Ryuji Sakamoto Deserves Better (Persona 5)
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- Опубліковано 18 лис 2023
- Ryuji Sakamoto from Persona 5 Royal, Persona 5 Strikers, and now Persona 5 Tactica, has a lot of really incredibly qualities as a character and while I would love to dive into everything that is amazing about his character, I more so want to focus today on why I think that Ryuji's development has been a bit lackluster in the Persona 5 games up to this point and how it could have been improved. This video is much more of a train-of-thought style of video focusing on one of my favorite characters in Persona 5 and with Persona 5 Tactica having recently released I hope that it solves some of the issues I raise in this video!
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#persona5 #persona5royal #persona5tactica - Ігри
Let me know if you like this new style of video! And who is your favorite Persona character that you wish got a bit more time to shine?
Also, if you haven't already make sure to check out Ali and I's new podcast, 'Thoughtcast: A Video Game Podcast' which is linked in the description!
It can't be understated just how much Japan dosen't like loud, fun, and 'disruptive' characters due to cultural stigma of disrupting the norm. We even saw this back in Persona 4, when loud punk Kanji and badass tomboy Chie rank near bottom of Japan's popularity polls, while they're 2 of the most popular members of the cast in the West. Poor Ryuji, he's just used as the loud funny guy to demonstrate how much cooler the much quieter Joker is, which is a damn shame.
It's like they didn't really comprehend that game was about rebellion & going against the grain. lol
@@DeeFig66 Please. Stop. Accusing Japan of missing Persona 5's point just because they have different views on some of the characters. The games were MADE with this audience in mind. The director even said he was very surprised they did well in the west at all.
@@BigKlingyfacts
@BigKlingy Yeah, I think that it's pretty safe to say that Ryuji is a character who just wasn't necessarily written with western audiences in mind, which is fair enough.
It's strange tho, since most of the anime characters Japan love so much are just loud, energic and phisical guys to the point even I, a western, can't really appreciate them (Naruto, Luffy, Bakugou, etc.)
Your point is really strong and correct, but then the whole anime/manga community demostrate the opposite.
ryuji's passionate, righteous anger sets the mood for the game so perfectly, i just can't imagine the phantom thieves without him
Yeah, he's like the beating heart of life for the thieves. He encapsulates what the thieves are at their core; the rage that they feel in facing injustice. He needs more respect.
Very true. He's has every opportunity to be the heart and soul of the game and I just wish that capitalized on just a bit more.
Competence wise, the PT would be fine without him. At best he serves to be a hype man for the group being vocal on what they group is all about.
@@thomasfairburn5254 Ryuji kind of kickstarted the whole thing though. Joker was too suppressed (because of the criminal record and all) during his first days in Tokyo -- it's visible through many of his dialogue options being meek and unsure. Ryuji became the catalyst for the confrontation: he went first into the castle, he dragged Joker with him to investigate it the second time. While Morgana and Joker carried out planning and strategizing, Ryuji was the main driving force behind the first heist. Also, nobody gives him enough credentials for making the first calling card and PT's branding until Yusuke refined their logo lol
You could say his passion and hype-building *ARE* his competence :D
@@AHeroWith1000Names Except Joker was fated to be the Trickster. Morgana would have ended up meeting Ren regardless Ryuji was there or not, I'm sure the writers could have come up with a way for Ren to meet the cat without Ryuji.
Thing is Ryuji is too confrontational which lands them in a lot of trouble when they ought to be subtle. I wouldn't call his passion a complete boon as it can be a bane.
Ann is just as much of a driving force as they could just use her and not Ryuji.
Ryuji's calling card was too juvenile, defiant and edgy which was criticised. It's only when Yusuke a more competent artist joins that their calling cards make a better impact with more class and sophistication like a proper Phantom Thief.
The sacrifice scene makes me so angry because it was such a wasted moment where Ryuji could finally get some overdue love and appreciation he rightfully deserved and instead he just gets beat needlessly. It's like the writers are terrified to allow their comedic relief characters to ever have an ounce of humanity beyond their introductions.
I would kill for an analysis of our dear boy, please do!
Yeahhh, I just think this could have been such an incredible moment and it just... Wasn't. Pile on that he was victim of physical abuse in the past, and it's just not my favorite choice that they made, even though I'm positive they didn't consciously decide to do this as a slight on abuse victims.
They do this with Morgana's return too at least in the orignal version, for some reason the writers thought it was funny for a charachter to return from death only for the other cast members to get mad.
I dislike this trope at the best of times due to how overused and old it is AS a trope, especilly in anime, (seriously anime girls beating the shit out of boys cause 'tee hee I'm tsundere' is shitty and poor writing) but it really does fall flat here, even more knowing Ryuji is an abuse victim; having your frinds beat you up and abuse you after saving them, in reality would be an act of ultimate betrayal which is why SO MANY people in the west sidlike that scene so much. While I do kinda get what Atlus was going for to try and lighten the tense mood, it really does wind up being in poor taste and Ryuji definatly deserved better, at the very least.
If I wrote the scene he;d show up confused why the girls are crying before surrounded by hugs as they explain they though he died, and he'll lavish in the attnetion before he says somthing funny and gets like, a playful arm punched bu Makoto or Ann before they all agree to get dinner. Easy, still room for a joke and no abuse in sight!
IIRC in the Japanese script, it has something to do with the fact that he tells them that they look really ugly when they cry, or something along those lines. The English script softened Ryuji's character a bit. Not enough to make him completely unrecognizable, mostly just changing certain things that either wouldn't really fly or would be hard to translate to westerners.
That said, still shitty and feel like it would've made more impact for him to been received more kindly. Like, regardless of him having just said something really mean, they're all just so happy to see he's alive, or something like that.
And thus was the censored versions
There are animations in game of the team beating him up including joker
Ryuji is amazing, persona 5 would lose 90% of its energy without him
Very true.
Lot more loveable the chue in 4..what a b
He's what hooked me into the game. Honestly and this was my first persona game.
@@robertchapman7451 chue?
A-FUCKING-MEN, RYUJI IS THE FUCKING GOAT
HE DEFINITELY IS
The issue with the post Shido palace scene is Ryuji's past trauma, is PHYSICAL. His dad was physically abusive, and Kamoshida physically assaulted him. Ive played other games that try to pull off this joke and its never funny. Its so bad specifically for Ryuji because hes been physically abused in the past, his trauma here becomes the joke and its incredibly distasteful. The issue isnt that theres a joke after the Shido's palace, the issue isnt even that they dont thank him. The issue is its a dumb physical attack gag on a character whose been physically abused, the fact that he just saved their lives just makes it worse, but thats not the main issue.
This isnt just a Ryuji issue though, it happens with Ann. Her story is about reclaiming her sexuality, and the trauma of being pressured into a "relationship" with Kamoshida and how he took advantage of Shiho because she refused him. Despite this Ann is the go-to for fanservice. Its the same thing with Ryuji but instead of physical gags its sexual ones, and its just as bad. Ann is handled a little better, but it still doesnt make it ok.
Back too Ryuji and Shido's palace, all they really had to change is, dont have them beat him up! Im gonna do my own quick rewrite for the scene.
Ryuji comes back and they all freak out because they where worried, Ryuji makes a dumb joke and everyone starts rolling their eyes and taking back what they just said, then they start laughing because, Ryuji's ok, theyre all ok, and everyone, mainly Ryuji, just joking around after something so serious is proof that theyre all ok, and then they all go to celebrate and maybe the player gets the option to thank Ryuji personally.
I think this works better, because theres still room to fit in a joke, but the punchline is no longer Ryuji getting beat up, the punchline is how quickly everyone returns to eye rolling and teasing, even after something so serious. I also think it paints the phantom thieves as better friends as they still get to poke fun at Ryuji, but they dont attack him or leave him behind. Obviously though Im not a game designer or much of a writer, so eh.
Good video though
In the anime, the girls just yell about how worried they were and it cuts to the credits. It's one of the few things it did better than the game.
I believe they wanted to demonstrate Ann taking back her sexuality and utilizing it for her own purpose. Its like a "yes im hot, I know how to use it"
I took it as catwoman or bayonetta type thing. Utilizing it as a tool.
Now could it have been handled better in certain scenes, like the nude painting fiasco, absolutely, no arguments there. But i will note even there she didnt want to be painted nude, and in the end she didnt and never was. She's just lucky Yusuke is either ace or dense.
This, exactly this
Where do you people see that stuff with ann? When did she reclaim and reaffirm it in main story or in her sl? Her sl is not about her sexuality at all? In main story only things regarding sexuality is her sleeping in guys room and laughing at ryuji at beach. She doesn't exploit it nor does she embrace and revel in it. Maybe it was too subtle for me? For me ann's arc was about not doing enough for what she loves
I personally feel that some people miss some of the deeper moments of Ryuji. It's easy to miss that he is one of the people that holds the group together and he is the driving force of most of the events. For example:
•he is the main one that wants to go after Shadow Kamoshida
•he pushes Ann into a tough decision that had to be made for Madarame
•his recklessness caused the group to have to deal with Kaneshiro
•he worded a complement horribly, causing a fight between him and Morgana
•he was one of the few people around to catch the infamous pancake scene
•he sacrifices himself to save the rest of the group and survives
•he is always one of the first people to protect people, as seen with the Cendrion situation
When it comes to the Shido palace scene, it is also easy to forget that they are all teenagers. Emotions are heightened at that age. It was wrong, but it's understandable with their age. Him not doing anything is also a possible side effect of physical abuse, some victims just accept things like that and it is depressing. But, it doesn't detract from the fact that Ryuji is always there. I can't speak on Strikers, but I know that Ryuji was handled correctly as a victim of abuse that wants to help people. I personally think that Ann fell off the worst and Haru needed her jail in Strikers with how little she has in the story of P5
It was more so his recklessness that allowed the thieves to tail Makoto so easily.
This is a nice reminder of everything great about Ryuji!
I like your take on how to make that scene at the end of Shido's Palace better. It does suck knowing that someone who was a victim of physical abuse be... physically abused, even if it *is* to lighten the mood... and I do understand what the writers were going for😬
Oh and I have to agree with the Konoe foil thing! I get that they wanted Zen to be the main focus there because of what happened to Akane, but it's true I couldn't help but think how Konoe's past must've resonated with Ryuji on a deeply personal level. A bit of a missed opportunity to not give him more focus here as well...
But yeah, you bring up how the social links work in P5 and... yeee one of the trade offs of relegating character development to them starting with P4 is that we no longer get strong, fully-fleshed out arcs in the main narrative like Junpei got in P3🥲(Though this isn't to say they couldn't figure out how to do both, like what most of the female party members got in P3. Hopefully in P6...? haha)
Overall I really appreciate how respectful and nuanced you were on this topic! I get that Ryuji is beloved in the Western and other overseas fandoms; rightfully so since his personality naturally meshes more with the cultural norms abroad. I get that people want better for Ryuji, I'd hope we all do, but it does get tiring seeing some criticism start getting really ethnocentric when East Asian culture simply values different things. So again, I appreciate that you were respectful of other perspectives.
Would be great to see your take on Ryuji in a dedicated video!
Thank you! I appreciate you bringing that up because when making this I did try to make sure I wasn't come across in a way that was inconsiderate of other perspectives even if they differ from mine whether it be due to cultural differences or otherwise. So I'm glad that came through!
OH HEY! I remember you from Tony4You’s video on SMT alignments!
Ryuji is the Best Bro ever. That is a true best friend forever. Everyone wishes they could have a friend as loyal and fun as him.
I always tought that maybe a way to evade the "girls punch Ryuji" while keeping the "silly Ryuji" vibe, is to have all the girls preparing the heroic hug, only to first have Morgana start Meowing(crying) at Ryuji's feet, only to have Yusuke hugging Ryuji crying while monologing about passion and you can join in or leave them be, but in anycase the mood is ruined and the girls leave with a hearthfelt yet uncomfortable "thank you" while they leave him to "have a moment".
This would have been beautiful.
Ryuji is the most compassionate, and passionate character in the entire game. Not to say the other characters aren't passionate ( cue Yusuke)
Ryuji really stands out to me as the driving force for some of the games most prevalent areas. I love the guy so much, and wish he was appreciated more.
Don't forget about the fact that ryuji jumped in front of a car to pursue makoto. I think the thing that makes him such a good character. Is the fact that he doesn't care about himself sometimes. He only wants to help the person in need.
I think the biggest flaw of persona/Persona 5 in particular is that the entire game is about teenagers rebelling against the restrictions set upon them by powerful adults and social standards and all the other rules of the world, but the game is also made by adults just like that, so while they want to make this point about going against society's standards, they are simultaneously trying to uphold those standards. It's why Ryuji is such a good character, yet they fall short of giving him a moment where he's allowed to shine; the people writing the game wouldn't want to hear a person like him out in real life. It's why Ann's entire story is supposed to be about her being sexualized and objectified and her standing up to those expectations of her, yet right after Kamoshida's palace it's a bunch of gags about her being hot and how anyone would want to be with her for her looks; the writers don't actually care about the message they're trying to put across. They're probably the same people who would sexualize a girl like Ann in real life, or demonize a boy like Ryuji, the same 'evil adults' the whole game is against. The writers aren't willing to actually push against what society says, so their characters, who are meant to, fall short of their true potential.
You can't make a game about how everyone should be themselves and rebel against society's oppression if you don't actually believe that
Also they really don’t understand what they have written
The phantom thieves aren’t really rebellious teenagers by the end of the story they are quite literally political extremists who get disillusioned by the government and society and actively commuted an act of terrorism they were set up as essentially anarchists but at the last moment are forced back to accept neoliberalism and let the police do things because it was “only a few bad apples”
Honestly, the fact that Konoe's actually effectively show how Ryuji likely would have taken things without the support of his fellow Phantom Thieves, is another reason I think Ryuji should have been his counterpart.
That is the problem he is not the bro he is just the funny louder guy they never tried to.make him much more then that and just down play him. The cat is the bro by the way 🙀
@@robertchapman7451did you have a stroke or something
True, Ryuji’s the bro of the group but they never do much more with him. Making him a counter for Konoe would have been a great idea to show just what Ryuji could have become if what his father did to him caused him to snap.
11:50 I don't remember the exact changes Royal made compared to Persona 5, but what made that scene so annoying in the original was that Morgana was wholly in the wrong. Instead of talking to the others-or at the very least, Joker-about his worries of getting replaced, he breaks one of the rules he had the Thieves implement in the first place: our targets must be chosen _unanimously._ And that's not mentioning how he went for the throat _and_ the balls in his comments towards Ryuji, while Ryuji's comments were the same banter he'd been sharing with Morgana the entire game.
And then *_everyone_* sides with the cat!
I call one of my roommates, who is a total Jojo fanatic, Joke-star on occasion. What happened between Ryuji and Morgana is like if I asked my roommate to move over on the couch, and said "thanks, Joke-star" and he starts screaming about my abusive uncle before running out of the house. Not cool at all! (and luckily, not likely to happen since me and my roomies regularly sit down for chats, because we're all autistic as heck, in wildly different ways, so talking out issues is the easiest way to prevent episodes)
Ryuji is given the shortest end of the stick every single time. Him defending Sophia by swearing is the most support I've seen him get in any game, especially since it's the only time I can remember him getting said support without a back-handed compliment.
And even then, that is more that Sophia is just a kind person to everybody and not that she favors Ryuji. That’s just sort of depressing that he is only really appreciated wholeheartedly by a person who is nice to everybody.
I really hate that the main takeaway for some people during ryuji’s rant against Emma for talking down to Sophia is that he was finally able to curse. Like that scene is such a great example of why ryuji is so great, coming to his new friend aid by backing them up and becoming emotionally invested in arguing for Sophia. When he is yelling at Emma you can tell he had to put up with some of the same types of comments that Sophia was getting. Genuinely one of the best singular scenes that says so much about a character in the persona series.
I mean it can be both yes ryuji says fuck but given why he says if it feels more like he’s stopped censoring himself or more accurately he’s so angry he just isn’t thinking about doing so he’s reached a breaking point and won’t stifle himself when Sophie is being barrated like that
considering ryuji's background, the scene of his friends just beating the shit out of him just felt so awful to me (and joker literally walking away just felt so out of character). like yea i know there's a cultural difference in this kind of humor but yeesh. not a fan in this instance
and i think i remember seeing a post of unused slapping animations ("This Persona 5 scene was supposed to be even WORSE" by Faz on youtube)
An unused cutscene at that.
Yeah, it just didn't quite land for me.
I'll just copy what I said about Ryuji from @LadyVirgilia's video about why Japan hates Ryuji: I just think it's crazy that Japan looks at Ryuji's character arc and says "Yeah, the story about the delinquent with an abusive father who actually decides that the best way to live is to NOT be a compliant brick in the wall or at best, not be beholden to those who try to shame me into taking responsibility for things that are literally not my fault, but I'm going to get mad at him anyway!" It's astounding and very confusing.
I think part of the reason why Ryuji's so loved in the West is because Max Mittleman's VA direction completely changes the direction for his character. Instead of being an intentionally annoying and grating butthead (see the comparisons between JP Ryuji and EN Ryuji when Operation Maidwatch comes up) comes off as both a jaded kid who's down on his luck and a complete loveable goofball. Truly the bestest of boys, which is why I made a ~13 video about him :p
Max Mittleman is truly a king.
You took the words right out of my mouth!
SPOILERS FOR Persona 5 Strikers:
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..
As soon was we learned of Konoe's trauma I INSTANTLY thought of Ryuji! Since Kanoe just wanted people to shut up & listen to him like his dad did, Ryuji would have used himself as an example of someone who really became different. The TRUE and already initialized spirit of rebellion (pre-Joker) who faced his hardship alone & came out of it a person willing to do everything he could to help the victims of abuse. They really did do him dirty by not having a character he connected to. A simple speech about not becoming what you despise would have really hit home, I think.
AND the fact that Kanoe was weak to Zio attacks just makes the missed opportunity for the connection even more of a blow! Also, it felt like Ryuji was the most enthusiastic about beating Kanoe but it was never acknowledged by anyone in the group & I swear, it felt like they had to remind Zenkichi that he was mad. Ryuji's blow up for Sophia & hard F would have been perfection Konoe's jail.
I used Ryuji 70% of the time for both phases of that fight & it was so easy, he was hardly a final(ish) boss. HE WAS WEAK TO ZIO. Just like how Alice was weak to Agio, Ango weak to Bufu & Mariko weak to Psy, Cog Joker to Almighty... this shit writes itself.
I didn't even think of the fact that Konoe was weak to Zio. That makes me wish this was a thing EVEN MORE.
Honestly, Ryuji is one of the more solid members to use in Strikers anyway. His charged up Zio combos + his heavy physical ones just destroy a lot of mobs you fight. Was definitely one of my go to members through the whole game. And yes, Konoe should have been Ryuji's Jail mirror.
This was sooooooo worth the wait!! I appreciate this video so much, especially as someone who is trans and queer; I bring that up because Ryuji gets labeled as being trans/homophobic, and nothing broke my heart more than not being able to date him or have queer options, because a romantic relationship between him and Joker, feels more naturally than the forced hetero paths
He is literally my favourite character not only in Persona 5 but in all of Persona period. So yes, I 100% agree he deserves better from the games and I would love to see a video on him by you.
I really enjoy him as well! And making a Ryuji video is a DEFINITE possibility.
Ryuji embodies the themes of P5 the most of the rest of the cast. The idea of acting out, being treated as an outsider, and using that to achieve your means. Funny, enough I think Ryuji reflects Akechi very well, Ryuji acting out was a means to an end to bring justice in a situation where there is none. On the other hand, Akechi decided to embody the character he played and become the thing he hated himself. The escapist fantasy of an outcast bordering the line of good and bad operating between the law as a vigilante is the idea P5 was built upon.
"Since your name has been disgraced already, why not hoist the flag and wreak havoc...?" - Captain Kidd
As opposed to simply wreaking havoc blindly, as Akechi would, it was directed primarily to the root of Ryuji's suffering... Kamoshida. It all comes down to playing the bad guy for the sake of what is just. But never truly intending to maliciously act as a bad guy. It's all for the sake of a greater cause.
Honestly, Ren IS Ryuji... But the cool, calm, and talented version of him
Its so bizzarre to me how no one ever talks about Futaba and Makotos characters from the Okumura arc low point, its always about Ryuji and Morgana arguing. When that same scene completely obliterates the suspension of disbelief in Makoto and Futabas characterisation as the supposed super geniuses the game wants you to think of them as being. You have characters who are presented as so intelligent they can for example instantly memorise a code in the middle of a battle or instantly grasp the concepts and workings of the metaverse by a surface level explanation or come up with the plan to get Joker out of jail among other shows of smarts. BUT these same characters dont see the obvious similarity between the principals death and the death of Wakaba they just spent a fuckin month exploring. Instead their reaction is ''oh no the egg got depressed cause we exposed his favourite predator and killed himself, are we the bad guys?'' FFS Makoto even had Sae spoonfeed her a clue that it was infact not self inflicted as ''why would he be going to the police station if he was going to end it''. and she just idk, forgot for the sake of plot convenience?
It completely ruins both their characters and every part of the story going forward that relies on their supposed intelligence.
The big issue with Ryuji's "comedic relief" is that his trauma is based on physical trauma and the supposed "comedy" scenes of him are either the weird leaving him with the creeps (so potentially sexual abuse... which doesn't sit well with his story in general either) or him being... physically abused. He could be comic relief without the supposed "funny" moments being in bad taste and poor contrast with his past. He has a past of being hurt and those around him who are his friends and those he's closest to just repeat the cycle. It makes the girls of the cast look like hypocrites for repeating the abuse they claim to be against, and it makes the guys look bad for not standing him for him and defending him.
Those scenes are not required, there are so many other forms of comedy that could have been used with him. I don't think I have to list off any of the comedy tropes anime and anime adjacent games like to use like romantic/sexual comedy, or potentially him phrasing things poorly in a comedically way. He could have been funny without making the trauma victim a punching bag.
I love the Persona 5 games, but they really fumble the bag on Ryuji. Like, I get that his archetype isn't a thing japan props up as a thing to be proud of but like, isn't the point of Persona as a series to call out the problems of society and depict heroes fighting against it? It would have been so much better if he was characterized under this archetype and as a "don't judge a book by it's cover". If half of the JoJo protags are allowed to be this archetype and kept cool and funny in equal trade, Ryuji and any other Persona characters that fall under it deserve that same level of respect.
Call it what you want
“Comedic relief” in terms of being treated like a punching bag by others is not comedy
It’s sadism
Ryuji was written to be the comedic relief/butt monkey character,but he truly cares for the PT.
When the game first starts,he tries to break out of the prison cell,but is quickly overpowered. He tries to get Ren to escape so he doesnt have to suffer Ryuji's fate.
Or the escape from Shido's palace. He was the only one fast enough,with a bum leg,to reach the lifeboat. He then comes to in the real world and makes a crack about Ann's crying face,him not reading the mood correctly,and getting the shit beaten out of him.
Or when Kasumi lost the use of her Persona. Ryuji was the first ready to rush in to save her.
Ryuji may be brash and stupid at times,but he will risk it all for his friends.
This might be an unpopular opinion but. I wouldn't mind a full game with just first three characters you meet. Like don't get me wrong I love the rest of the phantom thieves. But idk I really enjoyed the early game dynamic of Joker, Ryuji, Morgana, and Ann. That they could really explore their characters a bit more, especially since Ryuji, and Ann take a back seat like halfway through the game so they could put all the focus onto the other phatom thieves!
Also there all the most similar. Ann, and Ryuji, basically already know each other, and they both suffer from abuse. And Joker and Morgana our basically outcasts, maybe fully exploring that, and how they bounce off each other could make an interesting side game!
Yeah, many agree with this sentiment because the four bounce off of each other really well.
I LOVE Ryuji! He’s like a human golden retriever. I do think the issue is cultural differences between the west and Japan.
I wouldn't mind taking the game's writing into my own hands. Start from the beginning, and work my way outwards.
My overall rewrite will include this:
Each of the Phantom Thieves learns their lessons on how to be better people and it applies to the main story.
Haru and Yusuke will be flipped around. The PT will meet Haru through Makoto, maybe they'll help her with her gardening due to some shenanigans, find out about their father, and Scooby-Doo their way into her life like they always do. Meanwhile, they meet Yusuke through Futaba's help, as she tracks him down, and the PT help him.
Everyone will be comic relief as much as they are their own unique characters.
I am also probably going to write out all of the romance, especially with Sumire.
Hmmm. I'm interested. Please elaborate.
The scene where they beat Ryuji up is the most infuriated I was in the ENTIRE game. It adds nothing, isn’t funny, and is straight up them being rude and insensitive to his KNOWN history with physical abuse. I’m with you as Ryuji deserves so much better, is such a bro, and is one of my favorite characters in the game
AAAAAAAAAAAAAH. yes yes yes. i've been waiting for someone on youtube to talk about this. ryuji is such an important character to me, the way he gets progressively treated worse by the narrative even though he is still written as a character full of heart, with an ultimately selfless soul that wins out against his fame hunger arc in the end, has made me so sad. it's so tragic, he could have had more, more than just being the lovable but overshadowed comedy guy in the background. it's such a weird case of the writers somehow understanding completely how a character with his trauma and personality would act, and keeps it consistent throughout the game, but the narrative suddenly treats him different and like comedy because of it. i wonder if someday we'll get a strikers 2 that gives him as much love as strikers did to characters like haru and yusuke, or maybe i'm just being wishful
edit: if you have more to say about him i will eat it up btw!
EXACTLY! God so true bestie you tell them 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
@@reVALcoree HOW DID YOU FIND ME
It is unfortunate that starting with P3 the "best friend" characters are treated like audience proxies, with the purpose of being tutorial party members due to each leading protagonist being silent. Naturally that doesn't translate well into their many spin-offs.
It started with P4 tbh, Junpei doesn't really feel like a surrogate at all.
He really did/does deserve better.
Junpei, Kanji and Dojima are my fav 3 dude persona characters.
Junpei is extremely easy to flanderize for 'laughs' by making him hit on girls, despite showing both in P3P femc Social link he can be totally normal around girls, and his relationship with Chidori how when one on one hes actually extremely careful about respecting their space but still showing he cares. At least P4U shows that with being a little league coach, but that inherent empathy gets sidelined for 'the lolz'.
Kanji is just a constant gay joke, his title in Arena literally in Japanese being Gachi Muchi, a subgenre of gay porn involving wrestling. His social link gives him more care, but... again, flanderized because the writers suuure love themselves some queerphobic lols.
Dojima ... look in P5 strikers you literally get a Police Investigator who joins the team, has a young daughter hes having issues being closed to/gets pulled into a dungeon, and has a dead wife who's case is unsolved. You can not tell me Dojima couldn't have also been a Persona User if you're just gonna use that same scenario again.
... man Im just full spicy takes today, dang.
I’m playing Persona 5 right now and had an instant liking to Ryuji.
He may just be silly, but he’s so much more than that. He’s been through physical abuse case after physical abuse case, and was the force that made half the characters do/make hard decisions.
Had some of the best dialogue and character interaction in the game
Additionally his friendship with Joker is so perfect. Such a golden retriever of a boy, it’s perfect. The best bro I’ve seen in gaming history so far.
Without him this game wouldn’t feel the same
Best BOY 10/10
I LOOOVE MY BOYYYYYY
im sobbing why tf is atlus like that
why didnt he get his own time to shine
Ryuji the goat one of the few characters that i actually care about in fiction
Unironically, the beat up scene only needed two things to be a lot better:
1. Have the beating come from only Ann (she's the one closest to Ryuji besides the MC so her being especially emotional at the moment would make more sense) while also making it just a singular but pretty loud slap. Ryuji reacts with a "OWW, What was that for?!" to which Ann just replies "You made us all worry!".
2. Have it so after that everyone immediately goes to him and they, effectively, all hug Ryuji. To make the emotional moment of Ryuji's "hey guys, I'm actually alive" hit even harder, have Ann cry a bit while saying how she thought he'd died (like I said, she's the closest to Ryuji with the exception of Ren), Futaba just bawls her eyes out (the trauma of losing someone close to you is something got over very recently so the tought she'd just lost someone again would justify this, plus she's the youngest and generally more emotional of the Thieves so I think it would fit), and even Morgana (who totally isn't crying, according to himself) expresses how worried he was for him. And to end it on a still emotional but slightly more comedic tone, have it so Yusuke is also crying a bit, so Ryuji points out "Why are you crying too, man?". Fade to black, end scene.
Nothing else has to change, Ryuji's temporary "death" still happens, the grief still comes out in an emotional outburst from Ann with a slap, and then the scene ends with basically reinforcing that the Thieves really care for each other at the end of the day. I'm not even that angry at the scene, I just think it could have been much better written.
Ryuji always been the bro, maxed his confidant first and never took him off the team even in NG+
a full video would be amazing
The Akira Konoe thing is especially potent when you realize that all the bosses up until now were weak to the elements of their foil character. Konoe's weakness is electricity.
So... I fully admit, I'm not as big a fan of Ryuji as most people are. I LIKE him, but he's far from my favourite in P5. And I think it's probably for the reasons in this video, that the story doesn't do much with him after he joins. But I also can't help but compare him to the other "bro" characters in earlier games, and how their arcs were handled in comparison.
First Junpei, because he's easiest. Junpei is probably the most uncontroversial of the three bros. Nearly everyone who's played P3 loves him. And what helps is he gets his own dedicated subplot, dealing with his initial immaturity, hero complex and jealousy of the protagonist (for seemingly doing everything he can better), to making a major mistake due to his ego that puts him and the whole team in danger, to learning from that and ending up the most mature, level-headed member of the party. This could be done because he wasn't a Social Link, so none of his development needed to be optional.
Another great thing about Junpei plays into what you talked about around 9:00. Persona 3's story knows WHEN to make Junpei funny and WHEN to lay off and treat him seriously. The timing of his comedic moments is a lot better.
Then, Yosuke. Yosuke I feel has all the problems of Ryuji, but isn't nearly the source of debate Ryuji is, although he kinda used to be. Maybe P4 is just fading from memory, or maybe the good points of his arc outweigh the bad? Like Ryuji, Yosuke is the first party member to join, and the first besides the protag to awaken to their Persona. And like Ryuji, they get all his development out there and so he has little to do for the rest of the game. And like Ryuji, he's relegated mostly to comic relief afterwards. Personally, I always found Yosuke's bad comedy moments even worse than Ryuji, as he's either the subject of unfunny slapstick, the universe crapping on him to a ludicrous degree, or he's making awkward comments towards the girls or Kanji. That last point might be why his treatment is less contested, given he's... not as outwardly likable as Ryuji is.
But what might also "save" Yosuke is comic relief isn't his only role. Yosuke is also the mouthpiece for the silent protagonist, the one to say what they're thinking in story scenes, and thus the one to handle most of the detective work before Naoto joins. In Persona 5, this role is filled by Morgana, so Ryuji really has nothing besides comedy.
I think the main reason Ryuji didn't really "click" with me is that the game kind of acts like he had an arc despite it being half-baked. Late game, right before the Shido arc I think, Ryuji gives Joker a heartfelt talk about how he feels like he's grown so much... over a phone call. This is treated like some big epiphany for Ryuji, and he's not even on-screen! It also doesn't feel "earned", so to speak. Ryuji's loudness got everyone in trouble once, but that was AGES ago (Makoto/Kaneshiro arc), and the only other moment he had was the Morgana fight, which does more for Morgana's development than it does for him. (Hot take, I don't mind these moments, and Morgana's ultimate conclusion that he was being tsundere and really does value the PTs as a kind of "found family" is valuable and... honestly, kinda relatable to cat owners) Tldr, the game acts like Ryuji went on an arc to overcome personal flaws like Junpei did, but he... didn't, really.
7:15 As LadyVirgilia mentioned, this is a common problem with Persona 4 and 5, because party member development is restricted to optional social links, it leaves less room for them to develop in the main story.
When I was playing P3P, imagine my surprise when two Full Moon Operations are specifically focused on the comedic relief character and said character actually had a heartfelt character development. The moment I knock on his door and only got a dialogue box telling me “Junpei’s in his room, but he doesn’t seem to be responding…” or him worrying abt math being more difficult all the sudden, I knew what Junpei outlaws in compared to the other bro characters in later games
It was so wild to me at the time, I actually cried and slammed my desk when it happened. It makes my heart boil thinking of Ryuji after that. They’ve done it before and they don’t take advantage of it! A character who at the beginning of the story is complete pervert to girls and wants to bang them, suddenly actually gets one and when he does she died in his arms? FANTASTIC, and it’s satisfying to see it. I’m not asking Ryuji to have his own girlfriend or anything, but if he actually changed over the course of the game then *show me in the main story.* I wanna see him change after his arc in the main story, and this applies to other party members too
Still am gonna be a fan of both Junpei and Ryuji after this lol
Yeah, like there is growth TECHNICALLY during the main story, but it's never really highlighted and it feels like an afterthought at times like "Oh yeah, Ryuji's doing good too btw" like, I really enjoy the idea of him as a character and there's is a lot to explore regarding the why behind his actions, but the game just doesn't always lean into it as much as I would have hoped. And honestly, I don't mind Morgana either! I feel like it's a circle now, he's hated because he is Morgana and he is Morgana because he is hated. lol
Don't forget that Yosuke was meant to be an actual gay romance option in p4 but they scrapped the idea very late into development to the point where they actually recorded voice lines for the cofnession scene; combine this with how he and Kanji clash and makes implications and assumptions about Kanji (Who isnt gay jsut likes girly hobbies and thats okay) its HEAVILY implied Yosuke has a severe case of the gay, having feelings for Yu and is terrified others will find out about it.
I love Ryuji so fucking much and will give him all the love Atlas didn’t
😁ryuji was a great character that doesn't get the respect he deserves, he is a real bro, that's alway there for the main character and the others, even when they make fun of him, or hardly listens to his ideas or suggestions. Ryuji is a kindhearted character that is loyal and good natural, similar to persona 4 kanji, but characters put on a violent front to hide their true self to cope with the trauma they suffer ryuji with his abusive father and teacher, and kanji with being alienated for his hobbies and believing he wasn't manly and something is wrong with him. I really like both arcs the characters go through and don't believe they should be remembered for only being the comic relief character.
Now this got me thinking… I do wonder if Ryuji and Morgana’s argument theoretically could work if the game was building their relationship to be more friendly rivalry? (and like you said, have Ryuji get more spotlight after Kamoshida’s Palace)
I’m not sure how this would work in execution, just wanna give my two cents here 😅
Thete fight passed me off the dam cat talks shit to him from the word go and the 1st time he fights back loom what happened
Hot take but big disagree on how these "funny moments" undercuts Ryuji's integrity as a character. There's enough subtle cool moments from him along with the funny which really don't undermine the essence of what makes him great. It worked with Junpei because of how P3 was structured as well as what Junpei went through is different from Ryuji.
When talking about Ryuji's impact in the story, I think you and most others forget is that his overall character arc was all about maturing from his biggest flaw: which was how throughout the game, his priorities slipped from "getting back at rotten adults and helping others" to "taking down a big target in order to get famous and prove naysayers wrong" with feelings of entitlement to being acknowledged, praised and rewarded (like using the PT fame to pick up girls) for doing good deeds.
Okumura arc, Ryuji was at his worst with the popularity going to his head, to where he gets humbled post arc, with Haru's dad's death, the fans turning on them and being hunted down, Ryuji learns to appreciate what it means to be "a hero that lurks in the shadows" instead of "wanting to make an impact like a firework".
So that scene of him saving the day and not expecting praise and gratitude for it ties up his development well IMO.
It's different from his confidant which is all about getting redemption and closure with the track team and embracing his new place to belong with the PT. Obviously that maturity from him doesn't show itself in the main story as it tackles something different. It's not whiplash or Ryuji being on the backburner. It's P5 tackling two completely different avenues of Ryuji and his development.
I really don't think he's "untapped potential" or "deserves better", he fulfilled what he was always designed to be and had his story done and dusted back in P5R.
With Strikers, Zenkichi had to be at the forefront as it is more personal to him during the Konoe arc. They don't need to lean hard on Konoe being a foil to Ryuji. If anything Akechi has more similarities to Konoe than Ryuji. There's nothing else that could be done with Ryuji hence the others getting more focus than him.
Our yellow haired yankii deserves more
I actually focus on the scene, i was a crying mess. And needed a moment, before I continue Playing. I was happy to see that he was alive.
I want to see a Japanese Persona fan and an American Persona fan do a lets play or stream together and see just how much their views differ on the characters.
I think you are right in that Ryuji is a compelling character that Atlus didn't flesh out outside of his Social Link. This is to the point that despite me loving his social link, I just couldn't stand the way he behaved in the main line story. I know he's funny to some people, but personally, his humour is just a bit outside of my comfort zone...
Ryuji was such a freaking beast man. Mess with him and he'll make you pay for it. He was the bravest one out of the entire gang and could stand up to anything
9:32 As someone else said: Wrong character, wrong time.
let's hope this video ages well
Agreed.
Persona 5 was challenging the typical cultural view to Japan, "Is there any circumstance in which rebelling against authority/your elders would be good?"
It puts you in the perspective of Japanese students unfairly persecuted by society to a ridiculous extent and are given the same advice that any Japanese students would be given in real life, "Obey your elders, don't get involved in the business of adults."
The original game also ends shortly after Joker makes a deal with Sae Nijima in which she promises on behalf of all adults that they will not allow society to become so corrupt again.
With all of this in mind I think the true purpose of Persona 5 was to show that rebellion is sometimes necessary and that people should challenge their preconceived notions that a rebellious character is bad...
All of that being said from a western perspective the moral of this story would just serve to reinforce the beliefs that many people already hold, so there is no real stigma against characters like Ryuji who represent the spirit of rebellion, because it is already seen as a good thing.
Although perhaps western audiences could do with a little counter-cultural influence of their own at this point, there is no doubt that Persona 5 did so well overseas to a certain extent because it specifically doesn't challenge the world view of those who not only question authority in some context but perhaps resent authority in an overly broad context. It's pretty clear that Persona 5 and especially it's spin offs play with for laughs the idea that the Phantom Thieves are far more radical even though these jokes might be taken dead serious by certain extremist in western audiences. I think of Haru's comment about how they "despise the police" in strikers, Obviously meant to garner laughs not applause.
I guess i never realized how much ryuji gets sidelined. I thinkn because i ALWAYS had him on my front line. He was a main stay for me. From vanilla tp royal, beginning to end. But yeah, its unfortunate how bad the gsme treats him. Homie deserves better
I definitely agree that he deserves better. He is Joker’s first friend and he doesn’t deserve the shit he’s giving by that insufferable talking cat. Look I love cats but I hate Morgana especially with how creepy he can be towards Ann who’s a teenager!
❤❤ Ryujii is one of persona’s bestest boys like junpei aki korumaru yosuke and kanji
I think everyone understands and is fine with them having levity after Shido's Palace its HOW they decided to have that levity and that it wasnt levity. At least from what Ive seen, no one enjoyed or felt good about that scene. People either were neutral, cause its supposed to be a haha scene or they didnt care too much about it, or negative cause the girls were unreasonale and boarderline out of character and what they did makes no sense to do. I think we all saw what they were trying to get across but it was flawed in general. ESPECIALLY if you did Ryuji's social links and know his history
thanks for the video John , and i agree 100% Ryuji literally puts up with the worst stuff in the game imo (aside from the girls) saves the day after the shido palace and doesn't get rewarded for it. i'm going to rant a little here but thats my biggest problem i have with relief characters in Jrpg''s they never get the attention they deserve and are treated badly by the other people in the game. Don't even get me started on THAT scene in Shinjuku.
Yeah, I think that there's just some untapped potential here and I really gets some time to shine in Tactica.
Ryugi is best boy easily. I always thought that for his character to be more impactful they could have done what they did to aketchi for him and have him die in shido's palace at the boat with him being revived at Maruikis palace which would lead to alot of people missing him for the moments that he is gone and have that decision with maruki be so much more tougher.
Ik why this isnt in the game like the fact that maruki didn't exist until royal and the whole dying and coming back fits aketchi better, plus doing Yaldabaoth without him would be pain if your like me and put all your time into him. But still, i think it'd be interesting if ryugi did die and come back only to die again.
Ryuji is my best boi! ❤
Yes psychoanalysis of ryuji, please
He, Kanji and Jumpi are best boys
While he May be neglected in the character department, he is always top tier as a unit In every game he is in
Very true.
Give us the full psychological break down 😮💨
I will say, technically Ryuji is Joker's partner, or right hand in the phantom thieves. Charging Commander. Although that isnt reflected in the gameplay or story much.
I really enjoyed the character of Ryuji and i legit treated him like my best friend throughout the game. If the option to hangout with Ryuji ever came up "Makato, babe i gotta hang out with Ryuji tonight sorry."
Like he radiates good boy energy and i think he really vibes with western audiences. As the other thieves resemble more traditional Japanese traits. I dare so he was the best bro character with Yosuke only slightly behind him only because the jealousy subplot is annoying especially when Junpei did that in the prior game.
Even my favorite team was codenamed double date, with Joker, Makato, Ryuji, and Ann.
Honestly him and Yuskue were main reasons to folks bemoaning the lack of gay options. Especially in Persona 4 and Yosuke and Yu looken all sus.
I think from how Persona 5 treats Ryuji makes rank Persona 5 lower on my personal rankings. I love the story of Persona 5 and watching the growth of the chartacters is so satifying. However I always felt like Ryuji got the short end of the stick. Compared to Kanji and Junpei they each got their moments to shine in the story and are more than just ha ha characters. I felt like he was stuck behind an invisible door waiting to go through to unlock his potental. I enjoyed his character more when it was his more initmate moments and him opening up to everyone. For some reason I feel like Persona 5 kind of struggles with trying to distrubite how a character impacts the story.
I am ryuji stan!
Yes he does deserve better he’s great. I think the phantom thieves would be a lot less lively and more boring without his big personality. Great video
I always thought his bickering and drama with Morgana and making him leave was stupid, making after the stuff I've been through hearing his story in his confidants and help to right doesn't matter at all.
Even Persona 5 the animation does Justice to Ryuji for the post ship rescue
I hate that i couldnt help but watch this and spoiler myself but also it was REALLY GOOD so im not actually upset ajxhsgzg
i relate to ryuji on every level imaginable and i cannot stress enough how badly he is mistreated in the game it’s so infuriating
Honestly, I started the game hating Ryuji because he kept making stupid mistakes and getting the party in unnecessary trouble, but then when there was the clash with Morgana that HE had to apologize even though Morgana will never misses a chance to berate him, and the second one is when Ryuji risked his fcking life to save everyone, his reward? Getting his ass beaten
I don't know why this game have such a hate boner for this guy, he can't catch a break. Also they need to change his hair it's bad lol.
eh, we have Kiss Ryuji day lol!
in all seriousness tho, Akira's Jail should've been our window to Ryuji's character, but instead its parallels were given to Akechi, a character who doesn't even exist in Strikers.
Also yes! Psychology of Ryuji!!!
It feels like every "Bro Character" gets flanderized and forced into playing the butt monkey by the end of their game.
It happened to Junpei.
It happened to Yosuke (arguably got it the worst)
And it happened again with Ryuji.
Not so much with Junpei as he does clap back at least once to which Yukari then retracts her statement. Yosuke… Yeah, I can see that even from the early game where he gets so much flak for little reason.
Really like your analysis. Ryuji does get shafted somewhat in the story. I believe ryuji stands out to us in the west because western culture teaches us to stand out. Japan does not like that
I know a lot of boys in high school that talked like Ryuji
Also character I didn't really get why is he so popular was probably Akechi, he was very much a poster and I thought would be another phantom thieves but we only get to be with him for so little during JUST ONE mission, I already know he was going to betray me in the end but even still in his royal expansion doesn't add much other than he become a one dimensional psychopath AND THERE'S NO REDEEMING CHARACTER IN THE END. I was very disappointed considering how popular he is and I was really expecting more to tie the ribbon in his character. It really felt like the opposite of Ryuji where his just unpopular but I always like him as a character and his arc and Akechi how popular he is and I didn't really enjoy him as a character and his arc.
I fully agree with the title brouij needs more respect the group treats him like trash.
I think your off about Ryuji dude or missed the clear arc he goes through after Kamoshida's palace. As time goes on he starts getting a swelled head about the phantom thieves popluarity and you see it through his lack of self control regarding the topic. People overlook Morgana's arc up to the argument but also ignore Ryuji's honestly. And instead only see the surface not what's underneath which is why it frustrates me so much when I hear the same generic arguments for it. After Haru's father dies and Akechi busts them Ryuji admits that he was so excited about the idea of being a hero he let it go to his head. His development throughout the game is about learning to fight for what's right even if there's no reward for it. That's also why the ship scene works so well, it's him risking his life without any ulterior motive to save his friends.
I also disagree that his F you in strikers is bad writing and actualy is the exact opposite, people remember it because of how it's used. Throughout the game he's among the charachters who get's really close to Sophia and when he defends Sophia in that scene you can feel all the history of abuse he got. He may not have his own charachter arc but he DOES show his own development from the first game throughout strikers.
That’s true he does change throughout the course of the game, but Ryuji’s arc doesn’t really get a ton of time and attention given to it hence the video, and often times it’s undercut and/or overshadowed by other characters in the same breath. And while Ryuji’s arc is getting the realization that going for the glory isn’t what matters and this does culminate in his actions in Shido’s palace, I just wish that there had been more leading to this either before or after this moment because as it is, there’s just not a ton there other than him realizing his priorities were out of line immediately after a tragic event. This isn’t a slight on Atlus, or the writing, or anything like that. They just didn’t prioritize him in the main story and I subjectively wish they had and am hoping they give him more in Tactica.
Also, I don’t believe I ever said that it was bad writing that he uses the f word here. It’s a great moment and I think all Persona games are exceedingly well written. I’m saying it’s unfortunate that this is the thing that he’s remembered for in Strikers because unfortunately he didn’t have much of an arc in this game.
@@ThoughtBubbleYT But him realizing his priorites got messed up IS a big deal to him and it's given the proper time it deserves. And while he does'nt have an arc to himself in Strikers, he DOES show how much he's grown since the first game much like Morgana who also does'nt have his own arc in Strikers. Infact his relationship with Morgana is the biggest thing that's grown, they still make light jabs at each other but they see where the line is and own up if they accidently cross it and there's alot more times where their completely chill with each other and enjoy each other's company.
@@Cloud-dt6xb I mean, I think that we can safely agree to disagree on this, which is totally alright! I'm glad that you have really enjoyed how is arc in the game was handled, because he is a great character with a lot going for him, it's just not my personal favorite execution and I wish I had gotten a bit more latch onto is all.
Ryuji deserve p6
i don't care what anyone says i think Makoto dunks way too much on Ryuji and it's pretty indulgent, i 100% hated the showtime attack in royal where Ryuji is treated like a complete joke giving Makoto a drink which she crashes in front of him and he bows down in front of her i mean come on ... someone really had a go at him and it always bothered me it felt mean spirited and it seems like it's become a trend to take shots at Ryuji which 100% diminishes his character which is a very loveable character, i feel he is being dragged trough the mud in order to prop up Makoto and i don't dislike Makoto but i don't think her whole personality should be that she's smart and she picks on Ryuji because they need to show that she's also strong physically and the only way to do that is to pick on Ryuji because he's supposed to be the strong one
17:18
Relatability in terms of social life is corny as shit
He's the first one I bench. Not a fan of him but I like him better than Goro. lol
It's ok, Ann is the one i don't like. If she got written out of the story after the 2nd palace, nothing would change.
Ryuji is one of my favorites. All the bro characters are.
The only thing i didn't like about about his character is that he was bragging about the Phantom Thieves. Like, i get it, he's a kid on top of the world but he should know better after dealing with Kamoshida.
Honestly i like him alot more than Joker and Yuske and most of the other cast.
Annoying mascot
Laughing stock
Stupid
Gay art-person (although he's good)
Good grader
Weaboo
Fuсking nothingness
Admiration wanting edgelord
I can't even think of characteristic for Sumire besides the fact that Maruki brainwashed her
If characters in your work can be described in one characteristic and that characteristic is the one that defines their character, then these characters are not good and if this is your peak characters then I don't know if you ever consumed any other media besides persona
God how much he was robbed of a arc in strikers
At least haru got a actual arc
The boy needs more!
Ryuji is annoying it has to be said compared to youske. Ryujis ark was meh, my favourite characters arc were futaba, makoto, the female teacher, and the doctor there arcs were powerful.
Npc behavior