R2D2 applied for a job as a tube driver but he couldn't see out of the window. Rumour has it he now makes a living hoovering the carriages along with his friend Henry.
When i worked for London Underground in the 90s i was told that right around opening the Vic, initially they only had drivers in case something went wrong as they thought they'd go fully automatic in due course, so all the driver really did was open the doors at each station. But at one station, the doors failed to close again, so the driver got out to investigate. Only, the doors then shut! And because the doors were all now closed, the train took off down the track - without the driver! So he had to run out to the street, flag down a cab, and try and work out where the train would have got to so he could catch it and get back on. Sure enough he found it, full of angry passengers, the train had still stopped at each station but the doors didn't open, so they were trapped until he rescued it 😅
I'm not even really a train person but have followed you for the history and knowledge of London and surrounds, better than some dedicate history buffs
In the US there has been an automated train service at West Virginia University since the 70’s. It only has 3-4 stops. It was quite a folly when it opened as it used these new fangled computer things.
It's on a completely isolated track. We used to have a driverless Maglev in Birmingham. It was removed as it was unreliable. Fun to ride for 3 quarters of a mile.
@@hairyairey A train is defined as ''a connected line of railroad cars with or without a locomotive'' according to many dictionaries and Wikipedia. The Morganstown PRT does not meet this as one vehicle is a single rigid unit It would be better classified as an automated people mover
Frank Sprague,who invented the Multiple Unit concept,also worked on elevators,and invented the multi- car shaft principle! So a lot of that unmanned elevator technology got carried over to the subway usage! A bit complicated,but its some heavy duty engineering that people take for granted! Thank you,Jago,as usual,your side excursions,wind up being fascinating! Thank you 😇 😊!!
@@InventorZahran Actually there was an advertisement from Baltimore,that said that out loud! See Baltimore Streetcar Museum for details! Thank you 😇 😊!
Brixton platforms were redecorated around 2007, grey tiles (except on the far wall) were replaced by cream and green ones, and illuminated glass signs were removed (only Pimlico and Hatton Cross still have them, plus a swjtched off one at Moorgate ). The green and orange "motifs" depicting a "ton of bricks" have been retained though. Brixton also now has the largest Underground "roundel" on the system, above the entrance, surpassing Arsenal's by some margin.
Yep! Prague is the latest Underground railway to automate whilst the two best metros in the world have always been automatic i.e. the VAL metro in Lille and the Skytrain metro in Vancouver.
I remember being on the southbound platform at Kings Cross some time in the early 2000s. A Victoria line train came belting into the station... and carried on belting through! Cue screaming of brakes and the train came to a halt with just the last carriage in the station. The front one must have been pretty much in Euston... I guess the train operator had a bit of a shock!
The Stockholm underground had a test train for ATO in the 60s I believe. And since 2000 the green line have been capable of ATO. The drivers can choose to drive or monitor.
Thank you, most interesting and informative. It always used to please me when waiting for a train into the city at Woodford to see the little ATO Hainault shuttle trundling in with it’s 1960 driving cars sandwiching the ancient trailers in between . . .
Thank you Jago for your “Driverless” offering, I am minded of the notifications that I have experienced and thinking of trains abruptly stopping because of a failure to update to the latest operating system. In 1984, I and numerous work colleagues visited London UndergrounD on a works outing which included “signalling.” At Acton Town the old relay system was in use, then a trip to the new Heathrow Terminal 4, where a desktop PC (of similar type in use where I worked) was in control. I remember the number of times that I was called to deal with PCs (desktop computers) where I worked that had failed. But, the walls were lined with the old relays - very reassuring. Here is a very belated massive thank you to London Transport Underground for a very special day - thank you LT, I’ll never forget your hospitality to me and my work colleagues on that day. Also a special Remembrance Day thought to the LT staff of Elmers End (ED) bus garage that were killed by a direct hit by a V1 doodlebug on the garage.
When I read the title "Robot drives train" I imagined Robbie from Fireball XL5 in the driver's seat going "On our way 'ome, On our way 'ome" in his metalic voice!! 😄 I'm just glad I didn't use the Victoria line until it got to Brixton and the system was well tested!!!!
I was lucky enough to get a cab ride on the Woodford-Hainault line during those early trials and pushed the 2 buttons to start the train. It all worked perfectly with no overruns or any other problems. I may be a bit of a Luddite, however, as I still like the thought of people driving trains, rather than automation.
@@kiwitrainguyHopefully, if you get stuck in a lift, there is an emergency call button and intercom. On trains without staff on board, hundreds of people can be stuck in a coach where the air con has failed, no windows can be opened and no toilets (I know lifts don't have toilets) and no means of communication. This has occurred recently when the overhead power lines failed on the railway from Paddington, London. Plus- I like driving trains 😀
That John Connor quip has me thinking the train will announce in a German accent: "Ride with me if you want to commute." I'm waiting for my home system (WMATA in DC) to return to full ATO; they stopped in 2009 (!) due to a catastrophic collision and have only slowly been re-introducing it. But when it works, it works! (The Victoria Line is a beast and I loved getting to ride it in past trips.)
I recall as a lad aged about 12 chatting to a driver on the Hainault loop when ATO was being trialled. He was very enthusiastic about it, and invited me into the cab for a ride around the loop to see how it worked. I remember thinking I was seeing the future...
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Barcelona because in 1959 they opened a new line with automatic train operation based on photocells and lights between the rails and it was developed in house! But it lasted until the 70s because they merged with another line. But anyways the last 25 years aprox the modern ATP-ATO came again.
Though, the DLR is GoA3 : driverless but not unattended, an agent must be on board for the doors, etc. Paris metro lines M14, M1 & M14, plus all 4 of the upcoming Grand Paris Express lines are fully driverless and unattended (GoA4), while almost all other historical lines have drivers with automated train operations (GoA2) since 1967 on, like RER central sections (akin to Elizabeth line central section operations). Lines M1 & M4 are more than a century old and were recently converted. Other significant GoA4 / UTO (Unattended Train Operation) metro lines include the new Sydney Metro North West line, Barcelona L9/L10, Lausanne M2, Sao Paulo Metro lines 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 15, Vancouver Skytrain, Montreal REM, Santiago Metro lines 3 and 6, Tokyo's Yurikamome line (among others), Copenhagen Metro / City Ringen, Doha Metro, several Singapore MRT and all LRT lines, Istanbul Metro lines M5 & M8, Torino Metro M1, Milano Metro lines 4 & 5, several other French cities' entire networks or lines like Lille, Rennes, Lyon, Toulouse and soon Marseille, Nuremberg U-Bahn lines U2 & U3, Roma Metro line C, and several others. Plus of course dozens of airport people mover systems. One of the main advantages of full unattended train operations is the very high frequency allowed by such automation : down to 60 seconds on VAL systems like in Lille Rennes or Toulouse, and 80 seconds (for now) on Paris metro. It also offers an immediate response capacity, allowing for many trains to be injected on the line at the last minute by a simple command. Without any managerial headaches about schedules, shifts, holidays etc. When Beyoncé's concert in Paris la Défense Arena took longer than planned, line M1 dispatchers didn't have to worry about driver shifts or anything else. They were in communication with the arena which told them that about 40+ thousand people were going to head their way in 10 minutes. Dispatchers only had to activate the super peak scenario and all concert goers enjoyed a super frequent noria of trains. Fully automated lines with unattended operations are fantastic to handle crowds and rapidly, if not instantly, increase the capacity, or even the operating hours. You can let the system work all night long on event nights with very minimal staffing. You no longer need to argue with thousands of drivers about who's gonna work on NYE, for example. Fully automated lines with unattended operations should be the default standard for all new lines anywhere. And the upgrade goal for all major renovations. That's the case in France anyway, no new driver operated metro lines, only automated / unattended ones and conversion of previously driver operated ones to fully unattended ones. As a public transit user, I find it to be nearly a night and day difference. The reliability of these lines is much higher than any manned line.
and the original Victoria line automatic system (once it worked !) would make the train brake at EXACTLY the same spot when entering a station . Hence the stress on the rails was EXACTLY at the same point . So more rail failures ! Human drivers, well they're a bit more random on the braking point they chose, so even out the rail wear a bit more. I do think they solved this problem eventually on the automated system, and well newer digital computer controlled systems, I'm guessing they must sort of do something like this. On the subject of the DLR , well I'd argue the "Train Captains" are still really drivers. They're about as much of a driver as the other lines where the driver only has to take over in emergencies. There in lies the issue with fully automated trains. Even automated trains still really need a railway employee on a train for emergencies. De-training passengers on a train stuck in a tunnel is the major issue . So they still need a human, that is this side of the full Arnold , hopefully "Non Terminating" type, of robots becoming reality saying "I vont you to get off ze train !". Thinking about that, like dogs often get the name "rover" and cats "tiddles" , when we have house hold robots, will most of them get called "Arnold" ? 😀 Yes, I worked on the Signal and Lighting Electrical division of LUL from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s . First as an apprentice electrician, then building electrician - not signalling ! and eventually ended up just pushing a pen around on bits of paper ! and you reminded me of Dell . He was talked about in "rarified tones" by the Signalling lot !
Honest... I was watching the pretty tube scenes and letting myself be gently lulled by Jago's dulcet tones without really paying attention, and then I heard that unforgettable phrase, "leaves on the tracks" and I was jolted to attention and instantly transported from 21st Century Australia back to late the 20th Century English South East, where these words were normally preceded by something along the lines of, "British Rail regret to announce the delay/cancellation of... due to...". I could feel the cold, wind, and damp frustration like it was yesterday.
Living in Vancouver these days, our light rail - the Skytrain - is completely driverless. Except when there's snow or some other reason that the automated systems struggle. Then humans descend to drivers' chairs at the front of the carriages. It's truly the best of both worlds, and I do wish more cities would follow suit.
The biggest problem really is that retrofitting anything is a lot more difficult than doing it from the outset. So, to do it on the Victoria Line made sense, but retrofitting it to a line that was built when practical electricity hadn't been invented yet, that's a bit more difficult. This is why the DLR could be made driverless from the start: it was a brand new system. And it doesn't go very fast, so it's easier to halt at the right place. If you look at Paris, they made the brand new Line 14 driverless. But, because technology hadn't advanced enough in the late 1980s/early 1990s, these trains run on rubber tyres, because they reckoned that they couldn't line up the trains properly with the platform doors. Now, with the Grand Paris Express project, the trains will have proper steel wheels. Therefore, the London Underground will eventually become driverless. If nothing else, technology progresses all the time, and problems that were insurmountable before become almost trivial. But, because this system was started in the 1860s, and because there are some other problems to solve first, it will probably be one of the last systems to become driverless.
"Leaves and trains are natural enemies! Just like leaves and trams! Like leaves and monorails! Like leaves and other leaves! DAMNED LEAVES! YOU RUINED WALTHAM FOREST!" "You leaves sure are a contencious bunch" "THATS IT! YOU'VE JUST MADE AN ENEMY FOR LIFE!"
I once read an article from 1982 when the Helsinki metro opened it said that metro would be automatic by 1985. They were also planning do in it around 2014 and lates plans were from 2019...
The first automatic train braking was in Victorian times. A radio signal was transmitted through the running rails, which has recently been readopted as an upgrade to DLR's SELTRAC.
That's very interesting. The other day I read an article about the multiple automation attempts on the metro in Hamburg, Germany. In the 60s the idea was also to cut labour costs and convert the metro to driverless but the system was not approved by the authorities. Then, in the 80s they tried again but now the passengers weren't ready for it. At that time the guards and station personnell were reduced and finally omitted and the passenger numbers were at an all time low. So it could become quite deserted and eary on the trains. Driverless "ghost trains" didn't really help to make people feel more comfortable. Now, in the 2020s the next attempt is taken to automate existing line and a fully driverless line is under construction. Let's see how it goes ^^
When I was a teenager a Victoria line driver let me press both start buttons together to start the train after he closed the doors and closed the cab window. Good old days.
They have that same automatic control system installed in the new Metro Tunnel in Melbourne Australia so the trains will only operate automatically with drivers in the Metro Tunnel section of the line and another reason for it is so the trains always perfectly align themselves with the platform screen doors in the new Metro Tunnel underground stations.
The Expo Express (basically a standard gauge railway with subway carriages) at the 1967 World's Fair in Montreal was entirely automated. However the city's transit agency was tapped to provide bodies tonoccupy the drivers' seats in each rake to quell visitors' fears...
Westinghouse Signalling would also use that automation system on the first two Singapore Metro lines that opened in the late 1980s which also was seemingly the first system to feature platform screen doors.
Not really. Guards were progressively removed from the system from the mid 80s onwards with drivers then taking on door operation duties ( but not platform observance on departure). So in effect the operators job is having the driving function removed apart from any booked manual moves ( that used to be a feature of the Victoria line but may not now be the case) and manual driving in event of a failure of the auto driving control systems.
The DLR isn't driverless ... just the driver doesn't usually drive the train ... ...and they are so closely monitored from a control room, they effectively have two drivers, one is on the train but not driving, one is not even on the train ... A truly driverless train is unlikely - too many unanticipated things can go wrong that need human input ...
actually, there are THREE levels of automation. Automatic operation (GoA2 - Grade of Automation ,London Underground), Driverless operation (Goa3, DLR), and Unattended operation (GoA4, Luton DART or Paris metro line 1). GoA4 is my favorite, and with new CCTV advancements a conductor doesn't need to be on board the train to keep an eye on things...
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As I remember it, the Victoria Line ATO tended to brake as late and as hard as was practical. But on particularly damp or cold days, the driver would have to blip the emergency brake to prevent overruns.
when you say these trains generally work on the whole or hole,. which hole? black hole? or the great blue hole? is this hole related to the holes that filled the albert hall?
You can't really call the DLR a fully automated system anymore. It's seems like it's now standard practice for a member of staff on the train to close the doors and an increasing number seem to operate the train from the front. There was a time when they were completely driverless and needed no human intervention at all!
Good Evening Drago. Late with this comment I know (should have been the E&C Episode, but I didn't have the book then), but I came across a story in my W. B. Herbert book called "The Footplate Ghost". It is a fascinating story, but is very sparse on locations due, as the author states, to the interviewee being unwilling to provide too much information. Given your excellent research and deduction powers, I think it would be a great story to look into. While not a true "Tube Story", all right not a tube story at all...just a railway story, I can think of no other who could do it justice. I'd be more than happy to send the details over. And please keep up the great work! Although subscribed to a number of channels, yours is the only I ever comment on as the quality is truly excellent.
Trying to not fall asleep, I got the impression the there trains are automated but there are still drivers on them. Is this correct? If so, where have you guys been. The BART in San Francisco has been driverless since it opened in the mid 1960s. The Skytrain in Vancouver. British Columbia has been driverless from the start in the mid 1980s. Plus most of the Vancouver system operates using linear induction motors.
Quite funny this comes out the day before the Jubilee District, Circle, H and C and Metropolitan line are all closed for a signal upgrade on Saturday 11th November. Robots still need signals. 😃
It was always fascinating watching the drivers on the old Central Line trains when they drove the train from the carriage, only separated from the passengers by a small bar. All they seemed to do was press a few buttons.
I might be mistaken, but I believe that the BART line in the San Francisco Bay area was designed by Westinghouse and has been fully automated from the beginning. I live 3,000 miles east of it, so I could be mistaken.
@@brigidsingleton1596The US and British companies were completely separate. The UK company was The Westinghouse Brake and Signal Company, a vast operation which made a huge range of railway equipment.
@@brigidsingleton1596 They made everything from toasters, light bulbs, washing machines, to railroad equipment. They were second in size only to GE. And NO, you're not an idiot. Just not informed.
Another proof of the inherent difficulties of implementing technical improvements or radical evolutions to the London underground system due to its absolute can of worms history.leading to a complicated jungle of network with numerous branching lines, duplicated (or more.. cf. The n-Acton story) stations, shared tracks, and mismatched systems (train or tube loading gauge, 3 rail, 4 rail or overhead feed, curve radius, and so on. Most other metro/underground/subways networks never had those impossible hurdles to deal with and the results are visible: Paris network: automated trains introduced in 71. All lines automated five years later. Driverless trains: introduced on line 14 in 1998. Lines 1 and 4 driverless now. Line 11 in works. And new lines - 14 to 18 (first parts opening first quarter of 24). Driverless trains can be used on automatic mode if need be and wide interoperability between most of the rolling stock (just two categories: metal wheels or tyre ones (lines 1, 4, 6, 11, 14). Same with most European networks with historically rarely more than 2 competing private companies and generally just one (municipal, almost never privately owned).
"Westinghouse, manufacturers of signalling equipment among other things" Good thing they didn't propose powering an automated tube train with one of their nuclear reactors or we'd probably have a crazed robot nuclear train rushing around the circle line today....
"few if any trees" is a classic excellent Jago line!
I've noticed at times a lot of leaves blow in at the end of the Rotherhithe (road) tunnel.
When the first automatic ticket barriers were introduced in the early 60s they were referred to as "robot ticket inspectors".
Shamelessly stolen, *ahem* adapted, from Futurama:
Robo Inspector on the tube!
Checking tickets! Never rude!
Robo 'pector.
Just like how any robotics are referred to as "AI".
R2D2 applied for a job as a tube driver but he couldn't see out of the window. Rumour has it he now makes a living hoovering the carriages along with his friend Henry.
R2D2 travelling on the Tube eh? Return Journey of the Jedi
@@emjackson2289oy-ster what you did there…
LOL
LUL
Hes gone right downhill since the days of Ted Rogers, 3-2-1 I'll get my coat
This train is being operated by a robot, please remember when alighting the service to take your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle.
😂
You forgot to say please...
stabs speaker with cigar 🤣
When i worked for London Underground in the 90s i was told that right around opening the Vic, initially they only had drivers in case something went wrong as they thought they'd go fully automatic in due course, so all the driver really did was open the doors at each station. But at one station, the doors failed to close again, so the driver got out to investigate. Only, the doors then shut! And because the doors were all now closed, the train took off down the track - without the driver! So he had to run out to the street, flag down a cab, and try and work out where the train would have got to so he could catch it and get back on. Sure enough he found it, full of angry passengers, the train had still stopped at each station but the doors didn't open, so they were trapped until he rescued it 😅
Now that is an amazing story ! 👍
This is crazy, but the exact same situation has happened in Moscow in the 80s during ATO tests!
0:29 The whistle!! Honestly that's such an adorable feature of the trains, I'm so happy they have them lol.
Great video!
The sometimes-drivers on the DLR have the rather nautical job title of "Train Captain", which makes me want to salute them. Bank ahoy!
Lol
They now seem to be referred to as ‘Passenger Service Agents’ which almost makes them sound like some kind of spies 😂
Even most maritime companies refer to the captain as the "master" now.
I don't exactly know why I think that, but the fact that these these driverless trains have "train captains" is something I see as very British.
Almost need nautical costumes and a rank list. Would be fun to get train admirals and the first DLR Lord
I'm not even really a train person but have followed you for the history and knowledge of London and surrounds, better than some dedicate history buffs
Sometimes he sneaks in an entirely non-train video. There's some excellent ones :)
In the US there has been an automated train service at West Virginia University since the 70’s. It only has 3-4 stops. It was quite a folly when it opened as it used these new fangled computer things.
The People Mover!
Tom Scott has a great video on it for anyone who wants to learn more - “Pod cars of the past & future: the Morganstown PRT”
It's on a completely isolated track. We used to have a driverless Maglev in Birmingham. It was removed as it was unreliable. Fun to ride for 3 quarters of a mile.
technically.. its not a train
@@nether_bat What is not a train? We need more context!
@@hairyairey
A train is defined as ''a connected line of railroad cars with or without a locomotive'' according to many dictionaries and Wikipedia.
The Morganstown PRT does not meet this as one vehicle is a single rigid unit
It would be better classified as an automated people mover
Frank Sprague,who invented the Multiple Unit concept,also worked on elevators,and invented the multi- car shaft principle! So a lot of that unmanned elevator technology got carried over to the subway usage! A bit complicated,but its some heavy duty engineering that people take for granted! Thank you,Jago,as usual,your side excursions,wind up being fascinating! Thank you 😇 😊!!
Subways are horizontal elevators, and elevators are vertical subways. Change my mind...
@@InventorZahran Actually there was an advertisement from Baltimore,that said that out loud! See Baltimore Streetcar Museum for details! Thank you 😇 😊!
Brixton platforms were redecorated around 2007, grey tiles (except on the far wall) were replaced by cream and green ones, and illuminated glass signs were removed (only Pimlico and Hatton Cross still have them, plus a swjtched off one at Moorgate ). The green and orange "motifs" depicting a "ton of bricks" have been retained though. Brixton also now has the largest Underground "roundel" on the system, above the entrance, surpassing Arsenal's by some margin.
Yep! Prague is the latest Underground railway to automate whilst the two best metros in the world have always been automatic i.e. the VAL metro in Lille and the Skytrain metro in Vancouver.
I remember being on the southbound platform at Kings Cross some time in the early 2000s. A Victoria line train came belting into the station... and carried on belting through! Cue screaming of brakes and the train came to a halt with just the last carriage in the station. The front one must have been pretty much in Euston... I guess the train operator had a bit of a shock!
The Stockholm underground had a test train for ATO in the 60s I believe. And since 2000 the green line have been capable of ATO. The drivers can choose to drive or monitor.
Thank you, most interesting and informative. It always used to please me when waiting for a train into the city at Woodford to see the little ATO Hainault shuttle trundling in with it’s 1960 driving cars sandwiching the ancient trailers in between . . .
Thank you Jago for your “Driverless” offering, I am minded of the notifications that I have experienced and thinking of trains abruptly stopping because of a failure to update to the latest operating system. In 1984, I and numerous work colleagues visited London UndergrounD on a works outing which included “signalling.” At Acton Town the old relay system was in use, then a trip to the new Heathrow Terminal 4, where a desktop PC (of similar type in use where I worked) was in control. I remember the number of times that I was called to deal with PCs (desktop computers) where I worked that had failed. But, the walls were lined with the old relays - very reassuring. Here is a very belated massive thank you to London Transport Underground for a very special day - thank you LT, I’ll never forget your hospitality to me and my work colleagues on that day. Also a special Remembrance Day thought to the LT staff of Elmers End (ED) bus garage that were killed by a direct hit by a V1 doodlebug on the garage.
They all stop when the operating system gets updated 😂
Reminds me of The IT Crowd.
"What operating system is it?"
"Windows Vista."
"We're all going to die."
@@caw25sha 😂😂
When I read the title "Robot drives train" I imagined Robbie from Fireball XL5 in the driver's seat going "On our way 'ome, On our way 'ome" in his metalic voice!! 😄 I'm just glad I didn't use the Victoria line until it got to Brixton and the system was well tested!!!!
A good Jago Hazzard video is a relaxing way to end the work week
We get two on Fridays! His second channel drops today as well.
Totally agree!
I was lucky enough to get a cab ride on the Woodford-Hainault line during those early trials and pushed the 2 buttons to start the train. It all worked perfectly with no overruns or any other problems. I may be a bit of a Luddite, however, as I still like the thought of people driving trains, rather than automation.
It's not much of a comparison but people don't drive lifts anymore and haven't done for several decades.
@@kiwitrainguyHopefully, if you get stuck in a lift, there is an emergency call button and intercom. On trains without staff on board, hundreds of people can be stuck in a coach where the air con has failed, no windows can be opened and no toilets (I know lifts don't have toilets) and no means of communication.
This has occurred recently when the overhead power lines failed on the railway from Paddington, London.
Plus- I like driving trains 😀
That John Connor quip has me thinking the train will announce in a German accent: "Ride with me if you want to commute."
I'm waiting for my home system (WMATA in DC) to return to full ATO; they stopped in 2009 (!) due to a catastrophic collision and have only slowly been re-introducing it. But when it works, it works! (The Victoria Line is a beast and I loved getting to ride it in past trips.)
Austrian 🇦🇹
This is Brixton, where this train TERMINATES
@@Titan604Of course, I'm a Terminator!
THIS.....STAYSHUN..... COULD-BE-MIIIIIIIIIINE!
@@Ass_Burgers_Syndromenot a governator?
i wonder how many kids were all excited and wanted to see the train-driving robot, only to be immediately disillusioned by their parents.
Love the dartboard at 2:13! :)
I recall as a lad aged about 12 chatting to a driver on the Hainault loop when ATO was being trialled. He was very enthusiastic about it, and invited me into the cab for a ride around the loop to see how it worked. I remember thinking I was seeing the future...
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Barcelona because in 1959 they opened a new line with automatic train operation based on photocells and lights between the rails and it was developed in house! But it lasted until the 70s because they merged with another line. But anyways the last 25 years aprox the modern ATP-ATO came again.
“Mail bags aren’t the same as people, I’m told”: I like 👍 it, Sir. Jago. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeexcellent analogy, Sir. J. H.
The metro in Copenhagen is fully automatic operated but its also a system that is much smaller with only 4 lines.
It's growing quickly though like the Lille and Vancouver systems.
Though, the DLR is GoA3 : driverless but not unattended, an agent must be on board for the doors, etc.
Paris metro lines M14, M1 & M14, plus all 4 of the upcoming Grand Paris Express lines are fully driverless and unattended (GoA4), while almost all other historical lines have drivers with automated train operations (GoA2) since 1967 on, like RER central sections (akin to Elizabeth line central section operations).
Lines M1 & M4 are more than a century old and were recently converted.
Other significant GoA4 / UTO (Unattended Train Operation) metro lines include the new Sydney Metro North West line, Barcelona L9/L10, Lausanne M2, Sao Paulo Metro lines 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 15, Vancouver Skytrain, Montreal REM, Santiago Metro lines 3 and 6, Tokyo's Yurikamome line (among others), Copenhagen Metro / City Ringen, Doha Metro, several Singapore MRT and all LRT lines, Istanbul Metro lines M5 & M8, Torino Metro M1, Milano Metro lines 4 & 5, several other French cities' entire networks or lines like Lille, Rennes, Lyon, Toulouse and soon Marseille, Nuremberg U-Bahn lines U2 & U3, Roma Metro line C, and several others. Plus of course dozens of airport people mover systems.
One of the main advantages of full unattended train operations is the very high frequency allowed by such automation : down to 60 seconds on VAL systems like in Lille Rennes or Toulouse, and 80 seconds (for now) on Paris metro.
It also offers an immediate response capacity, allowing for many trains to be injected on the line at the last minute by a simple command. Without any managerial headaches about schedules, shifts, holidays etc.
When Beyoncé's concert in Paris la Défense Arena took longer than planned, line M1 dispatchers didn't have to worry about driver shifts or anything else.
They were in communication with the arena which told them that about 40+ thousand people were going to head their way in 10 minutes. Dispatchers only had to activate the super peak scenario and all concert goers enjoyed a super frequent noria of trains.
Fully automated lines with unattended operations are fantastic to handle crowds and rapidly, if not instantly, increase the capacity, or even the operating hours.
You can let the system work all night long on event nights with very minimal staffing. You no longer need to argue with thousands of drivers about who's gonna work on NYE, for example.
Fully automated lines with unattended operations should be the default standard for all new lines anywhere. And the upgrade goal for all major renovations. That's the case in France anyway, no new driver operated metro lines, only automated / unattended ones and conversion of previously driver operated ones to fully unattended ones.
As a public transit user, I find it to be nearly a night and day difference. The reliability of these lines is much higher than any manned line.
Nice Terminator reference at the end there!
Thank you very much for this condensed history. Automation on any level on any vehicle is NOT easy.
Detail, history and humour. Thanks Jago 😁
and the original Victoria line automatic system (once it worked !) would make the train brake at EXACTLY the same spot when entering a station . Hence the stress on the rails was EXACTLY at the same point . So more rail failures ! Human drivers, well they're a bit more random on the braking point they chose, so even out the rail wear a bit more.
I do think they solved this problem eventually on the automated system, and well newer digital computer controlled systems, I'm guessing they must sort of do something like this.
On the subject of the DLR , well I'd argue the "Train Captains" are still really drivers. They're about as much of a driver as the other lines where the driver only has to take over in emergencies.
There in lies the issue with fully automated trains. Even automated trains still really need a railway employee on a train for emergencies. De-training passengers on a train stuck in a tunnel is the major issue . So they still need a human, that is this side of the full Arnold , hopefully "Non Terminating" type, of robots becoming reality saying "I vont you to get off ze train !".
Thinking about that, like dogs often get the name "rover" and cats "tiddles" , when we have house hold robots, will most of them get called "Arnold" ? 😀
Yes, I worked on the Signal and Lighting Electrical division of LUL from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s . First as an apprentice electrician, then building electrician - not signalling ! and eventually ended up just pushing a pen around on bits of paper !
and you reminded me of Dell . He was talked about in "rarified tones" by the Signalling lot !
Honest... I was watching the pretty tube scenes and letting myself be gently lulled by Jago's dulcet tones without really paying attention, and then I heard that unforgettable phrase, "leaves on the tracks" and I was jolted to attention and instantly transported from 21st Century Australia back to late the 20th Century English South East, where these words were normally preceded by something along the lines of, "British Rail regret to announce the delay/cancellation of... due to...". I could feel the cold, wind, and damp frustration like it was yesterday.
Like the way you added my favourite station Roding Valley twice in video
Love the random dart board on the Post Office Railway platform
Living in Vancouver these days, our light rail - the Skytrain - is completely driverless. Except when there's snow or some other reason that the automated systems struggle. Then humans descend to drivers' chairs at the front of the carriages. It's truly the best of both worlds, and I do wish more cities would follow suit.
The biggest problem really is that retrofitting anything is a lot more difficult than doing it from the outset. So, to do it on the Victoria Line made sense, but retrofitting it to a line that was built when practical electricity hadn't been invented yet, that's a bit more difficult.
This is why the DLR could be made driverless from the start: it was a brand new system. And it doesn't go very fast, so it's easier to halt at the right place.
If you look at Paris, they made the brand new Line 14 driverless. But, because technology hadn't advanced enough in the late 1980s/early 1990s, these trains run on rubber tyres, because they reckoned that they couldn't line up the trains properly with the platform doors. Now, with the Grand Paris Express project, the trains will have proper steel wheels.
Therefore, the London Underground will eventually become driverless. If nothing else, technology progresses all the time, and problems that were insurmountable before become almost trivial. But, because this system was started in the 1860s, and because there are some other problems to solve first, it will probably be one of the last systems to become driverless.
It’s always lovely seeing All Red Tube Trains. As a kid I remember some Northern Line carriages in this livery.
Leaves appear to be the natural enemy of trains
"Leaves and trains are natural enemies! Just like leaves and trams! Like leaves and monorails! Like leaves and other leaves! DAMNED LEAVES! YOU RUINED WALTHAM FOREST!"
"You leaves sure are a contencious bunch"
"THATS IT! YOU'VE JUST MADE AN ENEMY FOR LIFE!"
Sounds like you can't see the forest for the leaves.😄@@emjackson2289
I once read an article from 1982 when the Helsinki metro opened it said that metro would be automatic by 1985. They were also planning do in it around 2014 and lates plans were from 2019...
I seem to remember that when the DLR was conceived that Hornby Railways provided the computer software but this may be an urban myth
Must be an urban myth, as the 1:1 scale of the DLR is accurate.
The first automatic train braking was in Victorian times. A radio signal was transmitted through the running rails, which has recently been readopted as an upgrade to DLR's SELTRAC.
Nice video and always a pleasure to see you appearing at the end, sir.
4:10 ~ those openable windows on the R-stock loop unusual 🧐 ~ how do they open?
Thd first ATO tested trains were on the Woofdord to Hainailt loop in the mid 60's in a trial for thd Victoria Line.
Wonderful video, thank you.
You are the Robot to my Automated watching
i enjoy this YT channel since I am enthusiastic about the london underground :D
Speaking of leaf fall, lets see a video on the rail adhesion trains! (And other engineering stock, past and present)
Really interesting and informative, as ever. Thanks, Jago!
Thank you Jago Computer for your automated discussion of my sister Robotic products. Over and Out. 🤣
BTW: 5 tube lines will be shut tomorrow (Sat 11th) until mid/late afternoon due to a signalling upgrade. Maybe rain makes the robots rusty... 🤔
Subsurface Resignalling work
That's very interesting. The other day I read an article about the multiple automation attempts on the metro in Hamburg, Germany. In the 60s the idea was also to cut labour costs and convert the metro to driverless but the system was not approved by the authorities. Then, in the 80s they tried again but now the passengers weren't ready for it. At that time the guards and station personnell were reduced and finally omitted and the passenger numbers were at an all time low. So it could become quite deserted and eary on the trains. Driverless "ghost trains" didn't really help to make people feel more comfortable. Now, in the 2020s the next attempt is taken to automate existing line and a fully driverless line is under construction. Let's see how it goes ^^
I have to say that I always like your videos Jago!
When I was a teenager a Victoria line driver let me press both start buttons together to start the train after he closed the doors and closed the cab window. Good old days.
They have that same automatic control system installed in the new Metro Tunnel in Melbourne Australia so the trains will only operate automatically with drivers in the Metro Tunnel section of the line and another reason for it is so the trains always perfectly align themselves with the platform screen doors in the new Metro Tunnel underground stations.
Didn’t know Haaland took a stab at driving a tube train
Completed the quadruple now
The Expo Express (basically a standard gauge railway with subway carriages) at the 1967 World's Fair in Montreal was entirely automated. However the city's transit agency was tapped to provide bodies tonoccupy the drivers' seats in each rake to quell visitors' fears...
Do robots insist upon regular oil-breaks (instead of tea-breaks) ?! 😊🇬🇧🤔💙🧡🖖
I just learned that you can buy a pair of weights to hang on the steering wheel of your self driving Tesla, so it thinks you are holding the wheel.
Westinghouse Signalling would also use that automation system on the first two Singapore Metro lines that opened in the late 1980s which also was seemingly the first system to feature platform screen doors.
This is a fully automated system, nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go ...........
So drivers of automated trains have the duties guards used to have, plus press the start button? Must have taken years to avoid a demarcation dispute
Not really. Guards were progressively removed from the system from the mid 80s onwards with drivers then taking on door operation duties ( but not platform observance on departure).
So in effect the operators job is having the driving function removed apart from any booked manual moves ( that used to be a feature of the Victoria line but may not now be the case) and manual driving in event of a failure of the auto driving control systems.
The DLR isn't driverless ... just the driver doesn't usually drive the train ...
...and they are so closely monitored from a control room, they effectively have two drivers, one is on the train but not driving, one is not even on the train ...
A truly driverless train is unlikely - too many unanticipated things can go wrong that need human input ...
You've not used the VAL system in Lille and Toulouse. They are fully automatic and 100% driverless.
actually, there are THREE levels of automation. Automatic operation (GoA2 - Grade of Automation ,London Underground), Driverless operation (Goa3, DLR), and Unattended operation (GoA4, Luton DART or Paris metro line 1). GoA4 is my favorite, and with new CCTV advancements a conductor doesn't need to be on board the train to keep an eye on things...
2:30 An engineer named Dell huh?
*Team Fortress 2 intensifies*
Rest assured, if driver-less trains are adopted the travelling public won't see a single penny knocked off the cost of a ticket....
But it will stop they layabouts going on strike
@@Darkuk naiive - the control room staff can still strike. It's happened on the DLR.
Layabouts?@@Darkuk
@@BibTheBoulderTheOriginalOneHe means workers who are actually able to stand up for themselves. He doesn't like that.
@@DarkukTypical talk from a scab that enjoy the benefits fought for by unions and union members.
This is an automated response to say that I have enjoyed this content. Further automated responses will be delivered on receipt of new videos of a similar nature.
As I remember it, the Victoria Line ATO tended to brake as late and as hard as was practical. But on particularly damp or cold days, the driver would have to blip the emergency brake to prevent overruns.
Atleast make the Waterloo and city fully automatic, maybe as a test, it’s fully underground, small, and not very used
when you say these trains generally work on the whole or hole,. which hole?
black hole? or the great blue hole?
is this hole related to the holes that filled the albert hall?
5:32 - I can't beleave you missed a great pun - ah, just leave it!
Still full driver operation on the Munich U - Bahn, and in Berlin. Good mix of men and women drivers.
Well that took an unexpectedly dark turn at the end!
"...underground, where there are few, if any, trees..."
You can't really call the DLR a fully automated system anymore. It's seems like it's now standard practice for a member of staff on the train to close the doors and an increasing number seem to operate the train from the front. There was a time when they were completely driverless and needed no human intervention at all!
Good Evening Drago. Late with this comment I know (should have been the E&C Episode, but I didn't have the book then), but I came across a story in my W. B. Herbert book called "The Footplate Ghost". It is a fascinating story, but is very sparse on locations due, as the author states, to the interviewee being unwilling to provide too much information. Given your excellent research and deduction powers, I think it would be a great story to look into. While not a true "Tube Story", all right not a tube story at all...just a railway story, I can think of no other who could do it justice. I'd be more than happy to send the details over.
And please keep up the great work! Although subscribed to a number of channels, yours is the only I ever comment on as the quality is truly excellent.
Not sure if you will see this, but the correct name for the story is “The Platelayers Hut”.
Trying to not fall asleep, I got the impression the there trains are automated but there are still drivers on them. Is this correct? If so, where have you guys been. The BART in San Francisco has been driverless since it opened in the mid 1960s.
The Skytrain in Vancouver. British Columbia has been driverless from the start in the mid 1980s. Plus most of the Vancouver system operates using linear induction motors.
We're stuck with one here in Sydney, New South Wales. :(
I think we've all worked with someone like Dell.
'I have to drive a train. I'll be back.'
In my own tube network heavily based on the London Underground, all trains will be automatic with front window views and rear window views.
Quite funny this comes out the day before the Jubilee District, Circle, H and C and Metropolitan line are all closed for a signal upgrade on Saturday 11th November. Robots still need signals. 😃
Brilliant video sir, would you ever do a video on the "King's Cross York road" Station?
I have!
It was always fascinating watching the drivers on the old Central Line trains when they drove the train from the carriage, only separated from the passengers by a small bar. All they seemed to do was press a few buttons.
Those were guards, not drivers. They had to open and close doors, and keep an eye on things.
You are very brave tackling such a contentious issue in public.
No he's not
Yes is he
No he's not
Yes he is.....pmsl
I might be mistaken, but I believe that the BART line in the San Francisco Bay area was designed by Westinghouse and has been fully automated from the beginning. I live 3,000 miles east of it, so I could be mistaken.
😅 I thought Westinghouse made washing machines. I'm an idiot obviously.😅
@@brigidsingleton1596The US and British companies were completely separate. The UK company was The Westinghouse Brake and Signal Company, a vast operation which made a huge range of railway equipment.
@@caw25sha
Thanks. Like I said... I'm an idiot
(A know_nothing Brit !!)
Just not at all techy-minded. 🤔🥺😟🇬🇧🧡🖖
@@brigidsingleton1596
They made everything from toasters, light bulbs, washing machines, to railroad equipment. They were second in size only to GE. And NO, you're not an idiot. Just not informed.
@@ronalddevine9587
Thanks again. Now that I can see again (cataracts surgery June & Sept) I will try to read more / watch more 🇬🇧🧡🖖
Maybe if a robot had GPP, we could have a depressing robot like Marvin, and nobody would notice the difference!
Is South Kensignton no longer a Piccadilly Line stop?
Ahh Jago i would love you to do a technical video in your best way on how the Docklands railway works?
Marc in Bletchley G6XEG
I'd never heard of this post office line you mentioned, I would be interested to see a video about that
There’s one on this channel!
Actually, fully automatic trains that have no driver, are known as people movers. There usually found at airports and at Disney in the US.
Thank you Robert, erm I mean Jago (sorry), for another fascinating video
Hey at least the robots are happy.
And what happens when 'the robots' encounter 'animals, plants and things on the line' (see 'Lists of excuses for railway delays' for examples).
Eliminates human error….. and introduces machine error.
The DLR isn't driverless. There is a great episode of RailNatter on the subject. Nice chart at 40:03> ua-cam.com/video/9iou-WzGIBs/v-deo.html
Another proof of the inherent difficulties of implementing technical improvements or radical evolutions to the London underground system due to its absolute can of worms history.leading to a complicated jungle of network with numerous branching lines, duplicated (or more..
cf. The n-Acton story) stations, shared tracks, and mismatched systems (train or tube loading gauge, 3 rail, 4 rail or overhead feed, curve radius, and so on.
Most other metro/underground/subways networks never had those impossible hurdles to deal with and the results are visible:
Paris network: automated trains introduced in 71. All lines automated five years later.
Driverless trains: introduced on line 14 in 1998.
Lines 1 and 4 driverless now. Line 11 in works. And new lines - 14 to 18 (first parts opening first quarter of 24).
Driverless trains can be used on automatic mode if need be and wide interoperability between most of the rolling stock (just two categories: metal wheels or tyre ones (lines 1, 4, 6, 11, 14).
Same with most European networks with historically rarely more than 2 competing private companies and generally just one (municipal, almost never privately owned).
Feeling very smug I spotted Ravensmede Way at first glance. How appropriate, it was a railway line
"Westinghouse, manufacturers of signalling equipment among other things"
Good thing they didn't propose powering an automated tube train with one of their nuclear reactors or we'd probably have a crazed robot nuclear train rushing around the circle line today....
The Daily Heil with a sensationalist headline? I am shocked.