Thameslink: London’s Other Cross-City Railway
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- Опубліковано 1 гру 2023
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Over the past few years, there's been lots of talk about London’s new Elizabeth line cross-city railway, but Thameslink - London's other cross-city rail - doesn’t get nearly enough attention. In today’s video, we'll change that.
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
Thameslink actually serves 2 airports: Gatwick directly; Luton via a people mover. To me, the biggest advantage of Thameslink is that it makes it much easier to travel beyond London. Instead of taking a local train, then changing to the tube, I can just take Thameslink directly to STP on the other side of the city.
Luton’s such a goof ahh airport, even Thameslink didn’t want to get within 50 metres of it.
@@Abrothers12 Thats just topography. There is about a 40m incline between the airport and the railway
The lack of direct connection is a bit bothersome to me, the people mover is pretty good!
@@RMTransit Snow Hill reopening followed major upgrades and electrification of the Midland line north. One of the justifications before low cost air was linking the charter point to point short haul market at Luton with access to Scheduled hub longer international services at Gatwick. (linking LGW by rail to London was already a feature from the outset when relocating from Croydon) Luton Direct connection was the additional Luton Parkway station to serve the terminal bus transfer instead of a city centre journey. Bus to Cable is way over budget justified more by carbon and image than real convenience.
@@RMTransit I actually had a connection between exactly those two airports last year, and travelled via this people-mover to Thameslink to airport route. Honestly, I found it pretty efficient, and considering that most of this trip took place at around 2am, the wait's for both were pretty reasonable.
Then again, I am Canadian, so I'm pretty easily impressed by efficient multi-modal transit links at airports. I'm so freaking excited for the 3rd REM stage though!
You also forgot to mention it's quite possibly the only railway line in the UK with truly 24 hour service throughout the week! (no, the night tube doesn't count as it only runs on Fridays and Saturdays). This comes in incredibly handy for us as we have an early morning flight from Gatwick next week and we're on the other side of London. We can just catch the train at 2am and it's far cheaper than a taxi or paying for parking at the airport.
And for incoming passengers as well. A few years back my incoming flight from Cyprus was delayed by a couple of hours and didn't land at Gatwick until around one in the morning. At Heathrow I would have been stranded until about 5AM but at Gatwick I was able to get a Thameslink into Central London (Blackfriars) and then catch a (24 Hour) bus back home.
But make sure you double check the status of your trains before you travel. When we went to Gatwick from Hendon Central in September, our 2AMsomething train was fine but the trains before were cancelled (and the trains only run once or max twice an hour at night). And on our way back, Thameslink was fucked. From Gatwick we managed to get to Victoria luckily and from there and Uber took us home for around £20 which is not bad considering we could have been stuck at Gatwick for hours.
@@nitosalt3142 Oh yeah, we're planning to catch the train before the one we actually need for this very reason!
Actually, that's another topic that Reece could cover in a video - trust in the system. I don't have too much trust in the UK's public transport, especially when it's for something as time-critical and expensive as a flight that I absolutely need to be on time for.
Roads of course can get congested and cause delays, but you're usually making forward progress and can set off a little earlier to compensate. With a train, if they randomly decide to cancel the train you were planning to take and the frequency is 1 per hour, you are absolutely up a creek without a paddle with the only alternative being a taxi (i.e. a car with someone else driving).
It is really impressive though. I’ll be curious to see what the long-term maintenance implication is.
@@RMTransit The core routes to Bedford, Brighton and Peterborough is all quad track so maintenance is straightforward on those. The pinch point is the central London core, if something fails there it usually goes pear-shaped!
Now, if only they could quad track the core...
It bugs me that the route that goes across the Thames is Thameslink and the one that runs along the Thames (ish) is Crossrail.
Welcome to London, were the Northern line dosn't have the most north station but has the most southern station of the tube.
I mean it makes sense when you think about it, its linking north south across the Thames, not following it.
The Circle Line isn’t a circle either. You’ll never sleep again.
@@paulhollis8879well it was when it opened although it was called the inner circle.
Who cares like it's just a name. It would have been the Fleet Line if not for 70s austerity too I guess
I live in Croydon, and since we don't have the tube here and the overground avoids central London Thameslink is my life line. Its direct service to London Bridge cannot be appreciated enough and has helped me live at home whilst going to uni in Bloomsbury. It is a hugely underappreciated service that I am glad exists
I'm a Driver Trainer on Thameslink. It's a great idea, but yeah the layout at Blackfrairs is not ideal... ETCS/ATO is a game changer.
Totally agree with the idea of Numbering/Lettering Routes. The Timetables do, so it could match those, such as "TL1"
Love a good train geeky comment
I think it's worth pointing out that Thameslink was started in the old British Rail days when demand was falling and the Government wanted to save money. Eliminating turnrounds of services from the north at King's Cross and from the south at Blackfriars/Holborn Viaduct saved money on operation and reduced the number of new trains required. It also allowed redevelopment of the site of Holborn Viaduct station for offices. Given that there was already a tunnel in place, it was an affordable scheme, not a visionary cross city RER. That came later with Thameslink 2000 (really bad idea to name a project with its intended opening date).
A rare and happy moment - I've actually been on a RMT-covered system!
While visiting the UK in the Springtime, I took the Elizabeth Line from Heathrow to Farringdon, and then Thameslink to the lovely town of Hitchin. The rest of our counterclockwise trip around England, Wales, and Ireland was all mainline rail, as well as bus. Anyway, Thameslink was a solid service, getting the work done without any fuss; we were happy with it.
Where are you from? If I have not covered the systems you are using!
@@RMTransit Haha - I'm from Hali... We don't have a system, so I just watch your channel and drool! Maybe someday...
Halifax?@@SnapDash
3:45 just want to point out, no Brighton trains go to Peterborough. Trains from Peterborough mainly head to Horsham, but some terminate at King’s Cross high level. Brighton Trains head off to Cambridge and Bedford
Thanks Reece for a brilliant and very clear summary of a system I know and love. Thameslink is indeed like an S-Bahn. The closest analogy is the Zurich S-Bahn, which like Thameslink has fast as well as all-stations services. But Zurich does use line numbers. Thameslink DESPERATELY NEEDS ROUTE NUMBERS/LETTERS.
Thameslink has revolutionised services to towns NORTH of London. Eg my native town of Hitchin (55 kms from London) had an hourly fast train to Kings Cross. Now there are four-fasts-an-hour, all going right across London at least as far south as Gatwick.
The relatively remote location of the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras is a weakness. However for passengers like me arriving from the East Midlands (I now live in Nottingham) the change is easy and quite short. Basically I just go down three flights of escalators.
This easy interchange means that East Midlanders wanting to go to the ‘City’, South London, or destinations south of London such as Brighton no longer use the ‘tube’. Just as the Liz line has relieved the Central Line, Thameslink has slightly relieved several tube lines, especially the Victoria. (The journey time St Pancras to London Bridge is slower than the city branch of the Northern, but the Thameslink trains are far more comfortable.)
Zurich is perhaps the closest analogue, but even then running 25 miles / 40km non-stop between Finsbury Park and Stevenage is really something else.
Route Numbers certainly not - numbers in London/UK mean buses and Thameslink's S-bahn/through-running regional express heavy rail is a very different thing to buses. They were proposed, looked at, and dropped in favour of the much-bigger-than-elsewhere information screens.
@@sihollett well here in Berlin we just combine a letter+number S11 (and yeah S for S-Bahn) so why not use something like TL1 etc. ?
@@3tronicummy man up there acting like only one form of transportation can use a route number 😂
@@3tronicum because London would have over 100 and the map would be more unusable due to the complex network unless collapsed, like now, into lines/networks. It is best to get people to the correct platform and then tell them what train they need by saying where the next few are going and where they will stop. A number is just a shibboleth at that point and while they could flag them better, the ones in the know wouldn't gain much, while the ones in the dark gain nothing (this is why head codes disappeared, and why Thameslink doesn't publicise the codes they already have).
Also allows more flexibility with stopping patterns (eg adding stops to make up for an earlier cancellation, or skipping stops at peak times).
@@austriankangaroo UK railways, especially in London, use line names. Thameslink is a railway, not a bus, and so should use railway nomenclature rather than bus nomenclature.
We do things differently in London to the Germans. We shouldn't have to confirm to some Germanic ideal when we (and Tokyo, New York suburban rail, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc) find our way is fine and changing isn't worth it - not least because the Germanic way isn't perfect either.
I think something worth mentioning here is that while both Thameslink and Crossrail provided new connections and such, they also freed up considerable capacity at terminus stations. This was a significant part of the rationale for both projects, with the increased jounrey options being a nice benefit.
In the case of Thameslink, the completed Thameslink Programme freed up capacity in St Pancras and London Bridge. Crossrail freed up capacity in Paddington and Liverpool Street.
I would like to also add the Thameslink Programme was called the Thameslink 2000 project - the original date it was to be completed by. It was only two decades late! 😅
It's funny to think that with all the complaining about Crossrail being late, nobody cares any more that Thamelink 2000 was 20 years late. And nobody cares that the Jubilee Line was 2 years late.
@@DavidShepheard Very true. The Crossrail project was far better managed, while Thameslink 2000 seems like it was never managed at all...
@@DavidShepheard just a much less legible project so people were less able to complain!
@@RMTransit Office Property redevelopment has revitalised an old light industrial area adjoining Fleet Street. The Southern Terminus at Holborn Viaduct was extensive and under used, closed stations at HV lower level (SnowHill), Ludgate Hill, and oversite at City TL all with improved accessibility were new opportunity zones after reopening.
@@DavidShepheardthe Thameslink 2000 moniker was really a marketing tool - I don't think this was ever a target even for the schemes promoters. Crossrail was first proposed in 1974 (although the concept dated back to 1941), so it could be said to be 40 years late!
Used to live at Wimbledon Chase which is one of the stops on the Wimbledon loop section and the original "Thames link". Useful but I mainly used the mainline from Wimbledon or Raynes Park due to frequency. Now the Thames link is a much bigger system, it's main attraction is the ability to get through London North to South while avoiding the underground which is actually quite tedious, especially with luggage. Key stations being Kings Cross St Pancras where you connect to a lot of north-going mainline trainlines, and Gatwick airport in the South and Luton airport in the North.
I think unless it is airport travellers, and schoolkids doing Wimbledon-Streathams at lot of the banjo service is football fans, for AFC Wimbledon , or Luton !
I grew up on that line and damn I didn't realize how good I had it until I moved to Canada.
For us tourists it was perfect, we could stay in a relatively cheap but good hotel in Greenwich, and access London very quickly. Thameslink brought us to London Bridge (connections and walking distance to Tower Bridge), to Blackfriars (connections and awesome view at night), and of course to St Pancras.
However, I can imagine the problems for commuters, when the trains slow down due to congestion... I found the service a bit slower than I had expected.
But it definitely beats what we have in Brussels at the current time (which is a suburbain railway network in development.... in sloooow development, like everything in Belgium)
I live near a small station outside of London which is only served by Thameslink trains. It is a weird experience taking these trains which are designed for London in a rural village.
Thank you RM for this detailed review. I would like to see GO Transit in Greater Toronto eventually use similar trains as those on Thameslink or the Elizabeth Line. This way the GO lines can be rerouted to better serve certain destinations, like the Kitchener line being rerouted to serve Pearson as you suggested. The GO lines should also be electrified like most of Thameslink and the Elizabeth line.
My friend from LA developed a new appreciation for transit when he and I visited London recently, the Elizabeth Line was pretty amazing.
This is kind of what I talked about in my EMU video. However, we would have low floor vehicles, of course!
The core of London is very wide (east west) but not very tall (north south), especially in the east. Which is I think why Thameslink feels like less of a metro service than the Elizabeth line. When I am in London it is incredibly useful. Usualy means I don't have to use the northernline when going north south from St'P.
Yeah I think that's it. Travel north on Thameslink and you're in the countryside before you know it. Most people are using it like any other suburban commuter rail service, but with a variety of disembarkation points, rather than just a big single terminus.
It may be a 24-hour service, but the frequency to even slightly remote locations is awful sometimes (once or twice an hour).
remote? Zone 3 London gets 2 tph in the evening on Thameslink... try going from Bellingham to Peckham Rye. Should take 10 mins but there are half hour gaps between the services
Watching this while sitting on a Thameslink train.
Thames Link makes me think of RER C/D lines in Paris, different infrastructures put together in a not orderly plan... leading to many problems downstream. Rebranding different services would make things more readable for starters.
Hey idk if you did a video on this before but in Nigeria’s biggest city Lagos they just completed their first rail mass transit line. Seems like a pretty interesting video idea since Lagos is one of the largest cities in the world
are you from lagos? If yes, do you know the frequency on that line?
No im not. It's a 27km length I think with 5or 6 stations and it will cary 500k passengers@@austriankangaroo
500k daily
I live on the ECML (between Peterborough and Hitchin) and getting put on the Thameslink network was great, but one of the disadvantages is that it's basically the only service provider on that stretch, and so the trains don't really feel designed with longer-distance travellers in mind (no armrests or tables, 'ironing board' seats, more standing room etc). I suppose that comes with the nature of the system, and I'm a big fan of it overall, but with the high frequency through the core and inner-suburban sections compared to the 2tph from my station I feel like some of the individual train capacity could've been traded for a bit more comfort.
Yeah apparently a lot of people preferred the old GN 365s which I unfortunately don't remember as I never went on a train for many years until they were scrapped. The desiros also have no charging sockets which is odd when even some short distance city buses have them now.
@@bangerbangerbro I have a few very vague memories of being on the 365s as a kid, but especially of the sound they made when starting up, it was very distinctive. And yeah the fact that sockets (and tables and even armrests!) are exclusive to the first-class section feels like an insult.
Thameslink is at least shorter distances, unlike SouthWest who put that sort of train on 2hr services to Bournemouth.
@@Boffin55 unfortunately not so some Thameslink services such as peterborough - horsham are 2hr+ long
I commute on Thameslink (now Great Northern) to just short of Cambridge, and I agree that the class 700 trains (in their fitout) are just not designed for those longer journeys. Lack of tray tables, power sockets, tables etc make it not the most pleasant train for 1hr+ journeys. Luckily when it shifted to Great Northern they replaced a lot of services with the older, but more comfortable, class 387s but there are still a few class 700s around.
Some parts of Thameslink on the different branches have quite good frequency (such as to Bedford and Brighton) - the number of trains per hour to Gatwick is similar as to Terminal 2/3 of Heathrow on the Elizabeth Line for example (around 4tph) although it's more irregular due to stopping patterns and capacity issues on the line to Brighton.
Thats if you don't include Southern and the overpriced express.
@@Mgameing123 yes, I was just trying to make a direct comparison between Thameslink and the Elizabeth line to/from Farringdon. Farringdon is now one of the major transport hubs in Central London. It was very useful for my sister she wanted to go to a concert in Brighton a couple of years ago. Gatwick is great for trains into Central London when Southern is operating normally. I have done a successful day trip into London using Gatwick.
I always use Thameslink when going to the UK. Super easy and convenient getting between London and Gatwick.
Great overview, it explains why I’ve never taken the Thameslink in my many trips to London. Now I’ll have to make an effort to take it on my next trip.
Thank you! And yes it surprisingly easy to miss it!
@@RMTransit Only appeared on London Tube maps recently
I think the oldest cross-city lines are the Argyle and North Clyde lines in Glasgow. They are actually older than even the Glasgow Subway, and one of them goes right the way across Scotland from Helensburgh on the West Coast, to Edinburgh almost on the East Coast.
The Glasgow mainline trains really deserve more attention. Everyone focuses on the Subway, with its long history and tiny trains, but the heavy rail network is really interesting and useful.
I remember the Strathclyde Partnership for Transit - it was an ugly brand, but it was consistent!
@@euanduthie2333not really a metro system though
@@euanduthie2333 It is sort of a shame that although Glasgow has an amazing suburban rail network and a metro, the transit system as a whole is very disintegrated 😔
I definitely need to do an Edinburgh video in the future
So nice to see my trains get covered. I couldn't agree more on better labelling the services. I'd have thought numbers for the south and letters for the north would be the cleanest solution - so when you're aiming north from London you're looking for a B service, and when you're heading south from London you're looking for a 1 or a 3 kinda thing. Else there's so many combinations that it'd get messy.
And someone at Gatwick could then more easily tell that both B and D are available, but that B is the fast service :)
Ahh the Thameslink, she ain't flashy, but she'll get you home. I'd love to see your thinking or possibly 'working' on making an east-west line through South London using existing lines! The problem with London, especially if you live in South London like me, is that you have to go all the way into the centre to come out again. Getting from South East London to South West London is a nightmare, BUT could this be fixed using existing lines, possibly using the Overground or creating a new Overground line? I'd love to see your thinking on it.
My main issue with Thameslink is that in the evening the train frequency sometimes decreases to once an hour. When it's cold and rainy at Finsbury Park and you want to get to East Croydon but don't want to lose your hearing from taking the Victoria line, it's not the nicest thing.
The Tram crosses a huge chunk of South London, from Beckenham to Wimbledon via Croydon, there are also services from West Croydon to Sutton and from Wimbledon to Richmond via Kingston.
@@mildlydispleased3221 it's pretty easy to pull up a map and see that South London is very poorly connected across itself. You always have to go into the city to get back out again and it's terribly inefficient. You can't even go from Brockley to Peckham despite a rail line running between them!
@@mildlydispleased3221 yeah, but Bromley (Change at beckenham is dooable) , but Grove Park/ Hither Green , Welling or Dartford become a right pain from Kingston avoiding Zone 1 London Bridge maze
@highpath4776 Outer Southeast London has a chronic phobia of trains, I had thr displeasure of spending my teenage years living in Bromley where everybody was too attached to their cars and half of the residents still thought they lived in Kent.
Brent Cross West station in North London is due to open on Sunday 10th December which will mostly be served by Thameslink and the new station is near to Brent Cross shopping centre and Northern Line station.
I wouldn't say that Brent Cross West is "near" the Northern Line station, quite a hike really!
Great explainer video! The Thameslink and the Lizzie' (Elizabeth) line are both common purposes in terms of their routes they serve, with the TL for north - south and the Lizzie line serves west - east. Very beneficial in terms of their upgrade on the TL programme, connecting two airports: Luton in the north and Gatwick in the south. Not to mention that it is the only rail operator to connect with every TFL brand service: The Overground, Tramlink, Underground and the Lizzie' line
The system I commute on daily (quite far out though)!
Good and comprehensive video on it.
Thanks for covering this line, have used it so many times
I've been waiting for this video forever! I love taking Thameslink and it's had such little attention compared to the Elizabeth line.
Great video as alway Reece. I agree it is an underrated line sometimes.
I live fairly close to one of the Thamelink branches (the one that loops through Wimbledon) but I've only taken it a few times because:
• Routing Croydon Tramlink into Platform 10 of Wimbledon and making Platform 9 by-directional has turned a fairly important interchange station into an unnecessary bottleneck for Thameslink and
• Having half the Wimbledon-bound trains run via Sutton means that they go into Travelcard zones that cost more money.
In the short term, I think there should be a fare easement for the Wiimbledon loop, where Thameslink fares are more similar to the "you can go anywhere on the network" fares of Croydon Tramlink, so that passengers can get the first train/fastest train.
In the long term, Croydon Tramlink needs to be moved out of Wimbledon Station and platforms 9 and 10 need to be set up so they can have the same sort of frequencies found in the Thameslink core.
I've been told there were plans to snip off the Wimbledon loop at Blackfriars and give the loop an increased number of trains per hour, that would allow for turn-up-and-go-travel. I'd rather have turn up and go travel, and change at Blackfriars, where it's warm, than be stuck at Haydon's Road for ages, in the middle of winter. So the NIMBYs who blocked the change to the Wimbledon loop need to be gotten out of the way.
It might even be worth taking the Wimbledon loop away from Thameslink, and passing it over to London Overground, given that the loop does not leave the Greater London area. Although it might be good for Thamelink trains to operate a Parliamentary service at weekends, to maintain route knowledge and to allow the Wiimbledon loop to be used to turn around Thameslink trains, so that you don't have the same cars pointing north all the time.
wasnt really NIMBYS, it was a demand for through services to Luton with a central core restriction that had the problem. If Signalling is not an issue adding a Overground service West Croydon-Sutton-Wimbledon-Streatham-London Bridge half hourly (replacing ? the Southern Peaks service ?) might be useful, with maybe a Southern Service West Croydon-Sutton-Wimbledon-Tooting-Balham (via the Tooting Common Curve-Victoria as well which could give overall a train in each direction at wimbledon every 10 mins , if 5min betwren trains can be done - or I suppose 3 in 15mins one way 3 in 15 mins the other
Can i just say when Thameslink was being created they had to close down the Widened Lines because they were preventing a platform extension at farringdon but the Widened Lines are similar to Thameslink in the sense that they could operate trains from morden up the Midland mainline aswell as others
While Elisabeth Line is often considered as the RER A of London, Thameslink could be the pendant of RER C (C like "clusterf*ck"). Messy service patterns on mostly century-old railway, which for whatever reason works.
Fascinating, great video!
Thameslink is pretty good (apart from the notorious "ironing board seats") and fairly reliable. Another cross city line that has potential is the Watford Junction to East Croydon which is just one train per hour. This route allows trains from the West Coast Main Line to bypass London city centre to Gatwick Airport and Brighton. Earlier this year I've found the Elizabeth Line - Thameslink interface at Farringdon very useful.
I love this line. I can go all the way from Finsbury Park (12 minutes away) to the south coast at Brighton where I lived as student over 50 years ago. It takes over twice as long as the fastest route but it's much more relaxing.
This is the only channel that will get me watching anything about London!
Do you hate London or something?
@@mildlydispleased3221 maybe they just aren't from London?
I have a love hate relationship with Thameslink. For many years it was my commute into Farringdon from Surrey. It was so much chaos for so many years whilst they redid the core section and the whole London Bridge rework (a massively impressive project - but soooo painful during construction). All those improvement just highlight other massive pinch points further south, mainly around East Croydon and the junctions to the north, the solution to which needs a PhD to understand! So arguably still incomplete.
It also suffers from the bizarre ‘not a terminus’ status of Farringdon, the fact that no one over 6 foot fits into the seats and the annoying service patterns to places like Redhill. The Wimbledon loop should also be made to terminate at Blackfriars and be turned over to TFL as a separate high frequency service.
But - all that said, it’s still one of the most useful lines in London, criminally overlooked by transport channels. So well done for getting to it RM!
I also think that the viaducts south of Blackfriars, as your train skips across the London rooftops, are some of the most fascinating urban stretches of train line in Europe at least!
Thanks for the great summary of the system. I remember when the thameslink was called thameslink 2000 and it really helped connected south london to central and north london. still one of the most vital connecitons and make it easier for use in rural south london to get on the tube
Thameslink was never called TL2K; that was the project to expand capacity on the central stretch and link it up to the Great Northern line, which was finally delivered 20 years late.
@@IndigoJo oh right thanks for letting me know
@@IndigoJo of course: it's England, par for the course
I used the Thameslink between St Pancras and Cricklewood where my hotel was and I must say it was a good, fast connection with good trains.
The main benefit of Thameslink - it lets you avoid tube in central London
Used Thameslink to get to and from Brighton in October. Was impressed with the service and the Class 700 trains. Rather envious of the really long trains.
Great video, I like to get my eyeballs on transit route maps and highlights on their connectivity
Not sure about the focus on "branding" or packaging of the service layouts. A local would soon memorize their daily route options anyway, you don't have to care about 9 branches when you live on one and work on one. And as a visitor/tourist, I just ask Google Maps and it tells me the options and I don't have to learn the service pattern (so long as there aren't labyrinthine interchanges or outages thwarting my travel plan)
The Thameslink seems similar to the early Metropolitan Railway (later became the Metropolitan line) that had many branches way out into the countryside (I believe the furthest station on that line at the time was 50 miles away from London)
The Thameslink is the same but runs right through the centre, it was designed to relieve pressure off the Northern line, and I believe between Kentish Town and Elephant & Castle, the Thameslink is the faster parallel route.
It currently is faster, because Kentish Town tube station is closed. However, normally, they take pretty much the same time despite the more direct route that Thameslink takes, with fewer intermediate stops and faster trains. Thameslink makes the Circle line look fast as it crawls across zone 1.
The Met line comparison is a good one - the Met built the cross London route in the 1860s so suburban services from the GN, Midland, and LCD could terminate at Moorgate without clogging up the Paddington - Moorgate tracks (and with a chord that saw some Cross-London passenger trains, but mostly freight).
The rebuild of London Bridge was really needed. It is drastically transformed from what it was now. Was a lot of disruption during the works, but it is so much nicer now.
Changing from Thameslink to Elizabeth at Farringdon is a pain (well with luggage , using lifts). Totally changed the area when the ground level Elizabeth Line station was built, the Thameslink / Metropolitan Line station was largely left unaffected.
For 3 years I got the Thameslink from East Croydon to Farringdon for university. It was a pretty good option all things considered. Definitely more function over comfort but that's what you need for peak hour in London.
The Thameslink programme actually started in the late 80s. BedPan trains started with the cheap electrification of the Midland Main Line down to Moorgate. Then the class 319 trains came along, along with the Thameslink branding through British Rail. This would start the cross city trains from Brighton to Bedford and from Guildford to Luton. Sutton loop trains still ran on EBP stock to Holborn Viaduct. When all of the 319s were delivered, more routes got cascaded to the Thameslink branding of Network SouthEast. Major improvements at the time meant the closure of Holborn Viaduct, opening of City Thameslink with the underground sidings and replacing/ displacing the old mouldy stock.
Are you aware of the Other Cross City railway Southern West London line that runs Watford Junction to East Croydon and started as a Rugby, Warwickshire on the West Midlands commuter rail to Gatwick Airport, West Sussex?
It got cut back in recent years but HS2 was supposed to free up some capacity to the north.
Do you think they would ever return it as a rugby -Gatwick service?
thameslink is very good linking up lots of places in london. only downside is bedford - brighton services getting extremely busy at peak hours
Yay! My regular Trainline getting the RMTransit treatment.
Glad to see Thameslink getting some appreciation! I work at London Bridge, and occasionally down on the south coast, so this line is absolutely wonderful. As much as I love the Elizabeth Line to Heathrow, I find using Thameslink to Gatwick a much quicker and easier experience.
I'll just mention The West London Line and Kensington Olympia, the Cinderella of the cross London lines. At one time long distance trains used to transit between the North and the South Coast on this line from the North West and West, but no longer do so. It was great to avoid the chaos on the tube and at North and South Terminal stations. Connections are possible but with a high number of changes.
I grew up in Croydon so I used Thameslink quite a lot in my teens and early adulthood. It was a great service, and I used it mostly when travelling to north London. It was much less complicated to get up and running in the first place than the Lizzie line (which was called Crossrail until it was rebranded prior to opening); essentially it involved upgrades to one tunnel between two already working rail systems, and the construction of a class of dual-voltage trains for middle distance rather than suburban operations. Thameslink carriages have never had long-distance appointments; they have the same seating arrangements as a lot of suburban rolling stock, such as the class 321 (which were built around the same time and served Essex and the stopping services via Northampton) and 456 (used on stopping trains in south London). There is another cross-London line that runs north to south, namely the West London line that runs from Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction and there are some trains that run onto the West Coast Main Line, not as many as there used to be though. Originally they ran from Gatwick up to Rugby, but the service has been tinkered with again and again and there's not much left of it now.
Back in the 80s under British Rail there were a few long distance trains taking the west London route between northern and southern destinations via Clapham and Willesden. The one I used was the one per day each way from Brighton to Manchester.
@@TonyNaggs In the 90s or early 2000s the line was electrified and now there are regular stopping trains along that line as well as the occasional Watford trains. Stupidly they have the current switch midway between Olympia and Willesden Junction rather than at one of the stations (or at a station at North Pole Road which would surely be viable) so the train has to make an extra stop.
Thameslink is totally underappreciated. It (as well as some of the non-TfL railways in south london) provide a crucial service for so many, connecting the city outside central london. Crossrail has so much fanfare but TL came first and arguably benefits even more people.
This is amazing. Givewell is an amazing organisation
Some stations could do with announcements, or staff talking to people, to get people waiting in the right places. Often at Blackfriars I see people who don't know the station wait where an 8 carriage train won't be when stops and they have to rush along the platform.
Good video but just need to point out that Peterborough TL trains go to Horsham. Cambridge TL trains are the ones that go to Brighton. You'd need to change at Hitchin to go from Peterborough to Brighton. I say this as someone who lives in Peterborough and travels the route often.
You'd be better off changing at St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, or (best of all, though I think you'd have to change platforms rather than the same-platform interchange at the others) East Croydon rather than Hitchin for Brighton as there's more trains to Brighton at those stations.
I was going to watch this video yesterday on the Thameslink train home, but it was cancelled (seriously).
Another good video but I have to say I moved to London shortly before the Elizabeth Line/Crossrail opened, and I never hear it called the Liz line.
As a South Londoner I have little need for Cross-Rail-Elizabeth Line but can use the Thameslink.
I'd actually say the best comparison is JR West's Shin-Kaisoku service or JR East's Ueno-Tokyo/Shonan-Shinjuku services. Long distance regional rail using upgraded legacy infrastructure. Liz Line is basically a London style RER.
Formally it's true but the illness of T-link is that its trains are not much suitable for long-distance journeys even if we take it as far-suburban trains
@@Whitebeard79outOfRus That's not the illness of Thameslink. The illness of thameslink the UK's service complexity addiction because they can't say no and make hard trade-offs in interlining. They need to become more like urban railways not less. Cafe cars are a rubbish use of limited rail space. Reliability, frequency and capacity are the priorities. That's why the JR East services I mentioned manage double the ridership despite a smaller network (esp in terms of quadtrack sections).
@@matthewjohnbornholt648 Thameslink's inability to say no issue is almost all about 'London wants to keep the urban rail elements' demands. Elephant needed to go for reliability, frequency and capacity, turning the line into a mostly (it's a bit harder to ditch the Cricklewood type stops than the Wimbledon network) outer suburban network. Thameslink needs to be more an outer suburban railway, and less an urban one, to get the most out of the infrastructure.
Especially as it is really not good at the urban railwaying - it makes the SSLs look fast as it crawls through Zone 1. The tube, when there's direct trains (save vs the Circle line via Aldgate) is comparably quick for urban journeys, despite tube lines travelling much more roundabout routes and stopping more to boot: West Hampstead - London Bridge, Kentish Town - Elephant & Castle, and even Wimbledon - Blackfriars it's not worth taking Thameslink unless the train is just about to pull into the station!
I doubt Whitebeard was talking about cafe cars (not least as there's very very few in the UK - even on Intercity trains), but wanting the 700s to look more like a 387 than a 345 - more seats, less standees, tables, etc. The biggest thing is probably having seats that you can comfortably sit on for more than half-an-hour, given journey times from London to the extremities of the network well exceed that.
So will you make a video on the Stockholm commuter rail now? You can also include Roslagsbanan, Saltsjöbanan and Mälartåg
I will. I need to get footage together though.
I used to work in Farringdon and live in South-East London, my friend also worked in Farringdon but commuted from Brighton and it's kind of cool that we could get the same train home together - serving both the inner city and much beyond in one go.
I really think more could be made about Thameslink! I travel on it for my commute but i feel like it is under used / under marketed as an option within Zone 1
It just doesn't make sense for people inside of zone 3 really (normally). I've lived in london for over 2 years now and have been around quite a bit. I've only use Thameslink for convenience within zone 3 a couple times.
There's a Thameslink station where I live, and even if I set google maps to pick me up exactly at the station and drop me off at the nearest Thameslink station to my destination, it's still almost always faster to just tube it.
Compared to the Elizabeth line, which although was not any quicker than the central line from Stratford, I still took it frequently.
Try visiting Farringdon soon after 5pm on a working day and see whether it's underused or not.
Are you going to come to Sydney for the opening of the city section of the new Metro line Reece? I saw that Francis Bourgeois is in Sydney filming on the metro. To get you and Geoff Marshall in Australia would be like having the holy trinity of transit here.
I’d like to, but it’s extremely expensive!
Yeah ot really bugs me how differently and how many northern and southern branches are. It could be simplified (on the southern branches) since all have parallel running other services to take over all on specific ones, ie.: Wimbledon loop, thus run higher frequency on them and reduce the amout and complexity of the network...
They rebuilt Blackfriars with the intent of using to the terminating platforms for serving the Wimbledon loop, but the MP for the area didn't like the idea of having to transfer. So now the 2 terminating platforms that they spent so much widening the bridge for see at most 2 southern trains per hour.
Very perceptive analysis! You are right to comment on the difference between the flying junction at the north end of the 'core' route and the south end flat junction (by Blackfriars): I have never seen a justification for this latter - probably it was the cost - but it is a miracle that it copes with the number of trains. Maybe modern signalling is the secret - the triangle of flat junctions on the Underground around Aldgate manages - just about - to cope with similar levels, though the trains are shorter. Are lessons to be learned from the Chicago El?
Your contrast between the simplicity of the 'Liz' line and the complexity of Thameslink is well taken; I think the Liz line model is winning, and may end up quite soon with extension of the trains which currently terminate (from the east) at Paddington, to satisy the demand for travel on the western branches. The Thameslink 'idea' is based around a rag-bag of half-hourly services which combine to give a high frequency only on the core (Black-friars-St Pancras). This is taken from the standard model for suburban main-line trains around London, which has led to growth in car ownership and use, particularly for peripheral travel (most people who live in outer London travel a lot - maybe mostly - to other suburban centres rather than to central London).
The contrast between mainline rail and the Underground is stark - if you live at say Ickenham or Oakwood (on the tube) you are served at least every 7/8 minutes; people in Tolworth or Palmers Green only every 30 minutes. Luckier places get trains every 15 minutes - but you usually find this is two half-hourly services with different stopping patterns!
I think Thameslink could be improved by having fewer branches, particularly in the south - but more of the London terminals need cross-centre connections: that doesn't have to be as costly as the Elizabeth line, but the aim should be to have a simpler network, with more frequent trains, and good quality transfers - as you have been saying for ages!
The jubilee line wasn’t opened on the Queens jubilee year as well I’m pretty sure
Thameslink = GTR - Govia Thameslink Railway
GTR owns Southern, Gatwick Express, Thameslink, Great Northern and used to own Southeastern.
Hmm but Thameslink is like (RER) ligne C. A collection of railways that converge through a central core. For example on the RER ligne C you can board at one station in Versailles and travel round a loop to pass through the other one. Like Thameslink (RER) line C was a collection of separate historical railway lines connected in central core and spreading some distance from the centre of Paris. Whilst RER ligne A behaves more like the Elizabeth Line.
PS it pronounced Peterborough [Peat-a-burrah]
7:26 the Elisabeth Line doesn't have enough doors to feel "metro like"!
Even the S-Bahn in Cologne has a tighter door spacing!
The cars on the Liz are very long, so they should have 4 doors per side. I wonder why you never mention that
1:05: It should be noted on that map that Thameslink no longer serves Littlehampton, because that service was curtailed at London Bridge and transferred to Southern
It should also be noted that there are no Brighton to Peterborough trains, because Peterbrough trains instead go to Horsham.
Also, the map says it serves Ashford int ', but it doesn't
I think you got that one backwards, the RER is signficantly more branched than many s bahn systems
can you make a video about the stockholm pendeltåg aka cross city?
If I can get some footage, yes!
City Thameslink station is not too far to walk to St Pauls ( or Chancery Lane ) Central Line Stations.
DfT has a lot to answer for when it comes to the tendering/spec of the interior of these trains. Painful seats, no leg room, soul-less design. Basically RyanAir of the trains
I am not sure where there needs to be a comparison between Thameslink and Elizabeth Line. Thameslink, Elizabeth Line and the London Underground perform different tasks yet they compliment each other through 'transfer hub' stations.
How about doing a video on the proposed Crossrail 2?
Eventually, I’m sure I will😅
It is interesting how well Thameslink performs in spite of its complexity; the timetable design (introduced in May 2018) is very good at absorbing smallish delays on one side of London without affecting the other side of London, without padding out journey times excessively. Most of the network performs better than it did historically because of the care and quality put into designing the timetable in the first place, even though many people said it was too complex to work reliably.
I don’t know. It still takes 4ever to get down to the Elizabeth line platforms. Now that the novelty has worn off, and the trains are chock full at peak times - is it really worth the trek to use it as part of a short journey in the city?
The branches don’t really need more tph since they have additional from the main operators on the branches that either run express, local or the same stopping pattern. For instance, Southern on the Brighton Mainline and Great Northern on the East Coast Mainline. They do fall under the TSGN franchise though. On the Rainham route theres additional Southeastern service same as the future Ashford route. It’s only on the midland mainline Thameslink run the local and semi express services by themselves for the majority.
As far as I'm aware Great Northern doesn't run to Peterborough though (except an hourly semi-fast service at peak times), so ECML stations north of Hitchin only get the two Thameslink trains an hour; there's no other local/stopping operator on that section.
@@tomwatts703 Yes that is correct, TL took over most of the GN mainline stopping patterns except Kings Lynn. Peterborough does get a GN Kings Cross express though during peak hours which calls at Stevenage, Biggleswade, St Neots, Huntingdon and Peterborough. This stopping pattern has sometimes changed, but this is the one I currently see.
The rolling stock was built for another time I think. No four-seater tables and only some of the trains have seat-back tables mean they’re horribly sparse for what should be exciting journeys to the seaside or airport.
Thameslink is just magic; and Blackfriars is such an interesting station, with entrances on both sides of the Thames.
Also; as others have mentioned, it serves two airports LTN/Luton and LGW/Gatwick. Frankly with Thameslink, I don't understand why people take the Gatwick Express.
I suppose it's the branding aspect and perceived convenience. Similar to Heathrow Express, which now has far less use with the Elizabeth Line providing direct connections to the West End, City, Canary Wharf, and even Thameslink services by changing at Farringdon!
Reece you have well presented that TL is an incremental growth not a Grand Project. Snow Hill "abandoned for years" and "a lot of work" needs clarifying. The 1980s were a poverty decade for public transit in the UK. The Midland suburban service had reached the end of useful life and finally received investment in modernisation and electrification. Usage soared and so consideration was given to joining the north AC wire and south DC rail, a first dual supply service. The Snow Hill line had carried through London freight until the 1970s so the abandonment period of 'only' 15 years created a low cost reopening opportunity. All the Victorian infrastructure remained in place for reuse including the Ludgate Hill overbridge obscuring processional views of St Pauls. The later incorporation of the reopened TL line from Bedford to Brighton into a more ambitious expanded TL2000 network had the large costs of burying the central link into a trench and redeveloping the area, the Snow Hill 'tunnel' is north of Ludgate, south it was a viaduct.
The Thameslink Desiros are quite nice I guess but the seats aren't known for being that great (apparently they are a lot worse than the old great northern class 365s that they largely displaced, which I have been on but not since I was very young so can't remember) and for some reason they have no power sockets of any kind which is odd considering how new they are. They are definitely seem a lot like metro trains when compared with most of the train they are seen side by side with on most of the further out places on their route. They accelerate very nice and fast though and are very shiny and modern.
Weren't the seats chosen by some committee of the DfT? The ministry's excuse is they are designed for safety 🙄
@@ballyhigh11 the real reason the DFT will never admit is they were the cheapest seats available
@@james123212 They certainly feel like they are!
@@ballyhigh11 I mean I don't mind them but that is probably because I don't remember what they replaced very well. I think they are just supposed to take up less room? But don't the desiros store only roughly the same amount of people as what they replaced with more carriages? I can't remember where I read that.
I actually don't mind the Thameslink seats. They're vastly nicer than the GWR intercity trains! Those seats are so unpleasant that I find it more comfortable to sit on the floor!
what if the Thames had a link
I love how we can see Reece at min 7:04
Also Thameslink has probably the best station in the world.. Blackfriars.
I love that this is literally the opposite of a paid brand deal
Thameslink is like a crossrail in way it go through london but it go overground non T.F.L trains.
BTW: Your map is wrong, Thameslink doesn't go to Ashford international, this was a plan before southeastern put an hourly Maidstone east fast service
TfL should really consider taking over running Thameslink and integrate it into Crossrail as another line.
The Mayor has asked to do so but the government has said no.
You risk that that would mean that those far off branches are no longer served, like when the Metropolitan Railway was taken over, it was one of the reasons the stations into the countryside not only lost their services into the centre, but sometimes all trains altogether. For the likes of Brighton, Sevenoaks, Rainham, Peterborough etc, it would definitely be a downgrade to have to change trains again in one of the London terminals.
Would it then be renamed to Charles line?
personally for me the fact that thameslink covers routes that span a lot more than London is an instant no no for having TFL control it, additionally it would cause alot of operational issues as both train crew and the class 700s are used operate other TSGN services (especially prevalent on routes like london - cambridge) and even if you pulled the shorter distance services like st albans/luton - sutton you would still have to split the 700 fleet between 2 operators which would reduce operational flexibility.
I have to agree that TfL taking over Thameslink would be a bad idea, outside the core+suburban sections Thameslink is basically regional rail for a lot of places, especially the Peterborough-Hitchin section which gets no service from other operators.
8:03 why does he think the seating layout is worse?
I guess you could say the seating layout like a number of other aspects of the class 700s interior is a compromise, the seats themselves are incredibly cheap and uncomfortable for most people they're 2+2 with a mixture of airline and facing seats but are bunched up quite a bit to allow for more standing room, seat have no armrests, power sockets are only fitted in first class and there are no tables apart from the tray tables fitted to the later built units following complaints.
When all combined they're more aimed towards the high passenger loadings within london and the TL core at the expense of being rather unsuited for the longer distance journeys particularly considering some TL services are almost 3 hours long
Thameslink would carry more people and is more useful than crossrail.
It just has less publicity and I suppose “glamour” because it was cheaper to realise and wasn’t built in a tunnel.
Commuter rail serving Peterborough and Cambridge? Is this London or Toronto? 😆
Haha I didn't get it until I looked at a map.
01:05 just a quick note re the map of the Thameslink routes. Thameslink never made it as far as Ashford and to my knowledge there aren't any further plans to do so although services have made it to Maidstone. Also worth noting that the line to East Grinstead only sees Thameslink services in peak times (8 in the morning and 6 in the evening). This was the same with the branch to Littlehampton although services have now ceased serving that route entirely.
There are plans that are quite far along for them to start service to Ashford in 2024...
They haven't reached Maidstone. They have Cannon Street to Maidstone trains fulfilling that role.
@@sihollett ah apologies you're right, they go as far east as Rainham and Sevenoaks.
@@thedumgamer2046 What source did you get this from? Everything I can see suggests that it isn't going ahead, with an hourly Southeastern service taking the path previously for Thameslink trains for over a year now.