Revolutionary Cold Weather Layering Systems
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- Опубліковано 27 лис 2024
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Learn about proper cold weather layering here: ua-cam.com/video/2JPxAo5lavU/v-deo.htmlsi=GI3pOugPQR0_L1qY
I was in one of the norwegian armys recon units. We could ski with netting and goretex uniforms in 20-30 minus. No problem at all. Its all about having good rutines, and do the right things correclty. Im stil using this method today while hunting grouse and moose in the highlands.
The idea of fishnetts comes from norwegian fishermen, and it is adopted by most of the nordic countrys military today.
There’s one big thing with the base layer that Soldiers make mistakes on. Under Armor for the last 20 years has made people think that their base layer must be skin tight. If you need junk support, sure. BUT for cold weather application, that base layer needs to have a loose fit to it so that you have breathability between skin, base, and waffle. That way when you get where you’re going you may have some moisture in the garment but it will be minimal. Little tip I picked up in the Alpine Course here at Ft Drum.
I actually hate skin tight clothes.
The german army shirts are amazing because they‘re quite loose fitted.
Thx for the info. I was considering getting rid of my size L Rab Conduit Pull on and replace it w/ a M. Great waffle stuff, but unusual loose fitting in a layman perspective.
Great tip, thanks a ton for sharing.
Skin tight helps it to wick better/faster, but also makes it feel colder when it is wetted out, because all the air gets displaced by water and the solid material and water are significantly more thermally conductive than air. If it is more loose fitting, you get some stilled air between your skin and the wetted out fabrics.
It's not really about breathablity. Breathability is primarily determined by the CFM levels of the fabrics, and the CFM is determined by the amount and size of void areas between the fibers (and contrary to popular belief, natural fibers are no more breathable than synthetic fibers, just depends on how they are arranged in a particular fabric matrix). The exception is unless the fabrics are EXTREMELY loose on you, like with a poncho, and you get a bellows effect where air can get underneath etc the clothing layer i.e. mechanical ventilation.
@@justinw1765 It depends on the duration of exercise. The effectiveness of evaporative cooling is dependent on humidity. Larger internal volume can allow for more evaporation before a certain level of humidity is reached. In short bursts, I suspect that baggier clothes are more comfortable. If you are doing a sustained effort over several hours, it probably doesn't matter either way.
Brynje has mesh top " with inlay" that has solid shoulders and may help with the cheese- grater .
Brynje is top notch, used it a bunch when i was in the norwegian armed forces. A cheaper vertion of it is also a part of their issued gear. Did you know Brynje actually translates to Chainmail in norwegian😉
I only have one of their tops. Now I'll be putting on my chainmail. Thanks!
Brone gelete “in Russian”
Chainmail, Interesting. Thanks for the translation.
I used this when I went to Ranger School in the winter of 1983/84. It was called "Norwegian Fisherman's Underwear" here. This was just before the advent of polypropylene "silk weight/base layer/wicking layer", and Gore-Tex. In those days thermal underwear was the white cotton/wool stuff shown. We had polyester sleeping shirts - the best thing ever - and five-button wool sweaters. Leather gloves with wool liners, balaclava hats and wool watch caps. In "extreme cold weather" you got thick wool overtrousers and shirts. And rubber pneumatic "Mickey Mouse" boots. Trigger finger mittens. Down sleeping bags. This stuff worked but it was heavy and soaked up water. The issued thick cotton/nylon fatigues were tougher than a two-dollar steak from a five-dollar whorehouse but were IMPOSSIBLE to dry. I think I still have some fifty years later and I'm still waiting for them to dry. This stuff was never meant to keep you dry (or comfortable), but even wet it would keep you alive in some pretty cold conditions. Since you couldn't possibly keep outer layers dry, the advantage of mesh underwear (not mentioned in the video) was that it would keep the wet cloth away from the skin and create pockets of insulated air. That's why fishermen wore it. I could only get white, had to dye it black myself. Oh and you cut the knees out of the pants otherwise kneeling on the mesh for days on end would eat up the skin on your kneecap.
the old German word for chainmail is "Bru(e)ne/Brüne" :) Like in Brunhilde the woman from the Nibelungen Saga. Looking forward to buy one. But I need longer arms+legs on those.
Yes! Many years of hiking and sweating in cold temps I've found much the same. Waffle or mesh next to skin , Merino Wool, loose fitting light Wool. Loose fitting allows air circulation. Polartec on the outside wicks and breaths.
Polartec 👍
When you say loose fitting wool. Could this still be a loose 200 merino 50/50 mix?
@@Dave0Star 50/50 is certainly more afordable but not as warm when wet. I have both but when I'm on an outdoor trip it's all wool for my base top.
But synthetic dry faster@@OldPackMule
@@moo4595 yes they do but what I've found (my opinion) is that they end up cooling me off too fast as they dry. The wool doesn't seem to make me as cold when it's transitioning from wet to dry. It doesn't smell as bad either.
I can only agree with you. In my 30 years of service experience as an infantryman, I can highly recommend the Brijne netzshirt as a base layer. Nothing works better for me.
Brynje is the best base layer I have ever worn for cold weather active wear in 60 years...I can not believe how it works....over that I also wear special forces mid-layer... Alpha by polar tech..this alpha or alpha direct blows away all mid layers worn over the base...over that a soft shell breathable hoodie...I'm good down to 10F...no more sweat!..breathability for days!.it's unreal!...just my take..I Live in the Adirondacks and winter backpack..
I am glad to see that other people have finally caught on to the "fishnet" style base layers!! I have been using a brand called Alclima for a while and they are awesome. Used them for Wisconsin deer hunting and also when going on day hikes when it's really cold -20°F and such. I sweat easily and this style breathes fantastically. Great video!!
With me, it's a choice between fishnet or the high tech attempts to do the same thing: Polartech Alpha Direct or Teijin Octa.
Fishnets are high performance and durable, but get low marks for social acceptability.
Alpha Direct 60 is high performance and somewhat socially acceptable, but gets low marks for durability.
Octa has the least stable insulating performance of the three, but it's more durable than an Alpha Direct and the most socially acceptable.
Hell yah Randall! I'm stoked to see you plugging Wiggys! His gear is the shit! I have multiple pieces of his kit that I use for hunting and camping. His single person bivy shelter is clutch for moto-camping. His gear is built to last too. Definitely grunt proof. Best of all, you call Wiggys...he answers the phone and will take the time to answer all your dumb questions. I have his fishnet underwear and also a few pieces of Brynje thermowool. I tend to run hotter with Wiggys so I primarily use it for late season hunting. Probably the most versatile of the fishnet imo, is the Brynje A-shirt. Not only is it awesome for cold weather, but you can wear it as an undershirt in warmer weather and it won't get sweat logged, unlike a common cotton A-shirt. The most versatile combo I've found for high output activity is a thermowool fishnet top under Polartec Alpha, with a windshirt for a shell. It's all about that breathability!
Oh man. I could go off on bad clothing and sleeping bags. I was introduced to Wiggy's a while back so this was foremost on my mind when watching this video. When the fish net came out I was like "Wow he knows about fishnet." then Wiggys was mentioned and I was like "Ok, now I know where he learned it. This video should help a lot of people".
Brynje is a much better product than Wiggy's. To me Wiggy;s is a knock off who does not fully understand what he is making or doing, just my opinion.
@@tomsitzman3952 Any fishnet will work better than regular baselayer. The basic and most important factor is keeping a layer of non wetted air between your skin and the next, wet layer of your clothing system. That, and greater breathablity, is what fishnets do and why they are better as baselayers. Next in line, is high void grid fleece that Patagonia used to (still does?) make for baselayers. Same principle, except that it is like a combo fishnet baselayer and light mid in one.
I have a Patagonia capilene hoodie which is similar to the waffle top, and it’s indispensable in the backcountry. Weight to warmth is incredible, and that layer under a gore tex shell is good for high activity down to mid teens easily.
I bought a Patagonia capilene hooded pullover maybe 20 years ago with a mesh back and roll down cuffs that convert to thumb holes or rolled all the way become mittens. I have never seen another one. I wore it this past weekend on an overnight bike ride from Hell, biking 9 hours a day in a killer head wind going and returning. The mesh back keeps me dry no matter the temperature. in a store or in their catalogue.
Wiggy makes great stuff. It may not be the lightest or the most compact but it works. He has been in the business for a long time and knows his stuff. I was in Grand Junction Colorado this summer and made a visit to his store and factory. Had a great conversation with Jerry and he gave me the tour. His stuff works. Physics does not change. I try a lot of different gear and his stuff just works. And many props and thanks to a guy who builds his stuff in the US and employees US workers. Top quality stuff.
Mesh will keep you cool in summer and warm in winter.
Summer: Next to skin + a loose smock or combat jacket/shirt on top that allows airflow....you may be too cool.
Winter: Next to skin + fleece shirt + Smock. The fleece shirt has to be a close fit to keep in the warm air and the smock cinched down. If rucking in winter: mesh + close fitting windproof shirt.....right from the start-line....people wear warm kit but have to strip off 2 minutes in....so suck it up at the start.
The Armadillo shirt is hugely expensive....much better option, my opinion, is the Woolpower Ullfrotte shirt....less than half the price and more effective. Wool/synthetic mix, lightweight meshy material with a towelling underside that transports moisture and allows in air. Comfortable, hardwearing and doesn't look at all odd worn on its own. Comes in different weights/thicknesses.
Brynje and Aclima are among the best. Not really expensive, except for dual layers, but replace piece by piece and you'll have for a long time.
Danish soldiers have been buying Aclima's Woolnet for years. It's a Norwegian company and as far as I know the Norwegians actually get it issued. Don't ask if we're jealous.
Good information Randall!
Wiggy's makes great sleeping bags, I keep one as part of my winter emergency truck kit!
FYI: We are issued undershirts that are mesh and ribbed to provide airflow under our body armor, yes they do help but in Texas you still sweat!
Agreed! I have used Wiggy's sleeping bags for 20++ years on extended horse-mule pack trips. I still use the original bag they are warm & tough!
Had one of those fish net shirts for a couple of years, yes cost a few quid but worth it.... also a good piece of non issue kit, the Buffalo shirt, made over here in Sheffield, again, costs a few quid, but all the NCO's on the ranges wore them, and they last so good value long term.
Wiggys is number one
Thanks for giving him the props he deserves
Aclima woolnet - yes you will look like a low budget adult movie star, but keeps you comfortable 3 seasons and stink free for days
Never did any cold weather exercises aside being stuck in the mountains of Afghanistan. We were all told wearing layers and accepted the pros and cons this method. I'm always learning new things watching your channel and challenging my previous notions. Awesome bro!
I've been wearing the Super Brynje underwear for decades, hiking and skiing in New England, and it works. I even use a short sleeved top under a cyling jersey in the summer, and it keeps you cooler. Great stuff. Lasts for years of hard use, too.
A large majority of people just have no idea about proper layering in winter and especially in regards to material selected and the difference it can make. I grew up in the Midwest and have been in some God awful cold weather in my days. I now live in Tennessee and the weather is milder, but still some pretty cold days in winter. I am a big fan of the merino/spandex blended base layers offered by Firstlite. I think they are 90% Merino wool. I wear the mid weight bottoms all winter and the mid weight tops (Kiln) are pretty much a staple for me as well. I work outside, so you learn real quick what works and what doesn’t. I ordered the Armadillo Lynx top on your recommendation and am looking forward to adding it to my daily use winter wear system. Thanks for your excellent videos and keep ‘em coming!
The String Vest as worn by Wallace ( and Grommit) is the original high performance tech base layer.
Appalachian gear company makes something very similar. Testers and users seem to really like it for the same reasons that you mentioned.
That fish net is awesome idea, i used to strip down and go, then layer up and down as i backpacking this is incredible!
Hey Randall great video!!! I own a couple of wiggys sleeping bags , they saved me and my GF toghed it out RIP JACKIE. when my mother board went on my heater 2 winters ago. They worked very well all winter after the heater broke beginning of February, we didn't have money to fix it till the summer. I highly recommend wiggys bags for the cold.
Cheers
Thanks for the post! Just reviewing my hot/cold loadouts in my deployment bag. Where I'm at, subzero temps in winter are common. Layering is certainly the key. I keep wool over the base and second layers. Of course it's all dependent on local conditions and your personal metabolism. Edit: My base layer is pure silk...
I love it. I don't get outside in the mountains in the winter as much as I would like to, but work outside in the cold all winter. You do a great job of showing alternatives to high priced work gear that make financial sense based on durability. Keep up the good work.
Great video. I grew up in Florida never had to deal with this. This was some serious good info, as I now live and work in colder weather. Thanks a bunch for this!
Coincidentally (or maybe not, who really knows the ways of the YT algorithm?), I just picked up a 28" long knitting board, with the objective of making a set of fully fashioned fishnets from cotton string, 3/4 length bottoms and long sleeve top.
Cotton was the OG material for these fishnets on the old school mountaineering and especially on the early polar expeditions, where manhauling heavy sledges of gear over pressure ridges, through drifts, and across open leads was all in a day's work, despite the modern "cotton kills" mantra. For those unacquainted, manhauling has been described as "the hardest work to which free men have been put in modern times". Caloric intakes of 8-10kCal/day when available still lead to wasting.
Not sure yet if I'll use butcher's twine or what. My local Walmart has skeins of 4-ply cotton which looks like it might work, has a pretty good twist to it, and is a bit thinner than the kitchen and garden twines.
I'll try a smooth stockinet stitch for the shoulder areas where pack straps and toboggan strap will bear, and a fine gauge rib for the waistband and the cuffs. I may put a patch of cotton canvas or ticking over the shoulder areas, as well. 3/4 length bottoms will prevent "alligator skin" on my shins when wearing touring boots or tall pack boots. Tall wool socks will be my base layer on my shins.
I have tried "black wool" long handled lambswool underwear, modern miracle fibers, etc., but still have trouble with moisture control and over heating when engaged in even moderate work (splitting wood, shoveling, recreational snowshoeing) in the winter. I'm hoping the combo of a fishnet base layer combined with a tightly woven, windproof but highly breathable, cotton shell (Ventile/eta-Proof would be great, but I may start with cotton pillow ticking), will be a game changer for me. I'm not sure if I'm unusual in this, but as I get older, I have found that I stay warmer if I wear less insulation than if I am overdressed. Probably I'm just a slow learner.
If the cotton doesn't work the way all the old timers said it will, I'll unravel a thrift store wool sweater or two, and build a set of fishnets from that.
Nice tip on the Armadillo stuff, though. That looks like the cat's pajamas for someone who doesn't want to fool around with making a set and has the wallet to cover the bill.
For anyone interested in old school approaches to thriving in cold temperate to sub-arctic conditions - hot tenting, toboggans and more - "Snow Walker's Companion" by Conover and Conover is worth a read. It's been reprinted fairly recently. I picked up a copy a couple of years ago from Ben's Backwoods in Michigan, when I also bought a length of lampwicking to make sourdough style snowshoe bindings to fit my Baffin pack boots to my milsurp shoes, but it can be obtained elsewhere, as well.
I love when you cover this this shit never gets old.
Bought a set of the Duluth ribbed base. Used them deer hunting in late December, warmer than previous base layers. Have used them snowboarding 5 days, simply amazing. Have worn them on 6 short winter rucks, again amazing warmth, wicking, aren’t nasty smelling, dry out quick. Wore them ice fishing again very warm. At $50 per item worth testing out.
I'm from Finland and very familiar with this issue. In my village was a dude that served in foreign legion. He used to wear pantyhose every winter, sometimes with shorts. We always tough it was a bit weird and gay :D But for what I have heard it used to be more common for men too before they became to be a sex symbol. I have noticed that weaved materials breath a lot better than regular fabric.
Mountaineering guy here. Always START COLD. If you have to shed, do it soon before its a problem because you have wetted out or because we are someplace that we really don't want to stop (e.g., an avy zone). At the top of the pack there should be a "belay parka" that fits over your gear/harness/helmet/etc. That should go on and off quickly. In freezing alpine environments a hard shell is a vapor barrier (I don't care what Gore marketing says). Go soft shell unless you expect the wind to be brutal. If you have a situation where there is a small chance that you'll get rained on still go softshell with a VERY light hard shell in case you get liquid water. My layers are generally (unless I'm really high) Capiline base layer; powerstretch 100 or similar (some with primaloft core zone inserts for colder days) zip with a hood that I can use under my helmet in a pinch instead of a balaclava (e.g., if the wind comes up and I don't want to dig into my pack); outer layer Softshell with over helmet hood (look for trim fit and pack and harness compatible pockets), and (as discussed) a belay parka in at the top of the pack. Pro-Tip: Look for layering options that have less insulation on the back than the front if you are going to be wearing these with a pack.
I really appreciate your videos, both entertaining and informative. About 14-15 years ago, a nurse practitioner gave me two allergic reactions to some new fangled anti-biotics within a 2 week period. I spent the next year laying on my bed concentrating on breathing as if I didn't I stopped breathing. Major bummer. I'm just now to the point where I am starting to exercise and lift again. A buddy bought me a Jimmy and I'm beginning to get out again. The info you disseminate is very helpfull and I greatly appreciate it. Your sort of like a life saver and I always believe in giving credit where it's due. Thank you so much, amigo! Incidentally, I'm a Vietnam vet! 68 years.
My late Scottish grandfather was on a whaling ship by the age of 14 . He loved his fishnets nets for the cold highland winters .
He also told me sirens n mermaids were real and as I was a virgin I was a threat to them fishing
Hahahaha
In mountain warfare school I just wore the marine corps equivalent to the ninja suit (we call it poly-pro) and my goretex shell when I was conducting heavy movements. As soon as I would stop I would put on my grid fleece and was fine.
I used this on bike (white color), long time ago and then took it for the SOF unit. I agree with you.
As a Norwegian who sweats easily and alot, nothing beats brynje Arctic Netting for moisture management in cold and wet when you have to work hard. Brynje has 2 layered garments aswell, but of course they are very hot.
My revolutionary piece of clothing was finding 2 layered Helly Hansen merino. It has a thin polypropylene layer against the skin, so its more hard wearing, dries faster and manages moisture better than pure wool imho.
Do you remember what the HH top was called? I'm curious to try it out. Thanks
There is a company called Indera that makes double layer baselayers. One of their lines has silver treated, 100% polyester in a loopy-airy matrix on the inside, and a 30% Merino and 70% polyester blend on the outside. Much less expensive than Brynje and Helly Hansen. And much less smelly than garments with a lot of polypropylene in them. Nothing builds up stench like polypropylene, and because the surface energy of this material is so low, it is very hard to do any kind of anti stink treatment/coating. (You could put graphene oxide into the plastic while it is still melted, before it is extruded into fibers, but I don't think anyone is doing that with PP yet).
@@marism6787Helly Hansen Lifa Merino. With 1/4 zip. Lasts years.
Brynje is the best!!!! They have a Brynje USA in Idaho.
Due to prudent preparedness, I found myself packing a deer out of the western slopes of the rockies in loafers, cackie shorts and a long sleave cotton t shirt. It was a hard lesson I will never forget. This is great info, I am going to have to try the fetish layer and dilla shirt.
Amazing! Thank you so much for sharing this better method to stay warm but not wet when working hard in the cold. 👍
Love Armadillo's stuff, small enthusiastic company and have some of the best socks I've worn. Would recommend!!
Wool is the only material that will keep you warm even if it is wet. I used this layering system when I used to throw trash for a living. When you work outside there's no place to hide
Brynje is great. Their most cost effective item is the XC-suit which is all one piece.
There's also alternative brands peopple might wanna look at:
- Svala (my favorite)
- Aclima
- HÄRKILA
Personally I am frugal and only use my Svala on specific trips, to extend it's lifetime.
What I use most often is
- Cycling inner mesh clothing. skin tight. Summer - tank top; Winter/Fall/Spring - longsleeved. Tshirt mesh under casual clothes year round, and during most Spring/Fall sports.
- MTB inner shorts (with antibacterial padding)
- Women's fishnet stockings (also used by some American Footbal players) for winter and under casual clothes.
I have a wiggys sleeping bag and can attest to the quality. The old timer owner is a hoot.Very strong opinions and seems like he’s been excommunicated from the retail outdoor community. They don’t take kindly to his debunking.
I have been running fish nets with merino t shirt over that in freezing temperatures with great success, if its windy or raining, I run a shell instead of the t shirt. Pants with side vents make a big difference too
Love Wiggys. Love fishnet. Have lots of his stuff. Among other advantages it keeps the cold wet shirt from plastering to your back.
Very good point
This is some legit information that is hard to find. Thank you for the effort put into this - it's a surprisingly difficult topic to get this level of information about. Never heard about the fishnet stuff. Appreciate the effort you put into it and sharing the thoughts in the way you did. Makes sense to me.
Great vid !
Merino / layer / second set dry socks for camp / sleep cool & don’t sweat into layers or bag …. Prevent active sweating into layers of super active during the day. Keep those vents open on the gortex if sweating / wash that foot sweat & salt off feet prior to slipping on sleeping socks. Yes- merino works, doesn’t smell and will keep you warm when wet. If you are moving a lot and have too many layers, won’t matter if poly or merino etc as everything becomes soaked. Start your day chilled and not overdressed & sweating ….
As far as old school - read diaries of Norwegian 🇳🇴 Roald Amundsen. Think loose fitting shells or Anorak style jacket were moisture can flow without getting trapped when active.
I agree man, fish net works great for first layer and drys relatively quickly. I’ve tested this in northern Canadas sub Arctic / low Arctic and high Arctic Greenland 🇬🇱 Norwegian camping 🏕️ / Nepal 🇳🇵- still find waffle tops bit too warm if carrying a large load while heart rate pumps. Merino is amazing but wears out fast ….agree
Thanks Randall! That was some very interesting information. Ill be looking into the fish net base layers for this winter. 2 back to back knee replacements healing slowly. And im really looking forward to some winter rucking and hammock camping. Cheers from BC Canada.
You’ll be healed before you know it mate . Take it easy and breathe lots n trust that you’ll be ruckin before ya know it
You’re doing better than you think you are - I just feel it :)
Angels be with ya
I work SAR in central Colorado in the winter time. My current layering system up top is: OR Alpine 1/4 zip, Patagonia mens R2 or Melenzana 1/4 zip,(if it's cold enough) enlightened equipment Apex synthetic jacket, and black diamond Recon jacket. I typically havr a helmet on but if not I wear a beanie on top of the OR ninja-clava that covers my face. I find this set up works great weather I'm back country skiing, doing technical work, or just sitting down to about -50f. 1/4 zips are kind because they allow you to vent a significant amount of heat regardless of what pack or harness you have on.
I've switched out all my cold weather Military gear out for Wiggy's. You can't beat his products. Plenty of information on his website to back up his claims and testimonials . The fishnets run small, so order up a size. No one can beat his sleeping bags.
Normally i dont just go off the cuff on a gear review and get the jones to buy some shit. Especially something expensive.
But you poped this video out the night after a debrief for my SAR team.
We had a callout and did have a wickaway base layer, a synthetic hoody, and a light vest. callout search at +4500ft desert mountain terrain with some mild winds but huge temp drop from desert basin. Op went overnight. Turned into a recovery (bummer for bad intel) but that base layer nearly got me whinging like a little girl everytime we stopped. No kidding by the time we wrapped i dont know if i had another 2hrs in me. for me the cold crept in fast and it took a long longbtime to get heat back. It was almost like i had been sprayed with a sprinkler then went to a walk in fridge. Seemed like Randal is just 'yeah, it gets cold.' Go figure amature versus lifelong pro grunt. But i was alright compared to most.. Had teams fall off. Hense our aar was ruthless on our lack of preperation.
But we added a bunch of med and sustainment gear to our packs this year so im not looking to add a 2lb fleese lined sweater that will make me do the hookey pookey as i over heat and cool off. Vs a regulating top that keep it lite in the pack and warm on the body. Just not brave enough to be the first dude on the team to wear fishnet shirts bro... Just not ready for that kind of smoke.
So adding a breathable layerbunder a duty shirt may be the closest i can get to a magic bullet unless i try a handful of shrooms and viking honey meade like those nordic boys do. Skoll!
A very informative video. Thank you. The midlayer topic you're discussing I've seen used by one company doing similar product for the weight maniacs where the warmth to weight ratio has to be top notch. Haven't thought how it transports moisture. Again thank you for this great video
I love your content. Great video.
Just as general info for anybody interested… I must say that if you are “ringing your clothing out” from sweat… take that clothing off… you’re wearing too much/overheating… if possible. Think of it like this… your insulation needs to be protected from moisture (rain, perspiration, spilt coffee, etc) from in or out. It’s ok to be wearing nothing besides an insulated shell… or nothing at all (do not get sunburned or damage your skin however). If you need to swim across a small body of water… do it naked… keep your clothing dry.
As you stated… correctly… in or out of a military formation… sometimes you just get wet. In extreme cold… especially if around water (like a river or lake)… you need to carry REDUNDANT INSULATION (dry socks, dry second hat, dry upper body and lower body insulation etc… how much is really dependent on truly how cold of temps you are dealing with. At -10 degrees F… you really need a lot more weight in a ruck… ALOT ALOT MORE. Meaning completely waterproof and separate insulation and capable of keeping you alive (even if uncomfortable) if everything you are wearing is completely submerged.
The lightest weight helly Hansen Lifa base layers are good in winter , they’re non-thermal so they don’t cook you and they’re a mesh pattern , not quite fishnet but not a tight weave material either.
Armadilla! LOL. Glad to see you haven’t lost your upbringing! Thanks for keeping us informed on gear that works. Thought you might have come home for Cruisin The Coast. If you had I’d be buying you a round or two. Stay well!
I was wondering about the nordic mesh cold weather surplus gear, now I know. Awesome!
I wore wool fishnet top and bottoms on through hike in sierras in the 1980s. Worked great in hot and cold weather. Traps a layer of warm air when not miving much and breathes for real. Elevation from a 1000 feet to 14000 on mt Whitney and when i was in germany in 1980s in 2nd Cav wore it under flight suit in colder months and when just going places or skiing etc. Worked great there too.
1969 Colin Fletcher's The Complete Walker spends 2 pages discussing fishnet underwear and it's virtues. In version III he gives more detail. Works great for tough mountain backpacking or cross country skiing.
I still have that 1969 copy in my library, with the drawings of fishnet next to chain link armor. That book introduced me to a long love affair with fishnet.
I was wondering this very thing. If it works so well on the upper body, do people make it for the lower body?
Yes the do, or did. @@cbbbbbbbbbbbb
We used to trade with our fire crews for their String base layer before we went to the arctic, made a massive difference in keeping warm.
Let me preface with I live in Alaska, I go ice fishing and trapping in -40 ambient or worse, I run 30 miles one way on a snowmachine to my buddies cabin and the windchill is brutal and will absolutely kill you, keep in mind a lot of the state has no cell phone reception. Skin tight clothing is the enemy, anything that restricts loft or dead air spaces totally defeats any layering you are doing and also hinders wicking. I wear oversized layers with a wind breaker on the outside and I’m fine except for my head, I hate full head and face helmets so my face usually freezes, my eyes will freeze half open but my body is warm. I run loose thick wool socks and bunny boots and wool liners and surplus arctic mitts on my hands, totally fine, even out for 8-12 hrs a day, I’ve done over 24 hrs out in -20 mostly stationary or at least with not a lot of physically active movement on a frozen lake and been just fine. Good base layers, lots of dead air space and a good outer shell and you won’t have a problem.
As a vet,i sweat more now,but... as an 18yr old Grunt,i dont recall sweating all that much,our layering was a jumper thick type Aus issue,and standard what you yanks call a pixie shirt long sleeve.This would lock the heat in.If your having trouble 'exercising'/tactical manoeuvres in your layers,then i would humbly suggest you get fitter.
Rocked the mod “crazy jakes” broe poly pro in ranger school from Nov 98- Jan 99.
Outside of us in the 75th and SF IN late 1990s…no one else had the first gen spear gear / sleeping system. We were lucky.
silk union, blue johns, and down vest with hood, all with buttons or zippers. I add a headband so I can pull the hood and not freeze my ears. Keep your feet and hands warm.
Thanks. Interesting and really helpful. May your base layers never wear out!
I suppose one could sew some tulle on the insides of their baselayer. Might be worth the effort for those who are into the MYOG thing.
Glad you brought this up. Very interesting...first time I've heard of this.
Really interesting. The fishnet tops are worn a lot in Jamaica. Obviously, cold isnt a factor but the breathability and vapor transfer seems obvious.
Give him one! 🫱🏻
The synthetic base layer is now a commodity item which can be bought at BiMart. It serves as a time buffer, of the evaporative cooling process (traps the sweat). Highly effective for cold weather and high activity but not really a breathable option.
The PCU chart suggests at 30 degrees F and below, taking off the base layer after your active period ends, and adding a fleece and Happy Suit/Marshmallow suit/ Belay Jacket & pants. Also suggested is not wearing a base layer below 0 degrees F.
Beyond clothing has an excellently breathable base layer called the Aether L1/A1, it’s made of the Micro version of grid fleece.
🎶 “Meet me down by the railroad track, track.”🎶
I remember getting issued gortex and “buffalo” liner, along with polypropylene.
It’s was all NEW at the TIME. We were told it was all made from recycled plastic bottles.
You should try silk liners. Especially silk turtlenecks. Cheap silk from China has been around quietly since the 80's, and way before that it was pricey ski liners.
Just make sure that if you buy colors, you prewash them to get the copious dye out.
Fishnet works. And you can look good. For the ladies too. Well, if you're in good shape. Lol. Thanks Grunt. Excellent information. Cheers 🍻
the fishnet gave me bruised parts on the body under heavy loads over long tracks
I take just a normal hotweather running shirt, and above the wavel top from Defcon 5 (which we sold many to soldiers). If it is extrem cold, I take 2 layers of wavel under layer and on top, when I have a hiking stop, I use some windbreaker. If I stop for longer (OP/tent time/etc.) Iuse some Merino items, as long I don't move and sweat.
Worked for me, as a easy freezing guy, down to -22 °C.
i had one of those fish net tops about 30 years ago, used it alot ... until a band called 'right said fred' (go do a search) came out ... and they wore them, my friends ragged me something chronic ... in the end i dumped the shirt,
😂😂
Its an open door, that it is a good idea, to look at traditional clothing!
For extreme cold it make sense to look what innuits & Sami people wear!
They lives there for centuries!
The same for the dessert and tropical rainforest and so on!
Great stuff Randal. Wiggy's makes awesome stuff. I haven't, yet, picked up the fish nets but I have his Super light bag and over bag plus his booties and I've been down into the -30s. Only thing that got cold was my nose until I readjusted my mask. I'll have to check out Brynje for the fishnets but at the moment Armadillo is a little out of my price range.
Nate
I would have never known the different reasons for using a waffle top if it wasn’t for this video, thank you.
So ive used.my ECWCS multiple ways. No mater ninja bottoms, with or without eaffles or.many times just waffle bottoms it doesnt matter it does not manage moisture. I always have swamp a$$ and a soaking wet groin. Never managed mositer well for me. Never seemed breathable. It is warm and use it more for when im not moving.much and sitting around or sleeping.
Like your videos thank you for your service. I had 30 years in Armor & Cav
The ECWCS is best in movement WITHOUT the base layer
@GruntProof even with just waffle bottoms without the ninjas I sweat like crazy. I like the system just never managed my sweat well. To be fair I've always been a heavy sweater. I think I want to try that Armidillo Lynk to see how that does
We don't wear those bottoms during movement.
@GruntProof I get you don't. But I'm not worried about sweating during movement when I'm riding in an Abrams. Inside is either a sauna or ice box. No matter which bottom I used alone or together it still did not manage my sweat. They never pulled the moisture from my body. Your movement was very different from mine. Most of the legs just wanted to stand behind my Abrams to warm up. Now that I am retired I use then for hunting & fishing in cold weather when I'm mostly static and only walking short distances. Still waffle by themselves don't manage my moisture
Had no idea about the mesh! Although, the pair of long underwear I use for cold weather stuff has mesh on the top. I just on the back, but it works pretty good.
I had never heard of Wiggys and I’m m excited to learn of the company but I know I had seen some European armies with fishnet style base layers in the past!
Ever had someone tailor a combat shirt for you? I'm thinking of doing a mesh lower and sleeve baselayer, and then put a more substantial shoulder and collar on it.Might work well even in summer.
instead of the the ninja top I bought a merino wool top from minus 33. Its spendy but its totally worth it. Didn't even need the waffle top. Merino wool is thin and repels water. Back in the day i found a fishnet undershirt my Dad had for skiiing. I thought it was funny but if you wear that fishnet under a long sleeve it traps and makes pockets of hot air from your body. Legit. Look at old school knitted wool there's tons of air gaps for a reason.
Don't forget about socks. They sell the Fox socks at the PX and those are legit. Its cheaper to get merino wool socks elseware but as long as they're merino you're good.
If it wasn't so expensive, I'd like to try Eberlestock's stuff. A lot of it has zippers that open mesh vents on hotspots.
I’d see photos of Norwegian soldiers wearing these, but I’d never known what they were for. Unusual for sure, but cool
Alpaca wool vs Merino wool
-Alpaca fibers are hollow so absorb significantly less sweat/water
-Alpaca fibers are much longer so the fabric is much stronger than merino
-Alpaca fibers dry significantly faster than merino
-Alpaca fibers offer more insulation when wet due to the air within each hollow fiber
-Alpaca fibers do not shrink when washed or dried, so do you worst, they will handle it
Brynie offers tops with fabric panels sewn into where your ruck straps rest. I’m not sure if the other major manufacturer (Aclima? or something like that) offers a similar pattern but I would imagine they do as well.
Thanks! Here's a question. Much of the moisture problem comes from windproof jackets that pass vapor poorly. Some cold-weather jackets have zippers under the arms that are easily zipped and unzipped. That can create a bellows-effect to vent that moisture. Do you find them of much value?
Definitely
Years ago, wind jackets were tightly woven cotton and tough as nails, they kept the wind out and they were breathable enough to not get soaked. They covered the butt and let moisture out through the bottom as they should. Too much of the outdoor clothing today is made for urban outdoor want-a-be's and not people who really stretch the limits of fun.
I’m seeking the north west passage we found, rain deer skins with the fur turned inward is the best in arctic environments.
Nice, better than the nylons we would wear elk hunting back in the day
Sweat will kill. Unfortunately, I am a sweater, have been since I was an infant. I just sweat. Wool socks make my feet cold. Regular cotton socks and Solomons, I'm good. During hikes in the application mountains, I'm in a Tshirt literally steaming in freezing temperatures. This is great info but understand your own psychology and bring things that you can swap out or transition to/from quickly. I do get cold but I warm up quickly. Everyone is different. Also, in humid conditions and dry cold conditions are different. If I am in a western and less humid environment I will get cold quickly because my sweat actually evaporates and does it's job. The only way you will find out what works is to buy, wear, and train in your environment.
There does not exist a clothing system that can keep you perfectly in the Goldielocks zone no matter your activity level, but these systems do keep you closer to the zone.
Until someone invents a fabric that can change thermal conductivity on the fly, you're going to be restricted to a fixed range of temps and activity levels for any given system. If you're really working hard, you're going to get hot and sweaty unless you make a change to the system - for example removing a layer. Everyone hates that. So I would suggest incorporating zippered venting into the layers far more extensively than anybody does now.
There is no getting around the fact that you must make a change to the system to dissipate the extra heat when you're exerting, so let that change be opening a bunch of vents instead of removing layers.
It would also be helpful to do something about plate carriers and backpacks trapping heat and moisture against your torso. Osprey's mesh air suspension thing they do on some of their backpacks works pretty well. It holds the backpack away from your back enough to let a breeze flow through. It would be nice if the plate carriers could be designed with airflow space between the carrier and your body somehow like Osprey does it with their backpacks.
Thanks for the video man. I might have to check these out. Of course I just bought the waffle and ninja tops and bottoms.
Great video! Would love to see you review/see your thoughts on the Duckworth products. I own a number of them and really like them but would love to hear your opinion.
Awesome idea! Definitely worth trying.Many thanks!!🤠👍
Winter camping has got me stoked
Polartec Alpha seems to follow a similar philosophy. It’s more porous than regular fleece.
Lol a year ago you said you were done making videos about weather gear and here we are
Gonna need a link
I can't wait for the videos five years from now: "Remember when fishnet base layers were all the rage? We thought they were smart because people wore them hundreds of years of ago. But what we ignored was why they stopped wearing them..."
apparently norwegian military hasnt stopped wearing them