Vindication | Rahdo's Final Thoughts
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 лис 2018
- Help Rahdo Run: / rahdo ❤️ Code of conduct: conduct.rahdo.com 🙂 And now...
A video outlining gameplay for the boardgame Vindication.
For more game info, boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2...
Part I: Gameplay Runthrough
• Vindication Gameplay R...
(static cam) • (static cam) Vindicati...
Part II: Extended Gameplay
• Vindication Extended G...
(static cam) • (static cam) Vindicati...
Part III: Final Thoughts
• Vindication | Rahdo's ...
How does it feel to see your opinion seemingly be so valued that most of the changes you wanted to see are being implemented in the expansion/second Kickstarter? They are making new die with the changes you suggested, adding more use for the monuments, and adding character standees instead of the metal tokens. It almost seems like a patch to me, but it's a patch I'm more than ok paying for because the game is so good!
As has been said one Vindication definition is the action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion.
"I intend to work to ensure my full vindication"
That is one meaning, the other is to justify one's actions.
The last and probably the least used vindicated means to set free or to deliver. To set free from guilt ...
UPDATE: So it looks like the new expansion (currently on Kickstarter) addresses most/all of these issues.
1. Has the updates dice as Rahdo suggests.
2. Has the player standees for greater sense of theme.
3. Adds more thematic connection to Guilds and Monuments.
Here’s the link if interested: tinyurl.com/y8ozgyty
Wow. High praise. Yes. You can say it and I accept your thought that Vindication does have "This year's Gloomhaven" greatness. I have not played Gloomhaven, but the storage and setup issues issues were significant issues among others. But, people stuck to it and found solutions because the game was worth it.
The name change happened after the campaign was done. Personally still like Epoch: The Awakening more. Redemption could still work, even with the treachery cards in the game. No realistic charting of character development is going to be a steady upward slope getting always better. There's a life time of wretched behavior patterns to slip back into as ways to achieve goals.
I do somewhat share the concerns regarding the distraction of the minis. But, find they are essentially an exclamation mark meant to drive home how passionate the publisher is about this game. And, the game is so worth it. Loving every play. Thanks for pouring your all into yet another great run through and review, Richard. Love that you share it all. Funny that some only hear the negative even when you repeat your love for the game and provide a back story for why you poke at small things you would love to see different. :)
The original name was Epoch but was changed to Vindication mid-Kickstarter to avoid a potential copyright issue
You are such a good reviewers. Don't change anything about how your review process please.
thank you! :)
Rahdo, I absolutely agree that this game is right up there with the “masterpiece” level of Gloomhaven. So glad you said that. And yes, you’re nitpicking it because, like so many, you see something very special here.
I also agree that a future expansion of player minis would really resonate with the theme more than guild symbols as player makers.
If you’re interested, here’s another way of looking at some of your pain points in the game.
1. THE NAME: Vindication vs Redemption. Your instincts were correct regarding a second meaning to the word. In addition to “proof that someone is correct or justified” vindication also means “the action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion.” So to “vindicate yourself” actually DOES fit the theme and name. 👍 (insert Obey Wan’s voice saying “...from a certain point of view”).
2. BOX SIZE: I don’t know about you, but 90% of the games I buy have terrible and mostly useless inserts that require me to spend $40+ on 3rd party solutions to reduce set up time and avoid a sea of little plastic bags. Plus the extra shelf space expansion boxes take up because you can’t fit the extra content in the original box. I’ll happily take a “big box” solution from the start that holds all the expansions, and makes game set up a breeze! Just my two cents on the issue.
3. DICE: I actually think it’s balanced as-is. When you fight a monster you are taking a gamble. As in all gambling you either win big, lose big, or break even. It’s the same here. If you win big, you can win a great resource (attribute), honor points, and get bonus honor points at end of the game. If you lose big, you run the risk of losing a great companion, and losing their honor points in the process. So there is big gambling risk with fighting monsters, and I’m personally okay with the swing of results in the spirit of “gambling.”
4. HONOR for blocking someone? When you said this, it definitely got me thinking. So here’s another angle on it: When you’re aligned with a guild, you are gaining favor with the GUILD for doing a guild action. Yes, it’s called a “barricade” (even though it doesn’t stop your opponent in any way), but you are doing it for your guild and THEY bestow honor on you for “playing team.” So I think of it more like “hey, what’s your business in this territory? (Said the man at the barricade) “yeah, just headed to the spire for my daily prayer.“ oh okay, carry on.”
5. EXPANSION TILES not having reminder symbols of what they do, and base game tiles not having a symbol that indicates limited or unlimited use. I’m torn on this, because I AGREE with you on this and also found it a bit strange.
*edit: looks like the designers did clarify that the colon “:” on any tile means “use it as much as you can afford.”
Overall my good man, it’s a joy to watch you play this. It gives me some new ideas of how to utilize the board. AND a big thank you for your tip on Beast Mistress Veroa. I definitely played that wrong when I had her as a companion.
The second definition of "clearing yourself" is in the context of being wrongly accused before. If you are actually bad, you can't vindicate yourself, because you are ACTUALLY bad. Only a "good" person can be vindicated. If you are bad and become "good," then you are redeemed.
Maybe covered in a previous comment but an arrow is a one time only action on a tile and a colon means you can do it as many times as you can afford aka the infinity symbol would’ve been better but, not an issue
I have yet to get my copy, but dang! I mean, I'm glad you enjoyed it and that's it's a great game and pretty, but if I get the same sentiments you do after some plays, I may do some houserules for them myself. The company and their staff are awesome people too, their communication is very down-to-earth while humerous. Hope this game gets the love it deserves. :) Thanks for the final thoughts!
Played twice in a row and then immediately purchased! Really says something about the merits and fun in this game when, despite the little take that area control mechanisms, Jen and Rahdo still made a warm place for it on their shelf! :0)
Thanks so much for the runthrough and final thoughts. I have mixed feelings right now, I thought this was going to be one of my best "bets" this year, I grabbed it on late pledge and I'm still waiting for it, so eager to have it in my hands! But I now feel your worries and your disappointment on how this could have been a perfect game but it isn't due to some strange things... Orange Nebula team is awesome and I would love to hear their reaction to your opinion, will they do/are they doing something about it? Do they feel some of your concerns are not funded? I would like to know :)
I have enjoyed my plays very much and at this point it might be my game of the year. I agree with almost everything you have said about odd choices. I would love a player miniature or standee instead of metal bits, the point tracker going above 100 sucks they should have put small numbers to track above 100 score. I wish the cards would have been 70x70 and fit in the sleeves. Like you said it is hard to be harsh on it because it is so good.
Very good review!
For the combat die, you could change the "Blank" could be either "Take back one of your attribute block from any circle back to your Influence" OR "Move one of your Influence back to Potential"
Or both ?
If you have an attribute, take it back to influence;
If no attribute is assigned, move an Influence back to Potential
(The reasoning would be: After the fight, you feel empty...)
good ideas. my thought was blank simply means i don't get the reward of the other die :)
@@rahdo (That was fast!) And yeah that could be a good idea too! Worth testing I say! (I missed the kickstarter and it's out of stock for Canada. Seeing your review make me want that game very badly! )
@@alexandrelake507 3 days left on the new Kickstarter campaign, which includes an expansion: www.kickstarter.com/projects/orangenebula/vindication-boardgame?ref=discovery&term=Vindication
This was a great review. I subscribed to the channel due to the honesty I saw in this review. Thank you!
I appreciate this final thoughts Richard, one can clearly feel your passion for the game. I can understand your annoyance about the use of nomenclature, but perhaps Vindication is the correct choice afterall. There are cards/allies that make you lose honor and so on which would allude to the entire process of going between good and bad actions in order to win. Straight up redemption would nullify any negative actions and the theme would fall apart. I think the problem is how they advertised the game that the goal was to get redemption. Either way, I love the passion and energy you've given for this game and hopefully Orange Nebula will polish things up for future releases.
well, you do win by having the most "honor" at the end, so i think it is intended to be a story of redemption. not sure how else to look at it :)
Think that box is big, well the Archive of the Ancients box that has just came out is even bigger but it does hold everything that has been released to include the two new expansions. Yes this is a cube pusher/cube placement game but is fun to play and the components are fantastic. First game from Orange Nebula and was one game that I got me from the first time I saw it at the FLGS. Knew nothing about it but have enjoyed it since it came out.
I've been on the fence about Vindication for a long time. I have watched playthroughs, rules explanations, previews and reviews all before and was still undecided. Listening to your final thoughts again I finally heard the word I was apparently looking for: Satisfying. This was the moment where I decided to get the game.
Was it good and satisfying? I am in between this, Scythe and Dune: Imperium (which is currently out of stock everywhere).
@@akuskus I like it a lot. I would take this over Scythe or Dune personally, but I also know people that don't think as much of it. Resource generation and resource conversion is at the heart of the game. I feel it is an interesting hybrid between euro game and adventure, and quite satisfying. I think it all depends on what You are looking for. Combat here is solitaire against monsters, not other players.
@@timdertim Thanks for answering! Good to hear you like it. Probably I will buy all of them over time but seems like Vindication wants to be the first one.
Well, let's hope it gets a revised 2nd print :)
I assumed that it was not the hero's ill deeds that were vindicated, but their existence. They justified the fact that they still live and can reconcile and redeem their past.
I agree with your criticisms about the theme. There's a fair amount of dissonance between what you're doing and what would actually be honorable. For example why does a wretched scumbag start the game with 15 honor?
In the end I came up with a slight tweak on the theme that might help you. The honor track is not how your character sees themself but how others see you. When we play the game we imagine our characters aren't really trying to redeem themselves and be honorable they just want people to THINK they're honorable while still secretly being the scumbag they always were. Our characters have learned (from being abandoned by our comrades) that if you're going to successfully be a scumbag you've got to hide it.
that is clever, and it makes the title more theme appropriate as well! i'm not looking for redemption for my previous sins... i'm still bad, i just want everyone to vindicate my behavior :)
Persnickety Jerb!
I really like the look of this game, tough to find though.
It's on kickstarter with 9 days left.
www.kickstarter.com/projects/orangenebula/vindication-boardgame
No miniature for the characters hmm. Sounds like a reason for a 2nd ks of redemption lol
So how do you compare the luck / variance caused by a die roll, to pulling a useful or bad card from an game deck? No luck, no risk, less tension, less fun. Given Vindication has so many paths to victory, and so several mitigation strategies that you would end up with a total cube pusher if there wasn’t variance to cope with.
well i generally prefer card draws because there's a finite number of outcomes, so as more cards get discarded you have a better show at anticipating how things will go.
and you say total cube pusher like it's a bad thing!!! :)
I agree with so much of what you said. That box, however gorgeous, is just to big. I would prefer to make an insurt myself than have all of the waisted space from the Gametrayz insurt. I have also found they are not durable enough to withstand my kids, they are too thin for constant use.
Quick Question - do the variant dice added in the KS that just ended address your concern on that front? (I ask because the miniatures & box choice which you mentioned aren't a big concern for me).
i'm not sure, i hadn't looked to see what was new with the expansion and all that. what do the dice do?
@@rahdo - from the kickstarter campaign page: "Broken Will" and "Parity" Dice. If you sometimes cry when luck dances with your opponents instead of you, it's OK. This variant die will dry those heroic tears, offering greater attribute balance for the meticulous gamer."
Which game is the yellow box on the right of Gates of Luoyang?
Thanks and sorry for offtopic
merkator, also from uwe rosenberg :)
Looking forward to seeing an Endeavor runthrough...
i've already done one:
ua-cam.com/video/NHzlu61cb5U/v-deo.html :)
as far as i know, there weren't any significant changes to the core gameplay of the new version, but i'll probably eventually do a video talking about whatever tweaks were made :)
Hey Richard,
What do you think of the narrative elements they added to this game with the Chronicles expansion, which is now on Kickstarter?
sorry to say i don't know much about them :(
Do you have any thoughts on the Leaders and Alliances expansion?
nope haven't seen it :(
Five seconds into hearing the theme, I thought "It sounds like this game should be Redemption. Vocabulary fail?"
It still amazes me how people still put Gloomhaven on this imaginary pedestal. This game has more going on in it and actual play in the first 15 minutes you play compared to playing every scenario in Gloomhaven.
FYI: vin·di·ca·tion
/ˌvindəˈkāSH(ə)n
noun
The action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion.
i would *strongly* disagree with your assessment of gloomhaven, but to each their own.
re: defintion... the rules make it clear that there's no suspicion of wrongdoing that required vindication... you are bad, wretched, etc. so you don't need vindication for false accusations, you need redemption for past behavior. to vindicate past behavior is to say that it was okay all along, which is *not* the case in this game
@@rahdo Yup. Your Gloomhaven playthrough convinced me to get it well before the hype train made it impossible to get. Thanks :)
This game is awesome. No doubts about that. Buy it.
Orange Nebula must really value your opinion. Every criticism you made in this video has been addressed in the expansion that's almost done being kickstarted :)
Do you mean the "Leaders & Alliances Expansion"? Or is the actuall Vindication® Boardgame Kickstarter already a updated version?
@@LeifinFarbeBrettspiele Leaders and Alliances expansion have extra components addressing his concerns (different dice, character standees, etc).
@@AlmightyCow1 thanks a lot for your fast reply. I think i will give that KS a chance...! ;-)
@@LeifinFarbeBrettspiele Ends today. Act fast!
@@AlmightyCow1 Done. :-)
I wonder why Vindication seems warlike and cruel in English, I found on Oxford dictionary : "The action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion" or " Proof that someone or something is right, reasonable, or justified", in French, for sure it's the fact to attack someone to get back your right or claim back something stolen.
Perhaps you can use the Miniature guild for your own pawn since you are invested by their power to represent them in the game ;o) ? I'd do that In fact' I think that is why they come same size than monster...
they're pretty big and unwieldy, so i'm not sure they'd work for that...
Your interpretation of Vindication is on point, but I think the source of your distress is actually in your interpretation of Wretched. Unless there's some kind of lore within the game that contradicts this, wretched does not necessarily mean evil. Wretched can more closely be defined as someone surrounded by unfortunate conditions or circumstances, someone who is surrounded by misery and sorrow, someone who is to be pitied. A person suffering in this manner can of course be driven to evil acts, and in most stories wretches usually become evil. However, in my interpretation Vindication is a game about rising above your past, your circumstances, your condition. It's about looking at the hand life has dealt you and saying "NO! I will rise above this. I will show those who have scorned me that I have value and that the circumstances of my past do not define me. I will succeed where all said I would fail."
And one more point that I left out. So it's true that your character card says "Guilt-ridden Scumbag", but there are MANY things that could cause a society to label you as a deplorable reprobate that have nothing to do with actually being evil. Maybe your character is a bastard, maybe you're deformed in a Spartan society that kills disabled children at birth, maybe you're of a mixed race in a culture that values racial purity, maybe you're hermaphroditic. Maybe you're any number of potential things that could cause a society/culture as a whole to tell you that you are worthless and you've borne that burden for your entire life. Maybe this is a story about you discovering that it's not you who are evil... it's society for judging you so harshly...
that's a fair point, however the very 2nd sentence of the rulebook says "After a life spent chasing wealth and excess, your cruelty and corruption have finally caught up with you." So that's pretty clear that this isn't some sort of societal misunderstanding... :)
@@rahdo Hahaha. Point made and taken. This is what I get for overthinking things.
@@rahdo Hmmm. I think your point is a good one, but (without having played it), my understanding is that to achieve Vindication you have to go through changes -- taking your potential that was wasted in your life and turning it into something better? If that is so, then you are Vindicated not for being a scumbag, but for becoming something better. It is the change that brings Vindication. If so, that makes more sense to me. Still, Redemption probably would have been an even better title.
But can you houserule it then?
sure, except for faq.rahdo.com #24...
OK, who else loves looking at the games on the shelves and trying to figure out if they are sorted by game designer /theme etc.?
"Noun: the action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion." So I think it's less about "I was right for being evil all along" but "I was wrongly convicted."
but my character card says i'm wretched and guilt ridden...
@@rahdo wretched is a very unhappy state. I've got nothing for guilt ridden though.
@@Illumas yup, also the 2nd sentence of the rulebook reads "After a life spent chasing wealth and excess, your cruelty and corruption have finally caught up with you." So that's pretty clear that this isn't some sort of societal misunderstanding... :)
A lot of the things you're complaining about were specifically asked for in the second kickstarter campaign.
that's coolio! :)
Well worth the $0.25 and a cup of coffee. Well, done, schlub! Loved your energy and commentary.
I think the Vindication name actually works now. Hear me out. Vindication, meaning “I was right all along!” is really about getting stronger and becoming the main bad guy. You’re NOT seeking redemption, and the honor is forced-that’s a bad guy. You’re just trying to become strong enough to tell everyone else you were right all along.
that almost makes more sense :)
100th Comment!… I just had to say it.
I just have to see the pros and cons which Richard has about this game. I think those “rough edges” have since been ironed out - and this looked like a cool game, with lots of added expansions now! :-)
This is one of the weirdest, disorganized final thoughts I've seen so far. Weird
Never comment, so has anyone ever mentioned how much like Steve Carrel Rahdo looks?
you are not the first :)
This game is not for everyone. I know that because it's definitely not for me. Just played it today with 4 ppl, including rules explanation, and it felt like a (4 hour long) slog I am sorry to say. One player quickly got ahead after about quarter of the game and stayed in the lead until the very end, winning by 10 or 15 points. Another player at the table noticed that it feels like you accomplish very little on your turn while at the same time turns may take forever, not a great combination.
How is it a 4-hour slog when everyone else in the world talks about how quick it plays? Accomplish so little on turns? Sounds like someone doesn't know how to build their engine. Sounds to me an issue with you and your group.
You know, this is probably one of my top games of 2019. I really think that you are being way to hard on the game. It is a solid game.
vin·di·cate
/ˈvindəˌkāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
past tense: vindicated; past participle: vindicated
clear (someone) of blame or suspicion.
"hospital staff were vindicated by the inquest verdict"
synonyms: acquit, clear, absolve, free from blame, declare innocent, exonerate, exculpate, discharge, liberate, free, deliver, redeem; More
show or prove to be right, reasonable, or justified.
"more sober views were vindicated by events"
correct, being vindicated means being cleared of wrongdoing. in your example, the hospital staff were vindicated because the inquest cleared them of all charges against them. which is to say, either they didn't so what they were accused of.
this is very different than redemption, which was the original title of the game, and which is what you seek. the rules make clear that you have been an evildoer and you are looking to redeem yourself for your past sins. being vindicated means you never did the original sins. but you did in this game, so you do not seek vindication (proving you never did the bad stuff) but redemption (seeking atonement for what you did do)
Very picky review, only played once but loved the dice
Played twice, one at 2pl and the other 4pl. 2pl was enjoyable but 4pl was miserable. Too long down time. Also I am a little put off with the over production.
Also to me there weren’t enough variety in actions/choices. Too mush rinse and repeat; on one level it similar to wingspan. Beautiful game but just not much game to it.
Rant much :-)
from time to time!
@@rahdo :-)
Luck is part of every sport/game/life without it, it's just boring to do this and get that stuff.
about 1500 years worth of chess players might disagree :)
@@rahdo Yes, but after all possible moves have been calculated, as they often do, the game becomes stale without the RnG.
@@frankborsotti2666 well, the 600 million chess players active in the world today might disagree :)
English isn't my mother language, but isn't "vindication" a synonym of "redemption"?
nope, to be vindicated means to be proven that you were good when everyone thought you were bad. to be redeemed is to have been bad but then earned your way back to goodness...
ok so this does not fit on our table. Thanks and moving on.