What if Germany Had Been Split Differently After WWII?
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- Опубліковано 16 сер 2021
- There wasn't always a plan to divide Germany East and West. A decision that defined the 20th century and the Cold War. There was another plan. The Morgenthau Plan.
A plan that went beyond just the borders on a map.
Check out WhatifAltHist: • What if Germany was Di...
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Special Thanks to 'WhatifAltHist'. It's fun to do a similar topic with another alternate history channel. Check out his video here. ua-cam.com/video/vlUnO3jIP_g/v-deo.html
As well this video may be a Part 1 to a 2 part series. Let me know if you're interested in seeing this fleshed out more
*Soviet Prussia*
Please do a "What if the Japanese won the Battle of Okinawa and Kamikaze's succeeded?
Please do a re-make of your old "what if the Roman Empire never fell"
I would like to see another part, it would be cool for you to do.
Maybe Part 2 can be for Japan getting divided
Moral of the story: *Morgenthau was a freakin' maniac.*
Well if the EU takes the French approach then perhaps partial implementation would had been the way to go. But we were producing the food needed and if we came up short the South America was not having food industry production issues. So famine is not a given. As far as the factories though seizing ownership of them and the dissolution of the companies that supported the “rogue government” seems like a more financially beneficial approach as well as declaring the regions with the largest number of them free/international cities and that whole lot of nonsense they believed was feasible in those days. Sort of like regions that work like airport or port free trade zones. Add to that making some of those zones cash cows for the colonizers and they might had kept more of their colonies if that was their goal not to mention settle those regions with colonials or those fleeing the soviet block if the locals became too comie or something else.
That said this would had required the US to take the bulk of the financial and moral ills and the colonizers to reap the profit. Undoubtedly no EU and a UN even more useless than the one today. That said those large number of unemployed germans could had been used to settle in colonial land and serve as a people who would be avid supporters on the preservation of the colonial empires in the regions they settle. Settling a few hundred thousand of empire suppoters in the Dutch or English holdings would had evened this out better against independence movements.
Back in the good ole days... when we didn't allow such people to EVER get higher then "secretary of X" or whatever to begin with...
Instead of like now... where we idolize them like idiots an put them in key an important positions of power an importance.. an then just watch them an let them run things into the ground unchecked... future generations will think we're all idiots if we manage to endure as a species an societies long enough
Right up there with Stalin, Pol Pot, or jolly old Uncle Moustache!
Seems like he shared some traits with hitler
@@kenetickups6146
Yup.
"And just like with any puppet, once the hand is removed it goes limp."
*coughs in Republic of Afghanistan*
And Vietnam. And Iraq. And Syria.
Sad but subtle and true
*Seems like the US army was the only thing keeping it together*
@@accent1666 well they did need a training ground to learn how best fight a civilian population.
wait wait idk about Syria
It isn't really war that started because we are fighting against terrorism or overthrowing someone because they probably had WMDs
I'd say Syria is probably more like a proxy wars between Russia and US
@@guillermoelnino a civilian population in disguise (or hiding in the mountains)
But oh well, I guess US lost the battle to win everyone's hearts and minds
Nobody:
Morgenthau: *The Industrial revolution and Its consequences have been a disaster for the human race*
He is a Far leftist
@@williamhu2630 your going to bring politics in here, please don’t-
@@6000. no. He was a far leftist my dude.
Reject humanity, return to monke.
@@6000. No politics in my World War II video!
So basically, under the Morgenthau plan, Germany would be the 1940s equivalent of Afghanistan, or Vietnam depending on how the Soviets rebuilt their part of Germany.
A block above a block above it's probably a problem about a problem problem inch the nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nunchkin nut
@@jeangray2135 Uum.
“Every. Single. Time...” man that statement hit home, after watching Afghanistan collapse under itself in a week. Really shows the importance of a nation believing in itself to survive. Even with a functioning government and powerful military, the heart of the people is what truly matters in the end.
Yeah the parallels between the two are striking
Honestly the US has such a strong military the fact it can put a government on what is practically life support is astonishing
The US did a better job leaving the Philippines. The Republic of the Philippines is still standing today.
The way the situation is turning there now, appears pretty calm though, which in my eyes shows that this new Taliban leadership has a very good start. And think who will be the first to acknowledge them as the new legitimate govern power of Afghanistan: China - in the same way, the US took the chance with Western Germany. At least that's my prediction. (I guess Russia had enough "fun" with that region in the past...)
What do you think?
@@maxunger2309 I think China is welcome to occupy them now. When the Mongol Khan was Emperor of China during the Yuan Dynasty, Afghanistan was part of the Mongol Empire so China can assert a legitimate claim to the land if they so desire.
Churchill being portrayed as Sir Toppemhat is actually the most accurate one ever
WARNING I am the unprettiest human YTer worldwide. Take the hint, dear day
@@AxxLAfriku wut
God I fucking love Thomas the Train
Sir Topham Hatt
@@localminuteman he is a beggar, ignore him
*"Every. Single. Time."*
That had some spice behind it- I can taste that even if I weren't able to see it.
"Me and another channel, Whatifalthist"
Damn what a badly aged collab
Aged like milk lmao
Why
@@bear3616 whatifalthist lost his fucking mind and is just a fascist culture war channel now
@@bear3616 on top of that, he’s just an idiot when it comes to historical analysis…
@@bear3616 Whatifalthist doesn't do alternate history anymore.
And uhhh... he's gone in a direction politically that Althisthub probably doesn't agree with.
Ignoring how unlikely it was, de-industrializing the world's secondmost industrial power is such a ballsy move
It was essentially a fuck it, since y’all can’t behave I’m sending you back to Monke
Makes me glad that it was seen as the terrible idea that it was.
real chad energy
Not to mention that doing so would cripple the rest of central Europe's economy, as even back then most countries were reliant on German industry and imports.
Germany was 4th or 5th industrial power. The idea that everything German is just Ace is Nazi propaganda that continues to be in circulation to this day. Curiously related to the underlying topic of this video. Iraq was at the time the 5th largest military force in the world. It got gang banged by everyone, and they got bombed to per-industrial economy. People in Iraq hate the US and look back at Saddam with nostalgia, because alt leas he got the power running, food rations, and relative peace.
Doing something related to the Soviet plan to create a neutral unified Germany could be interesting as well
wouldn't it have just turned into a big Spy vs Spy battlefield for the West and Soviet intelligence agencies?
@@josetrujillo2394 Without a doubt. Stalin's united neutral Germany plan rested on the idea that such a Germany would continue to allow Soviet troops to be stationed in their territory, or at the very least could be influenced by the Soviets.
I was surprised that Cody said little about the USSR in this video. They probably would use this humanitarian disaster as an excuse for them to strengthen their position in the Cold War (and show that they aren't worse in moral terms than the West in this situation).
A large country in the center of Europe could never stayed neutral in the long term*. A neutral Germany would have quickly become a strategic nightmare, given that they wouldn't have been allowed a large military, nor would they have had the strategic depth to deal with any attack. Both NATO and Soviet military planning would have centered around taking Germany before the other side could. Probably with a constant battle of propaganda and political influence, to get Germany to grant concessions or deny them to the other side, to better prepare for a possible war.
*Yeah, Austria did, but A.) they're a small, mostly mountainous, country, not a major industrial and transport hub and B.) had the Cold War ever gone hot... does anyone really believe their neutrality would have protected them from the Soviets? No, and neither did Austria, since they didn't join NATO, but aligend themselves to it.
That might’ve actually resulted in the entirety of Germany being sympathetic to the capitalist cause, since unlike the Soviet Union, the U.S. and Britain would’ve actually been able to feed them, potentially winning them over.
It's a good thing we learned how important it is to help nations stand on their own so they don't instantly collapse when we leave right? We certainly didn't make that mistake again!
US should not be in the business of nation building anyway. Just smash the military and government, then extract concessions and peace out.
Morgenthau's own ethnic background probably had a lot to do with why his plan was so harsh on the Germans.
Finally, someone else who knew why just off the last name
@@hambubgr2 I've read about Morgenthau before so that's why I know some about his background.
Yup, after reading about who Morgenthau is, it makes total sense. Still, his personal beef against the Nazis doesn’t justify this incredibly harsh plan that punished Germans to oblivion.
@@Marngel It had nothing to do with the Nazis and everything to do with ethnic hatred towards Germans. You really think the Nazis convinced people to suddenly hate the Jews out of nowhere? That ethnic tension is centuries old.
12:00
I love the difference in tone between the videos. Whatifalthist’s “oh the power in europe would be divided between France and Britain” and AltHistHub’s “the allies have invented holocaust 2 and nazism still lives!”
WW3: Italy is tired of switching sides so decides to break itself up among the previous election results. One of these states is communist. One is fascist. They naturally fight each other and it eventually develops into a proxy war before becoming so bloody that both sides start ww3. As soon as this happens, italy switches sides and becomes unified again except everybody moves to Libya and the Libyans move to Italy. They then flip themselves to live in Algeria before making the final switch in sides to end up in spain. They then defeat france using spain and win ww3 by negotiating peace with ussr and usa as a neutral country.
@@thebiscuitguy646 ...What?
@@dranflame_1236 italy flips a lot. It's what they do.
@@thebiscuitguy646 oh okay
That's the difference between the Morgenthau plan and the Roosevelt plan. Morgenthau's plan would have been genocide, Roosevelt's just removed Germany's centralized power structure.
“Every. Single. Time.” Definitely the most impactful way to end the video 💯
Yes indeed. I shed a tear...
Hoi4 mod
The timing though
This video actually proves a point I've been saying for a long time now. The US needs to focus just as much on winning the peace as it does on winning the war. Beat the enemy, knock them down, yes, but then offer them a hand to get back up and aid to help them become better off than they were before. By doing this, we turned Germany from the free world's enemy to one of our greatest allies. We helped Japan become one of the world's biggest economies and Korea a shining beacon of democracy in Asia. We should have done these things in Afghanistan, but instead we occupied them and paid little more than lip service to the development necessary to sustain a viable democracy.
Well, Afghanistan's existence in itself is somewhat unnatural. The country is Extremely multi ethnic and too Geographically unviable that it's continued survival in any form is a miracle.
i believe the problem is america at the time was extremely angry and unfortunately didn’t focus on the peace and now we’re here
unfortunate
The difference in Afghanistan is Islam, it’s fundamental values were at odds with the West and Western values, unlike Germanic or Japanese culture.
Afghanistan doesn't want democracy or the west. They would rather have death than degeneracy. The Taliban was the heroes of the Afghan population and no amount of occupation could change that. The Muslims want empires. They don't want to be taken over by an empire.
@@AG-vb6vv I kinda don't buy that. Democracy seems to be functioning mostly normally in Indonesia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Albania, et al.
"And as with any puppet, once the hand is taken out, it goes limp"
Correct. Ask Afghanistan.
Sigh. Afghanistan was not a puppet government. The Afghan gov't did whatever the hell it wanted to do and it didn't need to check with Washington to find out if it was acceptable. Karzai's brother, a minister in that gov't ran an opium cartel as his side hustle. Ashraf Ghani fled the country with an entire planeload of cash. The US didn't run Afghanistan. They paid large sums to whichever warlord or tribal leader who happened to be in the neighborhood to keep things quiet and they didn't much care how the warlords went about doing that. Some of these warlords amused themselves running child sex slavery rings. At least $300 billion was dumped into an economy with a GDP of a mere $22 billion. The effect of all that American money caused serious inflation as the warlords and officials who got the money went on buying sprees. The wages of the "honest" officials couldn't keep up, so bribes became necessary on everything, including birth certificates and death certificates. To fund their lifestyles, military commanders claimed to have more soldiers on their payrolls to claim those wages, and the actual soldiers were unreliably paid. Afghanistan was not a puppet gov't, it was a mafia gov't. In the face of years of being subjected to a protection racket, even ideologues like the Taliban become appealing.
@@bobwinters5572 there’s just one thing. Afghanistan was held up by American troops, so no matter if it seems independent, it was still a puppet
Map alternate histories are the best alternate histories.
The floor here is made out of floor
I sense a slight bias here.
and this is a 100% unbiased fact
Hey there!
What am I supposed to do with an alternate history if I can't do a little mappainting?
“Institutions only have credibility if people have faith in them”
some wise words to keep in mind during these trying times.
Kinda like money I guess
"Power lies where men believe it lies. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall" - Game of Thrones
@@Bob-lr2xp "POWER IS POWER"
True
Especially for those who know the evil of institutions that need to be undone, need to be dismantled, hopefully in time their will be no nations.
God the idea of Nazism being martyred and proven 'right' by such a horrific act by the English and Americans is actually nauseating.
YT: "You can't use swastikas in your history videos"
AHH: "Ok, I'll just use your logo and achieve the same effect"
YT: "Alright thanks, it means a-lot to... wait, say what now?"
AHH: "You heard me"
Everyone else: *clapping ensues*
I love how the Swastika is replaced with the UA-cam logo.
@CP D2191 UA-cam is the New Order
The Final Cut
@@solrac2000 The internet needs a B.J. Blazkowicz to save us from UA-cam's oppression.
same thing, amiright?
@@skunksecond nope. Commies are worse
Imagine if it was returned to being the Holy Roman Empire division and you had like Saxony vs Wuttemburg at the World Cup and the G7 Summit became like the G62
Dear god
Bundesliga becomes HREliga, stonks?
A Germany that fragmented wouldn't be a large enough advanced democratic economy to be in the G7 (G6?). I imagine South Korea or Australia would be likely possible members in that scenario.
The football rivalries would be hilarious though.
German speaking states might never win any FIFA World Cups and European Nations Cups. At best, Bavaria end up somewhat resemble OTL Croatia.
absolute chaos.
"If the Morgenthau Plan had gone through Germany would've seen its first view at democracy."
The Weimar Republic: am I a joke to you?
The Morgenthau plan would further reinforce the failures of democracy to Germans.
"am I a joke to you?"
Eh, kind of... It's instability was what led to Nazis so...
@@Slippin_Jimmy1012 and then it’d probably either try to return to Nazism or gone back to monarchism and try to bring back the Kaisereich.
@@therealspeedwagon1451 I agree with Kaiserreich, or any Greater Germany for that matter tbh. Also agree with Austria-Hungary.
@@darthshaggy9697 why do you hate democracy and love authoritarian monarchy
Allied Leaders: “So what should we do with Germany?”
Treasury Secretary: “So you guys know the Industrial Revolution?”
Allied Leaders: “Yeah…”
Treasury Secretary: “Well what if they didn’t?”
The industrial revolution and its consequences...
@@Noctem_pasa we live in a SUSiety 😔
This Morgenthau guy sounds like he’d get on with Pol Pot with all his Year Zero ideas.
That's exactly what I was thinking lmao
@Disposable Email his idea also had plans for millions to die so idk man he doesn't seem like a good guy
@Disposable Email Except this is what he *wanted* to do. He wrote a book about it. It’s not like Cody’s just idly speculating on what his plan might have been- he literally wanted to return Germany to Year Zero like Pol Pot.
Just because a person isn’t able to do bad things irl doesn’t mean that they can’t want to, or that they don’t have a poor moral character. Also, it’s a bit of a stretch for you to say that just because he was a general he can’t possibly be a bad person… if anything the military is frequently an enabler of evil behaviour.
@Disposable Email and Pol pot was a military leader liberating Cambodia from a us backed military dictatorship.
See how things change when you use different wording?
@Disposable Email
The fuck are you talking about? Apart from this guy being wrong, he simply wasn't a general in WW2. He was a politician and administrator who never served, especially not as a general....
This timeline is deeply painful to imagine because it LEGITIMIZES the Nazis and vindicates them for their atrocities
And seeing it makes me wonder what the hell Morgenthau was thinking
I wonder how much he actually believed in it after they realised what kind of repercussions it could have.
He just liked the idea of dead germans
There's no other possibility, he just wanted to butcher millions and get away with it
It's the geopolitical flying car: it's cool to destroy industries of our enemies, without thinking through
Goebbels actually used the Morgenthau plan as part of his propaganda when trying to make the Germans think that that their was a global conspiracy by " certain people" against Germany
@@infinitehonkworks195 More like he just wanted Germany to be forever removed as a possible threat. He didn't care if Germans lived or died.
The Marshall plan was the greatest post war settlement in history, to turn a hateful resentful enemy into a friend was a brilliant stroke.
yeah the marshallplan was meh, germany got only 1.4 billion US Dollar in todays currency 155 billion Euros. There was a whole lot more to this. But the Marshallplan gave needed money a the right moment. I personally would say a huge impact made the ECSC and their ancestors the EU.
Yea one of the ideas mentioned was that letting the Morgenthau Plan go through would result in basically a Nazbol Germany allied with the Soviets.
The Berlin Moscow Axis.
@@prestonjones1653 If Strasser couldn't create it, then Morgenthau will unwittingly
@@Warsie Unlikely. The Soviets already de-industrialized East Germany and the East Germans did not defect. Why? Because they were brainwashed.
The Americans would have done the same. They would just be no better than the Soviets.
The Churchill plan is what peace treaty looks like in Hearts of Iron IV.
When the poland is allied, occitania becomes an independent soviet state, and the ussr somehow ends up with corsica
Hoi4 peace deals seem like the world leaders arguing and taking what they can just to encourage more war lol
tbh bavaria becoming a part of austria makes sense since they have the same culture
Close to a HOI4 peace deal, but Britain doesn't own random bits of the coastline and the USA and USSR haven't satellited every single formable nation possible
"I'll eat this, this, and this, and I'll puppet the rest.
Omg, why does the USSR have so much warscore!?"
That last quote was such a hard jab at Afghanistan and it's very right
not *just* Afghanistan
Yep.
That felt close and personal
@@ybokors8524 If your, right then you also mean every US and Chinese ally.
More a jab at America then Afghanistan tbh
The explanation of the genuine historical gravitas of this video at the end is spine-chilling, Cody. Thank you for putting such an emphasis on it.
Cody partnering with WhatIfAltHost means we do truly live in the darkest timeline
This was an older Collab, before WhatIfAltHist went off the deep end
Cody is a leftist, he legit follows vaush.
@@AlexandreSantos-yv2tjWhatifalthist has always been bad, just maybe not as explicitly deranged as he is now. His content is mediocre at its absolute best, and represents a concerningly biased worldview and flawed understanding of history on average.
8:26 You can hear Cody smiling as he realizes just how tragically comical the loss of life would be.
Smile is visual. U can hear sights? Cool
@@frenchempire9471 Um, yeah. Most people can hear a smile in someone’s voice. It’s pretty easy to tell lol
@@frenchempire9471
You can hear a smile.
Theres a change in the shape of the mouth and thus to the 'texture' or 'timbre' of the sound.
I can tell when my loved ones are upset over the phone, as well as when they're chipper.
He basically starts breaking into a laugh
bc hes know this is getting demonized
11:40
This sounds similar to what happened in Russia in the 90s, after USSR collapsed. Not on such horrific scale, of course, but still, Russians' introduction to democracy was shock therapy privatization, skyrocketing crime rates, massive increase in povery, and complete destruction of most social safety nets. This resulted in most of Russians becoming politically apathetic, and having generally doomerist attitude towards any attempt of political change. That's why people like Putin can stay in power unchallenged for more than 20 years.
Putin managing to yank the leash on oligarchs (And replace non russian ones with russians) gave him quite the boost.
Putin can stay in power also because he is one of the best political leaders of the world.
@@sergiowinter5383 He's still failed to pull Russia out of it's economic and demographic rut.
Damn shock therapy. Straight to free market without even barely a safety net or middle part between large state intervention
also the rampant corruption and his alliance with the russian oligarchy keep him in power.
The Morgenthau Plan would have basically become the new world edition of "The Treaty of Versailles." Basically, the same bad feelings that would have been planted after WWI, would have repeated themselves, and inevitably led to another "reich" springing up in the center of Europe, and ultimately another world war (yes, even with nukes still being a thing).
I'd say it was a smart move that the Allies decided not to move forward with this version of Germany's occupation, but that would be completely putting it mildly. The Allies would have been IDIOTS to go with any sort of occupation plan, other than the one they actually utilized. And yes, while that did lead to hardships for Europe, especially during the Cold War, that scourge ultimately ran its' course, and died away.
Europe today, and the world for that matter, are much better off that the Morgenthau Plan did not get utilized. It would have been disastrous! Tens, if not hundreds, of millions of more people would be dead today, as a result.
Good call, Allies. Good call!
Churchill’s “North to South” plan is my literal dreams and nightmares attempting to combine into one story.
Edit: Dang that “Every. Single. Time.” Really hit hard when you realize it’s true.
There's a US training video called "Your Job in Germany, 1945", available here on youtube too, that still retains some of this logic, presenting a cycle where Germany goes to war, is defeated, appears friendly, goes to war again, and instructs US oppucation soldiers not to have sympathy for Germans and always keep in mind they could rise up again.
That is a propaganda film though, has some correct points yes but many incorrect, and acts as if Germany was evil as Prussians for declaring war on France in 1870 (after suffering decades of oppression under Napoleon lol) and also acting as if Germany solely to blame for starting WW1 which is false
Also seems to act and ignore all the conquest and treatment of natives Americans did, acting morally superior when really they have their own guilt
But yes its very interesting Historic film
If you keep oppressing them, they'll keep rising up. No surprise there. And yes, Germany was oppressed before WWI. It was a new and powerful nation, with superior culture, science, technology and industry. But they were denied access to oil (using Serbia), which was quickly becoming the most important resource. The English were losing their cultural and technological lead to Germany, and of course they weren't planning to give it up without a fight. That's how WWI started. And of course WWII was just continuation of the same conflict. After WWII alliances shifted and that gave Germany what it needed. With the US And the USSR becoming superpowers, much bigger than Germany could ever hope to be, suppressing them became pointless. On the other hand they became important ideological battleground in the Cold War, so they got the full support of both sides. And not surprisingly, they didn't make any trouble since then, in fact they became the glue that holds Europe together. Ironically, Germany is now kind of rules Europe.
Prussia didn't declare war on France in 1870. They got France to declare war on them. That was the entire point of the war: activating the alliance of german states with a war that was (theoretically) defensive.
People call Germany a sore loser, but let's not forget who was so pissed about no longer being the top dog in continental Europe that they wanted to dismantle the country that dethroned them. Because only France is allowed to conquer most of Europe. /s
@@armedwombat6816 French ideology in a nutshell lol
The VO in that film is provided by Dr. Suess.
The morgantheau plan is honestly very unlikely considering the geopolitics of the time
Obviously. That's why we got the Marshall Plan.
More likely than you might think. For about a year after the war the Morgenthau-plan was in fact formal US policy in its occupation zone. And some factories were already being dismantled as a result.
Only when the commander of the American occupation forces protested because of the many problems that were being caused by this was the policy changed to rebuilding the German economy by any means possible.
“Considering the geopolitics of the time”
More like considering the geopolitics of any time period after the industrial revolution.
@@userofthetube2701 Plus the fact that US intelligence feared that the policy could lead Germans to look towards Communism and that’s a nono
@@userofthetube2701 if they would have continued with the deindustrialization even with the whole of west germany it might stil have falen to the east as east germany actually had a realy strong prussian style army and upcomming economy.
without the marshal plan east germanny would have been a better place to live in the end.
pepole would be gowing east.
can u believe that idea?
Thank you, Cody, for that last image. Very important point to be made here and I'm glad you made it.
6:10 my grandma once told me that her parents (Saarland ,not germany but same situation) were moved to an appartement because their original home was destroyed ,the problem was there was already a woman living there ,that didnt knew there were new 'occupants' .So when she came home with her shopping and opened the door ,she screamed and dropped everything she held and fled.
Without that food my great grandparents may have starved...
I feel like he’s saying something about Afghanistan here.
He is. Those poor Afghan women and children!
@@BasileusHorus I have conflicting ideas about it.
On the one hand, self determination for a nation and its people is a fundamental right. But… at the same time, the Taliban is so incredibly violent and oppressive. But I guess the truth is you can’t control other countries, just like you can’t control other people. You sort of just have to let them death spiral and maybe give some basic help if they ask for it. But you can’t force them to change.
yes, that last photo is of afghanistan.
@Peter Kurten I think the goal was to win… it was just went about in the wrong way. Winning had nothing to do with Afghanistan. It only had to do with the Taliban. The US wanted to destroy them, that is what winning was. What the US realized much too late is that the Taliban wasn’t a group, it was an idea. Only through killing the idea of the Taliban could they win. The only way to do that is for the people to prosper and be happy and safe without the Taliban. To not fear or hate the US. To have that which they need so that they don’t become desperate. Only then would the Taliban be destroyed because no one would want to join. But, by creating chaos and effectively invading, the US caused the Taliban numbers to swell.
The war never was profitable. At least, not to the government. Companies contracted by the govt did profit, but that never changed. It just became apparent that the US was just helping the Taliban by trying to fight it, and there was no real way to reverse the anger held towards the US. So, it was pointless. The reservation, I believe, was that by pulling out completely, the Taliban would cause untold amounts of suffering. But it had to be done eventually.
Did you not notice the last picture of the American Chinook over the US Embassy in Kabul. Taken only five days ago.
Morgenthau is the equivalent of the saying of “you don’t respond to war crimes by committing war crimes.”
"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind."
A north/south division of Germany actually makes much more sense than an east/west division (not talking about Marshall's vs. Morgenthau's other plans for postwar Germany though; I'm glad we went with Marshall's economic side of things).
Excellent job Cody! This has to be one of my favorite videos of yours, very profound words on the importance of peace time litigation and the nuances of ideology on history.
Cody, you really outdid yourself with this profound video, especially drawing the parallels in the end.
Agree
Churchill's map further proves the theory that the British just drew straight lines and curves to define international borders
But it would be interesting to see a country with the name Austria-Hungary-Bavaria-Baden-Württemberg.
@@Monsterstrike7 But the bavarians and Austrians would oppress the rest
@@kieferkarpfen6897 bavaria would have their normal infighting with the Franconians and do their own thing, maybe start their own second communist revolution, so they would be out of the picture. Baden and Wuerttemberg would be too small, and Austria alone can't dominate Hungary.
And my prediction is just as realistic as Churchills Plans ;)
@@Monsterstrike7 Bavarians and Austrians would unite to oppress the hungaryans
As soon as you started talking about puppet states collapsing I thought “hmm sounds familiar, wonder if this video was made before or after” and then the montage started. Entertaining stuff as always
The Allies couldn't afford to turn Germany into an economic backwater when the Soviets are right there. It was to the Allies' self-interest to see a viable Germany, if at least as a buffer against a Soviet invasion. Probably the same kind of thinking to not turn Japan into an economic backwater, because communism.
Wait so, "Versailles Treaty 2: This Time its Serious"
This made laugh
Because the first one worked out so well.
worse actuallly
Electric Boogaloo
Ah yes, the "what if [insert country] was split" series continues
But in this case it's "split different"
I'm waiting for the what if Russia was split and Siberia becomes a country.
@@sergiowinter5383 Siberia would either be an HRE where its super decentralized but some peace exists or just another afghanistan scaled up to 10
Relating to this series: What if Yugoslavia never split up?
Answer: Comment war down below
what if banana split?
Just gotta say, I've been watching your channel since you made the Fall Out Lore video and haven't stopped. Love your content
Great video and I like the connection you made at the end. Couldn't agree more.
The ending was chilling man, I didn't expect that "starts clapping"
Same bro!
and this in spite of smug historians gatekeeping at alt-history
"Treaty of Versailles 2: We Need to Go Deeper"
"Treaty of Versailles 2: Electric Boogaloo"
2 Treaty 2 Versailles
The Revenge of the Treaty of Versailles (The Treaty of Versailles part 2)
It should have happened, Germany is still way too powerful they basically dominate the EU and boss everyone else around
@@AdamSmith-gs2dv Amazing, everything you just said is wrong
In all honesty, Morganthau's plan is arguably more barbaric if not, just as bad, as fascism is. It is a reminder to never stoop to the level of your enemies.
>Morgenthau
>Early Life
That's all you need to know
fr
As soon as I heard the name and what the plan would do I knew I had to check early life. It really is every single time.
@@Chr0n0s38 same
Makes sense, he was rightfully pissed off at the Germans for attempting to wipe out the Jews and starting 2 world wars at this point. Don’t know who wouldn’t want revenge or to stop them from being able to fight again
"Reject society,return to monke"
~Henry Morgenthau Jr, about Germany.
I kept on thinking of Karli Morgenthau whenever Cody said Cosy Morgenthau, yeah don't ask me why.
@@ahopefor OH NOW I GET! Karli Morgenthau’s plan from Falcon and The Winter Soldier served as an allegory to Henry Morgenthau’s plan for Germany at the end of WWII.
Morgenthau: Deindustrialise Germany to agrarianism, bringing about the potential death of a quarter of the population
Pol Pot: Mind if I copy your homework?
More like
"Return to money I'm not asking!"
-pulls out Desert Eagle-
@@Slippin_Jimmy1012 lol
“If a government is only held up by foreign force, then its simply a puppet and it will collapse easily once the occupational force leaves. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
And to drive this point home, shows the Fall of Kabul to the Taliban. We could have failed in Germany, but we definitely failed in Vietnam and now Afghanistan.
then can the ccp withdraw from our country so we can let it collapse already?
We were never going to win in Afghanistan. You can’t draw arbitrary borders on a tribal nation, splitting families and forcing enemies to work together. Especially when it’s been a tribal nation for thousands of years. You also can’t use force and strong arm a nation to follow the basic democratic blueprint when they have no interest in that. Let the minority who want to leave , leave. Otherwise leave us be, you will be left be.
@@guillermoelnino what country are you talking about?
@@childeryeeter4202 Probably Cuba
@@childeryeeter4202 CCP = China Communist Party. I believe.
Such a great video. Thank you so much!
Describing WW2 as a good vs evil war has to be some kind of sick joke
i mean it might be the closest we get to a good vs evil war.
@@cg123ize Definetely not, no. If you believe that you could be told literally anything
@@BigMek456 I mean...look its true that both sides have a lot of blood on their hands and I won't argue that but one of those sides were nazis
@@cg123ize And the other side were stalinists. Jim Crow law advocates. People who locked up entire groups of people up because they were Japanese. Imperialists. If you think any of these groups are remotely "good" in any way your morals are fucked up. Two wrongs dont make a right.
@@BigMek456 yes they did all that but, which world would you rather live in? A world where the allies win or a world the axis powers win is what I'm getting at
Germany 1939: we will rule the earth and make it a pure German society for us all!!!
Germany late April 1945: 0:04
Another one. 🤦🏻♂️
I don't see the shame, it took two whole globalist ideological superpowers to put down the axis forces.
@@scutumfidelis1436
More like the Axis powers where stupid enough too fight two global super-powers at once and just continuously dug their own grave.
@@marakrofitcac3425 That's probably because you see yourself as a child of the aforementioned two.
@@scutumfidelis1436
No. because that's how it went down in reality. Let's not glorfy the defeat of 3 incredibly bloody and horrific reigns please and thank you.
"First taste of democracy, negative" wow reminds me of post-Soviet Russia a bit
he seems to have forgotten about Weimar
@@jensboettiger5286 And the revolution of 1848.
@@MyRegardsToTheDodo the 1848 revolution was in favor of constitutional monarchy. The Weimar period was, in retrospect, seven mediocre years followed by seven bad ones. And only half the population was in favor of that democracy, the entire time, most wanted to establish a monarchy, a dictatorship or communism.
So yeah, first taste of democracy, negative. Morgenthau would have reinforced that with a vengeance.
@@MyRegardsToTheDodo there wasn't even time to get a taste
The exact same thing you were talking about happened to my grandparents, they stayed and lived in the eastern part of germany that was held by the soviets and later named poland
Love your videos Cody!
Have been watching your Afghanistan videos recently, no doubt relevant right now. Thanks for the great content!
That last sentence feels like it was perfectly crafted for the Afghanistan situation
That was the intention given it literally showed American choppers evacuating civilians from the Kabul embassy.
It was she continued very stupid sucks sir today's skim kill kilgotz It did you have put the heads up a hole and get a feeling
Hands down Cody, my favorite video by you. Lemme hit that patreon
Excellent video, as always!
The morgenthaue plan seems as though it'd have been even worse than the treaty of Versailles almost like they didn't realize what the first ww resolution spawned
But below to a note Bixby you're the only one that learned in New York on the phone from Siri is mosquitoes the 23rd of June 20th the 23rd of June fourwhat is the most popular UA-cam video game in the world customer service for a circumference to me I'm a human being that's all my favorite favorite Saint no no no no the wrong show you can download for bricks and incarcerated and the bowl track scandal will often be using the call log in to the horn exist on the fire under water and ran all the way but I'm bored and I'm bored and I'm into death all around show and the world won't breathe I'm sure kind of a whole whole bricks aren't you and I'm leaning them into that too But below the North Atlantic on the bottom of the sea for a second time in the darkest hour the cricket marine returns the wolves factor for a second time condemn don't make the convoy face it's fate basically no no no no the wrong track can the wolfbank Briggs anything can bleed in the beauty West
A united Germany should have never been a thing
Yes, because the treaty of Versailles wasn't harsh enough. It allowed Germany to further exist and build a military again, the Morgenthau plan would have prevented that
@@albusnightspring8057 ok chauvinist
@@albusnightspring8057 A united Germany was an enviable
I'll never get tired of that youtube logo replacing the swastika still having the same meaning
it's cause the swastika is so offensive, and these videos are, nominally, entertainment and not teaching.
In Germany and several other European states, YT would have to actually block the channel to comply with laws. I appreciate replacing the logo for other readons, too. ;)
@@Enyavar1 actually that's a common misconception. You can have swastikas when talking about Nazis, it's kinda like fair use. It's also why the Indiana Jones movies got away with it. You just can't use them in a way that could be construed to support Nazi ideology. E.g. you can't glamorize Nazis or have a cool and likeable new or fictional political movement use a swastika.
Wolfenstein would probably get away with using swastikas if they ever bothered just doing it and appealing in court. The reason Wolfenstein 3D was initially banned is that games weren't an established art form so it was seen as normalizing Nazi symbology in a toy for kids, which out of context really sounds pretty bad.
Since games are now understand to be a narrative medium just like movies, there's nothing inherently illegal about having Nazis in games as long as they're the bad guys. Publishers just don't want to have to establish legal precedent because it's cheaper to just change things up for the German dub. And given how naive UA-cam's algorithms are they're probably erring on the side of caution and punishing any suspicious content as well. But this is all on the companies, not the law.
@@lnplum Wrong, sorry: The german law is pretty precise that the swastika symbol may only be used in educational context, and most of UA-cam is entertainment, including this channel. AHH has posted videos before where nazi victory was discussed, and YT as a platform itself is under scrutiny not to allow any propaganda videos. And then YT uses bots to enforce legal requirements, and being flagged automatically whenever you upload a video is kinda bad. In this jungle it is certainly safest and best to err on the side of caution, that is not a misconception.
Or are you so familiar with Cody that you _know_ that his reasoning has nothing to do with avoiding his videos getting blocked?
@@lnplum Huh, you already knew what I just responded... so your first comment was kinda contradictory to your 2nd. :-P
you are are on a roll with great content. First the videos and then the book and now you're at 2 mil subs. You've come a long way man.
(PS love your book :) )
It's also worth mentioning that Morgenthau was Jewish, so not only would it have proven the theories about the evil Allies wanting to destroy Germany, but also the ones about Jews being behind it all as well
It still proved it
That is true, it would've worked in favour of the propaganda that had been at this point widespread against them. Reversing any important grounds made in displaying that they are just normal people aswell.
That time the Allies were planning to go full on Pol Pot on Germany.
The timing of this episode is perfect given the situation in Afghanistan
Your videos are absolutely incredible.
I love your channel keep up the great stuff
Lol literally everyone from Twitter was expecting an Afghanistan related video!
well in a subtextual sense it could be considered that
Oh, but this _is_ an Afghanistan video
Oops I just read the title and commented as I was really waiting for an Afghanistan video. Cody brought the video in a very different and innovative way. Hats off!
there's really not much else he can talk about regarding Afghanistan. he did two videos already explaining the roots of that conflict. and two videos explaining the roots of why the Middle East itself is so unstable
@The Dude you know what i mean
“What if we lived in the Harrison Bergeron dystopia”
turn on the news to find out ;)
That's just today.
We live in the covid dystopia
@@sergiowinter5383 this is what utopia looks like to the elites.
@@guillermoelnino Every dystopia is an utopia to somebody. Unless if it is the literal apocalypse.
Damnnn @AlternateHistoryHub with the “Every single time” and then the Kabul pic gave me goosebumps
I glad to see working with another althist channel I like to watch, cool to see.
I feel like a stalker being this fast
I was thinking the same😂😂
Imagine what a militaristic dystopia the "Prussian Soviet Republic" might be
It would be a society of Gamers
I'm surprised to hear these two work together as little as a year ago
To be honest I'm not very fluent in what the community is like but apart from the enormous difference in size between the two channels I've seen a lot less people go against this channel compared to whatifalthist & tbh this channel is much more respectable than whatifalthist in most ways that matter in my opinion
Amazing video, and bone chilling scenario.
Me as German:
*OH NEIN, BITTE NICHT*
I am still surprised they didn't do that after two world war in so you are pretty lucky to just lose prussia
@@stadtrepublikmulhausen4121 pretty lucky? Such a Splitting of Germany would have never worked. In the end you would have the same situation as in afghanistan but with Nazis.
@@stadtrepublikmulhausen4121 Well we still control Western Prussian lands so it isnt gone only East to Poland, but if you mean the state itself then yea
@@FriedrichBarb it got splitt up into its many different Regions. You could technically count Brandenburg aus Prussia. I mean having one State far bigger than others would just create a one-sided power dynamic. Then Modern Germany would be an Empire in everything but its name just like the Weimar republic. And there was really no reason for the Bonn republic (West Germany) to recreate Prussia in any meaningful way.
@@stadtrepublikmulhausen4121 indeed they are pretty lucky that europe didnt just had enough of germany and dissolved it forever. I bet that if a ww3 happens and germany is in the losing side then they will still let germany exist.
One thing you didn’t notice about this scenario is that the soviets had a different attitude towards containing Germany than the west.
The west mostly wanted to make sure that the Germans couldn’t get as powerful as they used to be, while the soviets were mostly focused on removing the Nazi influence from german society.
Because of this I believe that the soviets wouldn’t follow the morganthau plan, leading to whatever Soviet puppet state that results from the war being way more economically and socially stable than the capitalist puppet states to the west.
This would probably result in two outcomes:
1. The Soviet puppet state will surpass the states of the west and the populace of the western countries would see the soviets and and communism more preferable than their current situation. Mabye they even try fleeing the west forcing the western puppets to make a huge iron curtain like the soviets did in our timeline.
2. This causes the west to unite the western puppet states in our timeline and try and develop the new German puppet state in a desperate attempt to make the west look good.
These were some good points. If these outcomes would've come to pass, we would be seeing alot more Soviet states and communist ideals. (I don't mind communism on paper.)
That would be scary, seeing the roles switch (kind of)
@@saiyurikanda17 seems difficult to implement those good ideals doesn't it?
You've got it back to front. The west was focused on removing Nazi influence from Germany, and then rebuilding the country as a strong buffer state against the Russians. They invested significantly in the German economy to help it recover, such as with Marshall Aid from America, and British food exports (Britain actually had to increase rationing to pull this off. Because of this rations didn't end in Britain until 1954)
The Russians on the other hand viewed Germany as a permanent threat to Russian independence. This was the second time in 30 years that the Germans had conquered large swaths of Russian land and killed millions of Russian people. Their primary concern was preventing Germany from ever posing a threat to them again, which is why they strongly opposed the British, Americans, and French merging their occupation zones to form West Germany. This was actually what caused the Russians to blockade West Berlin in 1948. Instead of investing in East Germany after the war, the Russians spent the first few years basically looting the country by claiming large portions of its industry as reparations (a little bit like the Morgenthau plan but nowhere near as bad)
@@orangebanana845 exactly. I could not have said it better.
Using the UA-cam symbol in place of the WWII German symbol… earned a thumbs up and a literal lol. Very well played sir. You are a role model for us all to aspire to. May your channel live monetized forever!
This is imho opinion your best video yet. Too bad we had to be reminded of this lesson so very recently.
Was thinking this was pretty relevant before I even saw the ending with Afghanistan. Really powerful video mate!
What if Argentina had won the Falklands war, that would be a interesting video.
Than they would have the falklands. Tf are you expecting? Argentinan world domination?
Argentina would have the falklands video over
It would certainty have huge political ramifications in Britain. Thatcher would be viewed as an incompetent warmonger on top of breaking up unions and nationalized companies. She would definitely be voted out of office if not permanently stain the Tories' reputation as an elitist party that is incompetent at defending Britain's territory and created a British Vietnam type of mentality, and also project an image of weakness internationally. It could even embolden the PIRA to carry out bolder strikes in North Ireland.
There's a bunch of possibly interesting alternate history scenarios as far as Argentina goes, but imo this one is certainly not one of them... I know Cody's made a few that were really outlandish, but there's simply NO WAY Argentina could have won that. The UK wouldn't have let it go, they had better trained troops and more allies, and Argentina didn't even really have it's own neighboring countries fully on it's side
@@adelkheir yeah hm i guess you're right
Cody, would you make an alternate history video about:
- What if the Ottomans still existed?
- What if the British colonization of Afghanistan was successful?
- What if the Dutch missionaries successfully Christianized the majority of the population of Indonesia?
- What if the Ottomans successfully conquered Vienna?
That got powerful at the end. This is a damn good video
This is so cool. My two favorite alternate historians working together; it's the collab I've been waiting for
"The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open"
- Günter Grass
"war is cool yo!"
-Ernst jünger
The job of a citizen is to serve the nation and if he doesnt he should keep his mouth shut, the citizen can open his mouth only when the nation is in danger.
@@Silver_Prussian This sounds like the trolls of my country’s China Pandering president. “Don’t complain, just help”. True, but I pay taxes to the government and I expect it to be used properly, not just enrich cronies.
@@shaider1982 i am talking about those citizen that whine all the time about something without ever helping their country
You know ya gonna catch flies that way!
3:24 "Let's imagine these considerations, are just not thought about."
Rep. Barbara Lee: I don't need to.
Someone needs to make a Hoi4 mod of this
Churchill's plan was obviously the best way to split Germany smh
Pretty much it would have resurrected the Holy Roman Empire, sans monarchies, with the German nations be a sort-of confederation. And there are still secession movements to this day in Bavaria, with some (West) Germans wanting to see eastern Germany (being Brandenburg) being split off as its own independent state (given that the Soviet-controlled East German economy was in shambles at reunification).
Based Churchill
@@rwboa22 if Brandenburg split off, would they rename themselves Prussia?
Creating a bunch of smaller weaker states might have lead to the Balkanization of Central Europe. Another not-so-good outcome.
I've wanted this for years. Beautiful.
United States of Bavaria let's go.
I got another one "What if the Zulu's defeated the British by stealing their gunpowder?"
@@ernestov1777 Then the Zulus would've had to deal with the Boers, because if the Zulus were able to defeat the British, they would've most probably crippled the British Empire's ability to wage war in South Africa, and then, the war against the 2 Boer Republics would've ended in a resounding defeat for the British (Which the British only barely won in our timeline by using concentration camps and other tactics now associated with the Nazis), meaning, Option 1- South Africa would've stayed fractured, meaning Apartheid and the wars the Apartheid government fought to prevent communism from taking root in Africa wouldn't have happened, which means the Balance of power in the Cold War would have shifted quite a bit, and modern day South Africa would not exist, meaning democracy, industry, and economy in Africa would be much more agrarian and much less developed, or, Option 2 - The Boers would have joined the Germans in WW1 and conquered most if not all of the British Empire's Southern African holdings as high as the Zambezi river, forming one massive "Greater Republic of South Africa", engulfing all of modern day South Africa, Botswana and Zimbabwe, and meaning that it would solidify itself as a great power on the World stage, and Germany might have actually won the 1st World war
@@thenomad47 Or instead of ending up stuck in the same country the Boer and Zulu end up as neighboring powers united by telling tales of "That time we killed a bunch of brits"
@@DIEGhostfish it's a possibility, but considering the previous conflicts and grudges they had against each other, and Afrikaner and Zulu nationalism at the time, the chances of them being at each other's throats until one is completely conquered is much more likely
@@DIEGhostfish I mean considering how deeply racist the Boers were that seems very unlikely to occur.
It's a Christmas miracle that this video has been up for 3 days and not taken down.