Hades Developers React to 25 Minute 'Fresh File' Speedrun
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- Опубліковано 6 лис 2020
- Hades is a game where the main character Zagreus tries to escape hell over and over. But speedrunner Vorime says "No thanks" and just does it in one try! So ride along with Supergiant Games' Amir Rao (Studio Director) and Greg Kasavin (Creative Director) as they watch and react to one of the coolest speedruns we've seen yet!
Check out more from speedrunner Vorime here:
/ vorime
#ign #gaming #speedruns - Ігри
Hermes would actually love the concept of speedrunning.
He does mention it when you have the ingame timer when you turn it on
@@D055__ nice
His keepsake is made for going fast too.
Coz
@@D055__ Nice
You've gotta wonder what this looks like in-universe. One day Zagreus wakes up, decides to break out of the underworld, and then less than half an hour later he's standing over his dad's corpse, panting a bit, "well, that was easy. Weird, how people say this is so hard!"
It is established that Zagreus has been trying to escape for some time now. That wasn't his first attempt.
yea if he never had ANY experience before this then that would be extremely exceptional. everyone knows that this isn't true. he spent hundreds of hours before mastering.. but gg I like the comment anyway..
Yeah as stated below, he has been trying we only start the game once nyx successfully contacted Athena for the first time.
Spoilers
@@LureThosePixels I mean, if you watch a full speed run you usually don't mind spoilers
I got to hades for the first time a couple days ago and thought I killed him until that bastard refilled his health and killed me.
Happened my first time too
I think most of us had that happen
Oh boy does he have _much_ more in store for you
@@DeeMulaah oh no I only made it to him by accidentally getting op where I could kill everything with my special. I still can't beat the third boss actually
You're not the only one who has Death Defiances.
“Hug your dad to win the game” also accurate from a lore perspective
what dad?
ModCheck Dad?
Unless your dad went out for cigs or lottery tickets and never came back.
The tonal shift at that point is very satisfying
@@Karlach_ !dad
Zagreus: Goodbye father, I’m leaving
Hades: You’ll come back
*2 hours later*
Hades: Huh guess he _did_ leave
*25 minutes later 😂
I mean hades doesn’t know exactly when zagreus finished so
@@iggynacho5947 but....Hades himself is waiting at the gates of the underworld to stop Zagreus before he can leave. He is literally the last step that Zagreus has to get through in order to leave the underworld. Lol why would Hades be saying "huh guess he did leave", if he just went to the surface and battled his son, was killed and awakened in his home in the underworld....Obviously he would know that Zagreus left.
@@niklasschutta8349 ...
@@kolcrap7063 I feel the need to say the length of an average spongebob episode is 30 minutes long
Lord Hermes would be thoroughly impressed
Meanwhile lord Hermes : Actually, I'd rather be called TASbot now!
Underrated
isnt it wild that there are few replies in this comment
@@stormedmint3325 kinda yeah
Imagine if he had the Hermes boon, by the end of the fight he'd be nigh invincible
0/10 run - did not greet shade friend in elysium
Ain't she coming later in the game?
@@vatrasV The non-gender specific shade fan can be seen during the Elysium boss fight.
also 19:42
@@askmeagain43 Oh shut up. "non-gender specific". Who tf cares. We can say she, or he, who cares? Why even mention that at all?
@@hrothgarnogar jesus man relax
This instance of Zagreus really just woke up and chose violence huh.
No. Violence is never the answer...
It's a question,
And the answer is yes.
Almost said "Achilles would be proud" but come to think of it... >.> Now PAT? Patroclus would be proud.
More that Hades chose violence
So... the voice of Zagreus... is in fact... the best Zagreus of the Dev Team.
How appropriate!
i think the best zagreus was darren korb not cunningham :o regardless both people are great
@@eralps Darren is the voice of Zagreus. Cunningham is Hades
@@lcintra_ :o dang it i love them both
No wonder he SOUNDS that cocky, he has a right.
mystic thing yk
The supportive shade was the single best inclusion in the game.
What about petting Cerberus?
@@EtamirTheDemiDeer i played after the pet was included. I thought it always was a thing.
wish that we could romance the supportive shade. give him a role kinda like bouldy where he gives you a perk for that run
Honestly, i feel the need win the bosses just to talk with the supporting shade
It took me a while to notice the supportive shade. When I finally did, I wondered if slowly more supportive shades would show up and Zagreus banners would go up in place of Theseus's. Only a little disappointed that it's just the one supportive shade the whole game.
This speedrun is so fast I was surprised he didn't beat Hades to the surface.
hades still has a 25 minute headstart lmao
Hades be like: "Hah he'll never get past Meg... what's that? He's past Theseus?! Quick cloak and tp in the admin chamber."
Imagine if you could actually do that
*Zag walks out onto the surface*
"Huh... Maybe he finally got the memo and didn't come."
*Hades appears*
"Or... Not. What took you, Father?"
"Do not make light of me, boy."
*Battle starts*
@@carlcunningham7750 This could straight up be dialogue from the game.
I literally *just* figured out what Ares's curse is.
It's the sword of damocles.
oh my...you're right. and that also explains "impending doom" as a boon name.
oh. oh!! oh wow!! I didn't realize this before!
Brooooooo
Well noticed, didn't realize it myself. Thanks for the hint
Funny enough, in Greek mythology it was Dionysos feasting with Damokles, when Dionysos put up his (or "a") sword in advance above Damokles' head.
"Honey, school starts in 30 Minutes!"
"Okay Mom, lemme just play through Hades real quick!"
Literally
Literally?
Literally
Literally...
Litter Ally
Lesson learned: Hug Your Dad
Best advice ever, regardless of in game or irl.
What if I don't have one-
Same
@@decoy9854 *laughs in asexual*
Hades: You'll never escape the underworld!
Zagreus: Hold my sword (stabs Hades)
I actually really like to fish in this game. There were plenty of times were I was bored with the run, but everytime I saw a fishing spot I was like "I can't die on this run, gotta fish that". It just gives a different motivation to you
man i died to the final boss who had like. a microfraction of his health left. i wasnt even mad about that. i was mad because i couldnt fish at the point i had seen before the fight started 😔
saaaaaammmme I take all the time in each chambers looking for fishing spots, and when I reach Hades, Im hyped af to finish the fight just to fish.
I Love fishing mini games in general
Plus the fish you get on the last floor gives the best resources, so if you die that's a big yikes
my friend was mad with me because I was so happy when I defeated hades because there was a fishing spot behind him that I really wanted to get, whilst my friend still hat trouble with beating Hades in general :D
Bro one run started off with Posidon's legendary fishing boon and I was so determined to beat Dad so I could fish on the surface 😭 (I died but it was the closest I had gotten to beating him at the time which made me all the more sad lol)
Whenever I beat a boss I always think I died.
same.
“You could get pretty unlucky in terms of what mobs Hades spawns on you”
*Flashbacks to the he summoned Voidstones*
I groaned so hard when I saw them
The big chariots are pretty awful too
@@spatzist the small ones are so much worse in my opinion
@@Tall-Hobbit I see those things in my nightmares... why are they so quick and mean
You can hug Hades and avoid the attack?!?!?! I’ve sunk well over 100 hours into this game and I’m only just finding this out 😭
Only works for base hades not the enhanced one
yes, but this doesn't work under extreme measures :)
"hug your dad to win the game". just say you are playing to character. zag wouldn't hug his dad so im not hugging zags dad.
It's very difficult to do as well, IMO. One wrong step and you're lazer toast. High risk damage mitigation is rarely the best move, even for folks like us at a couple hundred hours.
@@thedude5120 What do you mean 'enhanced' Hades?
The guy they’re talking about who did a “no-hit” run on Hades is Haelian, great streamer, check him out!
I think he called it Full AFK Hades Fight which is seriously accurate lol. Great run!
Speed run are definitely not my thing. I prefer raw gameplay. If that's what you like then all power to you
@@ahabrawgaming1289 So why are you here?
@@ahabrawgaming1289 No, you're not?
@@SpeakLouderAHHHH but i am?
Compare how the developers in this video react in this video to other videos on this channel. Instead of "What? No, that's not...ugh!" Supergiant says, "Oh yeah, Vorime, he's a great member of our community. We planned for this speedrunning category specifically with special in game dialogue. A lot of other speedrunners focus on this category instead."
Straight quality and dedication, Supergiant. Your games are the best in the business. AAA wishes their games had half the polish and care yours do.
Yeah, the two are incredibly down to earth. Was really fun and informative. And it’s really great that they know and care so much about their game.
Personally I watch this series for the "What? How? What!" reactions.
Great studio. But just a small correction to your comment; Supergiant specifically says in the video that they didn't build the special case of beating Hades on your first go because of speed runners, but because of continuity errors with Hades referencing your trying again to get here ... which you haven't on your first go :)
At this point the "how do you feel about cutscenes / dialogue being skipped" has become a staple that not even supergiant games were able to avoid.
Unlike many speedruns, this one doesn't really break the game. It's just playing very efficiently and skillfully. A lot of the "What? No, that's not..." comments tend to come when runners just completely break the logic or physics of the game in an unforeseen way. Getting out of bounds or such. Which is honestly a very valid response imo
"Counter your dad's biggest attack by giving him a hug" sounds pretty on brand, TBH.
I love how you can tell how well connected with their community they are.
Anyone who is watching this and hasn’t played the game, do yourself a favor and get it if you can. It’s hands down the best game I’ve played this year. It’s truly a masterpiece of a game.
Waiting for a Steam sale right here.
My hype is outstanding!
It's a mastapiecee
@@shiatsu934 it was on sale a couple days ago 😭 it's worth full price tho
@@walterclements2 i know, but i didn't knew the game😭😭😭😭😭
I feel so bad...
The full price is about 20 bucks? That's really cheap for all the content and amazing game play. But there's discounts on top of this low price?! Wow SGG rocks.
You're telling me on top of everything else, Darren Korb is a master of the game itself as well with a 12 minute speedrun!? The guy is a virtuoso!
I all rng really getting the right boons, getting used to the mechanics is pretty simple. I dont fconsider this a speed run since he doesnt do much other than play the game?
im pretty sure its a run with maxed out gear and that they are talking about ingame time. the speedruns for that are all sub 5 minutes by now, real time 14 minutes ish
@@synka5922 i dont think that he was really focused on going ASAP, so its quite a result
Wait, when do they mention Darren Korb speedrunning?
Around the Hydra fight they mention the best times from the team.
WTF Greg Kasavin worked on Hades? This dude used to do the best reviews for Gamespot back in the day.
He wrote/was the creative director for Bastion/Pyre/Transistor too.
Was so hyped for XIII remake , but it's a disappointment
IGN
Yeah, I remember watching a clip of him in interview during the release for Transistor. He's worked there from the beginning at Supergiant I think.
@@ilieiancu6973 No - Greg worked for GameSpot. I worked there with him.
Devs seem knowledgeable in this one. It shows they care about about and understand the game. Ive watched other videos like this where the devs didnt really understand what was going on or why.
While true, a lot of the other ones involve clipping, shooting through walls etc. Basically, bug exploitation, everything that happens in this run is just using intended design to it's fullest extent.
When the game studio is small developers often also test and design the game etc. In big companies some developers may spend all their time on a very single feature and even have no idea about the name of a game they develop!
@@artodegraef4529 Came here to say this, no need as you've done a fine job.
The Cuphead guys were super knowledgeable
Indie devs usually be like that
There's this thing that happens where my mouse cursor just automatically goes to double click on Hades on my desktop everytime I see a video of it.
With me my clocks are bugged. It goes from 12pm to 5 am without me noticing
Why people playing Hades with mouse and keyboard? it hurt my hand just remembering it, switch to controller if you love your wrist.
@@KurosuKirie you would still need mouse or keyboard to open the game, can't use controller here
@@KurosuKirie because a decent controller costs 900₺ here. Not even my headphones are that expensive.
@@KurosuKirie, because keyboards are comfortable
Dang Vorime synced up the health bars on Theseus and Asterius so that Theseus' little pause before getting olympian aid happened the same time as Asterius falling
That's just an efficient use of time while Theseus is in his impervious state. And the way that attack works is he'll call on a random Olympian who you don't have a boon from, so if you know this going in you can actually plan your route a bit. Every Olympian has a different pattern. So if you don't want him to use a specific attack against you, try to gain that god's boon on the run.
Isn’t the Minotaur meant to be called Asterion? Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong
with the right set up you can't end up killing both at the same time ive done it a couple times
@@gladius7583 it’s Asterius
darren having the fastest run on the team is so poetic
true lol
Watched almost all devs react to speedrun series. These 2 was the most connected ones with the speed running community by far.
Don't forget the Celeste one as well.
@@SorinPetrov Did they also know the speedrunners by name as well?
They just commented for the AGDQ 2020 Hades run as well.
Divine Dash definitely best boon.
I'm sorry but that's not how you spell Scintillating Feast.
@@Ashtarte3D well if we're talking duo boons, then there's definitely a lot of crazy ones that are pretty top tier. Divine dash is a really great boon you can get a lot of value out of with whatever weapon you bring.
100% S tier
Nah. If youre a beginner sure but I much prefer the dash from Poseidon. Combined with extra dashes and a powerup that one mauls through enemies
@@tunod- for damage I like zeus dash. With jolted or double strike and extra dashes it gets really powerful
"the part where he didnt even talk to the friendly shade"
elder bug feels your pain.
Amir, Greg, Jen, Darren and everyone else at Supergiant deserve all the praise this game gets. You guys are literally the only developer that has never disappointed me once and I can't wait to see where you take us next.
Ashley and Logan are two of my personal favorites. But yes. For sure my favorite devs. On what is comparitively a shoestring budget these people are routinely embarrassing the AAA industry. I don't even watch their trailers or read reviews to find out if the game is for me anymore. I buy these sight unseen since pyre and Hades did not let me down one bit.
Proper devs. Absolutely proper.
Even If part of me wished Hades was Bastion 2 and still a rogue-like. Haha.
@@tharrock337 EA: 70$ games are fair
Supergiant: Hold my game.
They are taking us to Hades 2, apparently.
"You don't have to be this way" is my favorite line from this
I love the fact that the Devs were only 'offended' by him skipping the unique dialog.
I meant 'offended' in the mildest sense of the word.
Greg and Amir are just two of the great people behind a great game.
Only playing hades a few days now, have died many times and not past second boss yet.. watching this is pretty mind blowing
Yesterday I got to Hades for the first time
@@victorhugo3952 Is it as fun as it seems?
@@swenpai It is. It's the only game I've been playing since I got it a few days ago
the bat girl, or the skull snakes? im 3 hours in and just beat those snakes for the first time, the game is hard but so much fun
@@swenpai it's very fun, and hard. The best feeling is when the stars align and you get godly boons
I like how they're explaining all boons and combinations the speedrunner is using.
That’s too funny, the Voice of Zag also had the fastest time on the team. He really sat there and said “IM HIM, IM THAT GUY!” 🤣
Darren Korb is truly a renaissance man
i want to thumbs up but this already has 69 likes....
2 nice or not 2 nice
This made me buy the game, the devs seemed to have so much passion for the game. Now, 5 weeks later and 50 attempts down, I only now realize how very impressive this is lol
Supportive shade ALWAYS gets my time of day. Every run.
you guys should bring some speed runners onto the show to react to their own speedruns along side the developers. i feel that speed runners pick up a bunch of little mechanics in the game that might not have been intentional and explaining then to the devs might bring an interesting perspective that could lead to cool design decisions in the future
They did this once and it ended up being that the speedrunner just talked the whole time rather than it being a conversation
You would enjoy the pychonaughts dev reaction speedrun. Hes in the room with them iirc
Just watch the battle for bikini bottom speedrun react and you'll now why the fans stopped asking for it
Now I'm looking for the "Get Laid any% any character"
I'm sure tomatoanus will make a video for it
Dusa% 😢
@@maxspencerkarinen6463 I really, really hope he will. I especially want to listen to his explanations.
@@evilredflame Yeah fudge them on that decision
Voice of skelly and zagreus are the same!! That's insane the 2 voices I immediately liked
The complexity of the dialogue flags is remarkable.
Hades is easily my game of the year, 10/10 masterpiece!
It has become one of my favourite games of all time now. My favourite is GTA San Andreas, but Hades could actually kick it off my personal throne.
Same.
Didnt this game come out 2 years ago
@@proffesornugget1613 early access came out 2 years ago v1.0 just came out recently
You guys... have extremely poor taste in games.
This category is bananas difficult. I have sub-10 runs, and 32 heat runs, I have tried several first runs, and I made it to Elisium once.
i'm right there with you bro. smh...
is that so. how arrogant of me to go for it when my pb is like 18 minutes and 12 heat lmao.
Its actually rare to see a speedrun this tight without major glitches. Very impressive
Can we just stop to appreciate the angle of the blade rift he launched at 19:20.
Perfect.
Installed it this morning, several runs, sore thumbs, a lot of satisfaction and exhaustion later. It's evening already. Closest I got to was kicking Hades' butt and thinking woooh I did it then promptly getting rekt in his second phase...
Not only is Darren an amazing musician, he also is a secret speedrunner :o
i got this game a few days ago and its probably my favorite game Ive ever played. What gets me is that even when you die and you lose a lot of progress, there is really no rage because the game is so enjoyable and replayable, thats what I enjoy about rogue-likes, the fact that no single run is the same.
Zagreus have GODS and anime on his side.
You qualify for an Internet Veterans Discount 🎖️
@@annonymous7286 That i do lol
This game isn't anime
@@vghdiddy wooosh
@@vghdiddy it's a reference to an old vine
Listening to how much these devs know about their game shows hours of dedication. I'm buying this today
You mean to tell me that I've been playing for 80+ hours and all I had to do to beat Hades is hug my dad!?
Bloody Hell
All that athena early on is GG, Divine Dash with her special for vorime is a lock.
all hail Darren, master curator of vibes
24:37 so if you just hug dad you don't get hit by his deathbeams?
Apparently
Yes, but with Extreme Measures maxed you can't do it anymore.
That sounds wholesome and disturbing out of context.
Yeah but be careful with moves that move you. Most casts, for example, will push you back into the lasers
man i remember when greg kasavin was in gamespot doing reviews
He was my favourite reviewer back in the day. Great to see him make awesome games now
Same :D
10:26 "of course the real timer stops for no one"
because "Time... cannot be stopped."
Why does the thumbnail look like a partnership with Doritos?
lmao
R/blessed comments
"Nacho Cheese, Hades!"
I'd buy a Hades Cheese flavor! Love me some heat
This dude: clear Hades under 30 min
Me who hasn't got past Elysium: "you know.. I'm something of a gamer myself"
EDIT: Got past Elysium and went to fight Hades. Hades defeated me with 3% HP left.
I got the game like 5 days ago, just made it past Elysium this morning and it took so much effort just to stop my hands from shaking the whole boss battle lmao. A real challenge to say the least
if you kill asterius first its easier :)
You got this homie! I just made it out of Elysium for the first time literally an hour ago haha if I can do it, you definitely can!
if you kill Asterius first you won't really have any problem dodging Theseus's Call and Spear
That’s how I am with all of my gamss
Didn't even give the helpful shade the time of day. Dude, it was so many attempts before I even realized that shade was even THERE.
Extremely insightful, smooth, and funny commentary. It's rare to see commentary like this, well done
11:29
Darren Korb had the fastest time on the team? What can't this man do?
Its so cool to hear Greg Kasavin again. Such an awesome reviewer/writer/director.
14:00 Reference to the Haelian revengeance run I think. Thanks Greg & Amir!
Either that or JPs video he posted a week or so ago. Shoutout to both of them and everyone who's been on the journey since very early EA, so happy to see all the praise and love for Hades now that 1.0 has hit!
I'm a little bit sad that this run was not by Haelian. Been watching him since I played Hades.
I like games like this for speesrunning. Speedrunners can become so mixed up in exploits and glitches that they become separated from the game altogether.
true, it's nice to see a game where it's just super clean play and game knowledge (and maybe cheating through a gate or two :p)
Even the games where any% does exploit glitches there's usually a glitchless catagory
This game is awesome! I haven't finished yet and I've died 100 times. The only game I have ever played where u get excited to die, just to learn something new. Thx for creating something this amazing 😊
The way that his fresh file, no upgrade Stygian Blade run was a full minute faster in game time than my best fully upgraded time
The boys at Supergiant are absolute legends.
This speedrun legitimately make me buy the game. The devs are cool too
Fun video, but I'm more happy I learned about the hug the superlazer to keep dealing damage. It'll be way more efficient than hiding behind a a rock.
Must say it brings back memories listening to Greg Kasavin, loved watching his reviews on GameSpot but i stopped going there when he was no longer part of the team showing how much a single person can contribute.
Greg, ur narration and dialogue input makes me keep playing this game. I just love the Greek mythology that u tied in.
I've just finished my 40th completion yesterday and I'm only finding out now you can sit inside Hades' death beam circle...
wow
it's like a veil has been lifted from my eyes
That was amazing. Now I want to see other builds and hear the developers commentate.
I was personally hoping he'd have to fight the tiny vermin
Love developers that know and appreciate the speed running community
An interesting thought I had - even if you could get the Soul Catcher miniboss in Elysium, I'm not sure you would actually prefer it over Asterius. Not only do you not actually have to fully kill him to have the match called, and the Soul Catcher's spawning can make the minions left over once it's dead hard if you've been playing a single-focus weapon and not heading off to the sides (like the Styigan Blade functions as, mostly), but getting Asterius as the miniboss technically makes the Theseus fight easier, since Asterius starts with reduced health. Food for thought.
I never knew there were combos to the boons based on what you had. I definitely have to try this now. It might be able to push me over the edge. I just barely can't beat Hades.
Awesome run of the game, great work.
So this is my story:
I downloaded the game after watching this video.
I really thought it's that easy as it looks here.
.....yeah, me too. Got past the first boss and then got DESTROYED in Asphodel on my first run. The next 3 ended nearly the same... lol
Really cool to watch this speedrun with the developer insight! Learned a lot!
I wonder what they meant with "special dialogue" when he beat him first time. Like I stopped every frame of the video and Hades says exactly the same things to you if you clear it after a few tries. Can someone explain?
I was wondering the same thing too.
me too. help!
It's a very slight change - normally Zagreus mentions Hades mustering his shades to kill him repeatedly. However, here, since he's yet to be defeated, Z boasts that Hades sent "incompetent wretches" to _try_ to kill him.
"Mustered your wretched forces to kill me, over and over." vs "Mustered a bunch of incompetent wretches to try and kill me"
@@Wiwiwab ahh thank you!
I didn’t realize how close I was to beating the game on my first try. I died at the minotaur and archer.
I really enjoyed Dead Cells but played it to death, so it was nice to have this as an alternative. Both great games in the genre.
You might also try curse of the dead gods
I love how you guys made this series tnx I owe you one
The fact your composer loves the game more than you want to complete is sells this game to me so much. What a work of art. Also he's the voice of Zag??? Bro...
the hardest thing for me is that with a fresh file you only got one dash
And then there's me 20 hours in with 0 escapes :(
You'll get there eventually. There was a time where I thought I would never be able to beat Meg
I successfully escaped during my 43th attempt and today I beat the game, don't worry you will get there eventually :)
You'll have your day. Keep at it. I was in my 30th hour before my first clear.
You'll get there bro, don't worry, it took me like 22 hours to get my first escape too, if it's any help, my first successful run was with the shield, i grabed poseidon boons to boost knockback and cleared rooms pretty easlily, i also grabbed the deadalus hammer upgrade that gives you a really strong charge attack if you time it, that was the core of it, if you want to try it
If there is one lesson that this game teaches very well, it is this: When you're going through Hell, keep going.
It's so nice to see devs that know their game and apreciate the job that speedruner does
"If someone can go the distance..." I see you there, sneaking in Hercules references.
You can really hear that these two really loved working on this game.
I would love to see a reaction to Hollow Knight Low% (No Major Glitches), which is not excessively long yet deeply unreasonable in the restrictions the category imposes on the run, making things quite difficult and resulting in a very unusual route through the game (including having to platform through three rooms in complete darkness.)
(For those who have played Hollow Knight, here's Low% summarized by listing the items/abilities obtained and bosses/dreamers defeated in chronological order: fireball, walljump, tram pass, dream nail, Watcher Knights, Lurien, lantern, superdash, Uumuu, Monomon, Herrah, the Hollow Knight. Have fun connecting the dots to form a route ;-)
One of the only series I actually enjoy that ign is uploading! Great stuff
Now that someone beat the run thought impossible we need a reaction to it
Supergiant is such a treasure.
Can’t wait to start playing this masterpiece!! I just got a switch for Christmas & this was the first game I bought. Been eyeballing this game for a long time.. I’m so ready to start the journey!
I love these playthroughs and commentaries.
They didn't call the Hydra Lernie :(
that's one of the other hydras
@@chrisk3127 nah, Lernie is Lernie
It would be a spoiler. I mean, this whole thing is a spoiler sort of if you don't know you're going to fight dad. But still, it would spoil more than is necessary to spoil.
@@cobaltwerewolf Yeah the Lerner thing is like a post post post game “event”