Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D Mark IV | Part 1: Sensor Performance | 4K
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D Mark IV | Part 1: Sensor Performance | Join photographer Dustin Abbott as he compares the new Nikon D850 to Canon's excellent Canon 5D Mark IV. In this episode he breaks down sensor performance, including ISO range performance, ISO invariance, Dynamic Range, and shadow/highlight recovery. Visit the D850 Image Gallery: bit.ly/D850DA | Purchase the D850: B&H Photo: bhpho.to/2ws3GmC | Amazon: amzn.to/2j0I88n | Purchase the 5D Mark IV: B&H Photo: bhpho.to/2cLng3e | Amazon: amzn.to/2mAJ7MX
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Keywords: Nikon D850, Nikon D850 Review, Nikon D850 Video, Nikon D850 video test, Nikon D850 Comparison, Nikon, D850, High ISO, Resolution, Nikon D850 vs Canon 5D Mark IV, Canon EOS, Canon, 5D Mark IV, 5D4, Dustin Abbott, Comparison, Test, Review, AF, Tracking, Dynamic Range, Nikon D850 4K, 2017, Photography, Sample Photos - Наука та технологія
Nikon / Canon, both make lovely cameras. I use both and love them both.
I know I am kind of randomly asking but does anybody know of a good place to watch new movies online?
@Messiah Theo Try flixzone. You can find it by googling =)
Love this vid, excited for part 2 thanks Dustin!
My pleasure.
Great Comparison! Very informative & great narrative! Thanks!
My pleasure.
I wish that I could find one person on whole UA-cam who could put so much effort and energy to the review of Nikon products as You do for Canon. I wonder why You have only 31k subscribers. There is nobody who come even close to Your level of reviews. Well done mr. Abbott. Another excellent video.
Thanks. I suspect there are some very good, detailed Nikon reviewers. Keep looking!
Another fantastic and thorough review, Justin. Great job. Thank you.
My pleasure.
WOW!! Such a detailed review. You are really one of the few best reviewer on UA-cam that I know of. I feel short of words in your appreciation.
Thank you!
You are a very cautious, informative and unbiassed judge of the performance of the equipment you review. You often make up my mind for me.
Thank you for your hard work and for what appears to be unbiased reviews. I always enjoy seeing the results in the way you present them , being a hobbyist it helps me understand a lot easier. Plus I always learn little tricks you use here and there.
Glad they are helping out.
Very informative video. Your reviews/conclusions are eagerly interesting.
Thanks, Keith.
Thanks. Courageous and good review!
LOL - I didn't know how courageous it was when I shot it. I was unprepared for the "fanboyism" on both sides. I was just trying to share information.
Solid review. Thanks.
My pleasure
Thanks Dustin. I'm an avid amature photograher and totally enjoy your unbiased and informative reviews.
Thanks for the feedback.
Crazy IQ and ISO performance of two brands, but at the end of the day, both cameras will render amazing pictures in the right hands
Very true.
At the end... Nikon D850 has pixel shift? Or I misheard something? @22:00
No, I misspoke. I was confusing specs from the newly announced (at the time ) Sony a7R3
Great review! Thank you for your work.
I do not know English, but I'm still interested in listening to you)
That’s very high praise.
I used to care so much about the sensor performance until I saw some of the photographers using their "inferior" 5D MK II or III to produce stunning images on 500px. Thanks for the video and looking forward to your next 85 1.4 review video.
You nailed it. Great cameras help, but it still comes down the photographer's abilities.
Thanks
You're welcome.
another great unbiased review, keep-up the great work ! dynamic range is always my goal so i currently use an A7Rii, but as you say there is not a lot between any of these cameras, I do however miss canon's colour science !
They are all great cameras.
Your reviews are fantastic. No exception here. Wondering if you could compare the D850 to the a7rIII.
I’m afraid not. The D850 has returned to its owner. I will compare it to the Canon, which I own, however.
That would be great. Thanks!
I am Nikon shooter, actually Nikon D850 is not sharp as you guys think, without tripod the D850 is useless not sharp. Nikon D810 is very sharp because it use Sony sensor. so I believe Sony a7r lll is very sharp resolution
Thanks for the unbiased comparison! Always nice to be information presented in a straight forward manner. Do you feel there are any situations where the canon sensor has a clear or distinct advantage? I know you preferred the look at lower iso, but it didn't seem like these differences were make or break, when compared to the pushing ability of the nikon.
In my second episode I show show areas that I feel are clear advantages for the Canon, but no, I don't think there is any "make or break" sensor issues between the 5D Mark IV, Nikon D850, or Sony a7R3. They are all very competent.
Dustin Abbott thanks for the reply, and good to know. I've experienced first hand the differences in sensor performance with the older models /technology from Canon, so while I suspected they had essentially caught up, it's nice to hear it from someone who has tried it against the latest Nikon also
Does applying the Camera and lens profile in Lr would help in anyway and change the result of your review. ?
Hmmm, I don't see why it would. This shouldn't be about the lens.
outstanding video Dustin. i appreciate this comparison. 5 stars.
Thank you!
Thank you for your videos Dustin, I have used your information to make buying choices more than once. One thing, at the end of the video you say the D850 can use pixel shift, to the best of my knowledge the D850 does not have that technology. Maybe you were thinking of focus shift?
Hmmm, you could be right. I'm not familiar enough with Nikons to remember if that is what I saw in the menus.
I had no idea the 5D4 would come that close. Everyone always blows everything way out of proportion exactly like the 6D2.
I didn't know what to expect, either. The nature of UA-cam seems to be very extreme.
If I'm going to drop 2k on a 2017 camera, it better have a good sensor. 4k video is just the icing on the top. Not overblown, not sorry. With blackfriday sales, the 6d2 is priced where it should have on release but too late, I already switched to a brand new a7rii for 2k a couple months ago. The image quality and latitude continues to blow me away coming from a 6d (which I loved btw)
Lric canon's premium price comes from its reliability and quality service
It's hard to argue against the sensor in the A7RII (the ergonomics and focus are another story!). The Sony sensor is pretty amazing.
I agree Joey. Knock on wood that my sony gear don't have any problems anytime soon and that their service is fine for when it does one day!
Hi Dustin, great effort! Just one comment, in the ISO invariance test, the two exposure times are different. Longer exposure will have less noise b/c of physics law. I believe the test has to be done by using the same exposure time and then pull the iso400 by 4 stops and compared to 6400.
I used the in camera EV to due that test (I'm a little thrown by the difference in base ISOs for the math), but wasn't happy with this result either, which did seem to favor the Nikon due to the difference in metering.
The conclusion is not affected anyway. When you did the shadow pushing test, both pictures have the same exposure time and that's saying very similar conclusion. Anyway, thanks for doing the detailed test!
When you imported the nikon nef files into lightroom which camera calibration setting were you applying? Adobe standard? Camera standard? This has a profound impact on the image.
I set both of them to Adobe RGB in camera, and then imported from both with identical settings (Adobe Standard - Version 4). My goal was to try to equalize settings as much as possible.
Thanks for the reply.
Just started the video but I can already tell hearts are going to break by the end of it.
LOL. I've already heard it from Canon and Nikon fanboys :)
A very good comparison Dustin. The difference between the cameras is much smaller than you might think having read all the negative press the 5D mark IV gets.
That's because this type of test isn't done often enough. Loud people shout out extreme opinions and people seem to accept that
Dustin Abbott this video really made my day. Just, purchased the 5D4 few days ago.
I wish I've seen this video two two years ago when I was looking into booth cameras to choose one. I've chosen Nikon over Canon exactly for the shadow/highlight recovery capabilities. now I am going to buy small and light mirror-less camera for long walk and hiking situations and I think I will find the right choice here in your channel ;)
Glad to help out.
I have to say Dustin, that you are quite phenomenal of keeping an unbiased view and give due credit to everything you review, regardless of brand, personal opinion etc. I think everyone considering anyone of these cameras should watch this video, and they would probably be as surprised as I am, that the difference is not more pronounced than it is. I wonder though if the default Lightroom profile for each camera may affect the comparison to some extent; the contrastier look from the Canon as well as the outdoor shadow recovery would perhaps be less apparent if chosing another camera color profile. For instance chosing the "Neutral" camera for the Canon makes the image less contrasty. Anyway, by far the most interesting side by side test of these cameras I have seen! Excellent! (As always)
All of those things are possible, and one could certainly do a more exhaustive (and better) comparison than what I've done, but I tried to do a few real world tests that could illustrate a few points. The main point is that the difference between most camera systems isn't as extreme as what we are lead to believe.
I think d850 got the bsi sensor that allow more light into the sensor resulting its image is brighter. Higher dynamic range also will reduce the contrast a little bit. I would say the d850 is a little more superior but not by much.
Sounds fair
Hi Dustin. Do you think they are releasing 5Ds mark 2?
I have no doubt there will be one. When, I don't know.
Thank you for the review. I find your reviews very useful, especially lenses. In my opinion other reviewers will too quickly say brand "x" is the best without ever using brand "Y" and basing an opinion only what they have read. Your reviews gives us the opportunity to look for ourselves and determine what is best for us. It appears to me some are very quick to change systems based on what is new. Nikon comes out with D810, some people jump to Nikon, then Canon comes out with the 5DSr. I personally like my 5D series bodies and learning to be patient to see what Canon comes out with in the future. At the end of the day, the D850 or 5D MK IV you cant go wrong. Yes Sony entices me, but the current native lens availability and professional support is why at this time Canon is my preferable choice. Look forward to future reviews.
That's a reasoned take.
What lenses precisely are missing in current Sony lineup that couldn't satisfy your needs?
For me, I would need a 400mm - (Sony indicates September, 2018 availability), 500mm, 200mm, replace Zeiss Otus 55mm. and a couple of others to match what I have. I shoot mostly primes. I know Sony is working on updating lenses, but is not there at this time. For me I can not cost justify the changing of systems for the potential gain. I once tried maintaining multiple systems but it became difficult based on my current collection of lenses. Don't get me wrong, Sony is doing a great job and the last couple of bodies appear to be excellent, but the gain I would get and the continuing upgrading by Canon does not justify the cost. The 5D and 1D series while not as advanced as the newer Sonys, still do excellent in my opinion for what I need. In my opinion, Canon Professional Services is second to none. Its a good feeling that I can send equipment out at the beginning of the week and get it back before the weekend of the same week. I know Sony is trying to catch up but they do not equal Canon at this time when it comes to service. My opinion. Nothing wrong with the new Sony body, but looking at the whole picture, for me its not worth the additional investment.
pebmets Sounds like you've got an expensive taste in lenses :) And even if I myself switched to Sony this year I do agree with your reasoning. Switching systems is not easy if one is heavily invested in lenses. That said, roumers have it that the new R3 is performing very good with adapter and Canon L optics. Hopefully Dustin will get one and do some proper unbiased tests. Cheers
Solid comparison. I own a d850 and I absolutely love it. Just dont understand why people are shifting from Canon 5d4 to Nikon or Sony. 5D4 is a stellar camera.
I think it's easy to hear of some hot new feature and think that since your camera doesn't have that feature that it isn't good anymore. That's the power of marketing.
I'm a Canon owner whom is toying with the idea of switching to a D850 for the 9fps (with the grip of course). You've basically got a D500 and a D850 combined, and that's pretty awesome.
I have a 5D4 and just placed an order for a D850. Wht not have the best of both worlds? That way when either cone out with a new winner in the future you don't have to choose. Just trade in your old gear and upgrade!
It only matters if you have real use for 9fps. Image quality wise they are both great. I have the 5D4 and couldn't be happier. Not that there isn't the posibility of a better camera out there, I just don't feel the need to look elsewhere when I am happy with what my camera produces and its ergonomics.
And why do you need that? Just pay attention to whats happening and i think the 7fps would be enough. And u gonna save yourself some editing time and some shutter counts.
Hi Dustin, I’ve been shooting for about 3 years with a d750 and I was thinking maybe upgrading my d750 for a d850 but I notice my Mac is getting old. I was thinking getting windows. I have no idea where to start. Can you make a video of what would I need in the computer department. Thank you and great review!
I can't make a video, but essentially prioritize getting a lot of RAM in your new system.
Dustin Abbott Thanks! I wish I could do everything on my phone or iPad. Lol keep up the good work. I love your channel.
I’ve found that people buying a high end camera (and I sell a ton of them for a living) are usually experienced enough to know that they can adjust the exposure if it’s under or over exposing. Because of this latitude, I would have simply dialed in the exposure compensation in the camera so the shots would be the same. Someone else already pointed out not using the lenses wide open and I agree.
One other thing I would have liked people to be able to see side by side is what the canon looked like in the extreme examples of pushing shadows in that sunset.
I didn’t have the Canon on hand when shooting the sunset (that wasn’t really a controlled test; I was just out shooting). I did dial in the identical settings to both cameras, same metering modes, same exposure compensation, fixed lighting, and the images on the back of the screen appeared the same. It was only when reviewing them on a monitor later that the minor exposure variation was there (and because you re experienced, as you say, you can recognize how minor a 1/3rd stop variance actually is)
I can't understand why the results you're demonstrating differ significantly from what I see out of the dpreview image sample comparison. My first thought is you gave the cameras different amounts of light because the shutter speed differed. My second thought is the lenses you were using weren't capable of bring out the resolution potential of the D850.
Both lenses are near the top of their class in sharpness and are modern releases. I set up both cameras identically, but the difference in base ISO does produce a different metering result. I haven't seen DP Review's comparison, but just know that different test scenarios can produce different results. I try to do my tests as "real world" as possible, since people don't actually shoot in a lab.
@ 20:40 The cat has stopped the aperture all the way down!
Loke blackmagic ursa 4k has got 22 stops so what is the f stops of canon 5d mark4
With the C Log update it can do 14 stops.
Great comparrison! As a 5D mark IV owner I'm glad to see that it still stands it's ground. I just hope you're not thinking about switching to Nikon. I would be very sorry to have to say farewell to my favorite Canon reviewer...
Not at all. This was a one time thing enabled by a friendly viewer who wanted me to have chance to review the hottest camera at the moment.
Yes, the best in the business is laying hands on a Nikon, better still the one I plan to replace my D800E with. Bravo Dustin!!!
I see no reason why you won't be delighted with the D850
Fantastic review, although I knew and I was expecting this. Guess what, since the D850 and now the A7r3 came out, I just kept making calculations of costs to switch. Then , I was having real world gigs with my 5div and realizing more and more how impeccable is and how I DON"T need to lose some 4000 dollars over a transition, for very little outcome. If you ask me, the thing that I desire the most from the D850 is the tilting screen, for rest I don't care, the video looks indeed amazing , but without a good autofocus for me is a no-no. Still, I won't deny that, just for the politics of it, I wait for Canon to come with a fabulous 5dsII , 60 mpx, flipout screen, 4k video, and dynamic range as good as 5dIv, and I am sold.
I definitely don't think there is enough difference in either system to justify selling and switching at a huge loss. My next episode shows how that both have their strengths, but they are both good cameras.
The way Canon answering Sigma 85mm lens with its new 85mm f1.4 L IS convinced me that Canon really listens to the market. They are a big company, they are maybe a little bit behind in its sensor technology, but surely they will catch up soon.
correct me if i am wrong, but i believe since the nikon has a higher MP count that the file should be resized (not zoomed inside lightroom) to the canon level for better comparison.
Someone didn't watch all the way through - I give examples of both in this video.
Yep busted sorry. I got busy, and stopped halfway (assumed it went that direction). But my comment was for the first half (almost half way)
Wow I love that you did this video!! I have not had a camera that enticed me to leave Canon until this beast was announced. I still shoot cropped as I use my 7D MkII for birds and action shots of my daughters dancing. It only does a mediocre job of the dancing in low light but I still love my 10fps. As I've been exploring adding a full frame to my arsenal the new D850 was enticing and I've been researching it contemplating whether it was worth the jump? I've decided to stay the course as I love my glass I have so far and unless it was a night and day difference I'm too invested for my taste. Nikon has made leaps and bounds improvements and I'm impressed to say the least. If Canon keeps lagging behind the market the way they have the last year or two I think more people will do what I'm thinking of as well. Thanks so much for the comparison and I'm glad to see it is not just blowing away the Canon in any way image quality wise. Can't wait to see part 2!!!
There's a lot of parity out there, but I do think the D850 is probably the strongest contender at the moment in this class.
Comparing the background noise seems to me apples and oranges because all Nikon picture at the left side are slightly overexposed compared to the right side (e.g. pic 7of21/800 ISO) - look at the wood of the table: in the left pic it's very much brighter than on the right side; thus noise on gray is visible but on black you can't see it even if it's there... Bring the right pictures to the same gray background and let's see.
Before switching to canon with the 5d mark iv, I used, and still have, a nikon d7100 which despite having an apsc sensor had incredible detail and sharpness, not to mention the dynamic range of the sensor, and is a 2013 model.
Obviously with the 5d mark iv we are on another planet, but nikon mounts fantastic sensors on its reflex cameras, they have a shadow recovery that almost does not compete with anyone.
Anyway congratulations, nice review!
The dynamic range is very good, and helped a bit by a lower base ISO
I picked up the 5D4 for my family almost 2 months ago. We could really use two cameras.. I couldn't justify a second 5D4 so I just placed an order for the D850.. Now for the wait.. Lol, and time to peruse the some primes!
Your poor family - only a 5DIV and a D850 :)
Dustin Abbott gotta love interest free financing!! Hence why I went on a whim for the D850.
I think if you did a comparison with the 5 year old d810 and cannon mark5 you'll see a very similar result. It seems sensor advancement has plateaued , at least in its current state . The d810 at its time was ground braking and any full frame dslr or mirrorless since then has only shown minor improvement IQ wise apart from increasing mega pixels. There seems no reason to upgrade from any 4year old system to anything new unless you after more pixels or better AF , this is a better time then ever to buy second hand as your buying old tech at a steal that holds up to most aspects of any new system .
That's a good point. Canon's sensor became a lot more competitive with the 5D Mark IV (and the 80D before it), but kudos to Sony, Nikon, and Canon for giving us excellent tools to work with.
I'm actually surprised about how good the Canon sensor held up to arguably the best full frame sensor to date in those extreme scenarios...
In the second episode I talk about how the reality is that all of these top cameras are very good. If you can't get what you need out of them the fault is with the photographer, not the camera.
Dustin Abbott Very true!
Dustin, I love your reviews so I'm really not trying to 'hate', but I do agree with what some people are saying about matching exposures.
For example, with the ISO invariance section starting around 13 minutes in, you compare the D850 shot at ISO 400 with a shutter speed of 1/1000 pushed 4 stops, with a shot at IS0 6400 at 1/1600 and then look at the defocussed area and conclude that the 400 shot is cleaner. But of course it's cleaner, it's had more light exposed to the sensor - AKA increasing the 'signal' reaching the sensor of course reducing its signal-to-noise ratio...
I wasn't crazy about the ISO invariance section either, to be honest, as the two cameras delivered very different shutter speeds when dialing in EV difference. My personal problem is that all of my typical math is thrown off by the ISO 64 base ISO of the D850. Like I said, I'm no Nikon expert.
Superb review. I own a 5DII, 5DIII and a 5DIV. Love them all for various reasons and purposes but just love the idea of a D850 in that it is an amazing camera. So this review is of particular interest. I own a lot of good canon glass though, and despite the D850's brilliance and advantages as you have demonstrated, e.g. particularly in low light, higher ISO settings, I still cannot justify the change in financial terms. None of my Canon 5D cameras have let me down yet. I hope they never will. May be the 5D'V' will feature some of the D850's advantages, lke a high resolution tilt screen, for one? It can't be difficult for Canon to stay with Nikon in these areas, and I am mystified why they don't.....they are probably focussing too much on the 'mirrorless' cameras now. Long live the DSLR!
Nikon kind of threw everything at the D850 because of some slipping in the market. I think that Canon has not had to do that because they’ve had a more secure market position. I’d be interested in knowing how D850 sales compare to 5DIV sales.
How are you lighting this talking head part? How is the outside background so perfectly exposed? What kind of magic is this?
Just expose for the outside and then try to match lighting inside. I'm using a couple of softboxes.
Thanks. It really looks amazing.
Dustin, put the comparision with a Canon 5DSR too please.
Afraid I don't have a 5DsR, and this was a one time thing with the Nikon.
21:57 - Didn't know D850 could pixel shift. 🤔
It cannot 🌞
I am a proud Canon5D Mark IV user and this video very much pampered my ego in the first half. Though it’s very well compared.
The second half may have hurt a little more :) I apparently provided just enough information for everyone to be unhappy with me :)
It’s true but still love my 5D.
Everyone's not entirely satisfied? Then you know you've positioned yourself just right.
Proud?
I think it’s a personal choice, which brand or product one should go with, stick to or switch over. It depends on the faith and the first experience with the brand and the product. End of the day clients don’t at all concerned or even notice how much shadows are recovered or details in high light area unless we show them 2 different products shot with two different brands. The clients look for entire look and feel. Their main concern is how they look in the photograph and their bonding with the people in the surrounding. We photographers are more concerned about such details, which is okay. We ourselves have to decide that how much importance one should give to these things and to what extent because it is never ending.
I have always enjoyed your videos including this one, I do think that the Tamron 70-200 is a far better lens than the Nikon counter part, much less chromatic aberration. When you put the same lens on both cameras that is where I saw the Nikon really shine....
Well, in both cases it was the same lens on both cameras - the first segment was with the Tamron 70-200 G2 (both Canon and Nikon mounts) and then the Tamron 15-30 VC (both Canon and Nikon mounts).
Interesting, I mentioned it because of the distortion and the fact that the meta data in the Nikon did not reflect Tamron 70-200?
Obviously they report EXIF data differently, but it was the same lens on both cameras.
Why aren't both shot at 120mm? It is exaclty the same lens and both are FF, right?
With a zoom lens like this, there is quite a bit of space between 100 and 135mm (the next marker). I tried to get perfectly equivalent framing at the distance the tripod was set up from. That ended up as a very slight (6mm) difference between the two lenses.
I don't think you were intentionally trying to be biased, but I think all of the d850's photos were relatively front-focused which explains general lack of sharpness. I suppose it's pretty difficult to achieve exactly the same focus on two different cameras but why not close down few stops so that focus has less impact? Also, iso 64 image looks slightly shaken. I don't know if you only took one photo at that iso and there was a mistake or it was some sort of shutter/mirror shock. Did you use mirror up and shutter delay (better yet, e-front shutter)? Don't get me wrong I do think you are probably one of the few(if only one) youtube reviewers who actually know what he is talking about but not noticing shaken photos when doing sharpness test is a bit disappointing.
These are all Live View 10x focused, mirror lockup. Lens sample variation could be at play, but I did use the same lens on both lens (Tamron 70-200 G2). This isn’t a vibration or focus issue.
I understand you were being careful but even 10X live view + manual focus would result in slightly different focus every time. Examine parts such as the screw by 'feet' and other little holes as well - they are alittle more out of focus than in canon images. As for vibration, I ran your video over and over and Iso 64 image still seems slightly smudged. Could it all be due to lens variation? Not impossible, I suppose. But why risk any minor difference in centering or focus potentially affect image quality more than necessary by shooting wide open?
Does downsampling affect the output image?
I has two positive effects: 1) it crams more pixels into smaller space, which increases apparent resolution 2) it crams the noise into a smaller space, which makes the noise less visible.
I thought it would lose some detail/contrast, by interpolating 100 pixels (10x10) output from ~150 pixels input. Kind of similar to smoothing/noise reduction?
Not at all. You aren't discarding the pixel information, just changing the pixel density (higher!)
Just so I am clear, the Nikon images starts out at 8256x5504 and downsampled to 6720x4480, correct? Maybe I can email you my questions?
Those are interesting findings. One would expect the Sony sensored Nikon to blow the Canon's sensor away in every aspect. It seems Sony sensors only start showing it's tech advantages with latitude/dynamic range and high ISO.
I think we sometimes see lab results and lose sight of the fact that the differences in the real world are far more minimal than we expect.
The Nikon D850 sensor is designed by Nikon (nikonrumors.com/2017/08/24/nikon-designed-the-d850-sensor-themselves.aspx/), but very likely made not by Sony but by TowerJazz (Migdal Haemek, Israel) (nikonrumors.com/2017/11/14/first-indication-that-the-nikon-d850-sensor-could-be-made-by-towerjazz.aspx/)
Yeah sorry it’s not a Sony sensor
It's also not 100% sure, because Nikon is a little vague about it. They only state that they design their sensors, but who produces which sensor they don't want to give free (not to hurt their image).
Not a Sony sensor in the Nikon.
Interestingly, when I had D800e I was a bit jelous of the all around features of 5Dm3. But after getting D850 I no longer care. I got my (almost) perfect do it all camera.
The frame rate, tilt screen, silent shutter, amazing AF (not in live view though), highly flexible image that provides both high resolution and excellent low light performance with excellent dynamic range is a dream come true. The only major area that could use improvement is live view AF.
Live View AF is definitely still a weak point, but yes, this is a very complete camera
I think you need to compare this Nikon to the Canon 50MP 5DR
Oh no, run the Dynamic range hounds are coming D: Now you did it.....
LOL. It's more the fanboys that I dread. No matter what you show them, they won't believe the evidence.
Thank you for your extremely knowledgeable reviews Dustin, I’m watching all your videos!
I just got the D850, but I’m so indecisive about what basic (probably 3) lenses to get for it, I shoot both, landscapes and portraits (mostly children) and I was set on the Nikkor 105mm f/1.4, but someone mentioned that the vr was problematic in this combination, which is a big problem if your shoot around rambunctious kids.
Any advise on what medium priced lens (or lenses) to get for this camera will be immensely appreciated.
Hmmm. I actually really like the Tamron 85mm f/1.8 VC lens if you think f/1.8 can cut it. It has great AF, image quality, and a nice moderate size and weight. Great build, too. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Nikkor branded lenses as I'm not actually a Nikon shooter.
Dustin Abbott I saw your review for the Tamron, and I will actually get that one because of you.
Thank you for sharing all your knowledge!
I wonder how a 5d4 sensor would work without the dualpixel handicap it has for pushing and pulling.
I'm interested in seeing where Canon can take the Dualpixel tech in the future. Right now I simply don't use it, but I understand there is potential there to do some amazing things.
If you use your canons to record video you are making use of that dualpixel technology.
That is the main thing industry leading autofocus in video. I think it is hurting them in ISO performance since it has 60 tiny megapixels, can't be helping them with reading out all that information.
I think the 5d4 is a seriously underrated camera because canon isn't honking their own horn as hard as some other companies are doing when it comes to technological innovations they are bringing.
You're talking about DPAF; I was referring to Dual Pixel RAW. DPAF doesn't affect image quality.
Yes, canon gives you the option of actually using the information of both photosites that make up the "dualpixel" they introduced in 2013 with the 70D's DPAF, now for photography reasons as they have more powerful processors to deal with all that extra data where they just binned it before.
When they split those photodiodes they reduced their maximum charge resulting in them being more sensitive to noise and having lower dynamic range.
The binning of those dualpixels allows for some noise reduction but doesn't help the loss in dynamic range.
PDAF does affect image quality well you know dxomark scores.
I think the Nikon would have performed better if the 70-200 was stopped down (to diminish the effects of copy to copy variation), the lenses were actually at the same focal length, the frames were identical (the subject in the Nikon seemed closer to the edge of the frame), and the settings were matched instead of "metered." If the Nikon background is brighter than the Canon's its gonna have more noise.
In the end, how long does someone look at a photograph...a couple of seconds? The only photographs that I really study were taken by my favorite photographer George Tice. And he used a 8x10 view camera. No Nikon or Canon camera can offer that kind of detail. The last camera I bought was a Nikon D500. Why? Because I'm 63 and might drop dead at any time...just wanted one last toy to play with.
Now that's looking on the bright side, Robert ;)
The problem for the 5D is not the D850, which has a sensor with very tight pixel pitch, in the "problematic area" (well under 5μm), with all challenges that come with it, requires stabilized lenses more than often and suffers from diffraction already at f/11. Canon's problem is the D810, which has practically the same dynamic range with the D850, exceptional image quality and beats the 5D on the same points for $500 less.
But Canon has the more friendly/quick menus which ensure less screwed up shots, and a 24-70 which is better than Nikons and doesn't need stabilization at 30mp with half the speed of the D850. And better customer service. So, it would be nice to merge these companies I guess... :-)
That's exactly the point I make in part 2, actually.
Used D810 sell for around $1600-1700 these days. That's much more than $500 difference. And I have no problems shooting with D850 without stabilized lenses. Needing stabilized lenses is a pure myth.
What metering mode did you use with the D850? My guess is the sharpness on the first set of photos is down to the lens more than anything, The D850 does not have a low pass filter so that should help with the sharpness compared to the Canon (if I remember correctly).
Nikon has always had a much greener tint to their lenses, with the Canon being redder. Personally I would say that often the Nikon is a little too green and the Canon a little too red but that is a personal thing.
Pretty much all manufacturers have had an advantage over Canon when it comes to dynamic ranges. The D850 has about the same dynamic range as the D810 but generally the D750 probably has the best dynamic range for a Nikon.
I think it was center weighted on both cameras. I agree regarding the variation in lens sharpness, as theoretically the Nikon should produce sharper images. This comparison shows, however, that there are more factors at play than just raw resolution.
It might be that matrix metering may have been better for the test shots with the Nikon. From the looks of it, the camera is over exposing for the dark areas and there is a good chance, it wouldn't have done this using matrix metering. Nikon's metering can be a bit finicky and takes time to get used to but is very good when you have experience with it.
The dynamic range on the d810 and d850 is far better than any other FF camera because it has ISO64. That’s why it is also better than the dr of the d750.
I am pretty sure that 'Photons to Photo's must have re-tested the D850 since I last checked the page because the D810 was slightly ahead of the D850 and the D750 was quite a bit ahead when it came to dynamic range. But looking results now, are very different.
At 64 ISO the D850 and D810 are better than the D750 but the D750 beats the D850 between 100 ISO and 320 ISO before the D850 again goes very slightly higher but then they even out and are very similar. With the D810 apart from ISO64 the D750 does better, at all other ISO's.
What also is noticeably is how much better the Sony A7Rmk3 is the the D850, even the at ISO100 the Sony has a higher dynamic range than the D850 at ISO64.
Of course Sony is using the same sensor as they had in the A7Rmk2, which again does very well compared to the D850 at most ISO's.
Of course the dynamic range is only one part of the test and in other areas I much prefer Nikon sensors, particularly colour balance, though I can't say that I have seen too many A7Rmk3 images, so that may well have been improved as well.
I didn’t think the d850 had pixel shift?
You're right. I was muddling in an a7R3 spec.
D850 shooter. Excellent review!
Glad to hear it, since I'm a Nikon novice.
I think we have reached som sort of roof regarding the IQ we need. My photography is only limited by my skill and I know my 5Div is up to any task and same goes for the new D850. ( it´s a good thing I am far from done collecting lenses :)
Most modern cameras do pretty much everything a person needs!
As a Canon fan, from all the info I've seen to date I have to admit that the D850 is probably at the top of the full frame heap. And when it comes to a crop sensor the D500 is right in there also. C'mon Canon, time to up your game, possibly with a 7D Mk III for starters?
I'm hoping that the 7D Mark III is a special camera for sure, and yes, I do think the D850 probably has best feature set at the moment, though it's not a huge margin (as this test shows). There are a number of things that the Canon does better.
Dustin, your reviews are always very informative and detailed. What I appreciate is that you resist the urge to quickly bash the "less new" model of and fall all over the "new kid on the block". One gets weary of what starts to come across as shilling for everything NEW. You don't do that and IMO, tend to be quite even-handed in the reviews. Thanks
I do my best. We all have biases, but I try to suppress mine. I thought I would end wanting this lens, and while I would love to own it, I'm probably not desperate enough to do something about it.
Dustin Abbott Dustin Abbott - thanks and lately I’ve seen some reviewers start to simply push Nikon this, Sony that (“best ever”, “game changer”...yada yada yada)...to such an extreme that they give Canon a passing mention in the form of a few Rebel Series bodies... seems a bit too much shilling for the “new kids”. Admittedly I hope Canon is paying attention in that there’s a few things they could improve. I don’t do video work so personally all this 4K chatter is just “noise”.
@DustinAbbot
One other thing if I may ask... given your experience w/ Canon and the recent developments around Nikon (I eliminate Sony from MY consideration as the ergonomics just don't work for ME swinging 400mm glass at airshows on 650 mph fighter jets)... where do you think the brand is going. I've shot the 6D for almost 4 years and love its IQ, and great menu system... and... I just got the 5DM4 very recently (after renting and testing for a weekend at an airshow). The "review media complex" on UA-cam is having a field day jumping all over the D850 and pretty much writing off Canon.
I'm not too concerned about Canon, to be honest. Their market share is growing, not shrinking.
How confident are you that canon iso 100 and nikon iso 64 are that far apart?
I am not a pro (requiring that extra inch) and so I am perfectly happy with 5DMIV. It ticks all my boxes. Nice video though
It's a great camera - one that I use all the time.
I’m a wedding photog and have two 5D3’s. i’ll be upgrading one of them to the Mk IV. I was jealous of the D850, however this video has comforted me a bit lol.
LOL. I didn't realize that I was comforting Canon shooters and offending Nikon shooters. I have the Nikon winning and people are still mad :)
Which just goes to show the sad state of canon. When you buy a brand new canon and its only a couple years behind everything else out, then you're happy.
Rubi Doo difference is I rely more on skill as a photographer, as opposed to having to have the latest tech to save my ass. But yes it is comforting that a sensor a coupe years newer doesn’t drastically outperform my current one lol.
Love the canon fanbois and their skill, you can always count on them.
I said this yesterday in this very same thread.
" I am willing to bet there will page after page of "if you expose right you dont need a better sensor" ie: if you are a bad photographer shoot Nikon, if you are are great (in your own mind) shoot Canon"
The D810 sensor that was 2 years old out performed the 5dIV sensor the day it was released. But dont worry in 3 to 4 more years canon will come out with a camera the will almost outperform the 3 to 4 year old D850. Just as long as it doesnt compete against canons other cameras, if it does they will gimp the crap out of it just like they did the 6D2 and 5d4.
Rubi Doo I saw fan boi and stopped reading. I only have time for meaningful discussion. Not my brand is better than yours lol. The food that you put in your stomach doesn’t make me crap. In other words I could truly care less what gear people use. That’s the problem with photography nowadays and exposes you as a novice. You probably have never even shot film before. It’s usually you new digital only guys who have pissing wars over brands. Grow up lol.
I'm going to point out that in the photo comparisons where you give the canon better "punch" I think you are really missing just what the image from the nikon is doing. To me what I'm seeing is a much better range in the dark areas and a much more accurate representation of the subtleties of the range in the Nikon. Also I think the Nikon is much more accurate to being a correct exposure where the canon is slightly underexposing resulting in the background looking darker. This is translating to the "noise" in the black background that while the Nikon looks to be grainier, if you look a little more closely you can see similar noise in the canon but due to it being slightly underexposed and having less dynamic range, the noise in the black background on the canon is muted but still there. If you look at areas that are truly dark they look the same on both shots but the progression to the lighter areas definitely shows more granularity on the Nikon, which means there is more information to work with and if you were to correct so that both images looked the same in terms of exposure, you would find that the Nikon would look far better than the canon.
Of course Looking at it from the video we have some inherent issues with reproduction due to the format and compression of the video, but I still think my take on the images holds up even with that caveat.
Please do remember that my comments are based on viewing the original results (and a LOT of experience doing so). I stand by my comments.
I'm simply stating that there's a lot more data in the nikon shots and I see the blacks crushed comparatively on the canon, there's also more information in the highlights on the nikon. To my eye there looks to be about 1/3-1/2 stop difference in exposure and while the canon image looks better at the exposure (it's harder to discern differences in highlights that will show up when underexposed) on the closer inspection you can see that the blacks in the nikon are just as black (an overexposure would wash that out) and the highlights have more detail in the graduations.
We are talking minute variations here and if you were to drop the nikon image's exposure by 1/3-1/2 a stop or raise the canon's image by that same margin, I think that you would find that the nikon image was better once both were normalised.
But it's a subjective assessment and so it falls into the category of opinion, which means of course that there is no right answer, but it would have been interesting to see the histograms.
Why are you comparing .TIF (Nikon) to .DNG (Canon). (at 4:00)
That's not comparing apples with apples. You should at least also converted the Canon to .TIF.
With all due respect, that is apples to apples. I showed both the raw DNG file and also a downsampled TIF to show the two cameras at the same resolution level and to demonstrate how that downsampling does increase apparent resolution and diminish noise. Switching the Canon file to a TIF would not have changed anything.
l have the d850 lts amazing
It's a very nice camera.
This review made me rethink again from swiching to Sony or Nikon systems. Why other videos makes Canon 5DIV looks so bad? I can't see a huge difference.
Ummm, probably because I'm not trying to be sensational.
I'll be very interested to see you compare the Canon to the Sigma 85mm ART! Happy Christmas! :)
More controversy...oh great!
Considering D850 doesn't have AA filter, did you check if the lenses are fine tuned on the Nikon? They often look soft especially with 3rd party lenses.
This is Live View focused, so Fine Tune doesn't affect anything.
Ok, Sorry. Didn't know that. Then it could definitely be a lens variation or simply the Canon produces sharper images...
They say Canon's DR is bad. With the 5D4 it's actually pretty good, pretty on-par with other brands, but not quite as good as the top offerings of Nikon and Sony.
I don't know who "they" are, but people who have actually used these cameras know (or should know) better. In most scenarios all of these top cameras have plenty of dynamic range to get the job done.
No pixel shift on the 850 sorry Dustin.
Someone else just pointed that out - it must have been Focus Shift I saw in the menu.
Come on Dustin!!!! Stop teasing. Please finish your review of the Canon 85mm 1.4 IS. You've put out 2 unrelated vids since. Enough is enough. Give us the review we really want!!!!!
LOL. I'm working on an edit right now of an image quality segment.
But it's such a boring lens, with only 85cm MFD, strictly typical portrait lens, in my opinion there is nothing exciting about it.
Yes, It´s the most important one in years!
Ivan Kutsarov you must use your imagination. The rendering & low light capabilities of this lense coupled with IS is something that hasn't been done. I'm already dreaming of the possibilities.
Just another reason Canon is still King. People can argue about who has the best camera bodies all day but no one comes close to the Canon lense selection.
Let me start by saying I love your reviews and since both of these cameras are out of my price range I really don’t care which is better. The thing that bothers me about your review is that you are comparing the Canon image to a “downsized” Nikon image. Frankly this cripples the Nikon. If you are going to “downsize” why not “downsize” both to 20MP? Even better just compare straight-up or compare the Nikon to the 5DS? I think the “downsizing” makes the comparison suspect. This is one man’s opinion. Anyway, keep up the good work.
First of all, most of the comparisons are at native resolution (which you can easily tell because the Nikon image will look larger than the Canon image). Secondly, you don't understand how downsampling works. If anything, a downsampled image FAVORS the Nikon as it makes the image appear both higher resolution and with lower noise due to packing more pixels into a smaller space. This isn't a crop.
Dustin Abbott I see. Thanks for the clarification.
thanks for the review, but i have some points
1-you shot with deferent lenses on in tamron and the other nikon (70-200 tamron is better than nikon)
2- one shot is 114mm the other 120mm ( we all know some lenses are better at some focal length)
3- the exposure are deferent which will sho more or less noise at high iso
5- the composition is deferent the nikon closer to the edge which will be softer
i downloaded to images from dpreview.com from both cameras, yes iso is better on canon but the nikon is by far sharper than canon even sharper than canon 5d mark Rs
fsahouri Actually it is the Tamron 70-200 G2 on both cameras - the Nikon just records EXIF differently. There is a big gap between 100 and 135mm on the dial - I tried to get the same framing (which I basically achieved). There is no difference in these lenses in the 6mm difference (give me break!). The exposure, if anything, would favour the Nikon (and is the result of the difference in the Nikon’s metering system). The composition is the exact same, with both cameras mounted on the same tripod from the same position. The Nikon has more pixels, which is why the image often looks larger. There is no conspiracy here. Think what you want, but I have presented the data with no intent of bias for either camera
Dustin Abbott i know you didn’t intend to do that i always watch your reviews and i trust you but sometimes we do mistakes, please download the dpreview.com images why they had the d850 much sharper it wasn’t even close, watch your video again the framing is deferent, again if there is a mistake i know you didn’t intend to do it , all respect for you, i still love your reviews
Dustin Abbott ok i just saw the dxomark sharpness profile and compared the tamron lens on both d810 not d50 and canon 5d mark 5 at 2.8 on both cameras the center is sharper on nikon by little but the canon is much sharper at borders and corners, this deference will disappear at f 5.6 , so its the lens
This test was really not about sharpness anyway (as I said in the test); lens sample variation can explain sharpness differences. I would have had to use the identical lens on both cameras, which is difficult to do.
WRONG: The D850 has no pixel shift. That's the A7R Mark III. That's the A7R III's answer to ISO 64 on the D850.
Others have pointed that out. It must have been Focus Shift I saw in the menu
Hmmm. I don't know why this is the only video where the images from the 5dM4 appeared sharper than the Nikon D850. All comparisons on youtube ( Tony Northrup's, thecamerastoretv, etc.) including the image comparison tool on dpreview.c0m showed/shows that the Nikon D850 produces visibly sharper images than the 5dm4. Even the older Sony A7rii and the Nikon D810 output sharper images.. I even read on dpreview that a Canon guy borrowed his friend's Nikon D800E and he said the Nikon produced sharper images compared to his 5dm4 but he didn't like the color from the D800E. So I think something went wrong with your testing lol. It must be the lens you used,etc. On the color side of things, I prefer the 5dm4's images on your first test scene but on the landscape, I liked the D850's. I think the blue color is too strong on the 5dm4..
The first test really wasn't about sharpness (as I said), as it could be the lens. I used the same lens make (Tamron 70-200 G2) on both cameras, but not the same lens. I do believe that the Nikon is capable of producing greater resolution, but this test shows that what matters most is still the glass you put in front of that great sensor!
Dustin, did you shoot the D850 in 14bit uncompressed? There is evidence that 14 bit uncompressed is still better image quality than 14 bit lossless compression PhotoMeike has the comparison here: ua-cam.com/video/JxoTx2QcUdM/v-deo.html
I believe that it was uncompressed, yes, though the camera has gone back to its owner now. I recorded separately to two cards.
if it was 14 bit uncompressed the raw file size would be in the 95mb range, if it was 14 bit lossless compression the raw file size would be in the 45mb range
Negan would say: "you gotta shave that shit"
Contrast and sharpness are two words that should not exit your mouth in such a comparison.
Active Shooter why?
@2:54 , The Image from the Nikon may have had some shake and the EXIF are not same as well.
Mirror lockup, six hundred dollar tripod, and 10 second time delay - there was no camera shake. The EXIF is different because of two different base ISO settings (64 vs 100). No conspiracy here.
But When you downscale the Pictures from 45 megapixels to 30 megapixels, are you not downsizing the pixels data that was captured at the frame of 45 mp, I know the standardization to 30 mp but I have heard the Nikon D850 produces better image quality at every ISO level when compared at 45 mp itself.
I just showed you the evidence. The comparison you reference is at 47 MP. If I downsample the image, it actually gives an advantage to the Nikon, as it packs more pixels (and thus more apparent sharpness) into a smaller area. That's why I showed both the native resolution and the downsampled option.
its good But could you also please share me some samples without downscaling, maybe a drive link to the files at 100 ISO and on ISO 3200 if you have captured it. I surely trust your review . Could We expect the comparison between the Sony A7R3 and Canon 5D iV ? Thanks
Most of the samples you ask for are shown in this review, and no, I'm not going to go to the trouble of sending you files because you doubt my process.
My conclusion is if you can expose properly it basically doesn't matter to go with Canon or Nikon but if you cant expose properly get a Nikon.
LOL. Let's just say if you REAALY can't expose properly, as both cameras give more latitude than most people should need!
Yeah sensor on 5D is really good. I was hoping to see the same thing with 6D...
Hey @Dustin Abbott: Just to clarify, what 70-200 lens are you using on the Nikon? Is it the Tamron G2 as well? I can't tell from the Lightroom data onscreen.
They are both the Tamron 70-200 G2.
it's not just about hitting exposure correct , but having the ability to recover highlights and shadows in uneven lighting situations.
Nikon, for all their recent failures, has definitely hit it out of the park with the d500 and now again with the d850. But if they or Canon is to stay in the game long term they need to go mirrorless.
I don't think I agree with that, though I do think both Canon and Nikon need to up their game in the mirrorless department with a good full frame mirrorless body. There are strengths and weaknesses to mirrorless vs DSLR, and I've yet to use a mirrorless body that rivaled a DSLR for ergonomics or for focus tracking (though I'm hoping the new Sony a7R3 is close!)
Oh, I agree on the ergonomics, current mirrorless options mounted to a lens like a 70-200 is bad. I don’t want Nikon to merely copy what is being produced now but to innovate. A camera about the size of the d750 with the mirror removed and the sensor distance from the mount to stay the same so all previous lenses will work with no adapter. It’s only my opinion, but I think that would leapfrog them ahead if the competition and be a huge seller.
That flange distance spacing is going to be a challenge to keep existing lenses usable without an adapter. I haven't seen it done yet.
Innovation! Thanks for your great reviews, I really enjoy them.
Here's hoping. I think that if Canon or Nikon introduced a new mount for FF mirrorless they would get some serious backlash.
The Nikon looks front focused on the metal rings instead of the black aperture notches. You should also use the same settings once you pass ISO 64; you are buying into an ecosystem not a camera or lens. If you want a camera to camera review, get a M or other mount so you can use the same lens. This could all be attributed to lens transmission and you wouldn't be able to tell (I think that may be useful to know about different systems but doesn't tell you about the camera). Please shoot them both at f5.6 or f8. Shooting 2 lenses, especially wide open, just adds a lot more variables IIMO. Thanks for the review.
I tried to be as fair as possible to both systems. Perhaps a comparison like you desire exists out there.
Hello Dustin. I am by no means trying to say you were wrong or misleading in your analysis. It may be possible that you were just using the tools available to you at the time. I was just offering my opinions on the topic. Personally, I think that both of these cameras are so similar, there is no "bad" option.
That's a point I make in part 2. Yes, it's my job to evaluate the differences between cameras, but the reality is that they are all good these days, and Dxxx and 5Dxxx and A7Rxx all pretty special.
Well then... you should PUSH DOWN THE NIKON IN POST TO MAKE THEM EQUALLY BRIGHT!
A good review - the Nikon should nail the Canon completely - two reasons 1. Nikon is newer 2. Nikons make or break camera whereas Canon sales continue to climb so Nikon threw in the works - Canon have no need to do the same so simply don't.
Those are solid points, though I think what has happened to Nikon is evidence that Canon shouldn't get complacent.
Good review, and I was really surprised by how well the 5Dmk4 did. For the most part I think it had the edge, really surprising. Now do Sony r3 :) I've already bought it, so it really doesn't do any difference for me, but it would just be interesting to see how it stacked up against the Nikon and Canon.
I will be doing the Sony a7R3, as I intend to most likely add one to my personal kit.
Sounds good Dustin. Think you will be happy with it. Too bad you're way over in Canada, I could have lent you my stuff. I went all in for 24-70 and 70-200 GM lenses as well. Also got the 90 G macro. To me everyting seems rather awesome, but my basis for comparison is rather weak unfortunately.
Sounds like you've got a killer kit!
For the $ it really should be as well :) Happy to say that I've also got the "cheap" Fe 85mm 1.8, and I do really like the images that produces as well, but as I said; my experience with other kit is limited. And no experience in this top-of-the-line price range, so I would definitely enjoy your unbiased review of the Sony stuff and also the comparison to top nocth Canon lenses. I do particullary like your pixel peeping and 1 to 1 comparison, just studying details and commenting on what you see and also what you're looking for.