Did the Early Church Allow Gay Marriage? w/
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- I am joined by the world-famous Trent Horn as we look at Mason Mennenga's argument that the early church allowed gay marriage.
@masonmennenga Original video: • Who Were the first Gay...
Trent Horn and David Wood will be an epic discussion.
Yess!!!! @Trent Horn 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I like them both but David wood is more suitable of doing commentary on the trending issues about Islam & Christianity (over time he have already rebutted most of the Islamic false teachings) and Trent Horn is much more into the theology aspect of the Religion & rebutting the false teachings that mishandle Bible's passage or early church figures. They both are in different category of interest and both are needed in the religious landscape.
@@spencerd8504 would be a nice discussion, maybe with Vocab Malon or Matt Fradd
@@paul_321 David Wood was on Pints with Aquinas awhile back
Mason - "Conservative Christians make everything seem gay between close men and over sexualize things."
Mason - "Sergius and Bachus were way too close. They must be gay."
(IP makes the face) -_-
IP - "Does Mason realize he is doing the same thing as the conservative Christians he speaks of?"
Yes, but the difference is that the "conservatives" say "That's gay, don't do that," and he says "That's gay, and it's awesome."
@@jdotoz either way they are assuming sexual attraction when it is not evident or necessary for a close relationship. that was the point of my comment. Lastly, those who have not changed the word of God or character of God to fit their own desires or their own standard of morality should lead others from a path of sin to one of righteousness in love and kindness. this is not limited to sexual sin as well (which includes homosexual practices) but to all forms of sin.
I hate being defined by people who hate me.
I'm always portrayed as a straw man.
It fits his agenda soo hypocrisy is ok
The crossover we didn't know we needed.
Of course we knew these brothers are great
I know right?? Had to do a double take!!!! This is awesome
Ikr? They’re my two favorite apologists!
Mason reads church history the way fanfic writers read fiction
while blaming constantine (as per usual with modern idiots) -_-
@@willtheperson7224 the blaming Constantine is still something I really don't understand. It comes from a very basic failure to understand the Council of Nicaea, which is well documented and understood by Catholics and Orthodox Christians. There's no reason for protestants to see it as some evil thing, because most denominations also reject the heresies that Nicaea cracked down on. Most protestants are Trinitarian as well. I don't know when exactly this weird idea took off, but I feel like this is a fairly vocal AmeriProt minority thing. Most protestants don't care about Constantine unless they think Roman history is cool.
@@surprisedchar2458 Protestants are the ones blaming Nicaea and Constantine? No that's the conspiracy theorists and anti-christians.
@@surprisedchar2458 As a Protestant, I think we have great views of the Council of Nicaea. Its mostly atheists and Muslims who greatly misrepresent what happened
@@reaganlecroy7773 and nontrinitarian Christians
People hate on Skillet, because they're a Christian Rock Band that became mainstream and listened to even by secular people. "Monster" was a very popular song and it clearly wasn't all devout Christians listening to it. Secularists/Atheists hate the idea of Christian Rock Bands becoming popular. So, they feel the need to go out of their way to attack them even a decade after the height of their popularity. Of course, most rock bands in the US were made up of people who considered themselves Christians and had lyrics that were clearly influenced by Christianity, but it's when they overtly label themselves a "Christian Rock Band" that upsets the secularists.
Collide is an amazing album and he's probably mad that cooper condemned the pro gay "christians".
@@chase6579 More of us should condemn the phonies.
I love Skillet!
“Merely platonic” is such a modern idea.
We’re like, the only culture that values romantic love above all other kinds of love. That’s not normal in most cultures.
Agreed.
How easily profound love for you fellow man is swept away by the word "merely."
“Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend. The rest of us know that though we can have erotic love and friendship for the same person yet in some ways nothing is less like a Friendship than a love-affair. Lovers are always talking to one another about their love; Friends hardly ever about their Friendship. Lovers are normally face to face, absorbed in each other; Friends, side by side, absorbed in some common interest. Above all, Eros (while it lasts) is necessarily between two only. But two, far from being the necessary number for Friendship, is not even the best. And the reason for this is important.
... In each of my friends there is something that only some other friend can fully bring out. By myself I am not large enough to call the whole man into activity; I want other lights than my own to show all his facets... Hence true Friendship is the least jealous of loves. Two friends delight to be joined by a third, and three by a fourth, if only the newcomer is qualified to become a real friend. They can then say, as the blessed souls say in Dante, 'Here comes one who will augment our loves.' For in this love 'to divide is not to take away.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves
New International Version:
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New Living Translation:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New King James Version:
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For to the pure everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but their mind and conscience is defiled.
Contemporary English Version:
Everything is pure for someone whose heart is pure. But nothing is pure for an unbeliever with a dirty mind. That person's mind and conscience are destroyed.
Douay-Rheims Bible:
All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
GOD'S WORD® Translation:
Everything is clean to those who are clean. But nothing is clean to corrupt unbelievers. Indeed, their minds and their consciences are corrupted.
Good News Translation:
Everything is pure to those who are themselves pure; but nothing is pure to those who are defiled and unbelieving, for their minds and consciences have been defiled.
International Standard Version:
Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted.
NET Bible:
All is pure to those who are pure. But to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1
@@I9s7lam5is-S3tu1pid Isaiah 5:20: "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!" This verse condemns the mislabeling of sin as something pure or good.
Matthew 15:11: Jesus says, "What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them." This supports the idea that impurity comes from within a person, not from external things.
@@I9s7lam5is-S3tu1pid
What relation does this have to the CS Lewis quote? Because I don't understand your point.
@@ryanalving3785
What he's saying is two people can read something and to the pure, there's nothing wrong, but to someone of a corrupted conscience there's something corrupted with it.
It's very much in line with the cs Lewis quote
@eddardgreybeard
Ah that makes sense. Thank you
Big IP fan, big Trent Horn fan. Great to see you two together!!
These two are some of the greatest Christian debaters on UA-cam. Could you imagine if they tag teamed in a debate?
If they did, some scholars might say they are gay. lol
@@sunsetfuzz😂😂😂
If nothing else the woke LGBTQ crowd has successfully brought Protestants and Catholics together to fight their agenda haha
@@sunsetfuzz 😂
They did this to Alexander too. Dudes just cant be close friends/brothers without being called something by revisionists
Except Alexander did engage in same sex acts
And Abe Lincoln. They are convinced him and Josh Speed had a homosexual relationship, because Lincoln was melancholy and shared a room with him while they were in their twenties. It’s kind of sad, actually.
It's widely recognized that Hephaestion was Alexander's life-long lover, and has been for some time.
No. Alexander was a bisexual. And due to his upbringing, it is not a wonder.
New International Version:
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New Living Translation:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New King James Version:
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For to the pure everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but their mind and conscience is defiled.
Contemporary English Version:
Everything is pure for someone whose heart is pure. But nothing is pure for an unbeliever with a dirty mind. That person's mind and conscience are destroyed.
Douay-Rheims Bible:
All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
GOD'S WORD® Translation:
Everything is clean to those who are clean. But nothing is clean to corrupt unbelievers. Indeed, their minds and their consciences are corrupted.
Good News Translation:
Everything is pure to those who are themselves pure; but nothing is pure to those who are defiled and unbelieving, for their minds and consciences have been defiled.
International Standard Version:
Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted.
NET Bible:
All is pure to those who are pure. But to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1
Skillet is dope, I don't care what the mullet man says.
Yes mate. 100%. And they only get better with age. The lead singer has been so strong in his statements about popular 'Christian' musicians apostasising.
Imperfection is an amazing song.
I have noticed that people who don't understand platonic bonds and assume everything has to be sexual were mølēstëd as kids. 😕😢
New International Version:
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New Living Translation:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New King James Version:
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For to the pure everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but their mind and conscience is defiled.
Contemporary English Version:
Everything is pure for someone whose heart is pure. But nothing is pure for an unbeliever with a dirty mind. That person's mind and conscience are destroyed.
Douay-Rheims Bible:
All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
GOD'S WORD® Translation:
Everything is clean to those who are clean. But nothing is clean to corrupt unbelievers. Indeed, their minds and their consciences are corrupted.
Good News Translation:
Everything is pure to those who are themselves pure; but nothing is pure to those who are defiled and unbelieving, for their minds and consciences have been defiled.
International Standard Version:
Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted.
NET Bible:
All is pure to those who are pure. But to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1
Hey @InspiringPhilosophy, on the topic of LGBTQ people being a thing in the ancient world, I think you can have a conversation with Metatron. He has a history UA-cam channel and is a Christian and fights against this rewrite of history that you mentioned
That would be EPIC! But Metatron does not do religious content so not sure if he'd collab with him
Many people forget that the images of saints do not depict the person like a photograph, but rather symbolically represent their special characteristics,skills and their relationship with the Lord.
Often these drawings/mosaics etc. correspond to a picture story that tells about these people.
(If you have only heard the story about the people a few times, you can retell it using the pictures.)
Sometimes it is also "artistic freedom" to depict a description of a relationship from a text in to a picture.
That whole argument has "but Aragorn kissed Boromir's forehead" or "Frodo and Sam are gay coded" energy. (Edit, you said it lol)
And even if these two had a homosexual relationship, that still didn't make it right.
tbh if you even suggest that Sam and Frodo are gay-coded, you're not a true middle earth fan. And then saying that Aragorn and Boromir are gay just no. Same with claiming early Christians are gay.
@@jaden_skywalker it's practically anathema to these people to think you can have a deep relationship with someone that's not somehow founded in sexual attraction.
Woooow a Trent and Michael collab!! Love them both!
No homo.
xD
We don’t need a 2 hour discussion on this subject. The answer is a definitive no. The early Church knew the true Gospel of Christ, which is that He came to set us free of our sins, not leave us in our sins. As Jesus Christ Himself told us “He who sins is of the devil”. We must abide in Him and Him in us if we want to be saved, and if we are truly in Him and Him in us, He will set us free of all unrighteousness.
Actually before Jesus there was no sin. OK the Jews had some ideas about transgressing against their god but most of the gods didn't really care what you did just as long as you offered to them and they also didn't mind you offering to other gods. What Jesus did was to say to people 'I have a payment plan whereby you can pay me back the $100 you owe me' When people said 'What $100?" Jesus said 'Do you see that big fire over there?'
@@kevinkelly2162 I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about I’m afraid.
@@EaglesNest1984 I know ypu are afraid. That is the whole point of the big fire.
@@kevinkelly2162hey, convert from Judaism here, you don't know what you're talking about. Jesus didn't invent the concept of sin. Jews didn't just "have some ideas" about it, it was a major part of judaism before and after Christ
@@kevinkelly2162brenden just obliterated you
The Skillet hate is because John Cooper is an outspoken, conservative, anti-lgbt brother. That’s it.
Christian Metal is as based as it gets!
Facts. Bro went after Skillet and I'm like, aight gloves are coming off
John Cooper is mega based
@@TheoHawk316Technically rock but yeah. They are awesome.
Yep and you can hear it in their music too. They usually have at least one or 2 songs that are explicitly Christian songs, even moreso from their latest one in '22 and Jen, their drummer, has her own solo career now where she does the same thing. It's been consistent throughout their career, from their start as an explicitly Christian band in the '90s to "Lucy", probably my favorite song of theirs, about one of their friends who had deep regret after having an abortion and their psychologist saying to treat as a death in the family, to now. They've never compromised their faith and that's awesome with how well-known they've become in the mainstream rock scene.
This guy is like a gay Dan Brown, finding secret gay clues hidden in icons and paintings and descriptions
Those who are perverted can only see through the lens of sexual degeneracy and hyper-sexualization. Thank God for saving me ❤
Being a heterosexual, I have many female friends who weren't lovers. One has to have a sick mind to assume every friendship is sexual in nature.
Platonic friendships are the best and strongest. Sadly, quite rare in the modern world. When yo do encounter them, the uninitiated just assume that there is a sexual aspect to the bond.
That's exactly what we do have as a society.
I actually am of the opinion that men and women GENERALLY can't be friends without one of them developing a desire for the other. That's my experience anyway.
@@chase6579 This why we can't always trust our experience, especially when we are young and full of hormones. Those hormones often do our 'thinking' for us.
@@chase6579 , sad to hear that. I have two lifelong friends of the opposite sex. One of them has been my "bestie" for over 40 years, but there has never been any sexual desire between us. I have been married for most of that time; my spouse understands and approves this platonic relationship between my best friend and me.
Love the interaction between my two favorite contemporary Christian apologists! PLEASE do more work together in the future!
Mason, show us on the doll where Skillet and veggie tales hurt you
The lead singer of skillet has been very outspoken against the current trend within Christianity toward progressiveness and deconstruction, particularly among those within the Christian music scene.
Homosexuality has been around for a while but Gay Marriage is a completely modern concept.
Nah. Homosexuality- people identifying as who they want to have sex with- is a modern concept too. Homosexual acts were common in the ancient world, but you still got married and had children because that was your duty to your Polis/Rome.
@@stevencass8849homosexuality (sexual relations between the same sex) is not modern
@@jncon8013 I don't think he's denying that but identifying with ones sexual preferences is a fairly modern concept, which to be fair makes sense with how openly homosexual people were treated in the past
Gay marriage wasn't a thing until Obama legalized it.
Just because it's legal doesn't make it moral or to make it right!
@@josephhutchins8 You got it
7:29 As someone who has studied slavery in the Bible and Islamic books, I say with confidence that biblical slavery is a true mercy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that slavery is good, but biblical slavery is less bad than Islamic slavery.
Biblical slavery was still more moral than American Slavery too hahaha
It set boundaries for slavery, because otherwise, people would have thought there were no rules for it, and thus no restrictions on it. This laid the groundwork for its gradual abolition.
Missed it when was live. But watching it i am reminded of Proverbs 30:8-9
“Two things I ask of you, Lord;
do not refuse me before I die:
8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
The concept of a deep friendship is foreign to some people ‘,:(
The "Icon" that he used as "evidence" is from Deviant art by a gay artist, mkewx, with the tag line "Happy Pride Month". How deceitful. The rest of the icons I found online were of them standing close but not kissing on the mouth. He couldn't find anything real so he had to twist things, how can you trust anything else out of his mouth?
From St. Augustine on the loss of his best friend:
"At this sorrow, my heart was utterly darkened and whatever I looked upon was death. My native land was sheer torture to me and my father's house was a terrible emptiness, a terrible unhappiness. And whatever I had done with this friend of mine now that he was gone turned into terrible torture. My eyes looked for him everywhere. I sought him everywhere with my eyes but he was not granted to me and I hated all places because he was not in them; Nor could those places say to me 'look he's coming' as they did when he was alive."
Edit: Wait are people seriously thinking I posted this quote in defense of the position that Sergious and Bacchus were gay?
🤣. No Way!
"Those who cannot conceive of Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a friend." - C.S. Lewis
Imagine being so hypersexualized that you can't even conceive a non romantic relationship.
@@ElisWrite 🏆
@@ElisWriteAugustine also says in his retractions that he probably exaggerated that experience in retrospect.
@@catholiccrusader123 Expecting this person to be aware of St Augustine's retractions in his later life is a real stretch.
"There have been LGBT people from the beginning of history, so there must have been LGBT Christians since the beginning of Christianity"
There have been adults from the beginning of history, so there must have also been children who were adults from the beginning of history.
New International Version:
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New Living Translation:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New King James Version:
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For to the pure everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but their mind and conscience is defiled.
Contemporary English Version:
Everything is pure for someone whose heart is pure. But nothing is pure for an unbeliever with a dirty mind. That person's mind and conscience are destroyed.
Douay-Rheims Bible:
All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
GOD'S WORD® Translation:
Everything is clean to those who are clean. But nothing is clean to corrupt unbelievers. Indeed, their minds and their consciences are corrupted.
Good News Translation:
Everything is pure to those who are themselves pure; but nothing is pure to those who are defiled and unbelieving, for their minds and consciences have been defiled.
International Standard Version:
Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted.
NET Bible:
All is pure to those who are pure. But to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1
You're right, they were gay, amongst other things, and that's why Paul wrote all those letters to tell them to Stop It, Get Some Help.
Paul was a little insecure about his feelings, cut him some slack. I'm sure he preferred male travel companions just to be able to drink some brewskis with the boys.
@@AnyProofOfTheseClaims this username
@@AnyProofOfTheseClaimsah yes... having companions on long trips is definitely not the norm... stop sexualizing everything...
@@markwhite116 It wasn't the norm for the apostles, you're correct. They took their wives along with them.
@@AnyProofOfTheseClaims sometimes.
As brief as it was I loved your discussion about Lord of the rings, the next collaboration should be a long form discussion of the books (or movies), the Christian undertones, and the lessons Christians can learn from the books (as well as tolkiens Christian inspiration) I think 😉
I will never forget when people said Luca and Alberto were gay…perversion to the max
This reminds me of Titus 1:15 NIV which states:
"To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted."
Personally, when I was going to see Luca, when people started to say that Alberto and Luca were gay, it ruined the whole movie for me. They literally perverted what was intended to be a totaly platonic friendship.
Adelphopoiesis was basically the Christian version of pagan "blood brotherhood," which was very important to the Goths and other tribes/ethnicities in the East. It usually involved exchanges of blood, much like the playground version, but it may have also included pagan acts of sacrifice, pagan prayers, etc. So that would have been no bueno. Also it had no legal standing in the Church or the Empire.
A lot of Byzantine guys who were soldiers together would declare blood brotherhood in the heat of battle, or right before, or right after, and sometimes they wanted to make that a legal thing that would allow them to inherit from each other if one of them didn't make it. It was also pretty common for guys to decide that their battle buddy should marry their unwed sister, and a declaration of brotherhood would give their buddy standing in their family at home, if they didn't make it. IIRC, sometimes chaplains traveling with the army would record and keep these acts, because they were less likely to get killed in battle.
Adelphopoiesis in church, at home, was basically the same thing with more prayers and less battle stress.
I would love these streams to be on Spotify ❤️ thank u for your work
Trent has his podcast on Spotify. He normally puts all his videos on there.
Could ask him in his most recent video (as that is the best way to get your comment seen and replied to) if he could ask IP if he would be ok to post it there for his wider audience that listen to Spotify when driving etc
real interesting discussion. TY guys, keep up the good work !
He hates Skillet because John Cooper says things he doesn't like. Same reason he wouldn't like music made by St. Paul
"Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies."
~Pope St. Pius X, pray for us
I am basically required to defend Skillet, since a AMV of Comatose is what ended up introducing me to Avatar The Last Airbender. It's a service that I cannot repay.
This is honestly the first time I've heard hate towards them. I mean, they're definitely not Linkin Park, but they got some bangers.
@@JP-rf8rr I've seen people call them basic and surface level, but that's usually the extent of it
Great to see you both guys. Well done episode.
I find a lot of gay theory interpretations of male relationships in popular culture, entertainment or history is ironically rooted in the american homophobic cultural views everybody was subjected too.
The homophobes and the queer theorists basically share the same lens and agree on a lot of things, like two platonic men hugging being gay.
This a pattern I see with The Woke...they can't create anything so they need to take something you have that is of value and insert themselves into it. I'm reminded of that spoiled child you had to play with as a child that you didn't like but your mother made you and anytime you started having fun with a toy he'd cry until you gave it to him and then it wasn't enough that you gave him the toy but now he runs the toy through the mud and wants to bash you over the head with it and if you don't like it? He runs to his mother and says you aren't playing nice.
I see this in all The Woke movies...why don't they create their worlds and characters to tell their own stories and actually give us diversity? But nope they need to take the creations of better men....whom they despise and then insert their Woke characters into an already beloved franchise. They are a parasite.
Satan cannot create anything.
Evil cannot create, it can only corrupt as Tolkien would say.
"in the ancient times, same sex relationships were always exploitative, so that's why they're never portrayed in a positive light in the bible"
"consensual loving same sex relationships always existed, see!"
No kidding. Not only is that logic self-contradictory, it's also flat-out wrong. There were homosexuals who were in consensual relationships. The problem is, homosexuality is lust and not love, so homosexual relationships can never be loving ones. Hence why abuse is so common in homosexual relationships.
@@customarylover3857 Exactly. No need to mislead about the topic when the truth will suffice.
No. You can be in a loving same sex marriage. Homosexuality is not lust. I have been studying ancient Greek and ancient Roman views on sexuality lately.
@@DanielBevins-x5m I am merely pointing out that people frequently argue out of both sides of their mouth to justify their position. If you want to make the argument that consensual, loving, same sex relationships always existed in the ancient world, you cannot also make the argument that the reason that the Bible condemned same sex relationships is because same sex relationships in the ancient world were inherently exploitative. Those two arguments cannot both be true at the same time.
@Vagabond You asked IP about sourcing academic journal articles? I might add that JSTOR allows members of the public to view 100 free articles per month, just need to register.
"brah" about sums it up lol
Awesome to see Trent on the channel!
Great video, brother! 🙏
Great discussion. Thank you!
What is usually utterly missed in these conversations is that it's about this-worldlyness. Christianity hopes for the next world and accepts that in this world suffering will continue. Sexual fullfillment is a concern for this world. So insisting on the importance of gratifying one's sexual desires is already anti-christian. A true Christian with homosexual attraction should view it maximally as a minor nuissance that he isn't supposed to have sex. His hope is external life.
This is a really good observation, thank you. I've struggled to find a good way to talk to my G coworkers.
New International Version:
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New Living Translation:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New King James Version:
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For to the pure everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but their mind and conscience is defiled.
Contemporary English Version:
Everything is pure for someone whose heart is pure. But nothing is pure for an unbeliever with a dirty mind. That person's mind and conscience are destroyed.
Douay-Rheims Bible:
All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
GOD'S WORD® Translation:
Everything is clean to those who are clean. But nothing is clean to corrupt unbelievers. Indeed, their minds and their consciences are corrupted.
Good News Translation:
Everything is pure to those who are themselves pure; but nothing is pure to those who are defiled and unbelieving, for their minds and consciences have been defiled.
International Standard Version:
Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted.
NET Bible:
All is pure to those who are pure. But to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1
Jesus sacrificed his body for salvation, demonstrating that physical well-being and impermanent pleassures are not to be grasped. He didn't even grasp his divinity but emptied himself out for all.
easier said then done. which is why conversations around this need to be gentle and full of grace, cause sexual desire isn't something you can just "ignore" if a gay christian is to remain celibate, then it will be a life time of struggling, and you can't just say its an easy task. Imagine telling a straight person they are never to have any sexual thoughts or actions. its hard.
Exactly! Romans 8:5-9 “Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind controlled by the flesh is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind controlled by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.”
I swear people just be making ish up. 🙄
🎉Man I'd love to see David Wood and Trent Horn together!
I agree with Trent that it seems like maybe this June is little less Prideful(tm), which is hopefully indicating a trend of a course correction in the mainstream culture. Prayers for repentance and revival in the USA and abroad. All glory to God! ✝️
Gotta chat with a Catholic, those Protestant rumors were getting too strong 😂
He ain't beating the allegations
@@rayhanakram9912He’s like Spiderman, he’s not going to leak his identity
@@rayhanakram9912what are the allegations from?
What do you mean? IP is clearly catholic.
I suspect he's high protestant.
Love the sinner, not the sin.
Jesus is King!
Bruh Mason’s video is so pathetic Literally just yanking history out of context and twisting it to fit his narrative.
I interacted with him on this video (or an earlier one) and he admitted to speaking exclusively in bumper sticker slogans. Wow. Just wow.
What next, jesus was an alien, 😂😂😂
You know it’s coming.
Neil Degras Tyson would think so lol
I absolutely love Wesley Hills work on these topics. Perhaps y’all could interview him or have a dialogue with him on this.
Hey IP love youre videos Ive been scrolling on UA-cam and found and atheist channel called "philosophy: engineered" he has a lot of videos on the topic of apologétics failing and how Gods existence is not posible I'll like to see a video of you responding to one of hes videos with another christian like how you did here with mason. God bless 🙌
For at least a century, June was most known for weddings between men and women.
Dang Trent was on fire here! I need to listen to him more, he’s very knowledgeable and succinct in his delivery
Trent. Ancient Greece was not accepting of homosexual behavior. This is propaganda spread by gender ideologues. Metatron did a great video on this. Everyone like my comment so Trent can hopefully see it.
I'll just say this. The ancient Greeks and Romans were some messed up people. Calling out their perversion is not gay propaganda. Conservatives and Christians should not idealize the pagan societies - they were very evil.
Also Leather Apron Club did as well. He might have done his video before Metatron did
@@redpilledtrooper7523 Yeah, I saw that video as well. Good stuff.
@@wakkablockablaw6025 I love Leather Apron. He really talks about some really tense controversial topics that most of us in a comments section would have our comments deleted for.
@@redpilledtrooper7523 Indeed. I don't always agree with him but it's refreshing to hear opinions that go outside of what we're allowed to talk about.
Oh boy, anyone here ever heard of the queen james bible ? Mike winger did a good video on the queen james bible is just re writing the context of the 8 main homosexual verses saying its not about gay loving relations its on pagan rituals and same sex relations with minors and relations with slaves, so they re interpreted what we always agree those 8 passages meant in its historic and literary context.
Never thought i would see this collab happening, and yet, here we are.
Just do Melonie Mac's approach; call it what it is; sin. But be graceful about it, not judgemental but blunt, sweet and to the point
People like this also think "loneliness epidemics" are problems (they are), and do not connect these dots. The need to consciously maintain these walls, even to be aware of them, necessarily separates the relators. They can't engage in brotherly love, because "love is love".
Thanks for what y'all do!
The quips built in Masons video are neither funny nor original, they seem forced and all they do is interrupt the flow of the video to make the viewer cringe.
I think I just realized what that offensive joke was supposed to be. 😆 Finally my mind can rest.
What was the joke?
@@joecoolmccall
I may ofc be way off but my guess is that it was a play on Larry being a cucumber.
1:15:45 did AP's wife convert to Orthodoxy?
Yes she has. She was on Sam Shamouns stream a few days ago and she publicly confirmed that.
@@alisterrebelo9013 praise the Lord ✝️
@@TandemSix Indeed, while I'm Catholic, nothing would make me happier than to see AP join his wife in the Orthodox Church, they who are my brethren in Christ. ✝️
@@alisterrebelo9013 I am Protestant, but a soul saved is a saved soul ✝️
@@TandemSix I agree about AP, and I have no ill-will towards you. If you've been water baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and you are a Trinitarian, I would consider you a brother in Christ.
Dude he basically just said that Consatine making it illegal to kill of Christians on a systemic level was the worst thing in Christian history..
Also, what’s with all the band references?
Does he think this makes him seem with it, or something?
"Constantine took away all the hipster coolness of Christianity. Bad Constantine, bad."
Excellent stream. Trent Horn is a brilliant fella.
I would agree that there are same sex Christian’s all throughout Christian history, for the same reason that Christians have always been sinners; doesn’t mean you get a free pass on your sin though.
Mason makes it sound like people are put forward for canonisation into sainthood based upon sins committed.
You know his puerile jabs at Skillet seriously detract from his credibility if he you know actually has any I mean the whole thing feels pretty "seventh grade lunchroom" to me
LETS GOOOO!! THE 2 GOATS OF CHRISTIAN SOCIAL MEDIA COLLABING
I hear "there was lgbt in ___" the same way I hear "Jesus was really Arian"
For sustained male homosexual relationships there is a requirement for the availability of antibiotics and social services which allow for their distribution. That is probably why these relationships are more common in modern times.
Mason reminds me of the dude that said Jesus was trans cause he wore a "dress". Not realizing that there where robes and garments for men and women.
I'm a man and I have a small circle of male friends that we love each other deeply and those bonds were forged by going through tough times together. Men can be close to each other and have a passionate relationship without it being sexual. Has he never seen a man crying at another man's funeral?
Even in English Love can be expressed as a sexual, intimacy. But also is used for a friend, family, pet dog, guinea pig or Spaghetti Bolognese! 😂
So saying a word could be used for an intimate sexual relationship..... Is disingenuous.
What spaghetti and I do behind closed doors is my business
They are chilling because it is in election year.
Pretty sure they're chilling because their nation is at war again
It’s mostly just sad that modern people can’t comprehend the deep friendship these guys had.
New International Version:
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New Living Translation:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted.
New King James Version:
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
For to the pure everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but their mind and conscience is defiled.
Contemporary English Version:
Everything is pure for someone whose heart is pure. But nothing is pure for an unbeliever with a dirty mind. That person's mind and conscience are destroyed.
Douay-Rheims Bible:
All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
GOD'S WORD® Translation:
Everything is clean to those who are clean. But nothing is clean to corrupt unbelievers. Indeed, their minds and their consciences are corrupted.
Good News Translation:
Everything is pure to those who are themselves pure; but nothing is pure to those who are defiled and unbelieving, for their minds and consciences have been defiled.
International Standard Version:
Everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted.
NET Bible:
All is pure to those who are pure. But to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1
If you don't listen to Skillet's music at least go listen to what he has to say about the world Christianity and all I believe you would really like that IP
Algorithm, btw i love Skillet
28:59 I do agree that the hyper-sexualization especially in the West needs to put some brakes, not stop sexual expression completely like we used to have, which is the reason why we have hypersexuality now more openly is because of the extreme false purity culture before the sexual revolution were basically you can never healthily sexually express yourself, now we can but we have hyper sexualized it to where we need to pump some brakes.
Like inspiring philosophy said if little boys are taught you can never show any type of affection towards one other which follows from the religious Conservative Christian aspect of if a boy shows any femininity they're either quite gay or they've been indoctrinated to be trans or whatever, and if that boy wants attention his father and if he's quite feminine then he'll just turn trans or be as gay as he can be even though he's not any of those things because of the sometimes strict conservative Christian gender role standards of men and women so in a sense of the way it comes back to the conservative Christians because sadly speaking the reason why some boys don't want to be share affection or talk about their feelings towards other boys because they've been told if you do that you're gay and it's about to be gay.
If they were flagrantly committing mortal sin they would not be saints. If they rejected God in such a manner, they would not have died for him.
Man, when I had Twitter, I used to argue with Mason all the time. He's very disingenuous and antagonist because he's a proponent of process theology but he won't be clear or transparent about his presuppositions until he's backed into a corner.
The greatest argument AGAINST LGBTQ+ and the morality thereof is how accepting these practices have killed off adult friendships. You can't befriend your fellow adults when there are no sexual limits to ensure that your relationship won't be misconstrued, so everybody is bowling alone to avoid such misinterpretations. Don't tear down fences until you know why they were built - the limits on gay sex etc. had some real utility (in that adult friendships were easier in the context where same sex sex wasn't celebrated)..
I find the tone and argumentation of this typical among progressive Christians. Cast ahead with innuendo, insinuation, then rattle off a whole lot of nothingness delivered with overconfidence. It's frustrating and feels dishonest.
IP what's up with your hair style...😅😅 Great video with Horn
These two vs Matt Dilahunty and Aaron Ra pls
I know Trent has to deal with continuously explaining “arsenokoitai” but when he uses “man-bedders and softees” as the translation, I just wish he would use the more apt modern terms of “cruisers and twinks” because that’s exactly what Paul is referring to in his two terms: cruisers and twinks, neither of which denote exploitation
Guy: this is the true history of Christianity!
Also guy: *gets the person who made Christianity the official religion of Rome wrong in about the first minute of the video*
Well this is off to a good start…
Skillet is fine, the guy sounds like he wants to vent some pent up bitterness.
15:18 I like Skillet's music but maybe not their artists which is what some people have a problem with because apparently the leader of Skillet is quite extreme in his political views.
It honestly just sounds like he "decided" that things would mean whatever he wanted them to mean in order to support his opinion or talking points on the subject. And I agree on the topic of how progressives seem to (on one hand) talk about how many different types of relationships can exist, but then (on the other hand) if two men really care about each other, like super besties, then "they must be gay!". "Everyone is gay" if it benefits the LGBT platform against material that's traditionally considered innocuous and non-sinful. Homosocial relationships only exist if it's already part of the progressive LGBT movement.
You should debate Matt Baker from UsefulCharts
Why would Mason expect an invite to watch his video? Wouldn't that be super awkward?
I'm a catholic and I would like to be better, but I can't talk to women without thinking of the sexual aspect. Can you please pray for me?
Yes. And if you're looking for good prayers and guidance, research the story of St.Mary of Egypt. And pray for us as well.
@@Malygosblues thank you, I will