Should this Exterior Outlet be Horizontal?
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
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Synopsis:
OK, so there’s really no magic to horizontal or vertical receptacles; it’s just about preference. That said, WHOSE preference is it? DIYers have it easy in this category, but pros need to be mindful of homeowner or general contractor plans in order to make an educated choice that will match the rest of the aesthetic in a space.
Let us know in the comments if you knew about the In-Use cover knockout! We see a lot of those installed correctly…
Laced within the technical instruction are recommendations and points of professionalism employed daily by Jefferson Electric masters, journeymen, & apprentices.
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Outline:
0:00 - Introduction
0:33 - Wiring Path
1:17 - Determining Box Location
2:20 - Materials
3:34 - Final Box Location Considerations
5:14 - Exterior Cuts
6:56 - Mounting the Box
7:48 - Wiring the Receptacle
9:55 - Installing the “While-In-Use” Cover
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I definitely would have done this differently. Not that you didn't do fine work. Considering the vast number of open spaces in the breaker panel, I would have run a dedicated circuit for that outside outlet (my preference if possible). Quite often outside outlets get utilized for high current yard/power tool devices. Having devices plugged in to outlets upstream could cause nuisance trips when you want to use those high current outdoor tools, not to mention all the potential failure points in that chain (wire-nuts and the like). Having a dedicated circuit would also facilitate having the GFI outlet (with indicator light) in the outdoor box (another preference). I like the shortest walk to fix a fault. Older high current tools can occasionally cause nuisance trips in GFI outlets. I wouldn't want to have to trapes all the way back into the garage to reset the GFI.
Not sure why you would choose to put your box out in the middle of the stud pocket like that when you could have attached a rigid steel box to the stud. All the stress of pushing and pulling on the outlet from inserting and removing plugs is transferred directly to the cement siding and insul-board with no support behind it to keep it from flexing. That could potentially lead to stress cracking of the cement siding. Due to those same stresses I don't think I could trust those plastic spin-out anchor tabs on that remodel box either. Maybe for switches, but not for outlets. Does anyone make that design with steel anchor tabs?
I would have run a dedicated circuit (GFCI outlet)with a wall switch inside to easily turn off the outlet so that it was only energized when I was using it and so none can steal power. The GFCI indicator light like you mentioned would tell me it was energized. Yes you could just use the breaker to control the outlet but i like a switch instead so there is no need to throw the breaker.
Man you took my words right outta my mouth lol! I agree with you 💯 %
I agreed 100%. The box that he's putting in is a re-model box, the name said it all. Why not mount the box to the structure? Hmmmm
With easy access why use an old work box. Why not use a standard 1G nail on box? Horizontal outlets get more force on them when an extension cord gets pulled sideways. It will pull a plastic old work box through the siding. Metal old work with side tabs not so much..
Thank you for the input team! Your contributions, perspectives and advice are very valuable to me and I read many and contemplate most. It's fascinating to me :-)
I'm Daria, I'm sorry to leave a message below your channel, but it has been five months since I sent you the product, and you have not responded to my email, may I ask if I have suffered fraud?
Fantastic video! Crazy how far “learning” has came… I use to be one of the type of people who was against watching videos/tutorials online of how to do something but I am the first person now to UA-cam something if I don’t know it! Another great video brother! Keep em coming 😎
Nice and easy install ... Good job Joel ... Thx
Thts hacky for me but im in the snow belt so the smaller holes in shell the better.(all though you did it very well and professional looking)an outdoor box romex connecter on the inside duct seal and some deck screws thru the back of the box and some silicone caulking for the hole to seal around the romex
Great Video. Thank you for sharing
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I am OCD about screwing in unused screw terminals. I hate pulling out someone's work and there are lose screws just rattling in it... I always tightenall my screws that are not in use. I just feel it makes a cleaner install.
4:50 Easier life hack for finding studs, would be use a scrap piece of 12AWG with bend 90 degrees at 3.5" then insert and feel around. With insulation you can use the bit method or just straighten out the wire and probe around or upsize the wire a bit as well. 👍🤠
You take pride in what you do!
Hardie side is not supposed to have devices mounted this was, supposed to have flashing, and mounted on a separate plate. Box should have already been in place, then siding is cut, around, and flashing applied It's Fiber Cement, and not following Hardi rules doesn't help the 30 year 15 year paint finish warranty. FOLLOW the RULES...you left the cut edges unpainted, any cut edges on hardie Fiber cement needs to be painted, Hardie supplies the paint to match....
You make some good points but overall it's fine at least until the seal on the back of the box fails
@digi3218 that's exactly what I thought. That back seal just made it seal on the overcurrent. Hardie is the best siding...did my house in it. Has to be installed by Hardie qualified guys..it does matter..
Over cut,not current
I was just thinking "what about when the siding gets replaced..."
this may work with this siding, but I would caulk top edge. On my siding you have problems with door hitting overhang of siding above and outlet would be quite tilted so i put in a weather tight box and have it stick out enough to clear siding and have nice level box that i can open cover all the way. the plastic boxes get loose from prying of cords on cover plate.
Very Nice!!
thanks I have an outdoor outlet (load side of a GFCI upstream) whose box is broken. Been looking for what to fix it with and will upgrade the receptacle with the Red Dot and WR. Installed it about 15 years ago
Those are the absolute worse outdoor electrical box you could have installed. They will leak. They look ugly. And they’re not even surface mount. If it was you could at least have that going for it; not penetrating causing leaks.
No. Get a recessed in use outlet box with a mounting plate that matches the color of the house. Some come with seals or get a putty pad and stick that to the back inside to completely seal it. Then some tape like zips sealing tape.
And it’s nice to put 20amp outside commercial quality WR TR outlet and have the breaker be AFCI and GFCI. Much easier to go to a breaker and reset when you have a bunch of outlets in closed boxes around the outside. Or when it’s freezing out. Or raining. Or how most homeowners won’t know where all their outside outlets are and wondering why this one odd indoor one just keeps tripping. And how the gfci breaker will be inside and won’t ruin because water won’t be leaking into the panel. Well maybe if you do it.
Or like this horror show where you have a single inside electrical outlet being the gfci fault location and not the outside. So when it trips and it will trip because of your poor poor boring non creative choice of an outlet, it will leak. And when it does nobody will know where to look to make it work.
Breaker is on. Outlets don’t have a gfci trip button. Guess that dumb electrician wired them wrong.
Seriously the worst video so far. Someone needs to make a whole channel after every video you do telling people that they shouldn’t do all that. Just confirm for people that it’s a satirical UA-cam channel and now you’ll show them the right and legal way to do something. Wouldn’t have the heart to tell people you’re serious.
www.hubbell.com/taymac/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/Outdoor/Boxes-Covers-Plates/1-Gang-6-in-1-Weatherproof-In-Use-Cover-HorizontalVertical-Nonmetallic-White/p/2294588
Thanks for including a link, @jspafford. We'll look into these!
Your input also sounds really well-educated. How long have you been in the trade, and in what region?
Did you do anything special to get that link to post? When I try to post links, the post gets shadowbanned.
10:38 I don't believe it's required by code but it is certainly good practice to put the neutral up when mounting sideways. although not really a big issue in this situation as the box will prevent pretty much everything from getting in there including those giant pressure washer GFCI plugs. And I am of the camp that the unused screws should be screwed in, it's sort of like asking for something to poke them.
Where I’m at, inspectors want our outdoor in-use boxes to be metal. No more plastic.
Anyone else encounter that?
No
Not but they don't like plastic old work boxes. If the extension cord plugged in gets pulled, the box will come right out of the siding.
@@harveypaxton1232 right
A lot of times a box like Joel used is the best option.
But in this situation where u have access to the bay from the other side of the wall, a box screwed or nailed to the stud would be sturdier.
Nothing in the NEC requires that. Unless there is local amendment to the NEC, the inspectors can't just require something because they prefer it.
What I know is if the box has to be flush mount then u use metal, but if it has to be reccesed then you can use plastic.
Us old timers & Greenlee company called that long bit a door bell bit. Greenlee made them in 12 & 18" lengths and a few diameters. A few years ago at an IAEI class they told us we have to use type UF cable to enter any exterior box due to type NM-B cable is not rated for damp or wet locations. If pkssible I prefer to use a sturdy metal wall case and mount it on side if existing stud & use two screws to secure side & a maduson bar on other side. ( vertical mounted box ).
I've broken the little plastic wings on retrofit boxes trying to install them in material that's too thick. 7:35 looked kinda sketchy.
The problem I have with them is that the screw heads are pretty crappy, and using a #2 Phillips often wrecks the heads. The heads are not made to take a #1 Square drive.
Since he access to the interior wall cavity I would have either run caulk or adhesive around the box to firm it up or done it on the outside as I was installing it. I would want the box as firm as possible.
Very nice vid. I would add another layer of clear or colour match sealant around the perimeter gasket. Those neoprene gaskets tend to get much in two years. Also, I only use federal spec WR plugs for outside. They have nickel plated contacts for extreme duty.
It did look like a lower-end receptacle.
Of course, I have a keen eye!
@@jamesreizner2673 I would disagree, based on the color of the back housing and the pattern on the mounting tabs, it looks to be Bryant RR15SWWRTR, which costs on average $4. I cant speak to the quality, having never used the model of receptacle before, but being owned by Hubbell I would definitely expect higher than some cheaper Leviton model
Another great video. Learning lots for my remodel. Seems like a surface mounted box would be a lot easier. Is that a code or aesthetic decision?
Aesthetic. Let us know if you'd like any feedback on your remodel: electric-pro-academy.square.site/!
The box just needs to be parallel with it's surroundings. So if it looks level, it is level. You make it real level and the siding is off, your box will look bad and like you screwed up.
Nice. One thought that came to mind is that based on the green coloring of the sheathing, I'm assuming that it's Zip R. Having watched one too many building channels, I would take some Zip Liquid Flash and put a nice bead against the sheathing where you're installing that box, then set the box into the liquid flash and tighten it up, that way the WRB remains intact. Would probably seal up the knockouts on the box as well (from the outside of course, not the inside).
It's just normal Zip sheathing. Regardless, it would work with a liquid flash, even third party ones. You want to be careful flashing something like that rather than just letting it drain in back, and sealing the penetration. Drainage is the better option most of the time in my opinion: if you screw up, you don't create a pocket of manky water; and you have much less to screw up.
Really... if possible the penetration should have been completed before the siding went on.
Here either a mounting block which could have flush or surface mounted metal box or surface metal direct onto siding we never penetrate the siding direct with a box, masonry brick/veneer is an exception but then many timers a surface mounted metal box.
Even though I’ve done them, the box sticking 3-4 inches off the wall in open space feels like an abomination waiting to attack someone’s leg or get ripped off by someone carrying a ladder. Have you used the Arlington or Hubbell recessed boxes before for these applications? Curious what you think.
The box is inside the stud cavity on the inside and doesn't extend beyond the studs. Does that seem risky? Do you have a part number for what you're recommending from Hubbell or Arlington?
@@ElectricProAcademy Hubbell is under their TayMac label, one model is MR420CG. Arlington has a variety too, DBHR131C is one, and these are designed to be true vertical on lap siding.
@@ElectricProAcademy At least the Arlington is around 5 inches deep, so easy in 2x6 cavity, thick exterior wall, or crawl space. I haven’t tried it with a 2x4 space behind, so if the exterior wall is thin it might not fit. However, in other situations I have used a piece of scrap plywood to pull a box out that was otherwise too big behind to fit. I expect that would go fine here.
@@RJ-ej1nr I had no problem installing the Arlington in a 2by4 wall.
@@darienredsox1878 Good to hear, thanks for the info!
Check out Arlington Inbox recessed box for a low profile outdoor receptacle installation It doesn't stand proud of the siding.
That box and cover sticking out of the side of the garage like that is quite the eyesore. I would have caulked the top and sides of that box, a neoprene seal will deteriorate quickly. I also would have fastened down that wire on the interior side as well.
I’m assuming you’re going to do it, but when you make a how to video you should really show it.
Since you installed this with an old work box, how does this handle any water making its way down the side of the house wrap between the siding and the sheathing? It's not guaranteed but some water does find it's way behind most vinyl siding hence the need for house wrap. I ask because I've long contemplated adding exterior outlets to my home and while the gasket should prevent water intrusion from the exterior, I worry about any from behind.
Anything could happen. GFCI protection and WR receptacle help if there does happen to be any water intrusion. If you are really concerned you could use an outside box mounted to the siding and a weatherproof Romex connector through the wall. Many ways of doing this.
@@jamesreizner2673 Gotcha. Also just found the QuickFlash product as well for those who remove some siding to do the job.
In my 55 years of doing Residential Electrical Wiring as a licensed Journeyman Electrician , I have never stripped or removed the outer sheathing of NM-B Romex Or UF cable BEFORE inserting the cable into a electrical box regardless of the type of box being used whether for a Duplex Receptacle or a Switch or for a Ceiling Light /Fan fixture.
I do it all the time. LOL
@@whiggins101 me too, I find it easier than struggling with the box in the way
When I started I was taught to pull the cable into the box, open it with a cable ripper, snip the sheath and pull off the paper. I have since found it faster and neater to use nm cable cutters and push in wires plus min sheath when that’s possible.
As a DIYer, I agree with you when it comes to wiring NM-B in plastic boxes with clamps or using plastic clamps in metal boxes. If I strip before insertion, then the sheathing always gets caught up in those plastic clamps.
But if it's a box with metal clamps or no clamps at all, like most 1 gang new work plastic boxes, then it really doesn't matter when I strip the sheathing since it won't get stuck
Doing it before hand seems to get you the exact length vs trying to do it in the box which can leave more insulation to catch fire
Another good method use a 4sqaure box go to the stud and use the approriate mud ring depth. Them carlon are ok but them tabs are crap if your gonna use a remodel box go for grey cut ins with the metal tabs much better and dont break them carlon suck.
I prefer 1900 steel boxes with plaster rings in general it lowers the risk of over stuffing and gives one more room for homeowners use of large dimmers and wireless control devices.
Great input, @shanebibby6006. We call the metal-tabbed gray boxes "Slater boxes" which is what I was referring to at 7:09 as my preference too! The metal box option would also be hearty.
@@ElectricProAcademy And while you're at it, wire the whole structure with MC or better yet 1/2" conduit. (just kidding (or am I?))
Doesn't the latest code require a GFCI breaker instead of a GFCI receptacle?
Joel, how to you keep from cutting the insulated wires when you use the utility knife to strip the outer jacket of the romex? Thanks for all the great videos.
If you stay towards the middle of the wire you’re following the ground wire, but it doesn’t take a plunge cut only a lite score to get the jacket to cut
Watch him do it again. He puts the blade of the utility knife in the center of the jacket where the bare ground wire is, and he does not go very deep with the blade. Pretty easy to do. Then he cuts the jacket off by pushing the blade away from the insulated wires. Just about every electrician I know does it exactly this way.
@@jamesreizner2673 Thanks James. I'm just a homeowner/handyman so I am not as skilled as a pro, but I will give it a try on some scrap romex. I use the stripper tools which are fine, but this is much quicker. Thanks.
@@markg6032 Like the other fellas said, you can just score it. You don't even need to cut all the way through the jacket - once it's scored it'll peel off like a banana peel.
Stop...you are totally wrong here. Dont damage a house. Just use a tiny hole for 12 gauge cable and install outdoor metal box, use silicon just for 1 hole. You screwed here.
You made a HUGE HOLE for water and insects, thanks
*a garage
With the siding being thicker at the bottom than at the top, mounting it this way causes the face of the box
eceptacle to be not plumb, especially if it was mounted vertically.. Isn't that aesthetically unpleasing?
I would prefer using a weatherproof box, cutting just the siding and mounting the box to the sheathing OR mounting a box to a stud.
I think the WR outlets are required by code also instead of just being a good idea for longevity.
If that's HARDIE siding? WR is required 2023..for outdoor
AV installers use piano wire for exploratory hole drilling. No drill bits needed !
Doesn't that need the "GFCI protected" sticker on the outlet?
ouch, cement board and very old plaster are totally killer on oscillating saw blades. to much friction and heat build up in their high speed oscillations.
surprised you managed to do that with "one blade", as it likely had no teeth after 5 seconds. lol
👍
Doesn’t the outlet need to be gfci outside?
No, in this case the outlet is already downstream from a GFCI on the load side. If the very first outlet in your circuit is a GFCI and the other outlets downstream are connected via the "load" side of the GFCI, the entire circuit is GFCI protected. He covers that towards the beginning.
@@JohnnySnaps While true it is protected from inside I still would have put a GFCI with indicator light outside to make it easier to reset and to know if the circuit was energized.
@@jaycahow4667 100% agree on this point.
@@JohnnySnaps are most jurisdictions like this? Because every house here in nj has a gfci outside for all outlets
@@leaf4224 I'm not an electrician, so I definitely cant speak to any local codes. All I'm saying is that the setup Joel used is in fact GFCI protected and the outside socket is WR. As mentioned above, should the indoor GFCI trip due to some sort of water intrusion or corrosion on the exterior socket, you would have to reset from the GFCI outlet located inside. Me personally, I would have used a GFCI fed via a home run. At the end of the day, it's more about reset convenience to me.
why dont you install a gfci outlet
In wet areas I like to use antiox on my conductors, this will reduce any oxidation from the moisture in the air.
WR/TR red dot not the scope 😅
Why such a big panel for a garage this size? is someone planning to put an addition on it in the future?
$40 more for a much bigger panel. No regrets at a later date if the homeowner adds shop equipment + EVs + pool equipment.
Arlington in box is the way to do
A lot of folks recommending that thanks, we'll give it a look!
The flimsy blue box reminds me of some crap that K Mart would scream out on store PA " Attention K Mart shopers we have a blue light special in the hardware department. 5 flimsy Blue plastic electrical boxes for only a $1. Somebody back in the 1970's made gray plastic what supply house called builders specials that were far worst then the blue light specials. threaded 6/32 hole would strip anytime devices screw was just tightened very little over snug fit.
Isn’t it better practice to keep neutral side up when installing receptacles horizontal?
I think maybe we are teaching him something ;-)
@@jamesreizner2673 I’m sure the answer will be that it doesn’t matter either way because the plug is protected by the cover so nothing metal will ever land on the hot blade but I just like to be consistent all the time and do things the same way.
Sounds like a good practice! No code on the topic that I'm aware of, but more power to you for having a system. I can sometimes be too hasty on solo installs like this.
You changed your stripers
Still not KNIPEX.....there is a difference
Any thoughts on the NM cable run to a device in a wet location? NM is not allowed in wet locations.
The NM is not in a wet location, the box is.
8:00 I did not see any indication that the wire was stapled to the stud as required by code.
Totally correct! Apologies for not showing it in this vid.
Why not use a GFCI breaker? I always get annoyed by using a gfci outlet and then chaining othr outlets from it. Can be annoying to locate if you dont know where its at to reset it. I also trust a breaker more than an outlet.
True! Often GFCIs in storage spaces will get covered up and homeowners struggle to figure out what's going on.
Why not rotozip it ? Instead of destroying blade?
I find it hard to make a straight line with a Rotozip. Maybe you have a better technique. And I rarely see electricians with Rotozips - nice tool though.
@@jamesreizner2673 yeah I understand that aspect but when it's being covered up by a weather proof box so 🤷.. iv been told never to use a multi tool and also the opposite but it's whatever gets the job done fastest I guess 😉
Don't own one actually, but that would be a great solution! 😅
Sorry Joel. And like a lot of hate here today. This isn't meant to add to it. I genuinely want to know, if you have time to respond, I thought there was a code related to back to back boxes in the same bay. Can you clarify when it applies. I've been running wires to the next bay to stay compliant but looks like i may have misunderstood that code?
Not totally tracking, are you referring to the electrical box and the cover?
@ElectricProAcademy I have to look it up but I think there is code against installing two boxes facing opposite ways (back to back) in the same stud bay. It runs the fire rating of the wall or something? If you have 2 boxes in the same stud bay, they need to be 24" apart or in separate bays? I'll see if I can find it and post it here. Would like your interpretation on it
Yes, please hunt it down and share! Nothing comes to mind for me
No, hood is in the correct position to keep most water out in the horizontal position.
20 amp circuit 15 amp outlet????
yep, completely fine
Yup you can't plug in a 20 Amp device to it without modification
@@feelingtardy While true, if you have the 20 amp breaker and correct wiring in place for a few cents more put in a 20 amp outlet to let you run 20 amp devices outside.
NM in a wet location? An ongoing debate that needs to be clarified. I see a couple of jurisdictions around me using UF to these locations to keep the inspector happy..
Every inch of the NM cable is in a dry location.
This isn’t meant offensively but, every time I see American electrical I’m shocked how 20 years behind the rest of the world it is… I got sent for a live testing thermography course about 7 years ago to Pittsburg, the test was to American regs and was given the regs to look though it was like a booklet… we rip out and replace stuff as it’s classed as dangerous that’s still installed in the states. Most Middle East country’s adopted uk regulations in there building booms to be electrically safe.
It's not offensive. It's wrong.
@jovetj please enlighten me on what's wrong? I'm interested to learn if there's something I've missed
@@robertmather7696 American "electrical" is not "20 years behind the rest of the world" ...
You write like it's some kind of fashion trend.
@@jovetj It kinda is. Have you looked into the safety features built into UK receptacles, just for one example?
@@Bapuji42 No, it isn't true at all.
I am familiar with UK receptacles, and plugs as well. Are _you_ familiar with the safety features of US receptacles? Isn't a lower voltage safer? Are safety features used on 230V receptacles and plugs really as critical for 120V?
I am regularly amazed at all this "Europe does it better" crap all the while being accused, as an American, of demanding the world change to suit American tastes. I couldn't care less what Europe does. North America is not Europe. Just because something works well in Europe does not mean it will work well in North America, and vice-versa.
More plastic... Please make it stop. Is there a particular reason we've gone from quality steel to plastic rubbish ? It's junk ! No offense, but that's what it is. JUNK !