This was awesome Mark! Exactly why I love this game so much. Like you said, it took many many many times playing through before I started to realize how it was all pieced together, but you do start to notice the patterns eventually, and yet it's always fresh and (most important) fun. I really want to pick up the book, I was really intrigued when I first heard about it. Cheers man, glad to know someone else loves Spelunky as much as me :)
Oh, look at that, its snomaN! You both guys are inspiring me to make a game design/analysis channel in Brazilian portuguese, just wanted to let you know :)
The Amazing thing is that Spelunky basically started this trend of 'Rogue-lite' indie-games, but it still has one of the best level generators in the genre. While games like Isaac or Rogue Legacy generate only what rooms will be in the dungeon - but not the room themselves - Spelunky create levels from pieces of premade content creating ifinite number of possible adequate looking levels.
I can attest that in 200+ hours and multiple hell wins, I have never found a level which is impossible to progress through, although I have seen some on streams and youtube videos, along with levels you might get stuck in if you don't have the resources, like snake pits without bombs or ropes/mobility items.
Big Phat Walrus snake pits aren't meant to be 100% escapable, that's why they are risky! But you're right, every 10,000th level or so the algorithm will mess up and require a bomb to reach the exit.
Oooh, didn't know there was a book. Gonna have to grab that. Great job with the segment on visualizing the level generation - very polished, very easy to follow.
the cool thing about the map design is that it's basically how you would randomly generate a map for a tabletop game. you would have to have some system of making a path, filling out the extras, and then populating it
Nice video! I really enjoy the "learning a system" part of games like spelunky. Guess I'm going to have to read that Spelunky book once I'm done with Empires of EVE.
Fantastic video. That bit where you explained how the algorithm actually constructs the level was beautiful with those little visual assets and sound effects - great touch! I haven't played a ton of Spelunky, but the bits that I did were a lot of fun and were extremely engaging. Really need to pay attention and be observant of the level's setup and enemies. I started to notice those repeating areas at points, and I think that was a genius idea. It allowed for smaller areas to become familiar, but the overall set-up of the levels was almost always different! Again, great video man - your shit's always great for gaining developer insight in a more structured (and accessible) manner!
I got Spelunky years ago years ago, played a couple times, got frustrated and gave up rather quickly. Then Mark published this video and convinced me the game was worth another shot. Nearly two years later, I've put several hundred hours into the game, and it's become a slight obsession of mine. I bought Derek's book, play the daily challenge every day, and rank far higher than any of my friends. All because of this video. Thank you, Mark. Your channel is a blessing.
This is a game I've always meant to check out but never got around to it. I think this video might have pushed it into a must-play position. Thanks for the excellent video as always Mark!
+Writing on Games It's amazing. I think the main problem with it is that the difficulty curve is savage for the first hours, and people often get tired before learning to play.
Really great one. I thought the book was fantastic too, I hope Boss Fight get more designers to talk directly like this. It was kind of like the best postmortem ever? Anyway this is a really wonderful summary of Spelunky and edited so gorgeously, like you always do. Thanks for making it!
ok... i discovered you channel yesterday and i have to say, your videos are awesome. A real sugar for my game designer brain! After seeing your spelunky video, i decided to include a procedural level generation in a school project. And i'll be sure to remember all your good tips for my futurs game jam submissions. Keep up the good work, you've got a new fan.
Those videos are so incredibly awesome. Helpful, entertaining, great prepared, wonderful spoken and with incredibly high quality. I am so sorry for not being able to support you on Patreon... Thank you so much for uploading those videos for free! Keep up the best work I have seen on UA-cam yet!
It's extremely rare but sometimes you can get a shop to spawn with a blocked entrance (dirt blocks). I have over 2000 deaths on the 360 version of this and have maybe seen this twice ever. Conversely, I have yet to find the alien gun in a crate even though it's supposed to be possible. Go figure!
I've seen the Plasma Cannon spawn in a crate in a few daily challenges but never in a legit game. I have ran into a few Yeti King levels where the path to the exit was completely blocked.
Great video as usual! You're absolutely on point here. Spelunky was one of the first games with "procedurally generated" levels that I feel did it right. I find too many games that use the feature have maps that feel sterile and samey no matter what due to copy pasting assets & design and lack of detail among other issues. This one worked though. I can also say X-Com 2 did a good job with making its procedurally generated levels feel authored and if what I've heard from modders is correct, that's because Firaxis took a very similar approach of having it use authored templates and themes to avoid some of the dread issues of the technique.
Excellent video! You're doing a great thing here for game artists, designers, and developers everywhere. You content is always very inspiring, and I hope you never stop!! Thank you!
The biggest testament to the quality of Spelunky's level generator is the shock and confusion you get when you play a game that doesn't have well-thought out level generation, and sometimes creates unwinnable maps, like The Swindle.
To do a random generation, it exists probability mathematics. Then, with that, you need to make the level 100 or 20 beateable, and if there's a combination where that percent is 0, you as a designer, need to get rid of it.
The way you described all the characteristics that make this game enjoyable, I could have sword you were describing any Pokemon mystery dungeon game. The only difference that I could tell was a leveling system vs score.
The first rule in Spelunky is that you Don't Kill The Shopkeepers! Damn it. Great video BTW. Now I have to go play Spelunky for the thousandth time or so? Easily one of my favorite games in the last decade and I've often thought about the algorithym for creating levels in that game. I suspected it was grid based but it's really cool to hear all the other randomization. Such smart design.
you know i had the exact same reaction to terraria the levels are always fun and interesting as wel as being thematically and structurally consistent despite being randomly generated.
This just popped up on my recommended channels. Clicked it right away bc Spelunky is one of my favorite games. Glad I did, great video! Excited to watch more from you.
I'm fairly early on in my game dev journey - and this channel has been excellent for dipping my toes into theory! I'm a big fan, and just wanted to offer some praise.
You know when you've got something when you start naming the features. I remember the spectre in Saberwolf as "Avon" because it the willow the wisp would turn up with a jangly music, usually just as you were leaving the screen so you'd just get a couple of notes. Ding dong, Avon calling.
Loved this discussion of procedural generation done right. I love procedurally generated games, for example, Terraria, but I'd cite this as an example where it often goes awry, because I've generated levels several times that seemed to have no viable cave systems in range of the starting location, necessitating tedious digging in a random direction to find resources.
Good vid. I just finished devouring the book last week and I'm glad you went through the effort of animating the concepts he explains in there. Thanks!
Yes, Spelunky is a great example of how to do random generated levels right, and not as a crutch. I'd like to see a similar video on Diablo 3 levels because - IMHO - that's a great example how to NOT do it right. I know Diablo has many fans, but the levels in that game are a pure definition of "soulless". There's absolutely nothing memorable in Diablo 3 level layout, there is no sense of pacing, no incentive to go just a little bit further to see what's next, they are just containers to put enemies in so you have something to click on and collect ridiculous amounts of loot. I have absolutely nothing against people who enjoy Diablo, I understand there is an inherent addictive quality to collecting loot and unlocking abilities but please... don't even try to say there's anything great in the way those levels are designed. I couldn't care less for "replayability" if I can barely stand going through the levels once.
spelunky is the game that inspired me to become a game developer, seeing the discussions on tigsource and knowing one guy made it was simply mindblowing at the time.
The PRNG used for Spelunky's worldgen has a Unique Rooms element system similar to the one used in the legendary roguelike Nethack, where there are constant elements that will always recur in game. Like Sokoban, Croseus's Fort, and the Castle, Spelunky has fixed special elements like the trapped Idols, the Big Fish's underwater arena in the Jungle, and the Big Alien's mothership in the Ice Caves.
Inspiring and very informative, thanks for sharing your amazing knowledge Mark, I love Spelunky but certainly can cause all kinds of ragequits because it relentless difficulty.
this is actually such a good video, i might have to go buy that book lol. spelunky's level generator is so good i never even noticed it was on a grid or anything, it feels so authentically random and unique each time you play
Procedurally generated levels are perhaps the most impressive part of one of my favorite games in recent years, Deep Rock Galactic. The game has multiple different biomes, all of which have different rules for the procedural generation of terrain, so that elements are familiar and distinctive, but never the same. Long tunnels and giant caverns in Sandblasted Corridors, multi-tiered vertical chambers in Dense Biozone, cluttered rooms full of strange crystal shapes in Crystalline Caverns, and so on through the many different environments. These distinctive features make the different biomes more than just a cosmetic skin over the mission, but force you to use each character's unique traversal tool in particular ways. Combine this with the fact that most mission types also have rules for terrain generation (mining missions are mostly linear, point extraction revolves around a central hub chamber, etc) and you get an interesting mixture of new and familiar, so that you can never know exactly what's coming next, but nothing is every so outlandish or unexpected as to be impossible.
Reminds me a lot of the level generation used for Stone Soup: Dungeon Crawl. You should look into that, if you haven't heard about it yet. In short, like many roguelikes, it uses a blend of procedural & random level generation combined with 'vaults' of entirely pre-made dungeon. There's a lot of variation in the procedural levels, but even those tend to have a 'theme' in how they turn out depending on where in the dungeon they are made. The orcish mine's procedural levels are a spaghetti-like warren of tight corridors and occasional wide-roomed pockets. The Lair is an underground jungle with clumps of trees that unpredictably alternate between chokepoint-dense strands and massive clearings, with ponds and rivers scattered throughout. The Shoals are a chain of islands of indeterminate size -- the tide's coming & going revealing the landbridges and sandbars that connect them. And that's not even half of the dungeon's themes... Gameplay wise, there's a lot of good design analysis to take away from the game, too. Stone Soup does a lot of things differently from most roguelikes. Like its emphasis that the game and all its features should be entirely beatable without looking up webguides (Remember how you learned 'elbereth', anyone?), automation for trivial / tedious activity, etc. Probably my favorite thing that the game does is randomize the appearance of scrolls and potions in each new game. This means that you -- as a player -- have to learn which color & viscosity the healing potions are alongside each of your characters. (The game is also merciful enough to auto-inscribe your potions with things that your character has noticed, such as "potion drunk by monster", and auto-inscribes the actual names of potions / scrolls / wands once you confirmed their identities by using them appropriately)
This was amazing! The explanation of the random generation was so well done, you brought it down to an easily understandable level while not downplaying its genius, and also tie it into how it crafts the experience! I would love to see more GMT videos like this where you explain the behind-the-scenes bits, if the opportunity presents itself!
thanks for the episode, Mark. That some brilliant level generator Spelunky have, and i'm always wondering on how he did that. Definitely gotta give that book a read.
I've read a lot of forums and did a lot of research into Spelunky development, and I have to say it doesn't get much better then this video. Thanks for the great episode! Btw would you be interested in doing in episode on Dwarf Fortress's world generation? It's a masterpiece!
Great video. I really need to start playing this game. I bought it ages ago and it's been sitting inside my PS3 unplayed. It sounds like a really enjoyable game.
I found one yesterday that was impossible without items. 2 high corridor, with 2 spots on either end of the corridor where it was only one high. A thwomp was stuck between those. Meaning I had to go through a 1 block space where I was on top of a thwomp. I had no bombs. RIP.
True, rarely the mothership will cause 3-4 to be impossible without a bomb. Very rare. But having a single bomb should get you through. Having zero bombs in Spelunky is a situation you never want to be in :)
Well, after 3600 runs(pls don't ask, I mess around with the shortcuts and spam quick restart waaaaayyy too much)and I rarely find an unwinnable situation
My other half of my channel got lost in Spelunky. We've always found the random level design extremely entertaining. This game is extremely fun with multiple people. I never realized how sophisticated the level design was.
Hands down the best 2d indie game of all time. I just hope Derek or someone else makes a sequel or dlc because to me it feels there's even more possibilities for this genre of game. Great video
+Game Maker's Toolkit The annoucement of Half Life 3 at this stage would be something like "Oh... yeah... there was something... way in the past..." for me ^-^ Spelunky 2 on the other hand... well...
Another great episode as always. Mark, can I ask what typeface you are using or is it a trade secret? 4:12 looks a lot like Interstate but I can't tell. I'm mainly judging by the the quotation marks. It's sexy, I always love the lengths you go to make sure you design your videos properly, endlessly inspiring to someone who studies in the field of design. Keep it up!
It's pretty similar to Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall dungeon generation, Daggerfall had the issue that the hand-crafted "chunks" did not always come together well, but at the end of the day it was always possible to find a quest objective if you had necessary skills or spells and a lot of patience to transverse them.
My favourite and most played game out of all the games. I do wonder if anything will ever top it, for me. If anybody is interested in watching videos of Spelunky, I recommend Tom Francis' Let's Plays, where he takes on the daily challenge. No longer updated, sadly, but there's a wealth of very funny stuff to see.
As great as this game is (play it daily atm) I wouldn't mind seeing a major update to it or even a Spelunky 2 with even more variety. More places to explore and either big levels or short ones. It's always the same size in Spelunky. I don't mind it that much since Spelunky is one of the best games I ever played. That's why I would love more! I hope I win the lottery this weekend. Then I'll see into paying either Derek Yu or a different group who love Spelunky to make a huge update or Spelunky 2! :D
Now, I know about that one thing with the eggplant everyone on Twitter was talking about. I'm actually torn about getting the book. On one hand, I'll be able to read up on what Derek Yu did to make the levels work with his proc-gen algorithm. On the other, I've known of how the levels were made for a while after reading the Spelunky Generator Lessons (URL: tinysubversions.com/spelunkyGen/), and I'm not a big fan of Spelunky's gameplay - or most 2D platformers, actually. Regardless, I'm glad this games has somehow stood the test of Indie Time (i.e. the usual time it takes for most indie games to disappear from the popular conversation about games - roughly about 5-6 months), and I hope others - whether they be aspiring game developers or people looking for a good read - are able to read up on Derek Yu's design choices for what is possibly the most popular rogue-like since Rogue. P.S. I'm so glad you're such an astute video developer, Mark. I was thinking of the Spelunky Generator Lessons, but I didn't know the full title. Thankfully (as I expected), you had a link to the lessons in the description for me to use in my own post for this. Great job on all of your videos, and I hope to keep placing these useful references in your Toolkit video descriptions.
Gotta give this game a go, it looks like something that's possibly more than what I've been expecting to love about No Man's Sky when it's released. Great video yet again.
Great video! A lot of interesting points as usual, especially that statement about the player being forced to make decisions that either end in regret from choosing poorly or satisfaction of a successful choice. I wonder if there is a golden ratio of failure vs success or an ideal graph for it maybe. Have you ever come across something like that or have an opinion on it yourself?
Mark, I've watched a lot of videos your now (mostly within the last couple of hours). Your analysis does a lot to bridge the gap between the player and designer perspectives. A lot of the time, I feel that the player rarely ventures out of their precise perspective, which is a shame. Appreciating a game (or anything, really) requires that you appreciate the intent and work of the artist, as well.
What a phenomenal game. I always hear about second or third tier players who have figured out secrets and more optimal play styles and “runs” but I’ve still yet to get more than 3 levels through at any given time. Same with Enter the Gungeon! But yet I will always keep coming back. Both outstanding games. I think even though I haven’t completed a run yet, the games still balance a need to come back and also that addicting sense of “i think i’m good at this game[?],” sensation.
Derek Yu while making spelunky: so, do you want good level design, but lots of hard work and people can memorize the levels, or do you want an algortithm to do it? derek yu: yes
Spelunky levels look notably better than, say, Minecraft's dungeons. Clearly the balance between "random generation" and "authorship" is a delicate one. Of course, this is something that RPG nerds have been dealing with in the form of random encounter tables for years. The comparison isn't perfect, but there's still a measure of authorship (what goes on this table and does it make sense) and random generation (roll d%). Sometimes, it works well, and you can easily craft a narrative after a series of random encounters: "Those goblins were running from the werewolf who was cursed by the demonspawn." Other times, though, it's just a series of unrelated encounters that don't particularly make sense: "Wait, how did that ogre get food and water? She had a shadow spider nest on one side and a venomous tentacle demon on the other."
I don´t understand the first comparison. A minecraft Dungeon is basically a stone cube with a spawner in the middle and a chest. Of course a Spelunky level looks better. I think you meant something else with "Minecraft's Dungeons"
Can you imagine a Dark Souls with randomly generated levels ? Or at least random enemy spawns ? That would be something pretty cool, like you said forcing the player to master the mechanics instead of learning and remembering the levels (DS isn't just that ofc but it's still a big part of being good at the game).
+Game Maker's Toolkit Haven't played Bloodborne yet, but from what I've heard they get repetitive quickly and they're a little something on the side, not the core of the game. But maybe they're the sign Miyasaki wants to randomize his formula after the souls series.
+Game Maker's Toolkit And mostly everybody hated them. Spelunky and Dark Souls are two of my top 10 favorite games, but in my opinion the souls formula is impossible to replicate unless every part of the game is carefully crafted.
The way the levels are laid out, is often called a "digging" algorithm, where rooms either exist, or they don't, depending on how a path is carved out. If you want to see the 90's game comparable to Spelunky, I would highly recommend "Captive", for the Atari ST. There's even a rather thorough article, breaking down it's level generation, in a step-by-step way! Here's a link to the technical article: captive.atari.org/Technical/MapGen/Introduction.php
Thanks for the video! If it wasn't for you I would have easily glossed over Spelunky when it came free with PS Plus lately. I can easily see myself sinking it way too much time on it!
Peashooter: I Love This Game, The Layout Changing, The Enemy Variants, Me Losing My Sanity When I Die On Temple 4-1 And Get Sent Back To 3-1 Just Every Time To See I Need To Get From The Mines With A Key To 3-4, But, The Ghost, Yes, It Chases You, Yes, Theres 3 Ways To Kill It. (UFO, Abyss, Lava,) But, Where Did It Come From, In Classic, We Know It Could Be Another Spelunker, Its Big Enough To Be One, But HD, Where Did It Come? What We Know: Its Big, So Has A Big Hitbox, One Screw Up, Your Dead. Makes The Level And Music Weird. And Can Be Stunned By The Camera, But, Where Did It Come From, Its To Big To Be Another Spelunker. This Should Be Your Next Video. It Will Reveal Alot.
its never stated enough how disgustingly good your editing is
well with just editing you won't get an amazing video....
And he nails it too with an in-depth video within a limited time, whcih is awesome!
Fucking disgusting
It’s absolutely ridiculous. I swear he just really loves doing clever charts and graphs and whatnot.
It either means the editing is not horrible enough to mention, or seamless enough to not notice.
Damn well now I’m paying attention to it and getting discouraged
This was awesome Mark! Exactly why I love this game so much. Like you said, it took many many many times playing through before I started to realize how it was all pieced together, but you do start to notice the patterns eventually, and yet it's always fresh and (most important) fun. I really want to pick up the book, I was really intrigued when I first heard about it. Cheers man, glad to know someone else loves Spelunky as much as me :)
hallo sno :00000
Oh, look at that, its snomaN! You both guys are inspiring me to make a game design/analysis channel in Brazilian portuguese, just wanted to let you know :)
Proof that spelunky fandom is underrated and non cringe 10/10
Wow, Mark doesn't even acknowledge you, and you made the Spelunky video first... 😕
always has been
The Amazing thing is that Spelunky basically started this trend of 'Rogue-lite' indie-games, but it still has one of the best level generators in the genre. While games like Isaac or Rogue Legacy generate only what rooms will be in the dungeon - but not the room themselves - Spelunky create levels from pieces of premade content creating ifinite number of possible adequate looking levels.
I can attest that in 200+ hours and multiple hell wins, I have never found a level which is impossible to progress through, although I have seen some on streams and youtube videos, along with levels you might get stuck in if you don't have the resources, like snake pits without bombs or ropes/mobility items.
Big Phat Walrus snake pits aren't meant to be 100% escapable, that's why they are risky! But you're right, every 10,000th level or so the algorithm will mess up and require a bomb to reach the exit.
Of course, some levels trap you if you don’t have bombs with traps or setpieces like the mothership.
That's why I love rougelikes that follow this style of level design, such as nuclear throne.
I think Isaac does randomly design levels, doesn't it?
I think this is my favorite video of yours. Really well done.
He's very good to listen to.
Wait you’re here?! Wow
Oooh, didn't know there was a book. Gonna have to grab that. Great job with the segment on visualizing the level generation - very polished, very easy to follow.
the cool thing about the map design is that it's basically how you would randomly generate a map for a tabletop game. you would have to have some system of making a path, filling out the extras, and then populating it
Nice video! I really enjoy the "learning a system" part of games like spelunky. Guess I'm going to have to read that Spelunky book once I'm done with Empires of EVE.
Bit late, but trying to learn the jungle after mastering the caves was a nightmare!
Fantastic video. That bit where you explained how the algorithm actually constructs the level was beautiful with those little visual assets and sound effects - great touch!
I haven't played a ton of Spelunky, but the bits that I did were a lot of fun and were extremely engaging. Really need to pay attention and be observant of the level's setup and enemies. I started to notice those repeating areas at points, and I think that was a genius idea. It allowed for smaller areas to become familiar, but the overall set-up of the levels was almost always different! Again, great video man - your shit's always great for gaining developer insight in a more structured (and accessible) manner!
I got Spelunky years ago years ago, played a couple times, got frustrated and gave up rather quickly. Then Mark published this video and convinced me the game was worth another shot. Nearly two years later, I've put several hundred hours into the game, and it's become a slight obsession of mine. I bought Derek's book, play the daily challenge every day, and rank far higher than any of my friends. All because of this video. Thank you, Mark. Your channel is a blessing.
This is a game I've always meant to check out but never got around to it. I think this video might have pushed it into a must-play position. Thanks for the excellent video as always Mark!
+Writing on Games It's amazing. I think the main problem with it is that the difficulty curve is savage for the first hours, and people often get tired before learning to play.
Thanks for TrackMania my good sir.
Sometimes I tear up a little when I think about Spelunky and how excellently designed it is.
Really great one. I thought the book was fantastic too, I hope Boss Fight get more designers to talk directly like this. It was kind of like the best postmortem ever? Anyway this is a really wonderful summary of Spelunky and edited so gorgeously, like you always do. Thanks for making it!
+Mike Cook Thanks Mike! Yeah, the book is great - tackles so many interesting aspects of development.
@@GMTK0:42
ok... i discovered you channel yesterday and i have to say, your videos are awesome. A real sugar for my game designer brain! After seeing your spelunky video, i decided to include a procedural level generation in a school project. And i'll be sure to remember all your good tips for my futurs game jam submissions. Keep up the good work, you've got a new fan.
Those videos are so incredibly awesome. Helpful, entertaining, great prepared, wonderful spoken and with incredibly high quality. I am so sorry for not being able to support you on Patreon... Thank you so much for uploading those videos for free! Keep up the best work I have seen on UA-cam yet!
Thanks! And any and all support is appreciated - leaving comments, sharing the vids, SMASHING that like button :)
It's extremely rare but sometimes you can get a shop to spawn with a blocked entrance (dirt blocks). I have over 2000 deaths on the 360 version of this and have maybe seen this twice ever.
Conversely, I have yet to find the alien gun in a crate even though it's supposed to be possible. Go figure!
Plasma Cannon in crate is a 1/10,000 chance, so it makes sense that you haven't seen it yet
But what about an alien in a pot, still yet to see that.
I've seen the Plasma Cannon spawn in a crate in a few daily challenges but never in a legit game. I have ran into a few Yeti King levels where the path to the exit was completely blocked.
i was playing today and i found that! didnt know it was that rare :)
ive seen a blocked shop once
Great presentation of rooms being generated within the level! (Thanks for the mention of Yet Another Spelunky Mod.)
Great video as usual! You're absolutely on point here. Spelunky was one of the first games with "procedurally generated" levels that I feel did it right. I find too many games that use the feature have maps that feel sterile and samey no matter what due to copy pasting assets & design and lack of detail among other issues. This one worked though. I can also say X-Com 2 did a good job with making its procedurally generated levels feel authored and if what I've heard from modders is correct, that's because Firaxis took a very similar approach of having it use authored templates and themes to avoid some of the dread issues of the technique.
Excellent video! You're doing a great thing here for game artists, designers, and developers everywhere. You content is always very inspiring, and I hope you never stop!! Thank you!
The biggest testament to the quality of Spelunky's level generator is the shock and confusion you get when you play a game that doesn't have well-thought out level generation, and sometimes creates unwinnable maps, like The Swindle.
That's why you have to make sure there are no "islands", where you can't get to a certain point in the room, because it's blocked off.
To do a random generation, it exists probability mathematics.
Then, with that, you need to make the level 100 or 20 beateable, and if there's a combination where that percent is 0, you as a designer, need to get rid of it.
@@jkf16m96 dude, what the hell you just wrote
@@jkf16m96
Did you just have a stroke?
I just had a stroke reading that
The way you described all the characteristics that make this game enjoyable, I could have sword you were describing any Pokemon mystery dungeon game. The only difference that I could tell was a leveling system vs score.
The first rule in Spelunky is that you Don't Kill The Shopkeepers! Damn it. Great video BTW. Now I have to go play Spelunky for the thousandth time or so? Easily one of my favorite games in the last decade and I've often thought about the algorithym for creating levels in that game. I suspected it was grid based but it's really cool to hear all the other randomization. Such smart design.
you know i had the exact same reaction to terraria the levels are always fun and interesting as wel as being thematically and structurally consistent despite being randomly generated.
This just popped up on my recommended channels. Clicked it right away bc Spelunky is one of my favorite games. Glad I did, great video! Excited to watch more from you.
Thank you for tackling such a great game! I had never seen Spelunky classic before and now I'm curious to go back and play it.
I'm fairly early on in my game dev journey - and this channel has been excellent for dipping my toes into theory! I'm a big fan, and just wanted to offer some praise.
You know when you've got something when you start naming the features. I remember the spectre in Saberwolf as "Avon" because it the willow the wisp would turn up with a jangly music, usually just as you were leaving the screen so you'd just get a couple of notes. Ding dong, Avon calling.
Saberwolf? Avon? Will-o-the-wisp? I have absolutely no clue what you’re on about.
interesting, I'm going to start experimenting with this method.
same
THE OMEGA789
i made something similar but sometimes sometimes I block the exit..working on lol
Sparckman lol
Making this with click-team fusion?
THE OMEGA789
yaaaaaaaaaaaaap XD
Sparckman there is no other way ;)
I love clickteam
The first time I beat this game was one of my favorite game moments
Loved this discussion of procedural generation done right. I love procedurally generated games, for example, Terraria, but I'd cite this as an example where it often goes awry, because I've generated levels several times that seemed to have no viable cave systems in range of the starting location, necessitating tedious digging in a random direction to find resources.
Good vid. I just finished devouring the book last week and I'm glad you went through the effort of animating the concepts he explains in there. Thanks!
Yes, Spelunky is a great example of how to do random generated levels right, and not as a crutch.
I'd like to see a similar video on Diablo 3 levels because - IMHO - that's a great example how to NOT do it right. I know Diablo has many fans, but the levels in that game are a pure definition of "soulless". There's absolutely nothing memorable in Diablo 3 level layout, there is no sense of pacing, no incentive to go just a little bit further to see what's next, they are just containers to put enemies in so you have something to click on and collect ridiculous amounts of loot. I have absolutely nothing against people who enjoy Diablo, I understand there is an inherent addictive quality to collecting loot and unlocking abilities but please... don't even try to say there's anything great in the way those levels are designed. I couldn't care less for "replayability" if I can barely stand going through the levels once.
This video gives a good example on how to create a good procedural generated map. Really helpful.
One of my favourite games of all time, Thanks for the amazing video as always 😁
spelunky is the game that inspired me to become a game developer, seeing the discussions on tigsource and knowing one guy made it was simply mindblowing at the time.
Really cool explanation of Spelunky's level mechanics! c:
These are probably my favourite videos on UA-cam now
Great content! Thank you for this. I know is 4 years too late but is still useful information.
The PRNG used for Spelunky's worldgen has a Unique Rooms element system similar to the one used in the legendary roguelike Nethack, where there are constant elements that will always recur in game. Like Sokoban, Croseus's Fort, and the Castle, Spelunky has fixed special elements like the trapped Idols, the Big Fish's underwater arena in the Jungle, and the Big Alien's mothership in the Ice Caves.
Inspiring and very informative, thanks for sharing your amazing knowledge Mark, I love Spelunky but certainly can cause all kinds of ragequits because it relentless difficulty.
this is actually such a good video, i might have to go buy that book lol. spelunky's level generator is so good i never even noticed it was on a grid or anything, it feels so authentically random and unique each time you play
Awesome video. Totally agree Derek Yu's book is a must read if you're interested in game design.
Procedurally generated levels are perhaps the most impressive part of one of my favorite games in recent years, Deep Rock Galactic. The game has multiple different biomes, all of which have different rules for the procedural generation of terrain, so that elements are familiar and distinctive, but never the same. Long tunnels and giant caverns in Sandblasted Corridors, multi-tiered vertical chambers in Dense Biozone, cluttered rooms full of strange crystal shapes in Crystalline Caverns, and so on through the many different environments. These distinctive features make the different biomes more than just a cosmetic skin over the mission, but force you to use each character's unique traversal tool in particular ways. Combine this with the fact that most mission types also have rules for terrain generation (mining missions are mostly linear, point extraction revolves around a central hub chamber, etc) and you get an interesting mixture of new and familiar, so that you can never know exactly what's coming next, but nothing is every so outlandish or unexpected as to be impossible.
Reminds me a lot of the level generation used for Stone Soup: Dungeon Crawl. You should look into that, if you haven't heard about it yet.
In short, like many roguelikes, it uses a blend of procedural & random level generation combined with 'vaults' of entirely pre-made dungeon.
There's a lot of variation in the procedural levels, but even those tend to have a 'theme' in how they turn out depending on where in the dungeon they are made. The orcish mine's procedural levels are a spaghetti-like warren of tight corridors and occasional wide-roomed pockets. The Lair is an underground jungle with clumps of trees that unpredictably alternate between chokepoint-dense strands and massive clearings, with ponds and rivers scattered throughout. The Shoals are a chain of islands of indeterminate size -- the tide's coming & going revealing the landbridges and sandbars that connect them. And that's not even half of the dungeon's themes...
Gameplay wise, there's a lot of good design analysis to take away from the game, too. Stone Soup does a lot of things differently from most roguelikes. Like its emphasis that the game and all its features should be entirely beatable without looking up webguides (Remember how you learned 'elbereth', anyone?), automation for trivial / tedious activity, etc. Probably my favorite thing that the game does is randomize the appearance of scrolls and potions in each new game. This means that you -- as a player -- have to learn which color & viscosity the healing potions are alongside each of your characters. (The game is also merciful enough to auto-inscribe your potions with things that your character has noticed, such as "potion drunk by monster", and auto-inscribes the actual names of potions / scrolls / wands once you confirmed their identities by using them appropriately)
This was amazing! The explanation of the random generation was so well done, you brought it down to an easily understandable level while not downplaying its genius, and also tie it into how it crafts the experience! I would love to see more GMT videos like this where you explain the behind-the-scenes bits, if the opportunity presents itself!
thanks for the episode, Mark. That some brilliant level generator Spelunky have, and i'm always wondering on how he did that. Definitely gotta give that book a read.
This is a great channel. It needs more subscribers. I'm going to spread this stuff as much as I can.
I've read a lot of forums and did a lot of research into Spelunky development, and I have to say it doesn't get much better then this video. Thanks for the great episode!
Btw would you be interested in doing in episode on Dwarf Fortress's world generation? It's a masterpiece!
Nice to see some Classic Spelunky mentions.
Boy do I want Mark to look at all the great design in 2
Great video. I really need to start playing this game. I bought it ages ago and it's been sitting inside my PS3 unplayed. It sounds like a really enjoyable game.
“I’ve never stumbled upon a crappy level”
Israel Blargh found an impossible level once
video link plz
Yep, mee to, after about 1800 games...
I found one yesterday that was impossible without items. 2 high corridor, with 2 spots on either end of the corridor where it was only one high.
A thwomp was stuck between those. Meaning I had to go through a 1 block space where I was on top of a thwomp. I had no bombs. RIP.
True, rarely the mothership will cause 3-4 to be impossible without a bomb. Very rare. But having a single bomb should get you through. Having zero bombs in Spelunky is a situation you never want to be in :)
Well, after 3600 runs(pls don't ask, I mess around with the shortcuts and spam quick restart waaaaayyy too much)and I rarely find an unwinnable situation
My other half of my channel got lost in Spelunky. We've always found the random level design extremely entertaining. This game is extremely fun with multiple people. I never realized how sophisticated the level design was.
Hands down the best 2d indie game of all time. I just hope Derek or someone else makes a sequel or dlc because to me it feels there's even more possibilities for this genre of game. Great video
+jmiquelmb Oh man, I seriously think "Spelunky 2" would be more a exciting announcement to me than Half Life 3 at this point.
Maybe.
+Game Maker's Toolkit The annoucement of Half Life 3 at this stage would be something like "Oh... yeah... there was something... way in the past..." for me ^-^ Spelunky 2 on the other hand... well...
Oh yeah
That happened
SPELUNKY 2 BAYBEE
i had a feeling there would be a dunkey reference under that Read More ;P
you got it!
Man, I love binge-watching this channel!
Another great episode as always. Mark, can I ask what typeface you are using or is it a trade secret? 4:12 looks a lot like Interstate but I can't tell. I'm mainly judging by the the quotation marks. It's sexy, I always love the lengths you go to make sure you design your videos properly, endlessly inspiring to someone who studies in the field of design. Keep it up!
Hahahaha I thought it might be DIN. Thanks!
Sounds like a compelling risk/reward. You can't make me pay for my crimes!
This series truly does provide a "toolkit" of game design concepts... thank you for your quality content! :D
--- Ian C.
I love this game so much! Thank you for the insight into the mechanics. I'm going to look up that book by Yu now.
ive watched this guys videos so many times, hes so relaxing!
It's pretty similar to Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall dungeon generation, Daggerfall had the issue that the hand-crafted "chunks" did not always come together well, but at the end of the day it was always possible to find a quest objective if you had necessary skills or spells and a lot of patience to transverse them.
My favourite and most played game out of all the games. I do wonder if anything will ever top it, for me.
If anybody is interested in watching videos of Spelunky, I recommend Tom Francis' Let's Plays, where he takes on the daily challenge. No longer updated, sadly, but there's a wealth of very funny stuff to see.
As great as this game is (play it daily atm) I wouldn't mind seeing a major update to it or even a Spelunky 2 with even more variety. More places to explore and either big levels or short ones. It's always the same size in Spelunky. I don't mind it that much since Spelunky is one of the best games I ever played. That's why I would love more!
I hope I win the lottery this weekend. Then I'll see into paying either Derek Yu or a different group who love Spelunky to make a huge update or Spelunky 2! :D
PS: I'd be ready to throw €60 at a Spelunky DLC.
SPELUNKY 2 IS CONFIRMED TO BE A THING NOW GET HYPE
Spelunky 2 exists now
This channel is great! This helps so much developing games!
My favorite part of the worldgen is when there’s is a big cave area. Lovely!
every level of spelunky is personalized
to this day ,even after spelunky two, I am in fascination of how much of a good game spelunky HD is
Mark, your graphics are getting better and better.
Very interesting episode as always :) Spelunky is a great game I spent over 200 hours playing
Good video. Played both versions of Spelunky, both are excellent.
Now, I know about that one thing with the eggplant everyone on Twitter was talking about. I'm actually torn about getting the book. On one hand, I'll be able to read up on what Derek Yu did to make the levels work with his proc-gen algorithm. On the other, I've known of how the levels were made for a while after reading the Spelunky Generator Lessons (URL: tinysubversions.com/spelunkyGen/), and I'm not a big fan of Spelunky's gameplay - or most 2D platformers, actually.
Regardless, I'm glad this games has somehow stood the test of Indie Time (i.e. the usual time it takes for most indie games to disappear from the popular conversation about games - roughly about 5-6 months), and I hope others - whether they be aspiring game developers or people looking for a good read - are able to read up on Derek Yu's design choices for what is possibly the most popular rogue-like since Rogue.
P.S. I'm so glad you're such an astute video developer, Mark. I was thinking of the Spelunky Generator Lessons, but I didn't know the full title. Thankfully (as I expected), you had a link to the lessons in the description for me to use in my own post for this. Great job on all of your videos, and I hope to keep placing these useful references in your Toolkit video descriptions.
Nice little video. Especially to the ones new to it.
I am so addicted to Spelunky currently. I am also making my own custom skin! :D
Gotta give this game a go, it looks like something that's possibly more than what I've been expecting to love about No Man's Sky when it's released. Great video yet again.
currently working on a procedurally generated puzzle game and the more I learn the more spelunky impresses me
Mark, I'd love to see a series on Spelunky
Great video, thanks! I did not know this kind of videos are here on youtube, it's very interessing, I'm suscribing right now.
Great video! A lot of interesting points as usual, especially that statement about the player being forced to make decisions that either end in regret from choosing poorly or satisfaction of a successful choice. I wonder if there is a golden ratio of failure vs success or an ideal graph for it maybe. Have you ever come across something like that or have an opinion on it yourself?
I have played hours and hours of multiplayer with a close friend! It's truly amazing
What a great game. I hope to read the book soon.
Awesome. Ive seen a lot of Spelunky videos but never seen this!
I vote that this general way of making randomly generated levels out of mostly premade room setups be called “Spelunkying.”
Mark, I've watched a lot of videos your now (mostly within the last couple of hours). Your analysis does a lot to bridge the gap between the player and designer perspectives. A lot of the time, I feel that the player rarely ventures out of their precise perspective, which is a shame. Appreciating a game (or anything, really) requires that you appreciate the intent and work of the artist, as well.
What a phenomenal game. I always hear about second or third tier players who have figured out secrets and more optimal play styles and “runs” but I’ve still yet to get more than 3 levels through at any given time. Same with Enter the Gungeon! But yet I will always keep coming back. Both outstanding games. I think even though I haven’t completed a run yet, the games still balance a need to come back and also that addicting sense of “i think i’m good at this game[?],” sensation.
I loved both Gungeon and Spelunky. You should try Nuclear Throne.
Derek Yu while making spelunky:
so, do you want good level design, but lots of hard work and people can memorize the levels, or do you want an algortithm to do it?
derek yu: yes
Such an amazing the game, one of the many games that inspired me to design my own games
definitely on my wishlist now
Spelunky levels look notably better than, say, Minecraft's dungeons. Clearly the balance between "random generation" and "authorship" is a delicate one. Of course, this is something that RPG nerds have been dealing with in the form of random encounter tables for years. The comparison isn't perfect, but there's still a measure of authorship (what goes on this table and does it make sense) and random generation (roll d%).
Sometimes, it works well, and you can easily craft a narrative after a series of random encounters: "Those goblins were running from the werewolf who was cursed by the demonspawn." Other times, though, it's just a series of unrelated encounters that don't particularly make sense: "Wait, how did that ogre get food and water? She had a shadow spider nest on one side and a venomous tentacle demon on the other."
I don´t understand the first comparison. A minecraft Dungeon is basically a stone cube with a spawner in the middle and a chest. Of course a Spelunky level looks better. I think you meant something else with "Minecraft's Dungeons"
Rogther my guess is they meant any underground system in MC
@@daviddraper6468 yeah that is not good tbh, people are requesting a cave update for ages now
He put the eggplant emoji on his book cover...
i love this man.
really great and insightful video
thanks for making my day better
learning about the tiny reach of my whip was really hard for me
This video sums up why I love this game...
Amazing video. Thanks so much for making these, they are a great learning experience for design and developing better games
Wow I remember playing the old Spelunky but it has really evolved.
Can you imagine a Dark Souls with randomly generated levels ? Or at least random enemy spawns ?
That would be something pretty cool, like you said forcing the player to master the mechanics instead of learning and remembering the levels (DS isn't just that ofc but it's still a big part of being good at the game).
+iopklmification I believe some of the Chalice Dungeons in Bloodborne are randomly generated.
+Game Maker's Toolkit Haven't played Bloodborne yet, but from what I've heard they get repetitive quickly and they're a little something on the side, not the core of the game.
But maybe they're the sign Miyasaki wants to randomize his formula after the souls series.
+Game Maker's Toolkit And mostly everybody hated them. Spelunky and Dark Souls are two of my top 10 favorite games, but in my opinion the souls formula is impossible to replicate unless every part of the game is carefully crafted.
Check out Chasm, it's a procedurally generated metroidvania, it isn't finished yet, though.
Look into a game called Necropolis :)
cheers for the analysis, and I just bought the book :-)
The way the levels are laid out, is often called a "digging" algorithm, where rooms either exist, or they don't, depending on how a path is carved out.
If you want to see the 90's game comparable to Spelunky, I would highly recommend "Captive", for the Atari ST. There's even a rather thorough article, breaking down it's level generation, in a step-by-step way!
Here's a link to the technical article:
captive.atari.org/Technical/MapGen/Introduction.php
Thanks for the video! If it wasn't for you I would have easily glossed over Spelunky when it came free with PS Plus lately. I can easily see myself sinking it way too much time on it!
Wow great explanation about how the procedural generation works.
I'm sure you've got a lot on your plate, but another Spelunky video would be a lovely thing :)
Peashooter: I Love This Game, The Layout Changing, The Enemy Variants, Me Losing My Sanity When I Die On Temple 4-1 And Get Sent Back To 3-1 Just Every Time To See I Need To Get From The Mines With A Key To 3-4, But, The Ghost, Yes, It Chases You, Yes, Theres 3 Ways To Kill It. (UFO, Abyss, Lava,) But, Where Did It Come From, In Classic, We Know It Could Be Another Spelunker, Its Big Enough To Be One, But HD, Where Did It Come?
What We Know: Its Big, So Has A Big Hitbox, One Screw Up, Your Dead. Makes The Level And Music Weird. And Can Be Stunned By The Camera, But, Where Did It Come From, Its To Big To Be Another Spelunker. This Should Be Your Next Video. It Will Reveal Alot.
Enter the Gungeon uses the exact same approach to level design and I love it to death! Can't wait for the Gungeons and Draguns update!
I kind of wish Spelunky and Spelunky 2 got the pixel-art treatment like Spelunky Classic did. I'm always a sucker for those kinds of looks.