They let me LAND a DC-3! + Accidentally blasted a J3 Cub off taxiway - Flight VLOG
Вставка
- Опубліковано 24 сер 2017
- I’ve never been more nervous about a Flight Vlog!
Proud to be associated with ForeFlight: www.foreflight.com/flightchops/
Visit www.FlightChops.com for behind the scenes and monthly GiveAways!
A new GiveAway EVERY month; shared prizes from all our sponsors totalling over $2,000!
And for over 100 curated episodes, from Tail Wheel and Aerobatics, to IFR and WarBirds!
Please visit www.FlightChops.com for details!
Big thanks to Gold Seal for inviting us to produce this one !
www.onlinegroundschool.com
Related episodes:
AirVenture Fisk approach with the U.S. Coast Guard!
www.flightchops.com/2016/08/18...
Onboard for Tight Formation aerobatics with the AeroShelll team!
www.flightchops.com/2015/07/30...
Flying formation in P-51 Mustangs!
www.flightchops.com/2017/06/19...
Huge thanks to all the Supporters on Patreon! Productions like this wouldn't be possible without your help!
For those that haven't seen it, please check the Flight Chops Patreon page to find out how you can be a part of it!
- The raw RC flight, on top of several dozen other exclusive uncut flights is available for supporters to view!
/ flightchops
_____
Sponsor / Supporter Links:
ForeFlight
www.foreflight.com/flightchops/
Bose Aviation
www.bose.com/a20
The Finer Points of Flying - Jason Miller:
adventure.learnthefinerpoints.com
iCloth Avionics:
www.iclothavionics.com/flight-...
Scheyden Precision Eyewear
www.scheyden.com
CloudAhoy
www.cloudahoy.com
Spectrum Airways Flight Training:
www.spectrumairways.com/
FLIGHT CHOPS DISCLAIMER:
I am a "weekend warrior" private pilot, I fly for fun with no intentions of going commercial. I have had my PPL for over 15 years, but still consider each flight a learning experience - I generally take detailed notes after each flight to remind myself what went well or what I could do to improve.... Having the GoPro cameras to record flights like this is invaluable. I find these self analysis videos very helpful in my constant quest to improve, and am happy to share. Feedback is invited; however, please keep it positive.
Steve, your "always willing to put my mistakes out there" is what makes you no. 1 in UA-cam aviation videos. I've learned many good lessons from your videos and this is no exception.
I'm glad you have thick skin for posting this, as it is obviously a great lesson for all around. After watching the video I'd say ultimately that everybody and nobody was at fault (you're least at fault really). Realistically I feel that the marshals and the cub pilot should hold the most blame. Seems like runup procedures for large aircraft should have been sorted out long ago at Oshkosh.
Personally, I will take the lesson learned that every prop plane needs to make a run up and that I need to always be mindful of prop/jet blast behind larger aircraft during taxi. I've never really worried about scooting behind a jet on a ramp but perhaps I should be. I'll definitely keep this video in my head from now on.
As for that reddit guy saying "only FlightChops can brag about doing something dumb/unsafe while flying and get upvoted for it." No.
"(Only) FlightChops is brave enough to come forward with mistakes first." Though, I'd hope you're not the "only" one and I'd upvote someone that humble every time.
I really appreciate this comment! I work hard to find a balance between creating fun and inspiring content, but also sharing legit real world flying learning moments - glad you are digging it.
I don't see any link to Steve-o in the jump seat's channel, his head in the video wasn't clickable so I'm kinda stumped how to find the other people and shout outs mentioned in the video.
+AARON LEWIS DINKIN - good point - I will add it to the description when I get home - but meantime, Google Steveo1Kinevo
EDIT: ok - Steveo's link is now in the description.
What has Steve done that's dumb/unsafe? Guess I missed that video.
+Aviation Fanatic - it was comment from a hater on a thread on Reddit.
Prop/jet blast is no joke. I have operated out of large international airports in small GA aircraft. You defiantly need to caution prop/jet blast and assume that no one knows what to do with the Piper Arrow. One time I almost had a Cessna get flipped by a 737 nearly 500-1000 feet away just taxing!
Of course, it is always nice when the controller has a sense of humor and tells the gigantic jet behind you to "caution prop wash!"
For example Kennedy Steve...
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to get the reference...
I thought the same. the moment you said "jet caution prop wash" I immediately though "steve!"
Hahahaha
Joshua Landry Mythbusters used a parked 747 to investigate jet blast. It was pretty impressive.
That shot at 8:23 of the procession of all the baby prop planes following behind the mama DC-3 is just incredible.
“Pretend its a piper cub” 😂 little bit of foreshadowing lol
The only problem with these AWSOME things you can get to do, is that when they are over, you want to do them AGAIN.
19:02 nice flames from the exhaust pipe!
yeah was that normal for this plane? fire isn't usually a good sign
Short exhaust pipes + powerful engines = more flames :). It's pretty normal from what I've seen.
No problem here, this happens with big radial piston engines at start-up, and also when you chop (excuse me for the pun) the power.
Yes it's normal. Classic radial engine
unburned fuel going through the system and burning off on the hot tail pipe?
EAA should definitely give better training to ground guys. I used to work for a major airline and can tell you by experience that it is a standard procedure not to allow any vehicle to move behind an airplane with an engine running. Glad there wasn't anything serious there!
Yeah, it's a tough one though as there are sooo many engines running at AirVenture... but yes, some more training, or even a bit f info in the publications for ground ops (both for the pilots and the marshals) would not hurt.
Who knows, maybe I can help with that for next year's AirVenture. I would be glad to do it. :-)
I agree on the training, but as in all things aviation, it is ultimately the job of the PIC to manage the safety of flight. Here, the Cub pilot totally should have kept well clear of the larger airplane's prop wash.
IMHO
I strongly agree with you, +dbrown4bbl. He should have put some common sense between his prop and the DC3's tail.
Fun Flight Capt Chops! It was a pleasure flying on FlightChops Airways!
+steveo1kinevo
Lol
hey stevo please watch this vid you might like ua-cam.com/video/5ItHNdrPEh0/v-deo.html
Stevoooo
We all had fun even the from Canada
I kbow several glider pilots who would love to have been behind that plane lol
It's still amazing to me how in less than 35 years we went from the first fixed wing powered flight ever to something as refined as this aircraft is.
35 years after this plane you get a 747/SR-71 era. Humanity has advanced almost vertically in technology since the first industrial revolution
Congrats on 8 DC-3 landings!!! 😁
Go to your room.
James Christensen somebody cant take a joke.
I thought your original comment was hilarious.
James Christensen ahhhhhh. I thought it was the typical UA-cam comment section smack talk.
Haha took me a sec to figure out what you ment. but that was hilarious
“Start of the art”. Just shows how “right” those guys got it back in the 30’s when a plane that old is still getting it done. Thanks for all the videos.
Good thing about planes is the popular ones will always be done right! When a car breaks down all the time you gotta walk... when a plane breaks down all the time it wont be a plane for long
At least you get to log 4 Landings in a DC-3 now! 😜
The fault lies with the pilot of the J3 Cub, who parked behind the DC-3. That much is plainly obvious. However, the ground marshals also need to accept blame, as they know full well that a run up is due, yet they allowed the Cub to park behind you. I suspect EAA will come up with a procedure and maybe even a specific signal for dealing with with this. It was bound to happen, at least there was lots of video to show how it happened, which makes it a very good learning experience for everyone involved and in the future. No one was injured, and no damages to any aircraft happened, so this learning experience truly was a freebee.
+P Toth - agreed - this was a great learning moment with very little cost.
P Toth
First of all the J3 did not park behind the DC3. It was taxiing as directed by the marshals after stopping back for some time. Maybe the marshals felt that the DC3 PIC had enough sense to do a run up when the airplane was pointed in a safe direction!
Read the comments from the Oshkosh AirBoss that I posted earlier!
Secondly, lets forget about the J3 for a second and consider all the airplanes that were tied down in the grass next to the taxiway, not to mention all the associated tents and camping gear. And how about all the spectators in the lawn chairs setting next to the taxiway watching the morning takeoffs??
All of you armchair quarterbacks that minimize and discount the damage to the J3 should step up and pay the bill for the repairs which is considerable.
FlightChops...VERY LITTLE COST??? Obviously not to you.
+P Toth, I'm struggling to understand how you've come to conclusion that fault lay squarely with the Cub driver. He was following instructions from the marshallers and thus had no reason to think that he was about to be blown into the weeds. He'd been following the DC3 for some way without any issues and from his perspective everything indicated that he was going to take the intersection, line up and depart, so had no indication nor any reason to believe that he should not continue taxying.
Imho the majority of the blame lay with the the Gold Seal guy as he gave no indication nor advance warning to anyone that he was going to do an engine run up at that intersection. People are not mind readers and I fully understand why the marshallers went crazy with him. The Gold Seal guy's attitude is shocking at the end of the video too : 21:27 (completely unnecessary condescending tone) "what was this guy thinking? especially in a tiny little piper cub" comes across as "what a complete noob in his silly little Cub, DOES HE NOT KNOW HOW IMPORTANT I AM IN MY BIG AEROPLANE? Sheesh.. Tut! Roll eyes" etc. There was simple no need for that at all.
As already pointed out by others, there were tents all along the grass there and people sat relaxing on chairs watching the activity so it was a completely inappropriate place to do an engine run up. Gold Seal guy should have continued down the taxiway as originally directed then there wouldn't have been any issue.
It really boils down to a lack of communications between all parties and in all the excitement some oversights were made. None of us are perfect and these things happen but you learn from it. Fortunately it sounds like the only harm done was some cosmetic damage to the Cub, but I hope Gold Seal guy does the right thing and offers to contribute towards to the repair bill and they both leave on good terms.
My comment earlier about this being a "learning moment" was too brief. I definitely do not blame the J3 pilot entirely. I am learning a lot from the discussion this video has generated. My goal is to do a sort of follow up video that generally addresses "best practices" for ground ops at Osh. Clearly there is a lot of confusion among the community about how things should go and where / when is the best place to do a run up, etc.
FlightChops:
"I definitely do not blame the J3 pilot entirely." How generous! I least the EAA officials didn't ask the J3 to leave AirVenture 2017.. ...Why don't you tell us who WAS asked to leave?
Can you in any seriousness whatsoever, admit that doing a run up with a big airplane, pointed at an active taxi way, not to mention lots of spectators in lawn chairs and many airplanes tied down with camping gear, all in close proximity, is a wise choice? " confusion in the community" LOL
''You've heard of state of the art?''
''This is start of the art''
For some reason this appeared in my recommendations and I am pleased it did. The camera angles and editing are just amazing. Plus the bonus that is still one sexy looking aircraft. Praise where praise is due. Tony from England.
Thanks and welcome to the channel! Enjoy the 100+ back catalogue episodes!
FlightChops Last month I sat in the left seat of a DC-3 for the first time. The sight picture was to say the least, a bit much for a zero time in a tail dragger pilot. Now to get some time in this classic of an airplane. Thanks for a great video. Well done.
Aesthetics from 1930-1969 were amazing.
The people who disliked the video were the marshals and the Pilot of the J3😂
Holy thank you 🙏 so much for the likes my most like comment is like 6 😂 cheers lads
This comment deserves 69 likes
Hugh Ragg wow, didn’t know 400 people could fit into a J3
Haha just kidding
447?
Hahahaha
549
If we're putting people in line of fault, you should be solidly at the end. Who taxis a cub behind a running DC-3?!
K Johnson I know literally Shit about this stuff, but that make sense.
If they did that at Heathrow behind a 767, they would have been splattered on the windshield of an Airbus.
a moron....
I don't think it was a coordinated line-up.
😂for real I mean your a cub a 4 year olds breath can lift you off the ground
Truth is: when the wheels of the airplane are touching the ground, it's the marshallers responsibility to (fore)see and avoid these situations; the PIC's authority is limited when there are marshallers (I prefer ramp agents) on the ground. Besides, let's not forget that safety in aviation is everybody's business.
Hey! Cool! Our Cessna 195 made it into the edit!
There's a 195 at our local airport. I could stare at it all day.
Yeah, they are beautiful airplanes for sure.
Plane Perfect what time in the video can you see it?
0:56 Don't blink or you'll miss it! We were invited into the Vintage display area since our 195 is a returning award winner and it was the 70th anniversary of the type.
Rich Wellner very cool. I love those planes and am hoping to own one someday! You are very lucky and I am glad to see that you are taking such good care of it! Keep up the good work! Happy landings!
12:20 That is a LOT of aileron.
I got to tell you Steve, I'm a retired senior and in my lifetime I've had a lot of wonderful experiences that others have only dreamed about and had some great unusual jobs like working aboard a nuclear submarine to driving a horse drawn carriage but I'd trade about half of them to experience what you just did. How amazing, if you ever hear anybody say there is no such thing as a time machine, you can tell them you got to fly one. I only get to fly SFX on my computer now and though it can be challenging sometimes and remarkably beautiful, I know it's not like doing the real thing and I have to tell you I get more enjoyment out of flying some of the older birds like the DC-3 then I do the Boeng767 Like your instructor said there is a big difference between state of the art and start of the art. I defenitly am going to subscribe to your channel and can't wait to share in your next adventure. Thanks for putting out such a great video.
+Song SungBlue - thanks for sharing your story! And welcome to the channel!
Song SungBlue I've worked on a nuclear sub too so that makes two of us.
The sound that DC-3 makes is hypnotic.
is like a good old HEMI V8 big block
"back when aero engines were round the way God intended them to be"
That DC3 pilot is as cool in real life as I am in my head
An absolute professional, an absolute gentleman and an absolutely cool guy.
the aircraft need overhaul
Absolute scholar
"What are we about 40 feet? No, it's only 18 feet . . ." I burst out laughing! So glad to see the reality of the experience. Loved it. Keep it up.
We as pilots have been trained to be aware of large aircraft’s prop-blast and turbulence. Don’t blame the DC3 pilot.
So you pushed a Piper Cub onto the grass. He's just lucky you didn't blow him all the way back to the hangar! Great vid!
the delta pilot seems like a nice guy
very cool old dude.
Steveo, my introduction to general aviation and small plane flying, and I
am still a frequent watcher of his videos. I am now stuck on wanting a TBM850, getting a simulator and license. Steve,
I enjoy your really great FlightChops productions, your interaction with pilots
such as Osama, here in the DC-3, and another wise. I also admire how many different
aircraft that you can fly.
Got to sit in the cockpit of a C-47 the weekend before it made its last long trip up from Australia, up to Burma and over the Himalayas, along the same route they used to fly during the war. Came back on the Monday to watch her fly out. Awesome experience, one I won't forget soon.
Blew a J3 off the runway... brought me to tears, really. Fantastic lesson.
"This airplane was built in 1938, way, way, way before WWII"
Someone needs a history lesson...
Or did he mean 'before the US involvement in WWII'?
WaaDoku 【和ァ独】 kind of yes kind of no. A lot of people believe that World War 2 officially started in 1939 when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Then France and Great Britain declared war. Tho he may have talked about US involvement since C-47 production didn’t really ramp up till the lend-lease program leading up to America’s involvement in 1941.
WaaDoku 【和ァ独】 WWII Started in continuation of the Great War and
Russian Revolution broke out in 1917, treat of Versailles and the League of Nations, Japan/China and the occupation of Rhineland.
When the German economy was so good that it got rid of the private American/British Jewish global banks.
The private banks boycotted German industry to kill its economy. The physical war was a continuation of a Russian push into Poland and a slaughter of German civilians. We have been told so much lies it’s disgraceful.
1934 (?) When Japan invaded China .
Way way before, it was a year behind.
It started in 1939, during the Nazi invasion of Poland.
Just wanted to comment on the fantastic job Dan did, coaching you through it, reassuring and relaxing you, doing all the hard work at crazy Oshkosh, giving very clear orders and information at the right time. No fuzz. What a guy!
Dan is the best instructor on the planet. He’s been a good friend since our college days and I’ve always enjoyed watching him in his element. Thank you for the very excellent video of the flight and debrief. Just signed up as a subscriber and will spread the good word!
I'm glad I did my ground school through gold seal, I'm glad they did this for you
Lmao the dc3 literally blew the cub away😂. Imagine the taxi in that thing when a big gust of wind hits lol.
Awesome video. It amazes me that these beauties are still in the air 80yrs later.
just freaking awesome! this was a great experience... vicariously through you. thanks for sharing.
Wow Flight Chops ! What an honor to fly the DC-3 ! That plane is an American icon.
Too bad about the J3 - glad it's ok.
Great to see Steveo K.
And I really like that debrief tool.
Awesome Steve! What a rush!
I agree it was the Cub's pilot and the marshallers fault. Lessons learned.
FlightChops your living the High Life. Great Video...enjoyed it much. Cheers to ya
Start Safe, Stay Safe
Exhilarating video. Enjoyed this very much. The DC-3 is a beauty with those massive wings. I also loved the debrief at the end about the run up trouble. Dan seems like a very serious and experienced pilot.
Check out his probable cause channel
"Relax, let this airplane land itself."
Not so sure if that's how it works.
@John Doe Are you suggesting that really is how it works?
@John Doe Not so sure which one of us is taking things too literal...
@@user-no2vw8tm2s cringe
@@holypotat0 Yup.
@John Doe you're so rude, get out!
Love the Steveo/Chops production!
Back in the late '70's and early 80's my folks made me fly from sleepaway camp in Maine to join them in Truro, Cape Cod. So I'd fly from Boston to Provincetown on PBA Airlines (now defunct) on their fleet of DC-3's. As a fan of WW2 aircraft even as a tween, I loved flying the DC-3. We'd fly with only a net over the door, unpressurized cabin at a low altitude. It was just really fun, bouncy, loud and cool. I miss that ol' flight.
This year was the first year in the past 20 Ive missed AirVenture. Thanks for the videos from there, and in general. I love them.
This is the best type of ad. I am so glad these guys allow you to do such amazing things. As a PPL student I know this is sadly never something I would get to do. But I'm proud that I get the opportunity to be a patreon supporter of yours.
You never know, I am sure he never thought he would fly anything other than a Cessna when doing his training.
+Sam Jacks - thanks helping the channel get to where it is! And you never know what you'll end up flying - as the other reply says, I definitely didn't imagine I'd be doing this stuff
"Oh hey why don't I just taxi behind this giant powerful DC-3 about to take off in my lightweight little J3 cub in his blind spot?"
I love your channel! I am 16 years old and from PA and this summer was my first ever experience with planes and flying! I am friend with the owner of a local airport and me and a buddy worked their this summer. And one of the guys heard I had never flew before and my first airplane ride was in a 1946 Piper Cub! And it was magic as soon as I took off! I watch you channel nonstop and it inspires me to get my PPL and get my own light sport aircraft! (Either a Piper Cub or Super Cub) You teach me a lot in your videos as i pay VERY close attention to what is going on at all times! Keep up the good videos and keep your flight chops sharp!
Fantastic video Steve. I have been to the airshow Wings over Camarillo this past weekend and they did an old fashioned parachute drop with the static line out of the DC3 with full WWII gear with the round chutes it was quite a sight .
Very cool video! What an experience, huh? My advice to any aircraft departing the OSH during Airventure. Pull a marshal wearing an orange vest to you before departure and tell them exactly what you want and what you are going to do, before start up. You want that marshal to direct and tell other marshals your plan, so mishaps can be anticipated and avoided. Nice belch of fire on roll out from engine number 1!
When planes were first a thing yokes looked like steering wheels
its very funny to me it looks like a car steering wheel
Awesome video again Flightchops!! What a beautiful plane, nice job.
Chops, this was a great video.
First, it gave me that excitement of living through you a dang DC-3 left seat adventure. Secondly, there was a great reminder that there are no better ways to wrinkle fabric, bend tubing or crinkle aluminum than sitting behind any aircraft doing a run-up. It was a ground crew error but the responsibility mainly lay with the pilot of that beautiful tube and fabric Cub.
Wow, flying this must be like flying a mothership!
SOOOOOOOO freaking COOL!
Having volunteered as a ground marshal several years parking/directing aircraft at Oshkosh, I know that anything other than a light ga aircraft is a handful to deal with when there is no established and maintained comms with each pilot. That being said, the intersection departure adds an added measure of complication. Had the DC3 taxied to the south end of 36, the run up would probably not have been an issue. There wouldn't have been room for an errant aircraft to tuck in behind the old girl, or at least the DC3 could have stopped cocked to one side to send prop blast off centerline. No matter the size or type, I always taxi behind other a/c as if the leading aircraft can blow me or debris at me, especially flying my Champ. Champs and Cubs can start flying at anytime off the ground. That is what you learn flying a sub-800 pound tailwheel aircraft.
+Lew - yeah it was a bit of an odd ball situation that I thought everyone could learn from - I know you guys work hard for nothing but the love of it - thanks volunteering as a marshal!
I still cant understand why he listened to the marshal,I know they mean well but to cross directly so close behind a big plane is asking for trouble. It's basic knowledge to avoid pro/jet blast.Even just getting that bird moving from a dead stop could send a Cub into the weeds.
The DC3 really is a gorgeous plane, had one fly over me a some years ago whilst I was doing a news paper round, flying with no particular place to go and not really in any hurry to be there, and the sound from those twin engines was just heavenly.
Flightchops, you are on seriously lucky guy to take the helm of a truly graceful bird!
"Oh turning now" I love it. Nice job on the video.
Awesome video! The contribution your channel is making to the aviation industry is extraordinary. Keep up the great work! If you're ever in Hong Kong one day yell out! Can show you around our DC3 and wide-bodies.
+and miz - thanks! And yes for sure I intend to get to Hong Kong! Can you email me so I can file your details? Flightchops at gmail dot com
and miz I
To fly a DC-3 would be a dream come true.
It is 40 years ago I flew the last time a DC-3, a really great Airplane, love it.
Steve, I am always amazed at the quality and genuinely enjoyable flight videos.
Cheers
+Tyson Judd - thanks!
I've got 25+ years experience at KOSH and have realized that the army of volunteer marshals come from a diverse background. They all deserve our gratitude for all the time they put in for us pilots. However, some of them are not pilots themselves. (I know this to be true in the HBC camping areas. Perhaps they need to be pilots out on the active taxiways?) I've personally seen more than a few incidences of prop strikes, airplanes stuck in a shallow ditch, etc. due to the PIC doing what the marshal was requesting, or believing the marshal was providing "clearance protection" to ground obstacles. I've even failed to exercise my PIC because it is so easy to totally trust the person outside the plane. To me, KOSH is like launching on a night IFR flight in my single engine plane. The risks our higher, and I do my best planning to mitigate those risks. However, there are some risks at KSOH that are outside of any single person's control. "Stuff" just happens in that high dynamic environment. I could have easily been that guy in the Cub and would have been grateful for the Marshals that came to my aid. The Cub pilot and Marshals have another flying experience to add to their decision making library. Thanks for sharing and keep those videos coming.
+Michael Henderson - thanks for this insight - totally agreed that the "army of volunteers" work hard and deserve our appreciation.
The volunteers do come from a variety of backgrounds. But these marshallers are experienced pilots themselves and have done this volunteering job for many many years.
And to be honest, I don't think the taxiway crew need to be pilots. Some of the ground crew are ground crew in their daily lives and do this sort of stuff often. The less experienced volunteers always have someone else watching their back. And I have to say, a lot of incidents happen from pilots not following instructions. Of course, an incident will happen every once in a while, but hey, for more than 17000 flight movements this year, it all went very well!
what I've always heard is that the larger the plane is the bigger the priority, so the cub can shove off
Great flight! Love watching your work, Sir Chops!! Thanks for sharing your experience!
7:20 "Pretend it's a Piper Cub", becomes prophetic before it's over. Enjoyed the video Steve. Thanks for sharing.
2:40
Your Joy in your smile XD
Awesome
You lucky. ...... XD
absolutely wow man!
+Alex Edit :)
Excellent video..! It´s so greatful to see Steve and FlightChops together..! Greeting from Venezuela..!
There is something undeniably beautiful about the DC-3 that captivates me in a way that no other plane ever has. The closest second would probably have to be Concorde. Both are glorious feats of aeronautical engineering in their own respect.
Who else saw the flame at 19:03
I did, wtf
@@YotamPeleg it's normal on the plane according to a comment I saw before
This is my first time watching a FlightChops video. I thought it was awesome. I'm not a pilot, but I sure love to fly and I'm fascinated with the mechanics any kind of aircraft. You seem to do a great job with these clips. I'm definitely going to check out more of them. Honestly, I felt like I was getting a backstage tour and I learned a lot of little things about the nuances of flight that I didn't know. And trip to Oshkosh is definitely on my bucket list!
+kdmellor - thanks so much for this great feedback! I definitely try to make the videos as immersive as a "backstage pass" - glad you felt that way! And welcome to the channel - enjoy the 100+ back catalog episodes!
Haha, that little smile when he says "open the window just a little bit, that's your air conditioning" :D
I love that shot at 8:25 with all those little GA aircraft on the taxiway and that lumbering great monster of a DC3 in the distance. Awesome !
I had a bit of an experience like that, but in reverse. I was flying a tandem light sport into Andrews Air Force base for an air show and was taxiing in line coming in between a WWII B-17 and a modern Ospray.
Interesting video, thanks for posting. Someone forwarded this to me via my “unofficial” Flight Line Op’s (FLO) twitter account, so I’m going to comment on behalf of the marshallers and FLO.
First off because the video was directed to FLO I want to add FLO does not control Papa taxiway, that’s controlled by Vintage and Homebuilt. So I can’t speak to the their procedures. FLO controls the 18 threshold and north around 9/27.
Next remember the marshallers are volunteers not professionals, with vastly different levels of experience. We've had everyone from 747 Capt. ,air traffic controllers, private pilots to volunteers who never flown in a small aircraft. I bet some may not know what a run-up is. Same goes for the varying experience of the pilots at Oshkosh. I’ll add at this point very very few aircraft at Oshkosh do their run-ups while in line or at the runway for takeoff.
So here’s my problem with the last part of the video were the DC-3 pilot explanation of the incident. The marshaller and cub pilot “should have known” not to taxi behind the DC-3. After 30+ years volunteering at Oshkosh and 20+ years at FLO there are somethings I know. I know a T-28 will never taxi in the grass, I know an EZ prefers not to taxi in the grass, I know not to cross an aircraft at the threshold of 18 when one is on short final or one is about to take off full length from 18, I know a P-51 is going to get pissed if I hold him to long and I know the Ford Tri-motor is going to get out of line and cut across the grass and take off from an intersection.. One thing I don’t know is why a DC-3 gets out of line and is doing something different from everybody else.
“Oshkosh” works because of procedures in place, if you’re going there you go that way, if you’re going here you go this way and if you’re doing that you go here. Problems arises when someone, for whatever reason, does something different. The problem started when the pilot said “I’m going to try and negotiate an intersection take-off.” Why? I can see no reason other then he didn’t want to wait in line like everybody else. Even though it was approved by FAA this becomes extremely dangerous for everyone else. First, is the marshaller out of the way, he’s not expecting this large aircraft to all of a sudden turn and go a different direction from the last 100 aircraft. Second, this is what’s going through his mind. Where’s he going? (I didn’t see their VFR sign in the window???). Is he talking to someone? Is he crossing to 36R to taxi to the FBO? Is he crossing to Basler Turbo Conversion? Do I stop him? Does he think I’m FAA and will let him on the runway? Should I let him go? Does he know where he’s going or just thinks he does? Volunteers do not have 2-way radios, some monitor the controllers but not all, if he didn’t he has no idea what’s going on. Let's say, to be safe, the controller wants marshallers to know what’s going on. The MOOCOW (departure controllers) would have to call tower and tell them we going to let out a P4 departure. Tower would call FLO, FLO would call Vintage, Vintage would tell someone to jump on a scooter and tell the volunteer marshaller. How smooth do you think Oshkosh would run if all 10,000 aircraft got to do whatever they wanted?
True story. My first ever shift volunteering at FLO. I was positioned at Bravo 1 and 27. (now Bravo 3) My briefing, camping goes that way, departures that way, runway crossers down to Alfa and don’t let anybody onto the runway or cross here. Halfway through my shift the EAA B-17 comes out of Weeks, I direct him toward Alfa to cross, he shakes his head and points to 27, I shake my head and point to Alfa, he turns and starts heading toward me and the runway. I stood in front of him and put up the stop sign. He angrily points across the runway and I shake my head no. OK what do I do, I was told no one crosses here, but this is the EAA B-17 he should know what he’s doing? If I hold him will my supervise come out and say “what are you doing? EAA HQ called and said one of your guys is holding B-17 and burning up fuel.” If I let him go will I get yelled at “I said no one crosses here” or worse yet a departing aircraft crashes into him and he says “the guy waved me across.” Finally as he continued to inch forward I pointed to my scanner, pointed to the tower and hand signaled the ground frequency. This is what I heard…
Pilot: Oshkosh tower this is the B-17 at Bravo one, I need to cross over to the warbirtds and this guy wouldn’t get out of my way.
Tower: Where you at sir?
Pilot: B1 and 27 to cross.
Tower: Sir you need to go to Alfa and 27 to cross.
Pilot: Well I can’t turn around now.
Tower: Not really my problem.
The problem is sometimes the tower does cross them, but our volunteers don’t know about and once it happens others think they can do it too. So what’s the best way to avoid this situation in the video? Yes additional training of volunteers and pilots true. But ultimately EVERYONE following proper procedures would have solved this. Had the DC-3 taxied to Papa 5 as per NOTAMs and briefings he would have been near the MOOCOW told the controllers “I need to do a run up” (notice he called the controllers from P4 and said he was ready to go, he wasn’t he still had to do a run up). If he had been were he was supposed to be, the controllers could have seen and told him wait there’s a Cub behind you.
Well this got longer then expected but when I first viewed the video nothing bothered me, however the more I thought about it and replayed parts the more it got under my skin. The pilot in the last segment tried his hardest not to “blame” anyone but in the end blamed everyone but himself. About the Cub he said “I don’t know what he was thinking” I guess he was thinking “every plane I saw this morning took off from P5 he just turned onto P4, guess he’s going somewhere else”. If you engines were already running you don’t think the marshaller wouldn’t know you meant? “Big lesson to be learned” is follow procedures and the flagmen and don’t assume because you’re bigger or faster or you’re airplane costs more you should have special privileges, like cutting in-line for take off.
+Stephen Schrank - I really appreciate this insight. This is the sort of thing that I am glad is coming to light by sharing this experience. Please pass along officially or unofficially that I appreciate all the work the volunteers do at Osh. If any of the head ground ops people would like to do a follow up story next year about how they run things I am totally interested. Please have them email me flightchops at gmail dot com
I'll pass it along. It was the VAA flight line volunteers.
I love the idea of showing the world the work that's going on. And the least I can do is ask the people involved in organizing the flight line. It's incredible how much work and dedication they show for getting it all to work.
Great video Steve! :) I think the landing was not bad at all considering the setting!
Stephen Schrank ok
"FLO does not control Papa taxiway, that’s controlled by Vintage and Homebuilt. So I can’t speak to the their procedures"
"the marshallers are volunteers not professionals"
"I bet some may not know what a run-up is. Same goes for the varying experience of the pilots"
"Volunteers do not have 2-way radios, some monitor the controllers but not all, if he didn’t he has no idea what’s going on."
I don't mean to be cruel, but I've been flying for 14 years, and I'd sooner bungie jump with my wife's brassiere than risk my aircraft or my life at that three-ring volunteer circus you're running over there. What you described in your post, sir, has ALL the makings of a catastrophe waiting to happen. The fact that you've essentially excused all of it all because it's "volunteer" is nothing short of staggering... just unimaginably unprofessional. I'm sure as hell not going to be there when some weekend-warrior kills a bunch of people because of their "varying experience" levels (lol). The FAA will finally step in then and inflict some pain, same as they've done multiple times before. Ask the Reno Air Races how they feel about safety these days.
Why were they pissed at the DC-3 for the cub getting too close? That's like getting angry at a cat for a mouse getting too close.
Amazing... I had the chance once to get into a DC3 cockpit in France(registration F-AZOX, very nice one) but this beats my wildest dreams, this is stunning... And your "DC3 instructor/mentor" really seems a perfect instructor, very good at teaching, be it the specifics of the DC3 or basic things & skills I wish some instructors I knew woudl have told me... Like the thing about knowing what your meft hand does, andholding it firm and only moving it when and where you want your airplane to go somewhere... Sounds a little thing, but really important... Excellent video, loved it, thanks !!
Love the DC3, it's my all time favorite along with the Grumman Goose. Thanks for sharing Steve!
Def. Not your fault, marshals are there for a reason, and a real learning lesson for that cub too
Seems like the focus is on the "run-up". There could have been the same result if there were no run-up, but just a good bump of the throttle to taxi on to the runway. For me, crossing behind him even at idle would give me pause.
Your so lucky dude. Great channel. Keep up the fantastic content. Your going to go places my friend.
Fly safe
Casey
This might be one of my favorite aviation videos on UA-cam. How cool to actually fly a DC-3!!!
19:02 What's with the FLAMES coming out of the left side engine?
My guess is reducing throttle with rich mixture
That's old school planes for ya!!! Just like old cars, straight pipe full flooring it. Miss my 1990 Rx7 FC
Normal for old piston engines to do that sometimes
19:01 look at the engine on the right (from your perspective) fire shoots out the exhaust
It's not fire it's just a quick starve of oxygen to the engine so its pressurized fuel with no oxygen through the intakes nothing to worry about though.
Nice work Flightchops. Thanks to you and Steveo for sharing.
Best three landings I have seen. I fly a Cub and would never follow a large aircraft like that. The marshals definately need more training. I flew my Cub into Sun n Fun two times this year and the second time a marshal wouldn't let me go where I knew to go to park, instead he got all bent out of shape and directed me back out to the departure. I circled around and came up to the intersection I needed to turn left on not right like last time and fortunately he was sitting on a golf cart and I just waved to him, like it's me again and parked where I needed to.Good videos...keep them going.
I met you at oskosh 2017 at a dinner I was that little kid . You gave me flight chops stickers
+laura murphy - Osh was fun :)
i see steveo in the back haha
Great to see Steveo joining in! Huge fan of both of you! Brilliant vlogs
Hey Chops: what a treat. Thank you so much for arranging to have this recorded on video for all of us at home who will never get the chance to do this. Awesome! Thanks to everyone involved. :)
is that steveo1kinevo on the back?
Easy to spot it sitting here at my desk after the fact, but perhaps worth a look over the shoulder during the turn and noting who was behind you at that point? Then when the one behind at the start of the run-up's a different colour...
Awesome vid, I'm so jealous. :)
Yes, I thought the same thing looking at the footage afterward - it was really clear that the J3 had disappeared from the left wing cam, and I was thinking "how did I miss that?" - but then I remembered, "oh yeah, I was flying a DC-3 at Osh and I was totally saturated and over stimulated" :P
Yeah, that's not one they warn you about in the Human Performance and Limitations book :)
1:22 I saw and stood in front of that exact B25J at Millville airshow this year!
Watching this was a sensory overload for even the viewers. Love the DC-3 so much and getting to watch you fly this for the first time had even my heart racing. Great video as always!
"Im gonna talk you through the process and im not gonna touch anything Im gonna let you do it"
*proceeds to do the start up procedure without letting him do it*
Stevo1kinevo there in the background!
Makes me feel like I was part of the ride! Well done!! Love these vids!
Steve, I thoroughly enjoy watching you debriefs! As a pilot I thirst for improvement and seeing how dedicated you are to debriefing is a big motivation, even in the helicopter side of things.
Very cool video! And being one of those ground marshals (5 year veteran volunteer at Flight Line Operations) I just want to say the safety of you and your planes is only second to our personal safety. But just remember we are all volunteers with varying levels of aviation experience. But every single one of us it out there for one reason, WE ALL LOVE AIRPLANES! And we hate it when something unfortunate happens to an aircraft, but we are all human and we can’t avoid it all in the insanity that is Oshkosh. While incidences like the Cub in this video are rare, it is the risk every pilot runs when they fly into Oshkosh.
So I guess the point is, the flagmen need to be treat like the word God at Oshkosh. So many incidents involving aircrafts taxing at Oshkosh can easily be prevented by following the directions of the flagmen. It’s sad to see 1/3 of the pilots I personally see and handle blatantly disregard our instruction.
So finally, we are all out there for one reason, to see awesome airplanes! If we could all be a little more understanding and diligent, incidents like DC-3s pushing Cubs off taxi ways can be prevented! Hope to see you at Osh2018!!
+Adam Crail - thanks for your hard work and passion! and yes, we all share the same love of airplanes, and have the same goal of being as safe as we can. I will be there in 2018!
While i respect what you guys do and most times I will listen,the time you guys direct me to cross directly into a big birds propwash like a DC3 I'll tell you to go pound sand and hold my ground till i am clear.
Eh, the captain seemed a little cocky about the runup situation in his debrief. No one was completely in the right or wrong there, but I'm always VERY aware of who's behind me when I push the throttles up in the T-38, and it didn't seem like that was even discussed before doing so in this case. Mr Chops had the appropriate reaction to the situation
dyce189 being aware of traffic behind you is one thing. Having a pilot negligently park his plane way too close behind what is essentially a super high powered fan is on him. If I have to not perform my run up, or wait for you to relocate your plane to safely do so, I am not the one at fault. Unless the cub was there first and I negligently went around him and then blasted the prop, I did nothing wrong. Knowing he is behind me somewhere is not going to stop me from doing my run up; he should know enough to know to keep a somewhat safe distance as prop wash is going to be a factor with planes of these drastically different sizes. If he doesn't know enough to know that, the Marshalls should and direct him to stop well before it becomes an issue. If someone gets that close behind me, Marshalls should be trying to stop that from happening, as well as trying to inform me of such.
Everyone can always do better, but in my experience, speaking as a fueler and by proxy, a marshaller from time to time, it's a lack in common sense on the Piper Cub's part, and it was a failure on the marshaller's part. There was no agreed upon signal for the run up (is there one?), so both parties (marshaller and DC-3 pilot) can't possibly know what's going on. Flightchops could've been more aware, but how much do you really need to be? He has a lot to do in the seat, and there are huge blind spots in any aircraft, especially large ones. It's not like he was tunnel visioned.
In short, flight marshallers should've erred on the side of caution and held follow on aircraft in place. Piper Cub pilot should've had the sense not to get behind and perpendicular to a DC-3 so closely. I mean the difference between the two isn't small and prop wash isn't a foreign concept here.
I absolutely love the DC-3! I get goosebumps watching it it slowly climb away climb away from the runway.
When I saw your instagram post about flying the DC3 I was very excited to see you come past. Got a little more excitement than I bargained for, haning on to the J3, but I'm happy it all ended well. Very complex situation it was!
I and my mate went to see you straight from the flightline, as I was planning to do anyway :) Ran off to do a clinic before rushing out to see your very interesting social media meetup. An exciting day. Not a bad landing at all, btw, considering the setting! :)
Thanks, I'm wearing the Flight Chops patch on the orange flight line vest with pride!
+GoneOutFlying - Right on! And thanks for helping save the J3!