Cope Thunder FA-50 vs F-22
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2025
- Mover and I chat about the reported simulated FA-50 kill on a US F-22 Raptor. Pure opinions, and speculation!
Every Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between. Send your topic ideas to cwlemoine at cwlemoine.com!
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this phillippines fa50 also wins a dog fight series with thailnd gripens scoring 10 to 7 last week on australians pitch black exercises.
source?
Clue “Pitch black 2024”
Not only philippines made good in air exercises but also its own navy seal exercises on the ground.
Phil. Navy seal? China coast guard captured Phil.navy seal and confiscated their weapons without firing a single shot during battle at Ayungin shoal. 😂😂😂😂😂
I'm from the Philippines, and this was reported widely in defense pages over social media here, but every single comment said they knew the Raptor was placed at a disadvantage, there is no way an F/A-50 would win BFM against a Raptor in a high aspect merge without restrictions.
Having said that, a Raptor is still very hard to beat regardless of the ROE, so we're still very proud of our boys
Sometimes they dont accept the t ruth
Youve seen it already .....and prove
Its not tbe air plane its the pilot
How about the js gripen is it also a joke
@corkycayabyabjr1280 it's about the pilot just like ww2 Japanese fighter planes a superior than a philippine warplanes but jesus villamor and his colleagues did a good fight a good fight against Japanese...
@@felixvillarantevillarante7983 FA-50 have little to NO chance to win against an F22. First of all, the F22 was configured to be "non stealth" and heavy (they usually put fuel tanks so the F22 would be a bit slower and innert missiles so there would be more radar signature). in other words, IT WAS HANDICAPPED (PARTIDA NG F22 PARA SA FA50)
@@corkycayabyabjr1280 Because modern air combat isn't about dog fighting anymore, technology has advanced so far that most engagement are now BVR (Beyond Visual Range) meaning your fire your BVR missiles and forget and withdraw. If the Raptor was given and typical modern engagement which you search for your target over long distances and fire your missiles over long distances, the FA-50 would have no chance to engage at all, because the F-22 can see them but the FA-50 can't. Stop this over patriotic delusion, it's just embarrassing for the rest of us Pinoys.
FA-50 is not a bad little jet in the right hands.
Thank you Gonky and Mover, you guys give us the real story or at least your educated opinions, I enjoy hearing from you!
"On paper the F-22 wins every time. In the real world, maybe not so much."
Thank you! Stat nerds are absolutely insufferable to deal with. Anybody can beat anybody if the circumstances line up in their favour and they can effectively seize the moment. I have a friend who was in the USAF back in the 80s and knew a lot of Naval Aviators from the line of work he was in. He always loves to recount the story of one of his friends humiliating a relatively experienced Tomcat crew in an A-7 corsair. And there are plenty of F-5 and Skyhawk pilots who have done the exact same thing, even though "on paper" the Tomcat was the superior aircraft.
It will always come down to the pilot. Period. Snort Snodgrass, may he RIP, was a kickass pilot because he knew how to fly the Tomcat. Vietnam ace Steve Ritchie has gone on record saying that if he and other experienced guys flew the Mig-17 and 21 against the F-4, that Phantom loss rate would've been a whole lot more. It will ALWAYS come down to the driver.
@@oldgoat142 wrong. Aerial warfare has evolved now. The Top Gun style dogfights which are BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuver) and WVR (Within Visual Range) battles era is over. Missiles have improved in terms of overall capabilities including homing capabilities, range, speed, etc. Aerial warfare will now BVR (Beyond Visual Range) battles: It means pilots don't need to see their targets to shoot them down. Air combat is no longer about maneuverability, it's no longer about getting behind the enemy to shoot him down first, it's about who detects and shoots first.
A USAF F-22 was able to sneak up close behind two Iranian F-4s undetected by the Iranian pilots and Iranian ground controllers. The F-22 was handicapped because the exercise was a dogfight exercise, and the F-22 was equipped with two droptanks which severely reduces its maneuverability and compromises its stealth capabilities.
@@fionajarnefeldt1024 They said the same thing pre-Vietnam. Missiles, missiles, missiles. BFM is dead. Well, there are a lot of dead crews who paid the price for that hubris.
The Tomcat had that cutting edge BVR when it was built. Phoenix was the answer to the soviet bombers. Now it's AAMRAMS and other weapons. Yet, guns are still a part of every airframe. Why? Because BVR or not, you don't have an infinite supply of missiles, and if you get saturated with drones and other platforms, sooner or later is going to come down to a knife fight.
It is my hope and prayer that the finite pool of crews won't have to pay the price for such short-sightedness again.
@@oldgoat142 you need to consider that homing missiles have massively improved from the Cold War.
Guns are still a part of every airframe in case something goes wrong.
it's not about the pilot or a plane. its all about how fully equipped or synchronized maneuver both pilot and a plane..
that is why they train and train and train more until such time they met their expectations..
proud of you both allied pilots,
from Philippines..
This exercise just proves that in a close in aircombat, the Phil Airforce can go toe to toe. This is why F16s are suitable for us.
They were just having fun... Big bro teaching his kid bro how to punch...
You mean Uncle Sam teaching Manny Pacquiao how to punch?
🥊😅
..and got clobbered
@@GolDRoger-fx2fpPacquiao is big caliber.
FA50 is a small one.😂
@@neiljanverga2875 small but terrible..
Rumour has it that “Maverick was flying the FA-50”😅
It's not about the plane, it's the Pilot.
It’s the plane and the pilot.
Top GUN
It's a both.
How many flying hours does he have 5000 hours. Flying skill takes time and Filipino pilots are just beginners with no real dogfight experience. Why not try Indian airforce or Pakistani airforce. These two air forces have very long dogfight experiences.
the goal of that exercise is to simulate air-to-air close combat or dog-fight, there are some constraints like the F22 was not even in stealth mode
though the headline 'F22 was shot down during Cope Thunder' is eye-catching, remember this is an exercise and beneficial for both countries.
Don't worry guys.. The Philippines or all the filipinos knows that the f22 pilot is just teaching the fa50 pilot how to dogfight 👍😁
Ok
The script said F22 will pretend to be shotdown and just make simple maneuver to make easy shoot down for Filipino pilot. Intended to make dogfight interesting to Filipino pilots.
Ooooo, I see. Thats why theres a kill. Thanks Bro
its not the machine but the pilot that is important, especially in WVR
Its like when that HUD picture showed up of that Hornet killing a Raptor.. i renember people going mad about it but doesnt mean anything..
Also renember we were talking about that and i asked a guy who was back then in the spanish air force as maintainer "do you guys have photos of the Hornet HUD killing the Typhoon?" and he replied "Not just that.. we have photos of F-5s killing Typhoons"
F-22 with a limited rules of engagement is not a full fledged raptor, it’s a woodpecker. But then again, the USAF doesn’t show all its capabilities whether you’re an ally or not. It’s gonna hold something in reserve. But thanks for the lessons learned ,the PAF, they’ll put it to good use!
FA-50 is like a F-16 and a F-18 had a baby
It’s like Macdonalds and Samgyupsal had a Baby Sotanghon
it's training anyway. and everyone here knew the F-22 was nerfed on purpose and ROE was in place during that time.
and yeah that "Fox 2" call was odd. the gun sight was on and tracking and the F-22 was dead to rights. it's been a while since the PAF did Cope Thunder as well since back then they only had subsonic AS.211s (Alenia Aermacchi S.211s modified for attack) going up against USAF A-10s. but lately they've been keeping up the tempo and going up against ATAC Hawker Hunters too during training. so the F-22 BFM was a first for them. but i digress.
in the end, everyone learns from exercises like this. just glad the PAF gets to stretch its wings again. and that's what matters.
The Phil Airforce FA 50 just defeated the Thai Airforce piloted Grippens. So I guess it is the pilot that makes the plane.
source?
@@jonlaurenzreyes1902bruh, can you just look it up? Look up COPE Thunder 2024 PH FA50 vs JAS Gripen. You're already in the internet but couldn't access Google? Bruh
The best PHILIPPINES AIR FORCE
Imagine you're at a red light and a shitbox civic tears off from the light and you didn't even know you were racing. But that civic owner has now killed a Z06 apparently and everyone has to hear about it. Same scenario. This Raptor just didn't see the jet with this gun camera footage, because if he does, the shitbox is dead. All kinds of weird shit happens in a LFE, you get warthogs in the cons, growlers trying to shoot, and Raptors on the deck, but none of it is worthy of a ticker tape news flash. 'Cope' Thunder indeed.
its not the plane ,its the ability of the pilot!
Try ww1 tank vs Abrams
Lol
it's about the pilot.
Unfortunately, there are those of us who don't or are unwilling to grasp nuance beyond the probability of stats and the idealism of on-paper match-ups.
Well said.
A win is a win
미군은 F22가 작고 날렵한 전투기에게 꼬리를 물렸을 때에 어떻게 대처해야 하는 지에 관한 데이터를 수집했을 것이다.
이 훈련에서 가장 중요한 건 그것이다. 마찬가지로 필리핀은 FA-50으로 5세대기를 상대할 때에 어떻게 대처해야 할 지에 관한 데이터를 수집했기를 바란다.
서로가 그렇게 정보를 습득했을 때 비로소 양국 모두의 Win-Win 전략이 될 수있다.
이 사건을 두고 단순히 누가 누굴 이겼다는 식의 선전을 하는 것은 어리석고 유치하고 하찮은 짓이다.
The US military must have collected data on how to deal with the F22 when it is tailed by a small, nimble fighter.
That is the most important thing in this exercise. Likewise, I hope the Philippines has collected data on how to deal with the FA-50 when it faces the 5th generation fighter.
Only when both sides acquire information like that can it become a win-win strategy for both countries.
It is foolish, childish, and petty to simply propagandize about who won over whom based on this incident.
It is the old Chinese argument of the Eagle vs the Gold fish, with the Eagle losing if it thinks it can swim. A kill is always a team effort of an integrated team helping each other block some, situate some, intel well, keep things safe, strategize and tacticalize the situation with good decisions and good anticipating approaches etc… A good team can trap an F-22 and get it shot down by an infantry man. Does that mean the F-22 is lesser than the infantry man? No, it makes no sense. There are planes dominating in certain situations and not at all in others.
the objective is to enhanced the pilot skills it happened that filipino pilot is serious when it regards to its training..
This is a Cope Thunder Exercise, it is an exercise that is why the F-22 does not use its full capability to eliminate his enemy. If the F-22 is to use its capability there is no more Cope Thunder Exercise, it can eliminate the enemy right away cause it can shoot at them beyond vision range they won't even see the F-22 they are already dead.
Tempest in a Tea Cup.
You cannot just understimate the skills and abilities of Filipino pilots. They're simply the top dog, amazing, and a testament of Filipino ingenuity. Peace to the World...🎉
The experience of doing with American airforce with its F22 vs FA50 was indeed a break through for PAF the training taught philippines alot and learned from it. That's why PAF is still looking for advanced capable aircraft to fit its role in defence FA50 has its limits and any good pilot will only get what the equipment can give. On a real scenario FA50 will surely be a sitting duck with the advance gen 5 figter planes.
4:22. Thats a good point. I bet the F-22 is well suited to simulate Su-30, and Su-35, 57, ect. Id imagine having training sorties against a thrust vectoring jet is invaluable for foreign air forces.
Top gun..." its the pilot not the plane"
"It's readworthy... but not newsworthy"
Is this possibly a "morale booster" story for the Philippine AF (and the South Korean AF) as they are oceanic neighbors with China and we could really use their alliance? Would it be something like a T-34C Mentor getting a "kill" on a P-51D Mustang? Or maybe a Folland Gnat F.1 getting a "kill" on an F-14A. Or even a MiG-17 getting a kill on an F-4J that is severely ROE restricted. It could happen. And in Vietnam it sure did happen.
I thought the goal of Red Flag was to get new pilots through their first 10 combat missions without actually dying...because, in a 100-mission tour in Vietnam, a new pilot was most likely to get killed, for real, in their first 10 missions. So, in Red Flag, the adversary pilots get kills on regular squadron pilots at first...in those first 10 missions or so...and then the adversaries start losing, right? And so, this might have been a type of "Red Flag" exercise in the West Pac to get Philippine AF pilots through their first 10 missions? And not to give them false confidence, but really prepare them to kick ass?
That's a dumb way to boost morale because China will definitely not think the same about F-22 anymore since it could be shot down by a light combat aircraft
@@ViolentCabbage-ym7ko- if you put it in a different perspective, the chinese thinking that the Raptor can be taken out that easily does work to the Raptor’s advantage, because it can result in the chinese underestimating the F-22’s (and the USAF guys’) true capabilities…
@@ViolentCabbage-ym7ko "That's a dumb way to boost morale because China will definitely not think the same about F-22 anymore since it could be shot down by a light combat aircraft"
If China thinks that, then it's actually good for the USA because it means China has been deceived and the result is they'll underestimate the F-22. In wars, underestimating the enemy is one of the worst mistakes belligerents can make.
Its pretty obvious this was a training video, Philippine pilot was just given a taste of what it feels like to be in a dogfight. It's not even possible mathematically if it's serious fight.
every time something happens in training, media and fanboys are quick to make it A is better than B! on a separate note, do you think rather than developing the larger Super Hornet, McD/Boeing should have just kept updating the regular Hornet?
Ya, but have they killed a balloon?
LOL!
US stands unchallenged in balloon engagements.
stop it 😂
💀
Make it simple who won between david over goliath?
Another anecdote in history: Saburo Sakai’s rickety old Zero engaged 8 Hellcats above Iwo Jima…. Sometimes it’s the pilot…
As Top Gun says…….It’s not the plane, It’s THE PILOT hahaha😂😂😂✌️✌️✌️
The FA50 disadvantaged is all about the fuel capacity, load capacity and 1.8 mach speed...the other features maybe the same with F-16 fighter jet...
To the pilots of the PAF well done. Foreign countries will always try to downplay our achievements. That's alright. Stay the course, keep your head down, don't be too cocky, train hard.
Accept the truth its actual Dogfight
FA 50 can make more acrobat cause of wings and Light aircraft can defeat any Confrontation
It's tom cruise who is piloting the FA50.
haha
Fa50 of the Philippines also beats JAZ GRIPPEN in a dogfight during pitch black exercise in Australia vs THAILAND airforce
Dog fight is very seldom in modern fighter jet battle. A lot of times a fighter jet is toast even before it sees its enemy. F22 will destroy FA50 before FA50 sees F22 on its radar.
The F-15 probably got killed quite a few times during training. The real world scoreboard, however..
The whole point of training is that...
The point of Top Gun was show up there in your flaming new F-14 (or F-4 bebore or Hornet after) and then you get your ass handed to you by F-5s and A-4s ... then you learn how to properly fight
F-15 vs F-5E/F in the 1970s was 50/50 exchange ratio out at Nellis.
@@LRRPFco52 Remove synthetic ROE and it turns into 100/0 magically. Raptors and Eagles always have to engage with one arm tied behind their backs or the other participants dont learn anything of value in DACT, or worse, wind up with a low confidence level in a real world package. No amount of F-5's win against 8 eagles in an eagle wall at 30K+ until the eagles are winchester.
@@BasedF-15Pilot Yup. Most of those were BFM set-ups in the 1970s, assuming earlier AIM-7 employment parameters with the AIM-7F had forced a closure into IR missile WEZ, followed by WVR merge. We were at Edwards at the time, ended up on integration of AIM-120 later in the 1980s on F-16C/D Block 30G and up.
Current F-15 kill record is 108/0 last I added the Syrian campaign shoot-downs from Mudhens intercepting some drones.
@@BasedF-15Pilot How was the F-22 handicapped? You don’t even know. For all you know the FA-50 could have tanks too.
And for the real life: the F-15 only has that record because it fought duds that were not even carrying missiles, or only antiquated ones. Half the kills are from the IDF. The rest is mostly shooting MiG-21s, under-armed Mirage F1s and helicopters. In a conflict against a decent air force the record would be nowhere near that…
Not a of details from the article or the photo provided… another possibility is the F-22 role during the exercise as a “PLAAF” aggressor pilot, mimicking PLAAF’s flying behavior, and see if the FA-50 can engage a potential PLAAF fighter…
Gonky with "I'd love to fly it" totally not trying to get a job
I am a Filipino and i know that fa50 is no mch against f22 .. Thanks for help
It will always come down to the pilot. Period. Snort Snodgrass, may he RIP, was a kickass pilot because he knew how to fly the Tomcat and he always followed a simple rule. If you weren't cheating, you weren't trying hard enough. Vietnam ace Steve Ritchie has gone on record saying that if he and other experienced guys flew the Mig-17 and 21 against the F-4, that Phantom loss rate would've been a whole lot worse. The American Volunteer Group flying the P-40 Warhawk, which on paper was vastly inferior to the fighters of the Japanese Air Force during World War 2, stopped the JAF in its tracks. The list goes on and on.
Stats on paper don't mean jack. It will ALWAYS come down to the driver.
Exactly - the whole "on paper" is of course super relevant - when retaining to a real world "no restictions" war situation! But training against each other, in a setup with training goals to achieve, having and uninformed "fanboy" mentalities to loud mouth just shows how little a lot of people know about the stuff they comment on
Paf pilots are trained in the USA, proud of them. so I rest my case people.
Welp, there’s a lot the article leaves out, we don’t know if the Raptor was starting from a defensive position plus it’s got 2 tanks on which wouldn’t help. Best news is that the Philippine Air Force is finally using a new fighter. I love the F-8 and F-5 but a modern replacement for those has been a very long time coming.
Wait, the media/internet is wrong?
it's not a plane it's a pilot!
recently PH FA50 fough JAS gripen by thailand airforce won 10-7
No matter how superior a fighter is, it can always be beaten by superior numbers. I doubt the Philippine AF has a lot of jets but they might have been able to gang up on a single Raptor and get him run out of airspeed and altitude and ammo.
If this is true Its a result of effective training by a good US instructor to PAF
Well when your tactics are based on a balloon... No just kidding. Maby... No really, there is still pilot in the cockpit. And maby f-22 guys sometimes have smaller in the pit as they are used to. *Didnt say this, wasnt me* *whistling*
Obviously the kill was never passed to the PAF pilot pre merge.
This is not about the fighter jet, its the skill of the pilots
Yes very good Philippine nice yan maraming bansa ang hahanga saating😅
magyayabang nanamn
@@thanatosGAMINGtv Ayan ngnam kapwa Pinoy lang din Ang ng lalait
I just can't understand how a jet that can(essentially) pivot on its axis lose at BFM from a jet that needs a radius to turn.
Doesnt work just like that
I don't think they max perform the f-22 in these training flights. Getting to train against thrust vectoring jets is the objective. No 98mph fast balls in tee ball. so to speak.
Pivoting in place kills your airspeed.
@@Gearparadummies Yeah,I guess the energy factor changes things
How much more f d filipino pilots are flying d f-16 or any other fighter jets
Ffs, yhe raptor was told to start from a defensive position, keep both kf its fuel tanks, and to be going slow, it was a position and still to mimick a different aircraft, also the offensive postion is.something you shouldnt lose anyways, meaning id the F/A-50 lost a advantagous postion its that pilots fault and he needs to improve.
Any proof you care to provide for that bs?
@jeromeportier4914 bs, are you fucking blind? You can clearly see in the video the Raptor is going slow asf and still carrying the two fuel tanks, even the higher resolution images shows the fuel tanks, "bs" birch maybe get your two fucking eyes checked, fucking morons like yourself piss me off.
Legendary iron eagle FA50 Same like our Philippines eagle brave and accurately to fly"
That's only the pilot who manage it....
Just like Dom Toretto
I dont think the Americans will allow their F-22 to lose even in a mock-up dogfight. The prestige of the F-22 is at stake. So I believe it legit.
F22 is a great fighter jet, its just a simulation or an exercise... but definitely it's not the fighter jet, it's the pilot! "MAVERICK" love the movie hehe
mabuhay PAL
#❤ PHILIPPINES
Its not really about the US F22 raptor getting killed by FA50 in a simulation. Its always about the Philippine Airforce able to surpass expectation that filipinos are proud off. PAF is not bragging about it, surely it is the surprised expectator including random media who thought that PAF cannot pull off such accomplishment in training or worst can actually fly a plane you know. So let it go.Give it a break and just be glad you have a competent ally.
in NO BVR situation, if F-22 pilot is new bee , FA-50 pilot is instructor..... it may be FA-50 win the game
Nah, Filipino figther pilot are just crazy.
Its not the plane....its the pilot.
Geez.. it's the Pilot not the plane. Amigos. Beside PAF Pilots are trained at Top Gun and they trained almost every year with USAF.
Well the F22 was not unleashed fully. It was a simulation designed to candy boost the morale of our Phil Air Force with no force. But let us see if the Raptor was given a no-holds-barred ROE.
It’s not plane,,its a pilot
Isnot a Plane its a Pilot.
The F-22 is considered a superior fighter for a number of reasons, though not it’s practical intended use, it has a lot of maneuverability advantages in a dogfight with other Fighters, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be beat. A F-16 fighter can beat it in a dogfight, which is more about the Pilots than the Aircraft. If the F-22 Pilot makes some mistakes in the circle fight, the F-16 Pilot can capitalize on those Pilot errors and actually end up winning the battle. A lot of the time though the F-22 Fighter wins those simulations, but if the F-16 Pilot is on his game, and the F-22 Pilot slips up, then he can get him in his sights. It can be done, but odds favor the F-22 quite highly.
Does it makes the USAF feel stupid ?
ACTUALLY THATS FOR THE SECOND TIME,, ITS THE PILOT NOT THE PLANE,,
Enquiring minds want to know, what did Gonky say to get a video demonetized?
I think that was the one when he mentioned Chuck Yeager, and the YT bots thought he said the n word.
@@crazypetec-130fe7💀
@@crazypetec-130fe7😂
Initial instinct tells me,..
Lockheed wanted some free advertising
of f-50, for eventual ATT program.
(As Lockheed owns partial rights)
And given how awesome the t7a is..
It’s a training exercise. No other plane to teach the Philippine Air Force for tactical maneuvers than the F22. They are supposed to win to push those PAF pilots harder despite of just having FA50s. What more the PAF can do once they got the F16s or the Gripens. Other than that, bloggers just hyped it up for the views. 🇵🇭
some of them are using F5 old days
Anytime it becomes a close in dog fight the more agile fighter will win. An FA50 has similar DNA to an F16. There is a reason why F16s are still active. An F22 will have bigger payloads and is more lethal from distance when the enemy won’t even know its there. The simulation was a dog fight in close range which is smaller, agile, lighter fighter territory. In a real life battle, those FA50s won’t even get a chance to get a radar or a visual on both an F22 and F35.
Itz not the plane no matter how hightech that plane is .....itz the pilot
lets just be happy that they're allies lol
Did an F-22 really get shot down if that were even the case, that was a rare moment plus I bet there was something that potentially caused that. Could the pilot possibly have been sidetracked?
When you are locked/painted no matter F22 or F35 then you are dead already
Ev3n jas gripen captured by f50 of phil not only f22 raptors
all filipinos who glorified that the paf fa50 claims "splashed" a kill on a raptor or any fighter jets or an fa50 can actually toe-on-toe on any modern fighters in this excercise is watching too much movies. Filipinos dont know that these excercise is on "easy mode walk in the park" not on actual "actual engagement of enemy jets". Strengths, Capabilities will always proven in an actual war.
😂
In a dogfight everything is fair game.
I’m Filipino I know the raptor can finish the fight without being detected
In exercises, the F-22 is defanged. It is not allowed to use its advantages for BVR.
Lame, FA50 got lucky accept the failure and learn from it. That's how you get better
@@DOI_ARTSwere you there
For me i think F-22 Raptor fighter jet is not fit for dogfight vs. small fighter jet aircraft.! ☠🇵🇭⚔
Lakas ng hangin
Thst is what so called it's not the plane but the pilot....
Its possible in dogfight scenario but when it comes to real world BVR Engagement the F22 will swallow the FA50
sometimes its not about the fighter jet but its a pilot
The problem is the DEI hire.