@ChrisMillerCycling To be fair to ENVE, Tour's test Melee was a 58cm, Ultegra spec, with SES3.4 wheels, 30mm tyres. SL8 tested was a 54 SWORKS w/ 50mm Rovals w/ 26mm tyres.
BTW my understanding for bikes from Dare or Storck Aerfast that they aim to hit good numbers at Tour test, they make Reach longer while Stack very very low so almost unrideable. Also... note that size 58 Melee and 58 SL8 are almost same in Reach and Stack. It will be a good comparison if they did. (Apparently SL8 has low stack only for small size frame below 56)
I’d absolutely love to see one or both of you guys heading over to the UK for a week during Hill Climb season to get your take on this niche sport. Speak to a few of the people, maybe go for 1-2 training rides and then sign up for one to give it a go. Really interesting to see your take on it, appreciating it’s ’not your wheelhouse’
Yes this looks to be the case, you can see in the pics the upward tilt giving you maybe 10mm or so. Paired with an 80mm stem which they offer and this will fit like most others in the range it seems. Still a very long and low frame!
@@andrewpatton1950 It looks like 0deg stem rather than the -6 that is ubiquitous on bikes. So a 110mm stem would be roughly 11mm higher stack and 3mm less reach vs a -6deg
@@kidsafeI don't think so, the website says -6. It looks like a more than normal rise because of flatter top tube. The 74 deg ST and TT style saddle clamp tells me they expect you to push your saddle 3cm forward of a normal road bike fit which explains the longer reach.
56km/h in your Centennial park chop!! Back in the day when i lived in Sydney they were trying to clamp down on bike speed on the park with rangers equipped with speed cameras pulling cyclists over.
Pls chris talk more about cycling fashion and maybe remake your old videos about shoes and why black ones are hard to pull off. Same goes for the winter wardrobe stuff (they were great).
I know you never talk about them but Orbea still have their UCI weight limit Orca and their deeptubed Orca Aero. Which both won in the World Tour last year with De Lie, Campenaerts, Van Gils and Van Eetveld (as a Pro Team, who will probably promote). I'm not saying they are on par with Cervelo, but if you're looking for WT winning bikes that don't advertise to do it all... ;)
That's a fair point, and completely our bias you are right. As an example I think the last Orbea I saw was when I was in Canberra in 2020, Bre Vine (Jay's wife) had one, and we did a few rides together.
@ChrisMillerCycling being a relatively small brand from Spain, I can see how their market share in Australia isn't that big. My lower tier carbon, 2020 Orca Aero isn't the lightest, so maybe I don't even want to know the aero numbers :D
Please don't translate kph to mph for us Americans (like Jessie does at 21:30)! We're supposed to be adopting the metric system. Cold turkey on mph is how we learn ;-).
i use mywhoosh because i'm not paying 20€ a month for zwift just to ride on ERG mode i despise indoor cycling enough to even pay for it every month lol mywhoosh is free and good enough to do some solid intervals when it rains outside
Whilst I have no brand or style allegiance to Rapha, for me, their bibs are the most comfortable I've ever used. Other equally expensive brands have left me needing a lot of chamois cream to stay sane, I've never had to bother at all with the Rapha ones. A great product.
its the same fabric as any other company so your paying for the name and to be looked at as a snobby try hard clout chaser which means even less if you can't keep up with your bike makes the brand a joke. it adds no performance value and the brands image is snobbery elitism through mediocre product
I agree I buy Pedla kit now I love supporting local (Melbourne) including their bibs, however I'd say Rapha bibs are marginally better than Pedla. Also I don't care about matching kit so I'll wear different together. I ride gravel in the Adelaide Hills so no pretension whatsoever.
Here's how I approach kit buying. I'm not a pro and cycling is, when it all comes down to it, a hobby (even if I'm obsessed with it). So there's a upper limit to my willingness to spend on kit. I value quality, functionality and I care about the looks - though I'm not into fashion. With all that in mind, I never purchased from the premium brands (except some Silca aero socks 😅) but from what I consider mid-market value brands. A lot of my recent purchases have come from Siroko which I find is good value for money. I am very happy with their bibs (both their premium and mid-tier versions), jerseys, and other stuff. I also like Castelli and Pearl Izumi (between a lot of basic designs you always can find some funky stuff). Also, I bought a lot of basics from Van Rysel and am super happy with the quality - and I will buy some proper kit from them as well soon. I as well own an autumn kinda jacket from Rockrider (Decathlon's MTB brand) which I really dig and like better than some of the more expensive ones I own. So I guess I'm becoming something of a Decathlon fan boy. From the premium brands, Rapha is certainly one of the more appealing ones to me as I don't perceive them as fashion-first which I personally find unappealing. And pricing-wise they still have reasonable stuff. The premium brand I'm kinda drawn to - but never would I spend the amount of money they charge - is Le Col.
re kits, I gave NeoPro a try and tell you what for the price and quality (bibs), purchased 6 one for every ride/commute day - $99 AUD each. Its starting to get outrageous the amount of money we spend on Rapha and MAAP particularly as there's not any real difference quality and wear wise; compared to less pricey brands like NeoPro. I'm feeling like a rebel in cheap kit but love it. Rapha and MAAP run fantastic community riders here in Melbourne especially for new riders, so they got that bit right.
Great chat. So many great topics. I’m on MyWhoosh as it’s free and the workouts are good. I pretty much only do workouts or bot riding. Haven’t raced or done a free ride on the platform since moving over 4 months ago.
Touching on the geometry of the VA-AFO, We saw that Pogacar at the tour, riding his bike with his seat far forward and his stack slammed, this was to allow him to be in a similar to a tt position on the road bike in a way, so really maybe these Dare guys are looking into the future and we are stuck in the traditional bike fit. Seat up and forward and front lower, all that is happening is that we are rotating further around the front of the bottom bracket. Id like to suggest the angle of the fit between the your stem and seat would be pretty close. This is just my thought process of what they might be trying to acheive.
But (unless the UCI have changed direction recently) you only have to sell 1 frame, at any price, to anybody you want, to meet the commercial availablity regs....
I've mainly bought Le Col kit, I've liked the designed. But I also asked a number of kit brands (black sheep, etc) if they have a Modern Slavery Statement detailing how they tackle these potential issues (which are big in the garment industry). Le Col is the only one to acknowledge my request and they provided me with their Modern Slavery Statement.
Funny how the Dare would fit me pretty perfectly. I can barely get 'normal' bikes to fit and have to run 140mm stems... Probably good for pros who are generally going longer and sitting right over the BB.
That dare stem/bar combo looks like a 0deg so you're basically adding 10-15mm of stack onto all those numbers vs a traditional stem. The stems come in 90-120 and the bars have 80mm of reach. It's long and low but I don't think it's as bad as the geometry says.
Lol, warm-ups. My warm-up is biking from my apartment to the start line. Edit: this was the perfect thing to listen to as I did my night-before prep for my 60mi cider ride sportive followed by an alley cat race
Zwift is currently doing their Zwift World Series races with prize money over some months which I find nice to watch because I have usualy done said race a week before.
Chris - when doing your deadlift, keep your spine neutral - don't look up so much but look 2 metres infront of you. imagine a broom stick touching the back of your head, spine & flat back.
Choose Rapha kit for the following reasons: - Known sizes - when i order a medium bib shorts or large jersey they fit every time. - Quality - High quality materials in my opinion the pad on the shorts is the best I've every used. - Limited Runs - Specifically on jerseys i tend to buy the limited runs. Due to the limited released numbers unlikely to bump into someone on the road with the same kit. Variety - They have a good range of options and the kit works.
It's gonna be ridden by a German Conti Team (Lotto-Kernhaus), not looking forward to race against these beasts. Pricing is on the very bottom of the website, seems to be 5220$ US
At 6'1, with a long inseam and being comfortable with a deep saddle to bar drop, I am most comfortable with a size 56 Specialized tarmac. Looking at the geometry chart, the size M of the Dare bike seems to work even though the reach is over 1cm longer than a Specialized tarmac. Have you both considered the steeper seat tube angle on this frame? Their reach numbers seem to match and make sense to me. The stack across all the frames are definitely low but that's main consideration for potential buyers when coming from the geometries of other race frames.
@ChrisMillerCycling California bike fitter here (shout out bike x fit ) I have an idea about the dare bike geo. you mentioned it! THE SLED. the bike geo using the sled in the most forward position makes the reach numbers more "normal " while allowing a more TT style position over the BB and increasing the hip angles that will likely allow you to adapt a lower aero position hence the lower stack. this bike has it all figured out but its built for its intended use only, the aero position! let me know what you think!
Your bike fit determines your seat position, not the seat tube angle. Steeper seat tube angle just means that you can use more set back or have your saddle more centered than anything else. Measuring reach from the bb is the only thing that makes sense, because your bike fit has the saddle relative to the bottom bracket. I think the dare geometry is aimed towards the Asian market where the average has shorter legs and longer torsos... You can also see that with other Chinese brands geometries.
Thanks for calling out the back hander idiots, cycling’s full of them. Would love you guys to go through the best(worst) Strava excuses for not winning races or failing a workout.
For kit brands my impression is this; Rapha: Wealthy middle aged southeast asian recreational riders, and instagram clout chasers. Quality used to be substantially better, I recently got a Pro Team kit, and the chamois is awful, it’s way too big, and poorly shaped. Jersey went from being excellent to ~fine~ Assos: Function over form. Some of, if not the most comfortable, well designed bib shorts on the market, but… they look a bit odd. Pas Normal: Clout chasers. Ale: Club kits. Decent price, decent quality. Pedal Mafia: Good quality, expensive, fit is a bit long, don’t see a ton of it outside the fast group rides, it doesn’t seem like they have much market penetration into the Rapha/Pas Normal crowd.
yup rapha is stuck up pretentious clout chasing low style bad design trying to market chinese manufactured fabrics as if its anything luxury which is a scam like comparing a bicycle to a car to justify the high costs which also makes no sense
Can I ask where you live Ryon? I'm noticing in the comments a brands vibe changes based on location. 100% agree about the "Clout Chasers" comment thought, totally stealing that phrase from you 😀
In regards to Rapha, can't say their core stuff is good quality. I've have had 3 of their core bibs stitching come apart after a few months. Have had them replaced and same thing again happened. Going back to Santini bib shorts, may not look like hottest item. However, they do last a long time.
Would love a bit more cycling fashion stuff in the show. Really enjoyed the chat about kit brands. Couple more WA based brands worth talking about, Pedalare do some really nice jerseys and Society do nice bibs.
For what it is worth, I have an old steel bike from the 80s,size 52,and it has about a 400 reach and 500 stack, though the headset is external so probably closer to 520mm so the Dare is like vintage geometry
Rapha started as an antidote to loud, crass, logo heavy cycling kit and gave us subtle, clean design. And it was really well made and performed. That's it. That's the brand.
Jason Osborne is a rowing Olympic Silver medalist in the lightweight double skulls, a world champion, world record breaker in the lwt single sculls and an overall absolute unit. You of all people should know this Jesse 😂
Good talking points this week. On Rapha, I got my first jersey from them around 2010 at a pop up store in Singapore. At that time it was more about style than quality. They made a product that looked unlike any other brand. Since then, they can’t work out what they want to be. Sometimes they want to be seen as the innovator (shadow jersey anyone…, power weave bibs). At other times it has been style (bright pink jerseys) . I feel that because they keep changing where they want to position themselves, they don’t really “own a niche” and the result are people that do style better (Pas Normal), people that do innovation better (agu with materials, castelli q36.5, or quality ASOS). So they are kind of everywhere and nowhere unless you’re looking for an English premium brand. They do have strong brand loyalty, they just don’t seem to be able to capitalise on it.
In bibs, Rapha are about the same as castelli for sizing. In Jerseys I find Rapha to be a smaller fit than castelli (eg large Rapha is medium castelli). I am a large in castelli but in Rapha I’m a large for some jerseys and XL in others😢
I sold all my PNS kits and went to Attaquer. Sometimes i cringe seeing out of 60 riders 57 of them are all in PNS here in the danish scene. It's wonderful cause now i'm the only one wearing Attaquer :D
27:20 Enve melle is a endurance bike by the standard of Specialized, it has very much the geometry of a Roubaix, só the numbers are great, if you think about that way
Speaking of triathletes doing weird things, regarding Kona, I watched Lionel Sanders' recap video (he did a whole Kona series, pretty good watch), he admitted one of his training errors were focusing on interval training, not doing continuous training on the bike for multiple hours, or the run, mainly because he finds it boring.. That blew my mind, a professional in the game some 10+ years, didn't think to do endurance training for an endurance event.
1:16:00 Have to bear in mind Jesse, some of the athletes get bonuses for specific legs of the Ironman. People can get contractual bonuses to like win the bike leg. So you'll watch them chill in the swim, and slaughter themselves in the bike, and then walk the run.
It might not be the direction you want the pod to go, but it would be awesome to see a small segment bringing light to some local/Aussie athletes, you’ve got such a great platform and voice within the industry, and now without the team, this could bring a lot of opportunities to up and coming or even established riders. Talk about tech, results, upcoming plans and training with these weapon riders and who knows maybe they gain another sponsor or a team sees them. Won’t name names but I raced a guy last weekend, his bike is wicked, and his recent results speak volumes, after a stint in Europe doing some racing there also, surely this is a small win for all?
So we are keen to have more 'segment' style elements to the show in 2025. We are testing live interviews and dial in's over the next few weeks, which would be an avenue for this sort of thing in the future. ps. I deleted my original response which was a COMPLETE overreaction. sorry about that.
@ saw the original response, I fully get it, I’m local myself. Been watching for atleast 4 years and probably consumed the rest of the content in the meantime so I’m across what you’re saying. I definitely wouldn’t expect to see “Nero show approved and supported athlete” stickers on their bikes 😂 keep it up anyway, I’ll leave the podcast ideas to you guys haha
@@checkoutmygregs if you are impressed with that stuff and want to clout chase paying more for lycra go do it buddy, its all stitching by chinese and vietnamese workers getting slave labor by a failing company with poor designs and even worse perception of false elitism for mediocre product
Kit: I pimp my radio show with custom kit from Jakroo that I designed. It's a conversation starter, which was the whole point. A Jersey costs me $83 US. MyWhoosh Worlds: I'm with Chris, Zwift would be relatable. Outrider: I bought in last week. Post-race debrief: Please don't call me.
Rapha bleeding money is likely through their retail stores. Brick and mortar is a money pit in today's market, and a lot of the ones I've been in are empty, but fully staffed with a cafe and all the things. There is also soooooooooo much competition in this market now with MAAP, PAS, Ornot, Grin27, Pedla, Pedal Mafia, Gorewear, Castelli, PEDALeD, Attaquer, Assos, Santini, Rule28 just to name a few - everyone and their dog has a kit brand, and it didn't used to be like that.
My brother’s a lawyer who rides twice a month on weekends. He’s north of 100kg, on a Giant TCR Advance SL with Lightweight and Xentis wheels. He drools frothes DT Swiss wheels. I hope that answers your question on DT, Jesse 😁
51:00 I am not sure if this is only me, but I don't really like Rapha... just because they promote low-viz jersey that has 2 reflective stripes on it. It might be a fashionable design but I really hate people on it complain safety on bikes. In Japanese cliche we often say "Red traffic light doesn't feel dangerous when ignoring it with other people". I feel Rapha really promotes that by creating a community thing while promoting those non-safer kit. Might not apply to racing side of their kit though.
"What have DT Swiss done?" Maybe it's that they can trace their history to a company from the 17th century and have a reputation for making bombproof wheels.
I empathize on not wanting to let go of your long boi stem or use spacers but going to the S5 has a bit of similar issues and I imagine this Dare thing is very similar. Before I got the S5, friends said it takes quite a while to get your fit down. The Dare seat post sled thing already looks better than S5 right away for fitment. If looking at these true aero bikes, you may have to disregard your traditional ideas of what your stem length should be. The aesthetics of using spacers is also not fun on these new aero stems. I went with the larger size S5 and must admit, while it may fit me nicely with a 100 stem, I'd like to go lower (head tube) with a longer stem but then you got a bunch of spacers if it doesn't work out and the gaps between sizes is pretty massive (51cm then 54cm)
Awesome work Jesse and Chris another well done podcast just running down the track. I know you guys both are into tech and I love cycling tech as well. Just curious to know how you and Chris especially how Chris has his Garman set up with his Pages and data field it is running, keep up the great work
On the cycling kit debate. I don't want to pay massive amounts, but I want good quality and what I have got from Siroko at the moment ticks the boxes and I like the looks of it too. One of the reasons for me Rapha has gone down in peoples thoughts because they started to sacrifice quality material. Started to notice it on friends kits after Sky moved on to Castelli.
The geometry of the Dare is indeed a mess, almost no one will be able to get comfortable on it. The cost is completely absurd for an unknown brand, it's the price of an S-Works. Dare offers zero distribution anywhere and zero support in the US so it's irrelevant for me anyway.
Jesse clearly has never done an Ironman to not know that yes, all bets are off once you get to the marathon and you just need to survive eating and drinking whatever your body allows 😅
"Stack" and "Fit Stack" are almost never the same, especially now days with all the aero tricks. Stack = BB -> Top of headset bearing, Fit Stack = BB -> base of the lowest position the stem can sit at.
Peaks the time cuts are your enemy. For us mere mortals dancing with Lanterne Rouge. I was at 172 klm and was told Sag wagon is coming. Will be there next year to finish.
Concerning the Dare: I was looking into getting the Simplon Pride but its stack was also way too low for me. I would have basically had my current position in the drops be the position on the hoods on the SImplon. The Dare seems similar being several cm lower.
I read that Simplon is niw defunct (or soon to be out of business). One look at this DARE frame and I immediately thought this looks an awful lot like the Simplon. Perhaps it would be a good replacement given how aero it is. Unfortunately i live in the USA, so will probably never see one of these for sale.
Re Rapha, I wonder whether their downfall is also linked to them stopping sponsoring “the English” cycling team (sky/ ineos). I did a Rapha cycle tour with them 11 years ago and there were quite a few Englishmen with all the kit (I mean everything!) because it was “the best of British”. Speaking more personally, I have plenty of Rapha kit, rain coat, gillet, wet weather gloves. It’s all 5+ years old, it hasn’t worn out, it’s still in the classic style; so there’s no point upgrading/ replacing.
fair cop to KB in the Ironman but have you seen the size of him ? Yes he's Norwegian, the new uber athlete breed, but my mates and I reckon he is a closet Krispy Kreme donut eater - and his imitation of Linda Blair was actually him purging a heap of donuts and rock cakes as well as some caramel flavoured milk. I've eaten my fair share of 7-11 sausage rolls so I know what I'm talking about. Great shout out you guys about Luke Tuckwell getting a start in the RB U/23. No doubt as he's from NSW - he wouldn't get a mention from the SBS/ABC/Melbourne cycling aficionados because he hasn't ridden on Beach Road, or done a Footscray CC crit yet. Ciao
Regarding the DARE geometry, can the steep seat post angle together with the range of fore aft adjustment be part of the puzzle? So that you can getaway with a longer reach bike.
@@rejeancomeauJesse has a “traditional” race fit. Fitting trends are much more progressive in the last few years. The entire body is rotated farther forward around the BB.
or your a young clout chaser with no style of your own and believed the hype that overpaying for lycra was a luxury brand and you fell for it while other riders laugh at you for trying to hard
@@checkoutmygregs go chase clout with your brands, its all the same chinese made crap marketed by different companies and in raphas case they have 7 years of losses of their daddys money they wasted playing bike clothes company. its not a mystery they are failing
I disagree that people have a deep emotional attachment with apparel brands. That’s what they would like you to believe but in 2024 it’s all about price price price relative to value. Most cyclists I know buy brand apparel ONLY when they are on sale & even then they tend buy the core range.
yea right any jersey does the same for a fraction of the cost and you don't put out the try hard look at me vibe with rapha that adds no value to performance, its a clout brand that fails the real sport enthusiasts by trying to claim its so much better while proving its just chinese manufactured fabrics like all the others
I was a Rapha person at one point, but they ditched whatever it was, some sort of 'aero' seamless knicks, and that was the end of that. I don't like all the seams these days. Some of their gilets, jackets etc are great. I agree with the boys, the quality was always there with Rapha. I have a few Castelli items that have been great too, but sourcing in Australia seems difficult. I've tried Attaquer, MAAP, LeCol, none of these seem to last like these others. I have quite an old pair of Assos that are in super good shape somehow still, their Lycra doesn't seem to 'age' like other brands do in my experience. So, I probably am just going to invest the dollars into a new pair of them to add to the rotation. Lets face it, these things get absolutely abused with what they go through, but they are super expensive, so when things last, that is nice.
Lameda from China is very good quality and value. They have their own store in Ali Express. Bibs wear and wash well and much more comfortable than PM club kit
Aero boy Jesse Coyle saying he sees aero never fails to crack me up 😂
Jesse and Mr. Newey... same skill different level :D
He’s had it since birth 😮
@ChrisMillerCycling To be fair to ENVE, Tour's test Melee was a 58cm, Ultegra spec, with SES3.4 wheels, 30mm tyres. SL8 tested was a 54 SWORKS w/ 50mm Rovals w/ 26mm tyres.
This. Don't really understand why Tour magazine used unfair setup over other bikes.
These fellas aren't interested in the details, only reinforcing their narrative.
To be fair to Chris & Jesse without referencing the inaccurate "Tour Magazine' test 12 times per show there would be very little content
Enve also had 2 piece cockpit ...maybe 2w there alone.
BTW my understanding for bikes from Dare or Storck Aerfast that they aim to hit good numbers at Tour test, they make Reach longer while Stack very very low so almost unrideable.
Also... note that size 58 Melee and 58 SL8 are almost same in Reach and Stack. It will be a good comparison if they did. (Apparently SL8 has low stack only for small size frame below 56)
I use My Whoosh. Needed a free option while job issues. Happy to have a competitor to Swift.
I’d absolutely love to see one or both of you guys heading over to the UK for a week during Hill Climb season to get your take on this niche sport. Speak to a few of the people, maybe go for 1-2 training rides and then sign up for one to give it a go. Really interesting to see your take on it, appreciating it’s ’not your wheelhouse’
Hello guys, It seems that Dare handlebar increases stack like Simplon or S5 if you check the photos.
So no adding spacers? Done in a wedge tilt type fashion?
I came here to say this as well.
Yes this looks to be the case, you can see in the pics the upward tilt giving you maybe 10mm or so. Paired with an 80mm stem which they offer and this will fit like most others in the range it seems. Still a very long and low frame!
@@andrewpatton1950 It looks like 0deg stem rather than the -6 that is ubiquitous on bikes. So a 110mm stem would be roughly 11mm higher stack and 3mm less reach vs a -6deg
@@kidsafeI don't think so, the website says -6. It looks like a more than normal rise because of flatter top tube.
The 74 deg ST and TT style saddle clamp tells me they expect you to push your saddle 3cm forward of a normal road bike fit which explains the longer reach.
Ever since GCN became independent, the content has really improved. I had COMPLETELY stopped watching, but i am watching more lately.
Perfect bike proportions for me, at last. Thank you Dare
56km/h in your Centennial park chop!! Back in the day when i lived in Sydney they were trying to clamp down on bike speed on the park with rangers equipped with speed cameras pulling cyclists over.
🤫
Pls chris talk more about cycling fashion and maybe remake your old videos about shoes and why black ones are hard to pull off. Same goes for the winter wardrobe stuff (they were great).
I know you never talk about them but Orbea still have their UCI weight limit Orca and their deeptubed Orca Aero. Which both won in the World Tour last year with De Lie, Campenaerts, Van Gils and Van Eetveld (as a Pro Team, who will probably promote).
I'm not saying they are on par with Cervelo, but if you're looking for WT winning bikes that don't advertise to do it all... ;)
That's a fair point, and completely our bias you are right. As an example I think the last Orbea I saw was when I was in Canberra in 2020, Bre Vine (Jay's wife) had one, and we did a few rides together.
@ChrisMillerCycling being a relatively small brand from Spain, I can see how their market share in Australia isn't that big. My lower tier carbon, 2020 Orca Aero isn't the lightest, so maybe I don't even want to know the aero numbers :D
Orca aero is not aero actually
Please don't translate kph to mph for us Americans (like Jessie does at 21:30)! We're supposed to be adopting the metric system. Cold turkey on mph is how we learn ;-).
🤣
@@ChrisMillerCyclingwe were meant to learn the metric system in the '70's; that ship has sailed😂
i use mywhoosh because i'm not paying 20€ a month for zwift just to ride on ERG mode
i despise indoor cycling enough to even pay for it every month lol mywhoosh is free and good enough to do some solid intervals when it rains outside
Whilst I have no brand or style allegiance to Rapha, for me, their bibs are the most comfortable I've ever used. Other equally expensive brands have left me needing a lot of chamois cream to stay sane, I've never had to bother at all with the Rapha ones. A great product.
its the same fabric as any other company so your paying for the name and to be looked at as a snobby try hard clout chaser which means even less if you can't keep up with your bike makes the brand a joke. it adds no performance value and the brands image is snobbery elitism through mediocre product
I agree I buy Pedla kit now I love supporting local (Melbourne) including their bibs, however I'd say Rapha bibs are marginally better than Pedla. Also I don't care about matching kit so I'll wear different together. I ride gravel in the Adelaide Hills so no pretension whatsoever.
I currently run 150-170mm Longboi stems with narrow bars (28cm at the hoods) on my bikes. The Dare VA-AFO geometry looks great to me.
Why do you need to have more than one bike set up this way?
Because that’s my fit I and have separate road race and crit bikes?
Here's how I approach kit buying.
I'm not a pro and cycling is, when it all comes down to it, a hobby (even if I'm obsessed with it). So there's a upper limit to my willingness to spend on kit.
I value quality, functionality and I care about the looks - though I'm not into fashion. With all that in mind, I never purchased from the premium brands (except some Silca aero socks 😅) but from what I consider mid-market value brands.
A lot of my recent purchases have come from Siroko which I find is good value for money. I am very happy with their bibs (both their premium and mid-tier versions), jerseys, and other stuff. I also like Castelli and Pearl Izumi (between a lot of basic designs you always can find some funky stuff).
Also, I bought a lot of basics from Van Rysel and am super happy with the quality - and I will buy some proper kit from them as well soon. I as well own an autumn kinda jacket from Rockrider (Decathlon's MTB brand) which I really dig and like better than some of the more expensive ones I own. So I guess I'm becoming something of a Decathlon fan boy.
From the premium brands, Rapha is certainly one of the more appealing ones to me as I don't perceive them as fashion-first which I personally find unappealing. And pricing-wise they still have reasonable stuff. The premium brand I'm kinda drawn to - but never would I spend the amount of money they charge - is Le Col.
Also, keep an eye on Ekoi. They run great sales pretty often and their stuff is great.
re kits, I gave NeoPro a try and tell you what for the price and quality (bibs), purchased 6 one for every ride/commute day - $99 AUD each. Its starting to get outrageous the amount of money we spend on Rapha and MAAP particularly as there's not any real difference quality and wear wise; compared to less pricey brands like NeoPro. I'm feeling like a rebel in cheap kit but love it. Rapha and MAAP run fantastic community riders here in Melbourne especially for new riders, so they got that bit right.
Great chat. So many great topics.
I’m on MyWhoosh as it’s free and the workouts are good. I pretty much only do workouts or bot riding. Haven’t raced or done a free ride on the platform since moving over 4 months ago.
Touching on the geometry of the VA-AFO, We saw that Pogacar at the tour, riding his bike with his seat far forward and his stack slammed, this was to allow him to be in a similar to a tt position on the road bike in a way, so really maybe these Dare guys are looking into the future and we are stuck in the traditional bike fit. Seat up and forward and front lower, all that is happening is that we are rotating further around the front of the bottom bracket. Id like to suggest the angle of the fit between the your stem and seat would be pretty close. This is just my thought process of what they might be trying to acheive.
The DARE bike was used in Pro Tour so it has to be sold. You can use a prototype but you get one year to release it to the public.
Doesn't need to be sold worldwide though. Can just be sold to a few asian customers and you're good.
But (unless the UCI have changed direction recently) you only have to sell 1 frame, at any price, to anybody you want, to meet the commercial availablity regs....
Doesn't need to be sold world wide though
I've mainly bought Le Col kit, I've liked the designed. But I also asked a number of kit brands (black sheep, etc) if they have a Modern Slavery Statement detailing how they tackle these potential issues (which are big in the garment industry). Le Col is the only one to acknowledge my request and they provided me with their Modern Slavery Statement.
Funny how the Dare would fit me pretty perfectly. I can barely get 'normal' bikes to fit and have to run 140mm stems... Probably good for pros who are generally going longer and sitting right over the BB.
Yeah, the seat tube angle is key; Can suit some people well if it’s really steep. Will suit almost no one if it’s slack.
Same here. Have you considered a Ribble?
@@TheWoogeroo I'm the one. 72 deg seat angle for me. Had to go custom. Chainstays still not long enough though.
That dare stem/bar combo looks like a 0deg so you're basically adding 10-15mm of stack onto all those numbers vs a traditional stem. The stems come in 90-120 and the bars have 80mm of reach.
It's long and low but I don't think it's as bad as the geometry says.
Lol, warm-ups. My warm-up is biking from my apartment to the start line.
Edit: this was the perfect thing to listen to as I did my night-before prep for my 60mi cider ride sportive followed by an alley cat race
To make chapters work - add 0:00 as the first one. Then they will appear on the timeline. Unless you made it on purpose)
sorry, my bad. Done
Zwift is currently doing their Zwift World Series races with prize money over some months which I find nice to watch because I have usualy done said race a week before.
Chris - when doing your deadlift, keep your spine neutral - don't look up so much but look 2 metres infront of you. imagine a broom stick touching the back of your head, spine & flat back.
Choose Rapha kit for the following reasons:
- Known sizes - when i order a medium bib shorts or large jersey they fit every time.
- Quality - High quality materials in my opinion the pad on the shorts is the best I've every used.
- Limited Runs - Specifically on jerseys i tend to buy the limited runs. Due to the limited released numbers unlikely to bump into someone on the road with the same kit.
Variety - They have a good range of options and the kit works.
It's gonna be ridden by a German Conti Team (Lotto-Kernhaus), not looking forward to race against these beasts. Pricing is on the very bottom of the website, seems to be 5220$ US
At 6'1, with a long inseam and being comfortable with a deep saddle to bar drop, I am most comfortable with a size 56 Specialized tarmac. Looking at the geometry chart, the size M of the Dare bike seems to work even though the reach is over 1cm longer than a Specialized tarmac. Have you both considered the steeper seat tube angle on this frame? Their reach numbers seem to match and make sense to me. The stack across all the frames are definitely low but that's main consideration for potential buyers when coming from the geometries of other race frames.
@ChrisMillerCycling California bike fitter here (shout out bike x fit ) I have an idea about the dare bike geo. you mentioned it! THE SLED. the bike geo using the sled in the most forward position makes the reach numbers more "normal " while allowing a more TT style position over the BB and increasing the hip angles that will likely allow you to adapt a lower aero position hence the lower stack. this bike has it all figured out but its built for its intended use only, the aero position! let me know what you think!
Q36.5 all the way for me. Great technical garments, fit me better than most other brands, enough variety of styles to please a fashion look.
Agreed. Really great fit and material.
You need the longer reach with the Dare. The larger 74 degree seat tube angle effectively moves the seat forward. The reach is measured from the BB
Looking at the effective TT, which takes into account the STA, it still is 1 size bigger than other brands, similar to a Van Rysel RCR.
Your bike fit determines your seat position, not the seat tube angle. Steeper seat tube angle just means that you can use more set back or have your saddle more centered than anything else. Measuring reach from the bb is the only thing that makes sense, because your bike fit has the saddle relative to the bottom bracket.
I think the dare geometry is aimed towards the Asian market where the average has shorter legs and longer torsos... You can also see that with other Chinese brands geometries.
If you look at all the uno x vsru's the seat is slammed as far forward as it goes 😅
Already downloaded for tomorrows gym sesh
Squats and Leg Press?
@ would it be a gym session without them 😂
@@ChrisMillerCycling great episode. In relation to Rapha I love it. The issue is I only buy stuff in a sale...
My kit choice is also driven by the comfort it provides my arse 😅
You don't have data or wifi in the gym???
Yeah, give us a 40c slick tire review!!
Thanks for calling out the back hander idiots, cycling’s full of them.
Would love you guys to go through the best(worst) Strava excuses for not winning races or failing a workout.
HAHA!! Oh that's a great one. Best Strava excuses.
We all know that one person
For kit brands my impression is this;
Rapha: Wealthy middle aged southeast asian recreational riders, and instagram clout chasers. Quality used to be substantially better, I recently got a Pro Team kit, and the chamois is awful, it’s way too big, and poorly shaped. Jersey went from being excellent to ~fine~
Assos: Function over form. Some of, if not the most comfortable, well designed bib shorts on the market, but… they look a bit odd.
Pas Normal: Clout chasers.
Ale: Club kits. Decent price, decent quality.
Pedal Mafia: Good quality, expensive, fit is a bit long, don’t see a ton of it outside the fast group rides, it doesn’t seem like they have much market penetration into the Rapha/Pas Normal crowd.
yup rapha is stuck up pretentious clout chasing low style bad design trying to market chinese manufactured fabrics as if its anything luxury which is a scam like comparing a bicycle to a car to justify the high costs which also makes no sense
Agree, changed from Pedal Mafia to Blacksheep as found PM a bit long (and I’m tall). BS has some awesome kits and well priced for high quality.
Can I ask where you live Ryon? I'm noticing in the comments a brands vibe changes based on location. 100% agree about the "Clout Chasers" comment thought, totally stealing that phrase from you 😀
@@ChrisMillerCycling Southern California. Feel free to take that, I certainly didn’t come up with it. 😂
Depends where you live. Perth is full of the local PM and not much Pas etc
In regards to Rapha, can't say their core stuff is good quality. I've have had 3 of their core bibs stitching come apart after a few months. Have had them replaced and same thing again happened. Going back to Santini bib shorts, may not look like hottest item. However, they do last a long time.
Would love a bit more cycling fashion stuff in the show. Really enjoyed the chat about kit brands. Couple more WA based brands worth talking about, Pedalare do some really nice jerseys and Society do nice bibs.
For what it is worth, I have an old steel bike from the 80s,size 52,and it has about a 400 reach and 500 stack, though the headset is external so probably closer to 520mm so the Dare is like vintage geometry
That's really interesting.
Dude, live stream the race recap! Bring the chat to the masses. I'd tune in
I've been a Castelli fanboy forever.
Their chamois (Air 2) was just the one that fit my ass the best, so that's what I've stuck with forever.
🤷♂
Was a castelli user for years until local shop stopped stocking and went with Giordana. Castelli are but these are next level
Intersting. Yeh we really don't see much of it here.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Castelli also make the best women's cycling clothing. It's all so well designed.
Castelli make great gear for reasonable prices.
Rapha started as an antidote to loud, crass, logo heavy cycling kit and gave us subtle, clean design. And it was really well made and performed. That's it. That's the brand.
Jason Osborne is a rowing Olympic Silver medalist in the lightweight double skulls, a world champion, world record breaker in the lwt single sculls and an overall absolute unit. You of all people should know this Jesse 😂
Assis has a more casual fit line and a race line. Their RS apparel is absolutely top notch 👌
Good talking points this week. On Rapha, I got my first jersey from them around 2010 at a pop up store in Singapore. At that time it was more about style than quality. They made a product that looked unlike any other brand. Since then, they can’t work out what they want to be. Sometimes they want to be seen as the innovator (shadow jersey anyone…, power weave bibs). At other times it has been style (bright pink jerseys) . I feel that because they keep changing where they want to position themselves, they don’t really “own a niche” and the result are people that do style better (Pas Normal), people that do innovation better (agu with materials, castelli q36.5, or quality ASOS). So they are kind of everywhere and nowhere unless you’re looking for an English premium brand. They do have strong brand loyalty, they just don’t seem to be able to capitalise on it.
What is their sizing compared to Castelli as example??
In bibs, Rapha are about the same as castelli for sizing. In Jerseys I find Rapha to be a smaller fit than castelli (eg large Rapha is medium castelli). I am a large in castelli but in Rapha I’m a large for some jerseys and XL in others😢
I sold all my PNS kits and went to Attaquer. Sometimes i cringe seeing out of 60 riders 57 of them are all in PNS here in the danish scene. It's wonderful cause now i'm the only one wearing Attaquer :D
The best part of the show is when you review a bike, you should do it every week, I watch you only for that
27:20 Enve melle is a endurance bike by the standard of Specialized, it has very much the geometry of a Roubaix, só the numbers are great, if you think about that way
Speaking of triathletes doing weird things, regarding Kona, I watched Lionel Sanders' recap video (he did a whole Kona series, pretty good watch), he admitted one of his training errors were focusing on interval training, not doing continuous training on the bike for multiple hours, or the run, mainly because he finds it boring.. That blew my mind, a professional in the game some 10+ years, didn't think to do endurance training for an endurance event.
1:16:00
Have to bear in mind Jesse, some of the athletes get bonuses for specific legs of the Ironman.
People can get contractual bonuses to like win the bike leg. So you'll watch them chill in the swim, and slaughter themselves in the bike, and then walk the run.
It might not be the direction you want the pod to go, but it would be awesome to see a small segment bringing light to some local/Aussie athletes, you’ve got such a great platform and voice within the industry, and now without the team, this could bring a lot of opportunities to up and coming or even established riders. Talk about tech, results, upcoming plans and training with these weapon riders and who knows maybe they gain another sponsor or a team sees them. Won’t name names but I raced a guy last weekend, his bike is wicked, and his recent results speak volumes, after a stint in Europe doing some racing there also, surely this is a small win for all?
So we are keen to have more 'segment' style elements to the show in 2025. We are testing live interviews and dial in's over the next few weeks, which would be an avenue for this sort of thing in the future. ps. I deleted my original response which was a COMPLETE overreaction. sorry about that.
@ saw the original response, I fully get it, I’m local myself. Been watching for atleast 4 years and probably consumed the rest of the content in the meantime so I’m across what you’re saying. I definitely wouldn’t expect to see “Nero show approved and supported athlete” stickers on their bikes 😂 keep it up anyway, I’ll leave the podcast ideas to you guys haha
Oh and we’re all here for the overreactions….
@@Jpearse1gday mate.
Rapha is just insanely expensive. I’d rather spend that premium on shoes, glasses, helmet, and ear buds.
...and very dull designs usually with big shouty logos. No thanks!
rapha screams pretentious clout chaser... no thanks
It's the flagship of cyclist elitism, overpriced and with unpleasant dull colors and design
Rapha expensive? And what do you call MAAP, Pas and Attaquer...cheap?
@@checkoutmygregs if you are impressed with that stuff and want to clout chase paying more for lycra go do it buddy, its all stitching by chinese and vietnamese workers getting slave labor by a failing company with poor designs and even worse perception of false elitism for mediocre product
C: Can I have a guess.
J: Have a guess.
C: Im going to say~~~…418,000 views
J: 746,000
C: Yeah… pretty close.
😂😂😂😂
Kit: I pimp my radio show with custom kit from Jakroo that I designed. It's a conversation starter, which was the whole point. A Jersey costs me $83 US.
MyWhoosh Worlds: I'm with Chris, Zwift would be relatable.
Outrider: I bought in last week.
Post-race debrief: Please don't call me.
Society Cycling kit out of Perth is awesome. Really top quality kit at very good price. Best kit I have owned.
Rapha bleeding money is likely through their retail stores. Brick and mortar is a money pit in today's market, and a lot of the ones I've been in are empty, but fully staffed with a cafe and all the things. There is also soooooooooo much competition in this market now with MAAP, PAS, Ornot, Grin27, Pedla, Pedal Mafia, Gorewear, Castelli, PEDALeD, Attaquer, Assos, Santini, Rule28 just to name a few - everyone and their dog has a kit brand, and it didn't used to be like that.
10k aud for the frame here. Off their bloomin chops. 😂
My brother’s a lawyer who rides twice a month on weekends. He’s north of 100kg, on a Giant TCR Advance SL with Lightweight and Xentis wheels. He drools frothes DT Swiss wheels. I hope that answers your question on DT, Jesse 😁
51:00 I am not sure if this is only me, but I don't really like Rapha... just because they promote low-viz jersey that has 2 reflective stripes on it. It might be a fashionable design but I really hate people on it complain safety on bikes. In Japanese cliche we often say "Red traffic light doesn't feel dangerous when ignoring it with other people". I feel Rapha really promotes that by creating a community thing while promoting those non-safer kit. Might not apply to racing side of their kit though.
Thank you for the Ironman mention!
"What have DT Swiss done?" Maybe it's that they can trace their history to a company from the 17th century and have a reputation for making bombproof wheels.
I empathize on not wanting to let go of your long boi stem or use spacers but going to the S5 has a bit of similar issues and I imagine this Dare thing is very similar. Before I got the S5, friends said it takes quite a while to get your fit down. The Dare seat post sled thing already looks better than S5 right away for fitment. If looking at these true aero bikes, you may have to disregard your traditional ideas of what your stem length should be. The aesthetics of using spacers is also not fun on these new aero stems. I went with the larger size S5 and must admit, while it may fit me nicely with a 100 stem, I'd like to go lower (head tube) with a longer stem but then you got a bunch of spacers if it doesn't work out and the gaps between sizes is pretty massive (51cm then 54cm)
Awesome work Jesse and Chris another well done podcast just running down the track. I know you guys both are into tech and I love cycling tech as well. Just curious to know how you and Chris especially how Chris has his Garman set up with his Pages and data field it is running, keep up the great work
Much appreciated!
I’m in on the Pressure sensors too!
On the cycling kit debate. I don't want to pay massive amounts, but I want good quality and what I have got from Siroko at the moment ticks the boxes and I like the looks of it too. One of the reasons for me Rapha has gone down in peoples thoughts because they started to sacrifice quality material. Started to notice it on friends kits after Sky moved on to Castelli.
The geometry of the Dare is indeed a mess, almost no one will be able to get comfortable on it. The cost is completely absurd for an unknown brand, it's the price of an S-Works. Dare offers zero distribution anywhere and zero support in the US so it's irrelevant for me anyway.
Road race fitting trends disagree. Slammed forward saddles and extremely narrow bars necessitate longer reach frames with longer front-center.
Saw the Melee today on my way home from work !!!
Double whammy! I'm norwegian and ride on MyWhoosh (and thought the e-sport WC was cool to watch) 😄
Jesse clearly has never done an Ironman to not know that yes, all bets are off once you get to the marathon and you just need to survive eating and drinking whatever your body allows 😅
"Stack" and "Fit Stack" are almost never the same, especially now days with all the aero tricks. Stack = BB -> Top of headset bearing, Fit Stack = BB -> base of the lowest position the stem can sit at.
@Jesse Coyle you don't need 4cm of spacers: the stem points up so with your 130mm stem the cockpit will be elevated.
RaphaCC member but their bibs are the most comfortable I’ve ever used. I like their boring designs. MAAP and PAS Normal are way too OTT
I am really looking foward to the new van rysel all out aero bike. If they release that at a good price it will be sick!
Peaks the time cuts are your enemy. For us mere mortals dancing with Lanterne Rouge. I was at 172 klm and was told Sag wagon is coming. Will be there next year to finish.
The geo is on geometry geeks already for the Dare, you've got to be stretch Armstrong to run this thing slammed.
Concerning the Dare: I was looking into getting the Simplon Pride but its stack was also way too low for me. I would have basically had my current position in the drops be the position on the hoods on the SImplon. The Dare seems similar being several cm lower.
I read that Simplon is niw defunct (or soon to be out of business). One look at this DARE frame and I immediately thought this looks an awful lot like the Simplon. Perhaps it would be a good replacement given how aero it is.
Unfortunately i live in the USA, so will probably never see one of these for sale.
I ride mywhoosh. The Zwift bells and whistles aren't sufficient to tempt me when a free option is at least 80% as good. I'm not a racer though
You guys should get Jean-Paul Ballard from Swiss Side on to talk wheel aerodynamics
Because he can "see aero" ;)
1:27:18 Is there a video or raw footage of that race? I would like to watch it on the indoortrainer
Run the pirelli 40s! very interested to hear your take
Hope what kit you buy doesn't say anything about me. I wear Ali Express jerseys. $55 delivered, but then again in this rig it all looks great 😂
Re Rapha, I wonder whether their downfall is also linked to them stopping sponsoring “the English” cycling team (sky/ ineos). I did a Rapha cycle tour with them 11 years ago and there were quite a few Englishmen with all the kit (I mean everything!) because it was “the best of British”. Speaking more personally, I have plenty of Rapha kit, rain coat, gillet, wet weather gloves. It’s all 5+ years old, it hasn’t worn out, it’s still in the classic style; so there’s no point upgrading/ replacing.
fair cop to KB in the Ironman but have you seen the size of him ? Yes he's Norwegian, the new uber athlete breed, but my mates and I reckon he is a closet Krispy Kreme donut eater - and his imitation of Linda Blair was actually him purging a heap of donuts and rock cakes as well as some caramel flavoured milk. I've eaten my fair share of 7-11 sausage rolls so I know what I'm talking about. Great shout out you guys about Luke Tuckwell getting a start in the RB U/23. No doubt as he's from NSW - he wouldn't get a mention from the SBS/ABC/Melbourne cycling aficionados because he hasn't ridden on Beach Road, or done a Footscray CC crit yet. Ciao
Can’t wait to see the Dare on the Oompa Loompa podcast 😂
Regarding the DARE geometry, can the steep seat post angle together with the range of fore aft adjustment be part of the puzzle? So that you can getaway with a longer reach bike.
his issue is that in Jesse's stack size the reach is too short, is this a remedy for his short reach problem?
@ yeah I think so. Pick the right stack size and slam the saddle forward, then fitting a normal stem length should be possible, no?
@@rejeancomeauJesse has a “traditional” race fit. Fitting trends are much more progressive in the last few years. The entire body is rotated farther forward around the BB.
Where I live, wearing Rapha means you ride a Pinarello with princetons and have a 150w ftp.
...and you work as a dentist or a lawyer
or your a young clout chaser with no style of your own and believed the hype that overpaying for lycra was a luxury brand and you fell for it while other riders laugh at you for trying to hard
@@tupacsgohst so many other brands cost more or the same, your hate is undignified and belittling of yourself.
@@checkoutmygregs go chase clout with your brands, its all the same chinese made crap marketed by different companies and in raphas case they have 7 years of losses of their daddys money they wasted playing bike clothes company. its not a mystery they are failing
I disagree that people have a deep emotional attachment with apparel brands. That’s what they would like you to believe but in 2024 it’s all about price price price relative to value. Most cyclists I know buy brand apparel ONLY when they are on sale & even then they tend buy the core range.
Plsss make the cycling fashion week colab happen
I recon the free to air thing is the fact the uk left the EU so isn’t bound by those negotiations
Rapha classic and core is one of the few jerseys where i dont have an issue with sleeve tightness.
yea right any jersey does the same for a fraction of the cost and you don't put out the try hard look at me vibe with rapha that adds no value to performance, its a clout brand that fails the real sport enthusiasts by trying to claim its so much better while proving its just chinese manufactured fabrics like all the others
@@tupacsgohst why do you care so much about what other people wear?
@@tupacsgohst sorry, what’s a ‘clout brand’ ? Seen it mentioned a few times in the comments. Never heard it said here in Oz 🤷♀️
Pedla is great Aussie kit, yes pricey but top quality! 👍
I was a Rapha person at one point, but they ditched whatever it was, some sort of 'aero' seamless knicks, and that was the end of that. I don't like all the seams these days. Some of their gilets, jackets etc are great. I agree with the boys, the quality was always there with Rapha. I have a few Castelli items that have been great too, but sourcing in Australia seems difficult. I've tried Attaquer, MAAP, LeCol, none of these seem to last like these others. I have quite an old pair of Assos that are in super good shape somehow still, their Lycra doesn't seem to 'age' like other brands do in my experience. So, I probably am just going to invest the dollars into a new pair of them to add to the rotation. Lets face it, these things get absolutely abused with what they go through, but they are super expensive, so when things last, that is nice.
Chris should probably look into some MBO kit Brand. Its really good quality kit and pretty inexpensive compared to the Major Brands.
Have you ridden the sl7 you are comparing the numbers from in the tour test Jesse?
Kit: Castelli bibs the best ive ever worn. Second place is top tier Pedal Mafia.
Lameda from China is very good quality and value. They have their own store in Ali Express. Bibs wear and wash well and much more comfortable than PM club kit
OMG Jesse nailed it. Wearing Rapha kit in 2024 says specifically nothing about you. Intentionally, "normal".
New Zealand comes through again! Kate Mccarthy won the e sport uci champs that you had no time for. 🥝
This Dare frame just remind me the first Cannondale Aero Sistem Six....
Dt Swiss is a good brand that isnt going hookless .... yet...
I am deeply offended Chris 😅, Assos RS bibs are the best on the market.