Did Dune Part 2 Stick The Landing?
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- Timothée Chalamet and Zendaya return to Arrakis to finish Denis Villeneuve's take on Dune by Frank Herbert. Did part two stick as close to the book as part one?
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I could imagine Chani's antagonistic approach to this messia-thing is to hint more explicitly that Paul's story is a criticism of chosen ones rather than another example for this kind of story - exspecially if they don't get a sequel.
That's obviously what it is
Yup one of big major themes in book was beware charismatic leaders which is also why Dune Messiah was written as people didn't get it based on Dune.
Gotta have that setup for audiences who have grown overly accustomed to the narratives found in superhero films! Oh centrist Disney, where would we be without you?
came to comment similar to this. Yep! 💯 this is it.
Well, and it gives her character some real individual opinions. She basically just agrees blindly with Paul in the book.
Alia not being born feels like a better move than trying to have a baby/toddler feel like an adult. On the page it’s fine but visually, I expect it’d look a little too close to Renesmee in the twilight movies than anything as badass as we might think it is.
Not to mention that getting a child actor within that particular age range to perform the material wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park.
The simple solution to that is Paul's campaign takes a couple of years longer so she's five or six. Plus, it worked in Lynches version without any problem and in the TV show show DV is just 100% wrong on his take and clearly doesn't like the book as much as he claims. I mean, he likes it, but he's smarter than Herbert and knows better... ;)
This is exactly what i thought as well. We couldn't deal with another Renesmee. It works out better if they keep her unborn but speaking through Jessica. There will certainly be a larger time jump to Messiah so keeping Anya Taylor Joy as Alia is actually more clever
@@jonevansauthor A slightly older child could work in theory, but would still require one hell of a good actor on the part of a five year old, which in itself is an ask. I just don't think the voiceover thing that they did in the Lynch version would work as well with modern audiences. It works in Lynch's version because that movie already has high levels of camp so some of the sillier aspects to it are easier to accept.
But she IS so essencial to the Story, cutting her IS Like having Cut jessica or leto . . . . .without her there will BE so much context Missing for leto2 and ghanima,
Chani's changes in Part 2 actually add so much IMO. The dynamic where she clearly and sincerely loves Paul the man but comes to despise the messiah figure he becomes by the end of the film is deeply tragic.
From what I've read (right after the movie came out) most people agree with you. I'll disagree for an extremely childish and "me" reason. I really really loved Paul and Chani powering through everything together until the end in the books. Call me anything you want, I just did. So when I saw Chani leave at the end it broke my heart and surprisingly hurt more than I thought it would. It's now impossible to recreate their third book dynamic and the ending that book gave them. Yes you can partially do the same but if you've read the book you know which part I mean(trying to say what I mean without any spoilers is hard. damn). Well at least now the third one will be even worse for Paul, which better fits the point Frank Herbert was trying to make.
So yeah. While I understand why this change might be better for the story, I just can't bring myself to like it. Both movies are still 10/10 though lol.
@@serkanMKose I definitely see your point. This is probably the most reasonable "anti-Chani changes" take I've seen online.
Chani's altered role as someone who envisions a genuinely free and equal Fremen society, only to see her people willingly bend the knee to Paul who proclaims himself their duke, was a great narrative choice in my opinion.
Same, it also adds such a layer of tragedy to their relationship too. She obviously loves Paul as a man and an individual but despises what he becomes after he drinks the water of life. It's honestly Shakespearean.
That's another thing that changed in the movie though. Fremen society is not equal. There is a hierarchy and there are also gender differences.
They changed all this because they wanted the "oppressed brown people" to see more noble than the evil white colonizers.
And them she changes her mind and comes back to be his baby's momma.
@@kuorin9190 I do wonder how that will work in Messiah? I can see it either being more sentimental or....very dark...
@@seanbinkley7363 Or they made someone else be the baby's momma. Erasing Channin from the rest of the story. No matter what they shoot themselves in the foot l.
As someone who didn't read the books, I felt Chani's anti-religous sentiment was done pretty well. In the movie, Paul himself was against it and told her about all of the awful stuff that wold happen if he became the chosen one, only to then become the chosen one. Even if she wasn't already anti-religous, it'd be pretty hard to not see what was coming with all of the information he had already given her.
Paul being openly skeptical of his own messiahood (at least to the fremen publicly in the beginning) adds another layer too. On the one hand he clearly wants to use the fremen to get revenge on the Harkonnens (the same as Jessica) on the other he also does seem genuinely fearful of becoming this messiah figure to them because of the repercussions it brings. You as the viewer can't be 100% sure how much he's just playing the reluctant hero to seem more legitimate to skeptical fremen and how much he genuinely just wants to avoid his supposed destiny altogether.
Except in the book it's 100% clear he didn't want jihad, but it was the only way to give both he and the Fremen what they wanted. It also factors into a much larger plot point for the entire series.
@@derek96720exactly, the original story has a vast scope. Characters play roles in a broader picture, even Paul is just a (possible) messiah and not THE messiah.
@@derek96720And Leto took the "Do horrible things that lead to horrible outcomes in the short term to reach the best outcome in the long term" to extremes (with short term being millenia)
I'll note that Paul was definitely very reluctant to become the Messiah in the books as well, If memory serves there was one part where he briefly considered killing himself, his mother, and the entire Fremen troop he was with as that seemed the only way to prevent the Jihad and save the billions of lives it would take. Honestly the scene after he drank the Water of Life where he seemed to have completely forgotten all his qualms with it seemed kinda odd to me.
Using shields on Dune is bad idea, because it pisses off worms. That is why aircraft uses them, but land vehicles and infantry (unless they are in building or something) don't.
Also, shooting a shield with a lasgun has just as big a chance of killing the shooter.
Yeah, but that's a situation unique to Arrakis - everywhere else, people use shields constantly. That's why fighting on Arrakis is so different compared to the rest of the imperium.
@@RevanAlaire And obliterating the entire battlefield.
I 100% get that Jessica loved her children over all else, it’s WHY she manipulated everyone, in order to keep her children safe. Dennis portrays so much from his characters with simple glances, and you can tell every time Paul is in danger that Jessica is terrified because she doesn’t want him hurt, just like the box test in the first film terrified her.
Unless the Kid IS alia . . . .Jessica never ever Loved alia
@@arianewinter4266 Alia is the baby inside of her, Paul’s sister. We don’t get any hint that she doesn’t love Alia in the movie she’s always protective and checking in with her saying “she’s okay”
Part 2 made me keep thinking back to the first movie when Leto wants Jessica to promise to protect their son, not as his mother but as a Bene Gesserit. She leans into that hard and becomes such a manipulator that even Mohiam has to begrudgingly acknowledge how she played things to her family’s benefit.
That's also her face! Rebecca Fergusson can convey so much with just her face. She's a bit like Olivia Colman in that sense.
this film is really just the journey of one extremely dedicated boymom
As a fan of the book, I think the change with Chani does a good job of making the Fremen no longer a monoculture while more clearly establishing the themes of the book. We may never get Dune Messiah, so having someone actually say "white saviors ain't shit" is important
I didnt take Chani's departure to be over his Princess mariage ( there was some emotions on her face during that moment) but over his/thier future with his role as the Messiah and the Holy War with the rest of humanity that will surely destroy her people and will endanger Paul.
Agreed, it’s more that he is so willing to just do whatever it takes that drives her to disgust. And it’s made even more tragic because Paul knows eventually she’ll get over it. So cruel.
this was my immediate thought as well. she suddenly felt like the last same person in that room, who felt betrayed that he decided to become what he swore he wouldn't.
Yes! That’s why she didn’t kneel and returned to the desert
@@DoctorWu23Paul thinks she'll get over it I haven't read the books but I really don't see this Chani coming back to him (and don't want to) unless he somehow reverses course
@@cisalzlman perhaps we’ll see what DV has in mind but Paul is as close to all knowing as it gets at this point. He sees far into the future and knows basically everything. When he says she’ll come around he knows that she will.
I actually REALLY liked what they did with Chani as it sort of gave the Fremen more of their own agency/painted them more as individual people with varied beliefs and opinions on the whole Messiah thing. It also made the ending more emotionally devasating as Paul marches off to his Holy War and the last shot of the film is on Chani's face as she's alone, like I was in tears.
I agree that Chani's atheism gives Fremen more agency but that completely undone by the decision to have them completely capitulate to him inside of 9 months😬
@@beefleming5439There is sort of an in universe explanation for the Paul being able to sway the Fremen so easily. Most of the Fremen doubters/atheists were in the northern sietches, and Feyd Rautha exclusively targeted the northern sietches with his artillery. Which means the majority of the Fremen who would have questioned Paul were either killed or driven to fundamentalist extremism due to their homes and families being killed. Like in real life, extreme violence drives people into extreme ideologies.
Lady Jessica is such a good character in the books.
It definitely sets up Dune Messiah really well.
I don't mind the she isn't down with the whole profit situation but that loses. It's a bit odd after after the North encampment gets bombed. And she begs him to go south. It's like they don't about how if he blows up the spice fields it will posion everything and everyone will die.
Or that he doesn't day to her this might have to end with me in a political marriage.
The film was not subtle when it came to foreshadowing the future negative consequences of Paul's actions. From Hans Zimmer's score having ominous overtones to having Paul frequently wear a literal black cloak. I'm not complaining, it certainly sets the mood for the film and carries all the way to the end. Fingers crossed for the sequel.
Like you Dom, I also made a "Life of Brian" comparison but not the same scene. When my brother and I watched this in the early where Stilgar and the other believers talk about how Paul's "humility" proves he's "The One" quite a few people in the cinema started chuckling. I leaned over to my brother and half-whispered "Only the true Messiah denies his divinity!"
True but audiences who haven't read the books would complain about the subversions in Dune Messiah like readers initially did when that book came out if they don't see it coming, so the filmmakers were clearly trying to avoid that.
Yeah, that Stilgar one had the Life Of Brian vibes for me too.
@@Primaeros Honestly that made me enjoy the film more because I was laughing to myself thinking about Life of Brian.
The entire audience when i was watching shared that idea and everyone was trying to not laugh, so the room was filled with suppressed giggles as Stilgar announced the true Messiah would be too humble to admit he is the messiah :D
@@Diluculi1 "I'M NOT THE MESSIAH!!!"""
I also missed the hilarious in-book moment of Gaius losing her shit when she sees Alia for the first time
I plain Miss alia, I Love her dearly and she IS pretty essencial to the whole god damned Story, even Just for her own merit but without her there will BE so much Missing context for Leto and ghanima
It would be so hard to adapt that character from book one without her being both comical and uncomfortable for all the wrong reasons.
@@arianewinter4266
If you forget her cringey final line she was wonderfully effective and creepy in Dune84.
I think it's a mistake to leave her out.
This is Dune.
You shouldn't diminish the weird.
@@arianewinter4266 In this part of the story, what does she do that is essential?
Every essential thing you mentioned happens in the next movie, what does she need to do in this movie.
Kills a fat old man who has no one protecting him? Have another character with barely any screen time get freaked out about at thing that doesn't become a problem at all in this movie, a character who has to deliver lines about a completely different issue that do matter in this movie in the same scene?
@@arianewinter4266
"Get out of my head!"
Was that the line?
3:00
My only real issue with both movies is that they really don't go into Mentats and why these guy were so important.
The fact that Paul could become one and the fact that both the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood and the Mentat hate each other and the irony that Paul being able to be both in combination to being exposed to so much of the 'Spice Melange' was how he became the Kwisatz Haderach.
The fact that the Sisterhood was able to guess that they would need spice but not a super computer brain is just funny to me 😂
Totally agree with this but I would also include the navigators and the importance of interstellar travel and trade to the empire/humanity. No adaptation seems to have nailed the significance of the “reveal” to the characters at the end that the navigators are addicted to spice and require the spice to make space navigation possible, that is they are using precience and are essentially the male counterparts of the bene Gesserit. If I remember correctly even the emperor and reverend mother don’t know about this till near the end of the book. The significance of this is that the bene gesserit and the navigation guild essentially hold all real power from the shadows. The reason Paul is able to claim unchallenged power at the end is because he controls the spice and the water of life, and hence controls the bene gesserit and the navigation guild.
I didn't go in cold. I read the book (just Dune, though). However, I liked the change to Chani. All of the women Paul meets (outside the Bene Gesserit) seem to mildly support him. Having Chani understand how he's controlling the Fremen and give a voice to the problem with that gives her character more depth and strengthens the movie as a whole.
Not really. When he announces Irulan and Chani storms off like she hadn't planned that with him in the first place, just made her seem stupid.
@@jonevansauthor When, in the movie, did she plan that with him? I don't remember that scene. I seem to remember that from the book, but I don't remember Chani & Paul planning for him to marry Irulan in the movie.
she made him promise he would stay true to himself, but at the end of the film when everyone bows to him she's disgusted to see that he's broken that promise. it was like she was the only sane person left in the room.
100%
@@cboehm24 You're right. It's not. Paul doesn't bring Chani up to speed with his plan in DV's part 2.
As someone who didn't read the books, Chani walking out at the end made sense. They'd spent the film setting up Chani to be the lone of voice of reason against the tyranny of the system and the manipulation of her people and it worked pretty well to set her up as a protagonist going forward if they're straying from the books. I feel it also makes it more blatantly obvious to people who don't get it (because unfortunately it has to spoonfed to people now) the theme that Herbert was going for which is not to trust charismatic leaders. It draws a clear line that Paul has just become part of the system and isn't going the solution to the oppression. Like Michael Corleone becoming the head of the crime family and closing the door on his wife.
i agree, i read the first book when i watched the movie, and to me Chani walking out made perfect sense as well. the way this paul was portrayed definitely made it seem like he started taking the “i am the messiah and these people will follow” a little too seriously, and started making a lot of important choices completely on his own.
which does seem like a thing that Chani would object to, especially since she never liked the other houses and their politics to begin with. it would have seemed a little ridiculous if she blindly nodded along with everything Paul did and said, especially with how intense and destructive to the planet they portrayed the war.
If you read the books you'd maybe think otherwise. Literally made zero sense to me. She's supportive of Paul and even his strategic marriage to Irulan because... well because she's not a sassy brat in the book. Also, the movie just straight up cut out Leto, Chani's and Paul's first son.
@@stonaraptor8196 If in the book she's just Paul's loyal doormat then it's a meh character to me.
Plus, they’ve shortened the timespan to avoid creepy toddler Alia. Book Chani has been Paul’s wife by Fremen standards for several years when he becomes the Fremen messiah and marries Irulan. Also she never expresses concern over Paul’s cult. Movie Chani’s only been Paul’s girlfriend for a few months at most, and he’s spent that whole time assuring her “no babe I’m not gonna lead your people into a holy war I promise”. And then he does anyway and marries another woman.
@@stonaraptor8196 If opposing what Paul does makes her a sassy brat to you, then that may say more about you than anything else
Apparently, Thifur Howat was originally going to be in part 2 but all his scenes were cut since, as you rightly pointed out, Villeneuve wasn't interested in mentats and instead wanted to focus on the Bene Gesserit. Essentially, that poor actor got Sarumaned.
They did also explain why they could use ranged weapons in the desert: they couldn't use the shields because it would attract the worms. It was established in part 1 and early in part 2.
I remember seeing the actors name in the early promotional materials then it mysteriously vanished. Best guess is that after the film's release got delayed due to the strikes Villeneuve took a second pass at a final cut.
Also I think the books established that blasting a shield sets off the equivalent of a nuclear explosion. Why that's a design feature is beyond me.
@@benwasserman8223 I assume it’s a quirk of the technology
@@benwasserman8223 it's not a feature they put into the shields. It's a thing that just happens and makes shields really excellent for fighting because no-one is going to shoot a laser toward one. Use of atomics is completely taboo as well. As he said, shields and lasers are fundamental to why swords and the slow knife are necessary. But they still use pistols a bit, just not laser ones. Those are only good if someone isn't wearing a shield of course.
The worms can't get inside the shield wall as it's a big rock wall they can't pass under. Hence the question why the Harkonnens & Sardaukar wouldn't be using shields, and if they weren't, why the Fremen didn't laser or maula them. You wouldn't use the shield in the open desert for fear of attracting worms because it won't protect you from being swallowed. You can't use lasers on shields because it'll kill you too. But you can use shields anywhere there's rock to protect you from worms and you aren't worried a laser will be shot.
I'm okay with them changing Chani and cutting Thufir because in both cases, they changed the characters in order to draw out the themes of the book that would have been hard to communicate otherwise.
In the book, every Atreides character alive after the first third of the book and not named Paul or Jessica is there to illustrate something about Paul and the nature of what he's doing. Thufir lives so he can pitch the Baron on basically the same "desert power" plan he developed with the Atreites to use the Fremen to beat the Saurdaukar, but in the Harkonnen, it sounds much more like the cruel exploitation it always was and raises the question of how different the two houses really were. Gurney lives so he can appear at the end of the book as a figure from Paul's past so he can contrast new problematic messiah Paul with the noble boy introduced at the start of the story, and point out that this is a pretty negative change. The simple heroism of early Paul has been replaced with dark complexity.
In the movie, Chani is the one endeared to Paul as she first meets him, and she serves as a mouthpiece for the Fremen that isn't clouded by the prophecy. She raises the question of whether Paul's religious elevation is good for the Fremen or if it is a positive change in Paul, replacing a lot of Gurney's original function. Movie Gurney is mostly there to re-pitch Leto's desert power plan in the new environment where we empathize with Chani's skepticism and her view of Gurney as a suspicious foreigner. Both characters can communicate this in dialog with and around Paul, so we don't have to cut to the Harkonnen or go into wither of their thoughts. With Gurney handling the restatement of the plan and Chani providing the criticism of of new Paul and messianic leadership, there's nothing left thematically for Thufir to cover, so he's cut entirely.
I think it was a smart decision to establish Chani as a kind of audience POV character, something they did right from jump. Chani's "Who will our next oppressors be" monologue opened part 1, and her decision to walk away from Paul ends part 2, her question now answered. It emphasizes the darkness and tragedy of Paul's victory, which could easily have been lost in a sci-fi action blockbuster. It proved to me that the changes made were by a creative team that really understood Dune and prioritized the themes of the book over the details of the characters and plot. It's like the opposite of Watchmen, where they seemingly cloned the comic, but somehow reframed it all in a way that lost the point.
Yeah, movie Watchman is pretty funny. It seems to simp for Rorschach while at the same time reframing the narrative to actually make the message "maybe Adrian was right and his plan will work." Given that it's Snyder, that was probably unintentional.
A great summary. I think all the changes made were mostly great decisions to condense it to a movie format while still keeping the truly essential themes going. People often talk about things that are "missing" but that only makes sense if you view it as the book.
If you keep the movies as they are, what even happens if you add Thufir back in? Does he make the plot make more sense? Does the movie truly not make sense on its own without him?
I feel like this was probably always part of the plan anyway, Thufir only has like...maybe 4 scenes in the first film? In the film he's just simply not that important to this version of the story.
If would be completely different if the first part set him up to have this huge role later on but then he just didn't appear but it didn't. It'd be like if Gurney was just never mentioned again in part 2 for no reason when he's obviously important to Paul. Dudes practically his uncle where Thufir is more like a family friend.
@@mrcheesemunch And if we're being honest, mentats as a whole are cool as a worldbuilding detail but don't contribute much thematically beyond their existence as evidence of the heights humans have been taken in this world and their instrumentality within it. That and explaining how Paul is able to organize and process all the information he receives through prophecy. Also, differentiating Paul's mentat powers from Paul's bene gesserit/kwizatz haderach powers would be tedious and burns time.
It's a shame we've never gotten a good Thufir on screen, but on the bright side, the door isn't fully closed. He hasn't been killed on screen, so for all we know he's just off milking a cat somewhere.
I (someone who has not read the books) liked what they did with chani. It felt like the movie making sure we can see that this is Paul’s villain arc.
I also read her anger at the end as being not because Paul is marrying someone else, but because like this act represents Paul’s fall into power-hunger
Except that that's not who he is as a person. He's not power hungry, but rather somebody now trapped in a future that he didn't originally want. The director spent so much effort to change Chani into a brooding skeptic that he actually made Paul look like a sociopath, which he definitely isn't.
@@derek96720Nah, Paul is pretty villainous. That’s kinda the point.
@@derek96720 Well, the book goes as far as to tell us there are several other possible futures if he just leaves Arrakis and doesn't try to get his revenge. He embraces this path, despite knowing it leads to the holy war, and only THEN he gets stuck on this moving train. That's why the first movie ends with him interrupting his mother and saying: "My road leads into the desert, I can see it." Yes, he isn't mustache twirling evil and some things are inevitable, but his choices took us down this road.
@@coolioschoolio4359He is swept up by a wave of the future that he cannot stop. He is more complex than just calling him a villain. He continually fights the tide despite knowing he will not truly be able to turn it.
I have no idea what this Chani truly wants. The the books Chani was a woman of her culture. The kind of fervent and religious culture that would embrace jihad. They changed the complexity of Chani in the books into a modern American woman. “Freedom! ‘Murica!” They made her into Zendaya and lost the complexity of a woman that equally loves Paul as the man he is and what he means to the universe and being willing to share him with things greater than either of them. Or her fervent hope to change the face of Arakis to a paradise.
@@sallycinnamon5370 He’s complex, sure. But he is absolutely a villain. In Messiah he is compared to Genghis Kahn and Hitler. The reasoning is complicated, but the method is evil.
I’m going to be honest, did you watch the movie? Chani in the movie wants so much. She wants Paul to stay true to who he is. She wants the Fremen to be free from imperialist rule. She wants the Fremen to break away from the religious chains her people are trapped in. I’m not saying it’s better, but your argument seems like you didn’t like that they made her “strong” that she’s not head over heels obedient for Paul.
I loved how much they leaned into Jessica’s villainous aspects.
Also iirc in the books she didn’t really have a choice about taking the water of life, as it was the only way for the Fremen to accept them.
They make it pretty clear that she didn't have a choice in the movie as well. She seemed pretty relunctant at first. Stilgar baeically tells her outright that it's basically the only way she could pull her weight (and to help fulfill the Bene Jesserit prophecy), so it was either that or be killed and sucked dry of her water.
The old reverend mother was dying, so it was the only way to avoid losing her knowledge. But even the old reverend mother saw that it was a mistake to do it while pregnant. So it's pretty clear in the books that it was Jessica's ignoring this that set Alia up for her tragedy. If she literally had no choice, that would not be true.
@Cat_Woods in the book the old reverend mother helps Jessica comfort Alia despite this though. I feel like they could've definitely made the water of life scene a lot more trippy.
In the books her options are challenge Stillgar (since she defeated him in combat earlier), marry him, or join the sayyadina. She has an inner monologue moment about what being his stepdaughter would mean for Alia. Stillgar expresses a preference for the last option for political reasons. I liked that better (it shows them both as more savvy), but I think they made that change to boost the “is Paul the Mahdi or not” question
It was also very important for them to ensure she was understood as villainous. Villeneuve said he wanted to make it abundantly clear that Paul was not the hero or the messiah because people have been misinterpreting the book since it was released. To do that, it must be crystal clear that Paul's messianism is artificially created by his mother and the Bene Gesserit for personal gain.
Unfortunately, it seems people are still walking out of the movie thinking Paul is the hero, which just goes to show how bad media literacy is now.
Jessica never had that much agency in becoming a Reverend Mother. In the book she thought the Fremen quaint for using the same term. It came as a massive surprise to her at how powerful they were.
When it became clear that the timeline was getting compressed, it was easier to deal with the changes in Act 5, especially with Chani's arc. In the book, they may have been offscreen conversations, but she and Paul have had five years together and he's let her much more into his plans and thoughts about the future, but this early on? When they haven't even had a child yet? No wonder she's furious, especially when he had promised to hold fast to his values.
The same applies to the holy war kicking off - in the book, I got the impression that the edges were already getting frayed on House Corrino's leadership, whereas there's no way the other houses in the film would allow a change in power when it's been less than a year since the Arrakis massacre.
Literally required one sentence in the tent when they're wasting time with a sex scene, where she tells him to secure a political marriage like his father did. Remember, they had the choice over what to waste time on such as twenty minutes of worm riding obscured by sand, or lots of longs walks and meaningful stares we didn't need.
@@jonevansauthor you think one conversation would have prevented her outrage at him finally choosing to use the prophecy to brainwash everyone around her? please
@@jonevansauthor it would be bizarre for this version of chani to ask him that in the first place
In the books a lot of this conflict of Paul the person and Paul the messiah happens in Paul's head (Herbert looooves him his long internal monologues). That would obviously not work on screen so they needed a way to externalise this conflict. It couldn''t have been with Stilgar, as he was to became the follower, and it couldn't have been Jessica, as she has her own plots and it is actually in line with her motivations to spread the missionaria protectiva and the Lissan al-Ghaib myth further, to protect herself and her children. This left Chani as the one to take over the role of Paul's conscience.
@@berlineczka I’m glad there’s someone in the comments who actually understands how screenplay writing works
SPOILERS for Dune: Messiah and a little of Children of Dune
So I actually kinda like what they did with Chani. Dune is supposed to be a story about why “The chosen one” would be bad and that these people would really be more akin to cult leaders then heroes. People didn’t understand this in the original book so Herbert made Dune Messiah to explicitly say that. Paul is basically a homeless man by the third book because he loses everything in Messiah. Having Chani be there for the audience to see Paul’s descent makes it more clear that Paul is will go down a dark path. Now I do think that removing both Thufir and Alia is a bad decision and especially Alia will make adapting future book more challenging, but I do think having Chani be against Paul becoming the emperor and Messiah will make Dune Messiah feel a little more well built up.
To be fair Paul didn't lose everything, she chose to give up everything he had, including the life of Chani, his vision and ultimatly his life because he just couldn't live with himself for the decisions he would yet have to do so he could garantee an eternity of prosperity for the human race. The gift of prescience would make it impossible for him to loose anything if he so chose after all what are a few lifes here and there in the course of thousands of years of history he would never experience anyways if he could not loose those things.
To me that is the greatest lesson in Frank Herberts Dune saga, the true cost of being a hero is monstrous and the illusion of a bright future cant compensate for the crimes of today, that is why paul goes alone into the desert at the end, he accepts that just as he took 61 billion lifes in his jihad he too should pay the price of a bright future and once everything else is set in motion and it is his time to add to the numbers he just lifts a middle fingers to prescience and being an ubermanch and chooses his own ending amidst the sands he came to love.
I didn't like the change because it made it feel like the movie was beating us over the head with the theme. I prefer the way the books draws us into the madness and only after it's all over do we realize exactly what's happened. I'm not sure how Dune Messiah is going to start if Paul and Chani aren't on speaking terms. Their love for each other is just about the only genuine relationship in the series. Paul is a monster, but his love for her and the Fremen was absolutely sincere.
In Movie #3 Paul will now have to go full-on wooing to get Chani back at the expense of his new duties as a Fremen Messiah and DeFacto Emperor of the Known Universe.
I agree. I also think Chani is way more of an actual three dimensional character compared to her previous film (and even book) counterparts. In all the other renditions, she's kind of just Paul's willing companion, which isn't really bad per se. She's just not particularly interesting in that she primarily serves as just his love interest. Having her be a person in her own right with thoughts and beliefs and having her be skeptical and critical of Paul's actions makes their relationship way more interesting IMO. She deeply loves Paul the man but despises the messiah figure he becomes. It adds so much.
@@seanbinkley7363yes open disrespect, two faced support and bratty tantrums add so much character depth. Keep slaying queen chani 💅
The change to channi character was mentioned to be a more clearer on Frank Herbert criticism on chosen one stories and considering on how media literacy is this day and age it’s probably for the best.
I still feel like it's more signposting than necessary. I think you have to be a pretty dumb person not to get that the jihad is a bad thing. If Billions of people dying doesn't spell that out, then I dunno.
@@BobtheX bro people in my theater were clapping at the end of the movie when the holy war started 😬
@@BobtheXI mean he literally wrote dune messiah because people were super on board with Paul going to war with the whole galaxy
I don’t think media literacy has gotten much worse. People were earnestly rooting for Paul when Dune came out, and many felt betrayed by Messiah pulling the rug from under them.
Nowadays bad takes just get amplified to the top.
@@uselesscamel5360strongly dusagree about media literacy. The vast majority of the public has very poor media literacy. They need things spelled out fir them. If it's not stated explicitly, a ton of people just aren't going to get it. It goes hand in hand with the decline in reading comprehension. As someone with family in education, i can tell you for a fact that reading comprehension and media literacy in general is either not taught at all or taught very poorly. According to my teaching family members, a lot of kids in school these days don't understand what they're reading beyond the most superficial level. I think a lot of it might also have to do with the decline in attention spans.
The shield/laser thing still definitely exists in the films, even if it's not stated outright. One of the Harkonnen soldiers in the beginning orders his people not to turn on their shields when he realizes they're being fired at with a laser weapon in reference to this.
Meanwhile in part 1 they are shooting laser rifle into a clearly shielded ornithopther piloted by Duncan.
I think it’s interesting how the one person Paul keeps seeing in his dreams is the one who ends up not believing in him. I think that’s why Paul fell in love with Chani specifically. She loved him for himself and not the messiah. If she was the same as the other Fremen she wouldn’t have stuck out as much and would just be another generic Fremen chick to Paul. I loved the changes Denis made. It’s poetically tragic.
Not a book reader: Great point. I felt Chani's character worked, and I was surprised to find out this is not part of the original story but a change. Seeing as Chani's been seeing all his nightmares and inner struggles with trying to avoid becoming the prophecy, I can see why she's angry when he finally bites the bullet to become the messiah. Paul's quite petulant in the front of the Emperor to try to force him to bow to Paul, she'd probably find that pathetic instead of working for the greater good of the Fremen.
Chani also has only known him within nine months, and regardless of his almost complete adoption of the Fremen ways, Paul explicitly confronts in an earlier tent scene that she doesn't trust him, and Chani confirms it saying, "Because you're a foreigner" to which Paul denies he's a foreigner. Chani feels that the best thing for Fremen is to trust in their ways, not in an outsider. In Chani's mind, Paul proves to be an outsider acting for his own gain instead of considering the needs of her people by the end of part 2.
(Btw, I don't find Paul's ability to become Fremen within nine months to be unrealistic. It's rare, but such changes in people can happen. The adoption of the Fremen as one of their own and as a Messiah figure is a little more questionable, but still within the realms of possiblity considering the engineered prophecies.)
Dominic. They were CGI because shots on Geidi Prime were filmed in Infra-red camera. Therefore to make their skin appear like Atreide’s and not Harlonnen they had to add color with CGI
I think a murderous toddler could have made the film a little too goofy for most audiences to handle so I understand why they didn't do a time skip and add in Alia.
Chani didn't seem so angry about Paul's choice to marry Irulan so much as disgusted that he suddenly began using the prophecy to make himself into a legend and use the Fremen for his own gain, when he swore he wouldn't. when everyone else bowed to him, it was like she was the only sane person left around Paul.
. . . . .but Alia IS importent, she IS absolutely crucial to Show WHO Jessica IS, and AS contrast to Leto and ghanima
I don't think the same director will be doing those. Also, personally, I hope they aren't done at all. Very unfortunate, I like knowing who she was. And it serves as a smaller version of the wider picture in the books too.@@arianewinter4266
Not to mention being the villain for Children of Dune... she's one of the most tragic characters in the whole series because she never had a chance due to Jessica's actions, and Jessica screwed her over even after birth by ignoring her and heading back to Calidan.
The bit with Alia in the 1984 film is very goofy so I wasn't surprised they got rid of it as it would be very out of place in the tone of this film.
@@jamesatkinsonja
I thought it worked quite well in Dune84.
I suppose it depends how much you can get into the idea of a murderous toddler.
I was surprised there was no inclusion of the Spacing Guild whatsoever. Makes the whole spice mining thing seem inconsequential if you weren't already familiar with the story.
This was the big exclusion I noticed. The spacing guild is defacto the most powerful organization in the Dune universe and it is their reliance on spice that makes Paul's actions so detrimental to their way of life. Not even touched in this movie.
The Guild Navigators don't show up until _Dune Messiah_ so I think they'll probably play a bigger role in the third film. I think they were excluded from the first two movies to avoid overcomplicating the story.
Does it? You already know that the universe is dependent on spice. It’s easy to see that disrupting spice production in any way would piss a ton of people off
@@hotelmario510I've only seen the first film but was little disappointed they skip out the journey to Arrakis the importance of spice to the universe enabling guild navigators to traverse through space vast distances. So some lore from the books you would think is integral is glossed over because DV..reasons.
@@uselesscamel5360 Eh. I don't know. I never had the feeling like spice actually was well explained in Dune 1 or Dune 2. It isn't just "space fuel" for giant ships. It does expand a humans mind, it prolonges life, fortified health and without it, a lot of particularly wealthy and powerfull individuals had quite some issues. So it isn't just like the "oil" of our time or something like that. But in the movie it feels more like an after thought.
I'm usually a quasi-purist when it comes to most adaptations, but in the end I recognize that so long as the themes of the book are held to first, changes can be added to help with medium change and time restrictions.
And... I actually kind of really REALLY like the changes they made with Chani. I think it helped to deliver home the story's (if not series') main lesson in how religion can be used to manipulate the masses by having a character close to what was going on outright reject what was going on. Yes, in the book and in the movie, Paul was mostly that voice, until he is forced to go along with it; however I thought having Chani hold to that rejections helped strengthen it as the topper to the film.
As for Leto the Second the First not being present... I don't think it affects much. I could had sworn that most of the later books kinda forgot he existed from time to time as well. The character was really just there to make Paul more mad and sad. For someone already on a revenge kick, it wasn't needed. That said, I do wonder what a new version of Dune Messiah will do to get the twins into the story line. Is Chani already pregnant? Will their relationship restarting be a new plot line? Will the Princess now be the target of a plan (by someone else) to prevent her from giving birth? Etc.
Oddly enough, as much as I have hated "what if" retellings of late (I'm looking at you Scott Pilgrim and Final Fantasy VII or anything pulling a frickin' Kelvin Timeline), I'm actually highly curious to see where this one ends up going since 95% of the story is still there marching along, but there is some BIG things missing preventing the overall story's plot from going the same way.
Chani actually feels like a more realistic character in the films than the book imo
This is why I'm not entirely on board with the ending. Now I love that Chani was made into a sceptic that didn't believe in the prophecy and rightly pointing out that it's another way for the Fremen to be exploited. My problem with the ending is that makes Dune Messiah kinda difficult to do regarding Paul and Chani's relationship as that's the emotional core of Messiah. Plus, how will the twins be born. Will the twins still be born? Will Irulan become the mother? I hope not. Very curious at what they're going to do next.
Do you watch Tale Foundry? I just have to ask because his latest video says almost the exact same thing as your first paragraph.
Same here. I finished my current read of the book yesterday and honestly missed some of the changes from the movie. Yes, there's a few smaller details they glosses over, and the importance of the guild is being moved to part three, but overall I think the changes helped with the story.
I think this makes for a more interesting dynamic in Messiah. Not only does Paul not have an heir, it’s because he’s still searching for his one true love Chani out in the desert years later, and meanwhile denying Irulan any shred of affection. It makes the plotting and decisions a lot thicker and I like that. There’s plenty of time in Messiah (which is a short but thick plot) to expand on the elements that are slept on, like Mentats and the Guild. I wouldn’t worry too much. I think Denis has a solid vision for adapting Messiah and I hope he sticks to just finishing Paul’s story well with tragedy instead of trying to adapt Leto II (who is more of a character concept even in writing than something that could easily be visually adapted).
My experience watching this movie is how I imagine fans of the LOTR books felt watching the Peter Jackson Trilogy.
Regardless of the adaptational changes I do really appreciate this movie and have no doubt that Villeneuve and his team do genuinely love the material they were adapting.
Absolutely! Even the changes themselves show a deep understanding of the source material. I also really loved how they included "The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience" line from the Appendices.
I find Feyd-Rautha being Gom-Jabbar-tested very interesting. Idk to what extent this is supported by the actual text or if I just headcanoned this, but since Jessica's child was supposed to be a girl and Feyd-Rautha was mentioned as being part of the plans for the Kwisatz Haderach, I gathered that the original plan was to marry Fem!Paul and Feyd-Rautha so that their son would become the Kwisatz Haderach
Also I find the implication that Feyd-Rautha passed the Gom Jabbar test because he's into that fucking hilarious
Gom Jabbar: The most horrible pain known to makind.
Feyd: Aaaah so this is foreplay?
While hilarious I think it made the Bene Geserit look less prepared, I mean if you test is to prove you are human and can control yourself to ANY response how then Fayd-Rautah pass by been into it? It would've proved that he was in fact NOT in control there for an animal and there for killed. That part didn't make sense to me, but by that point the movie had changed the lore so much that I was like "yeah been kinki is how you past, sure, Paul is vanilla AF I guess"
@@per-c8229 Well, disregarding that the Gom Jabbar test is generally just kinda eugenicist bullshit, you're not going to find any animal that genuinely enjoys pain. It is very much a human attribute
I didn't care about the box of pain to be honest but the entire bit on Geidi Prime could have been better spent on the actual plot of the book which is far better and been done in far less time and been more illustrative of why the Baron likes Feyd so much (because he tries to take power, not just because he's keen to take him to bed).
I doubt they tested him with the Gom Jabbar in the book because the BG thought of Feyd as essentially just breeding stock. Since they couldn't wed him to an Atreides female, Count Fenring's wife seduced him and used imprinter techniques to implant the control phrases into him. If he was anything special they probably wouldn't have tried, as that shit would never work on someone as powerful as Paul.
I've never read the books, so I'm in the group that went in cold.
I feel the changes to Chani's character were necessary, because there's a chance the audience would walk away thinking Paul and Jessica were righteous heroes when they're not.
Paul and Jessica manipulated the Fremen's beliefs to get revenge on the Harkonnens and the Emperor. There's a chance the audience would take that at face value when that wasn't Herbert's original intention (something Messiah makes more explicit).
If they do adapt Messiah (which it looks like they're gearing up to do), it could be Godfather 3 in space; all of Paul's crimes and mistakes come back to bite him.
We'll see how audiences respond to the messaging being that indigenous people are easily manipulated and religion can easily shape their entire primitive society to do whatever you wish. I get a feeling that the whole explanation that their religion is fake and manufactured by the space government to control their entire lives and make them naïve enough to accept a charismatic leader like Paul is not going to go well with audiences. It makes indigenous native people look extremely stupid and easily controlled. The fact that the religion turns them into violent, world destroying fanatics doesn't help either. Again, that is a shitstorm waiting to happen with audiences crying racism.
They make the brown people religious obsessed savages that kill people because their God says so. Oh boy, audiences are going to LOVE that.
If you've never read the books, I'm not sure what you base your opinion of how they destroyed her character and made her a weak minded fool to be honest?
Pretty sure herbert wanted to go full on making clear how terrible is in the second book anyways. It doesnt harm to have signalled it earlier
@@marocat4749it does, because that clarity isn't supposed to be there early on. His cult of personality DOES paint him as the hero. And Messiah shows us the aftereffects of that
@@jonevansauthor the original commentor didn't say that? All they said about Chani is that (based on what Dom describes) is thru feel the change was probably to show how neither Jessica nor Paul were actually "the good guys"...
I was wondering if the good Mr Noble would include a clip from Life Of Brian, given that John Cleese's "Only the Messiah would deny that he is the Messiah!" bit from that movie is played completely straight in Dune 2, and I was not disappointed!
I suspect that the changes regarding Paul and Chani's relationship and where they end up at the story's close were Denis Villeneuve trying to make up for (and I'd argue overcorrect on) Dune (1984) infamously playing Paul's arc as the Lisan al Gaib completely straight.
This is pure speculation, I know, but that's definitely the vibe I got: "No no, we know Paul's messiah arc is not a good thing! See, even Chani doesn't want to put up with him in this version!"
I think he's outright said that's more or less why he changed Chani.
Considering how many argue that, deep down, Paul really is still the hero in the end and everything needed to happen, that message is still getting lost on people anyway.
@@MrBazBakethe whole argument is: do the ends justify the means? Post messiah we’d probably say no, but then post god emperor we’ve come to see that probably yes they do, considering Leto knows that thousands of years of oppression is the only way for humanity to achieve free will and avoid extinction by some future threat.
Paul actually didn’t believe so, he was still animalistic and had human desire. When the reverend mother says an animal will gnaw of its own leg to escape, Paul literally does this letting his kid die so he can fulfill his plans. Very animal like. He comes to regret his actions and seeks penance in the desert.
It’s my understanding that unless you destroy the bene gesserit, the Kwisatz haderach was always coming, and the KH was always going to war with the current system, unless the bene gesserit could maneuver the KH to be of house Corrino, which it seemed like they didn’t account for. Leto was beyond the the KH, and recognized that he needed to take steps to actively prevent KHs from appearing
So I’d say the true threat is the bene gesserit, pushing for a lone individual to have complete control which corrupts. Leto basically pulled a thanos and used his KH powers to prevent KHs from ever occurring again
I don’t think it’s an overcorrection, I think it’s straight up just an improvement of Chani’s character.
Do you know how many planets and people will get deleted because of Paul? He's no hero at all. @@MrBazBake
I actually liked what they did with Chani. I really felt the heartbreak for her at the end. I've not read the books, though I am aware of it's story in some detail (thanks Quinn's Ideas) and I did watch the original 80's movie. But yeah, I didn't have a problem with the changes and I thought it was more satisfying for Paul to kill the Baron.
If I had a critique it would be that the bombshell that Jessica is the Baron's daughter didn't have weight to it, even though they tried to give it weight and the Alia on the beach scene.
As someone who has not read the book, I loved the final shots of Chani alone about to summon a worm to get out of there, devastated by Paul's literal and ideological treason. Combined with the music, I though it was a very powerful cinematic scene and I was moved by it.
Except there is no treason. He gave the Fremen exactly what they wanted. Even marrying Irulan is publicly a loveless, sexless marriage of political convenience only, and Chani is publicly acknowledged as Paul's only love.
They manufactured all this drama because they don't trust the audience with the original material.
@@derek96720 Well, sure, all fictional drama is manufactured, this one was for the film version and I liked it. It made the characters more human instead of just being ideas with feet.
@@fjgarcia3 I disagree. I think it makes the characters more like people from 21st century America/Europe, but they're not supposed to be. I think it's a weakness of modern audiences to not be able to understand characters that don't share their exact reactions to things.
Also, I'd say your point about all fictional drama being manufactured isn't really being made in good faith.
@@derek96720 The film has the events of the film leading to the Muad'Dib's Holly War' which as the Freemen are not involved in the 'Bene Gesserit' isn't in there benefit-they're pretty much are trading one war for another.
Big fan of Dune since I was 12 and I agree with pretty much everything you said except I like the change in Chani as her resentment toward the prophecy and Paul finally embracing it brings out the message of the danger of charismatic religious figures starkly. I missed that for so many years so I think the change in her character served the true intended spirit of the book.
yeah but with half a brain you don't need a character like chani making sure 100% even the last idiot got the message. Marvel brain. Spoon feeding soon won't be enough, people will need a feeding tube.
As someone who went in with zero to no prior knowledge outside of "Sandplanet with big worm", I ended up really loving the films because they played like a tragic romance overall. So I can totally get someone familiar with the source material maybe not liking Chani's departure from her book counterpart, but I loved her being defiant up until the end because it really makes the echo of certain lines so powerful, be it the notion that women and men are complete equals in Fremen to the idea that Paul's words, "she'll come to understand" so haunting. The first part opens on her and the second part ends with her, there's a deliberate attempt to make this story as much about her as it is here's people would-be oppressor. I love Dune so much, but especially the character Chani and I personally feel satisfied with the how the cliffhanger ending is because it plays like more of a tragic conclusion when you considering just how sure Paul is of everything at this point. If what he says comes to transpire as he seems to believe they are we know what happens and this is a great ending point. But knowing Hollywood and just how film audiences are, a more conclusive feeling third film might be the best choice.
I love that you used a clip from Life of Brian. I've never read the book as it sounds like things get too psychedelic in the later books for my taste. So, when Javier Bouden was like "only the Messiah would say he's not the Messiah", I laughed out loud in the theater, because it reminded me of Life of Brian.
I gotta disagree with you Dom one of the BEST changes from the book in my humble opinion is Chani. I hoped she wouldn't be such a doormat like in the books and Zendaya understood the assignment.
I loved that the more Paul bought into the messiah complex Chani saw those red flags and rode her giant sand worm away from that mess!
I hope for the sequel she doesn't easily forgive him for this. It would be great to show that his prescience isn't actually that solid. I think you could achieve this by having her already be pregnant with twins, and it also helps drive Paul's decisions in Messiah.
Hard agree. I didn’t mind Chani being different than the book, and I think this sets up a much more interesting version of Dune Messiah.
@@oscardiggs246 I'd like a version of Messiah where Paul was clearly a horrible person. Either he was always being manipulative, or the water of life wiped out his more genuine side. Having Chani plot to usurp his prophecy would be very interesting.
It's kind of gross that people see her character in the book as a doormat simply because she loves, understands, and supports her mate. She's not some idiot that's blind to everything going on with him and his cult of personality. She just doesn't have a problem with it.
But the movie director clearly didn't trust the audience to see a woman like that and not get offended.
@@derek96720... her 'mate' huh? Speaking of gross. You're not one of these people who unironically use woke as a pejorative are you?
You know the point of the book is messianic leaders are bad right? That is one of the main points of the books.
Good to see in the comments that I'm not the only one digging the changes to Chani's character.
The movie made her much more a three dimensional character than what she was in the book. And I appreciate how she was in a way the audience pov character to underline the themes of the story.
Honestly, I'm glad the movie cut out the war prize bride plotline. Dune is a series that already leans heavily to the "Noble Savage" trope and it would just highlight their "otherness" to the western audience. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't play any important part later anyway. The widow becomes snarky nanny for Alia and Paul's foster kids just...disapper. No one ever mentions them ever again. I don't think they even had names.)
Don't they all get murdered in the sadukha raid? They exist to show how Paul bassically doesn't care about human life anymore, being mildly upset that his friend and adopted children have all been murdered before he discards them from his mind.
@@JackdotC He doesn't have time to mourn them. The Sardaukar raid happens when the Emperor arrives on the planet, Paul is in coma because he took the water of life and when he awakes, the entire planet is under threat of global genocide.
A very, very good movie adaptation that manages to pull off a way bleaker ending than the novel or the 1984 adaptation. It was great.
It wasn't a bleak ending, people were happy and cheering lol
@@notfromhere8889so was Winston in 1984, doesn't make it not bleak. The audience is supposed to get the dramatic irony
@greg_mca9052 in 1984 the protagonist loses, he doesn't conquer the universe by beating pedophiles
Also, I had read the book before watching both parts. Chani's change is absolutely for the better. I take it that she is representative of the Fremen's core values: freedom. Self-reliance. Community. She and the schism of the Fremen give those people so much more agency. They're an actual people, and not just existing for Paul to take control of and use as his weapons. He came, assured Chani he wasn't a colonizer, and that turned out to be a lie. He ended up rendering a people who valued egalitarianism and their freedom to live as they deem fit, into servants of a duke, an emperor. He succeeded in conquering them and bringing them to heel where the empire had failed. Of course she would be devastated!
Paul also broke his promise. It's book-canon that Paul metaphorically dies when he drinks the water of life. Chani loved THAT Paul. Not the Lisan al Ghaib. He stopped being the person she loved, so she had no reason to stay. Plus, they did accomplish their mission. She fought for her people, and for Arrakis. Arrakis was freed, so what reason does she have to go on Holy Wars throughout the galaxy?
Also... Paul assured his mother that he had SEEN Chani "coming around". it was an offhand comment, but establishes something vital. The fact that Chani did NOT come around, is indicative to the audience that the Kwisatz Haderach's vision is not infallible. It has its blindspots. That will be important to his later character development.
Totally agree, especially the inaccurate Visions. Its incredible how this has been foreshadowed from the first one. Jamis wont teach Paul the Fremen Ways, he is killed.
When Paul has his first concrete visions of the future and the fighting in 1, theres a scene where he leads the Fremen against Sardauker from the front in Battle Armor. This exact same scene, with almost the same movements happen in 2, but its Chani doing it-it ends on the same frame of Chani/Paul looking at the camera in the middle of fighting, panting.
The Focus on the Religious Fremen Battlestandards during 2's Version of the Vision also makes me think wheter there was already a "Golden Path" for Paul to take before he drank the Water, where he never became the Mahdi.
Well this is something you're missing she is going to come around. Paul's visions are very long seeking and clear now. Which is why he eventually Kick all the hard stuff to his son In being the one that actually has to create the golden path.
Unless they massively change Messiah Chani *will* come around.
I like that someone is serving as vocal criticism of what Paul and Jessica are doing to the Fremen people, though I can see why having it be Chani can be jarring as a departure from her character in the book. But I think the movie did a good job of setting it up as her character from early on, so if you don't go in with an expectation of who Chani should be then I'm sure the change seems very natural.
The problem is that she is a character without a people. They insinuate that her northern Fremen people are not religious or believe in prophesy…but then as the Jihad begins she seems to be literally the only Fremen that doesn’t believe in it. Additionally her mother believed in prophesy we know and she from the sietch where Stilgar is Naib.
Her character makes literally 0 sense in the context of the movie.
As the Jihad begins she in literally the only Fremen that doesn’t kneel to the Messiah…it’s stupid.
I mean you can’t wear shields on the sand because it attracts the worms so the lasguns and rockets were lord accurate
Thats the thing about adaptions. They will never please everyone.
As a non reader, i thought it was a good film and experience. I enjoyed and would definitely recommend watching it
Same here and I went to see it with my sister and her bf who are Christians. They picked up on the religious symbolism meanwhile I was basically Chani of the group😅
I think it makes a lot of sense for fayd to be goven the gom jibbar, the bene gesserit tell jessica that the plan was for her daughter to be wed to a harkonnen and you could assume that, as him and paul are somewhat similar in age, he was the one they were talking about
I thought the whole point was that no one knew Jessica was harkonnen and so the kwisatz came early in Paul. Harkonnen and atriedes mixing. it was the supposed to the son of Jessica’s daughter and Fay’d that the bene gesserit thought would be the KH
@@_Donovan thats basically what I meant? Also its stated in the book and film that paul being the KH is down to jessica choosing to having a son.
There is a giant element people seem to have missed with Chani and Paul's "breakup". Paul (who can now SEE THE FUTURE) says "she'll come around" very calmly when she storms out. He's not guessing, he is stating a fact. I'll freely admit I didn't catch it until my second viewing but it's a point worth mentioning nonetheless
She has to because of story, unless they're gonna do a completely different version of Messiah.
Which personally I wouldn't mind at all.
But if she does I will lose what little respect I have for her character. Paul only becomes more egomaniacal from here. Chani stays with him in the book because she doesn’t mind sharing him with a cause greater than both of them. And she doesn’t have a fundamental disdain for prophesy and religion and she can understand jihad.
If this movies Chani left because of what Paul is now…she should only hate him move as the genocide he will oversee unfolds. Paul breaks the Fremen culture.
I like the change of Chani's character. It gives the audiences a conduit to distrust Paul and his status.
There's a scene in Messiah in Paul's throne room when the guild navigator straight asks Paul why he didn't prevent the holy war. Paul gives the reason that his sister actually IS a goddess and that is why a holy war became necessary. On a purely cinematic level, that would be an excellent place to introduce Alia in Part 3. Imagine that's the first scene (after an expositional montage carrying us through the time jump) where a guild navigator arrives to officially pledge the guild's allegiance to their new emperor. The galaxy has been starving on a choked spice supply so they need to make peace. The navigator is still caracteristically blunt. Then Paul introduces his sister. Sitting at his right side. She can tell the guild navigator about her life. About being a preborn abomination. And her effect on the seemingly unfazed, unbothered metahuman will be the demonstration of her power. More strange and terrifying than even this mutated fish man star hopper.
I will say, even as a book purist, I was so taken with how this movie was shot, I beamed when I came out of the theatre. Only after sleeping on it did I realize what was missing. I have to admit, I’m let down with Chani’s character arc. It crushed my little Dune heart. In addition to Jessica’s agency being taken away with the water of life, the fact that Chani was forced to enact the made-for-movie prophecy via The Voice just about killed me.
Changing the time skip to a montage of attacking the spice harvesters makes sense, show don’t tell.
If they did do the skip they would need a way to convey that to the audience either with dialogue or on screen text, the character would need to be “aged up” somehow and they would also need to get a child actor for the little sister, having them talk to a fully aware fetus was way weirder.
The change with chani was ok i think, of all the fremin shes the one who sees paul as a person, not just outsider of messiah, she hears pauls dream about the holy war, the billions of lives losts and how hes so afraid of it. When paul starts being pushed into the roll she fight against it for him even when he begins the walk the path himself. As for why she leaves at the end who knows, maybe she thought being around paul when she couldn’t be with him was too painful or maybe she didn’t want to be a part of the holy war she tried to stop
The actors are going to have to be aged up for Dune Messiah for sure if they plan on sticking to the time skip from the book.
Jessica doesn't ever really accept Chani, at least not explicitly, there's always the same BS Leto kept to in that not marrying Chani would be prudent for political reasons.
Except it's not BS. It's political savvy
Yeah I actually liked the fact that Chani is critical of him in the movie. I (didn't like the book in general) didn't like how she just accepted he could Kwisatz Haderach in the book after being so damn critical of him.
I really liked what they did with Channi. It puts Paul embracing the Lisan al Gaib role into a much more negative light, which I might just like because it amplifies the themes that Dune '84 missed so completely. It also means if they do Dune Messiah it's going to be a fundamentally different story; Channi having left Paul means one of the book's main conflicts is effectively off the table, and Paul seems much more all-in on the whole holy-war thing. It's a huge deviation but honestly, I'm thinking let him cook.
I've read the first three books so far. I think it makes sense for Chani to be upsets with Paul. I think I like movie Chani better than book Chani. I agree with you about the mentats, it would have been nice to haven't them in there and more about why they use technology the way they do. I kept waiting for Alia and Leto to be born, but I get the way they did the timeline. I also like the way they portrayed Jessica, because I think it willing help the audience understand Alia as a char better later on.
Drumsand making an audble boom sounds instantly made me think that drumsand is actually a thing the worms themselves dig out and create in the deep desert, areas with very good acoustics just under the sand (held up by a mucal membrane perhaps?) to amplify the sounds of prey from great distances.
does anyone think that maybe Chani is now pregnant with their first child, and he dies during this conflict. Vengence brings her back to the war and gives Irulan her chance to drug her.
Awwww DAMN. That would be pretty epic, NGL I love that idea.
I think the lack of Chani’s and Paul’s son and Alia’s birth totally takes away the impetus that drove Paul to take the water of life despite having run from it for so long. He knew taking the water would lead him down the golden path to Jihad. But when he didn’t see the attack to his son and capture of his sister coming with the limited powers he had with his spice dreams he was driven to fully embracing his powers by taking in the water so he could see all paths forward.
In the movie he just does it because the Harkonnens bomb 1 seitch? I don’t even think he loses anyone close to him in the movie. Hardly an event that should have changed him from running from his future to embracing it
The loss of his son is the thing that tips him over the edge from resistance to radicalization.
If anything it felt less like a landing and more like a tuck and roll before a sick backflip, no idea if Denis has plans for a third but I think fans are rabid for one.
I honestly believe this film is going to be remembered as the Two Towers of the Dune franchise. Dune: the Two Deserts
Chat in the ladies' post-film was that Chani being a sceptical atheist and the emphasis of her betrayal on 'coloniser using her people as a stepping stone' being revealed was *very* satisfying as a chapter break / temporary ending. (which appears to be how we're now thinking about these films) Plus the Northerners being atheists was a pretty good way of setting up the Fremen as having different factions with a common purpose.
Except none of that is in the book. The Fremen survive largely in part because of their faith. Atheism makes no sense in their society.
Except the Fremen have two faiths : the one crafted by the Bene Gesserit and the false prophecy about the Lisan al-Gaib, and the true terraforming process that will make Arrakis greener in the span of a few generations. Paul as leader embodies both dreams : there is also a secular reason why Fremen follow him. If he becomes duke again, he could accelerate the terraformation process to make the dream true in less than a generation.
They did cut my favorite moment and the character that it was involved with them. Count Hasimir Fenring
The scene that is my favorite is when the Emperor orders him to kill Paul. He and Paul look at each, essentially go mood kindred. Then tell the emperor no.
Fenring is also super interesting because he's the first person we ever see who is invisible to prescience, which becomes super important later in the books.
@@derek96720 One of my favorite characters as well, and also a failed Kwisatz Haderach. I know there's lots to hate about the new DUNE novels written by KJ Anderson and Brian Herbert, but have really enjoyed most of the adventures of Hasimir. "Please consult me before you initiate your plans, sire, hmmmmmmm?"
@@joelsommers
He's definitely a cool character in a different story.
He's entirely superfluous in Dune.
I do think it's a shame we don't see Fenring, like I like Thufir, but based on his much diminished role in the first movie, I expected him to either be basically a cameo or not appear at all in this one
But Count Fenring is a weird exclusion when we do still get Margo Fenring
"... (Muad'Dib) tells us that a single obscure decision of prophecy, perhaps the choice of one word over another, coukd change the entire aspect of the future..." - Princess Irulan
Pardot Kynes gave birth to a female instead of a male, much later in his life. This along with Fenring's apparent death of unknown reasons prior to the Atriedes takeover of Arrakis has created different available paths to the future.
A similar but different path is chosen in the film because of these reasons as opposed to what occurs in the text version of the story.
I enjoyed these changes. Gives us fans a bit of mystery when watching the films. We can’t forget that film is a different medium of entertainment. As much as I would like a similar level of world building as found in the books, I enjoy how focused the films are with Paul’s internal conflict of becoming a charismatic leader and how everyone around him has something to say on the matter.
You're right saying movies are a different medium of entertainment and certainly many changes can be necessary. However, you can't hide everything behind the "adaptation" excuses. If you say you want to make a faithful Hercule Poirot adaptation and end up having Poirot solving the case with heavy gun and kung fu action, no matter how superb the fight is filmed, people will be rightfully skeptical of the result. (I'm giving an exaggerated, stupidly absurd example to make my point ^^) As a filmaker, choosing to adapt a book is also accepting to have your work compared to the source material and to other adaptations.
Considering how well it did this weekend, I don't think we have to worry about whether we're getting Messiah or not.
And probably sooner rather than later too
When all this is over, I'd like to see Dom do a Dune comparison video like he did with The Three Musketeers and A Christmas Carol.
Agreed. Especially as the 1984 and mini series videos are quite old now so it would be an excuse for a re-visit.
Doon Too: Moor Doon
As someone who went in Luke warm ( haven't read the books but is mostly aware of what happens)
I like what they did with Chiani at the end. The film needed a voice to say that all of this bad. And she was the perfect choice. Since she knew the details of Paul's visons
Not to mention since baby Leto isn't in the movie, there needed to be something else to sour Paul's rise.
She effectively lost Paul twice - once to a religion she didn't believe in and thought he didn't believe in too. And then to the politics that she thought he left behind.
Announcing his engagement to the Princess and sending her people to war? That was the final blow.
It was also just a cool image to end the movie on.
Thank you so much for this review
I think you've given the most straight up new thoughts I've heard from a review
I'm in the same place as you guys have been finished the book sometime last year
Mentats could be a bigger part of the narrative but I'm ok with skipping that plotline, rather than making it bad. And the story felt a little rushed for happening during just the pregnancy months. That said I LOVED all the changes, especially with Jessica and Chani. It felt like they had so much more agency and humanity to them! Paul too, I've never felt so much pity towards him like I did this time, bc he genuinely tries so hard to do the right thing and knowing that it's all in vain is kinda heartbreaking. When in the end he said "lead them to paradise" it sounded like he was resigned and almost chuckling towards himself at how naive he was to think it could end like anything but this.
I'm absolutely onboard with the Chiani change. It gives the story the "Paul might not be a good guy" bent that even Frank said wasn't clear enough in the first book. Makes it easier to understand for people who haven't read the books. It adds more than it takes away by quite a wide margin in my opinion.
Also, RE: Mentats (and the same goes for the Laandsrad and the Guild) - the movie is already nearly 3 hours long. Where do we find time for this world building? The main thing that made Dune so hard to adapt is because understanding the world is vital to understanding the plot. What DV has done a really good job of is only giving the audience exactly as much as they need to understand what is going on. While mentats are vital the universe, not knowing about them doesn't actually prevent Paul's story from functioning. We didn't see Feyd until the story needed him, we won't see the Guild until Messiah because until then the story doesn't need them. There's too much going on for anything but the most vital elements to be included.
The two movies together are 5 1/2 hours, the audiobook of the first book is 21 hours. There just isn't time for extraneous world building. The world building is actually my favourite part of the books, but I actually really like how the movies don't focus on it.
I really missed Harrah and the fact that Paul essentially becomes a father at fifteen to Jamis' sons. There were no peaceful sietch city moments which took away from the Fremen civilization/world-building.
I actually really liked the fact that they added some layers to Chani. In the book she is a rather flat character, obeying her man and his every word. I was so happy to find her nothing like that in this film. ✨
She doesn't obey him, she shares the same dream and the same goal. Both their fathers were killed the same day by the same people. Chani's family launched the terraforming process that if the Fremen great dream. That's why there is no conflicting views between her and Paul in the novel.
@@stefbegExactly. I don’t think that people really understand the strength of Chani from the boos.
The character in the books had a history, a people, a culture, a dream.
The character in the movie had literally no depth. We don’t know who her people are, what her beliefs and dreams are if she even has any. Her entire personality is “token atheistic Fremen.” She signifies nothing about the Fremen people as she is literally the only Fremen not to kneel. Just a loner with no people
To be fair to Vilvenue, finding a three year old actor who could play Alia would be nearly impossible
Then make it a 6 year old. The lack of his son’s death and Alia’s capture takes away the impetus that drove Paul to finally take the water of life. The bombing of nameless and faceless Fremen off-screen was a poor substitute for that initiative.
The Arena scene was shot in IR.
The best praise I can give to Part 2 as an adaptation is that it gets the point of Dune. My only real problem was not including Jamis' funeral, since that's my favourite scene in the book and is a good introduction for Paul to both the Fremen way of life and the community in general, making a good first impression on the sietch. Other than that, I understand why they did every other change and while some bits will be missed, the finished product was fantastic for me.
As for the potential sequel...I'm waiting for us to get God-Emperor of Dune adapted. Got to get our wormy tyrant on the big screen somehow.
Hubby and I just saw Dune Part Two and I was very excited to come back and watch your videos on these two now that I could. Decided to marathon all of your dune content, and I gotta say the best part of it was watching how your videos and entire persona changed over the years and remembering where I was when I first saw those old videos too. What a trip lol.
Two videos in one week and BOTH on stories I love!
Dominic is dominating this week 🎉🎉🎉
Not read the books but rather love how Johnny was against all this chosen one stuff. The movie really felt like Paul being the Chosen one is a bad thing and we like that trope being thrown on it head like that.
Going off book wasn’t sequel-baiting, it was narrative economizing, adaptation 101! And Chani was TOTALLY set up as a foil from minute freaking ONE. And the goddamn film narrative leaves you in HER perspective,
Going back to rewatch your older Dune videos and this was wild. You were so young once!
YES!!! I was waiting for this, Dom!!!
Villeuve always said he wanted to do Dune and Dune Messiah so we'll see if we get that one
I‘ve never read the books (which I’m tempted to change btw), so to answer your question Dom:
Chani leaving felt like somewhat of a forcing of the typical cliché lovers conflict at 2/3rds in a movie/series just at the point where if it didn’t occur, all would come out fine.
(I hope I’m making sense.)
And I feel like it’s doing her character a great disservice (from the writers, not herself).
I think for a modern audience it feels more true to the character to that point for her to take a stand against Paul rather than agreeing to be his mistress/concubine.
Just came out of the movie, absolutely adored every second of it. Watched it with my dad who's a lifelong fan of the books and he loved it too, and in fact had the opposite opinion to you on the runtime; He genuinely felt like everything on offer was important and that you couldn't cut much of anything out. Also, throwing my hat in the ring that Chani's resistance to the prophecy and her skipping out as it becomes clear that Paul is no longer the man she fell in love with worked awesomely.
It is also worth noting that a key character reappears in Messiah as a mentat, so if you exclude mentats that is one of the key points of their return gone. (Trying to avoid spoilers for anyone who hasn't read Dune Messiah).
And that is without taking into account mentats being super-genius human computers vs the person who plays that character, which is so against their usual type of character I'm curious to know if (a) it happens and (b) if they can pull it off.
Honestly I think the choice to give Chani more agency in her story (similar to earlier adaptations giving Irulan more of a role throughout rather than just her diary excerpts) was a good one. She has so much tragedy happen to her because she sticks by Paul and goes along with his decisions, so I really like that this time around she'll choose that despite knowing it'll likely end poorly, instead of just trusting things will be okay. I also agree that her role in part II also hammers the anti-chosen one message of Dune in properly on the off chance Messiah doesn't get made.
I kinda feel like Alia and Chani and what happens with them is more about Villeneuve than it is about what's best for Dune. Alia isn't born because the creepy adult-minded toddler is just a bit too goofy for the serious artsy vibe that he wanted, and Chani is there as sort of a director stand-in to say, "We the filmmakers disapprove of Paul's actions." ETA: Also, I don't love that Paul's integration into Fremen culture and becoming the best of the best and rising to their leader now happens over a period of like six months instead of 5+ years.
Didn't Denis say he loved the books?
@@festo512 It doesn't super matter. Even if you love a book, as a filmmaker, you do have to make decisions when you're making an adaptation about whether something that worked in the book will work in a movie. You also have to consider, "Hey, how is the audience who doesn't know the book going to react to this?" And, "Hey, even people who've read the book may not understand the point the author was making with this, how can I make it clearer?" or "I interpret this differently than other readers, how do I make them see what I saw?" There's a lot of reasons why changes are made to adaptations, it's rarely "The director hated the book and wanted to just borrow enough to count as an adaptation while mostly making their own original movie."
@@darla1aeryn1fan Or is it a case of the movie is expensive so a movie with child killer alia and chani as sex slave may get bad press which means less money?
@@festo512 Sure, also possible. I don't know that I would necessarily go with that as my first explanation, though, since they decided that having a maniacal fetus was just fine.
@@darla1aeryn1fan Or you like the visuals so much you are willing to ignore the terrible script. How mature of you. Might as well go read image comics from the 90s.
Loved the film! Thanks For this dom😊😊😊❤❤
Regarding Alia not being born yet due to timeline compression: I imagine this was due to toddler-Alia probably not translating to the screen well.
Regarding the apparent changes to Chani, as someone who went into this without reading the book: It did a lot to externalise some of Paul's internal pressures, IE him not wanting to be the Lisan al Gaib and be the cause for a holy war.
This film felt something like a Greek tragedy to me. Think about how many of those stories revolve around characters trying to avoid a prophecy, but in the process they end up fulfilling it, and causing more pain and death in the process. Paul becomes so hell-bent on his goals that he becomes the very thing he was trying to avoid, and rather than being framed as him embracing his destiny or anything like that, it's explicitly negative: the audience has it made very clear that this path will cause untold devastation, and will turn him into a messiah that leads the Fremen to death as much as victory. Chani's role is very important in this. She says that as long as Paul remains true to himself, he won't lose her. In the end, he abandons that promise, and this is what drives the wedge between them. His decision to wed the princess is just the cherry on top, representing the lack of communication that now exists between him and Chani. When Paul loses himself, he loses Chani, because the man that she loved is gone, or at least changed into someone she cannot love.
and the sad part is he sees that she'll come to understand so he does it anyway. his hubris hurts Chani.
Bullshit. In the books Paul does everything he can to avoid jihad, even him leaning into it is all in hopes to have enough power to stop it. But jihad happens either way and despite all his powers he is powerless to stop it. That's his tragedy. Meanwhile in the movie he stright up, genuinly, switches into powerhungry, genocidal tyrant just "because we are Harkonnens". I'm sorry but they completely butchered Paul's character in this movie.
@@MkZuO12345 yup, they butchered his character because they wanted to give the poor oppressed brown people more agency, even though in the books he knows that if he dies they'll just make him a martyr and commence with the jihad anyway.
@@naurrr
It's very upsetting.
Especially if you know what happens in Messiah.
Paul is simply very bad news for Chani.
The House Atreides is literally named after (if not directly descended from) the Mycenaean King Atreus, so the Greek tragedy aspect is clearly intentional.
Personally, as someone familiar with the books, I loved like 99% of the changes they made, especially for Stilgard and Chani
The only thing I missed was Alia shanking the Baron :v
I actually hated how they written Chani in the movie. It felt that they replaced Chani with a bad body double, she felt too rebellious against her own people. Worse still is who the movie ended, Chani was in the book was a intelligent and knew what paul was doing (Even though Paul's 'marriage' was more Irulan's idea to stop war) and accepted it, saying 'let her, I have Paul's love, she won't.'
Chani was badly written compared to the book, whom was a stronger in my opinion compared to what I feel like was a extremely out of character 'Chani.
@@TheTallGuy1992 She wasn't rebellious against her people. Fremen were shown to be divided between Northerners who have to deal with occupation and are more pragmatic as result and Southerners who live in hell world and are more fundamentalist as result.
Personally I felt Paul killing the Baron made more sense story wise as even in the original story Alia never knew her father so it carried more weight with Paul doing it.
@@jamesatkinsonja Alia did know her father. She has all of Jessica's memories.
@jamesatkinsonja oh, I didn't mind it, I just find the Alia scene to be morbidly funny :v
Denis has said he just wants to do it as a trilogy, with all of Dune Messiah as the 3rd movie. It does have a really good ending for a trilogy, finishing the story of Paul's villainy and downfall, and the tragedy of what the fremen become
I saw the movie two times right now and had time to think about the ending and why it felt rather natural to me.
Like you said the shrinked down a period of multiple years into just a few month. The consequence of this is also, that the relationship between Paul and Chani had much less rime to develop. Book Chani had years to develop the relationship and trust she had for Paul and in their relationship. Film Chani had just a couple of month at most to get to know Paul. This is an incredible short amount of time for her to learn to trust in the person Paul and build that kind of relationship with Jessica. Film Chani still has a certain distrust aginst the foreigners that came to Arrakis for harvesting spice. She saw him fight a few weeks with the Fremen, making promising first steps to learn and understand their culture, but what she really has is his words and promises not years of shared experience together. Book Chani not just had Paul's child, she also saw him engaging in her culture and builded trust with her people. Film Chani is in the first what? Three or four months of a very fresh relationship with a foreigner. The phase where you figure out if you really work together as a couple. In this crucial stage she sees how he tosses all the things he said to her out of the window to do what he told her he would not do. On top of going for another woman.
Personally, Film Chani leaving and taking that Desert Ueber feels a more natural reaction than to stay at Paul's side and watch him start a Holy War. She just had no time to develop that kind of relationship where she would stay with him.
I'm just gonna say, a LOT of the changes, like Chani and Jessica, were done for the sake of media literacy. This is a very easy story to misinterpret and Frank Herbert even wrote Dune Messiah because he was frustrated so many people misconstrued Paul as the hero of Dune. Villeneuve has said in interviews that he wanted to make it abundantly clear that Paul is NOT the hero. This is why Chani is so vocally against him being the messiah and why Jessica is portrayed more as an antagonist. The film is very carefully crafted to make sure you come away from it knowing that Paul is a false messiah and this story is a warning against blindly following someone who calls themself a saviour.
Although apparently they needed to end the film with a written disclaimer because dear god, people are somehow STILL misinterpreting Paul as the hero, whether they think the film is endorsing white saviour narratives or they're flat-out idolizing Paul.
So turns out the SyFy Channel is still the most faithful adaptation.
But not the best cinematic product. Even the 1984 film is more “book accurate” but isn’t even remotely as good.
Man, every time I think about the lasgun parts from the first movie, I was just screaming inside "There could easily be a dude with a shield down there/behind that door/etc!"
As someone who hadn’t read the book, I ADORED this film. I thought baby Alia was so unique and interesting