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“There is this desire to make darker antagonistic women sexually violent, but then not actually treat the violence that they do seriously.” I see this all the time, and I think it’s pretty clear why this keeps happening: it’s The Author’s Barely-Disguised Fetish. I’m being serious. Especially in media in which a heroic female character temporarily turns sexy-evil, it’s pretty clear that the writers are *playing* with the idea of a sexually aggressive version of the heroine because they think it’s fun and titillating. And the moment that the story tries to treat that sexual aggression seriously, then it’s not fun or titillating anymore. I think the author’s fetish is especially obvious in cases where the sexy-evil woman’s NON-sexual crimes are treated completely seriously, but her sexual assaults are never addressed because “lol hot dominatrix amirite guys??” And yes I am thinking specifically of Willow in BtVS when I type this comment.
This is so true. I saw this with Allison in season 3 of The Umbrella Academy. Her taking advantage of Luther only for them to gloss over it later really rubbed me the wrong way.
I thought it was realistic that Azula was not redeemed. The Royal Family of the Fire Nation is set up a narcissistic family system. Azula, as the golden child, received positive feedback from Ozai whenever she showed talent with firebending, domination, and cruelty. Her worst traits were cultivated by her father, and became a core part of her identity. As a result, she has a superiority complex and difficulty empathizing with others, and it will be very hard for her to grow beyond those traits. Maybe as she grows into an adult, she will heal, but it does not make sense for her to be redeemed in the timeframe of the show. It would've required a total rewrite of her character. I think she deserves to be redeemed at some point, as she is a victim of her father too, but I'm glad they didn't shoehorn in a clumsy redemption arc where it didn't make sense.
yeah i think the frustration lies more in the fact that it was azula who was written to fill this role and not zuko, and that a genderflipped version of these types of characters is quite rare. not that her lack of redemption is unrealistic.
@@hinasakukimiZuko from the beginning is the scared one, Its actually more progressive that Zuko was in part shunned by his father for failing to live up to a masculine standard of the fire nation. I think its an unfair arguement to critisize the show for because its kinda misandryist when looking at it as an individual critisism for Avatar itself. which isnt what the video is doing (from what ive seen litterally just started) but seems to be the nature of the discourse surounding the last air bender. You can critisize the general lack of female redemption broadly but it feels weird to critsize a specific piece of media, not for not doing something explicitly regressive, but for not doing something as progressive as youd like. There comes a point where the critique becomes way to focused on critisizing a piece of media for what it doesnt do, which can often lead to completely unfair disscussions that are essentially psudo policing art (im not chud maxxing i swear i just find this specific critisism to be absurd)
@@billyalarie929 I think its progressive for that boy to fully take accountability for his actions. Become someone peaceful, wise, and nurturing. Beg on his knees for forgiveness. And release all sense of ego (being literal royalty) to respect those younger and more capable than him (Aang, Katara, etc). Though male characters get redemption arcs all the time, I'd say what was called a "redemption" in the past was really just, having a hero moment that absolves them of past sins. Zuko's arc felt way more complete, nuanced, and sensitive than others. I think the point of the comment you're replying to -though- was just saying, its not fair to use Azula not getting a canon redemption arc to justify the claim that the show is not progressive.
I was the target age demographic for Avatar as it aired, and even my queer child brain felt there was more to Azula than what the series was able to show. As an adult, I can now articulate that I actually find Zuko's arc incomplete without there being some kind of grace to Azula (which I guess aligns with what the creators apparently intended with Zuko taking on an Iroh-esque role for Azula)
There is grace for Azula within the series, Zuko. During their whole final confrontation Zuko doesn't WANT to be doing this. He's doing this because he knows he has to. But I think even before the end of the fight he feels sorry for her because he realizes who their father was and what she really meant to him. Which is to say, nothing but a tool.
Dunno if Meg’s character arc is a redemption one. She’s basically being forced to work for Hades and clearly would rather be anywhere else. The closest she gets to villainous is dating Hercules to find out his weakness. Her arc is more opening herself up to love after getting so badly burned before.
it's a soft redemption arc for me. i think it comes down to the fact that meg was still willing to screw over someone who hadn't done anything wrong for her own benefit. even if she was in a terrible situation, that was because of a mistake *she* made. don't get me wrong, her actions are very understandable, like *of course* you would become cynical and want to look out for number one. her selflessness is what hurt her in the first place. but imo opening up to love again is closely tied to redemption... it's hard to be a good person when you can't see the good in anyone else.
I agree with this but mostly because when I look at these characters as narrative devices, it’s the fact that while Megara does bad things and is “redeemed” from it, she is written first and foremost to be a love interest for Hercules, rather than actually operate within the narrative as a villain.
i havent watched yet, but i was just thinking earlier today about how one of my favorite things about Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is how Valencia goes from being an antagonistic force and a "competitor" to being a fully realized character and a friend of the protagonist
I feel like this is a kind of redemption that isn't featured in this vid that's more a "mean-girl" redemption, rather than anyone doing anything evil. I'd compare it to Cordelia's redemption in Buffy rather than Faith's. You get these rivalries that do involve characters being antagonistic and genuinely mean, but the intensity of what they do isn't on the level of the characters Princess is talking about. Could be a whole other video imo!
@@tariqthomas9090TBH, everyone did on that show but next to Rebecca's arc, Valencia got a big glow up. In most shows the girl in the way of the main couple gets treated like disposable trash by both the narrative and often in canon (ie, Emily from _Friends,_ or Lavender Brown from HP, who Princess Weekes discussed in another video) but the show let her find an identity beyond just being Josh's girlfriend, who he honestly didn't treat any better than Rebecca).
Yes! Love that show, and its nuanced take on so many characters is definitely part of the reason why. Really loved the bestie squad by the end. Valencia going from mean girl who fights other women over a man to a close friend with a girlfriend is truly the growth she needed.
I’m so grateful that you spoke about Catra, specifically about how people are perfectly fine with Zuko while being against Catra’s redemption. I’ve always seen her as a very clear and well understood victim turned perpetrator, but even throughout the show a lot of people seem to not understand that she is STILL being abused? Hordak and Shadow Weaver are still abusing Catra throughout her entire time at the Hoard, and there is no one looking out for her in a way that helps her. The breakdown she has in the control room after she fails a mission (I think?) is so painful because she’s doing horrible things all to try to succeed for the only people she can get any validation or care from. You can see throughout the seasons as she’s quite literally loosing her grasp on her entire life and it’s really sad. When she got redeemed I felt a small bit of pressure get released from my chest because I relate to her situation and the way she behaves because of it. And I also relate to having someone accept me for who I am and give me the room to grow while showing me true love. I am so defensive over her bc I take it personally lol
I think people's main issue with Catra's redemption arc was that she ended up Adora at the end, even after spending so much time at each other's throats. Zuko had similar issues with the other protagonists, but his relationship with Mai was depicted as generally amicable.
@@ThePrincessCHthat’s so wild to me because even though catra and adora were at each others throats, it’s made really clear that they never stop caring about each other. Adora more obviously, never stops loving Catra. And Catra’s more subtle, but she clearly never really stops loving Adora either. That’s why Adoras’ perceived betrayal hurts her so much and fuels so much of her actions. I don’t think it’d be extreme to say that their love for each other is one of the main through lines of the show, so in an ending where Catra is redeemed, what would actually be stopping them from being in a relationship? But that’s just my 2 cents, I think their relationship adds a lot of texture to the show and is a big part of what makes the show so good
@@thatrantinggirl7376 gotta agree with you, i saw the gay vibes from the first episode and to me that made Catra's descent into villainy make even more sense. She was so hurt and betrayed that her golden girl that she shielded from so much harm was walking out on her, and wasnt going to make things better for Catra by taking control of the Hoarde with her. In Catra's view, that was the only way to stop the abuse from Shadow Weaver and Hordak. It's pretty similar to Astarion in BG3 where he believes that he can only be free by becoming more powerful than his abuser too
@@ThePrincessCH I think the difference is that Zuko never really seemed to care about having a relationship with Mai, outside of teenage obligation (he’s trying to be a normal teen in that arc I think?). Where Adora and Catra essentially spend the whole show just wanting the other to come back with them. I think it’s very interesting because Catra and Adora seem to be fighting each other for different reasons, for a long time it feels like they don’t even know the other is arguing about something different. Catra feels betrayed because of Adora’s abandonment and leaving her behind, while Adora is frustrated and confused as to why Catra won’t leave the Hoard(e?) even after finding out they’re evil. Because Catra already knows how bad the Hoard is, having faced the extent of the abuse that Adora didn’t, and the abusive situation is all she’s known. I think Adora really struggles to understand that Catra is fighting her for leaving her behind to face more abuse, after having told her she’d stay by her side. Whereas Catra’s feelings of betrayal are keeping her from being able to see that Adora is trying to help her escape the situation now that she’s in a safer one. To me it feels very much like a natural step in their relationship because both of them just wanted each other back the whole time despite everything that happened. A happy ending where they didn’t have each other would feel a little empty^^ (Ty for replying talking is fun!!!!)
Yeah Catra and Zuko are compelling but I don't like Catra's arc for the same reason I wouldn't want to see Zutara or Zukka outside of AU fanfiction. That Catra and Adora antagonism was centered as familial/relational (arguable since they were friends/ not really sisters) abuse versus Zuko being codified as a spiritual/moral redemption not necessarily a healing from trauma. The bar for Zuko was literally lower (in addition to sexism plus his culpability and direct accountability were smaller) and Catra's arc bit off quite a bit more. Aside from the components that give me goose bumps I kinda feel a lot of the recovery healing was sidelined by romance plus there's the whole they're whole relationship circles around intense trauma bonding. A lot of people dislike Catra because of her actions but honestly i feel like by making her redemption a romantic one so much of her character was done dirty to get that iconic pairing. Catra deserved (arguably needed)to heal and unlearn things outside a romantic relationship and Adora self actualizing her self-worth through the confession of someone codependent who repeatedly hurt and was hurt by her made me squirm. Always me uncomfortably curious about how much was trying to get the fandom cake and eat it too and how much was just green lighted. Makes me really glad young me didn't see canon Zutara and instead got fandom Zuko. Fandom does very odd things to character interpretation on top of it all.... that's ignoring the whole personal relationship redemption is not accountability for war crimes but all trauma centered millenial/gen z cartoons have that issue (the tendency to use war and colonialism as vehicles to discuss family abuse but not doing either justice)
The competence point really is a hard nail when it comes to the difference between Zuko and Azula specifically. There's a lot to be said about Zuko's conflicted nature leading to his fumbling but Azula meets Aang in episode 3, talks to him for the first time 5 episodes later and lights his ass up 12 episodes after that. That's the kinda drive people hate to see.
I think part of why Regina went down the path she did is that she allowed her anger to fester. It's not just that a ten-year-old snitched on her, which, granted, is a ridiculous premise for a tragic backstory; it's also that she never allowed herself to move on and be happy. She was young and didn't believe another love existed for her in the world, even though she was proven wrong.
It wasn't the fact that Snow told on Regina it was the fact that her mother was so manipulative and controlling and didn't allow her to have what she wanted which was a life of her own. Regina saw Snow's telling as a last straw, her hatred is more of a projection.
I watched She-ra recently without knowing much about it and I found Catra really compelling very quickly, I feel like my youth had a different kind of abuse and trauma but she somehow reminded me of it anyway, so I was very invested in her relationship with the other characters.
Honestly Azula is the only thing that rubs me about Iroh in a VERY wrong way, like Iroh is shown to be this all understanding guy who shows kindness even to the guy that tries to rob him, but at the same time ignores his 14 year old (!) niece who he KNOWS will get treated the same as Zuko if she would be anything less than perfect at anything her father orders her and he still calls her "crazy" and acts like she got like this all by herself and doesn't show her even a tiny bit of empathy
I think part of it is that while Iroh is an incredibly understanding, compassionate, and kind man, he is still a man who has watched his own brother become a genocidal maniac incapable of remorse and sees Azula going down the same path and enjoying it. It's possible Iroh writing Azula off is because Iroh tried to steer Ozai in a different direction when they were young, but THEIR father cultivated those toxic traits in the boys just as Ozai has done to Azula. It makes sense for him to say as much to Zuko "she's too far gone, she's not going to want to change. She needs to be dealt with before she becomes her father"
Iroh spend most of his life being complicit with the fire nation and actively helping with the war effort. He only saw the the problem after his own son died as a result of his actions and even then he didn't fully turn against them until zhao went too far by killing the moon spirit. In what word would it make sense for him to write off his fourteen year old niece as being "too far gone"?
Could be interpreted as him seeing himself in her with the fire nation imperialist complacency and hating himself for it so he hates her because of their similarities. But idk @@juriori
@@Janary08 it totally could, but you do see how that'd be a bad thing for him to do right? My point isnt that him writing her off makes no sense from a writing perspective, just that its not a defensible action in my opinion
😟😢 moments like this I remember that "learning something new every day" is a gift and a curse. But also deeply parasocially in awe of how far she's come.
yeah she was one of only a few portraying her real age (the others are harmony and dawn). she’s so good, but i think she was put into some unethical positions too. namely when DB didn’t tell her how to “movie kiss” without tongue.
Having never watched Angel, seeing Faith's breakdown over why Angel won't defeat her juxtaposed with her (quite literally) beating herself up in Buffy highlights just how great of a performance Eliza Dushku gave in both shows, from the sassy bad girl to the hurting lost girl (with added props to SMG for successfully emulating her in Who Are You?). 👍✨
@@deaconlasagna8570she was assaulted on the set of a show and successfully sued and won over it. and then she married a literal billionaire and chose to retire from acting. i think she also does a lot of charity work so good for her (genuinely)
@@moonstone___yeah, the Buffy we get in those Angel episodes is a Buffy who is not the protagonist. She's flat out wrong, and she's allowed to be because in this story she's a side character not the Chosen One, and in doing so her actions are written in relation to Angel rather than the other way around. Which honestly is kindof refreshing. Like I love Bangel, but it is nice to see Angel going "Buffy this isn't your show, I'm allowed to have other priorities right now!"
I absolutely love Catra - her redemption arc and emotional journey are so well done. I’m also a messy queer who loves shipping flawed characters, exploring messy relationship dynamics. I’ve noticed how many people think (re: fiction) “bad boys” are cool and redeemable, but “bad girls” are total monsters
People have problems because catras physical and emotional abuse are barely adressed in the narrative and sorries she says are not enough for level of deep damage and manipulation she's done?? Remember, our community is not a monolith. For a lot of people like me seeing an abuser in a queer relationship have their abuse unaddressed isn't just a nitpick but in general another reminder in our communities we tend to ignore it for sake of appealing to normative majority. Catra literally casually physically hurt adora since they were kids, shes not even just an emotional abuser. It makes total sense some people want a complex exploration of that, because duh, things like this are real, they happen to real people. Adora is made up, she doesnt need help because she doesnt exist, but victims who watch the show and see catra be re affirmed again without putting in actual work do.
@@kinrateia I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I think people are absolutely allowed to dislike Catra, be triggered by her, and think her narrative does not adequately address the harm she’s done. My comment is only meant to point out the disconnect and underlying misogyny of how many people who like male characters who have done harmful things, but hate female characters who do the same things.
@@kinrateia Well, I personally disagree with everything you said and it is highly undignified for you to have said it. Stop misusing the word abuse because you simply dislike a cartoon character. It's a show. Just put it down, walk away, and stop talking about it. "Catra literally casually physically hurt adora since they were kids, shes not even just an emotional abuser." Kids get in fights, which is what actually happened in the show because they were five year olds. At no point in their time in the Horde does Catra abuse Adora, because abuse comes from having power over someone. At no point in their friendship does Catra have power over Adora. This is part of the double standard that people are talking about. You need to learn to not like things without pretending that they are in some way 'problematic'. This moralizing projection on any queer art that deals with messy themes does not bode well for any engagement with any adult media. And cruelly smearing any nuanced queer media as somehow harmful is itself far more harmful than any cartoon of this sort ever could be, even if it did bear some resemblance to the thing that you described.
I adore your shirt. I absolutely see the limitations in the Catra redemption arc. But if we can learn to love Vegeta, who fell FAR FURTHER, we can still love Catra.
Exactly. I don't see Catra as irredeemable at all. If Norman Osborn can apparently get the redemption he's seems to be getting in the comics right now, then Catra's is a walk in the park lmao. I always enjoyed her character, even with the writing flaws and all.
@@cosmicsongbird3047 I feel like, given how awful the writing in Amazing Spider-Man is at the moment, Norman might not be the best example to use here.
I really liked Scorpia as a character, but I always felt off with Catra and Scorpia's friendship, and how Catra was treated as kind of ungrateful by the fandom. Scorpia's toxic positivity, was an angle I had never considered before.
I kept waiting for the show to reveal/discuss that Scorpia was like that because it's how her family had tried to protect their kids' survival in this oppressive regime, and how that's not helpful/healthy but just a different maladaptive coping mechanism. But I guess there's only so much you can do in the runtime given
@@helenl3193 For me it was the princess reveal that threw things kind of off. Like even if the Horde manipulated Scorpia into joining, she still had way more power and leverage (including a magical WMD) than Catra going into it, so it was weird seeing her treated as a fandom baby instead of the conscripted child soldier.
@@helenl3193Scorpia’s parents were absolutely collaborators who sacrificed their young daughter to the Horde, and the Horde kept her deliberately uneducated, and ignorant of her true (princess) nature and power. That’s my headcanon. You’re not going to convince me otherwise.
@@MysteryDisc I haven't rewatched it and hadn't remembered that aspect, but you're right it's definitely a distinction that's often ignored in the fandom.
I adore the character of Catra. She shows the consequences of abuse and how this can become a vicious cycle. And with Catra we also see that she never stopped being put in positions where she had to fight for survival (Shadow Weaver, Hordak, Prime). But we also see that she hasn't always been "evil", through the memories we see that she also has good sides and moments. I once saw someone say "Zuko's story starts from the ground up, and Catra is falling down and has to build herself up again." and I think that makes a lot of sense. At the beginning of She-Ra Catra is doing well-ish. She is being treated horribly, but she has Adora and their promise to look out for each other is intact, giving Catra a safety net. But then Adora defects and everything crumbles for Catra. In Season 3 we even see a full-blown panic attack when she learns that Shadow Weaver escaped and went to Bright Moon (to Adora). Her speech in the Crimson Waste is also hitting hard. "Threats only work on those who have something to lose. But I don't have anything to lose anymore." Her character is incredibly compelling. And for me, her redemption/healing arc never started in season 4/5 but from the beginning of the show. She always kept noticing how fucked up her actions were, and so on.
YEEEEEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. these are ideas and conversations that constantly rattle in my brain every time discussions about "redemption" pop up. catra...faith...regina... azula...all some of the most compelling characters and personal faves. this is an excellent video, thank you so much for making it and adding this angle to the conversation.
Right! Why is she even on that list with those people in the first place?!! She was … what? Mean to Walter while being married to him? The other people on the list are committing war crimes and atrocities! Cersei murders babies!
@@eriklonnrot3578 Ikr? How dare she, *checks notes, object to her husband starting a drug empire in their backyard! Do Walter White stans forget, how destructive drug addiction is in a community? /rhetorical
When I made my very long video essay on She-Ra, I talked a lot about Catra and why I think her redemption story is phenomenal for exploring the concept of the cycle of violence in detail. Now I am planning to do another video on Catra after a few more essays. I like to say a golden thing about redemption that a lot of people usually miss is that *redemption is not deserved.* That is just forgiveness. Redemption is a long and gradual process with no flipping of the switch moment. It's a series of choices and a long learning process to reject toxic idealogies to lead a better life. I also want to talk about how I think some of the reactions to Catra's arc also show an ignorance of how some children go through abuse. I think some people have the idea that all young abuse victims are shy, meak, and passive, when the reality is that there are tons of abuse victims that display toxic traits just like their own abusers. The thing I love about She-Ra and Catra's character is that she teaches their audience abuse victims don't have to display their abuse in a comfortable way if they want a better future. Even if they're angry, prone to rage, violent, etc, they can still find ways to be introspective of their actions and find ways to make themselves better. It's also why I love Joe's character from Moral Orel and I appreciate how Dino and crew made what seemed like a simple bully character, a story of a child who has known nothing but neglect and anger finding a way to be a better kid when he found out his mother was still alive. The idea Catra should have been either banished or killed would have been the actual terrible message. Children who display their trauma in uncomfortable ways are not only destined for death and destruction. That's the idealogy of Horde Prime, keep in mind. Awesome vid. Also, the Catradora shirt. W.
I have this opinion with Chloe Price from Life is Strange, and how the fandom reacted to other characters with trauma, Kate was submissive with how she expressed it and alternate timeline Chloe is so broken she cant be mean, people prefer you to be passive and quiet about your shit, maybe THEN people will want to talk to you about it. Chloe and Rachel are loud and openly flawed to the player and that's why people dont like them. Even tho all the fan favorite characters are awful in the first game...like...Frank sells rape drugs hello?
@@CloneCaptainRex7567I definetly want to talk about the underlying bias against females too in my Catra essay. Let's not lie, a lot of the hatred against her character also relates to a general hatred of more active female characters. Characters like Lois Lane from MAWS, Skyler White, Mabel Pines, Teela from the Kevin Smith He-Man reboot sometimes get the same level of hatred and they're not even war criminals in their stories. They just take big issues with what the male characters do. Not to mention a lot of those same people also love characters like Vegeta, Walter White, and Omni-Man. Ie if one is gonna think Catra deserved to be executed I wonder if they have the same mentality for a character like Vegeta. Considering everything that saiyan did he is BEYOND lucky Goku isn't in the mood for revenge.
As someone with BPD who went through horrible abuse as a kid, some of the reactions to Catra's redemption arc are genuinely depressing. And some will go "Oh but it's just a character in a show" but people do talk about people with conditions like BPD the way they talk about Catra. It's hard, at times, to deal with the knowledge that there are people out there who think you're an irredeemable monster, no matter how much work you've done.
100% the idea of the 'perfect victim' is so damaging to all children who grow up in abusive situations and that's why I get so upset when people react this way to imperfect victims in *children's shows* not being punished for how they express their trauma. Catra sees that she has the power to do good and she uses the opportunity, and then she feels good for the first time and everything changes. It's such a good message, a lot of kids need that and frankly a lot of adults need that.
A redemption arc that always reminds me of Azula is Franziska von Karma from ace attorney. She was raised by an abusive father who valued perfection more than her own life, she had to grow up fast and take on adult responsibilities as a teen, she lashes out violently when she’s even a little annoyed, and she has an older brother who had his own famous redemption arc. She even has a breakdown in front of her brother when she’s finally bested by him, where we see her cry and admit how much she both loves and resents him and the pressure of her own identity. Something I especially like about Franziska is that her redemption arc doesn’t dilute her character - she’s just as abrasive and prideful but more willing to fight for justice instead of just herself, admit when she’s wrong, and let her brother into her life. Her arc is less about being redeemed fully and more about witnessing the start of a long healing process as she faces a life outside the context of her abuser. I think Azula would really benefit from an arc like that.
I really felt for azula, and it hurt my heart every time I rewatched the series and heard iroh dismiss her as a monster and beyond saving… like maybe she ended up beyond saving bc no one around her wanted to save her…
I think it's likely a trauma response from seeing the same spiral into egomania that Ozai went through under THEIR father's cultivation. He probably tried to steer Ozai away from the whole mass genocide thing when he went on his own redemption quest, only to end up in a position where the two brothers literally never speak to each other again. He's tried, and he failed, and he wants Zuko to at least save himself first rather than get dragged down failing to save someone who doesn't want to change.
An underrated redemption arc for a female character is Shayera Hull AKA Hawkgirl from Justice League/JLU. *Spoiler alert* Shayera originally joins the justice league as we believe to be the last of the Thanagarians a refugee and last of her people residing on Earth. Through two seasons she is one of the 7 original members of the justice league and forms bonds with her friends and a budding romance with Jon Stewart. Fast forward to the 3 part season 2 finale of Justice league and it is revealed that Shayera is a spy for her home planet of Thanagar and she was sent to Earth to keep tabs on the planets defenses and other crucial info. It also is revealed she has a lover high ranking in the Thanagarian military. The Thanagarian forces then proceed to invade Earth and Shayera sides with her people begrudgingly as the rest of the Justice league are defeated and find themselves on the run. Shayera has torn allegiance between her new home and old but ultimately sides with the Justice League and Earth but she now has been branded a traitor Earth and Thanagar. Thanks to Shayera's last second betrayal of her own people the Earth thwarts an invasion but now she has betrayed an entire planets trust and her status as member of the league is left to a vote that is split between the founding members. Before Shayera hears the outcome of the vote she exiles herself and quits the league in Shame as a traitor as she knows she doesn't deserve her spot on the team. She then flies off and ends her relationship with the man she loves Jon Stewart and is missing for quite a few episodes when the series rebrand into Justice league unlimited. Shayera's first appearance in JLU unlimited shows her seeking asylum with Dr Fate and Aqua man in seclusion. In this episode she is brought back to action when Solomon Grundy's soul comes back from the beyond and needs to be sent again. Shayera befriended Grundy before he died so this is personal to her. This mission has her encounter Justice leaguers like Jon Stewart and Superman and they work together and solve the problem. Shayera at the end of the episode finds herself being harassed by a crowd of people who haven't forgiven her for betraying the Earth and they are quite hostile to which Jon comes to her defense as he still loves her. Clark then tells her that she is welcome to join the league as she never stuck around to hear the verdict on if she was kicked out of the league. Superman tells her himself he was the decisive vote that swayed the decision on allowing her to rejoin the justice league. After that Shayera is greeted by a grateful mother giving her thanks for saving her child during all the chaos of Stopping/saving Grundy. She now is on the path of redemption and the message is just start with one person at a time seeking forgiveness. Hawkgirl now found herself back welcomed into the justice league but the status quo still isn't reversed. There are a couple of episodes that shows not only did the people of Earth not forget her betrayal but her fellow Justice leaguers. In JLU the justice league expanded so we an episode where Shayera must work together with new recruits one of which was held captive by Thanagarians in Vigilante. In the same episode we see the few survivors of the failed Thanagarian invasion play as the main antagonists of the story and are out for revenge on Hawkgirl. Another episode we see her having to come to an agreement with Wonder woman who held an even more personal grudge. Shayera slowly moved on from her betrayals, torn friendships, and sabotaged romance and regains her status among the hero's. She gets closure and acceptance while never fully being forgiven by all who were hurt by her actions. It's a realistic redemption arc and one of the best of the DCAU.
The Buffyverse isn’t perfect but I appreciate their take on redemption. Especially that it’s not about getting enough points to wash out the bad and then you reach forgiveness. But it’s the choices you make every day to do better even if people still hate you and the consequences of your actions keep biting your ass. It’s far more interesting than for example Star Wars where Vader and Kylo Ren keep making bad choices but then turn Good only to die immediately. Or cases where the villain flip flops so much that redemption eventually becomes unbelievable (Handmaid’s tale for example with Serena).
I don't think Serena's arc was intended as a redemption arc, but as a depiction of privileged member within a suppressed class.. But i agree with your comment on the buffyverse..they did it well when it came to redemption..it also didn't demonise everyone who chose not to forgive.
I wouldn't have been able to contain the scream of pure sapphic adoration that would have escaped had I seen Lana Parilla in the flesh, so props to you
Oh god, I’m getting emotional even just hearing She-ra Season 5 *described.* That season is tied with Return of The King for media that makes me ugly cry the most.
the convo about characters facing & hating their oppressors, and to what point it makes them dehumanise others makes me think of my favourite freedom fighter Kira Nerys from ds9 I love the different ways her character journey explores those ideas (and while the show sometimes mishandles it) I think overall viewers rlly get to go along on that journey with her in a fun & interesting way!!
I really enjoy Kira because her story isn’t really about being redeemed, it’s about finding peace. Like she’s not trying to absolve herself for what she did, she’s not even really regretful of what she did, she’s trying to transition to not being at war and having to take the most drastic action.
Thank you! I never understood why people hated Rose Quartz so much. I understand the narrative kind of uses her as a crutch of the past biting Steven in the present but compared to the other diamonds, at least she tried to leaen be better. Watch the show backwards and its like Rose grew as a person.
Like, not only did she know that her trying to start a revolution as Pink Diamond was never going to work, but I believe that in her heart Pink Diamond was already dead when she made Pearl stage her murder. People wanna act like Rose Quartz lied to everyone because she loved to deceive people and it drives me crazy
I was going to comment about Regina from OUAT, and I'm happy that you talked about her! I'm in the same boat, Lana Parrilla carried that show and that character so hard. Even at my height fandom obsession, I kept thinking, "Why have any of you forgiven her?!" But like you said, the show itself is just.. so bad from a critical viewpoint. I also want to say, what a beautifully realization of words you've attributed to 'I like Baddie Character, not just because I think they're hot" @2:45. There's quite a bit of baddies I *love* and I've never been adequately able to explain why. (And in my twisted mind, them having a Regina OUAT turn-around xD because honestly I could never love an actual baddie )
I love when you talk about Xena! I like how Gabrielle often acts like Xena should not be held accountable for her past actions in light of her new lifestyle but Xena never agrees with her and submits to consequences even when she could escape. I like how the show handles the two approaches to redemption and ultimately agrees with Xena.
I just watched the Philosophy Tube video on death, and it definitely speaks on parallel levels of this video. The question of who are we allowed to grieve is super interesting and important
Having recently finished Umbrella Academy, the conversation around Allison Hargreeves and whether she deserves a redemption arc plays into this. I found her to be the most tragic character in that show but a lot of people hate her. All she wants is to have a life with her daughter and apart from one instance, that is always taken away from her because of something her family did, and that’s not including the stuff that happens directly to her because of the stuff her own family does but everything she does is considered unreasonable by the other characters and fanbase.
I mean, she sexually assaulted her foster brother and it's heavily implied her ex-husband was only with her because she mind controlled him. Not saying she wasn't deserving of redemption, but these things go totally uncritiqued in the narrative. It goes right back to what Princess said in the video about female moral ambiguity and sexual assault
@@InRealTime769the SA was bad. The ex-husband one felt purposefully ambiguous in that it could be an ex-partner slandering their other half in a custody battle and how women, especially women of colour, are regarded as always having to cheat to gain success.
JUSTICE FOR KENDRAAAAA!!! I'd forgotten her name after all these years, she had such CRIMINALLY LOW screentime. So thank you for reminding me! Buffy's a hard show for me to talk about online cuz I want to complain about stuff I disliked (I was semi-forced to watch it with my dad when I was too young, like, age 13 or 14. The whole thing. Mega awkward), and places that encourage that tend to encourage overall woman-hating, which is NOT my bag....
As a sidenote of She-ra discussion, I always found it weird we're supposed to root for the "Rebellion" made exclusively from human (or something similar, like human-angel) royalty in multi-intelligent species world, where "not cute" non-humans are exclusively in the Horde, while "cute" non-humans are servants of the Princesses...
I think you touched on my thoughts as well. Azula was personally always my favorite character from last airbender. I dont think she needs redemption. But i want to see her grow. I want to see her be able to recognize and confront the roots of what drove her actions, what manipulated and effected her. And then be able to figure out how to get past those things. So that she can start defining herself in the truest sense. A lot of how she vies the world and others is because of what she was taught, or forced to think. I just wanna see her grow past those things. Which doesnt have to equal to redemption - per se..
I love that I am having a full circle moment with your channel. I am LITERALLY watching Buffy again right now and am on season 3 and was just thinking about how Faith needs a deep dive and BOOM here’s this video. It’s full circle because I discovered your channel a couple of years ago while rewatching Buffy and seeing your Buffy The Vampire video. Thank you for your continued amazing work and videos.
it's interesting how different cordelia's redemption arc is from faith's. i guess this video is maybe only about the redemption of characters who do evil things. but i think the mean-girl redemption of cordelia is interesting just in terms of her role, the role of class, and the way the show treats her intelligence and capabilities. (angel's and spike's redemption arcs are more similar to faith's. i guess willow also is a kind of female redemption arc in buffy that does involve killing. and harmony is also an interesting case?)
YES. cordelia’s arc is one of the best in either series. her last appearance is so bittersweet (and i hate the writers for how and why it happened) but it showcases how far she’s come so well. she’s truly in it for the good of the world, knowing her own happiness would be sacrificed. “angel, there are no people like us” hits so hard. i also love harmony’s story and that it isn’t really a redemption. seeing her try her best but unable to truly do it, or care, in the end is crunchy. unfortunately i have the same issue with willow that i do faith. where is the actual acknowledgment of and atonement for the people, especially the loved ones, they hurt? it isn’t that they did bad, it’s who they did it to.
@@matthewevans107 Years ago Charlie Jane Anders wrote a piece for Io9 about how everything people were criticizing _Twilight_ for, _Buffy_ did first, and I couldn't disagree.
Gen X did not grow up with Avatar the Last Airbender. Millennials and Older Gen Z grew up with Avatar the Last Airbender. Gen X were adults when Avatar first came out in 2005 but I agree that Zuko had the best redemption arc. Azula’s life was the most heartbreaking to me. I remember rooting for Zuko and Katara until I heard Azula scream and cry in anguish. It’s been years since I watched that episode but it stuck with me to this day.
She didn't say "grow up with" she said "brought up" as in who they mention in a conversation about the topic. And younger Gen X are most likely also Avatar fans.
Thats one thing i think was handled excellently by the show. Although a fourth season dealing with the aftermath would have given time to redeeming Azula's character, they still showed that the battle between her, Zuko, and Katara wasn't epic and awesome, it was tragic because she was an incredibly hurt person who couldn't understand how to interact in a world where power-seeking and selfishness weren't going to win her anything. I think people feeling she should get a redemption after that, although it isnt present in the show itself, are reading that scene as intended.
I think a lot of the hate for Catra is often that she seems to be really ENJOYING being bad too, as well as being good at it. She absolutely has a streak for destruction, and that immediate gratification of success is like a bit of a drug, so often that it's only later it settles in how horrible some of what she has done was... Which makes her feel like she's a bad person, and that's all she's good for, so she deserves to feel bad, but also wants that brief rush of villainy. It's always a cycle, a spiral of self destruction which I think the show manages to portray really well. It's really very similar to Faith, though I'm not really sure why Catra gets so much more hate. Maybe it's because it's a cartoon and more kidsy show, so people expect more black and white, so Catra being a villain most of the show gets filtered into the evil side automatically.
Honestly, Catra is the character I feel like best answers the "what if Azula got a redemption" Catra is an Azula who was treated like a Zuko until she found an authority who treated her mildly better. If you were to give Azula a redemption arc, it should be like Catra's. But I think Azula remains a distinct and interesting character because she doesn't have a redemption
@@fangsabre Azula's probably my favourite cartoon character of all time, and as much as I love her I don't feel like she needs a redemption. She serves as a good cautionary tale, and a suitably tragic figure.
I was also extremely into Once Upon a Time and it’s validating to hear you stopped watching around the Frozen storyline too They had a base to make compelling characters & stories, it just got so convoluted and they couldn’t stick the landing. I’ve thought about trying to get back into cause I usually like to finish a series I’ve spent so much time watching but after this I’m gonna let that go Thanks for another great video!
I would love to see a Bossa Nova musician-type resistance character within the fire nation. In Brasil's heavily censored and authoritarian environment, Bossa Nova artists resisted by choosing chords that were discordant over happy lyrics, implicitly communicating that not all was well. That could play really well in Avatar, given what we see in Ba Sing Se.
Loved this video. This is my own bias, but I'm hoping that after Arcane season 2 airs, characters like Mel Medarda get mentioned in conversations like these more across all of UA-cam. I can think of few characters who have been given more unfair treatment within the last few years tbh, and though it remains to be seen where she'll end up by the end of the story, her own redemption arc was telegraphed much more strongly than her male counterparts, and they get much more sympathy than she's ever gotten
RAAH CATRA'S REDEMPTION ARC MENTION🗣🗣 RAAH PRINCESS BUBBLEGUM MENTION 🗣🗣 but no fr. this was such a good video!! i remember after she-ra came out feeling just BAFFLED that Catra wasn't being gassed up like Zuko. frankly, I prefer her arc over Zuko's -- not that I don't also love and adore him and his journey!! But I just thought it was so bold of them to, like you said, present this female character who COULD very easily slot into this evil lifestyle and was GOOD at it, but had worthwhile emotional depth to be explored by the narrative and thus wasn't just relegated to that position for the rest of the story. i think too that like, on a fundamental level, Zuko's starting point of earnestly believing in the nationalism of the Fire Nation -- or at least, earnestly trying to earn the approval of his father by demonstrating said nationalism, -- was just not the same as where Catra was. like you said, Catra KNEW it was an evil world that she was a part of because she was a victim of said evil. she was wise to it. I think that her then actively CHOOSING to renounce said evil later on in the story, even after she has built up this laundry list of sins she'll have to carry with her and atone for as a newly Reformed Member of Good Society, makes her so cool to me. plus i'm the #1 PB defender that I know so i really appreciated you bringing her up too. people act like she was this Big Bad that Never Should Have Been Allowed To Do All This but the world of adventure time is just so fundamentally removed from modern day ideas of morality that it's honestly super commendable she ended up in a healthy state by the end of the narrative. imagine that, from the day you were born, you had another person relying on you for everything, and that the world is so barren of life that indeed the only "people" around for miles for a good minute are people YOU created yourself in a lab. who then wouldnt have the craziest control freak complex of all time to unlearn?? would most ppl be able to handle it better than her, in her situation? I don't think so.
I'll never understand how they constantly framed an irrational fool like Oliver Queen as correct over just about everyone but especially Laurel over and over again. Fantastic video!
Disagree about Regina. Her beefing with Snow makes total sense when you remember that she was forced into marriage with Snow's father/the king and was also forced to constantly be around Snow and act as Snow's new mom, all the while completely unable to speak up against her situation or express any anger towards Snow because Snow, as her father's beloved (literal) princess, held an incredible amount of power over her. Snow didn't realize she held that power, because she was young and self-absorbed (I love her, but, the self-absorption was real), but she did hold it, and Regina was subject to that for ten years before she finally offed her abusive husband. I don't at all blame her for being angry, especially given that Snow remained so oblivious to her suffering. I see her story as one of someone who is deeply oppressed by society, who is essentially gaslit by both her family and society as a whole, both of whom tell her: this is normal, nothing bad happened to you, why aren't you happy? Only for her to say: no, fuck you, what happened to me was wrong and I'm going to make it ALL of y'all's problem until you admit it. IMO the real villain of OUAT was Enchanted Forest society. (Which is why if you think about it, Regina's curse was, uh, kinda good, actually.) The sexual assault aspect is the major problem I have with her arc, but honestly that's a huge problem OUAT has in general. Regina was a victim of marital rape and it's never acknowledged as such, although I do think the writers knew what they were implying; Graham sexually assaults Emma and it's never acknowledged; Hook sexually assaults Emma, harasses her before she 'gives in' to his advances, and makes multiple rape threats/jokes/implications and it's played off as haha funny sexy; Emma tries to rape Hook after wiping his memories in a situation copied right out of Willow Rosenberg's playbook and it's never acknowledged; Rumple sexually abused Regina in the past and also fools around with a memory-less Belle; and of course there's Zelena's rape of Robin; and so on and so forth. With Regina's rape of Graham, I feel like the writers leaned on some really disturbing stereotypes of sexually aggressive and dominant Latina woman, which also ties into disgusting racist & misogynistic ideas about Latina women and other women of color being so sexual that they are 'un-rapeable' (which, given that Regina is a rape victim who is never named as such, is extra disturbing). I think OUAT's handling of rape is worth talking about...but I admit I tire of how often the OUAT discussion focuses only on Regina when so many of the other characters have committed sexual assault too. I also don't think her dying would've been a good ending. The show is about redemption and the possibility of second chances after you've done bad things. By the end of the show everyone has done bad things or been revealed to have done bad things. IMO it would've felt strange for Regina to die to redeem herself while the rest of the characters merrily carried on redeeming themselves while living. It worked for Rumple (IMO, though his arc was messy as hell) because his whole thing was cowardice & selfishly trying to keep power. Him sacrificing his life in the finale was about finally being brave and relinquishing control over his situation. But Regina spent most of her life being miserable and WANTING to die. Then she only wanted to live for Henry. It was only in the last 2 seasons that she really learned to accept herself and want to live for herself. To me one of the only truly beautiful & impactful things OUAT did was show us the story of a woman of color who had been systemically denied freedom & personhood her whole life (much like Anakin Skywalker in fact -- IMO he & Regina have a lot in common), who hated herself and wanted to die and wanted everyone else to hurt like she did, and then to show us her long and difficult journey towards healing and eventually becoming a hero and community leader who loves herself and is loved by others and improves their lives by being in it. Anyway that's my long ramble. Great video as always, but I felt it was fitting to defend a woman's redemption arc in the comments section of a video about celebrating women's redemption arcs. ;) P.S. Bonnibel Bubblegum did nothing wrong!!!
You breaking open ouat's terrible redemption arcs tore open an old wound I thought had healed years ago. Wow that show took a really cool premise and drove it into the the Earth's core. Great cast, great costumes, great music, God awful everything else. (I also watched it as a teenager who got veeeeery invested in dumb things. Simpler times.)
so so so excited to see a xena chapter. It gets so often overlooked for everything besides it's queerness, and while that is important and integral, it was so much more. (side note.. If I see one more video calling 'Once More With Feeling' the first modern musical episode.. )
Yes yes yes! Xena remains the me of my favorite characters and favorite shows and did everything Buffy did first and though I love Buffy too I get so tired of Xena getting overlooked.
all of the women in the buffyverse deserved so much better 💔 you can really see joss' hatred toward women more and more with every rewatch... also i looooove the buffy content
Finally! Been waiting since I saw this on Nebula to be able to click Like! Honestly, your discussions on these difficult topics are always such a tonic, because they manage to be deep and nuanced, while calling out shallow virtue signalling as well as poor writing. NOT EVERY VILLAIN NEEDS TO BE REDEEMED. A great redemption arc is fantastic, but if everyone *could* be redeemed then the stories would become very 1-note. Hama is one of the greatest characters in ATLA because it is completely understandable why she became so twisted and cruel - but that doesn't alter the fact that Katara must stop her. And as much as I love uncle Iroh (to infinity and beyond) the one thing ATLA fumbled was showing us anything substantial about his redemptive journey and having ever to come face to face with his previous actions. We see him grieving for his son, but that is not the same as making up for being a willing war monger and coloniser.
Yeah, it was very frustrating that he becomes so one-note in that sense - he lost his family and saw the error of his ways, but instead of making amends, or fighting for those under the oppression of the fire nation, or even just BOTH OF HIS child nephew and niece(!!) He just decides to look after Zuko. Is he this wise, virtuous man, who realised the errors of his(/his family's) ways, or did Zuko just get lucky because he looks like his dead cousin?! Would he have been on his own (&/or would Azula have been more likely to get considered for saving) if Iroh had had a daughter instead of his son?
Slight pushback on Zuko being incompetent: He was exiled and given what was thought to be an impossible task by his father and is compared to his genius sister who has support (militarily) and resources. Plus deep down I don't think Zuko really cared about the mission. There is that episode he chooses to help his men over capturing Aang. I think there's a separate episode where he again chooses to save Iroh over Aang. Plus he's 13 when he is scarred and exiled from the Fire Nation. He did not have as much of a chance to be a competent antagonist. Side note I'm opposed to Azula being redeemed outside of fanfiction. We don't have nearly enough cool, female villains as is.
Tbh I think the reason Zuko's redemption is so popular is for two reasons. One: its well-paced, less rushed than other arcs with plenty of pauses and a self-reflecting atmosphere. Two: Zuko was never among equals, every fire nation citizen and every family member (including Iroh cuz of his age) had more privileges than him as an outcast disfigured child. Now he had military power over citizens of other nations, but only by enacting his father's ideology, which he was raised to do. Meanwhile with Catra, we see her around what we perceive as her equals all the time, characters presented as potential friends. They arent her equals because she becomes a captain over them but I think some people see the mistreatment of potential friends as very damning, because it isn't punching down (which can be defended by 'societal brainwashing') or punching up (which feels fair), it's lashing out to someone trying to help. Even though, in Catra's case this makes total sense with her story arc imo. Zuko is so isolated, he doesn't really have this. His only equal until he befriends the gang is Mei when they are dating where he is overall respectful and treats her well
Zuko had an entire ship full of resources and personnel and his uncle by his side. Azula pretty much had her two besties and a dream. Also she is given further development in the comics when they go looking for their mother.
I think people are quick to elide that he had his crew because he shuts them out entirely from his actual issues and the point with him and his crew is that him showing basic kindness is very notable because thinking about others was supposedly best out of him and I do not think any of them could help because his actual issues are within his family (and his family is the royal family). His crew also only exists until the beginning of season 2, when all are arrested or the crew is broken up because Azula successfully leads Zuko on that he thinks his father is nice. Zuko basically only has his uncle. Admittedly, his uncle is a fount of therapeutic and spiritual advice, but it is still one person.
Catra feels partly a victim of the show being unfair to her. I am inclined to accept that her redemption was a later addition, or at least hammered out quite late, as there's this recurring theme of Adora and co. trying to turn her coat. But the most egregious has to be in Season 3 where one of those times was Glimmer and SHADOW WEAVER, her abuser, telling her to come to the good guys side RIGHT before Catra blows up the multiverse. The last time Shadow Weaver saw Catra she manipulated her emotions to help herself escape, and left Catra to get punished. Just like Adora did. And for some reason it's presented as this like, last-chance for Catra before she goes over the moral event horizon. But....most people would be primed to push a button and make it all go away under those kind of circumstances, after THAT many triggers.
That's the point though, Catra points out how unfair and hypocritical it is that Shadow Weaver would get to go over to Brightmoon after all she did, and lecture Catra about doing the right thing, when Shadow Weaver was instrumental in Catra being the way she is
The IDW Transformers comics had a great thematic throughline in questions of redemption: namely, who decides "when" someone has redeemed themselves, who gets to even make that call, and what does redemption look like, especially when someone has caused more harm than they can possibly resolve? Megatron is the centerpiece of that theme from Dark Cybertron to the end of Lost Light, but truth is that *everyone* in that continuity has those same questions lobbed at them, because *everyone* eventually does something that you could argue needs to be atoned for. Out of the female cast, we see Windblade as an agent of societal redemption (her being of a colony that was divorced from the Great War until after it was over; her relationship to Starscream is easily the focal point of 'Til All Are One and its tackling of redemption as a theme) and Arcee as someone who needs it. Arcee starts out similar to Faith-- a Cybertronian of lesser means, worked her way up from the gladiator pits (iirc) alongside her brother, endured immense torture (with a bonus gender transition that was retconned *out* of being nonconsensual, thank god) and proceeded to be among the most dangerous Autobots in the post-war political scheme. However, over time her anger lessens, she starts to advocate for herself, and it eventually leads her to a happy ending complete with a girlfriend and a mentorship role to the new generation of Cybertronians. I admit I haven't read much of the comics that involve her, but her story is nevertheless impactful. She is explicitly a trans woman who learns to be happy. Granted, because IDW was so sparse with female characters until its back half, we didn't get a lot of female redemption narratives. (There's also Blackarachnia in Beast Wars/Beast Machines, I believe, though I've not watched that yet. No, I'm not counting TFA Blackarachnia, her story was a complete waste. I won't go into it here.) Hopefully a future continuity will give us the food we deserve. Maybe featuring one of the Takara trilogy gals? Mega/Overlord? Esmeral?
IDW TRANSFORMERS MENTIONED, HELLO. Honestly, MTMTE and Lost Light in particular had such interesting things to explore and say about redemption and how far is too far to earn it, and I don't think I will ever be able to forget it. The care in which each character and everyone around them has to confront their actions and come to terms with their mistakes and how they can, or have, to atone for them is so well done. From the characters that do redeem themselves and does that refuse to do so, I really appreciate what James Roberts did. Like, Megatron's last words to Rodimus before being taken to trial one final time? Harrowing.
I loved your take on this. TLDR for the below ramble: nuance is great video is great and this below issue is the largest problem that I see when discussing female antagonists. This is the exact reason I hate the lack of nuance when it comes to media analysis I have seen generally. The idea of “it’s not that deep” robs stories of substance. It makes it frustrating when I describe nuanced takes on things because i usually get a disagreement without any of the thinking behind the opinion(symptomatic of getting an opinion from someone else and not analyzing how they came to the opinion) or when I analyze a text based on the origins of the text itself(for example controversial texts and the way the came about. A really good example of this is how Lolita the book is discussed). Both of these issues frustrate me to no end because you’re allowed to hold opinions and so I cannot discount the ones I disagree with but in the circumstances where we are discussing a difference of opinions if you are trying to argue that I am wrong you better actually have an argument ready. And that argument better not be “I don’t see it that way” without any elaboration. It’s nonsensical because they are trying to get me to change my stance or trying to point out how I’m wrong but refuse to actually elaborate on why that’s the case.
I think the comparison between Rose Quartz and Endeavor is an interesting one, because while there definitely is a gendered backlash to Rose's actions and her selfishness, I think part of the problem is just Steven Universe being messy by trying to incorporate a story about a toxic family unit with fantasy space colonisers obliterating planets. The scope is so far beyond the crystal diamonds and Stephen that when the resolution is "make your shitty family sit down and listen to you", it resolves one side of the story, but undermines the trauma and hurt caused to millions of living beings who don't happen to be in the in-group. As you said, when you stretch the crimes far enough, just pathos doesn't cut it anymore. Looking past that, I remember seeing a tweet where a person stated they didn't necessarily blame Rose for disliking Spinel because they could see how she felt suffocated by her life and how Spinel was an extension of that. The general response to the sentiment was utter bewilderment for someone daring to defend Rose's abuse of Spinel, even though the tweet wasn't claiming it. Merely trying to see her side of the story is seen to be defending her abusive behaviours, whereas when you look at Endeavor's redemption arc, which I didn't like (coming from the second biggest Endeavor simp after Hawks) and thought was dismissing the voices of his victims by centering it so heavily towards his path to righteousness, I find that people are more willing to dissect and discuss that dynamic from multiple angles. It does make me question how much more willing we are to forgive someone when that story is told from the abuser's perspective.
Thank you thank you for taking a moment to point out that a character growing & changing does not inherently equal redemption arc!!! Bringing up the bad faith hate towards Sansa also kinda reminds me of some of the hate Mabel Pines got (weird comparison I know but hear me out). Like, apparently any time a little girl is in distress & gets tricked by older, more powerful master manipulators it’s all her fault and she’s horrible.
I know “redemption” in this discourse means something specific, but I believe it should include antagonists becoming their best antagonistic selves. A villain with a crisis of faith, finding renewed purpose and genuine joy in making things difficult. A villain with an affinity for cruelty, learning empathy and compassion for their minions. A villain who is inspired by the hero’s passion and drive to protect others, and changes their motives to mirror it, though their interpretation remains ambivalent. Basically, a villain who heals past trauma and unlearns toxic behaviors, even though they remain opposed to our heroes. Probably a bit more common with dramas tbh but still.
Faith the Vampire Slayer is my favorite character in the entire Buffyverse The one thing that sets her apart from Spike, which I’m not sure why the spike has so many fans faith changed because she wanted to change and not because she wanted to get into someone’s pants Thank you for reminding me why I love the character so much
Spike has so many fans because he is fun to watch .. Smolder, hot abs, great oneliners..what's not to like? And faith sadly did not have nearly as much screentime within her redemption arc...
🗣️Listen you went off with this video…the delicious handpicked examples, the iconic character references, THE REDEMPTION ARC!!! Women’s stories are thee best for this (and the fact the majority are queer or queer coded stories is an extra layer). The way we’ll ride and fight for these types of characters has been perpetually studied and written about from so many angles and I never get tired of seeing new perspectives. You ate (as you always do) with this one Princess Weekes! Update: after having just arrived to the Faith section of the video when you were talking about light and dark characters, I thought about your last video and how you explored race, coding, and ethnicity. It’s super duper interesting to me how the majority of these characters that need redeeming are “dark” featured, hair textured, or outright women of color…I’ve always found that thread of the redemption arc part of media really interesting with real world overlaps of how racism and othering works in tandem. Some creators don’t even realize they are writing racial or ethnic types for these stories but when casting happens and the stories play out, oh yeah it can quickly become loud and unavoidable in the narrative.
Honestly I really liked Regina’s redemption arc. Yeah, they center it on individual characters we care about rather than coming to terms with how she burned down entire villages. Her redemption is always centered on how she hurt the Charmings or sometimes a few other individuals. But I like how she goes from wanting to be better so Henry will love her again to wanting to be better for its own sake. Every time she backslides it’s because someone offers her an opportunity to take a shortcut to what she wants, which is for Henry (and eventually Emma, Robin, etc.) to approve of/validate her. She’s only good when it seems like the easiest way to that. But by season 4 she reaches a point where she has a chance to backslide in the same way she has before by using Zelena’s time travel spell to kill Marian and get back with Robin, and she starts to but decides against it. That moment where it becomes about being better for the sake of being better rather than because “being better” is a way to get what she wants… it really resonates with me. Though Rumple and Zelena’s “redemption arcs” were trash. And Regina’s had its awful moments too.
Excellent video as usual. I also really liked your video about people being obsessed with redemption arcs because I am of the mind that not every antagonist/villain needs one. Regarding Catra, I will admit the first time I watched She-Ra, even though I did understand why she acted the way she did, I did not find myself being attached to the character the way I might have with Zuko and did feel that redemption arc was a bit rushed. However, after watching your video about what people get wrong about Catra, which is one of the reasons I love your videos so much is being challenged to look at things from a different perspective and reflect on why I am not loving her the way I love Zuko, am I being hypocritical, is this my internalized misogyny kicking in. I ended up re-watching the show and completely came away with a different perspective on her character arc. I still have some gripes about how it was handled and will say to your point about how sometimes the writers up the stakes too much before these characters are redeemed, there were 4 seasons of Catra being an antagonist vs Zuko’s 2, so I still wish that the ultimate turning point happened a bit earlier. Ofcourse the result is the same and as you said they still spent the same amount of time on the good side. Obviously, you can’t deny that just by default of Catra not being a man, sexism will always play a role in how she is perceived, discussed, etc vs Zuko, and then you add the element of her skin tone too which adds another layer. Also loved your point about Zuko being bad at being a bad guy doesn’t make him any less complicit in the fire nation crimes, which I think ties so beautifully to your point at the beginning of the video with the fire nation citizens doing nothing to stand up against the system and benefiting from it. I do have mixed feelings about Azula when it comes to redemption, but I understand why some people felt that at least a redemption arc should have been explored and it certainly would have been interesting to see how it played out had s4 happened. Sorry, this was a long incoherent mess. I can’t wait for your hotd video!
Damnit. I've gotta go pick up kids and then get them fed and coach soccer and supervise baths and shit. You've gotta drop another video *now*?? Looking forward to watching tonight!
Haven't finished yet but I love Azula and sometimes I think we need to put the fandom in timeout until they can be normal about a fourteen year old girl raised by genocidal maniacs who was groomed to be one herself and literally broke under that pressure. Love your videos ❤️
I will never be normal about Azula. She is FOURTEEN. She's been left by everyone she ever cared about. IROH thinks she's beyond redemption. She moulded (broke) herself into the perfect weapon for Ozai, and he threw her away. She has a mental breakdown where she hallucinates her own parents (and in the original script, her friends too) talking shit to her. She explodes in rage whenever something about her isn't perfect. She ends the series literally CRYING fire. And she's a fucking war criminal. "My own mother thought I was a monster. She was right (...)" I mean excuse me???? Holy shit this girl needs a hug. And she'd kill whoever tried to give her one.
I never understood the Skylar hate. She was forced into complicity in crime by her husband and that ultimately ruined her life. She is well within her rights to find this situation disagreeable.
Also, yeah, she did collaborate with Walter White so as far as she was his accountant for Season 4 she is at fault, but given that Walter White is so tempestuous he probably would have coerced her more forcefully if she said no; even if she did make the choice to not pursue that path, she is very literally trapped by being the wife of Walter White (being that she actually looks after the family and needs direct control over Walt Jr/Flynn to ensure Walter is not manipulating him).
I'm not saying that the reactions to Catra are rooted in explicitly transphobia but the timing of people turning against the show in general after the near fanatical love it received on Tumblr at its inception dovetailing right as Nate Stevenson came out as a trans man should not be discounted.
This was undoubtedly a factor. Another is that a certain contingent of adults who exclusively watch children's cartoons demand a ridiculous level of purity from said media. That being said, it was mostly misogyny to begin with. People say they want complex women in media but they can't even handle a cartoon villain catgirl with an onscreen kill count of somewhere between zero and one.
I’m not gonna lie you connecting your love for these damage characters had me shook. I’m gonna be having this internal discussion for at least a week now.
32:48 thank you! The thing is, I was on the opposite side of this, ever since Graham's death- Justice for Graham! I could never get on board with Regina's redemption because the show kept reminding me of the thousands of victims she had and then ignored them.
I haven't finished watching the video, yet, but had to comment - thank you so much for acknowledging Xena! I saw the thumbnail with Faith, Catra, and Azula and the premise and was completely intrigued so I clicked, and then when you talked about Xena's arc I subscribed. She isn't mentioned much in pop culture analysis (there's an incredible podcast called Xena: Warrior Podcast that goes through each episode and is very fun) and like you said, she is a really good template for the female redemption arc. Anyway, really enjoying the video and your analysis so far! Edit: OMG yes, justice for Fuffy!
I've been in probably the same threads about Hama and Jet, and my hot take ig is that those characters were handled well. In isolation, portraying victims of violent colonialism and ethnic cleansing as The Villains is fucked up-but, not so much in a story where the majority of speaking roles and named characters are people militantly resisting that same oppressive force. Notably, what distinguishes Hama and Jet from Hakoda, Bumi, and the Kyoshi Warriors, is whom they choose to set their efforts upon: civilians vs. military targets.
i think the thing which never sat right with me about the conclusion to hama's arc is that she just gets carted off to fire nation maximum security prison again in the end and the show never really comments on this at all and its sort of just treated as a given that her being put in jail is a "good" thing, even though she would have never invented blood bending or developed her animosity towards the fire nation citizens had she not been kidnapped and imprisoned by them in the first place... it always struck me as really fucked up and i wouldve been more okay with it had the show seemed interested in acknowledging that its a fucked up thing to happen to her in the end. its just a victim of colonial violence being subject to more colonial violence, but its "deserved" now. it felt at odds with the rest of the show to me.
@@triangleman2627 It honestly would've been so much better if, when surrounded, Hama disappeared into a conjured mist and was never seen again. Would've been more ominous, she would literally haunt the narrative after as Katara later goes down her own vengeance arc, and we wouldn't have a "prison is okay" ending.
Hama’s blood bending affect the story up to Korra season 1, so it is definitely fair to make her leave like a ghost thematically even if they were going with logistics.
It literally would have been kinder of the Gaang to kill Hama. Sending her to a *fire nation prison?* After everything she's been through? That's, like, s2 Azula levels of cruelty
Azula was a great character because she was evil. She didnt seek redemption, the writers didnt cave to fan pressure and try to heap redemption on her. She wasnt handled with kid gloves because she was "14" as some of the fan base so desperately wanted. The writers owned up to the fact that by the time you are her age, you know good from evil, and if you want redemption you have to seek it; something Azula clearly was not interested in. I respect her as a character for the same reason I dont respect modern She-Ra's Catra as one. Catra is evil, knows good from evil, isnt really interested in redemption and doesnt really do anything to earn it, yet the writers just heap it on her anyway.
I didn’t watch Breaking Bad when it aired. So when I finally started to watch it, I knew Skylar was such a hated character. I kept waiting for her to derserve the hate, which never happened (tbh I haven’t finished the show, stopped near the last season.)
When I saw your She-Ra T-shirt, I knew you were cool. When you accidentally said Shadowheart instead of Shadow Weaver, I knew you were a kindred spirit - I just stopped playing BG3 and started watching this 😂 relatable content
What Hama did wasn't really even resistance, it was just dumb. Even though she was hostile territory she was just making herself a target when she should have been hiding and kidnapping random civilians doesn't do anything to stop the fire nation from waging war
To this very day, Shou Tucker from the 2003 version of Fullmetal Alchemist still causes a visceral reaction in me. He has this disturbing whispering voice in the Japanese series that honestly freaks me the heck out for some odd reason.
Small rant. The story of Shou Tucker works so much better as a 2 part episode, and possibly my only gripe with Brotherhood is that they condensed it into 1 episode.
Personnally , I see Azula like the kid who adapted . She saw how Zuko was treated and decided to be what her father expected her to be to have peace . It is like the second child learning from the "errors" of the first child.But she has to be the crazy prodigy girl at the end . I saw two reactions concerning Catra , the first one is that people loved the redemption arc etc... and the other one despise it .There are more and more people who dislike seeing abusive and toxic relationships on fictions but there are other people who seem to dislike Catra for petty reasons . Because there are a lot of villains getting redemption arc and end up with the girl . My best example is Damon Salvatore . Even the actor recognized (I am not sure if the same exact words) that if his character put a fire on an orphanage people would still find excuses . I think the problem with Catra is that she is not a boy or a men and she is not conventionnally attractive , she is looking more like a stray cat .
I watched this on nebula but wanted to comment here. Really good video and thanks for your take on Regina. I love OUAT & also that character but something never clicked with me on her redemption arc: like you said the worst things she did never got fully addressed whilst the smaller bits got some recognition but her evolving into a good person usually came with caveats. Also just a small observation; I always saw her hatred for young Snow as an easier outlet for Regina. She can’t get justice against her mother, her lifelong abuser, who was the one at fault for the incident that ruined Regina’s life, because Regina feels powerless against her. Instead Regina projects her anger at Snow, a child who’s easier to blame and imagine getting revenge on, as she isn’t an all powerful sorceress who can take everything away from Regina. Unfortunately it informs a lot of her character and her actions - taking out her anger on others not the cause of her pain and therefore continuing the cycle of abuse. That’s just what I saw anyways. Can’t wait for your House of Dragon video - I only just finished S2 👍🏻
You cite Willow being a lesbian as the TV show Buffy being queer friendly, but that was actually biexual erasure. Most of the characters on Buffy were bisexual, but either Joss or the network refused to say the word.
The backsliding of Regina got to the point where no matter how much they tried to 'redeem her' it always felt so hallow and like the writers wanted the brownie points for making this character redemption without any real work. I loved her as a character until it got to the point where her character just became "oh everyone and everything is just out to attack me even though I'm good now" and its like, ma'am you assaulted a man for decades, murdered him and caused lasting trauma. I wanted so bad for her character to grow, really change for the better and create a better path, but they never did the work and just threw the ultimate crown on her head at the end.
I think it might have played out differently if she had spent more time getting to know Emma as a person rather than antagonizing her for the first season was real because while Regina is the main reason Emma spent a lifetime in the system, they are pretty similar in terms of personality and parental issues. Emma seems to be more like Regina than her biological mother. (I am aware that Emma is kind of a threat to Regina's position as Henry's mother, but Emma didn't go looking for Henry, he went looking for her.)
Lana Parilla is literally the only reason we watched OUaT up to and past the Frozen season. As a Latine, I loved seeing telenovela levels of pettiness and enjoyment in being evil. Parilla and Robert Carlyle were acting far beyond their pay grade and quality of the script. The show deserves its own video essay with how it kept building up complex storylines and topics before squashing any nuance with a hydraulic press. Regina and Sydney were the only noteable PoC in the town. I don't think it was intentional, but between that and the non-American accents of the villains, it's hard not to notice. The constant reboot of Rumpelstiltskin's character every season was so infuriating. He redeems himself and becomes a changed man who's willing to commit the ultimate sacrifice . . . unless. The writers honestly didn't know what to do with Rumple and Regina past their redemption, while simultaneously being aware of the fact that these two characters held 90% of the charisma.
I didn't know how badly I needed to hear such a well-thought-out analysis of OUAT, having been a huge fan for years only to end up blocking it out of my memory (I also bowed out at the Frozen season LMFAO). 2017 me feels so seen, at long last. Regina was also my favorite, but it might be more accurate to just say Lana Parilla was my favorite, lol.
Yo, can we get a whole video on Catra? I have heard the arguments you made one other time before, but I feel like I still need to be walked through the progression. I am interested in understanding the redemption arc differently, but there's a *lot* of pretty unforgivable shit that she does
One could easily make that argument for just about any character that goes through a redemption. Does Anakin Skywalker deserve to be one with the force forever considering what he did to the younglings? Does Arthur Morgan deserve to be considered a great redemption story despite his years of robbing, killing, and at one point beating a struggling family in poverty to repay a debt to Straus? Does Vegeta deserve a happy ending with a wife and kids considering how the first time we see him he eats native citizens before blowing up their planet? Like that's just how redemption stories go. If your character isn't doing a good amount of awful stuff it seems there's a severe limitation to make their redemption story seem compelling, drastic, and engaging. Like should all redemption stories be limited to somebody like Hunter from Owl House or Zuko from ATLA to be considered good? And even then Zuko did commit what is considered an act of genocide. Burning down Suki's village and causing displacement.
I think it's important to remember for a character to have a redemption arc they need to do horrible things to learn from and grow from. So the act of going "well yes you did messed up things because you were a victim and in a horrible place and want to grow from it, I'll let the person who said something mean once do that but not YOU though cause you're too far gone." That negates the entire point of a redemption. It's what I love about Catra and why I hate when people say Amity Blight had a redemption arc. Amity didn't need a redemption because she wasn't a bad person, yes there were misunderstandings and hurtful things said but she was a kid acting reasonably (if you actually view the show from her perspective it was totally understandable why she'd see Luz as a bully and hate her). An actual little girl doesn't need a "redemption" for being catty. But Catra does. Because she DID actually do horrible things and a lot of the horrible things she did came after she doubled down because SHE believed HERSELF to be too far gone and thus didn't try to be better. If you've been in a similar situation it's difficult to put into words but acting like people who do horrible things that are "unforgivable" shouldn't even attempt redemption is just counterproductive. The people you hurt don't HAVE to forgive you but this feeling is more akin to even people you didn't hurt directly will hate you and you deserve to be hated which isn't true (once you've actually done the work). But many people, like Catra, just give up because they think no matter what they do, they've already done the one thing thay will mar their character forever and they're not allowed to become good people after. Hope that makes sense.
i dont know if redemption amd forgiveness are the same thing. she's trying to do better, and i think to my memory the show does a pretty good job of showing that most of the people around her don't forgive her and wouldn't have anything to do with her if the circumstances weren't so dire
@LangkeeLongkee being that we were abused in similar ways to Catra, were toxic before and had to do a lot of work to be around people/accept love/etc., we want her to be redeemed. The issue for us is that it felt like the redemption was too short and didn't offer enough time for the actual weight of what Catra did to truly be reckoned with. It felt a lot like she got a cat, kissed a girl, and everyone was fine with her. Someone above mentioned Zuko and Vegeta, but Vegeta gets multiple seasons' worth of redemption, Zuko was incompetent and had comparatively long to come to terms with his shit *and* got damn near multiple seasons to be redeemed. Catra is an effective squad captain who levels a village in the second episode (maybe third, we're high and can't remember) and only ups the ante. Among other things, she kills Glimmer's mum and nearly collapses the universe. I feel like she deserved a much more fleshed out redemption because of that weight. But I am rewatching it to try and pay closer attention to her interactions and stuff to see if these arguments make sense. One thing I only really realized from this video is that Adora isn't really a dependable friend to Catra and lets her get the full brunt of abuse a lot of the time.
@@theraggingscorpion Vegeta had full intention to commit countless genocides and saving Earth didn't become a priority until the ending of Buu. Also, Vegeta's sacrifice didn't even do anything. Buu got back to fighting pretty quick. In contrast Catra had temptations to leave the Horde as early as Season 2 when she was about to takeover Tunglasher's gang and when she was regretting everything in S3 when Scorpia left. Not to mention, her kiss saved Adora's life and because of that, led to the ending of Horde Prime. Without Catra, the whole universe would have been f'ed. Also that thing with defending Vegeta negates the original argument of a character doing unforgivable things leading to a bad redemption arc. If Vegeta and Anakin Skywalker can make ammends after what they did, there's no reason why another traumatized child suffering from an abusive childhood can't either. All this endless focusing on the war crimes Catra does under the Horde while Vegeta wiped out billions of lives in the planets he destroyed and almost let the whole universe go to hell in Cell simply because he was jealous, and then there's Anakin who killed children personally, aided in a galactic genocide for decades, murdered Luke's adoptive family, maimed his son, and threatened to turn his own daughter evil. And we are supposed to think he can get good forever because he threw one slightly more evil man down a shaft? Why brush aside all the horrendous stuff Vegeta and Anakin did but emphasize the stuff Catra did?
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“There is this desire to make darker antagonistic women sexually violent, but then not actually treat the violence that they do seriously.” I see this all the time, and I think it’s pretty clear why this keeps happening: it’s The Author’s Barely-Disguised Fetish.
I’m being serious. Especially in media in which a heroic female character temporarily turns sexy-evil, it’s pretty clear that the writers are *playing* with the idea of a sexually aggressive version of the heroine because they think it’s fun and titillating. And the moment that the story tries to treat that sexual aggression seriously, then it’s not fun or titillating anymore.
I think the author’s fetish is especially obvious in cases where the sexy-evil woman’s NON-sexual crimes are treated completely seriously, but her sexual assaults are never addressed because “lol hot dominatrix amirite guys??” And yes I am thinking specifically of Willow in BtVS when I type this comment.
Yeah I think you're pretty spot on
This is so true. I saw this with Allison in season 3 of The Umbrella Academy. Her taking advantage of Luther only for them to gloss over it later really rubbed me the wrong way.
Yep, AND Faith body-swapped into Buffy as the video comments on... And considering Whedon, like... It seems it might be a very applicable criticism
THIS!!! i’ve been trying to put this into words for so long😭😭
I thought it was realistic that Azula was not redeemed. The Royal Family of the Fire Nation is set up a narcissistic family system. Azula, as the golden child, received positive feedback from Ozai whenever she showed talent with firebending, domination, and cruelty. Her worst traits were cultivated by her father, and became a core part of her identity. As a result, she has a superiority complex and difficulty empathizing with others, and it will be very hard for her to grow beyond those traits. Maybe as she grows into an adult, she will heal, but it does not make sense for her to be redeemed in the timeframe of the show. It would've required a total rewrite of her character. I think she deserves to be redeemed at some point, as she is a victim of her father too, but I'm glad they didn't shoehorn in a clumsy redemption arc where it didn't make sense.
yeah i think the frustration lies more in the fact that it was azula who was written to fill this role and not zuko, and that a genderflipped version of these types of characters is quite rare. not that her lack of redemption is unrealistic.
@hinasakukimi yeah that's a fair observation
@@hinasakukimiZuko from the beginning is the scared one, Its actually more progressive that Zuko was in part shunned by his father for failing to live up to a masculine standard of the fire nation.
I think its an unfair arguement to critisize the show for because its kinda misandryist when looking at it as an individual critisism for Avatar itself. which isnt what the video is doing (from what ive seen litterally just started) but seems to be the nature of the discourse surounding the last air bender.
You can critisize the general lack of female redemption broadly but it feels weird to critsize a specific piece of media, not for not doing something explicitly regressive, but for not doing something as progressive as youd like.
There comes a point where the critique becomes way to focused on critisizing a piece of media for what it doesnt do, which can often lead to completely unfair disscussions that are essentially psudo policing art (im not chud maxxing i swear i just find this specific critisism to be absurd)
@@demo0831there’s absolutely nothing “progressive” about a scared vulnerable boy being shunned for being scared and vulnerable
@@billyalarie929 I think its progressive for that boy to fully take accountability for his actions. Become someone peaceful, wise, and nurturing. Beg on his knees for forgiveness. And release all sense of ego (being literal royalty) to respect those younger and more capable than him (Aang, Katara, etc).
Though male characters get redemption arcs all the time, I'd say what was called a "redemption" in the past was really just, having a hero moment that absolves them of past sins. Zuko's arc felt way more complete, nuanced, and sensitive than others.
I think the point of the comment you're replying to -though- was just saying, its not fair to use Azula not getting a canon redemption arc to justify the claim that the show is not progressive.
I was the target age demographic for Avatar as it aired, and even my queer child brain felt there was more to Azula than what the series was able to show. As an adult, I can now articulate that I actually find Zuko's arc incomplete without there being some kind of grace to Azula (which I guess aligns with what the creators apparently intended with Zuko taking on an Iroh-esque role for Azula)
There is grace for Azula within the series, Zuko. During their whole final confrontation Zuko doesn't WANT to be doing this. He's doing this because he knows he has to. But I think even before the end of the fight he feels sorry for her because he realizes who their father was and what she really meant to him. Which is to say, nothing but a tool.
Dunno if Meg’s character arc is a redemption one. She’s basically being forced to work for Hades and clearly would rather be anywhere else. The closest she gets to villainous is dating Hercules to find out his weakness.
Her arc is more opening herself up to love after getting so badly burned before.
it's a soft redemption arc for me. i think it comes down to the fact that meg was still willing to screw over someone who hadn't done anything wrong for her own benefit. even if she was in a terrible situation, that was because of a mistake *she* made. don't get me wrong, her actions are very understandable, like *of course* you would become cynical and want to look out for number one. her selflessness is what hurt her in the first place. but imo opening up to love again is closely tied to redemption... it's hard to be a good person when you can't see the good in anyone else.
@@hinasakukimi Fair point.
I kinda think that's why princess says it's "baby's first" haha, because it doesn't quite constitute a villian redemption.
I agree with this but mostly because when I look at these characters as narrative devices, it’s the fact that while Megara does bad things and is “redeemed” from it, she is written first and foremost to be a love interest for Hercules, rather than actually operate within the narrative as a villain.
i havent watched yet, but i was just thinking earlier today about how one of my favorite things about Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is how Valencia goes from being an antagonistic force and a "competitor" to being a fully realized character and a friend of the protagonist
You could argue that both Valencia AND Rebecca get redemption arcs in the show. CExG is phenomenal.
I feel like this is a kind of redemption that isn't featured in this vid that's more a "mean-girl" redemption, rather than anyone doing anything evil. I'd compare it to Cordelia's redemption in Buffy rather than Faith's. You get these rivalries that do involve characters being antagonistic and genuinely mean, but the intensity of what they do isn't on the level of the characters Princess is talking about. Could be a whole other video imo!
@@ArtichokeHunter i definitely think a "mean girls can be people too" video would be great
@@tariqthomas9090TBH, everyone did on that show but next to Rebecca's arc, Valencia got a big glow up. In most shows the girl in the way of the main couple gets treated like disposable trash by both the narrative and often in canon (ie, Emily from _Friends,_ or Lavender Brown from HP, who Princess Weekes discussed in another video) but the show let her find an identity beyond just being Josh's girlfriend, who he honestly didn't treat any better than Rebecca).
Yes! Love that show, and its nuanced take on so many characters is definitely part of the reason why. Really loved the bestie squad by the end. Valencia going from mean girl who fights other women over a man to a close friend with a girlfriend is truly the growth she needed.
Just hearing you recap the deranged soap opera plot of Once Upon a Time is giving me war flashbacks
I’m so grateful that you spoke about Catra, specifically about how people are perfectly fine with Zuko while being against Catra’s redemption. I’ve always seen her as a very clear and well understood victim turned perpetrator, but even throughout the show a lot of people seem to not understand that she is STILL being abused? Hordak and Shadow Weaver are still abusing Catra throughout her entire time at the Hoard, and there is no one looking out for her in a way that helps her.
The breakdown she has in the control room after she fails a mission (I think?) is so painful because she’s doing horrible things all to try to succeed for the only people she can get any validation or care from. You can see throughout the seasons as she’s quite literally loosing her grasp on her entire life and it’s really sad.
When she got redeemed I felt a small bit of pressure get released from my chest because I relate to her situation and the way she behaves because of it. And I also relate to having someone accept me for who I am and give me the room to grow while showing me true love. I am so defensive over her bc I take it personally lol
I think people's main issue with Catra's redemption arc was that she ended up Adora at the end, even after spending so much time at each other's throats. Zuko had similar issues with the other protagonists, but his relationship with Mai was depicted as generally amicable.
@@ThePrincessCHthat’s so wild to me because even though catra and adora were at each others throats, it’s made really clear that they never stop caring about each other. Adora more obviously, never stops loving Catra. And Catra’s more subtle, but she clearly never really stops loving Adora either. That’s why Adoras’ perceived betrayal hurts her so much and fuels so much of her actions. I don’t think it’d be extreme to say that their love for each other is one of the main through lines of the show, so in an ending where Catra is redeemed, what would actually be stopping them from being in a relationship? But that’s just my 2 cents, I think their relationship adds a lot of texture to the show and is a big part of what makes the show so good
@@thatrantinggirl7376 gotta agree with you, i saw the gay vibes from the first episode and to me that made Catra's descent into villainy make even more sense. She was so hurt and betrayed that her golden girl that she shielded from so much harm was walking out on her, and wasnt going to make things better for Catra by taking control of the Hoarde with her. In Catra's view, that was the only way to stop the abuse from Shadow Weaver and Hordak. It's pretty similar to Astarion in BG3 where he believes that he can only be free by becoming more powerful than his abuser too
@@ThePrincessCH I think the difference is that Zuko never really seemed to care about having a relationship with Mai, outside of teenage obligation (he’s trying to be a normal teen in that arc I think?). Where Adora and Catra essentially spend the whole show just wanting the other to come back with them.
I think it’s very interesting because Catra and Adora seem to be fighting each other for different reasons, for a long time it feels like they don’t even know the other is arguing about something different. Catra feels betrayed because of Adora’s abandonment and leaving her behind, while Adora is frustrated and confused as to why Catra won’t leave the Hoard(e?) even after finding out they’re evil. Because Catra already knows how bad the Hoard is, having faced the extent of the abuse that Adora didn’t, and the abusive situation is all she’s known. I think Adora really struggles to understand that Catra is fighting her for leaving her behind to face more abuse, after having told her she’d stay by her side. Whereas Catra’s feelings of betrayal are keeping her from being able to see that Adora is trying to help her escape the situation now that she’s in a safer one.
To me it feels very much like a natural step in their relationship because both of them just wanted each other back the whole time despite everything that happened. A happy ending where they didn’t have each other would feel a little empty^^
(Ty for replying talking is fun!!!!)
Yeah Catra and Zuko are compelling but I don't like Catra's arc for the same reason I wouldn't want to see Zutara or Zukka outside of AU fanfiction. That Catra and Adora antagonism was centered as familial/relational (arguable since they were friends/ not really sisters) abuse versus Zuko being codified as a spiritual/moral redemption not necessarily a healing from trauma. The bar for Zuko was literally lower (in addition to sexism plus his culpability and direct accountability were smaller) and Catra's arc bit off quite a bit more.
Aside from the components that give me goose bumps I kinda feel a lot of the recovery healing was sidelined by romance plus there's the whole they're whole relationship circles around intense trauma bonding. A lot of people dislike Catra because of her actions but honestly i feel like by making her redemption a romantic one so much of her character was done dirty to get that iconic pairing. Catra deserved (arguably needed)to heal and unlearn things outside a romantic relationship and Adora self actualizing her self-worth through the confession of someone codependent who repeatedly hurt and was hurt by her made me squirm. Always me uncomfortably curious about how much was trying to get the fandom cake and eat it too and how much was just green lighted. Makes me really glad young me didn't see canon Zutara and instead got fandom Zuko. Fandom does very odd things to character interpretation on top of it all.... that's ignoring the whole personal relationship redemption is not accountability for war crimes but all trauma centered millenial/gen z cartoons have that issue (the tendency to use war and colonialism as vehicles to discuss family abuse but not doing either justice)
The competence point really is a hard nail when it comes to the difference between Zuko and Azula specifically. There's a lot to be said about Zuko's conflicted nature leading to his fumbling but Azula meets Aang in episode 3, talks to him for the first time 5 episodes later and lights his ass up 12 episodes after that. That's the kinda drive people hate to see.
I’m a Xena girlie, I hear “redemption story arc” and the Lucy Lawless part of my brain starts screaming. Thanks for everything you do, Princess! ❤
Exactly what I came here to say, too!
Xena was a great show...and it came at this nebulous "redemption" from intresting sides..
I think part of why Regina went down the path she did is that she allowed her anger to fester. It's not just that a ten-year-old snitched on her, which, granted, is a ridiculous premise for a tragic backstory; it's also that she never allowed herself to move on and be happy. She was young and didn't believe another love existed for her in the world, even though she was proven wrong.
It wasn't the fact that Snow told on Regina it was the fact that her mother was so manipulative and controlling and didn't allow her to have what she wanted which was a life of her own. Regina saw Snow's telling as a last straw, her hatred is more of a projection.
I watched She-ra recently without knowing much about it and I found Catra really compelling very quickly, I feel like my youth had a different kind of abuse and trauma but she somehow reminded me of it anyway, so I was very invested in her relationship with the other characters.
Honestly Azula is the only thing that rubs me about Iroh in a VERY wrong way, like Iroh is shown to be this all understanding guy who shows kindness even to the guy that tries to rob him, but at the same time ignores his 14 year old (!) niece who he KNOWS will get treated the same as Zuko if she would be anything less than perfect at anything her father orders her and he still calls her "crazy" and acts like she got like this all by herself and doesn't show her even a tiny bit of empathy
I think part of it is that while Iroh is an incredibly understanding, compassionate, and kind man, he is still a man who has watched his own brother become a genocidal maniac incapable of remorse and sees Azula going down the same path and enjoying it. It's possible Iroh writing Azula off is because Iroh tried to steer Ozai in a different direction when they were young, but THEIR father cultivated those toxic traits in the boys just as Ozai has done to Azula. It makes sense for him to say as much to Zuko "she's too far gone, she's not going to want to change. She needs to be dealt with before she becomes her father"
Iroh spend most of his life being complicit with the fire nation and actively helping with the war effort. He only saw the the problem after his own son died as a result of his actions and even then he didn't fully turn against them until zhao went too far by killing the moon spirit. In what word would it make sense for him to write off his fourteen year old niece as being "too far gone"?
Could be interpreted as him seeing himself in her with the fire nation imperialist complacency and hating himself for it so he hates her because of their similarities. But idk @@juriori
@@Janary08 it totally could, but you do see how that'd be a bad thing for him to do right? My point isnt that him writing her off makes no sense from a writing perspective, just that its not a defensible action in my opinion
some people are just evil, azula was trash even as a kid unlike zuko..who showed signs of humanity.
Eliza was actually the same age as Faith during filming (age 17 in season 3). So she was wass a real teenager acting out those plot lines.
😟😢 moments like this I remember that "learning something new every day" is a gift and a curse. But also deeply parasocially in awe of how far she's come.
yeah she was one of only a few portraying her real age (the others are harmony and dawn). she’s so good, but i think she was put into some unethical positions too. namely when DB didn’t tell her how to “movie kiss” without tongue.
@@moonstone___😮😮
Omg I didn’t know that. How did I not know that. 😢
Having never watched Angel, seeing Faith's breakdown over why Angel won't defeat her juxtaposed with her (quite literally) beating herself up in Buffy highlights just how great of a performance Eliza Dushku gave in both shows, from the sassy bad girl to the hurting lost girl (with added props to SMG for successfully emulating her in Who Are You?). 👍✨
seriously Eliza killed it in both shows and in dollhouse its a shame she's been relatively overlooked ever since
@@deaconlasagna8570she was assaulted on the set of a show and successfully sued and won over it. and then she married a literal billionaire and chose to retire from acting. i think she also does a lot of charity work so good for her (genuinely)
It is very much worth watching at least those two season one Angel episodes with Faith in them.
@@salyx i agree as long as you consider that the way buffy is written is bad on purpose lol
@@moonstone___yeah, the Buffy we get in those Angel episodes is a Buffy who is not the protagonist. She's flat out wrong, and she's allowed to be because in this story she's a side character not the Chosen One, and in doing so her actions are written in relation to Angel rather than the other way around. Which honestly is kindof refreshing.
Like I love Bangel, but it is nice to see Angel going "Buffy this isn't your show, I'm allowed to have other priorities right now!"
I absolutely love Catra - her redemption arc and emotional journey are so well done. I’m also a messy queer who loves shipping flawed characters, exploring messy relationship dynamics. I’ve noticed how many people think (re: fiction) “bad boys” are cool and redeemable, but “bad girls” are total monsters
exactly no one has the issues with kylo or sasuke or vegeta the way they do with catra.
People have problems because catras physical and emotional abuse are barely adressed in the narrative and sorries she says are not enough for level of deep damage and manipulation she's done?? Remember, our community is not a monolith. For a lot of people like me seeing an abuser in a queer relationship have their abuse unaddressed isn't just a nitpick but in general another reminder in our communities we tend to ignore it for sake of appealing to normative majority. Catra literally casually physically hurt adora since they were kids, shes not even just an emotional abuser. It makes total sense some people want a complex exploration of that, because duh, things like this are real, they happen to real people. Adora is made up, she doesnt need help because she doesnt exist, but victims who watch the show and see catra be re affirmed again without putting in actual work do.
@@kinrateia I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I think people are absolutely allowed to dislike Catra, be triggered by her, and think her narrative does not adequately address the harm she’s done. My comment is only meant to point out the disconnect and underlying misogyny of how many people who like male characters who have done harmful things, but hate female characters who do the same things.
@@kinrateia Well, I personally disagree with everything you said and it is highly undignified for you to have said it. Stop misusing the word abuse because you simply dislike a cartoon character. It's a show. Just put it down, walk away, and stop talking about it.
"Catra literally casually physically hurt adora since they were kids, shes not even just an emotional abuser."
Kids get in fights, which is what actually happened in the show because they were five year olds. At no point in their time in the Horde does Catra abuse Adora, because abuse comes from having power over someone. At no point in their friendship does Catra have power over Adora. This is part of the double standard that people are talking about.
You need to learn to not like things without pretending that they are in some way 'problematic'. This moralizing projection on any queer art that deals with messy themes does not bode well for any engagement with any adult media. And cruelly smearing any nuanced queer media as somehow harmful is itself far more harmful than any cartoon of this sort ever could be, even if it did bear some resemblance to the thing that you described.
I adore your shirt. I absolutely see the limitations in the Catra redemption arc. But if we can learn to love Vegeta, who fell FAR FURTHER, we can still love Catra.
Exactly. I don't see Catra as irredeemable at all. If Norman Osborn can apparently get the redemption he's seems to be getting in the comics right now, then Catra's is a walk in the park lmao. I always enjoyed her character, even with the writing flaws and all.
@@cosmicsongbird3047 I feel like, given how awful the writing in Amazing Spider-Man is at the moment, Norman might not be the best example to use here.
I really liked Scorpia as a character, but I always felt off with Catra and Scorpia's friendship, and how Catra was treated as kind of ungrateful by the fandom. Scorpia's toxic positivity, was an angle I had never considered before.
I kept waiting for the show to reveal/discuss that Scorpia was like that because it's how her family had tried to protect their kids' survival in this oppressive regime, and how that's not helpful/healthy but just a different maladaptive coping mechanism. But I guess there's only so much you can do in the runtime given
@@helenl3193 For me it was the princess reveal that threw things kind of off. Like even if the Horde manipulated Scorpia into joining, she still had way more power and leverage (including a magical WMD) than Catra going into it, so it was weird seeing her treated as a fandom baby instead of the conscripted child soldier.
@@helenl3193Scorpia’s parents were absolutely collaborators who sacrificed their young daughter to the Horde, and the Horde kept her deliberately uneducated, and ignorant of her true (princess) nature and power.
That’s my headcanon. You’re not going to convince me otherwise.
@@MysteryDisc I haven't rewatched it and hadn't remembered that aspect, but you're right it's definitely a distinction that's often ignored in the fandom.
I adore the character of Catra. She shows the consequences of abuse and how this can become a vicious cycle. And with Catra we also see that she never stopped being put in positions where she had to fight for survival (Shadow Weaver, Hordak, Prime). But we also see that she hasn't always been "evil", through the memories we see that she also has good sides and moments.
I once saw someone say "Zuko's story starts from the ground up, and Catra is falling down and has to build herself up again." and I think that makes a lot of sense. At the beginning of She-Ra Catra is doing well-ish. She is being treated horribly, but she has Adora and their promise to look out for each other is intact, giving Catra a safety net. But then Adora defects and everything crumbles for Catra. In Season 3 we even see a full-blown panic attack when she learns that Shadow Weaver escaped and went to Bright Moon (to Adora). Her speech in the Crimson Waste is also hitting hard. "Threats only work on those who have something to lose. But I don't have anything to lose anymore."
Her character is incredibly compelling. And for me, her redemption/healing arc never started in season 4/5 but from the beginning of the show. She always kept noticing how fucked up her actions were, and so on.
YEEEEEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. these are ideas and conversations that constantly rattle in my brain every time discussions about "redemption" pop up. catra...faith...regina... azula...all some of the most compelling characters and personal faves. this is an excellent video, thank you so much for making it and adding this angle to the conversation.
"Love is cool, actually." Ftw.
@@DahVoozel soooooo true
Oh hey it's you! I love your video essays!
@@5x5Takes Hey it’s the person that created two videos that expertly explained why Catra and Adora are expertly written characters. How have you been?
Skylar White, not Cersei, being 3rd on that list is wild! WILD!
🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
Right! Why is she even on that list with those people in the first place?!! She was … what? Mean to Walter while being married to him? The other people on the list are committing war crimes and atrocities! Cersei murders babies!
Maybe because male audience love Cersei because they think she’s hot while hating on Skyler for being a foil to Walter.
i love skylar there was nothing evil in her..
@@eriklonnrot3578 Ikr? How dare she, *checks notes, object to her husband starting a drug empire in their backyard! Do Walter White stans forget, how destructive drug addiction is in a community?
/rhetorical
When I made my very long video essay on She-Ra, I talked a lot about Catra and why I think her redemption story is phenomenal for exploring the concept of the cycle of violence in detail. Now I am planning to do another video on Catra after a few more essays.
I like to say a golden thing about redemption that a lot of people usually miss is that *redemption is not deserved.* That is just forgiveness. Redemption is a long and gradual process with no flipping of the switch moment. It's a series of choices and a long learning process to reject toxic idealogies to lead a better life.
I also want to talk about how I think some of the reactions to Catra's arc also show an ignorance of how some children go through abuse. I think some people have the idea that all young abuse victims are shy, meak, and passive, when the reality is that there are tons of abuse victims that display toxic traits just like their own abusers. The thing I love about She-Ra and Catra's character is that she teaches their audience abuse victims don't have to display their abuse in a comfortable way if they want a better future. Even if they're angry, prone to rage, violent, etc, they can still find ways to be introspective of their actions and find ways to make themselves better. It's also why I love Joe's character from Moral Orel and I appreciate how Dino and crew made what seemed like a simple bully character, a story of a child who has known nothing but neglect and anger finding a way to be a better kid when he found out his mother was still alive. The idea Catra should have been either banished or killed would have been the actual terrible message. Children who display their trauma in uncomfortable ways are not only destined for death and destruction. That's the idealogy of Horde Prime, keep in mind.
Awesome vid. Also, the Catradora shirt. W.
I have this opinion with Chloe Price from Life is Strange, and how the fandom reacted to other characters with trauma, Kate was submissive with how she expressed it and alternate timeline Chloe is so broken she cant be mean, people prefer you to be passive and quiet about your shit, maybe THEN people will want to talk to you about it.
Chloe and Rachel are loud and openly flawed to the player and that's why people dont like them. Even tho all the fan favorite characters are awful in the first game...like...Frank sells rape drugs hello?
@@CloneCaptainRex7567I definetly want to talk about the underlying bias against females too in my Catra essay. Let's not lie, a lot of the hatred against her character also relates to a general hatred of more active female characters.
Characters like Lois Lane from MAWS, Skyler White, Mabel Pines, Teela from the Kevin Smith He-Man reboot sometimes get the same level of hatred and they're not even war criminals in their stories. They just take big issues with what the male characters do. Not to mention a lot of those same people also love characters like Vegeta, Walter White, and Omni-Man.
Ie if one is gonna think Catra deserved to be executed I wonder if they have the same mentality for a character like Vegeta. Considering everything that saiyan did he is BEYOND lucky Goku isn't in the mood for revenge.
As someone with BPD who went through horrible abuse as a kid, some of the reactions to Catra's redemption arc are genuinely depressing. And some will go "Oh but it's just a character in a show" but people do talk about people with conditions like BPD the way they talk about Catra. It's hard, at times, to deal with the knowledge that there are people out there who think you're an irredeemable monster, no matter how much work you've done.
@@Aondeug My mother has bipolar disorder, so yeah. The fact people just shrug off Catra as a monster is sickening.
100% the idea of the 'perfect victim' is so damaging to all children who grow up in abusive situations and that's why I get so upset when people react this way to imperfect victims in *children's shows* not being punished for how they express their trauma. Catra sees that she has the power to do good and she uses the opportunity, and then she feels good for the first time and everything changes. It's such a good message, a lot of kids need that and frankly a lot of adults need that.
A redemption arc that always reminds me of Azula is Franziska von Karma from ace attorney. She was raised by an abusive father who valued perfection more than her own life, she had to grow up fast and take on adult responsibilities as a teen, she lashes out violently when she’s even a little annoyed, and she has an older brother who had his own famous redemption arc. She even has a breakdown in front of her brother when she’s finally bested by him, where we see her cry and admit how much she both loves and resents him and the pressure of her own identity. Something I especially like about Franziska is that her redemption arc doesn’t dilute her character - she’s just as abrasive and prideful but more willing to fight for justice instead of just herself, admit when she’s wrong, and let her brother into her life.
Her arc is less about being redeemed fully and more about witnessing the start of a long healing process as she faces a life outside the context of her abuser. I think Azula would really benefit from an arc like that.
@@theoctopus7191 That sounds beautiful and you just convinced me that I immediately need to play ace attorney
YES FRANZY! Love her being mentioned❤
She's a great character
I really felt for azula, and it hurt my heart every time I rewatched the series and heard iroh dismiss her as a monster and beyond saving… like maybe she ended up beyond saving bc no one around her wanted to save her…
I think it's likely a trauma response from seeing the same spiral into egomania that Ozai went through under THEIR father's cultivation. He probably tried to steer Ozai away from the whole mass genocide thing when he went on his own redemption quest, only to end up in a position where the two brothers literally never speak to each other again.
He's tried, and he failed, and he wants Zuko to at least save himself first rather than get dragged down failing to save someone who doesn't want to change.
azula exists to show that there are people who can't be saved and it's true!!
An underrated redemption arc for a female character is Shayera Hull AKA Hawkgirl from Justice League/JLU. *Spoiler alert*
Shayera originally joins the justice league as we believe to be the last of the Thanagarians a refugee and last of her people residing on Earth. Through two seasons she is one of the 7 original members of the justice league and forms bonds with her friends and a budding romance with Jon Stewart. Fast forward to the 3 part season 2 finale of Justice league and it is revealed that Shayera is a spy for her home planet of Thanagar and she was sent to Earth to keep tabs on the planets defenses and other crucial info. It also is revealed she has a lover high ranking in the Thanagarian military. The Thanagarian forces then proceed to invade Earth and Shayera sides with her people begrudgingly as the rest of the Justice league are defeated and find themselves on the run. Shayera has torn allegiance between her new home and old but ultimately sides with the Justice League and Earth but she now has been branded a traitor Earth and Thanagar. Thanks to Shayera's last second betrayal of her own people the Earth thwarts an invasion but now she has betrayed an entire planets trust and her status as member of the league is left to a vote that is split between the founding members. Before Shayera hears the outcome of the vote she exiles herself and quits the league in Shame as a traitor as she knows she doesn't deserve her spot on the team. She then flies off and ends her relationship with the man she loves Jon Stewart and is missing for quite a few episodes when the series rebrand into Justice league unlimited.
Shayera's first appearance in JLU unlimited shows her seeking asylum with Dr Fate and Aqua man in seclusion. In this episode she is brought back to action when Solomon Grundy's soul comes back from the beyond and needs to be sent again. Shayera befriended Grundy before he died so this is personal to her. This mission has her encounter Justice leaguers like Jon Stewart and Superman and they work together and solve the problem. Shayera at the end of the episode finds herself being harassed by a crowd of people who haven't forgiven her for betraying the Earth and they are quite hostile to which Jon comes to her defense as he still loves her. Clark then tells her that she is welcome to join the league as she never stuck around to hear the verdict on if she was kicked out of the league. Superman tells her himself he was the decisive vote that swayed the decision on allowing her to rejoin the justice league. After that Shayera is greeted by a grateful mother giving her thanks for saving her child during all the chaos of Stopping/saving Grundy. She now is on the path of redemption and the message is just start with one person at a time seeking forgiveness.
Hawkgirl now found herself back welcomed into the justice league but the status quo still isn't reversed. There are a couple of episodes that shows not only did the people of Earth not forget her betrayal but her fellow Justice leaguers. In JLU the justice league expanded so we an episode where Shayera must work together with new recruits one of which was held captive by Thanagarians in Vigilante. In the same episode we see the few survivors of the failed Thanagarian invasion play as the main antagonists of the story and are out for revenge on Hawkgirl. Another episode we see her having to come to an agreement with Wonder woman who held an even more personal grudge. Shayera slowly moved on from her betrayals, torn friendships, and sabotaged romance and regains her status among the hero's. She gets closure and acceptance while never fully being forgiven by all who were hurt by her actions. It's a realistic redemption arc and one of the best of the DCAU.
YES!
The Buffyverse isn’t perfect but I appreciate their take on redemption. Especially that it’s not about getting enough points to wash out the bad and then you reach forgiveness. But it’s the choices you make every day to do better even if people still hate you and the consequences of your actions keep biting your ass. It’s far more interesting than for example Star Wars where Vader and Kylo Ren keep making bad choices but then turn Good only to die immediately. Or cases where the villain flip flops so much that redemption eventually becomes unbelievable (Handmaid’s tale for example with Serena).
I don't think Serena's arc was intended as a redemption arc, but as a depiction of privileged member within a suppressed class..
But i agree with your comment on the buffyverse..they did it well when it came to redemption..it also didn't demonise everyone who chose not to forgive.
I wouldn't have been able to contain the scream of pure sapphic adoration that would have escaped had I seen Lana Parilla in the flesh, so props to you
Oh god, I’m getting emotional even just hearing She-ra Season 5 *described.* That season is tied with Return of The King for media that makes me ugly cry the most.
the convo about characters facing & hating their oppressors, and to what point it makes them dehumanise others makes me think of my favourite freedom fighter Kira Nerys from ds9 I love the different ways her character journey explores those ideas (and while the show sometimes mishandles it) I think overall viewers rlly get to go along on that journey with her in a fun & interesting way!!
I really enjoy Kira because her story isn’t really about being redeemed, it’s about finding peace. Like she’s not trying to absolve herself for what she did, she’s not even really regretful of what she did, she’s trying to transition to not being at war and having to take the most drastic action.
@@bluewilliams4911yes definitely!!
Yes!! I love Kira and her storyline. She’s the prime example of a nuanced portrayal that, to use the example from the video, Avatar is missing.
Thank you! I never understood why people hated Rose Quartz so much. I understand the narrative kind of uses her as a crutch of the past biting Steven in the present but compared to the other diamonds, at least she tried to leaen be better. Watch the show backwards and its like Rose grew as a person.
As someone who relates to Pink, thank you 🥺
Like, not only did she know that her trying to start a revolution as Pink Diamond was never going to work, but I believe that in her heart Pink Diamond was already dead when she made Pearl stage her murder. People wanna act like Rose Quartz lied to everyone because she loved to deceive people and it drives me crazy
I was going to comment about Regina from OUAT, and I'm happy that you talked about her! I'm in the same boat, Lana Parrilla carried that show and that character so hard. Even at my height fandom obsession, I kept thinking, "Why have any of you forgiven her?!" But like you said, the show itself is just.. so bad from a critical viewpoint.
I also want to say, what a beautifully realization of words you've attributed to 'I like Baddie Character, not just because I think they're hot" @2:45. There's quite a bit of baddies I *love* and I've never been adequately able to explain why. (And in my twisted mind, them having a Regina OUAT turn-around xD because honestly I could never love an actual baddie )
I love when you talk about Xena! I like how Gabrielle often acts like Xena should not be held accountable for her past actions in light of her new lifestyle but Xena never agrees with her and submits to consequences even when she could escape. I like how the show handles the two approaches to redemption and ultimately agrees with Xena.
I just watched the Philosophy Tube video on death, and it definitely speaks on parallel levels of this video. The question of who are we allowed to grieve is super interesting and important
Having recently finished Umbrella Academy, the conversation around Allison Hargreeves and whether she deserves a redemption arc plays into this. I found her to be the most tragic character in that show but a lot of people hate her. All she wants is to have a life with her daughter and apart from one instance, that is always taken away from her because of something her family did, and that’s not including the stuff that happens directly to her because of the stuff her own family does but everything she does is considered unreasonable by the other characters and fanbase.
I mean, she sexually assaulted her foster brother and it's heavily implied her ex-husband was only with her because she mind controlled him.
Not saying she wasn't deserving of redemption, but these things go totally uncritiqued in the narrative. It goes right back to what Princess said in the video about female moral ambiguity and sexual assault
@@InRealTime769the SA was bad. The ex-husband one felt purposefully ambiguous in that it could be an ex-partner slandering their other half in a custody battle and how women, especially women of colour, are regarded as always having to cheat to gain success.
"we need more complex, nuanced female characters" yall cant even handle Catra
Klaus audio in the middle of the video made me laugh so hard during my lunch break. 🤣
JUSTICE FOR KENDRAAAAA!!! I'd forgotten her name after all these years, she had such CRIMINALLY LOW screentime. So thank you for reminding me!
Buffy's a hard show for me to talk about online cuz I want to complain about stuff I disliked (I was semi-forced to watch it with my dad when I was too young, like, age 13 or 14. The whole thing. Mega awkward), and places that encourage that tend to encourage overall woman-hating, which is NOT my bag....
As a sidenote of She-ra discussion, I always found it weird we're supposed to root for the "Rebellion" made exclusively from human (or something similar, like human-angel) royalty in multi-intelligent species world, where "not cute" non-humans are exclusively in the Horde, while "cute" non-humans are servants of the Princesses...
I think you touched on my thoughts as well. Azula was personally always my favorite character from last airbender.
I dont think she needs redemption. But i want to see her grow. I want to see her be able to recognize and confront the roots of what drove her actions, what manipulated and effected her. And then be able to figure out how to get past those things. So that she can start defining herself in the truest sense. A lot of how she vies the world and others is because of what she was taught, or forced to think. I just wanna see her grow past those things. Which doesnt have to equal to redemption - per se..
I love that I am having a full circle moment with your channel. I am LITERALLY watching Buffy again right now and am on season 3 and was just thinking about how Faith needs a deep dive and BOOM here’s this video. It’s full circle because I discovered your channel a couple of years ago while rewatching Buffy and seeing your Buffy The Vampire video. Thank you for your continued amazing work and videos.
it's interesting how different cordelia's redemption arc is from faith's. i guess this video is maybe only about the redemption of characters who do evil things. but i think the mean-girl redemption of cordelia is interesting just in terms of her role, the role of class, and the way the show treats her intelligence and capabilities.
(angel's and spike's redemption arcs are more similar to faith's. i guess willow also is a kind of female redemption arc in buffy that does involve killing. and harmony is also an interesting case?)
YES. cordelia’s arc is one of the best in either series. her last appearance is so bittersweet (and i hate the writers for how and why it happened) but it showcases how far she’s come so well. she’s truly in it for the good of the world, knowing her own happiness would be sacrificed. “angel, there are no people like us” hits so hard.
i also love harmony’s story and that it isn’t really a redemption. seeing her try her best but unable to truly do it, or care, in the end is crunchy.
unfortunately i have the same issue with willow that i do faith. where is the actual acknowledgment of and atonement for the people, especially the loved ones, they hurt? it isn’t that they did bad, it’s who they did it to.
Given that “good guy” Angel is a canonical groomer in the show, him having a stronger redemption arc than the female characters doesn’t sit right.
@@matthewevans107 imo the things angel does *while ensouled* are irredeemable.
@@matthewevans107 Years ago Charlie Jane Anders wrote a piece for Io9 about how everything people were criticizing _Twilight_ for, _Buffy_ did first, and I couldn't disagree.
Gen X did not grow up with Avatar the Last Airbender. Millennials and Older Gen Z grew up with Avatar the Last Airbender. Gen X were adults when Avatar first came out in 2005 but I agree that Zuko had the best redemption arc. Azula’s life was the most heartbreaking to me. I remember rooting for Zuko and Katara until I heard Azula scream and cry in anguish. It’s been years since I watched that episode but it stuck with me to this day.
She didn't say "grow up with" she said "brought up" as in who they mention in a conversation about the topic. And younger Gen X are most likely also Avatar fans.
Thats one thing i think was handled excellently by the show. Although a fourth season dealing with the aftermath would have given time to redeeming Azula's character, they still showed that the battle between her, Zuko, and Katara wasn't epic and awesome, it was tragic because she was an incredibly hurt person who couldn't understand how to interact in a world where power-seeking and selfishness weren't going to win her anything. I think people feeling she should get a redemption after that, although it isnt present in the show itself, are reading that scene as intended.
I think a lot of the hate for Catra is often that she seems to be really ENJOYING being bad too, as well as being good at it. She absolutely has a streak for destruction, and that immediate gratification of success is like a bit of a drug, so often that it's only later it settles in how horrible some of what she has done was... Which makes her feel like she's a bad person, and that's all she's good for, so she deserves to feel bad, but also wants that brief rush of villainy. It's always a cycle, a spiral of self destruction which I think the show manages to portray really well. It's really very similar to Faith, though I'm not really sure why Catra gets so much more hate. Maybe it's because it's a cartoon and more kidsy show, so people expect more black and white, so Catra being a villain most of the show gets filtered into the evil side automatically.
Honestly, Catra is the character I feel like best answers the "what if Azula got a redemption"
Catra is an Azula who was treated like a Zuko until she found an authority who treated her mildly better. If you were to give Azula a redemption arc, it should be like Catra's. But I think Azula remains a distinct and interesting character because she doesn't have a redemption
@@fangsabre Azula's probably my favourite cartoon character of all time, and as much as I love her I don't feel like she needs a redemption. She serves as a good cautionary tale, and a suitably tragic figure.
I was also extremely into Once Upon a Time and it’s validating to hear you stopped watching around the Frozen storyline too
They had a base to make compelling characters & stories, it just got so convoluted and they couldn’t stick the landing. I’ve thought about trying to get back into cause I usually like to finish a series I’ve spent so much time watching but after this I’m gonna let that go
Thanks for another great video!
I would love to see a Bossa Nova musician-type resistance character within the fire nation. In Brasil's heavily censored and authoritarian environment, Bossa Nova artists resisted by choosing chords that were discordant over happy lyrics, implicitly communicating that not all was well. That could play really well in Avatar, given what we see in Ba Sing Se.
Loved this video. This is my own bias, but I'm hoping that after Arcane season 2 airs, characters like Mel Medarda get mentioned in conversations like these more across all of UA-cam. I can think of few characters who have been given more unfair treatment within the last few years tbh, and though it remains to be seen where she'll end up by the end of the story, her own redemption arc was telegraphed much more strongly than her male counterparts, and they get much more sympathy than she's ever gotten
RAAH CATRA'S REDEMPTION ARC MENTION🗣🗣 RAAH PRINCESS BUBBLEGUM MENTION 🗣🗣
but no fr. this was such a good video!! i remember after she-ra came out feeling just BAFFLED that Catra wasn't being gassed up like Zuko. frankly, I prefer her arc over Zuko's -- not that I don't also love and adore him and his journey!! But I just thought it was so bold of them to, like you said, present this female character who COULD very easily slot into this evil lifestyle and was GOOD at it, but had worthwhile emotional depth to be explored by the narrative and thus wasn't just relegated to that position for the rest of the story. i think too that like, on a fundamental level, Zuko's starting point of earnestly believing in the nationalism of the Fire Nation -- or at least, earnestly trying to earn the approval of his father by demonstrating said nationalism, -- was just not the same as where Catra was. like you said, Catra KNEW it was an evil world that she was a part of because she was a victim of said evil. she was wise to it. I think that her then actively CHOOSING to renounce said evil later on in the story, even after she has built up this laundry list of sins she'll have to carry with her and atone for as a newly Reformed Member of Good Society, makes her so cool to me.
plus i'm the #1 PB defender that I know so i really appreciated you bringing her up too. people act like she was this Big Bad that Never Should Have Been Allowed To Do All This but the world of adventure time is just so fundamentally removed from modern day ideas of morality that it's honestly super commendable she ended up in a healthy state by the end of the narrative. imagine that, from the day you were born, you had another person relying on you for everything, and that the world is so barren of life that indeed the only "people" around for miles for a good minute are people YOU created yourself in a lab. who then wouldnt have the craziest control freak complex of all time to unlearn?? would most ppl be able to handle it better than her, in her situation? I don't think so.
I'll never understand how they constantly framed an irrational fool like Oliver Queen as correct over just about everyone but especially Laurel over and over again.
Fantastic video!
obsessed with your shera fail safe tee and how it fits with one of the redemption characters being Catra
Disagree about Regina. Her beefing with Snow makes total sense when you remember that she was forced into marriage with Snow's father/the king and was also forced to constantly be around Snow and act as Snow's new mom, all the while completely unable to speak up against her situation or express any anger towards Snow because Snow, as her father's beloved (literal) princess, held an incredible amount of power over her. Snow didn't realize she held that power, because she was young and self-absorbed (I love her, but, the self-absorption was real), but she did hold it, and Regina was subject to that for ten years before she finally offed her abusive husband. I don't at all blame her for being angry, especially given that Snow remained so oblivious to her suffering. I see her story as one of someone who is deeply oppressed by society, who is essentially gaslit by both her family and society as a whole, both of whom tell her: this is normal, nothing bad happened to you, why aren't you happy? Only for her to say: no, fuck you, what happened to me was wrong and I'm going to make it ALL of y'all's problem until you admit it. IMO the real villain of OUAT was Enchanted Forest society. (Which is why if you think about it, Regina's curse was, uh, kinda good, actually.)
The sexual assault aspect is the major problem I have with her arc, but honestly that's a huge problem OUAT has in general. Regina was a victim of marital rape and it's never acknowledged as such, although I do think the writers knew what they were implying; Graham sexually assaults Emma and it's never acknowledged; Hook sexually assaults Emma, harasses her before she 'gives in' to his advances, and makes multiple rape threats/jokes/implications and it's played off as haha funny sexy; Emma tries to rape Hook after wiping his memories in a situation copied right out of Willow Rosenberg's playbook and it's never acknowledged; Rumple sexually abused Regina in the past and also fools around with a memory-less Belle; and of course there's Zelena's rape of Robin; and so on and so forth. With Regina's rape of Graham, I feel like the writers leaned on some really disturbing stereotypes of sexually aggressive and dominant Latina woman, which also ties into disgusting racist & misogynistic ideas about Latina women and other women of color being so sexual that they are 'un-rapeable' (which, given that Regina is a rape victim who is never named as such, is extra disturbing). I think OUAT's handling of rape is worth talking about...but I admit I tire of how often the OUAT discussion focuses only on Regina when so many of the other characters have committed sexual assault too.
I also don't think her dying would've been a good ending. The show is about redemption and the possibility of second chances after you've done bad things. By the end of the show everyone has done bad things or been revealed to have done bad things. IMO it would've felt strange for Regina to die to redeem herself while the rest of the characters merrily carried on redeeming themselves while living. It worked for Rumple (IMO, though his arc was messy as hell) because his whole thing was cowardice & selfishly trying to keep power. Him sacrificing his life in the finale was about finally being brave and relinquishing control over his situation. But Regina spent most of her life being miserable and WANTING to die. Then she only wanted to live for Henry. It was only in the last 2 seasons that she really learned to accept herself and want to live for herself. To me one of the only truly beautiful & impactful things OUAT did was show us the story of a woman of color who had been systemically denied freedom & personhood her whole life (much like Anakin Skywalker in fact -- IMO he & Regina have a lot in common), who hated herself and wanted to die and wanted everyone else to hurt like she did, and then to show us her long and difficult journey towards healing and eventually becoming a hero and community leader who loves herself and is loved by others and improves their lives by being in it.
Anyway that's my long ramble. Great video as always, but I felt it was fitting to defend a woman's redemption arc in the comments section of a video about celebrating women's redemption arcs. ;)
P.S. Bonnibel Bubblegum did nothing wrong!!!
This Xena character seems awesome. Like holy crap, was the other show good too or is Xena just goated for no reason
it is a very camp show and dated in some ways, but overall it's amazing
Personally I couldn't get into Hercules. Xena is the better show, so I'd say just watch episodes where she debuts/ crossovers
Faith didnt just assault Riley she also nearly SAed and killed Xander which is also swept under the rug.
You breaking open ouat's terrible redemption arcs tore open an old wound I thought had healed years ago. Wow that show took a really cool premise and drove it into the the Earth's core. Great cast, great costumes, great music, God awful everything else. (I also watched it as a teenager who got veeeeery invested in dumb things. Simpler times.)
so so so excited to see a xena chapter. It gets so often overlooked for everything besides it's queerness, and while that is important and integral, it was so much more. (side note.. If I see one more video calling 'Once More With Feeling' the first modern musical episode.. )
(I love omwt but there is no way it would have been written if not for The Bitter Suite)
@@matte5705 Even _Lexx_ had a musical episode before Buffy did!
Yes yes yes! Xena remains the me of my favorite characters and favorite shows and did everything Buffy did first and though I love Buffy too I get so tired of Xena getting overlooked.
all of the women in the buffyverse deserved so much better 💔 you can really see joss' hatred toward women more and more with every rewatch... also i looooove the buffy content
Finally! Been waiting since I saw this on Nebula to be able to click Like! Honestly, your discussions on these difficult topics are always such a tonic, because they manage to be deep and nuanced, while calling out shallow virtue signalling as well as poor writing. NOT EVERY VILLAIN NEEDS TO BE REDEEMED. A great redemption arc is fantastic, but if everyone *could* be redeemed then the stories would become very 1-note. Hama is one of the greatest characters in ATLA because it is completely understandable why she became so twisted and cruel - but that doesn't alter the fact that Katara must stop her. And as much as I love uncle Iroh (to infinity and beyond) the one thing ATLA fumbled was showing us anything substantial about his redemptive journey and having ever to come face to face with his previous actions. We see him grieving for his son, but that is not the same as making up for being a willing war monger and coloniser.
Yeah, it was very frustrating that he becomes so one-note in that sense - he lost his family and saw the error of his ways, but instead of making amends, or fighting for those under the oppression of the fire nation, or even just BOTH OF HIS child nephew and niece(!!) He just decides to look after Zuko.
Is he this wise, virtuous man, who realised the errors of his(/his family's) ways, or did Zuko just get lucky because he looks like his dead cousin?! Would he have been on his own (&/or would Azula have been more likely to get considered for saving) if Iroh had had a daughter instead of his son?
I liked that you changed up the end theme. I was expecting the usual one and started singing it but was pleasantly surprised
Was just about to comment on the insane Skyler White slander when you brought it up. Respect.
Slight pushback on Zuko being incompetent: He was exiled and given what was thought to be an impossible task by his father and is compared to his genius sister who has support (militarily) and resources. Plus deep down I don't think Zuko really cared about the mission. There is that episode he chooses to help his men over capturing Aang. I think there's a separate episode where he again chooses to save Iroh over Aang. Plus he's 13 when he is scarred and exiled from the Fire Nation. He did not have as much of a chance to be a competent antagonist.
Side note I'm opposed to Azula being redeemed outside of fanfiction. We don't have nearly enough cool, female villains as is.
Tbh I think the reason Zuko's redemption is so popular is for two reasons. One: its well-paced, less rushed than other arcs with plenty of pauses and a self-reflecting atmosphere. Two: Zuko was never among equals, every fire nation citizen and every family member (including Iroh cuz of his age) had more privileges than him as an outcast disfigured child. Now he had military power over citizens of other nations, but only by enacting his father's ideology, which he was raised to do. Meanwhile with Catra, we see her around what we perceive as her equals all the time, characters presented as potential friends. They arent her equals because she becomes a captain over them but I think some people see the mistreatment of potential friends as very damning, because it isn't punching down (which can be defended by 'societal brainwashing') or punching up (which feels fair), it's lashing out to someone trying to help. Even though, in Catra's case this makes total sense with her story arc imo. Zuko is so isolated, he doesn't really have this. His only equal until he befriends the gang is Mei when they are dating where he is overall respectful and treats her well
Zuko had an entire ship full of resources and personnel and his uncle by his side. Azula pretty much had her two besties and a dream. Also she is given further development in the comics when they go looking for their mother.
I think people are quick to elide that he had his crew because he shuts them out entirely from his actual issues and the point with him and his crew is that him showing basic kindness is very notable because thinking about others was supposedly best out of him and I do not think any of them could help because his actual issues are within his family (and his family is the royal family). His crew also only exists until the beginning of season 2, when all are arrested or the crew is broken up because Azula successfully leads Zuko on that he thinks his father is nice. Zuko basically only has his uncle. Admittedly, his uncle is a fount of therapeutic and spiritual advice, but it is still one person.
Catra feels partly a victim of the show being unfair to her. I am inclined to accept that her redemption was a later addition, or at least hammered out quite late, as there's this recurring theme of Adora and co. trying to turn her coat. But the most egregious has to be in Season 3 where one of those times was Glimmer and SHADOW WEAVER, her abuser, telling her to come to the good guys side RIGHT before Catra blows up the multiverse. The last time Shadow Weaver saw Catra she manipulated her emotions to help herself escape, and left Catra to get punished. Just like Adora did.
And for some reason it's presented as this like, last-chance for Catra before she goes over the moral event horizon. But....most people would be primed to push a button and make it all go away under those kind of circumstances, after THAT many triggers.
That's the point though, Catra points out how unfair and hypocritical it is that Shadow Weaver would get to go over to Brightmoon after all she did, and lecture Catra about doing the right thing, when Shadow Weaver was instrumental in Catra being the way she is
Let's goooo princess video while I'm struggling through a project. Thank you for what I'm sure will be another banger
The IDW Transformers comics had a great thematic throughline in questions of redemption: namely, who decides "when" someone has redeemed themselves, who gets to even make that call, and what does redemption look like, especially when someone has caused more harm than they can possibly resolve? Megatron is the centerpiece of that theme from Dark Cybertron to the end of Lost Light, but truth is that *everyone* in that continuity has those same questions lobbed at them, because *everyone* eventually does something that you could argue needs to be atoned for. Out of the female cast, we see Windblade as an agent of societal redemption (her being of a colony that was divorced from the Great War until after it was over; her relationship to Starscream is easily the focal point of 'Til All Are One and its tackling of redemption as a theme) and Arcee as someone who needs it.
Arcee starts out similar to Faith-- a Cybertronian of lesser means, worked her way up from the gladiator pits (iirc) alongside her brother, endured immense torture (with a bonus gender transition that was retconned *out* of being nonconsensual, thank god) and proceeded to be among the most dangerous Autobots in the post-war political scheme. However, over time her anger lessens, she starts to advocate for herself, and it eventually leads her to a happy ending complete with a girlfriend and a mentorship role to the new generation of Cybertronians. I admit I haven't read much of the comics that involve her, but her story is nevertheless impactful. She is explicitly a trans woman who learns to be happy.
Granted, because IDW was so sparse with female characters until its back half, we didn't get a lot of female redemption narratives. (There's also Blackarachnia in Beast Wars/Beast Machines, I believe, though I've not watched that yet. No, I'm not counting TFA Blackarachnia, her story was a complete waste. I won't go into it here.) Hopefully a future continuity will give us the food we deserve. Maybe featuring one of the Takara trilogy gals? Mega/Overlord? Esmeral?
IDW TRANSFORMERS MENTIONED, HELLO.
Honestly, MTMTE and Lost Light in particular had such interesting things to explore and say about redemption and how far is too far to earn it, and I don't think I will ever be able to forget it. The care in which each character and everyone around them has to confront their actions and come to terms with their mistakes and how they can, or have, to atone for them is so well done. From the characters that do redeem themselves and does that refuse to do so, I really appreciate what James Roberts did.
Like, Megatron's last words to Rodimus before being taken to trial one final time? Harrowing.
Megatron looking over his field of flowers is one of the most heartbreaking moments in a redemption arc I’ve experienced.
I loved your take on this.
TLDR for the below ramble: nuance is great video is great and this below issue is the largest problem that I see when discussing female antagonists.
This is the exact reason I hate the lack of nuance when it comes to media analysis I have seen generally. The idea of “it’s not that deep” robs stories of substance. It makes it frustrating when I describe nuanced takes on things because i usually get a disagreement without any of the thinking behind the opinion(symptomatic of getting an opinion from someone else and not analyzing how they came to the opinion) or when I analyze a text based on the origins of the text itself(for example controversial texts and the way the came about. A really good example of this is how Lolita the book is discussed). Both of these issues frustrate me to no end because you’re allowed to hold opinions and so I cannot discount the ones I disagree with but in the circumstances where we are discussing a difference of opinions if you are trying to argue that I am wrong you better actually have an argument ready. And that argument better not be “I don’t see it that way” without any elaboration. It’s nonsensical because they are trying to get me to change my stance or trying to point out how I’m wrong but refuse to actually elaborate on why that’s the case.
I think the comparison between Rose Quartz and Endeavor is an interesting one, because while there definitely is a gendered backlash to Rose's actions and her selfishness, I think part of the problem is just Steven Universe being messy by trying to incorporate a story about a toxic family unit with fantasy space colonisers obliterating planets. The scope is so far beyond the crystal diamonds and Stephen that when the resolution is "make your shitty family sit down and listen to you", it resolves one side of the story, but undermines the trauma and hurt caused to millions of living beings who don't happen to be in the in-group. As you said, when you stretch the crimes far enough, just pathos doesn't cut it anymore.
Looking past that, I remember seeing a tweet where a person stated they didn't necessarily blame Rose for disliking Spinel because they could see how she felt suffocated by her life and how Spinel was an extension of that. The general response to the sentiment was utter bewilderment for someone daring to defend Rose's abuse of Spinel, even though the tweet wasn't claiming it. Merely trying to see her side of the story is seen to be defending her abusive behaviours, whereas when you look at Endeavor's redemption arc, which I didn't like (coming from the second biggest Endeavor simp after Hawks) and thought was dismissing the voices of his victims by centering it so heavily towards his path to righteousness, I find that people are more willing to dissect and discuss that dynamic from multiple angles. It does make me question how much more willing we are to forgive someone when that story is told from the abuser's perspective.
Thank you thank you for taking a moment to point out that a character growing & changing does not inherently equal redemption arc!!! Bringing up the bad faith hate towards Sansa also kinda reminds me of some of the hate Mabel Pines got (weird comparison I know but hear me out). Like, apparently any time a little girl is in distress & gets tricked by older, more powerful master manipulators it’s all her fault and she’s horrible.
"Through the power of healing 🐓..." Ha ha ha! This killed me.
I know “redemption” in this discourse means something specific, but I believe it should include antagonists becoming their best antagonistic selves.
A villain with a crisis of faith, finding renewed purpose and genuine joy in making things difficult. A villain with an affinity for cruelty, learning empathy and compassion for their minions. A villain who is inspired by the hero’s passion and drive to protect others, and changes their motives to mirror it, though their interpretation remains ambivalent.
Basically, a villain who heals past trauma and unlearns toxic behaviors, even though they remain opposed to our heroes. Probably a bit more common with dramas tbh but still.
Faith the Vampire Slayer is my favorite character in the entire Buffyverse
The one thing that sets her apart from Spike, which I’m not sure why the spike has so many fans faith changed because she wanted to change and not because she wanted to get into someone’s pants
Thank you for reminding me why I love the character so much
Spike has so many fans because he is fun to watch ..
Smolder, hot abs, great oneliners..what's not to like?
And faith sadly did not have nearly as much screentime within her redemption arc...
Eliza honestly should've been a series regular on Angel. She was in some of the best episodes of the series!
🗣️Listen you went off with this video…the delicious handpicked examples, the iconic character references, THE REDEMPTION ARC!!! Women’s stories are thee best for this (and the fact the majority are queer or queer coded stories is an extra layer).
The way we’ll ride and fight for these types of characters has been perpetually studied and written about from so many angles and I never get tired of seeing new perspectives. You ate (as you always do) with this one Princess Weekes!
Update: after having just arrived to the Faith section of the video when you were talking about light and dark characters, I thought about your last video and how you explored race, coding, and ethnicity. It’s super duper interesting to me how the majority of these characters that need redeeming are “dark” featured, hair textured, or outright women of color…I’ve always found that thread of the redemption arc part of media really interesting with real world overlaps of how racism and othering works in tandem. Some creators don’t even realize they are writing racial or ethnic types for these stories but when casting happens and the stories play out, oh yeah it can quickly become loud and unavoidable in the narrative.
Writers didn't always feel like they were on the same page with what they wanted to do with Faith
Honestly I really liked Regina’s redemption arc. Yeah, they center it on individual characters we care about rather than coming to terms with how she burned down entire villages. Her redemption is always centered on how she hurt the Charmings or sometimes a few other individuals. But I like how she goes from wanting to be better so Henry will love her again to wanting to be better for its own sake. Every time she backslides it’s because someone offers her an opportunity to take a shortcut to what she wants, which is for Henry (and eventually Emma, Robin, etc.) to approve of/validate her. She’s only good when it seems like the easiest way to that. But by season 4 she reaches a point where she has a chance to backslide in the same way she has before by using Zelena’s time travel spell to kill Marian and get back with Robin, and she starts to but decides against it. That moment where it becomes about being better for the sake of being better rather than because “being better” is a way to get what she wants… it really resonates with me.
Though Rumple and Zelena’s “redemption arcs” were trash. And Regina’s had its awful moments too.
"I was raised in catholic school, so I do have a soft spot for martyrs" 🤣🤣
Excellent video as usual. I also really liked your video about people being obsessed with redemption arcs because I am of the mind that not every antagonist/villain needs one. Regarding Catra, I will admit the first time I watched She-Ra, even though I did understand why she acted the way she did, I did not find myself being attached to the character the way I might have with Zuko and did feel that redemption arc was a bit rushed. However, after watching your video about what people get wrong about Catra, which is one of the reasons I love your videos so much is being challenged to look at things from a different perspective and reflect on why I am not loving her the way I love Zuko, am I being hypocritical, is this my internalized misogyny kicking in. I ended up re-watching the show and completely came away with a different perspective on her character arc. I still have some gripes about how it was handled and will say to your point about how sometimes the writers up the stakes too much before these characters are redeemed, there were 4 seasons of Catra being an antagonist vs Zuko’s 2, so I still wish that the ultimate turning point happened a bit earlier. Ofcourse the result is the same and as you said they still spent the same amount of time on the good side. Obviously, you can’t deny that just by default of Catra not being a man, sexism will always play a role in how she is perceived, discussed, etc vs Zuko, and then you add the element of her skin tone too which adds another layer.
Also loved your point about Zuko being bad at being a bad guy doesn’t make him any less complicit in the fire nation crimes, which I think ties so beautifully to your point at the beginning of the video with the fire nation citizens doing nothing to stand up against the system and benefiting from it. I do have mixed feelings about Azula when it comes to redemption, but I understand why some people felt that at least a redemption arc should have been explored and it certainly would have been interesting to see how it played out had s4 happened.
Sorry, this was a long incoherent mess. I can’t wait for your hotd video!
Damnit. I've gotta go pick up kids and then get them fed and coach soccer and supervise baths and shit. You've gotta drop another video *now*??
Looking forward to watching tonight!
Will never have enough of analysis of catra Specifically what an icon
Haven't finished yet but I love Azula and sometimes I think we need to put the fandom in timeout until they can be normal about a fourteen year old girl raised by genocidal maniacs who was groomed to be one herself and literally broke under that pressure. Love your videos ❤️
My biggest problem with ATLA is it's insane fandom.
I will never be normal about Azula. She is FOURTEEN. She's been left by everyone she ever cared about. IROH thinks she's beyond redemption. She moulded (broke) herself into the perfect weapon for Ozai, and he threw her away. She has a mental breakdown where she hallucinates her own parents (and in the original script, her friends too) talking shit to her. She explodes in rage whenever something about her isn't perfect. She ends the series literally CRYING fire. And she's a fucking war criminal. "My own mother thought I was a monster. She was right (...)" I mean excuse me???? Holy shit this girl needs a hug. And she'd kill whoever tried to give her one.
I never understood the Skylar hate.
She was forced into complicity in crime by her husband and that ultimately ruined her life. She is well within her rights to find this situation disagreeable.
Also, yeah, she did collaborate with Walter White so as far as she was his accountant for Season 4 she is at fault, but given that Walter White is so tempestuous he probably would have coerced her more forcefully if she said no; even if she did make the choice to not pursue that path, she is very literally trapped by being the wife of Walter White (being that she actually looks after the family and needs direct control over Walt Jr/Flynn to ensure Walter is not manipulating him).
I'm not saying that the reactions to Catra are rooted in explicitly transphobia but the timing of people turning against the show in general after the near fanatical love it received on Tumblr at its inception dovetailing right as Nate Stevenson came out as a trans man should not be discounted.
This was undoubtedly a factor. Another is that a certain contingent of adults who exclusively watch children's cartoons demand a ridiculous level of purity from said media.
That being said, it was mostly misogyny to begin with. People say they want complex women in media but they can't even handle a cartoon villain catgirl with an onscreen kill count of somewhere between zero and one.
I’m not gonna lie you connecting your love for these damage characters had me shook. I’m gonna be having this internal discussion for at least a week now.
32:48 thank you! The thing is, I was on the opposite side of this, ever since Graham's death- Justice for Graham!
I could never get on board with Regina's redemption because the show kept reminding me of the thousands of victims she had and then ignored them.
Azula, Scarlet Witch, Xena, Faith... : "I can fix her." 😅
I haven't finished watching the video, yet, but had to comment - thank you so much for acknowledging Xena! I saw the thumbnail with Faith, Catra, and Azula and the premise and was completely intrigued so I clicked, and then when you talked about Xena's arc I subscribed. She isn't mentioned much in pop culture analysis (there's an incredible podcast called Xena: Warrior Podcast that goes through each episode and is very fun) and like you said, she is a really good template for the female redemption arc. Anyway, really enjoying the video and your analysis so far!
Edit: OMG yes, justice for Fuffy!
I've been in probably the same threads about Hama and Jet, and my hot take ig is that those characters were handled well. In isolation, portraying victims of violent colonialism and ethnic cleansing as The Villains is fucked up-but, not so much in a story where the majority of speaking roles and named characters are people militantly resisting that same oppressive force. Notably, what distinguishes Hama and Jet from Hakoda, Bumi, and the Kyoshi Warriors, is whom they choose to set their efforts upon: civilians vs. military targets.
i think the thing which never sat right with me about the conclusion to hama's arc is that she just gets carted off to fire nation maximum security prison again in the end and the show never really comments on this at all and its sort of just treated as a given that her being put in jail is a "good" thing, even though she would have never invented blood bending or developed her animosity towards the fire nation citizens had she not been kidnapped and imprisoned by them in the first place... it always struck me as really fucked up and i wouldve been more okay with it had the show seemed interested in acknowledging that its a fucked up thing to happen to her in the end. its just a victim of colonial violence being subject to more colonial violence, but its "deserved" now. it felt at odds with the rest of the show to me.
@@triangleman2627 It honestly would've been so much better if, when surrounded, Hama disappeared into a conjured mist and was never seen again. Would've been more ominous, she would literally haunt the narrative after as Katara later goes down her own vengeance arc, and we wouldn't have a "prison is okay" ending.
Hama’s blood bending affect the story up to Korra season 1, so it is definitely fair to make her leave like a ghost thematically even if they were going with logistics.
It literally would have been kinder of the Gaang to kill Hama. Sending her to a *fire nation prison?* After everything she's been through? That's, like, s2 Azula levels of cruelty
Azula was a great character because she was evil. She didnt seek redemption, the writers didnt cave to fan pressure and try to heap redemption on her. She wasnt handled with kid gloves because she was "14" as some of the fan base so desperately wanted. The writers owned up to the fact that by the time you are her age, you know good from evil, and if you want redemption you have to seek it; something Azula clearly was not interested in.
I respect her as a character for the same reason I dont respect modern She-Ra's Catra as one. Catra is evil, knows good from evil, isnt really interested in redemption and doesnt really do anything to earn it, yet the writers just heap it on her anyway.
I didn’t watch Breaking Bad when it aired. So when I finally started to watch it, I knew Skylar was such a hated character. I kept waiting for her to derserve the hate, which never happened (tbh I haven’t finished the show, stopped near the last season.)
When I saw your She-Ra T-shirt, I knew you were cool. When you accidentally said Shadowheart instead of Shadow Weaver, I knew you were a kindred spirit - I just stopped playing BG3 and started watching this 😂 relatable content
What Hama did wasn't really even resistance, it was just dumb. Even though she was hostile territory she was just making herself a target when she should have been hiding and kidnapping random civilians doesn't do anything to stop the fire nation from waging war
To this very day, Shou Tucker from the 2003 version of Fullmetal Alchemist still causes a visceral reaction in me. He has this disturbing whispering voice in the Japanese series that honestly freaks me the heck out for some odd reason.
Small rant. The story of Shou Tucker works so much better as a 2 part episode, and possibly my only gripe with Brotherhood is that they condensed it into 1 episode.
Personnally , I see Azula like the kid who adapted . She saw how Zuko was treated and decided to be what her father expected her to be to have peace . It is like the second child learning from the "errors" of the first child.But she has to be the crazy prodigy girl at the end .
I saw two reactions concerning Catra , the first one is that people loved the redemption arc etc... and the other one despise it .There are more and more people who dislike seeing abusive and toxic relationships on fictions but there are other people who seem to dislike Catra for petty reasons . Because there are a lot of villains getting redemption arc and end up with the girl . My best example is Damon Salvatore . Even the actor recognized (I am not sure if the same exact words) that if his character put a fire on an orphanage people would still find excuses .
I think the problem with Catra is that she is not a boy or a men and she is not conventionnally attractive , she is looking more like a stray cat .
I watched this on nebula but wanted to comment here.
Really good video and thanks for your take on Regina. I love OUAT & also that character but something never clicked with me on her redemption arc: like you said the worst things she did never got fully addressed whilst the smaller bits got some recognition but her evolving into a good person usually came with caveats.
Also just a small observation; I always saw her hatred for young Snow as an easier outlet for Regina. She can’t get justice against her mother, her lifelong abuser, who was the one at fault for the incident that ruined Regina’s life, because Regina feels powerless against her. Instead Regina projects her anger at Snow, a child who’s easier to blame and imagine getting revenge on, as she isn’t an all powerful sorceress who can take everything away from Regina. Unfortunately it informs a lot of her character and her actions - taking out her anger on others not the cause of her pain and therefore continuing the cycle of abuse. That’s just what I saw anyways.
Can’t wait for your House of Dragon video - I only just finished S2 👍🏻
Rowena MacLeod had an oddly great redemption arc on Supernatural, which is a show that's not exactly known for handling their female characters well
That Kevin Sorbo dig, THE SNORT I SNORTED 😂😂😂😂😂
You cite Willow being a lesbian as the TV show Buffy being queer friendly, but that was actually biexual erasure. Most of the characters on Buffy were bisexual, but either Joss or the network refused to say the word.
Supposedly, it was the network. Then the later seasons/comics confirmed that almost everyone's bi (except for, like, Cordelia I think)
The backsliding of Regina got to the point where no matter how much they tried to 'redeem her' it always felt so hallow and like the writers wanted the brownie points for making this character redemption without any real work. I loved her as a character until it got to the point where her character just became "oh everyone and everything is just out to attack me even though I'm good now" and its like, ma'am you assaulted a man for decades, murdered him and caused lasting trauma. I wanted so bad for her character to grow, really change for the better and create a better path, but they never did the work and just threw the ultimate crown on her head at the end.
I think it might have played out differently if she had spent more time getting to know Emma as a person rather than antagonizing her for the first season was real because while Regina is the main reason Emma spent a lifetime in the system, they are pretty similar in terms of personality and parental issues. Emma seems to be more like Regina than her biological mother. (I am aware that Emma is kind of a threat to Regina's position as Henry's mother, but Emma didn't go looking for Henry, he went looking for her.)
Redemption is partly the character, and partly how the arc is told. At least for me, no-one wrote a redemption arc better than Zuko's
They did have that fire nation sage who aided the gang before Roku showed up in spirit. But he was never shown again and arrested
Lana Parilla is literally the only reason we watched OUaT up to and past the Frozen season. As a Latine, I loved seeing telenovela levels of pettiness and enjoyment in being evil. Parilla and Robert Carlyle were acting far beyond their pay grade and quality of the script. The show deserves its own video essay with how it kept building up complex storylines and topics before squashing any nuance with a hydraulic press.
Regina and Sydney were the only noteable PoC in the town. I don't think it was intentional, but between that and the non-American accents of the villains, it's hard not to notice.
The constant reboot of Rumpelstiltskin's character every season was so infuriating. He redeems himself and becomes a changed man who's willing to commit the ultimate sacrifice . . . unless. The writers honestly didn't know what to do with Rumple and Regina past their redemption, while simultaneously being aware of the fact that these two characters held 90% of the charisma.
I didn't know how badly I needed to hear such a well-thought-out analysis of OUAT, having been a huge fan for years only to end up blocking it out of my memory (I also bowed out at the Frozen season LMFAO). 2017 me feels so seen, at long last. Regina was also my favorite, but it might be more accurate to just say Lana Parilla was my favorite, lol.
Yo, can we get a whole video on Catra? I have heard the arguments you made one other time before, but I feel like I still need to be walked through the progression. I am interested in understanding the redemption arc differently, but there's a *lot* of pretty unforgivable shit that she does
One could easily make that argument for just about any character that goes through a redemption.
Does Anakin Skywalker deserve to be one with the force forever considering what he did to the younglings?
Does Arthur Morgan deserve to be considered a great redemption story despite his years of robbing, killing, and at one point beating a struggling family in poverty to repay a debt to Straus?
Does Vegeta deserve a happy ending with a wife and kids considering how the first time we see him he eats native citizens before blowing up their planet?
Like that's just how redemption stories go. If your character isn't doing a good amount of awful stuff it seems there's a severe limitation to make their redemption story seem compelling, drastic, and engaging. Like should all redemption stories be limited to somebody like Hunter from Owl House or Zuko from ATLA to be considered good? And even then Zuko did commit what is considered an act of genocide. Burning down Suki's village and causing displacement.
I think it's important to remember for a character to have a redemption arc they need to do horrible things to learn from and grow from. So the act of going "well yes you did messed up things because you were a victim and in a horrible place and want to grow from it, I'll let the person who said something mean once do that but not YOU though cause you're too far gone."
That negates the entire point of a redemption. It's what I love about Catra and why I hate when people say Amity Blight had a redemption arc. Amity didn't need a redemption because she wasn't a bad person, yes there were misunderstandings and hurtful things said but she was a kid acting reasonably (if you actually view the show from her perspective it was totally understandable why she'd see Luz as a bully and hate her). An actual little girl doesn't need a "redemption" for being catty. But Catra does. Because she DID actually do horrible things and a lot of the horrible things she did came after she doubled down because SHE believed HERSELF to be too far gone and thus didn't try to be better. If you've been in a similar situation it's difficult to put into words but acting like people who do horrible things that are "unforgivable" shouldn't even attempt redemption is just counterproductive. The people you hurt don't HAVE to forgive you but this feeling is more akin to even people you didn't hurt directly will hate you and you deserve to be hated which isn't true (once you've actually done the work). But many people, like Catra, just give up because they think no matter what they do, they've already done the one thing thay will mar their character forever and they're not allowed to become good people after. Hope that makes sense.
i dont know if redemption amd forgiveness are the same thing. she's trying to do better, and i think to my memory the show does a pretty good job of showing that most of the people around her don't forgive her and wouldn't have anything to do with her if the circumstances weren't so dire
@LangkeeLongkee being that we were abused in similar ways to Catra, were toxic before and had to do a lot of work to be around people/accept love/etc., we want her to be redeemed. The issue for us is that it felt like the redemption was too short and didn't offer enough time for the actual weight of what Catra did to truly be reckoned with. It felt a lot like she got a cat, kissed a girl, and everyone was fine with her. Someone above mentioned Zuko and Vegeta, but Vegeta gets multiple seasons' worth of redemption, Zuko was incompetent and had comparatively long to come to terms with his shit *and* got damn near multiple seasons to be redeemed. Catra is an effective squad captain who levels a village in the second episode (maybe third, we're high and can't remember) and only ups the ante. Among other things, she kills Glimmer's mum and nearly collapses the universe. I feel like she deserved a much more fleshed out redemption because of that weight.
But I am rewatching it to try and pay closer attention to her interactions and stuff to see if these arguments make sense. One thing I only really realized from this video is that Adora isn't really a dependable friend to Catra and lets her get the full brunt of abuse a lot of the time.
@@theraggingscorpion Vegeta had full intention to commit countless genocides and saving Earth didn't become a priority until the ending of Buu. Also, Vegeta's sacrifice didn't even do anything. Buu got back to fighting pretty quick. In contrast Catra had temptations to leave the Horde as early as Season 2 when she was about to takeover Tunglasher's gang and when she was regretting everything in S3 when Scorpia left. Not to mention, her kiss saved Adora's life and because of that, led to the ending of Horde Prime. Without Catra, the whole universe would have been f'ed.
Also that thing with defending Vegeta negates the original argument of a character doing unforgivable things leading to a bad redemption arc. If Vegeta and Anakin Skywalker can make ammends after what they did, there's no reason why another traumatized child suffering from an abusive childhood can't either. All this endless focusing on the war crimes Catra does under the Horde while Vegeta wiped out billions of lives in the planets he destroyed and almost let the whole universe go to hell in Cell simply because he was jealous, and then there's Anakin who killed children personally, aided in a galactic genocide for decades, murdered Luke's adoptive family, maimed his son, and threatened to turn his own daughter evil. And we are supposed to think he can get good forever because he threw one slightly more evil man down a shaft?
Why brush aside all the horrendous stuff Vegeta and Anakin did but emphasize the stuff Catra did?