The Forest Temple, The BEST in Design - Dungeon Design In Zelda (Ocarina Of Time)
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2024
- There's good reason the Forest Temple is my favourite. It's a masterclass in dungeon design. Here's why.
0:00 - Intro
0:33 - Getting to The Dungeon
6:24 - Progression
17:03 - The Dungeon Boss - Розваги
Imagine if the Moblins were that big in other games. Charging at you in Breath of the Wild as if they had Pegasus Boots
Forest Temple even after all of these years is still arguably the best dungeon in the Zelda series.
I just realized, shooting the arrow to rotate the room was the same as Stone Tower Temple. Love how they reused the concept, but even more
the forest temple was a micro challenge while STT evolved it further and then the sand ship continued the dungeon evolution with the reversible switch that changes the entire layout. i have said before that STT and the sand ship do make the best uses of their dungeon changing gimmick even if the layouts are simplistic or linear.
I just found this series and I’m hooked. The Zelda dungeon is a quintessential model for level design in the entire industry.
Mark Brown’s Boss Keys series was fantastic, but I found he focused way too tightly on his “key/lock” graphs, which oversimplified all that goes in to the experience of a dungeon. I appreciate your series for diving into the aesthetics and pacing of the dungeons.
I love how the poe sisters train you to fight phantom ganon, first showing you about enemies in paintings, then illusory enemies. It's just a shame that nothing trains you to think of energy tennis as being a thing, heck jabu jabu's enemies trained you NOT to attack electrical things.
It makes me wonder what The Forest Temple was used for. Especially since the boss room doesn't have the Kokiri symbol or the Forest Medallion symbol, but the TRIFORCE! We know Din and Nayru were more actively involved with Ganondorf and Zelda in the beta, could Farore have had some interaction with Link here? Since all of the Triforce holders ended up being more closely associated with their goddess, shouldn't Link also have some sort of relationship with his? Farore is heavily associated with this area anyways. Green + Green = Green maths
I've often wondered this too. It gives me the impression of some kind of fortress by some of the designs on the outside but then what are they defending in the forest?
what i would do if i redesigned oot is have the forest temple as a completely different dungeon. instead, this would be a lesser dungeon renamed the lost manor and it could still keep the theme of illusions and skull woods. also what is interesting about the forest temple is that most enemies are undead. outside of the spiders, most of the forest monsters are found in the courtyard and the wolfos duo in the main entrance. the mini-bosses and phantom ganon are either undead or spirits.
Fighting the Stalfos was a BOSS FIGHT, in the 97 Zelda demo
I agree, this Dungeon just gets everyrhing right.
The difficulty, the layout, the design, the atmosphere, the amazing music it's just sooo good.
What's even better is that, considering that this is the intended first adult-dungeon, it is a perfect hybrid of the others and gives u a little bit of everything that is to come.
It has combat, like the fire temple, it has a confusing layout and illusions that needs you to be aware of where you are and what ur actions in one room can do in another, like the water temple.
It has a really creepy atmosphere like the shadow temple.
And it has a clear objective (the poe sisters and their flames) about what to look for like with Nabooru and the gauntlets in the spirit temple.
And also a boss that is directly connected and sent by Ganondorf like the spirit temple.
I can't really find a parallel to anything more mechanical to the spirit temple.
But this might be more because the spirit temple (aside from the time travel thing) doesn't really have anything unique that it focuses on.
(Or it has one and I just didn't notice)
The theme is just so relaxing and eerie at the same time, when I have to work on something, I just put the 30 minute long theme on YT and loop it.
One of the best songs in the series imho
I loved this dungeon. I think this is where I got the love for the forest themed dungeons. The music is, I think, some of koji’s best work. Alongside with TP, and MM
I really like how you appreciate this important aspect of "interconnectivity". I made a dungeon top 10 a long time ago and scored 5 different categories of all the zelda dungeons, one of those: interconnection :) its quite old, but maybe you would enjoy. Thanks for the great video!
The Forest Temple is my favourite temple in the game for sure. Aesthetically, mechanically, and thematically it rules. And Phantom Ganon is such a great boss fight.
Slapping video as usual
These comments nourish me
Ha! I was the first like! Boom!
Though this dungeon drove me to madness, at least its score matched perfectly! This dungeon's theme has shown up as a #1 for multiple Zelda song lists for me. Most thematic, eeriest, scariest, etc
3:48 link not being "old enough" was a really dumb writing decision. It could have been "Link, you are the hero, but ganon used his power to seal you away, and only now, after 7 years, have we been able to break that seal. we hope we are not too late." that would have been so much better, I think.
He wasn’t old enough though. One shot of little energy ball knocked Link on his ass when confronting Ganondorf at the front of the gate. Ganondorf laughed him off, he was brave but physically wasn’t ready
yes of course. but maybe writing wise, it would have been better for link to ACTUALLY get wrecked and sealed by ganon in the temple of time, than the good guy rauru to artificially seal you away and TELL you "you weren't old enough." it's always better to experience it than be told it. imagine if Ganon showed up at the temple of time and was like "you again?" and you pull your sword out, and he laughs, and starts beating you hard no matter how hard you try. then at the last minute he's about to kill you, and THEN Rauru steps in and teleports you away to save you. that would have been much better. think of the Mega Man X Sequelitis, when you fight Vile at the beginning. as a player you really experience Vile's power because you don't know if you're doing damage, and inevitably get wrecked even though you had the chance to try your best. letting the player fail, createe more potency, than the player not even being given the chance to try, which feels more "babysittery". you mention ganon knocking down link, in a cutscene, but again, if thee player actually fought ganon and failed, it would have been better and more impactful. it's better for the player to feel "oh crap i was NOT ready for that" than not be given the chance and being told "you were not ready for that", which again feels more like a nanny than an adventure game. @@ChaosTheory9
9:20 - So fun fact: When I played the game before, there were instances where I'd jump slash and they'd die instantly. I thought it was because their HP was enough for one jump slash, but nope! I was hitting their tails without realizing it! Hit their tail = instant death.
I definitely agree that the Forest Temple of OoT is one of my favorite dungeons. However, MY one (and kinda major) complaint is the boss fight.
My opinion is that (with few exceptions), the dungeon's boss should capture the identity of the dungeon, not only tactically, but thematically too, especially when it comes to element-themed dungeons, such as the Forest Temple; unfortunately, Phantom Ganon fails to do just that. For same-game comparisons, King Dodongo and Volvagia both feel very in place in their respective dungeons, both being fire-breathing beasts residing in fire-themed dungeons. Gohma, being a large (spider?) feels in place when inside a giant tree. Twinrova, being of Gerudo origin, feel in place at the Spirit Temple, being a Gerudo structure in the desert. Of course, the real Ganondorf feels in place at his own castle. Comparatively, Phantom Ganon just feels so out of place in the Forest Temple.
And for a same-character comparison, Phantom Ganon DOES feel more in place in Windwaker at both Forsaken Fortress and Ganon's Tower (though maybe moreso the latter), since they're both places under Ganon's direct influence.
Ah, the Forest Temple. What can I say about this dungeon that hasn't already been said before? Quite a bit actually, since this comment is a lot longer than my previous ones. Fair warning!
I'll admit, when I played through this dungeon not too long ago, I was seriously confused on where to go at times, and it was all because of that gosh-darn twisted hallway. Not to mention that this dungeon was a pretty big difficulty spike in general, although that is to be expected now that Link is an adult and has much greater challenges ahead of him. I think those two factors admittedly soured my view of this dungeon.
With that said, there's a lot to like about this place. The Stalfos you encounter put up a decent challange in combat, even if you fight just one too many in my opinion. The atmosphere and music are also absolutely phenomenal, and easily some of the best this game has to offer, only tied with one or two other temple(s) that I'll talk about later. Koji Kondo knocks it out of the park once again! The thought of such a large, dark and lonely complex being tucked away in the deepest depths of the forest that you spent your entire childhood growing up in is such a haunting image, and the music perfectly embodies this.
Speaking of haunting, the Poe Sisters are perhaps the defining feature of this dungeon. The vast majority of the dungeon sees you hunting them down and putting them to rest once and for all. They're also pretty unique mini-bosses compared to the ones we see in subsequent temples (except for You Know Who in the Water Temple and the 3rd Iron Knuckle in the Spirit Temple). I often wonder who they were in life and what their presence in the dungeon means. My theory is that long ago, four sisters inhabited a mansion deep in the forest, but after each of them passed, the mansion fell into disrepair and became the now mostly abandoned Forest Temple. The sisters lingered on as poes, and during the seven years in which Ganondorf corrupted the Sacred Realm and conquered Hyrule, they eventually came under his command. Whether they were corrupted by Ganondorf's dark influence or merely served him out of fear, I'm not sure. However, it's most likely that Ganondorf himself visited the Forest Temple at some point, which is when he created the entity that would subsequently rule over it, Phantom Ganon.
Now, I haven't talked about the previous bosses as much, but I have to give a special mention to Phantom Ganon. This guy is arguably one of the best bosses in the entire game, and for me at least, was a big step up in challenge from even Barinade. Not only is his design badass and intimidating, but the fight is a great preview of what is to come when you face off against the real Ganondorf, even if Magical Lightning Tennis™ is kind of a goofy concept for a fight. In fact, I'd say this fight was actually harder than the fight with Ganondorf himself! Ganon was probably just mad that he created a more powerful version of himself and Link still managed to beat it, hence why he banished it to The Gap Between Dimensions. At least that's how I see it.
Overall though, I feel like if I ever replay this game again, I'll probably appreciate the Forest Temple just that little bit more. As it stands though, it's definitely one of the most memorable dungeons in Ocarina of Time, and for good reason.
Great video man. This game brings back so many memories. It was a mind blowing experience back in the day.
Does anyone else die a little when he says vague or southern?
😖 Love the content. This series is bomb
Sorry. I’m Canadian and that’s how we say things here 🙃
Otherwise, glad you are enjoying the videos!
Just wait until you hear me say “lava” 😭
Another awesome video!! This temple has always been my favorite and brings the nostalgia to a peak! Seriously the music makes it! Really enjoying these :)
Definitely my 2nd favourite dungeon after Stone Tower Temple. Having looked at The Forest Temple Rooms - especially the rooms with things all over the place/twisted corridors, I'm reminded of some similarities in design with the Winchester Mystery House in California and what the house was supposedly used for (keeping bad spirits out apparently) - perhaps this was inspiration for the Forest Temple?
I was completely shocked to realise this channel doesn't have over 100K subscribers, this is some quality content!!
The Forest Temple is as beautiful as your "sweat" buttery voice!
Love it . Made me think of a good question for the mail bag 🤔
I think I’m your 500th subscriber! This is a great video and earned my sub! Now to watch more from you!
THANK YOU!!
Glad you enjoyed the video! There’s more to come :)
It took me a bit longer than normal to get this video checked off my watch list... Just a busy week 😝 It was well worth the wait!! I especially enjoyed your analysis of the music 😍 But I felt called out when you said the room at the bottom of the elevator was too easy. 8 year old me really struggled 😝 Another stellar video, my friend!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🎉💚
Ooops! Then again, that 20 year age difference is bound to make a difference
2 years late but keep that "gap between dimensions" in mind for when you get to phantom ganon in wind waker
I don't think that the Phantom Ganon in Wind Waker is the exact same entity as the one in OOT's Forest Temple tbh
Hey man, I've been binging your Dungeon Design playlist lately, those are great videos keep it up! I'm having a lot of fun watching them.
I would argue that the key in the first room isn't as easy to miss as people think:
1) After killing the two Wolfos you can clearly hear a skulltula on the wall, making you look at the vines and at that point you know they're a climbable element so that's what you naturally do after killing the spider!
Also if for some reason you forgot that vines can be climbed, missing the spider with the hookshot is gonna send you up there.
2) Even if OoT is your first Zelda game, you're into the 4th dungeon and at that point you know that you have to explore so you minimize your chances at getting stuck later on.
A room with nothing else than 2 Wolfos? Mmmh sounds suspicious! :)
If I were to improve upon this dungeon for the sake of improving the player's experience, I would've moved one of the locked doors (say, the 2nd locked door, encountered just before the 1st twisted hallway) to the entrance hall to the south, past the 1st Skulltula encounter.
Why? Well, nowhere else besides this dungeon was where the player had to deal with locked doors that could be unlocked with keys that the player collects. Therefore, I'd have forced the player to look for the key to the 1st locked door before allowing them to explore the rest of the dungeon from the central hub area.
Glad i watched this after just completing the dungeon.
Im missing a few heartpieces but heck phantom ganon on NSO atm is a bit of a pain. There's stillis some lag when it comes to attacks.
Best dungeon in the series
This dungeon is amazing
Just a side note that I couldn't fit into my other comment: before you approach the final Poe Sister, Meg, you can see that she's crying over the loss of her sisters. I always thought this was a really nice detail, and it makes me feel a little bad for "killing" the Poe Sisters. It may not be on the same emotional level as Majora's Mask, but Ocarina of Time sure does like to toy with your emotions at times.
Your so underrated!
something interesting i should of mentioned in the jabus belly video
all three of ganondorfs curses worked
even if link did help with the curses
deku tree
cursed with a giant bug eating it from the inside out
deku tree still died
jabu jabu
was cursed with a giant parasite
jabu jabu still died
gorons are harder to explain though
dodongos were supposedly extinct before oot ganondorf
looking at what gorons eat in both majoras mask and botw/totk
the rock sirloin (im not calling it rock roast. ew) looks like it might be fossilized meat
if the dodongos were extinct before the curse ganondorf placed on the gorons
and now they arent
rock siloin = fossilized dodongo meat?
which means the gorons could be facing a massive food shortage even after link cleared out dodongos cavern
forest is an interesting dungeon. it has proper backtracking and the poes are part of a larger challenge. master quest had more hi's and lows in terms of navigation but the song of time blocks do ruin the pacing. also you can use the iron boots and long shot to skip a room. i don't think it is the best dungeon in oot, but it is a good start for the adult link dungeons and still a very solid addition in the 3d games. one thing mq needed was more redeads. one was not enough.
Favorite dungeon theme in the game. Also in the first 5 minutes of this video, take a shot Everytime he says "time". You'll get cirrhosis of time
Also did you purposely hit the wall at 10:21?
Not sure what I was doing there tbh haha
This dungeon could've almost been a puzzle box with all the twisting corridors and rooms changing orientation. It's a missed opportunity that they should've done more with, it would've enhanced it quite a lot
I’m sure that what they achieved here was already pushing the n64 hardware to its limits but it sounds like what you have in mind was somewhat realized in Skyward Sword’s SkyKeep dungeon
Wait... Is link left handed!?
Yup! Historically, Link was always left handed with a few exceptions.
-The Wii version of Twilight Princess, but that’s just because they flipped the entire game. He’s lefty in the GameCube and Wii U versions.
-Skyward Sword because they wanted it to be more 1 to 1 with players holding the Wii remote (even though left handers exist IRL too)
-and most recently Breath Of The Wild even though they totally didn’t have to for any motion control related reasons.
:)
(:
It is not a dungeon at all. It doesn't look nothing like a temple. It looks more like a mansion in a forest cause it has Stairs backyard, a Mini Lake hallway.
wall. A mini bridge in the Backyard of the temple Basement Picture frames In the boss level. It's weird though.
The Zelda series uses the term “dungeon” to refer to its core levels that are separate from the hub/overworld. It’s not a literal medieval dungeon, but it’s a Zelda dungeon
Why is this dungeon so overated its not even that good
Have you considered that it actually is that good
@@CaptBurgerson hadn't thought about that