I honestly wouldn’t call it superhero fatigue but would call it BAD superhero fatigue. If superhero fatigue existed, I doubt DP&W would make $1B and become the highest grossing R Rated movie
@@nalday2534The Suicide Squad was caught in the middle of a terrible COVID variant running rampant and had a same day home release on HBO Max. Plenty of people watched it, just not in theaters
@@henriquesilva966 don't give me that bs. No way home made almost 2 billions during pandemic. Both Shang chi and venom are getting sequels. General audience rejected the suicide squad despite great reception. Good movies is not what they care about
I think there's two important things, audience expectations and not fully committing to its influences. It's a sequel that wants to distance itself from the first, doesn't want to be a musical, doesn't want to be a comic book movie, and only kind of wants to be a court room drama, instead poorly doing each of them, alienating everyone in the process, from the vocal fans of the first to its now vindicated sceptics, faltering with the fantastic grandeur of a musical and the grim character study it wants to be. And while on their own each is not necessarily a major issue, as a sum of its parts it collapses under its own weight.
I think the director weirdly experienced a similar thing that the games of thrones writers did during season 8. Without the source material of taxi driver and king of comedy, they had to make up stuff after that which ruined it.
They should’ve gone “cape fear” with it. After being released from Arkham on a technicality, Arthur goes all cape fear on young Bruce and Alfred, jealous of the upbringing he was robbed of.
Honestly, what I'm still surprised of today is that people think it's just the sequel that's bad. I'm surprised that a HACK director, that up until then only made a name for himself with gross-out comedies, tried to rip-off Scorsese and make a deep psychological thriller in the same vein, and the resulting mess was considered by a fair amount of people to actually be...a good movie.
And didn't even do anything interesting with them. It's just weird to juxtapose these two vastly different films in any event. Maybe it could work somehow, but I doubt it.
@@nalday2534 The Marvel movies don't have the pretense or intention of being deeper than silly, popcorn action-comedies. Joker does...and that makes it sooo much more egreageous to me. It's an insult to the movies it's ripping off.
Todd Phillips is brilliant in the way he has me regretting ever suggesting that Joker was a king of comedy rip off. I wish the internet had collectively dunked on him a little less, so that he'd have felt confident ripping off One flew over the cuckoo's nest for joker 2 instead of whatever the fuck this is
If you want One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Phillips would have only ripped off Cuckoo's Nest like he did Taxi Driver and King of Comedy for the first one.
Stop it with the "superhero fatigue" already. The only thing changed is that people will no longer eat up anything and are selective with their money. Well-made movies that cater to the needs of their audience are still highly successful.
Deadpool and wolverine wasn't a well made movie. Furiosa was. Stop acting like general audience cares about the craft of filmmaking or even great storytelling.
Seriously. It’s so lazy. The superhero craze was indeed crazy. Lots of bad or mediocre movies made a ton of money. But people will still see good superhero movies. No one is passing up a great movie because it’s a superhero movie.
@@endrendstudios7665 cool go have at it. No problem, we know yall have garbage taste but why can't yall admit it? Why yall keep making excuses that oh well acktually it's not superhero fatigue it's BAD superhero fatigue as if yall care about quality and good storytelling. Just admit that yall are content consumers who are incapable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes and able to empathize with someone else's experience. Just admit that all you really care about is you (despite the fact that you have to rely on others' art to do that but I digress)
It makes me sad that FullFat doesn't get the views he used to get. This channel is great and he kills it with his videos every time. Not sure what happened.
It’s defo past the glory days of 2018 / 2019, but it’s still decent enough revenue for the time I put in! But yeah I think tbh it’s just an oversaturated market, UA-cam never pushes my videos and the marvel Star Wars boom is long over
@@FullFatVideosI don't really remember your past videos, but I do associate this channel with quality, so that's a good thing, right? Been looking for Joker 2 videos out of curiosity, and plenty of ragebaiter videos out there, but seeing this channel, I knew I would get thoughtful analysis.
Calling Arthur an incel is just plain wrong. The guy had nothing against women, he wished to be loved and cared for but he never targeted only women or hated the world cause of women. That term is just soooo overused for loners these day.
EVERYTHING went wrong. The story, the direction, the theming, making it a fucking musical, this film feels like it was made to try and spite people who liked the first.
No one wanted a Joker movie where he's beaten, humiliated, gang graped and killed while Lady Gaga sings and prances around. Though the first movie made a billion it apparently had the ''wrong audience''. This new movie seems to have course corrected to include all the demoralization propaganda we usually see in modern media.
As someone who’s watched both taxi driver and the king of comedy I find it very shallow and tired to bring up the obvious similarities as something to criticize about the first Joker movie. It’s enjoyable in its own right and with the inclusion of Robert deniro it’s obvious they’re not trying to hide their inspirations here. It feels like people forget there’s more to a film than its premise. Music, cinematography, dialogue, editing, costume and set design, all of this and more seems to not matter when you get the opportunity to pretentiously bash the movie for sharing a similar premise to an older classic. Also, “joker iconography“? Besides the green hair and the joker name there’s nothing to latch onto in terms of familiarity, as far as the IP goes the movie was uncharted territory. Joker 2 sucked though.
I mean... Do you find the obvious similarities between The Force Awakens and A New Hope "shallow and tired" to bring up as criticisms? I'm glad people liked TFA but it's the same plot of the first movie, right down to the droid macguffin. A cameo doesn't sugar coat things. No it's not plagiarism or cheating or whatever but as film goers we don't wanna watch the same story all the time.
@@dante6985 thats within its own franchise, key difference there, the joker movie was giving comic book fans a fresh take on that character and story. So no, I don’t think my argument applies to the force awakens, sorry I don’t think that was the gotcha you thought it’d be. Also I’m a massive hater of the Star Wars sequels, but tfa ultimately delivered on being a pretty fun action adventure movie, with an incredible score, good performances, wonderful practical and cgi, beautiful cinematography, engaging action sequences, and even a cool new villain. Of course the second and third entries in that trilogy are actual abominations and I still scratch my head wondering how they fail so horrendously at everything they set out to accomplish. But credit where it’s due, TFA is a decent action movie on its own. It at the very least blows the prequels out the water. Ooh hot take for the nostalgia junkies. (Original trilogy is the only good Star Wars trilogy)
@@izzyandthesubterraneans370 So your response is "I'm giving The Force Awakens a pass because it's Star Wars too. It's cool if Phillips rehashes a plot because it's not in the Taxi Driver Universe". 🙄 Yeah.. maybe one day you'll drop this silliness. I personally don't want to watch the same story over and over. Most movie critics operate on that wavelength.
Todd Phillips also said that Arthur getting killed by the guy who eventually becomes the actual Joker was originally supposed to be the ending of the first movie. But once Christopher Nolan heard of this plan, he vetoed it from happening. They then were then able to use that ending idea for the sequel because, by that point, Christopher Nolan had parted ways with Warner Bros. I don’t buy that story one bit
7:35 the point of The Batman was to have Bruce learn that the world doesnt work in black and white. As Selina says earlier in the movie "you see the worst in people". Alfreds response was supposed to force Bruce that prople are complicated and things dont work in binary. Understanding nuance is a fundamental part of his arc throughout the narrative. I find that to be far more interesting than Jokers empty and shallow attempt at showing an evil billionaire(which I still realise is a relatively bold choice for this medium).
Yeah but I think true nuance would have been for him to do something truly bad whilst being the good father to Bruce that he remembered. In the end he is literally referred to as a good man and it’s like the movie just couldn’t go through with it
King of Comedy is 100 % my Mandela Effect. I've never heard of or seen anything about it before Joker, but suddenly everyone else knows it and know that Joker's heavily influenced by it. It really feels to me like it sprung into retroactive existence a few years ago.
It bombed at the time and it’s often overlooked but it has always been critically acclaimed. I saw it in 2017 during a Scorsese season at the picture house and then when Joker came out it immediately rang true two years later
The film should’ve been a one off and I recommend yall watch The Wild Robot or Transformers One to help it make its money back and support good movies and cuz Animation is Cinema
You're speaking my language towards the musical aspect of the film. So many reviews are talking about how bad of an idea the musical was for this movie while I wholeheartedly disagree. If they actually made it a real musical with numbers and all it would have been awesome
One of the many fascinating things about the King of Comedy is that what you make of the entire point of the movie is entirely based upon how funny or unfunny you personally find Rupert Pupkin's stand up.
Yeah, I’ve seen people say he’s brilliant and others say the point is he’s not funny, some think the audience laughter is genuine others thing the studio piped it in because he bombed. It’s so much more interesting than having him be so obviously bad
I honestly can't believe that even as a guy who's seen well over a thousand horror films, one of the most subtly eerie, gently heartbreaking, and uniquely disturbing films I've ever seen is a film called The King of COMEDY!! 😂😂😂😂😂
Folié a Deux is just Todd Phillips homage to Martin Scorsese's 1977 musical film New York, New York. It also didn't make a lot of $ at the box office but costed a lot less
i loved the original movie so much so i’ll admit i did want a sequel but when it was announced that it was going to be a musical i already knew it wasn’t gonna match the first movie in any way.
this channel is one of the few that I follow that actually makes an effort on making an actual review. Most of the others "reviews" are plainly retelling the movie and the last minute or two is the actual review.
I always love your videos, but I think this might be one of your most insightful! You make your passion and your points clear and I agree with your stance on Joker, didn’t plan on and don’t plan on seeing the sequel, of course now that I know it’s publicly reviled it’s easy to say I knew it would be bad, but the idea of it being a musical stuck out to me as an obvious red flag from its very announcement. The joker was a movie ashamed of itself, like they didn’t want to make a dc movie and could only get funded if it was, so they did everything to make it “real” and yet here we go with a musical, I had suspicions that it would be too afraid of that genre shift as well
I have never seen a filmmaker more petulant to its own core fans since maybe Matrix 4. If you wanna do a sequel and be petty towards the studio. Fine. But do it and make it good, show them you can play ball and be engaging Joe Dante Gremlins 2. He was lured back and made a cult classic and embraced the zany nature and meta humor of the first and it's succes. Also this guy is poison to his own franchises. That rape scene was so out of sorta mean spirited if in the first movie you wanted to talk about mental health, this isn't the answer. That scene made me hate this movie.
Right, at the very least they should be mindful of their own future careers, you'd think...Who's gonna hire the creator of one of the biggest box office disappointments of the modern era?
False. Wachowskis didn't hate fans of Matrix. They hated rw chuds who took the films Legacy and turned it into something it wasn't to affirm their own toxic worldviews.
I found the film disjointed and confused about its direction. It could have told the same story and explored its themes a bit more artfully. However, and this is a significant aspect for me, I was pleased to see it subvert expectations and ridicule the trite expectations of fanatics of the first film. Of course, psychopathy can be in part influenced by trauma, and the causes of that trauma need to be addressed, both within the individual and their immediate relationships, and further into wider society. But that doesn't mean we need yet another film about a demented serial killer which tries to belabour the idea that 'but, they've got a point, eh?' No, they don't. They are not an anti-hero. They are not a messianic figure with a profound insight into modern society. They offer nothing whatsoever in terms of solutions. I'm not sure how old most viewers were, or whether it translates to US culture, but as a Briton of Gen X, the unmistakable sound of the first notes of a song performed by a notorious paedophile raised my hackles instantly. It was pathetic edginess without the empathy and insight which the fans of Joker desperately tried to ascribe to it. I'm glad to hear that, perhaps, that was the intent of the filmmaker all along, and that, in response to the distasteful enthusiasm for the character, he decided to throw a wrench into the entire endeavour.
Matrix 4 was clearly insulting the studio, not the fans, or the characters themselves...heck, the main reason the movie exists is because the direct lost her parents, and resurrecting Neo and Trinity was the only thing that made her feel better (only reason why Keanu got on board).
Speaking of the first movie...Fleck DID kill Beet's character, didn't he? I was a bit unclear on that, but that was the impression I got...(As to giving the Joker a rest, pretty sure he's the antagonist of the next Matt Reeves Batman movie, sooo...)
@@FullFatVideos I got that impression from after her last appearance, when he breaks down crying in his room while sirens are closing in...but then, this IS Gotham, so sirens could be for anything...But I'd guess the courtroom scene in the new one addresses this?
Happy to know I’m not alone in disliking the original in the first place. I definitely get why it has fans but to me it is absolutely why founding these projects on trying to be a “grown ups” superhero movie is a farce. So many choices in this sequel feel so empty & ironically immature in the very desperate bid to read as “elevated” or “mature” for a superhero film & chasing an R-rating for its own sake as some badge of prestige
gotta disagree with the idea that Arthur really was Thomas Wayne's natural son though. that completely ruins the parallel of Arthur imagining a relationship with his neighbor with his mother imagining a relationship with Thomas Wayne.
@@Bvggerffplswhats left of arthurs world crumbles when he realizes his mom was fucking insane and made everything up in her head. He shortly after that fully becomes the joker
I think Joker is a great film that feels refreshing, even if I had already seen Taxi Driver. It still felt like a breath of fresh air to take that Taxi Driver like story and wrap it in a Joker skin.
Kings of Comedy is a phenomenal watch. The themes and its message are clear and pack a punch even til this day. Looking forward to the disney doctor who review as well 👀🤣
I think it's funny how "superhero fatigue" comes up every time a string of bad movies come out and bomb because they're bad movies. A few mediocre movies made a lot of money despite being mediocre, Captain Marvel coasting off of the screen time in Infinity War for example, but I really don't see it as a sign of superhero fatigue when bad movies fail. It'll only be when a GOOD movie bombs that you can make a case for superhero fatigue. In that case, it means that despite it coming out, people just don't want to see superheroes anymore.
I see your point but there’s a marked difference in absolutely everything coming out and being a hit at the end of the 2010s to now. I don’t think Captain Marvel 1 would make a billion nor Aquaman now
Deadpool v wolverine worked because it was specifically created to make fans happy It's engineered for the masses But asides that Fatigue is real they all mediocre these days
They don't want a superhero theme. They also devalue existing superheroes in the eyes of the public. This is happening with the intervention of Wonder Bros. .In Joker's first movie, the public's support for Joker and the image of public support were evident. But this is a situation that Wonder bros finds dangerous. They intervened by trivializing it with the sequel. They tried to make a folk hero look like garbage in the sequel. If you have noticed, superheroes, including Superman, all end up devalued for the sake of death and worthless purposes. You can see this if you look from a wide perspective. Joker offered the public the feeling he wanted with a small budget. Then this was deemed dangerous, here is the result Thor was turned into a fat drunkard drinking character in one of his movies. Check out this and similar situations. It's not hard to see. Why is the budget in Joker: Folie À Deux so high? Do you think a company could allocate so much money and make such a mistake? Normally it shouldn't do that. But it is not difficult to understand that the goal is not to make money. the perception of a folk hero, the perception of justice. And they don't want a hero savior that people all love in common.
Didn't need a sequel -- the points J1 made were crystal clear. And it didn't need to be a musical, especially a jukebox one. The songs added nothing to the story. I'd respect J2 more if it at least had original music. And the performers keep doing that whispery-mumbly thing that drives me crazy. If you're going to sing, SING.
You were doing well until you said everythings been said about the Joker and nothing will top TDK 😬 This is exactly the issue right here, a 'realistic' Joker, a psychotic with facepaint. They need to go back to the comic book version, TDK is a perversion of the comic character only based on a hand full of comics in a character thats 80 years old. Nicholsons and Romero are far more accurate and the further you go from the source material, ledger, phoenix, Keoghen the worse it gets. See the trend here? Ledger worked in TDK, Phoenix worked in Joker. Anything out side of that it doesnt work. They need to get back to the 1940s comics, not the revisionist tripe thats bern spewed out since 2008!!
I had a feeling that this was going to be bad from the moment they cast Lady Gaga as Harley Quinn, however when I saw Steve Coogan (F***ing Alan Partridge) doing an American accent in the trailer I officially refused to watch it and upon seeing all the negative reviews for this movie I knew I made the correct choice. Also this is an insult to musical movies as a whole and this is coming from someone who is a massive fan of them (e.g. La La Land, The Greatest Showman, Rocketman, Bohemian Rhapsody, both Mama Mia movies, The Prince of Egypt and even A Star is Born - as you mentioned a far better movie featuring Lady Gaga).
i hate how much movie these days are such cowards about being a musical, it never really commits to it and when it does it's usually in a very out of touch way with the reality of movies nowadays. if you're not gonna embrace it being a musical then dont do it at all
I watched the movie yesterday when it came out on digital because people were talking so badly about it that I wanted to save the money on going to the theater. I don't know if I went with my expectations so low or what, but I swear I can't see the bad in this movie. I thought it was GENIUS. I don't want to be overbearing and say “oh, but you didn't understand” because I can perfectly understand those who didn't like the movie, but I understood the meaning and the layers throughout. Maybe it's me philosophizing beyond the film itself, trying to justify the scenes, but idk, I thought it was great. Almost all the songs had a reason and few sounded out of tune. Okay, sometimes they went on too long, but most of them made sense with the story they wanted to tell. And the movie takes a heavy turn after the scene with the guards when they rap... Arthur. It seems that the film breaks Arthur and shows everyone who projected themselves onto the Joker in the first film that he's just some guy projecting himself above what he was and in reality he's an extremely broken and traumatized guy. I thought the ending was valid, after all, if he didn't die, what would he be? He'd go to jail?! But I thought it was a bit random that the guy killed him. But I think it must be some kind of metaphor that I didn't catch. Edit: I saw some people saying that it could be heath's joker who killed Arthur and I went back to review the scene and I think it's a valid interpretation. I thought the ending was better now but I personally would make Arthur stay stuck in the miserable arkham like he was, that way we would see Arthur at the beginning of the movie stuck in a miserable state, being manipulated to rise as something he is not (joker) so that in the end he only ends up in the same state he started, stuck in a miserable state. Again, I don't want to be overbearing because I understand those who didn't like the movie, but I personally thought the criticism was so explicit that everyone would pick it up And just to conclude: that part of the trial where they say “you spent less than 2 hours with Arthur and you think you know him” he is an TERRIFIC meta commentary
The Joker revisionism is getting on my nerves. It was a good to great movie, a visual marvel. It wasn't just the plot it was the cinematography, the comicbook aspect, the world building, the music!
It's not revisionism. It was never a critical darling. On Metacritic it was in the mid-50s. Joaquin Phoenix deservedly won an Oscar but many people, myself included, said at the time "This is Taxi Driver with a clown.". It was solid! Not trying to knock it. But it wasn't received as a masterpiece in 2019.
@@dante6985 “Taxi driver with a clown” is just so reductive. De Niro was in the damn movie, it was a homage to those movies. While telling a comic book origin story, and it fit together perfectly, if you don’t think that’s cool then each their own I guess. Joker hate is trendy now so you’ll probably get a lot of support
@@sc4131 The entire plot of the movie is nearly identical to Taxi Driver. A cameo by De Niro doesn't sugarcoat that. (If you include an actor suddenly it's an "homage" not derivative? An homage is honoring the prior film. George Lucas put ET aliens in The Phantom Menace as an homage to Spielberg.)
@@dante6985 Taxi driver is very simple, a crazy guy snaps and kills some people. The Joker is a crazy guy who kills people, his origin story being like taxi driver is a given. You're not saying anything, the real homages was the Maury stuff to Kings of Comedy, and some hints to Taxi driver in the social commentary.
my final comment, I think the idea that there are many people as the joker is not just a theory it's part of the cannon their are at least 3 diffrent people under that name and they are all diffrent but all still joker.
I want to see Kathy Bates playing a Joker. Not sure who would direct it -- Mary Harron, maybe? -- but that would really break the mold in a lot of ways. Not to mention it might be good.
it’s bad but also it’s the kind of bad that seems like it’s on purpose. like they made every choice to spite the studio and audience. successful anti-blockbuster imo, 7/10 (needed more Gaga)
As a director and writer you have to be aware of how the viewers think and how they'll react. I hate this phrase but it's true " It says a lot" if most viewers felt it was spiteful"
I personally think it’s overhated but not good at all either It’s objectively better than Morbius and Madam Webb saying it isn’t is ridiculous 😂 But it’s bad, like ANNOYINGLY bad and I feel like that’s the point but that doesn’t make it better It’s time the “supervillain without their nemesis”genre DIES, like if it’s a spinoff that’s ok but when the hero doesn’t exist it’s useless Even the good stuff like Venom is limited HEAVILY since Spider Man isn’t there
I think what makes it worse than Madam Webb and Morbius is that it retroactively ruined a movie many people liked (Joker). Webb and Morbius may be awful but they don't really damage anything. They're inoffensive stupidity and don't seem to undermine any previous films or come across like an attack on fans of any previous films.
@@JurassicRod nah, Joker 2 while being bad, isn’t EMBARRASSINGLY stupid though, it’s clearly trying to do something but failing, it even has amazing actors and visuals When it comes to Madam Webb and Morbius, they didn’t even try, it’s not even “so bad it’s good”, it’s so confidently bad that it pisses me off! 😭🙏🏿 Like they genuinely thought they could put no effort and that we would like it because we like Spider-Man
@@RyomenAyeni225 I don't disagree with you and I certainly don't want to try and defend those awful films. But I can see why Joker 2 has the hateful backlash more than Web or Morb.
With the excepcion of Deadpool 3 (which was more of a "nostalgia event" like NWH than a cbm), every single cbm released this year has bombed spectacularly, just like last year...and we still have Venom 3 and Kraven left. Is not "super hero fatigue" at this point, is "super hero hate", general audiences are straight-up refusing to see these movies.
@@Jose-se9pu I mean... The only cbms that came out this year besides Joker 2 and DP & W are Madame Webb and The Crow. They were going to flop no matter what year it was.
@@dante6985Exactly. Madame Webb and The Crow sequel are dire films. Previous Crow films have failed financially/critically. Same for non-Venom Sony superhero films.
@@FullFatVideos if I remember correctly (because I really don't wanna look it up) he found some documents saying he was adopted and he was neither Wayne's or his mom's kid
There are some stories that don’t need sequels and are best ending on a high note or up to the viewers imagination. When you force out a sequel, you always risk running a beloved story into the ground for the sake of easy money.
Nah, bad movie fatigue, but not superhero fatigue, and even then, it's mostly normie exhaustion. Their minds aren't made to stay on a trend this long, so their brains are frying basically.
Ultimately, the joker not being "the joker" but a joker is the same bait and switch shit audiences have been hating forever because of being a terrible twist. Most of the twisting audience expectations has become a common bad trope in movies rather than a clever misunderstanding. Edit: Remember birds of prey where the big bad black mask is a weak insecure fraud? Instead of Harley beating a villain, they make them some weak manlet with no power in truth. That ruined the movie for me. No clever writing, just a skip this scene like captain marvel's commander. They skip all catharsis and meaning. Subversions are insincere. That's my problem.
@@FullFatVideos If your talking 5 years ago the closest example would be Glass. A movie that both fans and critics disliked for being a disappointing ending after a great first (and second) film. That made 40 million on it's opening weekend but that wasn't a musical nor did it have the leadup of bad press before release.
2:14 All right, see, this is why official subs should be on UA-cam videos. The auto-generated ones just heard Maron as "Moron", and flagged it as a swear on the same level as the F-word. UA-cam, you're a ridiculous, non-functioning mess!
I think Joker is masterpiece regardless of Taxi driver and King of Comedy and it doesn't need a sequel, that is why it says THE END at the end of it. So, I want watch J2 even for free or out of curiosity.
Nothing to do with superhero fatigue as this is nothing close to a superhero film. Every normie who was getting bored of marvel absolutely loved joker. The ‘superhero fatigue’ argument is also a take I only see midwits spout - people don’t get bored of good films, they get bored of bad films. If superhero films were still consistently good then no one would be talking about this - but unfortunately they’ve been making slop for a while so (obviously) people get fed up with slop. For example, 100% of the Disney plus marvel content is unnecessary slop and it has weakened the MCU, which until then, was putting out films which all felt like events contributing to a whole. But with endless tv slop, the MCU is diluted. By contrast, the penguin is a great show and the Batman was a great film. So if studios just put out great stuff with no slop, no midwits would be talking about superhero fatigue.
The powers that be think we liked the first one because he killed people.. WRONG!! WE LIKED THE FIRST ONE BECAUSE IT HAD A GREAT STORY LINE AND GREAT ACTORS. IT WAS JUST AN ALLL AROUND GREAT MOVIE. WITH SUSPENSE. WE DONT CONDONE WHAT THE CHARACTER ACTIONS WAS. WE JUST SPENT YEARS WISHING FOR A HEATH LEDGER FOLLOW UP AND THAT PERFORMANCE BY J PHOENIX DIDNT TOP HEATH LEDGER BUT IT SURE CAME CLOSE AND WE LOVED IT.
but…. This one also has the same great performances with the same actors, and there was social unrest in the USA after the first film as a result of the support that this movie made for ‘starting a movement’, it’s not a coincidence that people stormed the capitol soon after this film was released.
They can read your poker face😆They read it, crapped on it then called it “art” that you just wouldn’t understand. They say it’s deep but it’s actually a shallow mess partially meant to sell gaga’s new songs.
First off “Gotham” was not a CW show. It was a FOX show. Secondly Harvey Dent appeared in like two episodes in season 1 and made a cameo in season 2. He never even became Two-Face.
Joker 1 was far better than you state, and I've seen the Scorsese movies. I empathize with Arthur, but not so much with Travis Bickle because there's no real background to Travis' story, something we have with Arthur and something a lot of people felt identified with. What the studios and detractors of the first Joker found dangerous was that. If Taxi Driver was filmed today and the politician he attempted to unalive resembled bad-orange-man, the press would love it, but Joker was more class conscious, there's the danger they preceived, and that's why existed the necessity to make a sequel almost nobody wanted, to destroy that character. Also Philips forgets the power of martyrdom. Killing Arthur could have made him more powerful to the eyes of the common men who idolized him in the first movie, not the "crazy fans"' strawman the media built to justify Joker 2's existence.
Where did you get that shirt??
It was a birthday present! It’s sweet isn’t it 😅
@@FullFatVideos yes
@@FullFatVideos but where was it bought?
In a galaxy far, far away.
Joker: "You wanna know where he got that shirt?"
I honestly wouldn’t call it superhero fatigue but would call it BAD superhero fatigue. If superhero fatigue existed, I doubt DP&W would make $1B and become the highest grossing R Rated movie
This. Joker 2 is a bad film, word of mouth spread about it being bad, it’s that simple.
You're correct
If that was correct Blue Beetle wouldn't have flopped last year. The Suicide Squad wouldn't have flopped in 2021 either.
@@nalday2534The Suicide Squad was caught in the middle of a terrible COVID variant running rampant and had a same day home release on HBO Max. Plenty of people watched it, just not in theaters
@@henriquesilva966 don't give me that bs. No way home made almost 2 billions during pandemic. Both Shang chi and venom are getting sequels. General audience rejected the suicide squad despite great reception. Good movies is not what they care about
Even my dad thought this movie was bad, which is crazy because he likes Madame Web.
😮
Your dad is quite the specimen 😂
bruh
Madame Web is actually so bad it’s funny almost like a parody so I get kinda liking it lol
😂😂
It’s so frustrating, I wanted mad love and we got a bad romance
I think there's two important things, audience expectations and not fully committing to its influences. It's a sequel that wants to distance itself from the first, doesn't want to be a musical, doesn't want to be a comic book movie, and only kind of wants to be a court room drama, instead poorly doing each of them, alienating everyone in the process, from the vocal fans of the first to its now vindicated sceptics, faltering with the fantastic grandeur of a musical and the grim character study it wants to be. And while on their own each is not necessarily a major issue, as a sum of its parts it collapses under its own weight.
I think the director weirdly experienced a similar thing that the games of thrones writers did during season 8. Without the source material of taxi driver and king of comedy, they had to make up stuff after that which ruined it.
They should’ve gone “cape fear” with it. After being released from Arkham on a technicality, Arthur goes all cape fear on young Bruce and Alfred, jealous of the upbringing he was robbed of.
Haven't seen this but seeing the first one I wouldn't be surprised giving his character in the 1st one
I don't think Arthur/Joker would intentionally kill a child. If anything, he would've wanted to raise little Bruce into being his clone.
Should we be surprised that the guy who Directed the Hangover movies made yet another bad sequel?
Honestly, what I'm still surprised of today is that people think it's just the sequel that's bad. I'm surprised that a HACK director, that up until then only made a name for himself with gross-out comedies, tried to rip-off Scorsese and make a deep psychological thriller in the same vein, and the resulting mess was considered by a fair amount of people to actually be...a good movie.
I never thought I’d say I’d rather watch one of the bad Hangover sequels over Joker 2. But here we are.
He literally just copied king of comedy and taxi driver for his first movie, now that he had to come up with his own ideas it sucked
Hear, hear!
And didn't even do anything interesting with them. It's just weird to juxtapose these two vastly different films in any event. Maybe it could work somehow, but I doubt it.
I once saw a review of Joker that said “If you didn’t know the ocean exists, you’d think a swimming pool was deep” and…I agree
How does that reflect on Lucretia Martel’s Venice 2019 jury, then?
@@thesixfootsixexperience8781 don't you think marvel movies are deep
Accurate!
@@nalday2534 The Marvel movies don't have the pretense or intention of being deeper than silly, popcorn action-comedies. Joker does...and that makes it sooo much more egreageous to me. It's an insult to the movies it's ripping off.
Todd Phillips is brilliant in the way he has me regretting ever suggesting that Joker was a king of comedy rip off. I wish the internet had collectively dunked on him a little less, so that he'd have felt confident ripping off One flew over the cuckoo's nest for joker 2 instead of whatever the fuck this is
We all wanted Arthur to embrace his new persona and continue his character development. Joker 2 could have taken after One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s
If you want One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Phillips would have only ripped off Cuckoo's Nest like he did Taxi Driver and King of Comedy for the first one.
Or "Sweeney Todd". Joker and Harley would've been great as Todd and Lovette (sp?).
Stop it with the "superhero fatigue" already. The only thing changed is that people will no longer eat up anything and are selective with their money. Well-made movies that cater to the needs of their audience are still highly successful.
Deadpool and wolverine wasn't a well made movie. Furiosa was. Stop acting like general audience cares about the craft of filmmaking or even great storytelling.
@@nalday2534 It's almost like the general audience just want to enjoy a movie and have a life instead of dissecting it's "complex storytelling"
Seriously. It’s so lazy.
The superhero craze was indeed crazy. Lots of bad or mediocre movies made a ton of money. But people will still see good superhero movies. No one is passing up a great movie because it’s a superhero movie.
@@endrendstudios7665 cool go have at it. No problem, we know yall have garbage taste but why can't yall admit it? Why yall keep making excuses that oh well acktually it's not superhero fatigue it's BAD superhero fatigue as if yall care about quality and good storytelling. Just admit that yall are content consumers who are incapable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes and able to empathize with someone else's experience. Just admit that all you really care about is you (despite the fact that you have to rely on others' art to do that but I digress)
@@nalday2534 well I'd rather be a content consumer than a butthurt chud writing essays on UA-cam because he's jealous that everyone else is having fun
It makes me sad that FullFat doesn't get the views he used to get. This channel is great and he kills it with his videos every time. Not sure what happened.
It’s defo past the glory days of 2018 / 2019, but it’s still decent enough revenue for the time I put in! But yeah I think tbh it’s just an oversaturated market, UA-cam never pushes my videos and the marvel Star Wars boom is long over
He's aight definitely wouldn't subscribe
@@Cosmicshambler What a strange thing to share x
@@aloysiusthefish7076 It was funny asf tho, funny enough to make me subscribe to FFV
@@FullFatVideosI don't really remember your past videos, but I do associate this channel with quality, so that's a good thing, right? Been looking for Joker 2 videos out of curiosity, and plenty of ragebaiter videos out there, but seeing this channel, I knew I would get thoughtful analysis.
Calling Arthur an incel is just plain wrong. The guy had nothing against women, he wished to be loved and cared for but he never targeted only women or hated the world cause of women. That term is just soooo overused for loners these day.
Incel means involuntary celibate, anything else has misconstrued it over time. He is certainly that
@@FullFatVideosThank you for the answer and clarification.
If it's true that "good artists copy; great artists steal", the Todd Phillips made a crappy mimeograph of Scorsese.
EVERYTHING went wrong. The story, the direction, the theming, making it a fucking musical, this film feels like it was made to try and spite people who liked the first.
Poker face became Joker face is pure gold! Pure genius!
No one wanted a Joker movie where he's beaten, humiliated, gang graped and killed while Lady Gaga sings and prances around. Though the first movie made a billion it apparently had the ''wrong audience''. This new movie seems to have course corrected to include all the demoralization propaganda we usually see in modern media.
As someone who’s watched both taxi driver and the king of comedy I find it very shallow and tired to bring up the obvious similarities as something to criticize about the first Joker movie. It’s enjoyable in its own right and with the inclusion of Robert deniro it’s obvious they’re not trying to hide their inspirations here. It feels like people forget there’s more to a film than its premise. Music, cinematography, dialogue, editing, costume and set design, all of this and more seems to not matter when you get the opportunity to pretentiously bash the movie for sharing a similar premise to an older classic. Also, “joker iconography“? Besides the green hair and the joker name there’s nothing to latch onto in terms of familiarity, as far as the IP goes the movie was uncharted territory. Joker 2 sucked though.
I mean... Do you find the obvious similarities between The Force Awakens and A New Hope "shallow and tired" to bring up as criticisms? I'm glad people liked TFA but it's the same plot of the first movie, right down to the droid macguffin. A cameo doesn't sugar coat things. No it's not plagiarism or cheating or whatever but as film goers we don't wanna watch the same story all the time.
@@dante6985 thats within its own franchise, key difference there, the joker movie was giving comic book fans a fresh take on that character and story. So no, I don’t think my argument applies to the force awakens, sorry I don’t think that was the gotcha you thought it’d be. Also I’m a massive hater of the Star Wars sequels, but tfa ultimately delivered on being a pretty fun action adventure movie, with an incredible score, good performances, wonderful practical and cgi, beautiful cinematography, engaging action sequences, and even a cool new villain. Of course the second and third entries in that trilogy are actual abominations and I still scratch my head wondering how they fail so horrendously at everything they set out to accomplish. But credit where it’s due, TFA is a decent action movie on its own. It at the very least blows the prequels out the water. Ooh hot take for the nostalgia junkies. (Original trilogy is the only good Star Wars trilogy)
@@izzyandthesubterraneans370 So your response is "I'm giving The Force Awakens a pass because it's Star Wars too. It's cool if Phillips rehashes a plot because it's not in the Taxi Driver Universe".
🙄
Yeah.. maybe one day you'll drop this silliness. I personally don't want to watch the same story over and over. Most movie critics operate on that wavelength.
Todd Phillips also said that Arthur getting killed by the guy who eventually becomes the actual Joker was originally supposed to be the ending of the first movie. But once Christopher Nolan heard of this plan, he vetoed it from happening. They then were then able to use that ending idea for the sequel because, by that point, Christopher Nolan had parted ways with Warner Bros.
I don’t buy that story one bit
Where did he say that? My understanding was it was just him carving a Chelsea smile on himself that was axed from the original ending
@@FullFatVideos Gotcha. I’m probably misremembering what I read. But what you said makes far more sense
7:35 the point of The Batman was to have Bruce learn that the world doesnt work in black and white. As Selina says earlier in the movie "you see the worst in people". Alfreds response was supposed to force Bruce that prople are complicated and things dont work in binary. Understanding nuance is a fundamental part of his arc throughout the narrative. I find that to be far more interesting than Jokers empty and shallow attempt at showing an evil billionaire(which I still realise is a relatively bold choice for this medium).
Yeah but I think true nuance would have been for him to do something truly bad whilst being the good father to Bruce that he remembered. In the end he is literally referred to as a good man and it’s like the movie just couldn’t go through with it
@@FullFatVideosthat would've been too similar to T'challa's father's backstory in Black Panther
King of Comedy is 100 % my Mandela Effect. I've never heard of or seen anything about it before Joker, but suddenly everyone else knows it and know that Joker's heavily influenced by it. It really feels to me like it sprung into retroactive existence a few years ago.
No it always existed its just an old movie.
It bombed at the time and it’s often overlooked but it has always been critically acclaimed. I saw it in 2017 during a Scorsese season at the picture house and then when Joker came out it immediately rang true two years later
The film should’ve been a one off and I recommend yall watch The Wild Robot or Transformers One to help it make its money back and support good movies and cuz Animation is Cinema
No
@@GothAtheistyes
Yeah you really think the standard superhero fan is gonna see those ?😂
@@noxcureI would, since they look good
You're speaking my language towards the musical aspect of the film. So many reviews are talking about how bad of an idea the musical was for this movie while I wholeheartedly disagree. If they actually made it a real musical with numbers and all it would have been awesome
Aside from the ending and story of course
One of the many fascinating things about the King of Comedy is that what you make of the entire point of the movie is entirely based upon how funny or unfunny you personally find Rupert Pupkin's stand up.
Yeah, I’ve seen people say he’s brilliant and others say the point is he’s not funny, some think the audience laughter is genuine others thing the studio piped it in because he bombed. It’s so much more interesting than having him be so obviously bad
I honestly can't believe that even as a guy who's seen well over a thousand horror films, one of the most subtly eerie, gently heartbreaking, and uniquely disturbing films I've ever seen is a film called The King of COMEDY!!
😂😂😂😂😂
It is HORRIFYING 😅😅
The singing joke
Folié a Deux is just Todd Phillips homage to Martin Scorsese's 1977 musical film New York, New York. It also didn't make a lot of $ at the box office but costed a lot less
i loved the original movie so much so i’ll admit i did want a sequel but when it was announced that it was going to be a musical i already knew it wasn’t gonna match the first movie in any way.
I’m tired of the trend of punishing a fan base for their investment in a story just because they go against a narrative.
this channel is one of the few that I follow that actually makes an effort on making an actual review. Most of the others "reviews" are plainly retelling the movie and the last minute or two is the actual review.
What went wrong?
Making a sequel in the first place!
Funny enough, in my eyes, joker 2 doesn’t exist. Not tainting my view of the OG joker movie.
I always love your videos, but I think this might be one of your most insightful!
You make your passion and your points clear and I agree with your stance on Joker, didn’t plan on and don’t plan on seeing the sequel, of course now that I know it’s publicly reviled it’s easy to say I knew it would be bad, but the idea of it being a musical stuck out to me as an obvious red flag from its very announcement. The joker was a movie ashamed of itself, like they didn’t want to make a dc movie and could only get funded if it was, so they did everything to make it “real” and yet here we go with a musical, I had suspicions that it would be too afraid of that genre shift as well
I have never seen a filmmaker more petulant to its own core fans since maybe Matrix 4.
If you wanna do a sequel and be petty towards the studio. Fine. But do it and make it good, show them you can play ball and be engaging
Joe Dante
Gremlins 2. He was lured back and made a cult classic and embraced the zany nature and meta humor of the first and it's succes.
Also this guy is poison to his own franchises. That rape scene was so out of sorta mean spirited if in the first movie you wanted to talk about mental health, this isn't the answer. That scene made me hate this movie.
Right, at the very least they should be mindful of their own future careers, you'd think...Who's gonna hire the creator of one of the biggest box office disappointments of the modern era?
@HandofOmega assurance that they'd deliver with budgets but they destroy their cred like this clown.
What an idiot.
False. Wachowskis didn't hate fans of Matrix. They hated rw chuds who took the films Legacy and turned it into something it wasn't to affirm their own toxic worldviews.
I found the film disjointed and confused about its direction. It could have told the same story and explored its themes a bit more artfully. However, and this is a significant aspect for me, I was pleased to see it subvert expectations and ridicule the trite expectations of fanatics of the first film. Of course, psychopathy can be in part influenced by trauma, and the causes of that trauma need to be addressed, both within the individual and their immediate relationships, and further into wider society.
But that doesn't mean we need yet another film about a demented serial killer which tries to belabour the idea that 'but, they've got a point, eh?' No, they don't. They are not an anti-hero. They are not a messianic figure with a profound insight into modern society. They offer nothing whatsoever in terms of solutions.
I'm not sure how old most viewers were, or whether it translates to US culture, but as a Briton of Gen X, the unmistakable sound of the first notes of a song performed by a notorious paedophile raised my hackles instantly. It was pathetic edginess without the empathy and insight which the fans of Joker desperately tried to ascribe to it.
I'm glad to hear that, perhaps, that was the intent of the filmmaker all along, and that, in response to the distasteful enthusiasm for the character, he decided to throw a wrench into the entire endeavour.
Matrix 4 was clearly insulting the studio, not the fans, or the characters themselves...heck, the main reason the movie exists is because the direct lost her parents, and resurrecting Neo and Trinity was the only thing that made her feel better (only reason why Keanu got on board).
Speaking of the first movie...Fleck DID kill Beet's character, didn't he? I was a bit unclear on that, but that was the impression I got...(As to giving the Joker a rest, pretty sure he's the antagonist of the next Matt Reeves Batman movie, sooo...)
I never got that impression, but either way the ambiguity is squashed in Folie
@@FullFatVideos I got that impression from after her last appearance, when he breaks down crying in his room while sirens are closing in...but then, this IS Gotham, so sirens could be for anything...But I'd guess the courtroom scene in the new one addresses this?
"Superhero fatigue" is a lazy critique
Good thing I said lots of other points then
So they tried to hide the fact that it's a musical....even though the movie itself is BARELY a musical...
um. ok.
Who asked for lady gaga to star any anything?
Happy to know I’m not alone in disliking the original in the first place. I definitely get why it has fans but to me it is absolutely why founding these projects on trying to be a “grown ups” superhero movie is a farce. So many choices in this sequel feel so empty & ironically immature in the very desperate bid to read as “elevated” or “mature” for a superhero film & chasing an R-rating for its own sake as some badge of prestige
gotta disagree with the idea that Arthur really was Thomas Wayne's natural son though. that completely ruins the parallel of Arthur imagining a relationship with his neighbor with his mother imagining a relationship with Thomas Wayne.
But it makes way more sense for the class themes and unlike the neighbour fantasy she actually had a kid so it doesn’t need to be a parallel
what does that parallel actually add to the narrative, except for being 'kinda neat'?
I agree, his mom was insane and imagined having a relationship with him just like arthur imagined his relationship with the neighbor
@@Bvggerffplswhats left of arthurs world crumbles when he realizes his mom was fucking insane and made everything up in her head. He shortly after that fully becomes the joker
I think Joker is a great film that feels refreshing, even if I had already seen Taxi Driver. It still felt like a breath of fresh air to take that Taxi Driver like story and wrap it in a Joker skin.
Copying king of comedy and taxi driver is a breathe of fresh air?
@@based-ys9um to take what those films were going for and put it through the comic book skin was something really unique.
Kings of Comedy is a phenomenal watch. The themes and its message are clear and pack a punch even til this day. Looking forward to the disney doctor who review as well 👀🤣
I think it's funny how "superhero fatigue" comes up every time a string of bad movies come out and bomb because they're bad movies. A few mediocre movies made a lot of money despite being mediocre, Captain Marvel coasting off of the screen time in Infinity War for example, but I really don't see it as a sign of superhero fatigue when bad movies fail. It'll only be when a GOOD movie bombs that you can make a case for superhero fatigue. In that case, it means that despite it coming out, people just don't want to see superheroes anymore.
I see your point but there’s a marked difference in absolutely everything coming out and being a hit at the end of the 2010s to now. I don’t think Captain Marvel 1 would make a billion nor Aquaman now
Deadpool v wolverine worked because it was specifically created to make fans happy
It's engineered for the masses
But asides that
Fatigue is real they all mediocre these days
They don't want a superhero theme. They also devalue existing superheroes in the eyes of the public. This is happening with the intervention of Wonder Bros. .In Joker's first movie, the public's support for Joker and the image of public support were evident. But this is a situation that Wonder bros finds dangerous. They intervened by trivializing it with the sequel. They tried to make a folk hero look like garbage in the sequel. If you have noticed, superheroes, including Superman, all end up devalued for the sake of death and worthless purposes. You can see this if you look from a wide perspective. Joker offered the public the feeling he wanted with a small budget. Then this was deemed dangerous, here is the result
Thor was turned into a fat drunkard drinking character in one of his movies. Check out this and similar situations. It's not hard to see.
Why is the budget in Joker: Folie À Deux so high? Do you think a company could allocate so much money and make such a mistake? Normally it shouldn't do that. But it is not difficult to understand that the goal is not to make money. the perception of a folk hero, the perception of justice. And they don't want a hero savior that people all love in common.
A decade ago if you'd told me that a Harley Quinn movie starring Lady Gaga would be an unmitigated box office disaster i would have never belived you.
I really thought it was going to be everywhere. That first trailer had so much fanfare too!
It was like it was outsourced to the Disney Star Wars divison...that bad.
Didn't need a sequel -- the points J1 made were crystal clear. And it didn't need to be a musical, especially a jukebox one. The songs added nothing to the story. I'd respect J2 more if it at least had original music. And the performers keep doing that whispery-mumbly thing that drives me crazy. If you're going to sing, SING.
I don't think Joker makes the point that Wayne is actually Arthur's father...
Are you kidding, the dudes have the exact same nose and facial features
0:10 you know that's actually the first time I heard someone spell this quite right :)) most people add an unnecesary "e" vowel in there
You were doing well until you said everythings been said about the Joker and nothing will top TDK 😬 This is exactly the issue right here, a 'realistic' Joker, a psychotic with facepaint. They need to go back to the comic book version, TDK is a perversion of the comic character only based on a hand full of comics in a character thats 80 years old. Nicholsons and Romero are far more accurate and the further you go from the source material, ledger, phoenix, Keoghen the worse it gets. See the trend here? Ledger worked in TDK, Phoenix worked in Joker. Anything out side of that it doesnt work. They need to get back to the 1940s comics, not the revisionist tripe thats bern spewed out since 2008!!
They didn't even try to cater to the fans of the original movie
Great video, will you be reviewing Series 14 of doctor who?
Superhero fatigue is a thing but not currently happening. People won’t flock to the the theater if word of mouth is poor or mediocre.
I think the ingredients were there, they were just - maybe purposefully, spitefully - miscooked
I had a feeling that this was going to be bad from the moment they cast Lady Gaga as Harley Quinn, however when I saw Steve Coogan (F***ing Alan Partridge) doing an American accent in the trailer I officially refused to watch it and upon seeing all the negative reviews for this movie I knew I made the correct choice. Also this is an insult to musical movies as a whole and this is coming from someone who is a massive fan of them (e.g. La La Land, The Greatest Showman, Rocketman, Bohemian Rhapsody, both Mama Mia movies, The Prince of Egypt and even A Star is Born - as you mentioned a far better movie featuring Lady Gaga).
i hate how much movie these days are such cowards about being a musical, it never really commits to it and when it does it's usually in a very out of touch way with the reality of movies nowadays.
if you're not gonna embrace it being a musical then dont do it at all
How about don't pillaged, r@pe, and murder the main character.
I didn't think Brendan Gleeson was thankless, he was easily the best part of the movie
I watched the movie yesterday when it came out on digital because people were talking so badly about it that I wanted to save the money on going to the theater. I don't know if I went with my expectations so low or what, but I swear I can't see the bad in this movie. I thought it was GENIUS.
I don't want to be overbearing and say “oh, but you didn't understand” because I can perfectly understand those who didn't like the movie, but I understood the meaning and the layers throughout. Maybe it's me philosophizing beyond the film itself, trying to justify the scenes, but idk, I thought it was great.
Almost all the songs had a reason and few sounded out of tune. Okay, sometimes they went on too long, but most of them made sense with the story they wanted to tell.
And the movie takes a heavy turn after the scene with the guards when they rap... Arthur. It seems that the film breaks Arthur and shows everyone who projected themselves onto the Joker in the first film that he's just some guy projecting himself above what he was and in reality he's an extremely broken and traumatized guy.
I thought the ending was valid, after all, if he didn't die, what would he be? He'd go to jail?! But I thought it was a bit random that the guy killed him. But I think it must be some kind of metaphor that I didn't catch.
Edit: I saw some people saying that it could be heath's joker who killed Arthur and I went back to review the scene and I think it's a valid interpretation.
I thought the ending was better now but I personally would make Arthur stay stuck in the miserable arkham like he was, that way we would see Arthur at the beginning of the movie stuck in a miserable state, being manipulated to rise as something he is not (joker) so that in the end he only ends up in the same state he started, stuck in a miserable state.
Again, I don't want to be overbearing because I understand those who didn't like the movie, but I personally thought the criticism was so explicit that everyone would pick it up
And just to conclude: that part of the trial where they say “you spent less than 2 hours with Arthur and you think you know him” he is an TERRIFIC meta commentary
15:57 cant believe full fat videos hasn't heard of a discord kitten before
The Joker revisionism is getting on my nerves. It was a good to great movie, a visual marvel. It wasn't just the plot it was the cinematography, the comicbook aspect, the world building, the music!
It’s not revisionism from me, I was clear I felt like that in 2019
It's not revisionism. It was never a critical darling. On Metacritic it was in the mid-50s. Joaquin Phoenix deservedly won an Oscar but many people, myself included, said at the time "This is Taxi Driver with a clown.". It was solid! Not trying to knock it. But it wasn't received as a masterpiece in 2019.
@@dante6985 “Taxi driver with a clown” is just so reductive. De Niro was in the damn movie, it was a homage to those movies. While telling a comic book origin story, and it fit together perfectly, if you don’t think that’s cool then each their own I guess. Joker hate is trendy now so you’ll probably get a lot of support
@@sc4131 The entire plot of the movie is nearly identical to Taxi Driver.
A cameo by De Niro doesn't sugarcoat that. (If you include an actor suddenly it's an "homage" not derivative? An homage is honoring the prior film. George Lucas put ET aliens in The Phantom Menace as an homage to Spielberg.)
@@dante6985 Taxi driver is very simple, a crazy guy snaps and kills some people. The Joker is a crazy guy who kills people, his origin story being like taxi driver is a given. You're not saying anything, the real homages was the Maury stuff to Kings of Comedy, and some hints to Taxi driver in the social commentary.
10:24 What is this movie name
Barry KYO-gan, not "Keegan"
Other than that, great video! Agreed with pretty much everything you said!
Doh! Thanks!
my final comment, I think the idea that there are many people as the joker is not just a theory it's part of the cannon their are at least 3 diffrent people under that name and they are all diffrent but all still joker.
I want to see Kathy Bates playing a Joker.
Not sure who would direct it -- Mary Harron, maybe? -- but that would really break the mold in a lot of ways. Not to mention it might be good.
Arthur Fleck would be in awe of Travis Bickel if they met
it’s bad but also it’s the kind of bad that seems like it’s on purpose. like they made every choice to spite the studio and audience. successful anti-blockbuster imo, 7/10 (needed more Gaga)
As a director and writer you have to be aware of how the viewers think and how they'll react. I hate this phrase but it's true " It says a lot" if most viewers felt it was spiteful"
Folie á duex duex duex, push pineapple shanks the tree
I personally think it’s overhated but not good at all either
It’s objectively better than Morbius and Madam Webb saying it isn’t is ridiculous 😂
But it’s bad, like ANNOYINGLY bad and I feel like that’s the point but that doesn’t make it better
It’s time the “supervillain without their nemesis”genre DIES, like if it’s a spinoff that’s ok but when the hero doesn’t exist it’s useless
Even the good stuff like Venom is limited HEAVILY since Spider Man isn’t there
Losers use the word objectively because they know they're incapable of having any kind of argument whatsoever
I think what makes it worse than Madam Webb and Morbius is that it retroactively ruined a movie many people liked (Joker). Webb and Morbius may be awful but they don't really damage anything. They're inoffensive stupidity and don't seem to undermine any previous films or come across like an attack on fans of any previous films.
@@JurassicRod nah, Joker 2 while being bad, isn’t EMBARRASSINGLY stupid though, it’s clearly trying to do something but failing, it even has amazing actors and visuals
When it comes to Madam Webb and Morbius, they didn’t even try, it’s not even “so bad it’s good”, it’s so confidently bad that it pisses me off! 😭🙏🏿
Like they genuinely thought they could put no effort and that we would like it because we like Spider-Man
@@RyomenAyeni225 I don't disagree with you and I certainly don't want to try and defend those awful films. But I can see why Joker 2 has the hateful backlash more than Web or Morb.
With the excepcion of Deadpool 3 (which was more of a "nostalgia event" like NWH than a cbm), every single cbm released this year has bombed spectacularly, just like last year...and we still have Venom 3 and Kraven left.
Is not "super hero fatigue" at this point, is "super hero hate", general audiences are straight-up refusing to see these movies.
GoTG III did fine. Quatumania broke even, which yes is a disappointment.
@@WedgeOfSpite broke even? Be serious
@@WedgeOfSpite those came out last year though?
@@Jose-se9pu I mean... The only cbms that came out this year besides Joker 2 and DP & W are Madame Webb and The Crow. They were going to flop no matter what year it was.
@@dante6985Exactly. Madame Webb and The Crow sequel are dire films. Previous Crow films have failed financially/critically. Same for non-Venom Sony superhero films.
Fans aren’t tired of “Superhero movies.”
They are tired of bad writing. Tired of being demoralized by what’s supposed to be entertainment.
Did they actually confirm that Fleck was actually the son of Thomas Wayne? I don't remember that?
No it’s never confirmed or denied
@@FullFatVideos if I remember correctly (because I really don't wanna look it up) he found some documents saying he was adopted and he was neither Wayne's or his mom's kid
@@savageprince9829these can be faked
It didn’t need a second film, the ending was a perfect film to lead right into The Batman.
if steve Coogan called arther a spastic and a mentalist this would have been absolute cinema
Was gaga catwoman towards the end?
There are some stories that don’t need sequels and are best ending on a high note or up to the viewers imagination.
When you force out a sequel, you always risk running a beloved story into the ground for the sake of easy money.
Nah, bad movie fatigue, but not superhero fatigue, and even then, it's mostly normie exhaustion. Their minds aren't made to stay on a trend this long, so their brains are frying basically.
Straight to big budget flop graveyard. What a hoorible name for a movie.
Ultimately, the joker not being "the joker" but a joker is the same bait and switch shit audiences have been hating forever because of being a terrible twist. Most of the twisting audience expectations has become a common bad trope in movies rather than a clever misunderstanding.
Edit:
Remember birds of prey where the big bad black mask is a weak insecure fraud? Instead of Harley beating a villain, they make them some weak manlet with no power in truth. That ruined the movie for me. No clever writing, just a skip this scene like captain marvel's commander. They skip all catharsis and meaning.
Subversions are insincere. That's my problem.
Ok serious question. If joker 2 came out before this supposed "Superhero fatigue" would it still do as poorly? Same exact quality.
I think it would have done better 5 years ago yeah! Plenty of terrible superhero movies still made 500m+ back then
Maybe not hit as hard commercially but I really think it'd flop. I just don't see a fanbase getting behind this one.
@@FullFatVideos If your talking 5 years ago the closest example would be Glass. A movie that both fans and critics disliked for being a disappointing ending after a great first (and second) film. That made 40 million on it's opening weekend but that wasn't a musical nor did it have the leadup of bad press before release.
I don’t think it’s a great comparison because it doesn’t have a rabid DC fan base behind it
I’m a simple man. I see a Full Fat upload and I click it as fast as I can.
The joker is me sequence kinda slaps tho
Are we talking about how bad was the sequel or the first movie? First movie is good, period.
I never spoke about the original on the channel so I needed to double back
. Most people think this movie is awfull. But some thinks it's great.
2:14 All right, see, this is why official subs should be on UA-cam videos. The auto-generated ones just heard Maron as "Moron", and flagged it as a swear on the same level as the F-word. UA-cam, you're a ridiculous, non-functioning mess!
I think Joker is masterpiece regardless of Taxi driver and King of Comedy and it doesn't need a sequel, that is why it says THE END at the end of it. So, I want watch J2 even for free or out of curiosity.
Why drag Rupert into this?
You mean The King?
@@FullFatVideos Yes! And Ms. Long is aware.
@@micmaliss do you speak for Jerry?
@@FullFatVideos Jerry will not be back until later this evening, Mr. Pupkin.
And he trusts your judgment?
Nothing to do with superhero fatigue as this is nothing close to a superhero film. Every normie who was getting bored of marvel absolutely loved joker. The ‘superhero fatigue’ argument is also a take I only see midwits spout - people don’t get bored of good films, they get bored of bad films. If superhero films were still consistently good then no one would be talking about this - but unfortunately they’ve been making slop for a while so (obviously) people get fed up with slop. For example, 100% of the Disney plus marvel content is unnecessary slop and it has weakened the MCU, which until then, was putting out films which all felt like events contributing to a whole. But with endless tv slop, the MCU is diluted. By contrast, the penguin is a great show and the Batman was a great film. So if studios just put out great stuff with no slop, no midwits would be talking about superhero fatigue.
Jokerface parody was a missed opportunity
There is No Super Hero Fatigue!!! People Hate Bad Movies Period!The Director and the WB screwed the Fans as usual...👎🏾👎🏾👎🏾
3:07 On purpose, what with it having the _star of both of them_ in Joker.
3:58 I saw both of these and greatly enjoyed Joker anyway.
Have you seen hellboy the crooked man
Hell-no
The powers that be think we liked the first one because he killed people.. WRONG!!
WE LIKED THE FIRST ONE BECAUSE IT HAD A GREAT STORY LINE AND GREAT ACTORS. IT WAS JUST AN ALLL AROUND GREAT MOVIE. WITH SUSPENSE. WE DONT CONDONE WHAT THE CHARACTER ACTIONS WAS. WE JUST SPENT YEARS WISHING FOR A HEATH LEDGER FOLLOW UP AND THAT PERFORMANCE BY J PHOENIX DIDNT TOP HEATH LEDGER BUT IT SURE CAME CLOSE AND WE LOVED IT.
but…. This one also has the same great performances with the same actors, and there was social unrest in the USA after the first film as a result of the support that this movie made for ‘starting a movement’, it’s not a coincidence that people stormed the capitol soon after this film was released.
They can read your poker face😆They read it, crapped on it then called it “art” that you just wouldn’t understand. They say it’s deep but it’s actually a shallow mess partially meant to sell gaga’s new songs.
First off “Gotham” was not a CW show. It was a FOX show.
Secondly Harvey Dent appeared in like two episodes in season 1 and made a cameo in season 2. He never even became Two-Face.
I’m saying it’s Gotham esque in that a Batman villain is becoming said villain when Batman is a child
Brilliant video. I really enjoyed it
@@billmcdermott9647 cheers!!!
It sucks joker was only in the prison for 2 hours and never get out, no fight
Mate, where'd you get that jango fett shirt?
Someone got it from me as a present! I love it hahaah
Joker 1 was far better than you state, and I've seen the Scorsese movies. I empathize with Arthur, but not so much with Travis Bickle because there's no real background to Travis' story, something we have with Arthur and something a lot of people felt identified with.
What the studios and detractors of the first Joker found dangerous was that.
If Taxi Driver was filmed today and the politician he attempted to unalive resembled bad-orange-man, the press would love it, but Joker was more class conscious, there's the danger they preceived, and that's why existed the necessity to make a sequel almost nobody wanted, to destroy that character.
Also Philips forgets the power of martyrdom.
Killing Arthur could have made him more powerful to the eyes of the common men who idolized him in the first movie, not the "crazy fans"' strawman the media built to justify Joker 2's existence.
Wasn't the first movie originally slated as a one-and-done story?
I enjoyed all 3 movies. They're were great. The first Joker movies is similar to taxi driver and king of comedy in that they all have Denero in it.