Bit of Catford/Catford Bridge action going on there then. PS I grew up in Deptford in my early years and always loved seeing the tube going over the bridge where I lived - I thought they lived in tunnels all their lives and it was nice to see one getting some fresh air.
I live on Telegraph Hill, which rises up from New Cross Gate, my local station. I'm strongly in favour of renaming it Telegraph Hill. It makes geographical sense and would eliminate the confusion. Incidentally, on the anagram map of the Underground, New Cross appears as 'No Screws'. New Cross Gate is 'Escargot News', which just shows we are a far more sophisticated lot and deserve a posher name.
New Cross Gate station narrowly escaped being obliterated by a V2 rocket on 25th November 1944. Instead the weapon impacted on the adjacent Woolworth and Co-op stores, both of which were crowded during a Saturday morning shopping rush. Luckily two crowded tramcars had pulled away moments before otherwise it would have been even worse than it actually was (which was grim indeed). I think there is certainly a relevance for both stations today because they have good public transport connectivity for both rail and bus.
My late father started his signalling career at North Kent East signalbox the next one up from New Cross's old Odeon signalbox. The night of the disaster at St Johns, he just a lowly box boy RAN along the track all the way from NKE signalbox to St Johns and was one of the first railmen on scene. He never talked about that night and it caused him much mental distress in later years.
Watching this I was suddenly struck that I had been idly wondering why there were two New Crosses - off and on - for more than 40 years. And today I get an answer. I can't quite describe it, but it feels like a tiny part of my life is satisfied. It's a very welcome feeling. I'll go to bed happy that one oflife's questions is now answered. Thank you so much for making this video.
I lived in Telegraph Hill near New Cross Gate and worked in the City for 20 years. Going north in the morning the choice was East London Line tube to Whitechapel and change onto the Metropolitan or Southern to London Bridge and walk over the bridge. Returning in the evening there was the added complexity of both trains and East London Line to New Cross as well as to New Cross Gate. The walk home from New Cross was longer but depending on the timetable it was sometimes quicker. The Overground, redevelopment of London Bridge and smartphone travel apps have somewhat simplified the calculations.
The trains from London Bridge to New Cross Gate are now only every 30 minutes even the rush hour (despite lobbying Southern not interested in restoring pre-covid levels). That means the average journey time is 27 minutes for 5 miles which is ridiculous. It's a choice however I have to make often having to travel to/from Chartered Accountants' Hall in Moorgate.
It's the Joolz Guide of London transport. An absolute treat each and every video. Work in the Canary Wharf, travelling from New Barnet but frequent user of Rotherhithe station, closest station to Fischer FC's home stadium. Mon the Fisch!
Well done Jago, I love your videos. In about 2010 I managed to walk through the Wapping to Rotherhithe tunnel, along with a considerable number of others, on the open weekend before The London Overground took it over.
Thank you so much for explaining this Jago! When we visited London last year we stayed in Brockley which of course is the next Overground station after New Cross Gate. One night we took what looked like a much less crowded train to New Cross and discovered why. I really wondered why both these stations with almost identical names were so close. Now I know. Railway history in the UK where virtually all lines were built and acquired by private companies is so much more complicated than the ones in Sydney, which were all built by the Government of New South Wales. We really liked the Overground (it had AC) - in fact despite the noise, the heat and the overcrowding I thought the London tube generally was fantastic. You could get almost anywhere but no matter where you went in London, it always seemed to take an hour from Brockley. (Stations sometimes did have an odd way of suddenly being closed "for staff shortages" though and we would pass through them). Thanks again!
"New Cross" was the destination showing on London's very last (first generation) tram No. 187 in July 1952...before, that is, the souvenir hunters nicked the destination blinds.
The middle island platforms at New Cross Gate are semi-abandoned now. Fast trains on Brighton line no longer stop here and pass straight through. Not sure exactly when that changed, perhaps around 2019.
2018, when the new Thameslink timetable was implemented. But apart from a brief period when we blissfully enjoyed a direct service to East Croydon and Gatwick Airport for a few years until 2018, they've been largely disused during the whole time I've lived in the area (since 1989). At least they never removed them like they did with the fast platforms at New Cross.
I especially love your Tales from the Tube and Orations on the Overground, Jago! Very neatly packages content! There are a few other instances like the New Cross/Gate one. The Lea Valley line springs to mind with its split at Hackney downs, and that odd meander it does through Walthamstow marshes before joining again at Tottenham Hale, then connecting _again_ at Cheshunt. This leads to several parallel stations in close proximity, such as Turkey Street and Enfield Lock, the aforementioned Tottenham Hale and Bruce Grove, and particularly Waltham Cross and Theobald's Grove, which are allegedly so close that you can see one from the other from the right angle (but necessarily a 90° right angle). There's also that funny termination at Enfield Town which just screams that it could have connected at Lavender Hill, or ever perhaps have continued on to Forty Hall, Goff's Oak, Wormley and beyond. What happened there? Someday there'll be a public transport focused PM. Someday...
Had the line continued it = would cut the town in half and reconnect with the Hertford loop line at Gordon Hill station ~ 🤨 very awkward, unless the railway is buried into a tunnel from the station and resurfaces in the holtwhites hill cricket ground; and the blocks of flats I can see from the back of our house wouldn’t exist/the estate being cut in half with railway infrastructure
You say that as if they didn't completely gut Genotin Road and redevelop Church Street and London Road back in the '00s. Actually I think they're nearly done with the further expansion they started a few years ago. Plus the station has been there since the 1800s. They were already carving their way through North London to build it. But you're right. There could be a tunnel that extends the line further. I like that idea a lot! More trains in Enfield, please!
I studied at Goldmiths as a mature student. When they moved all tuition online in late February or early March 2020, I moved from a shared house on Telegraph Hill back to my own flat in coastal Kent. Was pretty annoying that the 'slow' (i.e. older, non-HS1 line) train passes through - but does not stop at - New Cross, so I'd have to go to London Bridge, where inevitably I'd arrive just as the train to Orpington (I think, this is a few years ago) via New Cross was pulling away, so would have to wait about 20 minutes, then take 10 minutes going back down the same line to New Cross, then a frantically rushed 5 minute walk from New Cross station to Goldsmiths campus.
New Cross Gate because there was a turnpike gate there at one time - at the junction of New Cross Road and Queens Road about 250 yards west of the Brighton line station.
Nice one, I never knew that both stations were called New Cross for much of their life. With the Overground takeover and expansion, New Cross does feel like the "unwanted" stub, when compared to the through services to Croydon and Crystal Palace on the New Cross Gate branch, and the services to Clapham Junction missing out New Cross altogether.
Interesting question whether Overground trains could be extended through to Lewisham which is a more useful interchange, or even down one of the lines towards Dartford. The connectivity at both ends of the Dalston Junction - New Cross service is poor especially as not many main line trains stop at New Cross.
Aw was so hoping a mention of the quite busy Deptford Wharf branch that ran off just past the junction between the two New Cross's, also the now long gone small interchange yard at New Cross Gate which was still in use in the 70's for Transfesa stuff mainly but stock storage also.
On a recent visit to the capital I stayed at Deptford bridge and took the 453 bus into town and noticed how close they were together… my apparently completely wrong theory was that New Cross didn’t have enough platforms to turn around the terminating services hence the existence of New Cross Gate. Thanks for putting me right before I told anyone else this (in the unlikely event that someone would listen)
Always fascinating to find out more things about stations we have passed through many a time without thinking about them as we go to and from our daily trek to work.
I won't say it kept me awake at night but the New Cross (Gate) situation has occasionally aroused my curiosity but not enough to go and find out. I never suspected a connection (other than the physical) with the Wapping Tunnel.
New Cross LU Depot was on the right of the line shortly after leaving the station. There was a short platform so that staff could ride the short distance there in the cab and the Motorman, later, Train Operator would halt next to it to it to let the staff member out. You can still see the site of it now.
Way back when, immediately after you left the main line station, on the right, there was an entirely separate station for what are now the Overground lines with an exit in what is now Goodwood Road.
Looking at this place on a map, I think that there could be potential for an exchange station around Surrey Canal Road. Adding in side platforms should be no problem spacewise. And it should be possible to place those platforms without getting problems with important switches. The ~200m between the platforms should be perfectly doable, especially if there are roofed walkways added in. Such an exchange station would have the benefit of making it possible to use any East London Line train if you want to change onto the mainline. Additionally it would also be possible to change toward the line through Greenwich.
Sounds like a cool idea, though unlikely to happen: the space around Surrey Canal Road is largely occupied by industry and is gradually being redeveloped as dense 'mixed use'. There's actually space reserved for a station on Surrey Canal Road but only on the Overground branch to Clapham Junction. It's supposed to happen when the adjacent site around Millwall's New Den stadium gets redeveloped.
I’m sorry to say but the London and Greenwich railway first opened only as far as Deptford and reached bothGreenwich and London Bridge a bit later - hence the lovely pub quiz question “what is the oldest passenger railway station that is still used in London?” being “Deptford”! Deptford is also where the first ending shed was and it was accessed by a ramp at 90 degrees to the line, the arches of this ramp are still in position.
Also the Fantastic band Dire Straits began in Deptford where Mark Knopfler shared a flat with another band member, there is a Blue Plaque up, and Wrote a song " Telegraph Road " maybe after Telegraph Hill
It got to Greenwich pretty quickly though - a temporary station in 1838 and the present one in 1840. But thanks for the pub quiz answer, see if it ever comes in useful!
Both New Cross and the Gate are useful, especially since the Overground appeared, but not as much as they might be. Not enough trains stop on either the "South Eastern" or "Southern" routes to provide useful onward connections from east London. I was surprised when coming down the East London to find that the fastest way to get to East Croydon for my connection southwards was to get off at Canada Water, take the Jubilee back to London Bridge and change on to a train which passed through New Cross Gate without stopping. Similarly if you're coming up the Overground from the stations like Norwood or Brockley you usually can't change at New Cross Gate to get to London Bridge, and have to go on to Canada Water instead.
They used to. Southern had a semi-fast, calling at Norwood Junction after New Cross Gate and a stopping service to Croydon. The first went when the new Thameslink services opened, then the stopper went at time of Covid and never came back.
Indeed. I've lived in the area pretty much equidistant from New Cross and New Cross Gate for many years and though the Overground has been a major improvement, traditional National Rail services at both stations have notably declined, particularly at New Cross Gate. A few years back it had a Southern service with 8 tph in both directions, including a half-hourly fast train to Gatwick Airport and Horsham that ran non-stop to East Croydon. That went with the completion of the Thameslink project and the suburban trains were never fully restored after Covid, with the last direct East Croydon services withdrawn in 2022. It now only gets 2 tph each way between London Bridge and London Victoria via Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction, a quirky and occasionally useful little line that Jago should probably do a video about if he hasn't already, but not one large numbers of passengers want to use. Thameslink trains have always run through fast though there are platforms for them to stop. The Bakerloo Line extension plans include an interchange at NXG so if/when that ever happens, maybe they'll stop the Thameslink. New Cross still has a decent level of service to London Bridge on Southeastern, 6 tph, but they all continue to Cannon Street: the direct connection to Charing Cross was another Thameslink casualty. In the other direction they continue to various suburban southeast London destinations. Fast trains run through -- the platforms on the fast lines were removed many years ago -- and if you want to continue reach anywhere more far-flung in Kent or East Sussex it's almost always quicker to go to London Bridge and back out again.
@@desdemoor @ianjemma Thank you both for your very helpful replies. So the obvious implication would be to restore the stops on the Thameslink service. It's ironic as it's a through service from Peterborough to Horsham with 23 intermediate stops and taking nearly 3 hours. But there might be a time constraint on the local London section.
A generic point is "inner London suburb hubs" (a few miles out of the termini) and their National Rail service. For example, Finsbury Park and Stratford are very effective with all outer-suburban trains stopping. Clapham Junction is excellent for the Southern but a bit patchy for SWR especially in peak hours. Lewisham is better than New Cross, and New Cross Gate has seriously declined as noted above. West Hampstead and Willesden are less useful than they might be due to loss of platforms on through lines. All these locations offer possibilities to get from longer-distance destinations to London suburbs without going into the termini. At one stage I was considering working at Brentford and it was remarkably difficult to get there from reasonably affordable areas in Hampshire.
@@iankemp1131 Not sure what the issue is, it might be station capacity too, they're afraid of increased footfall as even with the Overground improvements NXG still has relatively restricted circulating areas (though nowhere near as awful as Norwood Junction with its narrow subways and steep steps and no lifts, where you now need to change if heading for East Croydon and points south). It's not just the Horsham service, all Thameslink trains on the Brighton line pass through the fast platforms without stopping.
Back in the day, if you went to Shoreditch end of platform you could see the Liverpool St trains running in and out as BR maintained the old portal albeit track cut right up at the wall with a barricade and heavy buffer as last thing BR wanted was a LT train overshooting and wrecking into Liverpool St trains. The first line leftwards on Liverpool St was back in the day very busy, Bishopsgate Goods Station used it to transfer freight for the south east, running a train into platform then SR would with a pilot of course run backside in and hook up and off it would go to Hither Green or wherever for onwards movement coming off at New Cross. This arrangement was complex and it pretty much stopped the platform for being used for passengers and Liverpool St's demand was going through the roof for passenger revenue so they cut the connection and routed the freights round via the North London lines to come out at Kensington for interchange there.
Are there any plans to extend southward from New Cross station? It would seem like a perfect way to extend to Lewisham then more southward paralleling the Bromley Road route. OR eastward for that matter towards Blackfen & Bexley? Overground routes have to be less expensive to construct than underground routes. It isn't the similar name or the closeness of it's location, but that it is both of those things AND the end of the line. If it route extended past that point it might make more sense.
As Jago suggests in his video, the lines used to connect at New Cross, with SER trains via the East London Railway continuing to Lewisham and beyond, but the London Overground platform (D) is now a bay with a buffer stop and the 1970s station buildings blocking the way beyond (originally the buildings were on the bridge carrying New Cross Road over the railway). When the Overground was planned, they did consider reconnecting it and continuing to Lewisham, which is also a DLR station, but the idea was abandoned partly due to cost and partly I believe because of capacity issues and conflicting movements on the lines to/from London Bridge. There have been other proposals: the Jubilee Line, when it was still known as the Fleet Line, was originally planned to serve underground platforms at New Cross, before emerging alongside what were then the BR SR tracks into Lewisham. They even dug a test tunnel at New Cross which still exists though is sealed off -- I'm sure you'll find videos on UA-cam about it. There's also long been talk of an extended Bakerloo Line reaching New Cross before taking over the Hayes line currently operated by Southeastern. I believe the latest Bakerloo Line extenstion plans are to serve New Cross Gate instead and continue underground to terminate at Lewisham, with the Hayes line option still possible for the future.
The new cross station used to come in handy for graffiti. We would climb the lamp post next to the underpass where the train would stop, and paint the train as the driver walked from one end to the other. Only got 5 minutes at a time but was much less hassle than breaking into the depot, which is another story. That lamp post would wobble from being climbed up so much.
3:35 It's surprising that Gilbert & Sullivan didn't write an operetta about the goings on with London's competing railway companies. There was plenty of material there to use.
"Thespis" with lyrics by W S Gilbert is probably about as close as it gets, with a song beginning: "I once knew a chap who discharged a function On the North East South West Diddlesex Junction."
Well. I wanted to go to a gig in New Cross but unfortunately the only ticket available was for New Cross Gate. Dunno why that's a complaint because it's only down the road and it gave me the chance to get some fast food on the way. British Rail at its best. I managed to see the whole gig, catch the last train from NCG and walked through my door in Eastbourne at just 1.15 am.
From Eastbourne you couldn't easily* get to New Cross without going through New Cross Gate and doubling back at London Bridge, which would take much longer than walking between the two and cost more. So the ticket you were sold was the correct one. (*if you really insisted, you could have gone via Hastings and Orpington, but why would you do that?)
These always seemed odd to me on tube maps in the 60s/70s. "Why?" I asked myself ...or perhaps inverted Y. Now it all becomes clear ....ish. I bet if somebody proposed closing "New Cross" there would be a slew of complaints. On the other hand, maybe extending it somewhere like has happened at New Cross Gate, might be possible.
I was thinking along the right lines with the 'You are the _____ to my _____' line this time - I wondered if it would be something to do with the tunnel!
Until the formation of the London County Council in 1889, the two New Cross stations were in different counties - New Cross Gate in Surrey and New Cross in Kent - the only Underground station in that county. The use of platform letters at New Cross, as at Waterloo East, is to assist the Fire Brigade, so that they go to the right platform at the right station should the need arise. Kings Cross Thameslink, when it was open, also used letters.
As do the Elizabeth Line platforms at the Underground core stations. Also Waterloo East. Aren’t the new Thameslink platforms at St. Pancras also lettered. Thinking of platforms 9 3/4 at King’s Cross, has there ever been a real platform anywhere that actually had a fractional number?
I have the feeling that Jago simply likes to read out as many names of train companies in London as he possibly can. Lucky for him, these companies had the foresight that in 2024 someone would have a need for them teaming up in various constellations. 😂
Thanks for another interesting and informative exposition Jago. I've often wondered why the New Cross Gate service was changed from Underground to Overground... ah well, perhaps some other time :)
The ealry development of the railways were an aboslute mess of competing companies and I wonder if the status by the 1960's was based on this uncontrollled mess and so the kick back from Dr Richard Beeching should have been expected! This story highlights one of the issues - too many competing companies - thanks for the story JH and keep up delivering these 👍😁
A bigger, and more pertinent, question than naming is why New Cross Gate has a central platform which is almost never used. Despite extensive reconstruction works, nothing has been done to take the opportunities for semi-fast trains to stop there, providing links eg to Gatwick and Brighton - and scope for passengers from these destinations to interchange on to the Overground.
What a Wapping great coincidence that the tunnel was just the right size and loading gauge for twin tracks. I had been thinking exactly that when you said that very point. Well actually, I had been wondering just what were the thought processes to its planned dimensions as Brunels old boy, Marc Brunel, started it and presumably didn't have any truck with this 7 foot and a 1/4" malarchy that his errant offspring would eventually be playing around with: which leaves the finer points of the dimensions these rival companies used in the first place and any tweaking needed to get them to fit in the tunnels. New Cross and New Cross Gate have always been on my mind. They stood there alone on the map, propping up everything North of the Thames. They always looked rather lonely and bereft when Carter USM came along in the nick of time and nabbed New Cross for their single The Only Living Boy in New Cross. I saw them live a few times in he 90's and had their badge on my guitar case. Worth a google if you like Indie punk (f*k yeah! Jump and and down, crowdsurf. G.O.D. Grow Old Disgracefully. Embarrass the kids, do unspeakable things with your false teeth- especially when you take them out. Ahem. Sorry. It's Sunday, it's raining and there's not much doin except to drink coffee and watch youtube pondering construction technique and lost youth).
I encountered these stations for the first time two years ago getting to the start line of the London Marathon from Hoxton. A year ago, again getting to the start line of the London Marathon, I went a different way from Hoxton to reduce the number of changes from the previous journey!
TfL should consider an extension on the New Cross leg, maybe down to Grove Park or even Bromley North. southeastern rail leaves a lot to be desired, not to mention paying a premium fare for worse service.
I apologise, now and retrospectively, for failing to commit to memory, but a small percentage of the information that you present. Rather, I revel in the ‘Brownian Motion’ which is the never ending growth and development, of the London Underground. Tis a wonderful thing. Thankyou.
Brilliant video thank you. In the early 90s I travelled to school from Rotherhithe via New Cross on the ELL to Blackheath on the North Kent (Southeastern post 1994) BR line. Occasionally bus to London Bridge and train back out. The ELL using old Metropolitan line stock was brilliant back then, a real time capsule to older underground days. Of course the Overground is far better and more convenient but lacks the character
There were two pubs with New Cross in the name opposite eachother. As far as I remember, the New Cross House had the lunchtime strippers and the New Cross Inn didn't.
😊 I seem to recall the one on the left hand side - heading toward New Cross station - was an "Irish Pub" ('frequented' by my Mum & stepdad ...with me,as a youngster, either left outside in the car with a bottle of lemonade, an 'arrowroot' biscuit, & a packet of "Smith's salt 'n' shake crisps" & sometimes, a nice big pickled egg!! 😊 ...or upstairs in the Pub's non-drinking rooms!!) 😮😊🇮🇪🧡🏴🖖
When I lived there one of these two were "Irish" pubs and you could buy the United Irishman there. I was born in 1939 (117 Pepys Rd). Moved north in the 60s. New Cross Gate station was still a terminus then.
😊 I've often been _through_ New Cross station (enroute between Brockkey _to_/_from_ London Bridge) but I've only been _to_/from_ New Cross Gate station _once_, (to travel _to_/_from_ an East London station called Clapton!) These are routes /stations well-known to me, (by name, at least), simply because I used to live _in_ Brockley - with my Mum - and worked (for about three months), at 'The Borough' (until one rather busy morning enroute to work, I _fell_off_ a train (& landed on my right knee, which eventually developed arthritis & has troubled me ever since 😢!!) as it entered London Bridge station, & was "rescued" by a non-related couple of commuters who took me to Guys' Hospital... Soon this resulted in me choosing to leave _that_ job, and travel _that_ route no more!! "End of" my New Cross station (& brief New Cross Gate station) stories!🚝🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃... 🤔😶😏🧡🏴🖖
Another point is, as built both stations had grade separated junctions, allowing through running of trains on both SE and LBSC lines. Implying they both had serious plans for through trains from other parts of their network.
@@surreygoldprospector576 There was indeed, though much more of freight trains than passenger. Both the East London line and the Snow Hill tunnel (now Thameslink) were very useful for this in the 19th and early 20th century.
There's a similar situation in Glasgow with Pollockshields East, Pollockshields West, Pollockshaws East and Pollockshaws West all situated within a short distance of each other
There is a 3 station section of line in parallel in West Yorkshire - both the Lancashire and Yorkshire and Great Northern served Cleckheaton, Liversedge and Heckmondwike. Neither line survived Beeching :(
New Cross / New Cross Gate could have had a life changing outcome. True Story: When my Mum and Dad had just started courting many many years ago they had arranged to meet at New Cross....or had they??? Mum went to New Cross and Dad to New Cross Gate. They eventually met up, with each of them teasing the other that they had gone to the wrong station. I am here today to tell the tale, but perhaps I almost wasn't😁😁. I love the videos, they are really interesting and informative.
My assumption had been that the overground don't want to run all of their trains further south and New Cross, having a terminating platform, was just an easier place to turn trains around than New Cross Gate.
I think it's more that the New Cross service was already extant and provided some useful connections on to the South Eastern lines. So they wouldn't want to go through the rigmarole of trying to close it, especially with all the publicity (rightly) about what an upgrade the new Overground service was.
"New Cross, New Cross. So good they named it twice......". "No. Hold on a minute..." lol. Excellent as ever, Jago sir. Ps. Totally unrelated, but there's a parody of the song, " New York state of mind,".praising Newport in South Wales. It's definitely worth a look. Hilarious.
The 'Old Cross' was the original Cross Inn at the road junction. When a second inn was added, it was called the New Cross Inn and ultimately the area was named after that.
Kings Cross and St Pancras next? They share an underground station and non advance tickets are also valid to either station. Euston and Euston Square might also be a contender. Even London Victoria and Manchester Victoria could work.
This is one of those situations where the Beck map shows its flaw, especially south of the river. The relative invisibility of National Rail lines makes this fork look as pointless as the old East London line did in the 70s. Not knowing that part of town, I always looked at this corner of map with bemusement. But it makes complete sense once you know about the non TfL lines.
The Brunel tunnels which the Overground uses must be the most ornate railway tunnels in the world. With the addition of a few crystal chandeliers, one would be rolling through a concert hall.
With New Cross and New Cross Gate stations being so ever close to each other. There are proposals for a new interchangeable station to be built as part of the Bakerloo Line extension from Elephant and Castle to Bromley North and Hayes. Plus I do also think there should be a a new London Overground station at New Bermondsey on Surrey Canal Road to be built and to be adjacent to Millwall FC The Den Stadium. As there were plans for a new station to be built close to the football ground.
The new station was going to be on what is now the Sainsburys store, but the Bakerloo ain't going to be extended in my lifetime and I think it has been permanently shelved.
Well actually "it's Good Morning" as I sit here in Montreal, Canada @ 11:18 AM Sunday Morning drinking my coffee as I watch this... ...so maybe it'll be Good Afternoon or Evening when you get around to reading this comment :-0 or maybe it's "Good Morning" to you too ;-)
Before the ELL became part of the Overground, were there any proposals (be it regular, express mainline or initally goods dedicated routes) to link it with up with the Lea Valley Line at about Bethnal Green Junction / Cambridge Heath by way of a sharp right after Whitechapel (akin to Met separating from Circle/H&C at Baker Street) or an alternate route remaining parallel to Cavell then Cambridge Heath Road before resurfacing to link with Lea Valley after Bethnal Green Junction?
That's an interesting 1830s print showing a train with carriages, literally made out of old carriages, or rather old stage coaches, thus explaining the term train carriages. Another example would be having to leave West Hampstead on the Tube/ Overground to walk to West Hampstead on Thameslink or vice versa. I wonder how much hatred spilled over when London Transport and British Rail were formed, as in how much money had to be used to pay people off. Presumably New Cross Gate was a defunct city gate originally, but was there a market or religious marker cross involved?
I always wonder why a handful of the 378s got refurbished and their livery changed with the black stripe around the windows extending to the roof. Assume it was to make them look more like the 710s, but they look far worse in my opinion. The cab looks so messy. And would far prefer more consistency across the TfL services' liveries. Just niggles me.
good evening, in my case. if only Marc Isambard Brunel or his son could have known that their tunnel would be used to run trains under the river... or their investors for that matter.
Bit of Catford/Catford Bridge action going on there then.
PS I grew up in Deptford in my early years and always loved seeing the tube going over the bridge where I lived - I thought they lived in tunnels all their lives and it was nice to see one getting some fresh air.
Afternoon Jago, the rescheduling worked flawlessly
It’s not often that something involving trains and rescheduled works flawlessly, but if anyone can make it work, Jago can!
It really did
a wonderful prescience, I had to replay it to be sure - bravo
I live on Telegraph Hill, which rises up from New Cross Gate, my local station. I'm strongly in favour of renaming it Telegraph Hill. It makes geographical sense and would eliminate the confusion. Incidentally, on the anagram map of the Underground, New Cross appears as 'No Screws'. New Cross Gate is 'Escargot News', which just shows we are a far more sophisticated lot and deserve a posher name.
And our guest publication this week... is "Escargot News"... :o)
Seems a travesty to name it "Escargot" when it's actually where "Estraingot". ... I'll show myself out.
On the anagram map Telegraph Hill could be "Heal the ill grape"
Is there a good anagram of Telegraph Hill? I did find "“Her Gallipot Hell” , whatever a gallipot is.
Nonsense. As everyone knows Telegraph Hill is in San Francisco.
New Cross Gate station narrowly escaped being obliterated by a V2 rocket on 25th November 1944. Instead the weapon impacted on the adjacent Woolworth and Co-op stores, both of which were crowded during a Saturday morning shopping rush. Luckily two crowded tramcars had pulled away moments before otherwise it would have been even worse than it actually was (which was grim indeed). I think there is certainly a relevance for both stations today because they have good public transport connectivity for both rail and bus.
My late father started his signalling career at North Kent East signalbox the next one up from New Cross's old Odeon signalbox. The night of the disaster at St Johns, he just a lowly box boy RAN along the track all the way from NKE signalbox to St Johns and was one of the first railmen on scene. He never talked about that night and it caused him much mental distress in later years.
Good morning from where I am here in Canada. I know more about London's train history than my own city's railway history, thanks to you.
Watching this I was suddenly struck that I had been idly wondering why there were two New Crosses - off and on - for more than 40 years.
And today I get an answer.
I can't quite describe it, but it feels like a tiny part of my life is satisfied. It's a very welcome feeling. I'll go to bed happy that one oflife's questions is now answered.
Thank you so much for making this video.
Excellent explanation of a very complicated railway system how about caterham and lbscr and ser
There’s also two Catfords and three West Hampsteads.
LOL LOL LOL
Now you've given me something else to wonder about 😀@@rahimjoseph211
I lived in Telegraph Hill near New Cross Gate and worked in the City for 20 years. Going north in the morning the choice was East London Line tube to Whitechapel and change onto the Metropolitan or Southern to London Bridge and walk over the bridge. Returning in the evening there was the added complexity of both trains and East London Line to New Cross as well as to New Cross Gate. The walk home from New Cross was longer but depending on the timetable it was sometimes quicker. The Overground, redevelopment of London Bridge and smartphone travel apps have somewhat simplified the calculations.
The trains from London Bridge to New Cross Gate are now only every 30 minutes even the rush hour (despite lobbying Southern not interested in restoring pre-covid levels). That means the average journey time is 27 minutes for 5 miles which is ridiculous. It's a choice however I have to make often having to travel to/from Chartered Accountants' Hall in Moorgate.
It's the Joolz Guide of London transport. An absolute treat each and every video.
Work in the Canary Wharf, travelling from New Barnet but frequent user of Rotherhithe station, closest station to Fischer FC's home stadium. Mon the Fisch!
Thank you, Jago! I do genuinely love your videos.
You never make a bad video.
Well done Jago, I love your videos. In about 2010 I managed to walk through the Wapping to Rotherhithe tunnel, along with a considerable number of others, on the open weekend before The London Overground took it over.
Nice video! It's a bit of an inconvenience when I miss the West Croydon/Crystal Palace trains and the next two are to New Cross and Clapham Junction!
As a resident in between both stations, i thank you for taking this often forgotten part of public transport map of the city. Lol
Thank you so much for explaining this Jago!
When we visited London last year we stayed in Brockley which of course is the next Overground station after New Cross Gate. One night we took what looked like a much less crowded train to New Cross and discovered why. I really wondered why both these stations with almost identical names were so close. Now I know.
Railway history in the UK where virtually all lines were built and acquired by private companies is so much more complicated than the ones in Sydney, which were all built by the Government of New South Wales. We really liked the Overground (it had AC) - in fact despite the noise, the heat and the overcrowding I thought the London tube generally was fantastic. You could get almost anywhere but no matter where you went in London, it always seemed to take an hour from Brockley. (Stations sometimes did have an odd way of suddenly being closed "for staff shortages" though and we would pass through them).
Thanks again!
"New Cross" was the destination showing on London's very last (first generation) tram No. 187 in July 1952...before, that is, the souvenir hunters nicked the destination blinds.
Nothing better than the complicated rail history of London to wake up with on a rainy Sunday morning!
The middle island platforms at New Cross Gate are semi-abandoned now. Fast trains on Brighton line no longer stop here and pass straight through. Not sure exactly when that changed, perhaps around 2019.
2018, when the new Thameslink timetable was implemented. But apart from a brief period when we blissfully enjoyed a direct service to East Croydon and Gatwick Airport for a few years until 2018, they've been largely disused during the whole time I've lived in the area (since 1989). At least they never removed them like they did with the fast platforms at New Cross.
I especially love your Tales from the Tube and Orations on the Overground, Jago! Very neatly packages content!
There are a few other instances like the New Cross/Gate one. The Lea Valley line springs to mind with its split at Hackney downs, and that odd meander it does through Walthamstow marshes before joining again at Tottenham Hale, then connecting _again_ at Cheshunt. This leads to several parallel stations in close proximity, such as Turkey Street and Enfield Lock, the aforementioned Tottenham Hale and Bruce Grove, and particularly Waltham Cross and Theobald's Grove, which are allegedly so close that you can see one from the other from the right angle (but necessarily a 90° right angle).
There's also that funny termination at Enfield Town which just screams that it could have connected at Lavender Hill, or ever perhaps have continued on to Forty Hall, Goff's Oak, Wormley and beyond. What happened there?
Someday there'll be a public transport focused PM. Someday...
Had the line continued it = would cut the town in half and reconnect with the Hertford loop line at Gordon Hill station ~ 🤨 very awkward, unless the railway is buried into a tunnel from the station and resurfaces in the holtwhites hill cricket ground; and the blocks of flats I can see from the back of our house wouldn’t exist/the estate being cut in half with railway infrastructure
Well, we got a public transport focused Deputy PM in Tony Blair's government with John Prescott ... I had high hopes but they were shattered.
You say that as if they didn't completely gut Genotin Road and redevelop Church Street and London Road back in the '00s. Actually I think they're nearly done with the further expansion they started a few years ago.
Plus the station has been there since the 1800s. They were already carving their way through North London to build it. But you're right. There could be a tunnel that extends the line further. I like that idea a lot! More trains in Enfield, please!
Jago exploring and discussing railway quirks. It's almost quirky.
I studied at Goldmiths as a mature student. When they moved all tuition online in late February or early March 2020, I moved from a shared house on Telegraph Hill back to my own flat in coastal Kent. Was pretty annoying that the 'slow' (i.e. older, non-HS1 line) train passes through - but does not stop at - New Cross, so I'd have to go to London Bridge, where inevitably I'd arrive just as the train to Orpington (I think, this is a few years ago) via New Cross was pulling away, so would have to wait about 20 minutes, then take 10 minutes going back down the same line to New Cross, then a frantically rushed 5 minute walk from New Cross station to Goldsmiths campus.
New Cross Gate because there was a turnpike gate there at one time - at the junction of New Cross Road and Queens Road about 250 yards west of the Brighton line station.
Many many years ago some friends lived in near New Cross.
It always puzzled me.
Thanks for resolving a mystery.
Cheers
Love these videos btw a bit of humor sometimes and very informative while being simple to understand
Nice one, I never knew that both stations were called New Cross for much of their life.
With the Overground takeover and expansion, New Cross does feel like the "unwanted" stub, when compared to the through services to Croydon and Crystal Palace on the New Cross Gate branch, and the services to Clapham Junction missing out New Cross altogether.
Interesting question whether Overground trains could be extended through to Lewisham which is a more useful interchange, or even down one of the lines towards Dartford. The connectivity at both ends of the Dalston Junction - New Cross service is poor especially as not many main line trains stop at New Cross.
@@iankemp1131 Problem is that the section from New Cross to Lewisham is already full to capacity.
Aw was so hoping a mention of the quite busy Deptford Wharf branch that ran off just past the junction between the two New Cross's, also the now long gone small interchange yard at New Cross Gate which was still in use in the 70's for Transfesa stuff mainly but stock storage also.
On a recent visit to the capital I stayed at Deptford bridge and took the 453 bus into town and noticed how close they were together… my apparently completely wrong theory was that New Cross didn’t have enough platforms to turn around the terminating services hence the existence of New Cross Gate. Thanks for putting me right before I told anyone else this (in the unlikely event that someone would listen)
Lovely stuff Jago. Always 6 to 8 minutes of joy.
I'm now going to have to spend the rest of the day listening to Carter USM. Which is always a good way to spend the day. 😁
Always fascinating to find out more things about stations we have passed through many a time without thinking about them as we go to and from our daily trek to work.
I won't say it kept me awake at night but the New Cross (Gate) situation has occasionally aroused my curiosity but not enough to go and find out. I never suspected a connection (other than the physical) with the Wapping Tunnel.
New Cross LU Depot was on the right of the line shortly after leaving the station. There was a short platform so that staff could ride the short distance there in the cab and the Motorman, later, Train Operator would halt next to it to it to let the staff member out. You can still see the site of it now.
Way back when, immediately after you left the main line station, on the right, there was an entirely separate station for what are now the Overground lines with an exit in what is now Goodwood Road.
Thanks for that, I will look it up, as I recently bought the London Railway atlas by Joe Brown of TFL.@@malcolmbacchus866
Looking at this place on a map, I think that there could be potential for an exchange station around Surrey Canal Road. Adding in side platforms should be no problem spacewise. And it should be possible to place those platforms without getting problems with important switches. The ~200m between the platforms should be perfectly doable, especially if there are roofed walkways added in. Such an exchange station would have the benefit of making it possible to use any East London Line train if you want to change onto the mainline. Additionally it would also be possible to change toward the line through Greenwich.
Sounds like a cool idea, though unlikely to happen: the space around Surrey Canal Road is largely occupied by industry and is gradually being redeveloped as dense 'mixed use'. There's actually space reserved for a station on Surrey Canal Road but only on the Overground branch to Clapham Junction. It's supposed to happen when the adjacent site around Millwall's New Den stadium gets redeveloped.
The excitement I felt at the fact you’re finally doing my station! I’ve always wondered why this was the case 😂
I’m sorry to say but the London and Greenwich railway first opened only as far as Deptford and reached bothGreenwich and London Bridge a bit later - hence the lovely pub quiz question “what is the oldest passenger railway station that is still used in London?” being “Deptford”! Deptford is also where the first ending shed was and it was accessed by a ramp at 90 degrees to the line, the arches of this ramp are still in position.
Also the Fantastic band Dire Straits began in Deptford where Mark Knopfler shared a flat with another band member, there is a Blue Plaque up, and Wrote a song " Telegraph Road " maybe after Telegraph Hill
It got to Greenwich pretty quickly though - a temporary station in 1838 and the present one in 1840. But thanks for the pub quiz answer, see if it ever comes in useful!
Ah - I thought that ramp was for the toffs to drive up in their coaches so they didn't have to climb the stairs.
Bit shallower than 90 deg I think! The ramp was restored a few years back and you can use it to access the up platform.
@@desdemoor at 90 degrees to the lines, ie “at a right angle” to the line, and NOT 90 degrees steep
As I recall it is about a 5 minute walk between the 2 New Cross stations.
With its musical history too, New Cross deserves two stations 😁
Thanks, Jago! I have always wondered why 2 stations so adjacent should be so similarly named, i never knew why..maybe some more stories like this?
Yes: Catford and Catford Bridge for example. They are also very close to each other.
@@John2Ward
Until the grouping London Victoria used to be two separate stations.
Perhaps Shepherd's Bush? Until fairly recently the name was on two stations which were actually a good walk apart.
Both New Cross and the Gate are useful, especially since the Overground appeared, but not as much as they might be. Not enough trains stop on either the "South Eastern" or "Southern" routes to provide useful onward connections from east London. I was surprised when coming down the East London to find that the fastest way to get to East Croydon for my connection southwards was to get off at Canada Water, take the Jubilee back to London Bridge and change on to a train which passed through New Cross Gate without stopping. Similarly if you're coming up the Overground from the stations like Norwood or Brockley you usually can't change at New Cross Gate to get to London Bridge, and have to go on to Canada Water instead.
They used to. Southern had a semi-fast, calling at Norwood Junction after New Cross Gate and a stopping service to Croydon. The first went when the new Thameslink services opened, then the stopper went at time of Covid and never came back.
Indeed. I've lived in the area pretty much equidistant from New Cross and New Cross Gate for many years and though the Overground has been a major improvement, traditional National Rail services at both stations have notably declined, particularly at New Cross Gate. A few years back it had a Southern service with 8 tph in both directions, including a half-hourly fast train to Gatwick Airport and Horsham that ran non-stop to East Croydon. That went with the completion of the Thameslink project and the suburban trains were never fully restored after Covid, with the last direct East Croydon services withdrawn in 2022. It now only gets 2 tph each way between London Bridge and London Victoria via Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction, a quirky and occasionally useful little line that Jago should probably do a video about if he hasn't already, but not one large numbers of passengers want to use. Thameslink trains have always run through fast though there are platforms for them to stop. The Bakerloo Line extension plans include an interchange at NXG so if/when that ever happens, maybe they'll stop the Thameslink. New Cross still has a decent level of service to London Bridge on Southeastern, 6 tph, but they all continue to Cannon Street: the direct connection to Charing Cross was another Thameslink casualty. In the other direction they continue to various suburban southeast London destinations. Fast trains run through -- the platforms on the fast lines were removed many years ago -- and if you want to continue reach anywhere more far-flung in Kent or East Sussex it's almost always quicker to go to London Bridge and back out again.
@@desdemoor @ianjemma Thank you both for your very helpful replies. So the obvious implication would be to restore the stops on the Thameslink service. It's ironic as it's a through service from Peterborough to Horsham with 23 intermediate stops and taking nearly 3 hours. But there might be a time constraint on the local London section.
A generic point is "inner London suburb hubs" (a few miles out of the termini) and their National Rail service. For example, Finsbury Park and Stratford are very effective with all outer-suburban trains stopping. Clapham Junction is excellent for the Southern but a bit patchy for SWR especially in peak hours. Lewisham is better than New Cross, and New Cross Gate has seriously declined as noted above. West Hampstead and Willesden are less useful than they might be due to loss of platforms on through lines. All these locations offer possibilities to get from longer-distance destinations to London suburbs without going into the termini. At one stage I was considering working at Brentford and it was remarkably difficult to get there from reasonably affordable areas in Hampshire.
@@iankemp1131 Not sure what the issue is, it might be station capacity too, they're afraid of increased footfall as even with the Overground improvements NXG still has relatively restricted circulating areas (though nowhere near as awful as Norwood Junction with its narrow subways and steep steps and no lifts, where you now need to change if heading for East Croydon and points south). It's not just the Horsham service, all Thameslink trains on the Brighton line pass through the fast platforms without stopping.
Back in the day, if you went to Shoreditch end of platform you could see the Liverpool St trains running in and out as BR maintained the old portal albeit track cut right up at the wall with a barricade and heavy buffer as last thing BR wanted was a LT train overshooting and wrecking into Liverpool St trains. The first line leftwards on Liverpool St was back in the day very busy, Bishopsgate Goods Station used it to transfer freight for the south east, running a train into platform then SR would with a pilot of course run backside in and hook up and off it would go to Hither Green or wherever for onwards movement coming off at New Cross. This arrangement was complex and it pretty much stopped the platform for being used for passengers and Liverpool St's demand was going through the roof for passenger revenue so they cut the connection and routed the freights round via the North London lines to come out at Kensington for interchange there.
This is my old neighbourhood! Ooh I can't wait to find out why it's so weird!
Are there any plans to extend southward from New Cross station? It would seem like a perfect way to extend to Lewisham then more southward paralleling the Bromley Road route. OR eastward for that matter towards Blackfen & Bexley? Overground routes have to be less expensive to construct than underground routes. It isn't the similar name or the closeness of it's location, but that it is both of those things AND the end of the line. If it route extended past that point it might make more sense.
As Jago suggests in his video, the lines used to connect at New Cross, with SER trains via the East London Railway continuing to Lewisham and beyond, but the London Overground platform (D) is now a bay with a buffer stop and the 1970s station buildings blocking the way beyond (originally the buildings were on the bridge carrying New Cross Road over the railway). When the Overground was planned, they did consider reconnecting it and continuing to Lewisham, which is also a DLR station, but the idea was abandoned partly due to cost and partly I believe because of capacity issues and conflicting movements on the lines to/from London Bridge.
There have been other proposals: the Jubilee Line, when it was still known as the Fleet Line, was originally planned to serve underground platforms at New Cross, before emerging alongside what were then the BR SR tracks into Lewisham. They even dug a test tunnel at New Cross which still exists though is sealed off -- I'm sure you'll find videos on UA-cam about it. There's also long been talk of an extended Bakerloo Line reaching New Cross before taking over the Hayes line currently operated by Southeastern. I believe the latest Bakerloo Line extenstion plans are to serve New Cross Gate instead and continue underground to terminate at Lewisham, with the Hayes line option still possible for the future.
The new cross station used to come in handy for graffiti. We would climb the lamp post next to the underpass where the train would stop, and paint the train as the driver walked from one end to the other. Only got 5 minutes at a time but was much less hassle than breaking into the depot, which is another story. That lamp post would wobble from being climbed up so much.
I expected "you are a gate to my New Cross"
3:35 It's surprising that Gilbert & Sullivan didn't write an operetta about the goings on with London's competing railway companies. There was plenty of material there to use.
"Thespis" with lyrics by W S Gilbert is probably about as close as it gets, with a song beginning:
"I once knew a chap who discharged a function
On the North East South West Diddlesex Junction."
Well. I wanted to go to a gig in New Cross but unfortunately the only ticket available was for New Cross Gate. Dunno why that's a complaint because it's only down the road and it gave me the chance to get some fast food on the way.
British Rail at its best. I managed to see the whole gig, catch the last train from NCG and walked through my door in Eastbourne at just 1.15 am.
From Eastbourne you couldn't easily* get to New Cross without going through New Cross Gate and doubling back at London Bridge, which would take much longer than walking between the two and cost more. So the ticket you were sold was the correct one.
(*if you really insisted, you could have gone via Hastings and Orpington, but why would you do that?)
These always seemed odd to me on tube maps in the 60s/70s. "Why?" I asked myself ...or perhaps inverted Y. Now it all becomes clear ....ish. I bet if somebody proposed closing "New Cross" there would be a slew of complaints. On the other hand, maybe extending it somewhere like has happened at New Cross Gate, might be possible.
Cheers Jago, you are the gate to my new cross.
FINALLY!!! Thank you! I've always wanted something about this situation.
I was thinking along the right lines with the 'You are the _____ to my _____' line this time - I wondered if it would be something to do with the tunnel!
Until the formation of the London County Council in 1889, the two New Cross stations were in different counties - New Cross Gate in Surrey and New Cross in Kent - the only Underground station in that county.
The use of platform letters at New Cross, as at Waterloo East, is to assist the Fire Brigade, so that they go to the right platform at the right station should the need arise. Kings Cross Thameslink, when it was open, also used letters.
As do the Elizabeth Line platforms at the Underground core stations.
Also Waterloo East. Aren’t the new Thameslink platforms at St. Pancras also lettered.
Thinking of platforms 9 3/4 at King’s Cross, has there ever been a real platform anywhere that actually had a fractional number?
@@srfurley Yes Thameslink platforms at London St Pancras International are A (southbound) and B.
I have the feeling that Jago simply likes to read out as many names of train companies in London as he possibly can. Lucky for him, these companies had the foresight that in 2024 someone would have a need for them teaming up in various constellations. 😂
I don't know if it was intended but "you are the disused tunnel to my railrway company" is quite the innuendo XP
Thanks for another interesting and informative exposition Jago. I've often wondered why the New Cross Gate service was changed from Underground to Overground... ah well, perhaps some other time :)
The ealry development of the railways were an aboslute mess of competing companies and I wonder if the status by the 1960's was based on this uncontrollled mess and so the kick back from Dr Richard Beeching should have been expected! This story highlights one of the issues - too many competing companies - thanks for the story JH and keep up delivering these 👍😁
A bigger, and more pertinent, question than naming is why New Cross Gate has a central platform which is almost never used. Despite extensive reconstruction works, nothing has been done to take the opportunities for semi-fast trains to stop there, providing links eg to Gatwick and Brighton - and scope for passengers from these destinations to interchange on to the Overground.
Great video and very good to find out about the New Cross oddity.
I’ve always wondered why the heck there were two new crosses. Great video
🎶THE COMFORT AND THE JOY OF FEELING LOST. 🎶
What a Wapping great coincidence that the tunnel was just the right size and loading gauge for twin tracks. I had been thinking exactly that when you said that very point. Well actually, I had been wondering just what were the thought processes to its planned dimensions as Brunels old boy, Marc Brunel, started it and presumably didn't have any truck with this 7 foot and a 1/4" malarchy that his errant offspring would eventually be playing around with: which leaves the finer points of the dimensions these rival companies used in the first place and any tweaking needed to get them to fit in the tunnels.
New Cross and New Cross Gate have always been on my mind. They stood there alone on the map, propping up everything North of the Thames. They always looked rather lonely and bereft when Carter USM came along in the nick of time and nabbed New Cross for their single The Only Living Boy in New Cross. I saw them live a few times in he 90's and had their badge on my guitar case. Worth a google if you like Indie punk (f*k yeah! Jump and and down, crowdsurf. G.O.D. Grow Old Disgracefully. Embarrass the kids, do unspeakable things with your false teeth- especially when you take them out. Ahem. Sorry. It's Sunday, it's raining and there's not much doin except to drink coffee and watch youtube pondering construction technique and lost youth).
the east london line is in interesting part of london’s railway history and of course terriers ❤ barking at the new Cross gate nice video as always
Great video Jago
Well the remedy for a disused tunnel is normally finding the right club to go to 😮
That was excellent A weird historical quirk. I thought it was some well considered and sensible planning. Hahahaha
Thanks for explaining it sir!
I encountered these stations for the first time two years ago getting to the start line of the London Marathon from Hoxton. A year ago, again getting to the start line of the London Marathon, I went a different way from Hoxton to reduce the number of changes from the previous journey!
TfL should consider an extension on the New Cross leg, maybe down to Grove Park or even Bromley North. southeastern rail leaves a lot to be desired, not to mention paying a premium fare for worse service.
5:07 The only living boy in this video!
I apologise, now and retrospectively, for failing to commit to memory, but a small percentage of the information that you present. Rather, I revel in the ‘Brownian Motion’ which is the never ending growth and development, of the London Underground. Tis a wonderful thing. Thankyou.
If we ever get a Bakerloo line extension, perhaps it could stop at both New Cross and New Cross gate.
Current plans are for a stop at New Cross Gate, though New Cross was talked about in the past.
Brilliant video thank you. In the early 90s I travelled to school from Rotherhithe via New Cross on the ELL to Blackheath on the North Kent (Southeastern post 1994) BR line. Occasionally bus to London Bridge and train back out. The ELL using old Metropolitan line stock was brilliant back then, a real time capsule to older underground days. Of course the Overground is far better and more convenient but lacks the character
Weird quirks + bizarre, unexpected functionality = London rail system.
There were two pubs with New Cross in the name opposite eachother. As far as I remember, the New Cross House had the lunchtime strippers and the New Cross Inn didn't.
Both are still there. New Cross House is more of a sit down pub while New Cross inn is a music venue
@@turnonmyaxel ah, it was the left side one as you head for Lewisham (? long long time) that was a lunchtime destination.
😊 I seem to recall the one on the left hand side - heading toward New Cross station - was an "Irish Pub" ('frequented' by my Mum & stepdad ...with me,as a youngster, either left outside in the car with a bottle of lemonade, an 'arrowroot' biscuit, & a packet of "Smith's salt 'n' shake crisps" & sometimes, a nice big pickled egg!! 😊 ...or upstairs in the Pub's non-drinking rooms!!) 😮😊🇮🇪🧡🏴🖖
When I lived there one of these two were "Irish" pubs and you could buy the United Irishman there. I was born in 1939 (117 Pepys Rd). Moved north in the 60s. New Cross Gate station was still a terminus then.
😊 I've often been _through_ New Cross station (enroute between Brockkey _to_/_from_ London Bridge) but I've only been _to_/from_ New Cross Gate station _once_, (to travel _to_/_from_ an East London station called Clapton!)
These are routes /stations well-known to me, (by name, at least), simply because I used to live _in_ Brockley - with my Mum - and worked (for about three months), at 'The Borough' (until one rather busy morning enroute to work, I _fell_off_ a train (& landed on my right knee, which eventually developed arthritis & has troubled me ever since 😢!!) as it entered London Bridge station, & was "rescued" by a non-related couple of commuters who took me to Guys' Hospital...
Soon this resulted in me choosing to leave _that_ job, and travel _that_ route no more!! "End of" my New Cross station (& brief New Cross Gate station) stories!🚝🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃... 🤔😶😏🧡🏴🖖
Another point is, as built both stations had grade separated junctions, allowing through running of trains on both SE and LBSC lines. Implying they both had serious plans for through trains from other parts of their network.
I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) there was through-running for quite a while.
@@surreygoldprospector576 There was indeed, though much more of freight trains than passenger. Both the East London line and the Snow Hill tunnel (now Thameslink) were very useful for this in the 19th and early 20th century.
I had a feeling that this was to do with rival Trainlines. And, you confirmed it, Jago!
Hurray for Sunday morning Jago videos!
There's a similar situation in Glasgow with Pollockshields East, Pollockshields West, Pollockshaws East and Pollockshaws West all situated within a short distance of each other
There is a 3 station section of line in parallel in West Yorkshire - both the Lancashire and Yorkshire and Great Northern served Cleckheaton, Liversedge and Heckmondwike. Neither line survived Beeching :(
New Cross / New Cross Gate could have had a life changing outcome. True Story: When my Mum and Dad had just started courting many many years ago they had arranged to meet at New Cross....or had they??? Mum went to New Cross and Dad to New Cross Gate. They eventually met up, with each of them teasing the other that they had gone to the wrong station. I am here today to tell the tale, but perhaps I almost wasn't😁😁. I love the videos, they are really interesting and informative.
Love you describing infrastructure projects as "flops".... jago hazzard is for the girlies!!!
New Cross Gate/New Cross Gate Gate
@@memofromessex You seem to be lacking power. I hope you're not ill.
My assumption had been that the overground don't want to run all of their trains further south and New Cross, having a terminating platform, was just an easier place to turn trains around than New Cross Gate.
I think it's more that the New Cross service was already extant and provided some useful connections on to the South Eastern lines. So they wouldn't want to go through the rigmarole of trying to close it, especially with all the publicity (rightly) about what an upgrade the new Overground service was.
i would love to see a video on the names on the overground
"New Cross, New Cross. So good they named it twice......".
"No. Hold on a minute..." lol.
Excellent as ever, Jago sir.
Ps. Totally unrelated, but there's a parody of the song,
" New York state of mind,".praising Newport in South Wales.
It's definitely worth a look.
Hilarious.
Fascinating! Always wondered about those stations and what a great story!
The other mystery is where was the “old” cross?
The 'Old Cross' was the original Cross Inn at the road junction. When a second inn was added, it was called the New Cross Inn and ultimately the area was named after that.
Kings Cross and St Pancras next? They share an underground station and non advance tickets are also valid to either station. Euston and Euston Square might also be a contender. Even London Victoria and Manchester Victoria could work.
This is one of those situations where the Beck map shows its flaw, especially south of the river. The relative invisibility of National Rail lines makes this fork look as pointless as the old East London line did in the 70s. Not knowing that part of town, I always looked at this corner of map with bemusement. But it makes complete sense once you know about the non TfL lines.
Filed under "Things I Didn't Know That I Needed To Know, But Now Am Glad I Know Them".
The Brunel tunnels which the Overground uses must be the most ornate railway tunnels in the world. With the addition of a few crystal chandeliers, one would be rolling through a concert hall.
While waiting for that to happen, you'll have time to go to Monaco-Monte Carlo and look at the underground main line station there.
With New Cross and New Cross Gate stations being so ever close to each other. There are proposals for a new interchangeable station to be built as part of the Bakerloo Line extension from Elephant and Castle to Bromley North and Hayes.
Plus I do also think there should be a a new London Overground station at New Bermondsey on Surrey Canal Road to be built and to be adjacent to Millwall FC The Den Stadium. As there were plans for a new station to be built close to the football ground.
The new station was going to be on what is now the Sainsburys store, but the Bakerloo ain't going to be extended in my lifetime and I think it has been permanently shelved.
True. 👍
On my railway, the New Cross branch extends to Orpington.
Thanks Jago, I'd always wondered about these two stations.
Well actually "it's Good Morning" as I sit here in Montreal, Canada @ 11:18 AM Sunday Morning drinking my coffee as I watch this...
...so maybe it'll be Good Afternoon or Evening when you get around to reading this comment :-0
or
maybe it's "Good Morning" to you too ;-)
Before the ELL became part of the Overground, were there any proposals (be it regular, express mainline or initally goods dedicated routes) to link it with up with the Lea Valley Line at about Bethnal Green Junction / Cambridge Heath by way of a sharp right after Whitechapel (akin to Met separating from Circle/H&C at Baker Street) or an alternate route remaining parallel to Cavell then Cambridge Heath Road before resurfacing to link with Lea Valley after Bethnal Green Junction?
I changed train at New Cross last night
Jago is the only living boy in New Cross.
I think Jago would applaud the weirdness of your comment.
@@Ed-kv2vb it appears you are correct...
@@Ed-kv2vb😮 Hardly "weird" per se...?! It's the play on words of the Simon & Garfunkel song, 🇺🇸🎵"The Only Living Boy In New York" 🇺🇸🎵🤔🧡🏴😊🖖
@@brigidsingleton1596 Carter USM
That's an interesting 1830s print showing a train with carriages, literally made out of old carriages, or rather old stage coaches, thus explaining the term train carriages.
Another example would be having to leave West Hampstead on the Tube/ Overground to walk to West Hampstead on Thameslink or vice versa.
I wonder how much hatred spilled over when London Transport and British Rail were formed, as in how much money had to be used to pay people off.
Presumably New Cross Gate was a defunct city gate originally, but was there a market or religious marker cross involved?
The Gate referred to a toll gate.
I think that the East Line line was the most under appreciated tube line on the underground system
I found it fascinating although it was seemingly uncared for by LT. It has been said that it ran to places nobody wanted to go.
It was also a way to get across the Thames @@adaptandsucceed6875
I always wonder why a handful of the 378s got refurbished and their livery changed with the black stripe around the windows extending to the roof. Assume it was to make them look more like the 710s, but they look far worse in my opinion. The cab looks so messy. And would far prefer more consistency across the TfL services' liveries. Just niggles me.
good evening, in my case.
if only Marc Isambard Brunel or his son could have known that their tunnel
would be used to run trains under the river...
or their investors for that matter.
It’s good morning for us here in NZ