol where is are the improvements... I quit precisely because it lacked any sort of substance or real improvements.
@@flariz4824 t. living under a rock. Sumeru was a blast the hell are you talking about?
@@AlejandrXZD I literally quit Genshin around 2-3 days after Sumeru released because I just couldn’t take it anymore.
Did they add anything of *real* substance or it is just yet another big zone that is tedious to explore and chests that give pointless rewards along with ridiculously trivial fights?
@@flariz4824 if you dont like open worlds thats on you m8. Sumeru is by far the best zone for now, it has a whole desert, bosses and deep lore. And the archon quest made me and other people sentimental. The music is top notch and the new characters are a blast.
It is an open sandbox, if you dont like exploring that doesnt make the game bad or tedious.
@@AlejandrXZD I quite literally had all previous zones pre-sumeru 100%’d and I liked it (For the most of the part). It is not an open world problem it is a content issue.
Past a certain point there is no real incentive to explore on Genshin. Rewards are almost the same as what you get on Monds.
You put a lot of work on figuring out a puzzle so when you finally get it right, you get... some trash fodder and maybe a blue artifact... when your inventory is filled with dozens and dozens of gold ones? Well thanks???!!
It makes the whole exploring experience static and dull... I was expecting some actual improvements on the exploration or combat or... anything really but it’s just more of the same.
Games like Deep Rock Galactic use live service to make the game 19x better each game. Avengers and Halo Infinite used it to excuse predatory monetization and releasing unfinished, saying, “oh, oh, don’t worry! It’ll be fixed in a year!”
HELLO 👋 I JUST FARTED 🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂
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@@gameranxTV I love that your reply was changed from pointing to mine to pointing to the bot now above you lol. UA-cam’s doing poorly at handling bots, much like Valve in tf2
Lol
Idk why gameranx pointing to bot made me laugh
I'm not a fan of live service games usually but if I'm interested in a specific game I'll try it out. Like sucide squad kills the justice league I am interested in the story the cutscenes look good the graphics look awesome the character designs look really good. And I like the voice acting
This video truly shows my main concerns for D4, especially the points on connectivity. Still excited to play it, because the game itself seems great... but sheesh it sucks that it is always online with at least the potential of constant gamespam marketing... (Paying $70-100 for a game... and still being spammed with shop advertisements is a real concern for me at least)
Does Genshin Impact qualify as a live service game? 🤔 Really wish Falcon gives his take on that game one day. Although I no longer put money into it, I've put enough to ensure I play that game until the end. Already AR 60 and still going.
Yes it definitely is. Ticks all the boxes.
@@USMCKong0311 learn to differentiate between eastern LS and Western LS , cause they are night and day in their principles and execution and audience
@@ak-ub1ym live service is still live service to be fair
@@TheReZisTLust that's western simplification at its finest. So lemme ask : Are chicken and duck eggs viewed & sold in the same basket at the same rate , Just cause it's laid by birds? answer me this and don't deviate.
@@TheReZisTLust still waiting on the answer since it's FAIR that u reply to my earlier one which was a reply to urs when u pinged me. Don't u think so?
Anthem had so much potential. That one still hurts.
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yes :(
I think the thing I hate the most in live service games is battle passes...As a casual gamer who doesn't have an infinite amount of time to spend of every game I own, I rarely EVER make it to the final tier of any battle pass and I always end up feeling cheated out my money. Like it honestly feels like I spent money only to get NOTHING in return. I'm sorry but I just don't understand why Halo Infinite is the only game to have battle passes that never expire. It absolutely blows my mind that this is even a thing
It’s a disgusting player retention practice to increase fomo and pressure you into playing their game only. Killed Overwatch for me and that was my favorite multiplayer game last gen.
I love the way Falcon says connectivity 😂❤
Holy crap!!! I haven’t vacuumed my dog yet today. Thanks for reminding me, Falcon!! I agree I’ve been playing Destiny since day one, I still use my day one Warlock from D1 in D2 to this day. I’ve bought every expansion and even if it was the only game I played I still wouldn’t be able to keep up with it. It’s like a chore now, TBH.
So just stop. Buy a real game and play it. RE4R is really good.
@@bpdmf2798 Oh, I know it’s good. I have the collectors edition.
I love live service games, I hate when companies try to make a live service game out of something that should 100% not be a live service game.
Yup! Hate the publishers for exploiting the model, not the model for being exploited.