Roughly 14 minutes discussing and debating the decision to leave or kill the past Simon, this is what I come to watch SOMA playthroughs for. Excellent stuff my dude.
I think my take on the whole discussion about whether to leave the original Simon alive or not would be that this goes back to the whole thing about people committing suicide after having been copied to the ark. The argument was that for a short moment after the copy, both copies are practically the same and it's only then that the two identical copies would start to diverge due to differing experiences. So if the decision to kill the previous version of Simon or not was made quickly after he wakes up in the new body, he could probably still make a pretty good judgement whether that's something the old Simon would have wanted or not. He IS the old Simon for all intents and purposes, so if he thinks "Yeah, I'd rather not wake up and find out that I was left behind", then it would be morally justifiable to drain the battery and spare him the experience because it's almost like you're not doing it to another person but yourself. I hope that makes any sense.
SPOILER BELOW (in case lil reads your comment) The problem I see with this is that perspective makes a immediate difference between the copies. Simon2 was robbed of his opportunity to react to losing the coin toss, so we don't really know what his perspective would've been, only that Simon3 (from his winning perspective) thought it was the best thing to do. But we know that the moment Simon3 lost the coin toss at the end of the game, he immediately dettached himself from Simon4. "...those fuckers living it large on a space ship! They're NOT US!" So going by this, one can argue that Simon2 wouldn't have simply accepted his death.
Oops just said this in a different comment, but in my opinion you are 1000% right that how you react to the continuity section informs how you react to this section. From a writing perspective, I admire that so much, because you aren’t just confronted with this philosophical problem…you’re primed for it, without being told how to feel.
I understand this line of reasoning, but I think I disagree. The two Simons we see here are never the same. As soon as one wakes up and realizes he's stuck in his old body and the other wakes up to realize he's not alone, they are two different entities with different thoughts on the situation. They are not the same. They may be very similar, but their perspectives (especially in this situation) are completely different. Simon 3 (power-suit Simon) may think it would be better for Simon 2 to never wake up, but he isn't actually in the position to know how Simon 2 would answer. But to be fair, I never really understood the continuity idea. To me it seems that the moment a copy is made, its experience diverges from that of the original.
Roman senator Cato the Elder was an ardent supporter of starting another (third Punic one) war with Carthage, and was ending every his speech with 'Carthago delenda est' - "Carthage must be destroyed". Julia Dahl probably uses this as a sad joke. This game presents you multiple choices "to kill or no" in order to make you (as a player, not as a character) ponder "what is life". Kinda unique 4th wall breaking IMO.
This is easily my favorite choice in the game, I’ve been waiting so long for it lol Killing “Simon” is an easy yes for me. There’s the obvious: he will wake up alone and assume he’s been abandoned by his only friend, he’s locked in a room without an Omni-tool to get out, and even if he does get out all that is waiting for him is a monster. But also, this choice is unique from others like Robin because you ARE Simon. Robin is a little more grey because there’s always the possibility that she would prefer to exist how she was, even if she was aware of the reality of her situation - that she would choose any form of existence over death, no matter what. However, I know that I wouldn’t want to live as Simon. I know that, given the option for a peaceful and unknowing end, I would want it. Therefore, the sleeping Simon would want it, because he is me Another touch I really love: when new Simon first wakes and hears old Simon speak, he says asks Cath “Why was it still talking?” It’s only the second time that he asks that he says “Why was HE still talking?” I love that minor change so much
I think this moment might be my favorite in the entire game. Hilariously, perfectly, i also come to a different conclusion than you, though i can totally see (and weigh differently, occasionally) almost all of what you typed here. And that is the best sign that this is an incredible moment in the game.
@ when combined with the ride on the climber down it was easily my favorite moment on my first playthrough. The scene with the swap and the choice are great already, but the climber adds so much. The dialogue that you get if you kill other Simon (as I did) is stellar. He laments that what they did and wonders what happens when he dies, as other Simon did. Whether there’s room in heaven for him, or if it’s already full of redundant copies who will just call him an imposter if he gets there at all. Then Cath’s speech is just absolutely beautiful, along with the music and ending with the momentary dread of the climber stopping, but immediately eased by all the pretty luminescent creatures floating past. It’s one of my favorite and most memorable sequences in all of gaming, hit me like a freight train when I played it for the first time
I mostly agree, but I think there is a slight problem with this line of reasoning. You ARE NOT that Simon. You're very similar, but you're a version of Simon that woke up in the new suit and got an explanation from Cath. The original Simon would wake up alone and make the decision with a whole other set of emotions and available information. You can't know what he would do. You can make an educated hypothetical guess. But you can't know.
This part always irritated me. I understood what was happening. Simon was being copied. You copy a computer file, the old fild doesn't get deleted unless you actively do it. I was on board with Catherine being frustrated that Simon struggled to understand how it worked. His nature as a data file didn't change just because he was a human brain scan.
It's interesting to see how many people are frustrated with Simon. After all, he is a random 2015 guy in Toronto with brain damage. He goes in for a brain scan one day and wakes up immediately after (as far as this new Simon is concerned) in such a strange place in the future. I empathize with him. He may not understand how it's a copy considering that Catherine omits the truth strategically.
this is easy to see as an outsider calmly reacting to all the info presented. Simons concious and subconcious is actively at war with eachother trying to preserve his humanity and come to terms with the new reality. He doesnt think of himself as a computer file, that is the exact issue.
The scenario in the game is interesting. But in the real world, there are always more than two options. For example, forcing Cath to find a solution for both if she wants to reach the Ark. Or leaving Cath with the Omnitool there and finding another way on his own, etc… That’s why I find the Trolley Problem pointless. It works only as a thought experiment, but not for the real world. Still, it’s well done how the game makes you think. And an interesting choice from you! I can really empathize with this decision.
While I appreciate the time and thought you put into the moral decision at the end of the episodes: personally, I fall on the other side. For Simon 2(if S1 was the flesh and blood Simon in Toronto and S3 is the Simon you’re playing as at the end of the episode), we already know what outcome he wanted, he wanted cut & paste/direct transfer into S3. Now, was his want based on an incorrect assumption of how the process worked? Yes on a literal level but not on a functional one. Cut and paste still requires a “cut”. If S3 decides to “cut” S2 after the transfer, he’s still giving S2 exactly what he wanted and thought he was getting, just on a momentary delay: go to sleep in body 2, wake up in body 3, body two never wakes up again. Now he doesn’t get what he wanted (waking up again in body 2), and he’s doing so with no one to explain to him why or how or what to do. I don’t think you made the “wrong” decision, it’s a famous philosophical quandary for a reason, but, at least in the specific iteration, I come down on the opposite side.
I love your comment and I highlyyyyyyy disagree that we would be giving S2 what he wants. I think killing S2 here could be “right,” but I think it is not an extension of what S2 wanted before this moment; that said, I think the player’s decision in this part of the game is meant to be informed by their reaction to the “continuity” peeps earlier in the game-if that idea is wild to them, killing S2 loses viability. It not, it gains viability. That’s my interpretation of what the writers were going for, anyways 🤷♂️
I don't think he was of the belief that a "cut" would be required to leave only 1 Simon. He wanted 1 Simon in the new suit with no death. Was that possible? No. But that's what he thought he was getting.
I think I would try to wait so I could interact with the 'old simon,' or tried to set up an escape for him and clues/notes...maybe plug Cath back in (and deff apologize) and see if she can maybe lock down a safe path out. I'd personally be content with spending the rest of my (days?) walking on the ocean floor or maybe try to walk back to land to see the surface; That kind of body could help if anybody survived. ps: I think Simon is vaguely working towards hopping on the Ark, so he'd end up doing this scenario again if he doesn't think things through.
I've been enjoying this playthrough so much! You've brought a lot of new perspective on certain aspects of this game, and it's gotten me to think a bit more about this game that I love. Really appreciate the videos!
I was really looking forward to this episode, and it didn't disappoint :) There are a couple of other moments I can't wait to see you experience and talk through, the philosophising is so interesting.
I chose to drain Simon1's battery bc how does a robot even end their own life? Does he just pull out his cortex chip? Does he know exactly where the cortex chip is? If he did would he even be able to access it inside his suit? If not, is there any alternative means of calling it quits? He's completely unfamiliar with his body and the environment around him, and I don't think he would have any idea how to end his own existence, and he wouldn't have Catherine to tell him how because she left with Simon2. So he would essentially be locked in that room with no way out, all alone, forever. Or until the WAU takes him. Can't imagine a worse fate.
This entire game is the transporter dilemma since in star trek you are not teleported from one place to another you are recorded and destroyed in one place and reconstructed in another. They do not destroy the first pattern until the second one is constructed but they took that choice and knowledge from their day to day life and choices but its how it works and people that have a problem with it are considered backwards and illogical in world which is hilarious.
It would bother me that the other Simon is going to think what you suspected when he wakes up… that Catherine took the suit and left him. I suppose he may figure it out if he thinks about it long enough.
Haha, I love the idea of WAU pickling humans to preserve them. As messed up as it is, I think that was a great analogy! 45:43 Also, this would be a good post for r/WatchPeopleDieInside
Another interesting angle to think about is if the body swap was a consciousness transfer and not a copy, you'd have no moral consideration for the old body being dead. So what exactly is the difference here? As the game previously mentions, for a brief moment you and your copy are the same person. So even if the original wasn't doomed being left behind, killing them wouldn't be morally wrong because that is what you had originally decided to have happen when you thought it was just a tranfer.
I killed the other Simon. In one way, it just felt like the right thing to do. Another way, in a I guess selfish way, it felt easier to move one with my (simons) life, if he is dead, like a loose thread that needed to be taken care of. Like a old shell you needed to discard after moving to a new one, if you were a snail for example. Or a snake shedding its old skin. Those arent 1 to 1 comperisons, but hopefully you get what I mean.
I agree with what you said but only if the 'original' clone was another person, but i believe it to still be me/simon. If it were another person then i would think to give them the chance to make the decision themselves but i know that the 'original' has the same mindset as me, it has only been a few moments since the separation of experiences and like I know exactly what I would do and how i would feel so I wouldn't want to put that me in the situation. I know there is no way out and that i wouldn't want to wake up knowing that I have been abandoned there so i would just end it instead of allowing that original me to have to go through it.
Although I would've taken the option to kill/power down the previous Simon (by reasons others already mentioned), in your place I would've at least left a note explaining the situation 😅
With the crying woman, all you need to do is be quiet. Any noise starts to alert her, then stop moving and be quiet, and her alertness goes down. You can walk right up to her and grab the power pack on the wall if you take it slow and steady. Looking at her is safe, the only one you couldn’t look at is the one with the lights all over its head inside the sunken ship Also, a lot of the bodies throughout Omicron move around while you’re on other floors. Not just the WAU cyborgs, but also the headless human bodies ::)
Episode ending discussion Cath is definitely at fault for saying nothing. If Simon is one continuous identity, then blindsiding him with having to end himself is needlessly distressing. If the two Simons are separate, the previous one deserves to know his task is complete and participate in how he dies. This scenario is entirely Cath wanting to control Simon’s response by withholding information until after the point of no return.
Counter argument: Simon is unstable and impulsive. Telling him "We will copy your mind, so you stay as you are and a copy of yourself (which will feel like a direct continuation) will proceed. You will stay behind and have to be on your own" would leave the potential of Simon rejecting to help her - help Humanity on the ark and die with the rest of humanity instead. This way the old simon we played for most of the game thinks he is transferred - and then dies. Without stress, no fear. If you had the choice of: Dying in your sleep not knowing it will come, thinking you'll wake up tomorrow as always - or knowing someone else will continue to live your life, you're left behind and either die on your own or maybe don't wake up. What choice would you make? The illusion of a choice? In both cases Simon will die - this world has nothing left to live for, especially not if the only purpose he had left was now fullfilled by his new copy. Also Simon should have known. He found his own records of his human self that continued to live for another month - he should have known at THAT point that he is a copy and that the transfer is always just Copy-Paste and not Cut-Paste. He should have asked catherine "Will it be like the old simon? My mind being copied, stuck into a machine while "I" continue to be as i am?" but he didn't. He had all the possible knowledge to know better - he just decided not to think about it.
True, but I also kind of understand her decision. Judging by his character and previous reactions, Simon probably wouldn't have done the "switching bodies" thing if he knew all the implications. When talking about his former self knowing about him back at Theta, Catherine even says "judging by your previous reactions, I'd assume he'd be pretty upset". Catherine's highest goal is ultimately getting the ARK to space, and I assume she'd rather tell half-truths or even straight up lies (coin toss wink wink) than risking Simon not playing along. I think she ultimately came to the decision that the unavoidable fallout after the scan would be better than the outcome if she told him directly before the scan. And even if she didn't, she is described as shy and introverted in the game, so I can understand if she didn't have the courage to tell him and went the easier way. Having said that, she is still at fault of course.
@@Blubbpaule I already said I was in favor of Simon choosing how he dies. My point is the dilemma in the game is only a horrible one because of Cath. Cath willingly takes away both Simon’s agency because she doesn’t trust (or doesn’t value) his decisions. And I’d argue Simon is merely emotional, not unstable. At every turn he’s only done what was necessary, and humanizes every AI he’s come across. At the final moment he chooses to adapt like with the diving suit reveal, the Ark reveal, him being a robot AI, etc. Cath’s hand is not being forced, she is choosing to manipulate.
I also feel like it's one of those moments akin to why things like 'horse' and 'cat' weren't defined in early dictionaries because ... well, why the fuck would you ever need to look up what a horse or cat are? You should know that stuff already. Whenever Catherine is asked to explain, most anything, she fumbles her words and either dumbs it down to a point its only half-correct or she just goes 'just do the thing, ok?'. Perhaps not from a point of manipulation but from a genuine inability to explain how 'her world' works because she's never had to explain what a 'cat' was to someone, for lack of a better metaphor.
@@CoolDude374-oe8di this only makes me wonder how little she must think of the humans onboard Ark. She’s already shown no qualms about creating and destroying AI for her own ambitions. It’s pretty hard to believe she actually cares about Ark for the reasons she states, based on how she treats Simon alone.
The thing I love about the choice you are made to make at this point in the game is that, the copy is YOU. In a sense, that makes it the easiest choice in the game, if you think about it a certain way, because you never have to worry about the question of doing something the other person might not want. That is, because it's YOU sitting in that chair, you KNOW that no matter what you choose, they would have chosen the exact same thing given the option to do so. (Sorry if I'm rambling... I promise that all made sense in my head. haha)
Roughly 14 minutes discussing and debating the decision to leave or kill the past Simon, this is what I come to watch SOMA playthroughs for. Excellent stuff my dude.
Maybe the real treasure was the friends we took off life-support along the way. 🤔
I think my take on the whole discussion about whether to leave the original Simon alive or not would be that this goes back to the whole thing about people committing suicide after having been copied to the ark. The argument was that for a short moment after the copy, both copies are practically the same and it's only then that the two identical copies would start to diverge due to differing experiences. So if the decision to kill the previous version of Simon or not was made quickly after he wakes up in the new body, he could probably still make a pretty good judgement whether that's something the old Simon would have wanted or not. He IS the old Simon for all intents and purposes, so if he thinks "Yeah, I'd rather not wake up and find out that I was left behind", then it would be morally justifiable to drain the battery and spare him the experience because it's almost like you're not doing it to another person but yourself.
I hope that makes any sense.
SPOILER BELOW (in case lil reads your comment)
The problem I see with this is that perspective makes a immediate difference between the copies. Simon2 was robbed of his opportunity to react to losing the coin toss, so we don't really know what his perspective would've been, only that Simon3 (from his winning perspective) thought it was the best thing to do. But we know that the moment Simon3 lost the coin toss at the end of the game, he immediately dettached himself from Simon4. "...those fuckers living it large on a space ship! They're NOT US!" So going by this, one can argue that Simon2 wouldn't have simply accepted his death.
Oops just said this in a different comment, but in my opinion you are 1000% right that how you react to the continuity section informs how you react to this section. From a writing perspective, I admire that so much, because you aren’t just confronted with this philosophical problem…you’re primed for it, without being told how to feel.
I understand this line of reasoning, but I think I disagree. The two Simons we see here are never the same. As soon as one wakes up and realizes he's stuck in his old body and the other wakes up to realize he's not alone, they are two different entities with different thoughts on the situation. They are not the same. They may be very similar, but their perspectives (especially in this situation) are completely different. Simon 3 (power-suit Simon) may think it would be better for Simon 2 to never wake up, but he isn't actually in the position to know how Simon 2 would answer. But to be fair, I never really understood the continuity idea. To me it seems that the moment a copy is made, its experience diverges from that of the original.
"I changed my mind" would be such a great title for this episode.
"Hell is being aware of your brain and how it is missleading you" I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Alan Wake series.
Roman senator Cato the Elder was an ardent supporter of starting another (third Punic one) war with Carthage, and was ending every his speech with 'Carthago delenda est' - "Carthage must be destroyed". Julia Dahl probably uses this as a sad joke.
This game presents you multiple choices "to kill or no" in order to make you (as a player, not as a character) ponder "what is life". Kinda unique 4th wall breaking IMO.
This is easily my favorite choice in the game, I’ve been waiting so long for it lol
Killing “Simon” is an easy yes for me. There’s the obvious: he will wake up alone and assume he’s been abandoned by his only friend, he’s locked in a room without an Omni-tool to get out, and even if he does get out all that is waiting for him is a monster. But also, this choice is unique from others like Robin because you ARE Simon. Robin is a little more grey because there’s always the possibility that she would prefer to exist how she was, even if she was aware of the reality of her situation - that she would choose any form of existence over death, no matter what. However, I know that I wouldn’t want to live as Simon. I know that, given the option for a peaceful and unknowing end, I would want it. Therefore, the sleeping Simon would want it, because he is me
Another touch I really love: when new Simon first wakes and hears old Simon speak, he says asks Cath “Why was it still talking?” It’s only the second time that he asks that he says “Why was HE still talking?” I love that minor change so much
I think this moment might be my favorite in the entire game. Hilariously, perfectly, i also come to a different conclusion than you, though i can totally see (and weigh differently, occasionally) almost all of what you typed here. And that is the best sign that this is an incredible moment in the game.
@ when combined with the ride on the climber down it was easily my favorite moment on my first playthrough. The scene with the swap and the choice are great already, but the climber adds so much. The dialogue that you get if you kill other Simon (as I did) is stellar. He laments that what they did and wonders what happens when he dies, as other Simon did. Whether there’s room in heaven for him, or if it’s already full of redundant copies who will just call him an imposter if he gets there at all. Then Cath’s speech is just absolutely beautiful, along with the music and ending with the momentary dread of the climber stopping, but immediately eased by all the pretty luminescent creatures floating past. It’s one of my favorite and most memorable sequences in all of gaming, hit me like a freight train when I played it for the first time
I mostly agree, but I think there is a slight problem with this line of reasoning. You ARE NOT that Simon. You're very similar, but you're a version of Simon that woke up in the new suit and got an explanation from Cath. The original Simon would wake up alone and make the decision with a whole other set of emotions and available information. You can't know what he would do. You can make an educated hypothetical guess. But you can't know.
Oh how i have waited for this episode 😏
Saaaaaame.
This part always irritated me. I understood what was happening. Simon was being copied. You copy a computer file, the old fild doesn't get deleted unless you actively do it. I was on board with Catherine being frustrated that Simon struggled to understand how it worked. His nature as a data file didn't change just because he was a human brain scan.
It's interesting to see how many people are frustrated with Simon. After all, he is a random 2015 guy in Toronto with brain damage. He goes in for a brain scan one day and wakes up immediately after (as far as this new Simon is concerned) in such a strange place in the future. I empathize with him. He may not understand how it's a copy considering that Catherine omits the truth strategically.
this is easy to see as an outsider calmly reacting to all the info presented. Simons concious and subconcious is actively at war with eachother trying to preserve his humanity and come to terms with the new reality. He doesnt think of himself as a computer file, that is the exact issue.
The scenario in the game is interesting. But in the real world, there are always more than two options. For example, forcing Cath to find a solution for both if she wants to reach the Ark. Or leaving Cath with the Omnitool there and finding another way on his own, etc… That’s why I find the Trolley Problem pointless. It works only as a thought experiment, but not for the real world. Still, it’s well done how the game makes you think. And an interesting choice from you! I can really empathize with this decision.
While I appreciate the time and thought you put into the moral decision at the end of the episodes: personally, I fall on the other side.
For Simon 2(if S1 was the flesh and blood Simon in Toronto and S3 is the Simon you’re playing as at the end of the episode), we already know what outcome he wanted, he wanted cut & paste/direct transfer into S3.
Now, was his want based on an incorrect assumption of how the process worked? Yes on a literal level but not on a functional one.
Cut and paste still requires a “cut”. If S3 decides to “cut” S2 after the transfer, he’s still giving S2 exactly what he wanted and thought he was getting, just on a momentary delay: go to sleep in body 2, wake up in body 3, body two never wakes up again.
Now he doesn’t get what he wanted (waking up again in body 2), and he’s doing so with no one to explain to him why or how or what to do.
I don’t think you made the “wrong” decision, it’s a famous philosophical quandary for a reason, but, at least in the specific iteration, I come down on the opposite side.
i think whatever decision you make is the "right" one. After all you are simon, whatever you choose is what simon wants.
I love your comment and I highlyyyyyyy disagree that we would be giving S2 what he wants. I think killing S2 here could be “right,” but I think it is not an extension of what S2 wanted before this moment; that said, I think the player’s decision in this part of the game is meant to be informed by their reaction to the “continuity” peeps earlier in the game-if that idea is wild to them, killing S2 loses viability. It not, it gains viability.
That’s my interpretation of what the writers were going for, anyways 🤷♂️
Can’t stop thinking about this comment, now I’m waffling on whether or not killing S2 COULD be considered an extension of what he wanted. Fuck.
@ that’s part of what makes it so effective of an existential quandary, lol. There are so many angles to consider it from. ^_^
I don't think he was of the belief that a "cut" would be required to leave only 1 Simon. He wanted 1 Simon in the new suit with no death. Was that possible? No. But that's what he thought he was getting.
"Me, myself and Catherine"
I think I would try to wait so I could interact with the 'old simon,' or tried to set up an escape for him and clues/notes...maybe plug Cath back in (and deff apologize) and see if she can maybe lock down a safe path out. I'd personally be content with spending the rest of my (days?) walking on the ocean floor or maybe try to walk back to land to see the surface; That kind of body could help if anybody survived.
ps: I think Simon is vaguely working towards hopping on the Ark, so he'd end up doing this scenario again if he doesn't think things through.
I've been enjoying this playthrough so much! You've brought a lot of new perspective on certain aspects of this game, and it's gotten me to think a bit more about this game that I love. Really appreciate the videos!
I was really looking forward to this episode, and it didn't disappoint :) There are a couple of other moments I can't wait to see you experience and talk through, the philosophising is so interesting.
I chose to drain Simon1's battery bc how does a robot even end their own life? Does he just pull out his cortex chip? Does he know exactly where the cortex chip is? If he did would he even be able to access it inside his suit? If not, is there any alternative means of calling it quits? He's completely unfamiliar with his body and the environment around him, and I don't think he would have any idea how to end his own existence, and he wouldn't have Catherine to tell him how because she left with Simon2. So he would essentially be locked in that room with no way out, all alone, forever. Or until the WAU takes him. Can't imagine a worse fate.
This entire game is the transporter dilemma since in star trek you are not teleported from one place to another you are recorded and destroyed in one place and reconstructed in another. They do not destroy the first pattern until the second one is constructed but they took that choice and knowledge from their day to day life and choices but its how it works and people that have a problem with it are considered backwards and illogical in world which is hilarious.
It would bother me that the other Simon is going to think what you suspected when he wakes up… that Catherine took the suit and left him. I suppose he may figure it out if he thinks about it long enough.
Haha, I love the idea of WAU pickling humans to preserve them. As messed up as it is, I think that was a great analogy!
45:43 Also, this would be a good post for r/WatchPeopleDieInside
"I will follow you into the dark" - reference to Death Cab for Cutie (the band)?
Another interesting angle to think about is if the body swap was a consciousness transfer and not a copy, you'd have no moral consideration for the old body being dead. So what exactly is the difference here? As the game previously mentions, for a brief moment you and your copy are the same person. So even if the original wasn't doomed being left behind, killing them wouldn't be morally wrong because that is what you had originally decided to have happen when you thought it was just a tranfer.
This whole thing reminds me of the book Dark Matter by Blake Crouch. Truly recommend it! The audiobook is great too.
I killed the other Simon. In one way, it just felt like the right thing to do. Another way, in a I guess selfish way, it felt easier to move one with my (simons) life, if he is dead, like a loose thread that needed to be taken care of. Like a old shell you needed to discard after moving to a new one, if you were a snail for example. Or a snake shedding its old skin. Those arent 1 to 1 comperisons, but hopefully you get what I mean.
I agree with what you said but only if the 'original' clone was another person, but i believe it to still be me/simon. If it were another person then i would think to give them the chance to make the decision themselves but i know that the 'original' has the same mindset as me, it has only been a few moments since the separation of experiences and like I know exactly what I would do and how i would feel so I wouldn't want to put that me in the situation. I know there is no way out and that i wouldn't want to wake up knowing that I have been abandoned there so i would just end it instead of allowing that original me to have to go through it.
I had a meeting about a meeting today and feel called out lol
Although I would've taken the option to kill/power down the previous Simon (by reasons others already mentioned), in your place I would've at least left a note explaining the situation 😅
With the crying woman, all you need to do is be quiet. Any noise starts to alert her, then stop moving and be quiet, and her alertness goes down. You can walk right up to her and grab the power pack on the wall if you take it slow and steady. Looking at her is safe, the only one you couldn’t look at is the one with the lights all over its head inside the sunken ship
Also, a lot of the bodies throughout Omicron move around while you’re on other floors. Not just the WAU cyborgs, but also the headless human bodies ::)
"Hentai live support" 💀
What a good time we are having :)
Hey, uh, the old Simpon doesn't have an Omnitool
Episode ending discussion
Cath is definitely at fault for saying nothing. If Simon is one continuous identity, then blindsiding him with having to end himself is needlessly distressing. If the two Simons are separate, the previous one deserves to know his task is complete and participate in how he dies.
This scenario is entirely Cath wanting to control Simon’s response by withholding information until after the point of no return.
Counter argument:
Simon is unstable and impulsive. Telling him "We will copy your mind, so you stay as you are and a copy of yourself (which will feel like a direct continuation) will proceed. You will stay behind and have to be on your own" would leave the potential of Simon rejecting to help her - help Humanity on the ark and die with the rest of humanity instead.
This way the old simon we played for most of the game thinks he is transferred - and then dies. Without stress, no fear.
If you had the choice of:
Dying in your sleep not knowing it will come, thinking you'll wake up tomorrow as always -
or knowing someone else will continue to live your life, you're left behind and either die on your own or maybe don't wake up.
What choice would you make? The illusion of a choice? In both cases Simon will die - this world has nothing left to live for, especially not if the only purpose he had left was now fullfilled by his new copy.
Also Simon should have known. He found his own records of his human self that continued to live for another month - he should have known at THAT point that he is a copy and that the transfer is always just Copy-Paste and not Cut-Paste. He should have asked catherine "Will it be like the old simon? My mind being copied, stuck into a machine while "I" continue to be as i am?" but he didn't.
He had all the possible knowledge to know better - he just decided not to think about it.
True, but I also kind of understand her decision. Judging by his character and previous reactions, Simon probably wouldn't have done the "switching bodies" thing if he knew all the implications. When talking about his former self knowing about him back at Theta, Catherine even says "judging by your previous reactions, I'd assume he'd be pretty upset". Catherine's highest goal is ultimately getting the ARK to space, and I assume she'd rather tell half-truths or even straight up lies (coin toss wink wink) than risking Simon not playing along.
I think she ultimately came to the decision that the unavoidable fallout after the scan would be better than the outcome if she told him directly before the scan. And even if she didn't, she is described as shy and introverted in the game, so I can understand if she didn't have the courage to tell him and went the easier way.
Having said that, she is still at fault of course.
@@Blubbpaule I already said I was in favor of Simon choosing how he dies. My point is the dilemma in the game is only a horrible one because of Cath. Cath willingly takes away both Simon’s agency because she doesn’t trust (or doesn’t value) his decisions.
And I’d argue Simon is merely emotional, not unstable. At every turn he’s only done what was necessary, and humanizes every AI he’s come across. At the final moment he chooses to adapt like with the diving suit reveal, the Ark reveal, him being a robot AI, etc. Cath’s hand is not being forced, she is choosing to manipulate.
I also feel like it's one of those moments akin to why things like 'horse' and 'cat' weren't defined in early dictionaries because ... well, why the fuck would you ever need to look up what a horse or cat are? You should know that stuff already. Whenever Catherine is asked to explain, most anything, she fumbles her words and either dumbs it down to a point its only half-correct or she just goes 'just do the thing, ok?'. Perhaps not from a point of manipulation but from a genuine inability to explain how 'her world' works because she's never had to explain what a 'cat' was to someone, for lack of a better metaphor.
@@CoolDude374-oe8di this only makes me wonder how little she must think of the humans onboard Ark. She’s already shown no qualms about creating and destroying AI for her own ambitions. It’s pretty hard to believe she actually cares about Ark for the reasons she states, based on how she treats Simon alone.
The thing I love about the choice you are made to make at this point in the game is that, the copy is YOU. In a sense, that makes it the easiest choice in the game, if you think about it a certain way, because you never have to worry about the question of doing something the other person might not want. That is, because it's YOU sitting in that chair, you KNOW that no matter what you choose, they would have chosen the exact same thing given the option to do so. (Sorry if I'm rambling... I promise that all made sense in my head. haha)