FM23 Training Analysis 2 - Match appearance, Friendlies, Substitutions, Team Performance
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2024
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I just wanted to tell you I appreciate all the hard work you've done so far. You are doing amazing job and I hope you'll continue.
Appreciate it mate, supporting words such as this gives me the motivation to keep going.
You did really well bro!
Another great video Max. Really appreciate your contribution to FM. Nice bit at the end of you in a pub in Melbourne - Australia really needs to have the chance (along with New Zealand and Indonesia perhaps) to stage a World Cup soon.
Australia is hosting the Women's World Cup in 2023. The Moroccan national team apparently is going to have their base camp near where I live, so I will be making some videos about that next year.
These videos might be the best thing i've seen on Football Manager since content for this game became prevalent on this site. Honestly incredible. Thank you so much.
I really enjoy your content, thank you. I understand that a lot of work goes into the tests and appreciate your efforts.
The balance between your voice and background music makes listening to this a challenge. Please consider lowering the music volume slightly or increasing your speech volume.
I lowered the background music volume few vids ago but maybe it's still too loud - will lower it more next time. Thanks for pointing it out
@@ebfm Thanks and hello from the other side of the world.
I assume it sounds fine for many, but perhaps others of us have different hearing or sound processing abilities. Maybe the equivalent of cilantro leaves tasting of soap to some. 🙂
Man! This channel is a gold mine for all FM players! Thanks for doing this!
Your videos are the best. The FM community needs more content like this. Keep it up!
This is such a wonderful channel. I really appreciate the effort you put into these videos. I love other FM UA-camrs, but it's such a nice change of pace and style, and I learn so much from them.
Your videos are really awesome. I really love the scientific approach you are using and am impressed by your work (as a trained scientist).
thanks mate, being scientific is the best way to play FM!
My question on this is how much of it is tied to match ratings. Players being subbed in at 45 minutes are basically guaranteed to get a match rating unless they get hurt, but players subbed in after 70 minutes are much less likely to get one. Those subbed in between 70 and 74 minutes will get one, but any subbed in after that won't get a rating at all. I wonder if it's the lack of a rating which impacts this most or not. Maybe you've answered in a later video I just haven't gotten to yet. lol
Fucking science, how does it work?
Amazing, as always.
I've not even got through the ads yet, but I already know this vid will be awesome 👏 😅
Fascinating as always. I'll make adjustments in my save accordingly. Are you going to test if your FM22 conclusions re training schedules are exactly the same or not in FM23 - ie focus on General/Attacking and Physical/Resistance schedules?
+1
Hey bud, I'm curious myself 😂 but it will take a while before I can publish the training schedule that is evidence-proven for FM23. A lot of groundwork (such as this video) has to be established first. Bear with me!
Nice work Max. There was always the understanding that game time helped development, but never the numbers to put values to the 'theory'. Hopefully the FM Scout saga ends soons and you can get back to posting your great work there as well.
1. 20살 이상의 선수는 시즌 30경기
15~19살 선수는 시즌 40경기까지
2. 친선전도 성장에 영향을 주는데
내부 친선전이 약간 더 효율적이다
골키퍼는 친선전에 영향을 받는다는 증거가 없음
3. 70분 후의 교체는 성장에 영향을 주지 않지만
70분 이전의 교체는 풀타임 출전보단 덜해도 영향을 준다
4. 승패는 성장과 관련없음
맞습니다!
Wow! Amazing work dear Max
Thank you for all your work this is amazing and if you do a summary of all your training analysis in one video it will absolutely go viral!
Amazing video, thanks! Would you consider U21/U19 league games as friendlies (for player growth effect) or would they count as first team matches since they are competitive?
Hey bud, I'm saving that topic for a separate video where I will be dealing purely with reserve/youth training and development. Stay tuned!
This is very helpful, thanks for your efforts!
👏👏👏
Superb work. Love dwelling into data like this. Hope that you will explore individual training because I have a hunch that it's kinda useless but perhaps that's a way to influence which attributes go up. Will be waiting for new videos mate
Cheers mate I will be covering individual training within the next few videos.
Individual training does boost the attributes you set it to, generally. You can see it pretty clearly and you will influence the final attributes when (and if) the player reaches PA. What's not very clear is if positional training does anything.
Such helpful information thanks for doing these tests
Love the content. Thanks dude
Amazing job, I am just starting to watch your videos.
I think on your experiment the players get more development from matches against youth teams than in normal friendlies, because the teams that you play the friendly games against are very weak (weaker than your youth teams). I think the case may have been different if the friendly games are against harder opposition.
I would also be interested in knowing more about the effects of substitution appearences in player development. Would a player develop the same playing 45 minutes as a starter than playing 45 minutes as a substitute? (I apologise if this has been addressed in further videos, as I am just starting from the part 1 :D)
Thanks mate, I agree with your theory regarding friendlies. The amount of growth could be lower due to the low Club Reputation of the opposition club.
I am also interested in finding out the effects of different substitution timings, but it's a bit difficult to set up the requisite tests. When I simulate the game, it's difficult to control exactly when the AI manager makes the substitutions. In FM24 I can possibly give it another try.
Please make a video with manager shouts
And here I am always substituting my prospects in around 60-70th minute to give them matches 🤣
So what I gather from this I should give the players I'm trying to develop 1 full game (depending on fitness obviously) every 10-14 days rather than 3x30 mins as a sub in the same period. That's probably doable now that I know.
Yes, it seems that full match appearances are a lot more beneficial than substitution appearances. But as the first experiment in the video showed, growth is correlated with the number of matches played, so substitution apps in 3 matches could equal or outweigh 1 full time match.
@@ebfm I've been playing fm23 pretty much always subbing in younger players and my experience matches your experiment. Players who often start reach their PA quite quickly
@@ebfm I think they might not be getting match ratings because of beeing subbed on too late. Would be more accurate to retry the experiment when subbing on after 60/65. Awesome video nontheless!
For the substitution tests, you can enable/disable substitutions from the match tactics
Where? I don't see any option to enable/disable substitutions on the tactics page.
@@ebfm in tactic>match plan my man
KUTGW Max 👊
Great content thanks
Good and nice work Max.
I visit every day in the hope that schedules will be here...
Sorry mate it will take a bit of time before I can publish the training schedule for FM23. A lot of groundwork (such as this video) has to be established first. Bear with me!
@@ebfm for now do you think your older ones work well? I've been using them and they seem to be doing well but I haven't experimented much.
@@afasia2341 Can't say for sure whether the schedule for FM22 works equally well for FM23. Given that the game didn't change much from FM22 to FM23, my guess is that the FM22 schedule will still do its job in FM23, but can't be 100% certain.
Daaamn, really great work. So does this imply that it's better to loan out 15-18 year old outfield players for senoir apps instead of relying on training?
Yes. Doesn't matter how young the players are. Get them adequate amount of match experience whenever you can.
with 5 allowed substitutions per match, I tended to sub my players a lot which I wil reconsider now, thanks Max. But this makes me think: what about the 5 starting players who get subbed - will their growth suffer much from being subbed? I have a gut feeling that the game places big emphasis on the fact a player is starting the match so the hope is I didnt slow their growth much by that.
Hey, I was also interested in assessing the growth of players who start the match but substituted off. Gathering the necessary data was a bit difficult because the game doesn't let you identify players who were substituted OFF the match. It's easy to identify players who are substituted ON because their apps will say something like 0(22). But a player whose appearance is something like 20(3) - you don't know how many of those 20 starting appearances were full 90min appearances.
Hey @@ebfm! Maybe try to see if you can use minutes played as a variable.
Hope you test under 23 league matches soon
I'm saving that topic for a separate video where I will be dealing purely with reserve/youth training and development. Stay tuned!
That’s a pretty wild result that being subbed in for ~20 minutes hinders development.
There's been a suggestion that players need to play long enough to get a match rating before growth can occur. Rating will be given to a player who played more than 15 minutes? which correlates with the finding that subs after 70' do not cause growth.
@@ebfm "after 70'" does that mean "at 70'", or possibly way later such as 80' or later? Seeing as it takes 15 mins of game time for a player to receive a match rating. So it's been theorized that a player needs to get a match rating in order to stimulate his growth from a sub. Did these players in your experiment subbed in after 70' get a match rating?
@@torjeuggen9771 It's difficult to determine exactly what time the 'cut-off point' is for growth. In my tests, the AI made substitutions somewhere between 70-80' and, since there's no way to sort the data according to the exact minute the subs were made, I had to group all of those substitutions (made somewhere between 70-80') together to calculate their average growth.
The suggestion that minimum 15min playing time is required to trigger growth is unconfirmed, but plausible. It is possible that in my test, players who were substituted at 74' showed growth, and those substituted at 76' did not.
I will do further tests in the future if I could figure out a way to make the substitutions more controlled.
@@ebfm Thank you for your response, and I love your videos. Brings substance to what was before just guesswork and completely changes gameplay.
@@torjeuggen9771 No worries, it's good to communicate with fellow FM players.
i just started playing again after years of doing other shit...
way back when we figured ouit that the game uses 15min blocks to figure out match expirience, and you had to have a player be on field for at least 2 blocks - 30min to make it count properly
i wonder if it is still the case
This is brilliant work. Do you think you could also test these scenarios in terms of minutes played as opposed to appearances. This could show if there are any discrepancies between a starting 45 minutes and substitution 45 minutes
Hey mate, that's also a test I'd love to do but such test will be difficult to set up. In this video I forced substitutions at 45min by making GKs start, but there's no way of instructing the AssMan to make subs at other timings eg. 10min/30min/50min. So it's a bit difficult to test.
If the young players have 2.5stars, I think they are good to sub in at 70mins. They may get a high match points, thus gaining a grow at reputuion & abilities.
not according to his findings
VERY surprised to see that players who play 45 or 20 mins grow a lot less, I wouda expected a bigger difference. Thats means its better to start players 1/2 matches instead of swapping a lot
Another great video. One thing editorial; the music makes it hard to listen to, It would be much easier to actually listen to your voice only.
It's been a common feedback 😅 I'll lower the volume next time
Amazing video thank you, answers so many things that have bugged me! One further thing I would really want to know in relation to these things is how the oppositions CA relative to our CA would affect growth over a season. And therefore, how would 15 appearances in say the English 2nd tier correlate to 30 appearances in the third tier for example?
Hey bud, the 4th experiment in the video (15:45 onwards) address this.
Scenario 1
CA of Team A&B = 140/200
CA of Team C&D = 100/200
Scenario 2
CA of Team A&B = 60/200
CA of Team C&D = 100/200
Result: Growth of Team C&D was the same in both scenarios.
League reputation DOES impact player growth, however. This will be part of my next video. So a player in tier 2 league will grow faster than a player in tier 3 league. But a player with 30 apps will grow faster than a player with 15 apps. So a player in tier 2 league with 15 apps will probably grow around the same amount as a player in tier 3 league with 30 apps.
@Evidence Based Football Manager thanks for replying! Sorry, I forgot that you tweaked opposition CA as a variable I the 4th test! Thanks for explaining it in detail though, really looking forward to the next video.
佩服得五体投地，牛逼
Hello! Thanks for your great job! I said about growth of players, who go to field from bench. But what with growth of players, who are changed? After which minute of the match, have player on field got the whole benefit?
Hey bud, not too sure what you mean but it seems that players need to play at least 15 minutes/match for growth to occur.
Players who played the full match had the most amount of growth, according to my tests.
How about b team appearances at one league lower?
Players dont get a rating for a match if they come on after the 75 min which will probably show why it has no effect.
Hi, first of all, thanks to all of this work, because it's very interesant! I always wonder if i should create with the editor an U23 team and add it to a lower league (Serie C as exemple) and control it myself or if the player developp better if I loan them in a Serie C squad.
because in the first try, ok they play in Serie C, but not on the first squad, i wonder if a player HAS to play in first squad or its just depends on the league itself.
If you can do this test, I would be very greatfull to you.
Hey mate, the value of U23/U18 leagues are a commonly requested topic. I'm saving that topic for a separate video where I will be dealing purely with reserve/youth training and development. Stay tuned!
@@ebfm amazing! thank you very much!
Appreciate the work. Maybe I missed it but I wonder if starts have any effect. If I start someone and sub them out at the 45 min mark or later does it have the same affect as subbing them in? Or does a start boost their growth?
Hey, I was also interested in the value of starting appearances. Gathering the necessary data was a bit difficult however because the game doesn't let you identify players who are substituted OFF the match. It's easy to identify players who are substituted ON because their apps will say something like 0(22). But a player whose appearance is something like 20(3) - you don't know how many of those 20 starting appearances were full 90min appearances.
I'd love to test it though if I could somehow figure out a way to do so.
So what we should do with our B/youth teams that are not in a league? Loan all the players and shut it down I suppose? I've been manually scheduling friendlies because well that's the only thing they can do besides few UCL youth matches through the year
If your B/youth teams are not in a league, players in that squad won't get any match experience except for the odd friendlies. Much better to loan them out.
I will be talking about it more in my next video but it is crucial that your players get match exposure somewhere. If they're not getting any match experience in the B/youth squad, loan them out.
Question about the 70th minute thing, I've heard that getting a match rating in a game is helpful to development. As long as a player is subbed in before the 75th minute they should receive a match rating. I'm curious if the 70th minute stat is skewed by players that didn't receive a match rating because they ended up being subbed after the 75th minute.
hey mate, other people have also suggested the value of getting a match rating. It's difficult to test though because when I go on a holiday, I can't make the AI manager make substitutions at specific points during the match.
Do you have any idea if international games (with national teams) contribute to player development? And if so, I was wondering if there was a difference between normal competitive matches, friendlies, and u23/u19/youth team games.
Hey bud, sorry I haven't tested the effects of international matches, so can't say for sure.
I'm guessing that the match experience is looked at for the previous month only. So if you have a player play 30 Games in the first 6 months and no games in the last 6 months they would grow less than if they play 3 games a month. So saying they shouldn't play more than 30 Games per season could be misleading. They would need to be spread out. Would need to be tested though.
I always wondered if player rating during match affects player growth at all or not
Pretty sure it does, and quite strongly.
Edit: but according to data... probably not
Hey, in the experiment above (15:45 onwards), when Team C/D had superior CA than Team A/B they would have had high average match ratings. Vice versa, when Team C/D had lower CA than Team A/B they would have had low average match ratings. Although I didn't actually record the match ratings of players, the amount of growth shown by Team C/D players were about the same regardless of the wins/losses, which supports the conclusion match ratings do not affect the amount of growth.
My fault this wasn't made clear enough in the video. I may do a clarification in the future that discusses the relationship between match ratings and growth.
@@ebfm thank you so much for the clarification and great videos!
The background music is too loud
I lowered the volume a few videos ago but maybe it's still too loud. I'll lower it more next time.
I am wondering if allowing them to play in a the first half of a U23 team and then subbing them on during half of the senior game results in the same experience gain as a full match.
May I ask what is your computer specification? As you did a lot of research, seems you need a really fast computer, so I would like to know your setting. thanks!
Hey bud, I own nothing special, just a regular PC. You don't need a supercomputer to run these tests. The will to find a way is all you need.
Are the 20-30 games all as a starting player, or could they grow the same amount if they get subbed in 20-30 times in the season is there a difference in growth and how early on do they have to be subbed ?
Hey mate, this is something I found out after I made this video, but apparently, players need to play more than 15 minutes and get a match rating to be counted as a match exposure. I haven't tested it but it does make sense. So as long as you sub in a player before 75min (can be a bit later, due to extra time), it will count the same as a starting appearance.
@ebfm Holy, thanks for answering. I just picked up fm 24 and am trying to learn all the things
If winning doesn't matter, so does individual match rating? (even though winning in general matters anyway for morale and training)
I didn't run an experiment specifically isolating match rating, but the experiment that measures the number of wins/losses will roughly correlate with high/low average match rating.
It is possible that match rating can influence player growth - a separate experiment will be required that strictly isolates match ratings of players.
@@ebfm Back in 2019 I think people used to say that low ratings would negatively affect growth for younger players but I'm not so sure about that now.
thanks very much for your hard work.
overall I have to say the results are very disappointing, mainly the fact that you don't help your youngsters much by subbing them in around min. 70 which I did a lot and thought I'd do them much good. Also, I kinda was hoping that friendlies would count more. Like in real life, when you have a friendly against a good team, why would it help your education so much less than a league game?
Yup, although my experiment alone can't be conclusive evidence that no growth occurs for players subbed on after 70', if it were true, then having 70' as the 'cut-off mark' for growth is a bit strict I think, because most substitutions are made around 70' or later.
@@ebfm
Zealand once said that it was important for players to get rated which means if you sub them just above min. 70 they'd get a grade and hence grow more. I guess the (game) reality is a bit different.
@@andreasaust1510 That's actually an interesting hypothesis. In my experiment it wasn't strictly 70'. The substitutions were made somewhere between 70-80'. So the hypothesis that players need to get a rating to grow is a sound one. I will need to test it out in the future.
@@ebfm
maybe but 45 min didnt change much. Overall very disappointing, it made me feel good to make an effort and give all of my youngsters appearances at min 70 (usually when my team was leading) and it was the thrill if we could save the lead then until the end of the match.
how about players that start games but got substituted after say 50-60 minutes of playtime?
Hey, I was also interested in the value of starting appearances. Gathering the necessary data was a bit difficult however because the game doesn't let you identify players who are substituted OFF the match. It's easy to identify players who are substituted ON because their apps will say something like 0(22). But a player whose appearance is something like 20(3) - you don't know how many of those 20 starting appearances were full 90min appearances.
I still haven't seen an answer as to whether u18/21/23 matches that are in youth leagues count as "league" matches or "friendlies."
It is counted as league - competitive matches if the league is active and playing games. Also worth to have it as Full Detail in Preferences
@@vasileiosalexandris thats a good tip. Have you seen evidence to support this? It seems like there is nothing concrete out there yet.
@@nw2918 What did you mean? If the league is active, then it plays competitive games. If it’s not, then you can arrange friendlies.
@@vasileiosalexandris I mean that there are several of the more prominent streamers/youtubers that posit that youth league matches count more like friendlies in terms of player development than senior team matches. No one has done the quantitative analysis on that yet. Notice in this video he specifically says "senior team matches."
It would make more sense from a game design and realistically if league games were on par with senior team games in terms of its affect on player development. I am just not certain if they do.
@ebfm thoughts?