It never fails to amaze me how caught up people can get over "the right way to write" while others publishing what could be called "flaming hot piles of garbage". Write period. If advice works for you, good. If it doesnt, also good. If a plot structure works, good. If it doesnt, also good. My plot structures vary according to story. Sometimes I even "wing it" in the initial stages then use structure to carve a path when Im stuck. If the end result is a great story that you wanted to tell, congratulations. Its not that serious. The whole point of creativity is freedom of expression. Sometimes we mistake guidelines for hard and fast rules because as humans we need to put things in a box to make sense of it and so we're comfortable. Take the island breath and use the Hero's Journey :P
Right. Everyone is just cooking with water. There is a reason why the only writing advice the true literature giants have is "Read a lot. Write a lot." Because they don't have a secret recipe either. They just put in the work to find out what works for them. Obviously AuthorTubers want you to think that they know how it's done right because they have some vague projects or because they self-published a Literotica once. Maybe their advice works for some. But all I know is, that writing has become a much more enjoyable experience for me ever since I decided to tune out the noise of a dozen AuthorTubers.
Advice is to give you a framework you can work within. A point of reference. Instead of looking at The Hero's Journey as a strict ruleset with rigid paramaters, look at it like a big square, like a football field you can work within. SOme people stay inside the 16 meter square. Some on one half of the pitch and someone likes the circle in the middle. Writing Academia is much the same way. You have methodology with 2 main ones: Qualitative and Quantitative. Below those are a myriad of submethods. When I wrote my Bachelor Paper in Criminology I was using Qualitative Method and settled on doing a "Case Study" but ended up borrowing a lot of methodology from another submethod, namely "Literary review" In the same way you can use the "3 Act Structure" as a base and then borrow elements from The Hero's Journey to supplement it that works for your novel, but without learning the fundamentals of each type, you might not understand how to mix and match to fit your personal style. Another way to look at it is that writing a book is like a triathlon. To be able to do one you need to learn how to run, bicycle and swim, each of them representing a different story method.
Advice on how to take writing advice. Next video: Suggestions on how to take advice on writing advice. Jokes aside, i appreciate this. I didn't think about that call out about word count having that effect on some writers. I am that "some writers." I will try to take this into account this month. [Edited typos]
What I do for my writing is I don't have a story structure, instead I have a list of questions. Obviously there is a vague plotline, but my main aim is to try and answer those questions. Originally I wasn't sure about this since I haven't heard of anyone doing it, but it has started working well for me and I thought I'd share.
I have a degree in creative writing and every class beat me over the head with the hero's journey and three act plot structure. I found most of my stories' plot and conflict always fit better with the four act structure as my storytelling was heavily influenced by Jdramas and Ghibli movies (Whisper of the Heart is literally the reason I went to school for writing, but that's a story for another time) and I hated that I had to always fight back on forcing my stories into structures that just don't work for me.
That's unfortunate that they were so prescriptive about structure. While I like them and think they have value, they shouldn't be forced. Funnily enough, I've always viewed the Hero's Journey as 4 act since I think it's traditional "2nd Act" has a pretty convenient break at the midpoint. Act I: Regular World -> First Threshold -> Act II: Road of Trials -> Midpoint Climax -> Act III: Journey Back -> Return Threshold -> Act IV: Climax/Denouement
@@AroundTheCampfire Love reading the comments and finding gems like this. I've got a story with a midpoint climax followed by a literal (and figurative) journey back, but was unwittingly fixated on the three act structure, wracking my brains about whether I'd placed the midpoint climax wrong. I'll be looking closer at four act structures now😁
Yes it does and it'es impotant to now all the skills you can so then you can go onto creating something new/unqiue. And if you think your a good writer still watch these video you might learn something or most definatly get a new perspective. Like I don't use the heroes jorney becuase I PERSONALLY don't like it becuase it is in almost everything which it is becuase it works so well and every writer can use it. I don't want that hollywood vibe and the sad moments inherant to it and it did noty fit the book I was writing at all. So instead I use the video game narritve where it is a straight climb that gets harder and harder untill a big finale. I do other things like I made my own formate to make my books easy to read. My dialogue, discription, world building, skills are really good... however My editing skills are my main weakness also thanks for you advice thety are really good.
I manage a niche writing advice group, and on there we use what I have dubbed "The Golden Rule of Mezz" (In the hopes that my members might repeat it under the same name) which is: Rules are made to be understood, so we know how and when it's good to break them. I think the word "Rules" could be effectively swapped out for advice and it can be just as true. If we understand the advice, where it's coming from, why it's been given, etc., we can understand if that advice is worth listening to or not.
Remember that everything that has been done, hasn't been seen. There are new people born every day and they don't know star wars, lord of the rings, or batman, so the story you write could be their baseline for the tropes, genre, characters, etc that they learn and love. Ex. I was not a harry potter kid, I was a percy jackson kid. Everyone else sees percy jackson as one of those post harry potter ya/middle grade books, but I see it the other way around that percy jackson is the classic and harry potter is the follow up (because that's the order I knew them).
Hard agree. It's impossible to avoid being like something else, so there's no reason to fear. You'll always bring your own perspective and style, even if you're writing an "archetypal" story.
I think some writing is objectively better than other writing, and the mistake some beginners make is in thinking that everything is subjective, so advice doesn't matter. But not everything in art is completely subjective. A screenplay written by a beginner that reads like a hot pile of trash is going to be objectively and provably worse than a screenplay written by a talented pro with ten years' of writing under their belt. Sometimes you can point to a scene that lacks any conflict and relies on expository dialogue and objectively prove that it's worse than a scene with ample conflict and more savvily written dialogue. That's how come there are bad movies that are accepted as bad, and great movies that are known to be great, even if there are a few outlier opinions scattered around both. No piece of advice will apply across every piece of writing and make every story objectively better. But that doesn't mean that no advice will ever apply, or that a lot of advice won't apply most of the time -- a lot of it is hard-won wisdom, and it takes a lot of arrogance to outright reject formulas that have worked for thousands of years without ever trying one. Then there are ways to subvert existing formulas. But the author that does this first has to have a deep understanding of how the formula works, and which parts they are changing, and why. And a story that subverts a well-worn formula arguably still relies on it, to an extent. Great channel!
I'm glad I started using the Story Circle last year. It really help me structure the plot of my first novel and guided it forward into a better story. In my current rewriting I realize I'm already rougly writing outside the defined story beats but that's ok. I can safely say it already helped me become a better writer and create a better understanding of story structures. In my opinion it is very important as a beginner to learn and understand the rules so you can break them properly.
Exactly! I use the Hero's Journey, but I don't always follow the steps exactly. Sometimes they're just a nice thing to aim for to give me some direction. Not to mention that having an understanding those types of structures gives you the power to subvert them!
I wrote a couple of unfinished comics and 2 short stories. When I learnt about the hero's journey I really liked it. I was amazed at the books and movies that have used it well. Now, of course when I read and detect it, it is predictable, and thus, a bit less enjoying. Having a structure that can work well is great.
I've been into creative writing for 13 years now and the only writing advice that ever really helped me was "Ignore all writing advice. Only you can find out what works for you." As soon as I tuned out all that noiseand began experimenting on my own, things just started to click. I mean, no offense Campfire-people, but of course AuthorTubers are going to tell us that their advice really works, so that we watch more of their videos.
No offence taken whatsoever! Experimentation in a vaccum is going to work for some people, and that's completely fine. If you enjoy writing and trying things out on your own, then more power to you. Although, I would disagree with the idea that stategy would work best for everybody. Personally, it way easier for me to try out things when I have a reference point. There's so many things I would've never considered if someone hadn't told me "Hey, look how cool this is!" When I can tell there is something wrong in my work that I can't quite figure out, having a frame of reference to look at the problem is helpful.
Happy first day of NaNoWriMo everybody!
WHY WOULD U REMIND ME OF THIS
OH YEAH
I FORGOT ABOUT THAT
thanks.
@@billyalarie929 I DID NOT MEAN TO CAUSE ALARM. BUT TIME TO GIDDYUP PARTNER
It never fails to amaze me how caught up people can get over "the right way to write" while others publishing what could be called "flaming hot piles of garbage". Write period.
If advice works for you, good. If it doesnt, also good. If a plot structure works, good. If it doesnt, also good.
My plot structures vary according to story. Sometimes I even "wing it" in the initial stages then use structure to carve a path when Im stuck.
If the end result is a great story that you wanted to tell, congratulations. Its not that serious. The whole point of creativity is freedom of expression.
Sometimes we mistake guidelines for hard and fast rules because as humans we need to put things in a box to make sense of it and so we're comfortable.
Take the island breath and use the Hero's Journey :P
Right. Everyone is just cooking with water. There is a reason why the only writing advice the true literature giants have is "Read a lot. Write a lot." Because they don't have a secret recipe either. They just put in the work to find out what works for them. Obviously AuthorTubers want you to think that they know how it's done right because they have some vague projects or because they self-published a Literotica once. Maybe their advice works for some. But all I know is, that writing has become a much more enjoyable experience for me ever since I decided to tune out the noise of a dozen AuthorTubers.
You basically said everything I wanted to in a 10th of the words. Maybe you should be the one making videos instead of me 😂
😂😂
Delightfully devil's advocate, reminding people that context matters.
Advice is to give you a framework you can work within. A point of reference. Instead of looking at The Hero's Journey as a strict ruleset with rigid paramaters, look at it like a big square, like a football field you can work within. SOme people stay inside the 16 meter square. Some on one half of the pitch and someone likes the circle in the middle.
Writing Academia is much the same way. You have methodology with 2 main ones: Qualitative and Quantitative. Below those are a myriad of submethods. When I wrote my Bachelor Paper in Criminology I was using Qualitative Method and settled on doing a "Case Study" but ended up borrowing a lot of methodology from another submethod, namely "Literary review"
In the same way you can use the "3 Act Structure" as a base and then borrow elements from The Hero's Journey to supplement it that works for your novel, but without learning the fundamentals of each type, you might not understand how to mix and match to fit your personal style.
Another way to look at it is that writing a book is like a triathlon. To be able to do one you need to learn how to run, bicycle and swim, each of them representing a different story method.
I dislike the hero’s journey. I only enjoy stories like Rick and Morty, which use the Story Circle, which is TOTALLY not based on the hero’s journey.
Have you considered the story octogon? It's like the story circle but with sharp edges. Also TOTALLY not based on the Hero's Journey
Advice on how to take writing advice.
Next video: Suggestions on how to take advice on writing advice.
Jokes aside, i appreciate this. I didn't think about that call out about word count having that effect on some writers. I am that "some writers." I will try to take this into account this month.
[Edited typos]
How to take advice on taking advice on taking advice on taking advice on taki
What I do for my writing is I don't have a story structure, instead I have a list of questions. Obviously there is a vague plotline, but my main aim is to try and answer those questions. Originally I wasn't sure about this since I haven't heard of anyone doing it, but it has started working well for me and I thought I'd share.
I have a degree in creative writing and every class beat me over the head with the hero's journey and three act plot structure. I found most of my stories' plot and conflict always fit better with the four act structure as my storytelling was heavily influenced by Jdramas and Ghibli movies (Whisper of the Heart is literally the reason I went to school for writing, but that's a story for another time) and I hated that I had to always fight back on forcing my stories into structures that just don't work for me.
That's unfortunate that they were so prescriptive about structure. While I like them and think they have value, they shouldn't be forced. Funnily enough, I've always viewed the Hero's Journey as 4 act since I think it's traditional "2nd Act" has a pretty convenient break at the midpoint. Act I: Regular World -> First Threshold -> Act II: Road of Trials -> Midpoint Climax -> Act III: Journey Back -> Return Threshold -> Act IV: Climax/Denouement
@@AroundTheCampfire Love reading the comments and finding gems like this. I've got a story with a midpoint climax followed by a literal (and figurative) journey back, but was unwittingly fixated on the three act structure, wracking my brains about whether I'd placed the midpoint climax wrong.
I'll be looking closer at four act structures now😁
More of a beginning, middle and end guy myself.
To me, everything is prologue and not-prologue. Everything else is hollywood nonsense
Yes it does and it'es impotant to now all the skills you can so then you can go onto creating something new/unqiue. And if you think your a good writer still watch these video you might learn something or most definatly get a new perspective. Like I don't use the heroes jorney becuase I PERSONALLY don't like it becuase it is in almost everything which it is becuase it works so well and every writer can use it. I don't want that hollywood vibe and the sad moments inherant to it and it did noty fit the book I was writing at all. So instead I use the video game narritve where it is a straight climb that gets harder and harder untill a big finale. I do other things like I made my own formate to make my books easy to read. My dialogue, discription, world building, skills are really good... however My editing skills are my main weakness also thanks for you advice thety are really good.
You hit the nail on the head. It's always helpful to learn and try more things. Thanks for the kind words! 😊
I manage a niche writing advice group, and on there we use what I have dubbed "The Golden Rule of Mezz" (In the hopes that my members might repeat it under the same name) which is:
Rules are made to be understood, so we know how and when it's good to break them.
I think the word "Rules" could be effectively swapped out for advice and it can be just as true. If we understand the advice, where it's coming from, why it's been given, etc., we can understand if that advice is worth listening to or not.
Exactly! Language is about communicating effectively. If you break the "rules" but still get what you wanted across, then you've succeeded.
Remember that everything that has been done, hasn't been seen. There are new people born every day and they don't know star wars, lord of the rings, or batman, so the story you write could be their baseline for the tropes, genre, characters, etc that they learn and love.
Ex. I was not a harry potter kid, I was a percy jackson kid. Everyone else sees percy jackson as one of those post harry potter ya/middle grade books, but I see it the other way around that percy jackson is the classic and harry potter is the follow up (because that's the order I knew them).
Hard agree. It's impossible to avoid being like something else, so there's no reason to fear. You'll always bring your own perspective and style, even if you're writing an "archetypal" story.
Thank you for a practical, pragmatic video.
All the best!
I think some writing is objectively better than other writing, and the mistake some beginners make is in thinking that everything is subjective, so advice doesn't matter. But not everything in art is completely subjective. A screenplay written by a beginner that reads like a hot pile of trash is going to be objectively and provably worse than a screenplay written by a talented pro with ten years' of writing under their belt. Sometimes you can point to a scene that lacks any conflict and relies on expository dialogue and objectively prove that it's worse than a scene with ample conflict and more savvily written dialogue. That's how come there are bad movies that are accepted as bad, and great movies that are known to be great, even if there are a few outlier opinions scattered around both.
No piece of advice will apply across every piece of writing and make every story objectively better. But that doesn't mean that no advice will ever apply, or that a lot of advice won't apply most of the time -- a lot of it is hard-won wisdom, and it takes a lot of arrogance to outright reject formulas that have worked for thousands of years without ever trying one. Then there are ways to subvert existing formulas. But the author that does this first has to have a deep understanding of how the formula works, and which parts they are changing, and why. And a story that subverts a well-worn formula arguably still relies on it, to an extent. Great channel!
I'm glad I started using the Story Circle last year. It really help me structure the plot of my first novel and guided it forward into a better story. In my current rewriting I realize I'm already rougly writing outside the defined story beats but that's ok. I can safely say it already helped me become a better writer and create a better understanding of story structures. In my opinion it is very important as a beginner to learn and understand the rules so you can break them properly.
Exactly! I use the Hero's Journey, but I don't always follow the steps exactly. Sometimes they're just a nice thing to aim for to give me some direction. Not to mention that having an understanding those types of structures gives you the power to subvert them!
I wrote a couple of unfinished comics and 2 short stories. When I learnt about the hero's journey I really liked it. I was amazed at the books and movies that have used it well. Now, of course when I read and detect it, it is predictable, and thus, a bit less enjoying. Having a structure that can work well is great.
Exactly! It's super helpful at those developing stages.
I've been into creative writing for 13 years now and the only writing advice that ever really helped me was "Ignore all writing advice. Only you can find out what works for you." As soon as I tuned out all that noiseand began experimenting on my own, things just started to click.
I mean, no offense Campfire-people, but of course AuthorTubers are going to tell us that their advice really works, so that we watch more of their videos.
No offence taken whatsoever! Experimentation in a vaccum is going to work for some people, and that's completely fine. If you enjoy writing and trying things out on your own, then more power to you. Although, I would disagree with the idea that stategy would work best for everybody.
Personally, it way easier for me to try out things when I have a reference point. There's so many things I would've never considered if someone hadn't told me "Hey, look how cool this is!" When I can tell there is something wrong in my work that I can't quite figure out, having a frame of reference to look at the problem is helpful.