Currently, the fastest way to get Stratford from West Croydon is via the Overground to Canada Water, then change to the Jubilee Line to Stratford. Tbf, it's not too bad.
Hey Ashley! Haven't watched you since your 'how many stations can you go to direct from London' series, very glad to see you've got more popular, you deserve it for all the hard work! :-)
Honestly, this is a pipe dream. I can see the benefit of a fast connection from Croydon to Canary Wharf and Stratford, and maybe beyond, but no one with any influence within the rail industry is promoting it. Crossrail 2 is already semi-abandoned, and that has 30+ years of planning behind it.
The idea of a second main line to Brighton, now worked into the plan for a South Coast-Docklands route, was first proposed as an alternative to the LB&SC route in... 1900!
A very interesting vid Ashley! Thameslink 2 is quite doable as far as cost is concerned as is Crossrail 3 but NOT 2! Here's how and why. 1) Thameslink 2: a) Build links from the present Thameslink with curves to Cannon Street b) Build a short tunnel between Cannon Street and Fenchurch Street and c) Link the Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street at Mile end by another short tunnel. All these can be built incrementally. 2) Crossrail 3: A short tunnel between Vauxhall and Bermondsey will do that but with a station at Lambeth North instead of Waterloo as well as a tunnel to Heathrow from Staines 3) Crossrail 2 NO WAY!! There is an alternative just as effective as this and it involves Thameslink. a) Link Thameslink with the line going to Victoria at Loughborough junction going Westwards b)Link the trains going towards Victoria connect with the line at Queenstown Road going West towards Clapham Junction. This will allow the Thameslink trains to go South West and can go ad far as Reading, Basingstoke and Guildford. Just as effective as Crossrail 2 if not more and at a fraction of the cost!
Not only the money problem, but capacity issues will come up. East Croydon is already a bottleneck and a whole new railway line is unlikely to fit in well, even with the remodel coming up. The problem with the BML2 plans is that they really aren't that realistic when looked at holistically. Sure a railway between Croydon and Stratford would be great but how will it affect the other railways around it and can what it promises to do be done through capacity upgrades elsewhere.
If you look at the plans on the RailFuture website it mentions that one option would be to tunnel under East Croydon rather than using surface platforms.
@@jonathanbaker3307 Yes, but the problem is the junctions between BML2 and BML that Railfuture want so you can do Gatwick-Stansted on a direct service, and still do Oxted-Victoria/London Bridge. East Croydon is a bottleneck mostly because it's a massive junction where London Bridge and Victoria services rearrange themselves into Surrey and Sussex (roughly - perhaps 'Commuter Belt' and 'Coast' is a better alliterative pair). The proposal is to add another route to the north, and to beef up one to the south. A load more complexity in the service pattern - which just makes the problem worse.
Spot on with the issue of the big picture being terrible. It takes sensible small schemes that don't quite have a case, joins them together to try and create more benefits (and ignoring that it has created more costs), and turns it into something worse than the sum of its parts.
@@sihollett Exactly, by itself the extension of the line from Uckfield to Lewes is a good rail scheme. Trying to turn that into a relief route for the BML isn’t going to work.
Nice and informative video. Croydon-Lewisham-Stratford is a very promising route that can also serve North Greenwich peninsula and O2 Arena as well as the Royal Docks (and the London City Airport either directly or via DLR), making an interchange with the Crossrail at Custom House (alternatively - via Canary Wharf but the more eastern route would bring more connectivity) and at Stratford. Other logical links: Thameslink - Islington to Croydon via London Bridge subterranean station with a partial use of Islington-Moorgate branch; Crossrail - Clapham Junction to Greenwich via Waterloo and London Bridge subterranean stations; Crossrail - Marilebone to Hayes via Waterloo-Carring Cross and Lewisham subterranean station; London Overground - Clapham Junction to Dartford via Bexleyheath with the interchange at Brockley. It is also a shame that therein no interchange between Thameslink and London Overground that share miles of East London line between New Cross Gate and Croydon but another stop for Thameslink looks technically difficult.
Great video.☺️ Edit: You forgot about the 8 car Thames Link Trains. They also run 8 car Thames Link Trains through the Core at peak times too depending on which lines it’s on.
The history of this proposal is that it is the Wealden line (Uckfield-Lewes reopening) gone out of control. In trying to make a case for Uckfield-Lewes, they decided to have it as a new London-South Coast mainline 'BML2' so that more trains would run on it in order to try and justify the expense of reopening. Which then morphed into a cross-London railway when they saw some of the problems of what they proposed. BML2 realised they couldn't get the additional trains they wanted through East Croydon due to capacity constraints, so proposed reopening the Elmers End - Sanderstead railway (ignoring that Tramlink uses much of it) and then heading to London Bridge on the rails that way (ignoring the problems there). This created a new mainline that was not only slower than the BML to the South Coast, but didn't serve the main destination of Croydon (also misses Gatwick, but we'll ignore that) en-route. Not serving Croydon was seen as a big problem - the first proposal was to build a link to switch some trains off the BML and onto BML2 south of Croydon to enable more trains onto the BML and run some BML2 trains to Victoria via Croydon. Then it became an interchange station between the lines south of South Croydon station (where they are close). Then it became an interchange station and everywhere-everywhere else service. Finally they realised that relocating Tramlink was going to be expensive anyway, and so an Elmers End - South Croydon tunnel via East Croydon was proposed. Issues with the capacity between London Bridge and Lewisham added a tunnel to Docklands and Stratford. And Haykerloo conversion of the Hayes line to Bakerloo meant they joined the two tunnels. IMV, the biggest issue with the scheme is that it just makes the BML worse by adding a third London destination to serve, while not creating a decent alternative for South Coast-London journey due to BML2 being slower. It's sensible schemes (link Croydon and Lewisham with a direct route, N-S Railway through Docklands, Uckfield-Lewes) with potential, but not quite enough to justify them building them, turned into a shiny scheme with crayons that undermines the case for doing any of it.
Similarly, there doesn't seem to be any thought for what happens when the trains get to Stratford. Eastwards, the GE main line will already be full with Crossrail and Greater Anglia services; northwards, to Tottenham Hale and beyond, there isn't enough demand to justify a "Thameslink 2" level of service; westwards, the North London Line is also already full.
This is a really good summary of why the BML2 just isn't a well thought out scheme. There's virtually no spare capacity anywhere en-route so it's basically a brand new 80km railway, half the length of HS2 Phase 1. Importantly, Brighton, Croydon and Gatwick are already very well connected to London, and all are just a single change from Canary Wharf and Stratford. If we had all the money in the world it might be an interesting scheme to consider but in the real world its way down on the list of priorities in London.
The BML2 info online winds me up a little! it's 'oven ready' yet has nothing more than a few simple diagrams and no details. It states it is all simple and cheap yet prosses a massive tunnel near lewes. and benefits? Longer journeys for Lewes and Brighton (so why use this route), no benefits for anything west of brighton. No benefits for those on the actual BML such as Gatwick, and an obsession with the old Tunbridge wells West station building (they do surely realise that even if Tunbridge West reopnened, it wouldn't warrant a station building like that?).
Remember when quoting the capacity of each trains that some are 12 car (Class 700/1) and some only 8 (class 700/0). Also I think the Clapham Junction - Kensington link should be upgraded to a full Thameslink style route avoiding central London as well as being a Overground line. Of course now we will have to see what the new Great British Railways organisation will do.
There is a significant issue with building to the Hayes Line. The Bakerloo Line is proposed to run services along it, so having that, along with Thameslink 2 trains, and possibly (but unlikely) national Rail services from Charing Cross, which currently use the line, would make the line so congested, and only around 8 tph would likely operate on the Thameslink 2.
Many thanks and DEEP RESPECT for the video Ash. I will definately check out railfuture.org very soon! It will be very expensive and unaffordable in today's climate BUT there is an alternative! 1) Link the Brighton route to Cannon Street. 2) a short tunnel between Cannon Street and Fenchurch Street with 1 station in between. 3) A tunnel between the lines at Mile End with a station there. These can be built incrimentally which will be far cheaper and doable in this climate!
Informative little video, as always - thanks Ashley. Just curious about the v.brief glimpse of "St.Albans" - what's that view of? Looks more like a continental (ie. european) city to me! ;-)
Changing from the Jubilee line to the London Overground at Canada Waters in order to get to West Croydon isn't an issue at all. Both lines are fairly new extensions in that the Jubilee line was extended in 1999/2000 and the London Overground formerly (ELLX) was extended in two phases in 2010/2012.
Your calculation at 02:40 overlooked the fact that 24 trains per hour is only in one direction. For the total number of passengers coming from both north and south, you need to multiply by 2. And my immediate reaction to the proposal would be: where on earth is the money after covid 19, and where will the passengers who pay the season tickets come from (now that more people will work from home)?
Whilst acknowledging the importance of East Croydon for certain rail routes, the town of Croydon itself isn’t like a wonderful or strategically important destination. It supposedly has been ripe for massive redevelopment for years but this simply never ever happens there
Sounds interesting but in a post Covid world it’s very unlikely it’ll ever get built, even in pre Covid times, Thameslink 2 was a floating idea at best, and far below other proposed schemes such as the Bakerloo extension, CrossRail 2, Northern line split, Docklands extension to Thamesmead and HS2. In a post Covid world, people are leaving London, people are commuting fewer days a week, long term working remotely from home will be here to stay. As things stand now only the Northern line split and the DLR extension to Thamesmead are happening because they’re the schemes that London actually needs. Great video btw 😊
Covid19 has simply wreaked havoc with every single current plan to improve the environment. Think about it and the new rules: Work from home, don't travel on buses, trains, aircraft, taxis, use one's own car (provided you haven't thought the anti-car brigade were right and already got rid of your car), don't bother with electric cars yet too since traffic levels no longer justifies putting 33kV cables in roads in all towns etc etc. Thank God we kept our car.
Thaneslink 2 is probably needed but not for another 20-30 years. And people probably would also think about Crossrail 3 which again wouldn’t happen for 20-30 years. With Crossrail 2 planned to be built from Southwest London and parts of Surrey to Northeast London via Chelsea or avoiding Chelsea. And a eastern section to Epping taking over the Central Line which is possible. And we are still hoping for Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) to open in 2021/2022 from Shenfield, Essex and Abbey Wood to Heathrow Airport and Reading, Berkshire. And possibly extend the Elizabeth Line to Newbury, Didcot Parkway and Oxford if electrification to Oxford does happen.
Double-decker trains need extended station dwell times, so reduce capacity on busy urban lines with frequent stops. Sydney's legacy network uses double-decker trains but new lines being built will use single-decker trains to increase capacity. Double-decker trains can be viable on lines with few stops on the most highly-utilised parts of the network. However, even if double-decker trains were viable on a new line, the cost of rebuilding infrastructure on existing lines for the required height clearance would generally be uneconomic.
The UK has a small loading gauge, that's the bore size of tunnels and bridges. So we wouldn't get the gains in capacity other countries get. You can thank the arch scrimper George Stephenson and his political cronies for that. Double decker coaches have been tried, back in the '50s. They resulted in such an increase in wait time, their use was limited to only a few routes. That wait time would be a complete show stopper on today's maxed out lines.
Great video Ashley. Do you think that if the London 2050 plan fully materializes, then TfL re-brand Thameslink & Crossrail into one network? Such as the RER in Paris?
You don't have to pay zone 1 fares to get from Croydon to Stratford; you can take the Overground to Canada Water (if you start at East Croydon you can change anywhere along the line) and change onto the Jubilee Line. I agree it's not fast enough (perhaps they should stop Thameslink at New Cross Gate). The Railfuture website is just someone's pipe-dream; it seems to think they can take back over the Bluebell line south of East Grinstead, which is a privately-owned steam preservation line now.
If London needed a direct link between Croydon and Stratford that desperately wouldn't it be much easier to build a new branch between Dalston Junction and Hackney Central on the East London line? Or something like that.
He said there is going to be an estimated 400 percent more passengers on the East London Line. Building additional branches on the East London Line would induce additional demand and would increase the load above 400 percent. One of the big problems with London Underground, and on the East London Line specifically is that Wapping and Shadwell are tiny stations that are not easily extended (without demolishing listed building elements). There was actually talk of London Underground abandoning those stations, and the East London Line itself, over demands about protecting some of Brunell's elements. So, while other lines have made their platforms longer, London Overground is limited here. A new Thameslink 2 line would run in parallel to this, take all the long distance passengers away and make space for more short-distance passengers. But you have to ask yourself, how many passengers want to go all the way from Croydon to Stratford...and how many passengers want to make part of that journey? If you are only taking away a small number of passengers, you might still have emergency station closures on the East London Line because of platform overcrowding. But if you took away half the passengers, it would be worth it.
These are easy enough. Bromley to Croydon - train to Beckenham Junction, tram to Croydon Croydon to Sutton - straight train Sutton to Kingston - train to Wimbledon, train to Kingston Kingston to LHR - train to Feltham, bus to LHR LHR to Uxbridge - Picc to Acton, Picc to Uxbridge Uxbridge to Watford - bunch of buses to Harrow, train to Watford/Met to Harrow, Met to Watford, 10 minute walk Watford to St Albans - train to St Albans Abbey, walk
Very good ideas, and I'm with you all the way. But compared to other foreign cities, it takes up to four times as long to get anything built. And more money is spent on so called 'research and development' then the construction costs themselves.
East Zone 1 (area within the Isle of Dogs upto Stratford). The enclave Travel Zone. Since this would being in revenue, when people Travel into the Royal Dock business enterprise zone and the like. So, the argument that this would stay outside Zone 1 in 25 years time Will be nonsense at City Hall. Raise every penny it can out of commuters needing To work East of the Capital. Battersea power station and Nine Elms will soon become Zone 1. So the reasoning it the same case here with Canary Wharf in time.
Great Video ! I got a suggestion, can you do videos of tube lines that were never built like the: The Edgwere Road tube schemes : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgware_Road_Tube_schemes The City & Brixton Railway : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_Brixton_Railway
I think we have to respect the needs of the North. These links may be desirable, sensible, but up North they're essential and a fair rebalancing. Expect a Jarrow-style march if this goes ahead!
@@lawrence18uk rubbish joke aside, when the crunch comes to crunch few areas outside of London go for increasing local taxes (e.g. business rates) or implementing local revenue schemes like the congestion charge zone (Manchester voted not to go ahead with the tram extension when it was tied with that requirement) to make public transport investment more attractive for central funds as too few people rely on it and would not see themselves as using it. A bit of a chicken and egg situation sure but the way that local councils are ripping up publically funded active transport initiatives for political and not evidence based motives currently and the fact that London has always subsidised the rest of the UK, I dont have much sympathy and will always support London based mass-transit proposals and willing to put my money where my mouth is.
Hasn't London had enough funding for transport i.e. the over budgeted Elizabeth Line. About time other regional areas e.g. South West and the Northern areas receive more funding to improve their networks.
Unleash the HSR lines and add express tracks to some tube lines and run intercity trains and HSR via the express tracks add new cross town lines to route extra trains even if it means making circulator routes like the grand Paris express but with through running trains extra commuter and some new HSR through trips instead of dedicated light metro trains like in Paris
2:26 OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH GOD WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NUMBER THAT NUMBER IS CURSED
The whole ideal of TL2 as proposed here is a bad one. It does not make sense from a operation perspective in the same way that Thameslink does. It a poor idea to keep running services through Croydon East, it a pinch point that max out.
Why are Thameslink focusing so hard on the south there should be more branches in the north, what is the need of a stratford branch when there are hundreds of ways
Thameslink is also one of the worst operators being unreliable and replacing their reliable Class 319s from a 15 minute service, with iron board seat Class 700s with a service every half-hour.
The experience of remote working since early 2020 has made nonsense of forecast extrapolations about travel demand in cities. The Elizabeth line may turn out to be as big a white elephant in operation as it was a botched construction project: eventually operational against a very different environment from the 1990s when it was conceived. I doubt we will see any more like it.
hi i suspect clowning around here. london is overcrowded enough,this plan only encourages overcrowding, eg look at the M25 the more lanes you put the more cars there are.before the lddc came in london wasnt too bad in the 70s
Your thinking is backwards. “If you dint build it, they won’t come” doesn’t work. Growth is expected, transport planning to deal with it is developed.if you don’t build the infrastructure, it doesn’t stop people from moving in, it just gives them worse transport options when they do.
You haven't a clue what you are talking about and absolutely no railway knowledge. There is no direct link between the bml and Stratford other than freight only lines which are not electrified and never will be.
Currently, the fastest way to get Stratford from West Croydon is via the Overground to Canada Water, then change to the Jubilee Line to Stratford. Tbf, it's not too bad.
Actually the quickest way is to take a semi-fast southern service to London Bridge and get the jubilee line
And cheaper aswell
Thats bad
@@PGATProductions Or Thameslink to St.Pancras Int and Southeastern train to Stratford ;)
All depends how long waiting for conection is...
@@stanley3647 but then you have to change at norwood junction or east croydon
Thanks Ashley for the info, nice looking kitchen you have to film in.
counterintuitive how Crossrail runs parallel with Thames and Thameslink crosses it
Very good little videos with nice clear explanations, great graphs and funny slips thrown in free of charge
Hey Ashley! Haven't watched you since your 'how many stations can you go to direct from London' series, very glad to see you've got more popular, you deserve it for all the hard work! :-)
Angusz! Thanks for sticking with me! Really enjoy making these and hope to see you round for more
Honestly, this is a pipe dream. I can see the benefit of a fast connection from Croydon to Canary Wharf and Stratford, and maybe beyond, but no one with any influence within the rail industry is promoting it. Crossrail 2 is already semi-abandoned, and that has 30+ years of planning behind it.
He also mentions Crossrail 3, I think we're more likely to see Betelgeuse go supernova before that ever gets built
The idea of a second main line to Brighton, now worked into the plan for a South Coast-Docklands route, was first proposed as an alternative to the LB&SC route in... 1900!
A very interesting vid Ashley! Thameslink 2 is quite doable as far as cost is concerned as is Crossrail 3 but NOT 2! Here's how and why. 1) Thameslink 2: a) Build links from the present Thameslink with curves to Cannon Street b) Build a short tunnel between Cannon Street and Fenchurch Street and c) Link the Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street at Mile end by another short tunnel. All these can be built incrementally. 2) Crossrail 3: A short tunnel between Vauxhall and Bermondsey will do that but with a station at Lambeth North instead of Waterloo as well as a tunnel to Heathrow from Staines 3) Crossrail 2 NO WAY!! There is an alternative just as effective as this and it involves Thameslink. a) Link Thameslink with the line going to Victoria at Loughborough junction going Westwards b)Link the trains going towards Victoria connect with the line at Queenstown Road going West towards Clapham Junction. This will allow the Thameslink trains to go South West and can go ad far as Reading, Basingstoke and Guildford. Just as effective as Crossrail 2 if not more and at a fraction of the cost!
your "enough pot in the money" slip made me think ... the answer to finding the money maybe to legalise (and tax) pot !
Not only the money problem, but capacity issues will come up. East Croydon is already a bottleneck and a whole new railway line is unlikely to fit in well, even with the remodel coming up.
The problem with the BML2 plans is that they really aren't that realistic when looked at holistically. Sure a railway between Croydon and Stratford would be great but how will it affect the other railways around it and can what it promises to do be done through capacity upgrades elsewhere.
If you look at the plans on the RailFuture website it mentions that one option would be to tunnel under East Croydon rather than using surface platforms.
@@jonathanbaker3307 Wouldn't solve anything, those trains will end up on the same lines south of East Croydon, just moving the problem.
@@jonathanbaker3307 Yes, but the problem is the junctions between BML2 and BML that Railfuture want so you can do Gatwick-Stansted on a direct service, and still do Oxted-Victoria/London Bridge. East Croydon is a bottleneck mostly because it's a massive junction where London Bridge and Victoria services rearrange themselves into Surrey and Sussex (roughly - perhaps 'Commuter Belt' and 'Coast' is a better alliterative pair). The proposal is to add another route to the north, and to beef up one to the south. A load more complexity in the service pattern - which just makes the problem worse.
Spot on with the issue of the big picture being terrible. It takes sensible small schemes that don't quite have a case, joins them together to try and create more benefits (and ignoring that it has created more costs), and turns it into something worse than the sum of its parts.
@@sihollett Exactly, by itself the extension of the line from Uckfield to Lewes is a good rail scheme. Trying to turn that into a relief route for the BML isn’t going to work.
Nice and informative video. Croydon-Lewisham-Stratford is a very promising route that can also serve North Greenwich peninsula and O2 Arena as well as the Royal Docks (and the London City Airport either directly or via DLR), making an interchange with the Crossrail at Custom House (alternatively - via Canary Wharf but the more eastern route would bring more connectivity) and at Stratford. Other logical links: Thameslink - Islington to Croydon via London Bridge subterranean station with a partial use of Islington-Moorgate branch; Crossrail - Clapham Junction to Greenwich via Waterloo and London Bridge subterranean stations; Crossrail - Marilebone to Hayes via Waterloo-Carring Cross and Lewisham subterranean station; London Overground - Clapham Junction to Dartford via Bexleyheath with the interchange at Brockley. It is also a shame that therein no interchange between Thameslink and London Overground that share miles of East London line between New Cross Gate and Croydon but another stop for Thameslink looks technically difficult.
Great video.☺️
Edit: You forgot about the 8 car Thames Link Trains. They also run 8 car Thames Link Trains through the Core at peak times too depending on which lines it’s on.
The history of this proposal is that it is the Wealden line (Uckfield-Lewes reopening) gone out of control. In trying to make a case for Uckfield-Lewes, they decided to have it as a new London-South Coast mainline 'BML2' so that more trains would run on it in order to try and justify the expense of reopening. Which then morphed into a cross-London railway when they saw some of the problems of what they proposed.
BML2 realised they couldn't get the additional trains they wanted through East Croydon due to capacity constraints, so proposed reopening the Elmers End - Sanderstead railway (ignoring that Tramlink uses much of it) and then heading to London Bridge on the rails that way (ignoring the problems there). This created a new mainline that was not only slower than the BML to the South Coast, but didn't serve the main destination of Croydon (also misses Gatwick, but we'll ignore that) en-route.
Not serving Croydon was seen as a big problem - the first proposal was to build a link to switch some trains off the BML and onto BML2 south of Croydon to enable more trains onto the BML and run some BML2 trains to Victoria via Croydon. Then it became an interchange station between the lines south of South Croydon station (where they are close). Then it became an interchange station and everywhere-everywhere else service. Finally they realised that relocating Tramlink was going to be expensive anyway, and so an Elmers End - South Croydon tunnel via East Croydon was proposed. Issues with the capacity between London Bridge and Lewisham added a tunnel to Docklands and Stratford. And Haykerloo conversion of the Hayes line to Bakerloo meant they joined the two tunnels.
IMV, the biggest issue with the scheme is that it just makes the BML worse by adding a third London destination to serve, while not creating a decent alternative for South Coast-London journey due to BML2 being slower. It's sensible schemes (link Croydon and Lewisham with a direct route, N-S Railway through Docklands, Uckfield-Lewes) with potential, but not quite enough to justify them building them, turned into a shiny scheme with crayons that undermines the case for doing any of it.
Similarly, there doesn't seem to be any thought for what happens when the trains get to Stratford. Eastwards, the GE main line will already be full with Crossrail and Greater Anglia services; northwards, to Tottenham Hale and beyond, there isn't enough demand to justify a "Thameslink 2" level of service; westwards, the North London Line is also already full.
This is a really good summary of why the BML2 just isn't a well thought out scheme. There's virtually no spare capacity anywhere en-route so it's basically a brand new 80km railway, half the length of HS2 Phase 1. Importantly, Brighton, Croydon and Gatwick are already very well connected to London, and all are just a single change from Canary Wharf and Stratford.
If we had all the money in the world it might be an interesting scheme to consider but in the real world its way down on the list of priorities in London.
The BML2 info online winds me up a little! it's 'oven ready' yet has nothing more than a few simple diagrams and no details. It states it is all simple and cheap yet prosses a massive tunnel near lewes. and benefits? Longer journeys for Lewes and Brighton (so why use this route), no benefits for anything west of brighton. No benefits for those on the actual BML such as Gatwick, and an obsession with the old Tunbridge wells West station building (they do surely realise that even if Tunbridge West reopnened, it wouldn't warrant a station building like that?).
I have this sudden desire to travel from Croydon to Stratford.
Remember when quoting the capacity of each trains that some are 12 car (Class 700/1) and some only 8 (class 700/0). Also I think the Clapham Junction - Kensington link should be upgraded to a full Thameslink style route avoiding central London as well as being a Overground line.
Of course now we will have to see what the new Great British Railways organisation will do.
There is a significant issue with building to the Hayes Line. The Bakerloo Line is proposed to run services along it, so having that, along with Thameslink 2 trains, and possibly (but unlikely) national Rail services from Charing Cross, which currently use the line, would make the line so congested, and only around 8 tph would likely operate on the Thameslink 2.
There is already a route from ECroydon to Tonbrige - but they stopped it now at Redhill were you have to change. And only 1 train a hour.
Many thanks and DEEP RESPECT for the video Ash. I will definately check out railfuture.org very soon! It will be very expensive and unaffordable in today's climate BUT there is an alternative! 1) Link the Brighton route to Cannon Street. 2) a short tunnel between Cannon Street and Fenchurch Street with 1 station in between. 3) A tunnel between the lines at Mile End with a station there. These can be built incrimentally which will be far cheaper and doable in this climate!
Great video. There’s definitely a need for more outer central london routes especially west to east in south london
Informative little video, as always - thanks Ashley.
Just curious about the v.brief glimpse of "St.Albans" - what's that view of? Looks more like a continental (ie. european) city to me! ;-)
Changing from the Jubilee line to the London Overground at Canada Waters in order to get to West Croydon isn't an issue at all.
Both lines are fairly new extensions in that the Jubilee line was extended in 1999/2000 and the London Overground formerly (ELLX) was extended in two phases in 2010/2012.
Thameslink 2 electric boogaloo
It seems that there is a severe lackof plans to bring more rail to SW london. Theres currently only SWR (and the planned crossrail 2)
Your calculation at 02:40 overlooked the fact that 24 trains per hour is only in one direction. For the total number of passengers coming from both north and south, you need to multiply by 2.
And my immediate reaction to the proposal would be: where on earth is the money after covid 19, and where will the passengers who pay the season tickets come from (now that more people will work from home)?
Whilst acknowledging the importance of East Croydon for certain rail routes, the town of Croydon itself isn’t like a wonderful or strategically important destination. It supposedly has been ripe for massive redevelopment for years but this simply never ever happens there
I agree, it's a sh!thole 🤣
It took almost 30 years to build the Thameslink Programme so God knows how long the Croydon to Stratford link will take!
Sounds interesting but in a post Covid world it’s very unlikely it’ll ever get built, even in pre Covid times, Thameslink 2 was a floating idea at best, and far below other proposed schemes such as the Bakerloo extension, CrossRail 2, Northern line split, Docklands extension to Thamesmead and HS2.
In a post Covid world, people are leaving London, people are commuting fewer days a week, long term working remotely from home will be here to stay.
As things stand now only the Northern line split and the DLR extension to Thamesmead are happening because they’re the schemes that London actually needs.
Great video btw 😊
Covid19 has simply wreaked havoc with every single current plan to improve the environment. Think about it and the new rules: Work from home, don't travel on buses, trains, aircraft, taxis, use one's own car (provided you haven't thought the anti-car brigade were right and already got rid of your car), don't bother with electric cars yet too since traffic levels no longer justifies putting 33kV cables in roads in all towns etc etc. Thank God we kept our car.
@@corrigenda70 or cycle?
We have the Elizabeth line now what's the point
Run all the proposed routes and use them to dump extra trains outside the city to reduce downtown traffic
Fair video, great graphics, sub-par spelling. Uckfield and East Grinstead.
Thaneslink 2 is probably needed but not for another 20-30 years. And people probably would also think about Crossrail 3 which again wouldn’t happen for 20-30 years. With Crossrail 2 planned to be built from Southwest London and parts of Surrey to Northeast London via Chelsea or avoiding Chelsea. And a eastern section to Epping taking over the Central Line which is possible.
And we are still hoping for Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) to open in 2021/2022 from Shenfield, Essex and Abbey Wood to Heathrow Airport and Reading, Berkshire. And possibly extend the Elizabeth Line to Newbury, Didcot Parkway and Oxford if electrification to Oxford does happen.
What about to ebbsfleet and Southend Crossrail (Elizabeth line) extension to that would be very good for London.
Crossrail 2 is being postponed. No way Crossrail will be extended. TfL is almost bankrupt.
@@bfapple I think you are right about Crossrail 2 being postponed.
Oxford and didcot are you mad?!?!first ebbsfleet and grave send
Oxford and Newbury are too far out of TfL's remit.
Just a question, why there are not double-decker trains in UK as thousands of commuters heading London every day? Thanks
Double-decker trains need extended station dwell times, so reduce capacity on busy urban lines with frequent stops. Sydney's legacy network uses double-decker trains but new lines being built will use single-decker trains to increase capacity. Double-decker trains can be viable on lines with few stops on the most highly-utilised parts of the network. However, even if double-decker trains were viable on a new line, the cost of rebuilding infrastructure on existing lines for the required height clearance would generally be uneconomic.
The UK has a small loading gauge, that's the bore size of tunnels and bridges. So we wouldn't get the gains in capacity other countries get. You can thank the arch scrimper George Stephenson and his political cronies for that.
Double decker coaches have been tried, back in the '50s. They resulted in such an increase in wait time, their use was limited to only a few routes. That wait time would be a complete show stopper on today's maxed out lines.
Great video Ashley. Do you think that if the London 2050 plan fully materializes, then TfL re-brand Thameslink & Crossrail into one network? Such as the RER in Paris?
This would fix a massive gap on the network, I'm all for it.
Ha! I’ll believe that when I see it!
Would it go through Tonbridge
Could Thameslink run to places like Basingstoke or Southampton
Are your Thameslink capacity figures per direction?
They don't need to put thameslink to Stratford
Just reinstate the east curve at dalston junction and London overground can provide the link
You don't have to pay zone 1 fares to get from Croydon to Stratford; you can take the Overground to Canada Water (if you start at East Croydon you can change anywhere along the line) and change onto the Jubilee Line. I agree it's not fast enough (perhaps they should stop Thameslink at New Cross Gate). The Railfuture website is just someone's pipe-dream; it seems to think they can take back over the Bluebell line south of East Grinstead, which is a privately-owned steam preservation line now.
If London needed a direct link between Croydon and Stratford that desperately wouldn't it be much easier to build a new branch between Dalston Junction and Hackney Central on the East London line? Or something like that.
He said there is going to be an estimated 400 percent more passengers on the East London Line.
Building additional branches on the East London Line would induce additional demand and would increase the load above 400 percent.
One of the big problems with London Underground, and on the East London Line specifically is that Wapping and Shadwell are tiny stations that are not easily extended (without demolishing listed building elements). There was actually talk of London Underground abandoning those stations, and the East London Line itself, over demands about protecting some of Brunell's elements.
So, while other lines have made their platforms longer, London Overground is limited here.
A new Thameslink 2 line would run in parallel to this, take all the long distance passengers away and make space for more short-distance passengers.
But you have to ask yourself, how many passengers want to go all the way from Croydon to Stratford...and how many passengers want to make part of that journey? If you are only taking away a small number of passengers, you might still have emergency station closures on the East London Line because of platform overcrowding. But if you took away half the passengers, it would be worth it.
1:36 it’s east grinstead not “east grindstead” on the map
1:57 I never knew St. Albans was so Germanic. 😉
I've been compromised!
It's not!! ...this clip isn't even in the UK, it's in Germany. Mr Rabot please at least find video clips of St Albans.
yeah, this is Altenburg in Germany (Thuringia)
Gravesend is Liverpool’s church street
Wouldn’t it be cheaper just to link Thames link to HS1 at Kings Cross? Tunnels at Lewisham sounds difficult.
I've never seen East Grinstead spelt with two ds before. Is that the official Thameslink map?
you spell it with one d
So the suggestion is to pay someone loads of money to dig a tunnel to enable more passengers to pay lower fares ?
Will there be new trains for that route
Thameslink is way bigger than I thought holy sh- it's so big I didn't know it went all the way to Brighton
They should have the TFL rail aka Elizabeth line go to Romford from penge east
How exactly would that work? Why penge east? Furthermore why not utilise the LU to Upminster
the most tricky routes to make at present Bromley->Croydon->Sutton->Kingston->LHR->Uxbridge->Watford->St Albans
Watford to St Albans is easy. Just take a shuttle to St Albans Abbey and then walk a short distance
These are easy enough.
Bromley to Croydon - train to Beckenham Junction, tram to Croydon
Croydon to Sutton - straight train
Sutton to Kingston - train to Wimbledon, train to Kingston
Kingston to LHR - train to Feltham, bus to LHR
LHR to Uxbridge - Picc to Acton, Picc to Uxbridge
Uxbridge to Watford - bunch of buses to Harrow, train to Watford/Met to Harrow, Met to Watford, 10 minute walk
Watford to St Albans - train to St Albans Abbey, walk
@@suchetashete9082 It used to be easier. 726 Coach Bromley-LHR then Bus or Green Line Coaches straightforward from there.
Clip at 1.57 shows Altenburg in Thuringia (Germany). :-)
he put a wrong label to some clip in his database!
Thameslink is very useful!
I always wonder how it is possible that South London is almost devoid of underground lines, compared to the north bank..
I gather it is, at least partly, to do with geology. Parts of South London are awkward to dig through.
I live on Greater Anglia and I’d love to see 700s come my way.
Love to see the rancid 700,s kidding right ugliest units with the worst seats
@@andrewganley9016 Tbh standard class isn’t great but declassified first class is way better.
Why not extend the tram network? Cheaper and London needs a new Thames Crossing.
It'll have to be a huge extension to reach the river
I think the 12 car Thameslink are the longest commuter trains in the world!
1:58 that is not St Albans
At present Thameslink services to East Grinstead are as rare as Hens teeth.
if this happens, who knows how busy Stratford will be then
Very good ideas, and I'm with you all the way.
But compared to other foreign cities, it takes up to four times as long to get anything built. And more money is spent on so called 'research and development' then the construction costs themselves.
42096 ppl per hour? How close damnit
East Zone 1 (area within the Isle of Dogs upto Stratford).
The enclave Travel Zone. Since this would being in revenue, when people
Travel into the Royal Dock business enterprise zone and the like.
So, the argument that this would stay outside Zone 1 in 25 years time
Will be nonsense at City Hall. Raise every penny it can out of commuters needing
To work East of the Capital.
Battersea power station and Nine Elms will soon become Zone 1.
So the reasoning it the same case here with Canary Wharf in time.
Nice video!!!!
7:20 “Not enough pot in the money” huh 🤷🏻♂️
Get that pot in the money! GO GO GO
The Thameslink core can handle about 10 trains p/hour if you're lucky lol
Wdym it can handle 24 tph
@@juanescobar8123 nope
24tph is one train every 2 1/2 minutes. That's what the frequency is in the Thameslink core. Its a fact
@@juanescobar8123 what works on paper rarely works in real life 🙄
Rarely... not never
Great Video ! I got a suggestion, can you do videos of tube lines that were never built like the:
The Edgwere Road tube schemes : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgware_Road_Tube_schemes
The City & Brixton Railway : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_Brixton_Railway
"tube lines that were never built" are pretty well covered by Jago Hazzard.
2:23 pretty devils number on the top left corner
I think we have to respect the needs of the North. These links may be desirable, sensible, but up North they're essential and a fair rebalancing. Expect a Jarrow-style march if this goes ahead!
Not sure why anyone up North has a need for a Stratford to Croydon railway line
@@suburbia2050 exactly...
@@lawrence18uk rubbish joke aside, when the crunch comes to crunch few areas outside of London go for increasing local taxes (e.g. business rates) or implementing local revenue schemes like the congestion charge zone (Manchester voted not to go ahead with the tram extension when it was tied with that requirement) to make public transport investment more attractive for central funds as too few people rely on it and would not see themselves as using it. A bit of a chicken and egg situation sure but the way that local councils are ripping up publically funded active transport initiatives for political and not evidence based motives currently and the fact that London has always subsidised the rest of the UK, I dont have much sympathy and will always support London based mass-transit proposals and willing to put my money where my mouth is.
If they open that line scrapping westfield Croydon would’ve been a big mistake
Hasn't London had enough funding for transport i.e. the over budgeted Elizabeth Line. About time other regional areas e.g. South West and the Northern areas receive more funding to improve their networks.
Given that London is the financial capital of the world I don’t think funding will stop anytime soon
666 seats on the train why did they have to make it that specific number such as devilish number to have
2:25 EVIL THAMESLINK (for context, 666 is the number of the devil)
Unleash the HSR lines and add express tracks to some tube lines and run intercity trains and HSR via the express tracks add new cross town lines to route extra trains even if it means making circulator routes like the grand Paris express but with through running trains extra commuter and some new HSR through trips instead of dedicated light metro trains like in Paris
Geoff is not seen this yet
If Geoff ever wants to collab, he knows where I am 😂
2:26 OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH GOD WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NUMBER THAT NUMBER IS CURSED
Corona circus will destroy everything.
The whole ideal of TL2 as proposed here is a bad one. It does not make sense from a operation perspective in the same way that Thameslink does. It a poor idea to keep running services through Croydon East, it a pinch point that max out.
Lol 'East Grindstead'
More buses? Are you kidding me there's too many to the point usage is low and routes are getting shorter
Change your title from 'Thameslink 2 is coming'
Meanwhile in China it would have been built.
London 2050 tube map
Why are Thameslink focusing so hard on the south there should be more branches in the north, what is the need of a stratford branch when there are hundreds of ways
The trains have 666 seats… Are the Thameslink trains controlled by the Devil?
2:24 ILLUMINATI CONFIRMED!!!!!!!
Grindstead? Grinstead 🤦♂️
Dear god, you can tell the seats are bad because the total amount of them spells the devils number
In train sim world 2
Thameslink is also one of the worst operators being unreliable and replacing their reliable Class 319s from a 15 minute service, with iron board seat Class 700s with a service every half-hour.
"Ever growing population in London".....London's population has fallen by over 700k in the last year.
yeah like 2020 was really a brilliant year to make a sensible comparison of long term trends on.
The experience of remote working since early 2020 has made nonsense of forecast extrapolations about travel demand in cities.
The Elizabeth line may turn out to be as big a white elephant in operation as it was a botched construction project: eventually operational against a very different environment from the 1990s when it was conceived. I doubt we will see any more like it.
hi i suspect clowning around here. london is overcrowded enough,this plan only encourages overcrowding, eg look at the M25 the more lanes you put the more cars there are.before the lddc came in london wasnt too bad in the 70s
Your thinking is backwards. “If you dint build it, they won’t come” doesn’t work. Growth is expected, transport planning to deal with it is developed.if you don’t build the infrastructure, it doesn’t stop people from moving in, it just gives them worse transport options when they do.
@@MichaelTavares in a post Covid world People are leaving London, this is in the sky
@@JayJay-nc7pr people may be leaving, but population bis still projected to grow.
God forbid! A new London Plan is required, focusing on reducing development in Greater London, not encouraging it.
You haven't a clue what you are talking about and absolutely no railway knowledge. There is no direct link between the bml and Stratford other than freight only lines which are not electrified and never will be.