This is arguably the most pressing project for PT investment given ARS is already nearing capacity at peak. It’s really the critical enabler for future extensions and increased frequencies.
Hi Sam "All Politics is local" in the suburbs their is an average of one car for every adult. So the voters want faster / more convenient car travel. The suburban shopping centres with the parking at the shop door has diminished the importance of the Square Mile to most people in the Metropolitan Adelaide. The rate payers of the City of Adelaide will need to be funding the building of the rail tunnels. They are the ones who will benefit the most from such a project.
To be honest I think Adelaide needs new high frequency tram lines in the city which would connect to the Adelaide railway station. It would be great if they extended the trams to the east as well as it’s the only direction without trams, trains or the obahn.
Yes- street-trams have lots of advantages over buses. The problem being their footprint when it is at street level. Shop owners hate having trams tops outside their front doors. In Amsterdam, in the 1980's had buses and trams using the same lanes down the centre of the roads in the Centre of the city. Trams going down Norwood Parade received a resounding NO response at the election when the idea was put forward at an election. The O-Bahn Bus Tunnel under the East Parklands at one point was going to be a double-deck BaT tunnel (Bus and Tram). The Brisbane City Council Mayor has a BaT tunnel as one of his election promises back in the 2000's. In that case double deck was for BaT (Bus and Train). www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-deputy-mayor-says-bat-tunnel-demise-was-good-in-the-end-20170408-gvgpug.html Brisbane / Queensland now have opened the Cross River Rail Tunnel following the route proposed for the BaT tunnel crossriverrail.qld.gov.au Brisbane City is a low density city like Adelaide. Many of the train tunnels in Manhattan are double deck train tunnels. The 63rd Street Tunnel is a double-deck subway and railroad tunnel under the East River between the boroughs of Manhattan and Queens in New York City. Opened in 1989, it is the newest of the East River tunnels, as well as the newest rail river crossing in the New York metropolitan area. The upper level of the 63rd Street Tunnel carries the IND 63rd Street Line of the New York City Subway. The lower level carries Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) trains to Grand Central as part of the East Side Access project. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/63rd_Street_Tunnel
I have an idea that would suit Adelaide very well. Introducing the Adelaide Crosstown Line. Under my idea, a new Rail tunnel would be built connecting the O-Bahn at its northern portal at Park Road, through a set of Twin Bored tunnels to its Southern Portal, at South Terrace, where it would connect up with the Glenelg Tram line. Two Brand new Underground Stations would be built in the Adelaide CBD. One would be built beneath Adelaide Station and would be called Adelaide Central Station. A second station, called Victoria Square Station would be built at the intersection of Wright and Queen William Streets just south of Victoria Square. Changes would be made on both the O-Bahn Busway and the Glenelg line Tram as part of the Adelaide Crosstown Line with both corridors being upgraded and converted to Heavy Rail. Infill Stations would be added along the O-Bahn Busway Corridor at both Gilberton on Stephen Terrace, Marden at Lower Portrush Road and Holden Hill at Grand Junction Road. In addition, all Bus Stations along the O-Bahn Busway would be upgraded to Train Stations, including Tea Tree Plaza Station, which would be entirely rebuilt with an Elevated Train Station above the existing Bus Station and would be the North Eastern Terminus of the Adelaide Crosstown Line. Meanwhile, along the Glenelg Tram line, Selected Tram Stops will need their platforms lengthened and upgraded to Train Stations. Meanwhile, Most Tram Stops within Close Proximity to these upgraded stations will have to be closed to speed up journey times as well as being too close to other nearby stations along the line. The Racecourse and Morphett Road Stops would be Merged and a Brand new Interchange would be built with the existing Goodwood Train Station, where a Track Connection for Transferring Rolling Stock between the Adelaide Crosstown Line and the rest of the Adelaide Rail Network as part of this Project. In addition, the stretch of Tramway along Jetty Road Between Brighton Road and Moseley Square Tram Stops would be Abandoned with Brighton Road being completely rebuilt as the South Western Terminus of the Adelaide Crosstown Line. The Adelaide Crosstown line would speed up journeys on the Glenelg Tram line, get many Trams, Buses and cars off the Streets in the Adelaide CBD and would also solve the problem with the O-Bahn Busway and lack of Public Transport Access in the Northeastern Suburbs. Although it would be expensive, it would be worth the money and would completely overhaul and transform Adelaides Public Transport Network. Other cities, like Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne have left these types of projects too late and are only now just building them. If we don't build the Adelaide Crosstown Line by the mid-2030s, Adelaide will end up with the same problems Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane are facing Right now. We need to have the infrastructure ready to last and be accessible for Future Generations to come. #ADELAIDE CROSSTOWN LINE
Please see I think your idea might be similar to Adelaide NEAPTR Transport Plans 1978 Light Rail Victoria Square to Modbury evolved to O-Bahn. Below is a link to my video on the topic ua-cam.com/video/4Y6Ay5c_7T4/v-deo.html The Adelaide O-Bahn currently has a tunnel under the East CBD Parkland. The Marshall Government's plans to extend the O-Bahn to Golden Grove went the same was as their plan for a Rail Tunnel under the CBD. The longest O-Bahn is in Oxfordshire County in the U.K. Paris, Marsaiiles & Montreal Underground trains are rubber tired, curb guided vehicles. In Paris most of the lines are also driverless trains. Might I suggest it would be better to think of an underground train to the Eastern Suburbs and then under Adelaide Hills to the Ambleside and Mt Barker.
Hi @@electro_sykes I suggest Light rail and Heavy Rail are basically the same thing. In the USA Light Rail is called Street Cars. The tram in Port Adelaide to Alberton was the same gauge as the railways and used some of the SAR tracks. At that time the SAR had tracks running through the Township along the streets. The problem with steel wheels on iron tracks is they slip if the gradient is greater than 1%. They use sand to help grip the track. The O-Bahn from Paradise to TTP has to go up a very steep incline alongside the Hope Valley Reservoir probably requiring an inclined tunnel for that section of the track. The O-Bahn was originally intended to end at Klemzig. That section of the track was designed to be easily converted to Light Rail / Tram / Street Car with overhead power cables At that time we had electric buses (trolley bus) running from Port Adelaide to Burnside via the CBD
Correction. Cambridgeshire County in the U.K. has the longest O-Bahn style curb-guided Busway. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway Stations on the Cambridgeshire bus-way do not have the passing lanes that allow "express" buses to pass "local" buses. This causes problems when passengers taking time to enter a bus and following buses cannot go-around the "problem bus" ua-cam.com/video/a-bGGxDhVks/v-deo.html They also use double deck buses to increase capacity. Sadly there are a number of sharp bends in the track and has caused a few accidents as buses go around the bends at higher speed. . Much of the track uses the right of ways and stations from the former train lines. Sections of those railway lines were single track and the bus-way has not attempted to duplicate the track in those historic locations. Bus-ways allow for one-seat trips between locations away from the tracks if ticket validation is done on the vehicle rather than on the "platform". The bus routes offered by Cambridge County Council (CCC) are operated by different contractors and passengers are NOT currently offered a single fare ticket across the County. This is contrast to "London County Council" (LCC) where passengers can get a single "ticket" when moving between underground and above ground railways operated by various contractors. In Greater Londno this involves passengers Tap/On and Tap/Off for each leg of the train journey. They gave differential prices as passengers move been the zones. ua-cam.com/video/ZvZHnerPlAY/v-deo.html We already do this Tap/On and Tap/Off in Greater Sydney and Greater Perth LCC has had a number of name changes and is currently called the "Greater London Authority" (GLA)
In addition to this, all level crossings along the Glenelg line would be removed and stub tunnels would also be built north of Adelaide Station to allow for a future connection to the Gawler line near north Adelaide.
Thanks for your thoughts! This is probably the cheapest way of doing the project, but I'm wondering if this is the best in terms of actual destinations served? Remember this project will completely change the city and have lasting implications, you want to get it right. With a tunnel boring machine you aren't as constrained by where you can go as with cut and cover, and if we take the Sydney Metro tunneling cost figure of $100million per km and say this tunnel will be no more than 9 km, similar to the new Perth airport line which cost 1.8bn with 3 new underground stations. So the project could be done for similar amounts billion which is likely not insane money but stops more useful locations than a cut and cover cheap version which will cause a hell of a lot more disruption, to do it properly and be able to offer stops at Rundle Mall, central North Adelaide with capacity to take the football and cricket fans, and proper interchanges with the Belair line, Adelaide central, trams at several points, and perhaps a future East-West Metro, plus removing tonnes of level crossings and avoiding the chaos in Adelaide rail yard. The tunnel could start at Ovingham, through a stop in the centre of North Adelaide (repurpose the current North Adelaide station), Central Railway terminal, Rundle Mall, Victoria Square south, Unley and Goodwood.
The greatest population density is in the Eastern Suburbs so any underground tunnel should go through that area. Adelaide Airport should be added to you list. This current version of the N-S Tunnel turns its back on the Adelaide Airport. The Richmond Road expansion goes East to the Keswick bottleneck above the railway line. If Richmond Road were to be expanded to the West would run straight into the Airport In Brisbane they wanted to build the BAT a cross -urban tunnel with Buses on the top deck And Trains on the lower deck of the tunnel This has a number of underground stations near sports venues, hospitals and other locations of high pedestrian use. brisbanedevelopment.com/bat-bus-and-train-tunnel/ Campbell Newman was the 2012-2015 Liberal Premier of the State (Formerly the Mayor to the City of Brisbane) when Julia Gillard was the Labor Prime Minister (2010- 2013). Tony Abbott (2013-2015) was against Canberra granting money for capital projects. The BCC could not get funding for the project from Canberra and Campbell lost the 2015 election. City of Brisbane is currently building a Rail Only tunnel along the same route as the BAT tunnel. Called the Cross River Rail Project. crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/about/ There are a number of underground stations.
@@Highbury5089 Yes I agree and I see what you're saying, but I was thinking you would do that in a separate project - construct an East-West fully automatic light Metro line from West of the Airport, stops at Airport, interchange with heavy rail at Mile End, through the East of the City to interchange with the new underground rail link we're discussing here as well as the city tram line, then continue off out East of the city. Future extensions could have two branches, one to the South from West Beach which then interchanges with Glenelg tram then the Seaford line at Warradale and the Tonsley branch at Tonsley; and a second branch North from West Beach and either interchange with the Grange line at Grange to continue North to Port Adelaide or take over the Grange line not necessarily on the same alignment up to Woodville.
@@Highbury5089 Tunnels - you might be able to do those cut and cover for large sections to cut right back on costs. If you did the Airport line as a surface level light rail it would be slower and impacted by other services but it may be more appropriate, I don't know. Another wildcard option I thought about for connecting the Airport was as a radial line - a cheap no-frills tunnelled frequent light metro, Nuremberg U-Bahn style radial line from Goodwood to the Airport then Croydon, Islington and Klemzig O-Bahn. A second stage could continue South through Norwood, Burnside, Frewville and Unley to Goodwood and make it a full circle line. Once the North-South underground railway connection between Gawler and Seaford trains is done allowing much higher frequencies, and electrification of the other lines is on, a radial line would make an enormous difference to travelling in the city and be a game-changer. What do you think?
@@BigBlueMan118 A tunnel would be best Brisbane has the Airport Link tunnel that private enterprize built for buses and road traffic. It runs from Herston to the Airport + more.. Sadly when the free introductory period expired the number of paying customers go so low the company went broke and the investors lost their money. State & Federal funding for these projects is best.
Hi Neil, I don't see the two issues as mutually exclusive but in fact should be complimentary. The situation is not that different to Auckland (Pop 1.7m) and the Britomart station installing a modified small loop serving the CBD. The question is: Is it possible to excavate the tunnel eastward from Adelaide station before diving down below other CBD high rise foundations? My concern is not just Adelaide station but provision for regional rail in the future. If multiple crossovers (Forgive me as I'm not a rail person but have a very big interest in rail infrastructure around Australia) are to be avoided the standard gauge line north from Parklands needs to cross under broad gauge tracks to enter Adelaide station on the northside at 2 platforms to be made available for regional trains which the SA Government must do to be of value to travelers. It is pointless having regional rail finish at Parklands. The same applies for the southbound standard gauge line. I'm not sure if the Torrens floods at this location? When these grade separation works are completed then trains can run to the Adelaide Hills & Port Augusta. DaveU
The North - South rail tunnel in the Adelaide CBD was not my idea. It was the election promise by the Marshall Opposition at the March 17, 2018 election. Only problem is they did not say where the rail stations would be located. As you can see I created this video 4 weeks after that election. So I was postulating various alternatives They actually promised that the would "investigate" building a rail tunnel. We have the problem that the State of SA's Dunstan Government "sold" the main-line country railways to the Whitlam Commonwealth Government based in Canberra. Tasmania also "sold" their's at the same time to the Commonwealth. The minor country rail lines in S.A. are still owned by the S.A. government but have were leased to various private companies including G&W Australia. Most of these leases have been abandoned and the rolling stock has been sold. Some parts to the Adelaide Railways freight train lines around Port Adelaide were sold to private companies that included WesFamers, formerly a WA Coal Company that had lots of cash that they used to purchase Coles and Myer, The Keating Government gave grants for them to be converted from Broad Gauge to Standard Gauge. A short portion of that freight track from Dry Creek Junction (actually a triangle) to the Port River is dual gauge - Dry Creek
@@Highbury5089 Hi Neil. Yes I see your direction and video made back in 2018. It's unlikely the north-South rail tunnel will go ahead given the alternatives around the Adelaide Hills (GlobeLink) was squashed with a return of 8 cents for every dollar spent. Tunnels are very expensive but somehow the North-South Road tunnel (10km) is? But then Melbourne is eliminating level crossings (75?) with bridges which are much cheaper. Hence this maybe a cheaper (not necessarily better) option for Adelaide South Australia has done badly with Government sell-off's whereas NZ & Tasmania have fared much better with their Governments understanding below rail obligations provide a community benefit. For SA this must be the approach into the future. Freight & 3 interstate passenger services must pass through the Adelaide city area on the standard gauge. Providing regional rail services on the same line will quickly fill up any gaps in the time slots. Duplication will be needed, above if not below ground, which will require electric locomotives. Many questions to answer. Maybe part of the answer is to continue the proposed freight & passenger tunnel under the Adelaide Hills under the city as well but it all depends on making at least some economic sense. DaveU
@@dhuphill The whole point of the election proposal n 2018 was to get rid of the "Terminal" nature of the Adelaide Railway Station (ARS) at North Terrace. At a terminus they have to park the vehicles somewhere when they are not immediately needed OR they are not scheduled to immediately leave OR the drivers need to have a toilet break. I rode on a train from Woodville Station (Outer Harbor Line) one weekday afternoon and found that it took us to Platform 9 at ARS. Platform 9 is the where trains on the Gawler Line depart. As I remember Outer Harbor trains depart from Platform 8. So they are attempting to make those 2 lines behave as one line. This is a way of getting rid of the problems of having the trains "terminate" at ARS. This will stop happening when the Gawler Line is electrified. At the moment they are forced to park 3 "layover" electric trains on a line alongside the RAH. The other alternative is to run "ghost electric trains" into the city to get enough carriages to handle the afternoon rush period. In a number of my videos I show these "ghost trains" 6 cars of 2 electric trains. One of my suggestions would be to put an underground railway station(s) under the gardens of Government House on North Terrace. 100 years ago a railway tunnel was built from Platform 9 of the ARS under King William Road and under the northern gardens Government House on its way to the Jubilee Building (demolished by the Univ of Adelaide to build a car park, Arts Building & Law Building). The tunnel is still there but the openings at each end have been closed off
I have looked at the Britomart station you mention. It is now seen as a great success because of the people using the trains. ua-cam.com/video/Q68ok_aHib/v-deo.html Its cost of $NZ 4.4 billlion is a lot more money than what the Marshall Government were planning in their election promise in 2018 for the cross city underground rail tunnel. It is years I have been to Auckland. Loved staying at Mt Eden when I was young I am thinking that Busways plus Multi-Level streets many be the best way to introduce high capacity public transport in the current developments in our CBD.
@@Highbury5089 Yes terminating trains at a central station for commuter rail is fraught with complications when space is at a premium. Any line passing through a loop must connect with another line (or more than one) but in the process must: a) Pass through the Adelaide central station for connection to other transit services. b) service ALL or most of the CBD to as far as possible give commuters access to a single transport mode. Such an investment has a life of 100 years so must project forward patronage etc 100 years, not 20 or 50 years. This is a once in 4 life times investment. Any short cuts now South Australia will pay for with congestion and half-baked fix-it solutions later. The other major consideration is as I say Regional rail, platforms at Adelaide station freed up by a through commuter service must be kept for regional services (both broad gauge [Adelaide Hills & Roseworthy] & standard Gauge [North & South lines]). The opportunity will not come again! Yes I see the alignment of that tunnel under north terrace. It shows up on Railpage's 'Hairylegs Google Maps overlay. I presume its a single tunnel? The University city campus would be a great destination giving better access to tertiary education. Although the O-Bahn transit system seems to have been a success I wonder at the long term viability with densification of inner Nth-east suburbs? Maybe that tunnel could lead rail services to replace the O-Bahn? The alignment of the Adelaide rail underground will be determined by the minimum curvature possible (without squealing), patronage and a host of other parameters.
Hi Melbourne's Metro Tunnel "Train travel will be easier with more trains able to carry more people on the Sunbury, Cranbourne and Pakenham lines. A dedicated tunnel from Kensington to South Yarra will create a direct connection between the west and the south east." * twin 9km rail tunnels from the west of the city to the south east as part of a new Sunbury to Cranbourne/Pakenham line * building 5 new underground stations: Arden, Parkville (under Grattan Street), State Library (at the northern end of Swanston Street), Town Hall (at the southern end of Swanston Street) and Anzac (under the Domain Interchange on St Kilda Road). The 2 stations under Swanston Street will be directly connected to the City Loop at Melbourne Central and Flinders Street stations * High Capacity Signalling to enable more frequent services * train/tram interchange between Anzac Station and the Domain Interchange * upgrades on other suburban rail lines with benefits across the network * safety features including platform screen doors. Capital Costs ranging from $9.5nb to $1010.2bn bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel NO Sadly the Marshall Government did not explain the plan for a rail tunnel under the CBD to link the North and South rail lines. After 18 months the delete the information from their website.
Hi DarkAngel2347 Here is a useful link www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au Established on 26 November 2018 under the Infrastructure SA Act 2018, ISA is an independent advisory body. That means Infrastructure SA is not subject to Ministerial direction in the exercise of its functions or powers except as provided under this or any other Act. Under our legislation, we are obliged to act independently and we may arrive at a different opinion to other government agencies.
Interesting discussion and proposal. However, the route for an underground rail line through the CBD really needs to pass through the areas containing as many destinations for passengers as possible. I suspect that this is the reason why the strategic plan for ADELAIDE proposed a loop along North Terrace, Pulteney Street, Wakefield Street and Grote Street to the existing Seaford-Belair lines at Mile End. One issue with this route is that it will need to pass under privately owned buildings at the intersections of the above streets to achieve reasonable curves of 200 metres radius or so. Personally, I think that this option reaches the city destinations much betters, but the SA Government will need to move quickly to acquire 3D easements under those buildings. Unless something has happened very recently, those buildings are low rise, older buildings, and may not have any deep pile footings. If that is so, then it may be feasible to tunnel under those buildings, and of course any future re-development can be built to avoid the planned location of the tunnels. If such a loop were adopted, then it may be better to commence at the Adelaide Railway station itself. That means two tracks run through to the loop, while the others terminate - like Central Station, Sydney. It would be a tricky design and construction challenge to push the line through the existing Adelaide Railway Station, but that would reduce the length of the loop, and perhaps more importantly avoid the deep tunnelling required by starting the loop at the “gap” in the university buildings at City West. There is a water table under the CBD which should be avoided if possible. That was a problem when the Myer Centre was built. Keeping the loop at minimal depth will hopefully keep it above the water table and safe from an extreme flood of the River Torrens. Neil, thanks for all your commentary and video record of transportation issues in Adelaide - a great resource.
Stations on the Morphett Street Tunnel at Whitmore Square and Light Square / Hindley Street / North Terrace with a portal just north of Goodwood Station would allow Hills Line and Seaford/Tonsley Line trains to use the tunnel via Hamilton Blv (Wayville). This video shows all the development occurring around those 2 squares. The portal could also be just north of the Wayville Showgrounds Station and also reach under the Parklands to the Morohett Stt/South Tce intersection.. Adelaide is not Sydney, Melbourne, Perth or Brisbane where they have built many tunnels for buses and trains under the main streets in their Central Business Districts. Not much discussion about those projects seems to hit the media in Adelaide. The opposition to the O-Bahn Access Tunnel and the railway cutting for the Torrens Rail Flying Junction was eye-watering. An Upper House inquiry brought forth volumes of opposition from a vocal group who organised "Flash Crowds" of protesters. (So how I got onto their e-mail list and saw their correspondence. I asked them to remove my name: with no response). As you probably know, there are 2 "train gauges" in the New York City "Underground" (most of its tracks are above ground) The 1, 2 3 etc trains are shorter and narrow than the A,B, C etc trains because they historically use to run in shallow tunnels under the narrow and winding streets of the Financial District in Lower Manhattan. There were many sharp bends which made for low speeds, very unpleasant noise from the wheels and trains coming of the rails. Many of those tunnels are now no-longer in use and replace with straighter and deeper tunnels. Many are double-story tunnels, with 4 tracks, in the narrower streets such as Central Park West (8th Avenue) in mid-town Manhattan. The "loop" you describe in Adelaide CBD has a number of sharp bends, with all the disadvantages they bring, Building straight tunnels with gentle curves is a lot easier with boring machines which might get their first appearance in the North-South Road around Edwardstown. They same machines being used for roads as well at trains? Perhaps the could include the Emerson Rail Crossing in the program for tunnel boring machines?
I don't see how the Seaford line could be rerouted on to the Glenelg right of way without obviously removing tram services to Glenelg, but more importantly, re configuring the Goodwood junction. It makes no sense to go from that point as you lose the interchange with the Belair line at Goodwood. It would make much more sense to enter a tunnel in the west parklands and have it loop around under Hindmarsh Square and then north under King William, turning again under North Terrace to come out under the university buildings.
I have published another video showing a possible route under Wayville Showgrounds that gets into Morphett St at South Tce. ua-cam.com/video/meVW74u7fQ0/v-deo.html In this video I showed the route that was used in the past by the private horse tram company from Col Light Gardens and with the South Tce to Glenelg private railway. The experience with the Melbourne Loop is to avoid sharp curves in the tunnels under the CBD. In Melboune the are now building rail tunnels that go through the CBD in a straight line. ua-cam.com/video/L2NJHI4ZmR8/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/67sKsWXKauI/v-deo.html
Hi dhuphill. Movement within the Adelaide CBD "square mile" is a separate question to trains not being trapped in the Adelaide Terminal Station. LIFO "Last In First Out" means passengers have to walk a long distance to get to their train if there is no quick turn around by the trains. It also means the Up Trains must leave the station by a separate Down Track if they are not to clash with the next train. * This could be solved if there was a balloon loop at Adealide Terminal Station. Up Trains go around the Loop to one of a number of separate platforms. This was not part of the original design so it is impossible to implement now. In Melbourne & Sydney the loops are being turned into tangential limbs of through tracks. * Loops mean a very noisy ride for passengers as the train goes around the sharp bends if the loop is small.
I think the Liberal Party did a "reboot" of their policies. Wiped the slate clean. Last week The Advertiser Newspaper had a huge "all options are on the table" puff piece. Brisbane is currently getting on with the "Cross River Tunnel" scaled back to be a rail tunnel with high capacity stations at The Gabba and the West End at Albert Sttreet amongst others. crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/stations-routes/ Originally the plans for this tunnel were named the "BAT tunnel" (Bus And Train).
@@Highbury5089 I'm no expert in transport infrastructure, but I think Adelaide's standard of living would improve with better connectivity and more frequent rail services. Apparently the tunnels are already there. Obviously it does come down to the dollar... but surely now is the time to borrow cash - almost no interest owing... This is Adelaide's golden chance to future proof the city for the next 50 years +
@@bryce6744 Sadly your suggestion of increasing the frequency of trains is not possible for most of the routes because of the rail level crossings. When they built the Seaford Extension for $291 million "The project provides a 5.7 kilometre extension of the dual track rail line from Noarlunga Centre Railway Station to the Seaford District Centre" with no level crossings. The Seaford Line is 36 km dpti.sa.gov.au/infrastructure/seaford One solution is to make the trains longer in length. Most of our platforms only long enough to allow 3 car trains for passenger entry and exit. Might I suggest "Apparently the tunnels are already there." is sadly not correct. There are currently no tunnels for steel-rail trains on the Adelaide Plains. (Lots of tunnels in the rail lines in the Adelaide Hills but few passenger trains). There are more private vehicles than people living in Greater Adelaide. If you live in Greater Tokyo you cannot own a car if you do not have a designated parking place for the car. Residents cannot park cars out on the street in Tokyo. By contrast the residents in high density suburbs of Prospect, Norwood, Glenelg, North Adelaide and the CBD park their cars in the street.
@@Highbury5089 thanks for clarifying the details for me. That's interesting as there's an ABC clip on UA-cam that has a government employee stating that there are tunnels that could be used. I don't mean that they already have rail sleepers etc but simply that there are tunnels of some sort in existence under the CBD. Yeah increasing capacity will help, but as you know frequency id what's going to motivate more people to use the metro. Could they remove levels crossings like we have in Melbourne??
@@bryce6744 www.weekendnotes.com/underground-bunkers-tunnels-in-adelaide/ WW2 saw many structures built as protection for people and thankfully no bombers reached here.' "Could they remove levels crossings like we have in Melbourne??" The short answer is we are working in it here in Adelaide. The Andrews Labour Government has a Level Crossing Removal Authority. levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/ To get the money for the task the Andrews Government sold Port Melbourne for $11 billion in 2016 www.afr.com/companies/transport/port-of-melbourne-reaps-97-billion-for-victoria-20160919-grj9l6 The Abbott Liberal Government had a policy of forcing State Government to re-cycling public assets. No new money was provided by the Abbott Government. In 1942 the States give the power to Canberra to collect income taxes as a War Time measure. So Canberra controls the purse strings and the State are no power in this matter. www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C1942A00021
You might remember the lobby group opposed to O-Bahn Access Tunnel and the Rail Cutting in Bonython Pakr that improved public transport and reduced noise and visual pollution.
Joel you might remember the huge lobby that petitioned against the O-Bahn Bus Tunnel under Rymill Park and the rail cutting through Bonython Park. Both of which are hugely successful.
@@joelc9439 * 2018 An Adelaide CBD Rail tunnel was the election promise of the Marshall Liberal Government. They made not mention of the route in their various election documents. * 1950's there was to be a double deck Rail Tunnel from Goodwood under Peacock Rd and King William Street to Adelaide Railway Station. Playford Liberal Government in their MATS Plan. * 1970's works began for a (light) rail tunnel from Victoria Square under King William Street to emerge 100 m along King William Rd near Station Road (re-name Festival Drive) by the Dunstan Labor Government. The Light Rail to go via Giberton and the Torrens Valley to Paradise. The Tonkin Liberal Government cancelled the contract when they won the election.
This is arguably the most pressing project for PT investment given ARS is already nearing capacity at peak.
It’s really the critical enabler for future extensions and increased frequencies.
Hi Sam "All Politics is local" in the suburbs their is an average of one car for every adult. So the voters want faster / more convenient car travel. The suburban shopping centres with the parking at the shop door has diminished the importance of the Square Mile to most people in the Metropolitan Adelaide.
The rate payers of the City of Adelaide will need to be funding the building of the rail tunnels. They are the ones who will benefit the most from such a project.
To be honest I think Adelaide needs new high frequency tram lines in the city which would connect to the Adelaide railway station. It would be great if they extended the trams to the east as well as it’s the only direction without trams, trains or the obahn.
Yes- street-trams have lots of advantages over buses. The problem being their footprint when it is at street level. Shop owners hate having trams tops outside their front doors. In Amsterdam, in the 1980's had buses and trams using the same lanes down the centre of the roads in the Centre of the city.
Trams going down Norwood Parade received a resounding NO response at the election when the idea was put forward at an election. The O-Bahn Bus Tunnel under the East Parklands at one point was going to be a double-deck BaT tunnel (Bus and Tram). The Brisbane City Council Mayor has a BaT tunnel as one of his election promises back in the 2000's. In that case double deck was for BaT (Bus and Train).
www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-deputy-mayor-says-bat-tunnel-demise-was-good-in-the-end-20170408-gvgpug.html
Brisbane / Queensland now have opened the Cross River Rail Tunnel following the route proposed for the BaT tunnel
crossriverrail.qld.gov.au
Brisbane City is a low density city like Adelaide.
Many of the train tunnels in Manhattan are double deck train tunnels. The 63rd Street Tunnel is a double-deck subway and railroad tunnel under the East River between the boroughs of Manhattan and Queens in New York City. Opened in 1989, it is the newest of the East River tunnels, as well as the newest rail river crossing in the New York metropolitan area. The upper level of the 63rd Street Tunnel carries the IND 63rd Street Line of the New York City Subway. The lower level carries Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) trains to Grand Central as part of the East Side Access project.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/63rd_Street_Tunnel
Thanks for your thoughts and your time filming the locations Neil 👍
Thank you
I have an idea that would suit Adelaide very well. Introducing the Adelaide Crosstown Line. Under my idea, a new Rail tunnel would be built connecting the O-Bahn at its northern portal at Park Road, through a set of Twin Bored tunnels to its Southern Portal, at South Terrace, where it would connect up with the Glenelg Tram line. Two Brand new Underground Stations would be built in the Adelaide CBD. One would be built beneath Adelaide Station and would be called Adelaide Central Station. A second station, called Victoria Square Station would be built at the intersection of Wright and Queen William Streets just south of Victoria Square. Changes would be made on both the O-Bahn Busway and the Glenelg line Tram as part of the Adelaide Crosstown Line with both corridors being upgraded and converted to Heavy Rail. Infill Stations would be added along the O-Bahn Busway Corridor at both Gilberton on Stephen Terrace, Marden at Lower Portrush Road and Holden Hill at Grand Junction Road. In addition, all Bus Stations along the O-Bahn Busway would be upgraded to Train Stations, including Tea Tree Plaza Station, which would be entirely rebuilt with an Elevated Train Station above the existing Bus Station and would be the North Eastern Terminus of the Adelaide Crosstown Line. Meanwhile, along the Glenelg Tram line, Selected Tram Stops will need their platforms lengthened and upgraded to Train Stations. Meanwhile, Most Tram Stops within Close Proximity to these upgraded stations will have to be closed to speed up journey times as well as being too close to other nearby stations along the line. The Racecourse and Morphett Road Stops would be Merged and a Brand new Interchange would be built with the existing Goodwood Train Station, where a Track Connection for Transferring Rolling Stock between the Adelaide Crosstown Line and the rest of the Adelaide Rail Network as part of this Project. In addition, the stretch of Tramway along Jetty Road Between Brighton Road and Moseley Square Tram Stops would be Abandoned with Brighton Road being completely rebuilt as the South Western Terminus of the Adelaide Crosstown Line. The Adelaide Crosstown line would speed up journeys on the Glenelg Tram line, get many Trams, Buses and cars off the Streets in the Adelaide CBD and would also solve the problem with the O-Bahn Busway and lack of Public Transport Access in the Northeastern Suburbs.
Although it would be expensive, it would be worth the money and would completely overhaul and transform Adelaides Public Transport Network. Other cities, like Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne have left these types of projects too late and are only now just building them. If we don't build the Adelaide Crosstown Line by the mid-2030s, Adelaide will end up with the same problems Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane are facing Right now. We need to have the infrastructure ready to last and be accessible for Future Generations to come.
#ADELAIDE CROSSTOWN LINE
Please see
I think your idea might be similar to Adelaide NEAPTR Transport Plans 1978 Light Rail Victoria Square to Modbury evolved to O-Bahn. Below is a link to my video on the topic
ua-cam.com/video/4Y6Ay5c_7T4/v-deo.html
The Adelaide O-Bahn currently has a tunnel under the East CBD Parkland. The Marshall Government's plans to extend the O-Bahn to Golden Grove went the same was as their plan for a Rail Tunnel under the CBD.
The longest O-Bahn is in Oxfordshire County in the U.K.
Paris, Marsaiiles & Montreal Underground trains are rubber tired, curb guided vehicles.
In Paris most of the lines are also driverless trains.
Might I suggest it would be better to think of an underground train to the Eastern Suburbs and then under Adelaide Hills to the Ambleside and Mt Barker.
@@Highbury5089 except, under my vision, it would be built as heavy rail
Hi @@electro_sykes I suggest Light rail and Heavy Rail are basically the same thing.
In the USA Light Rail is called Street Cars.
The tram in Port Adelaide to Alberton was the same gauge as the railways and used some of the SAR tracks. At that time the SAR had tracks running through the Township along the streets.
The problem with steel wheels on iron tracks is they slip if the gradient is greater than 1%. They use sand to help grip the track.
The O-Bahn from Paradise to TTP has to go up a very steep incline alongside the Hope Valley Reservoir probably requiring an inclined tunnel for that section of the track.
The O-Bahn was originally intended to end at Klemzig.
That section of the track was designed to be easily converted to Light Rail / Tram / Street Car with overhead power cables
At that time we had electric buses (trolley bus) running from Port Adelaide to Burnside via the CBD
Correction. Cambridgeshire County in the U.K. has the longest O-Bahn style curb-guided Busway.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway
Stations on the Cambridgeshire bus-way do not have the passing lanes that allow "express" buses to pass "local" buses. This causes problems when passengers taking time to enter a bus and following buses cannot go-around the "problem bus"
ua-cam.com/video/a-bGGxDhVks/v-deo.html
They also use double deck buses to increase capacity. Sadly there are a number of sharp bends in the track and has caused a few accidents as buses go around the bends at higher speed.
.
Much of the track uses the right of ways and stations from the former train lines.
Sections of those railway lines were single track and the bus-way has not attempted to duplicate the track in those historic locations.
Bus-ways allow for one-seat trips between locations away from the tracks if ticket validation is done on the vehicle rather than on the "platform".
The bus routes offered by Cambridge County Council (CCC) are operated by different contractors and passengers are NOT currently offered a single fare ticket across the County.
This is contrast to "London County Council" (LCC) where passengers can get a single "ticket" when moving between underground and above ground railways operated by various contractors.
In Greater Londno this involves passengers Tap/On and Tap/Off for each leg of the train journey. They gave differential prices as passengers move been the zones.
ua-cam.com/video/ZvZHnerPlAY/v-deo.html
We already do this Tap/On and Tap/Off in Greater Sydney and Greater Perth
LCC has had a number of name changes and is currently called the "Greater London Authority" (GLA)
In addition to this, all level crossings along the Glenelg line would be removed and stub tunnels would also be built north of Adelaide Station to allow for a future connection to the Gawler line near north Adelaide.
Thanks for your thoughts! This is probably the cheapest way of doing the project, but I'm wondering if this is the best in terms of actual destinations served? Remember this project will completely change the city and have lasting implications, you want to get it right. With a tunnel boring machine you aren't as constrained by where you can go as with cut and cover, and if we take the Sydney Metro tunneling cost figure of $100million per km and say this tunnel will be no more than 9 km, similar to the new Perth airport line which cost 1.8bn with 3 new underground stations. So the project could be done for similar amounts billion which is likely not insane money but stops more useful locations than a cut and cover cheap version which will cause a hell of a lot more disruption, to do it properly and be able to offer stops at Rundle Mall, central North Adelaide with capacity to take the football and cricket fans, and proper interchanges with the Belair line, Adelaide central, trams at several points, and perhaps a future East-West Metro, plus removing tonnes of level crossings and avoiding the chaos in Adelaide rail yard. The tunnel could start at Ovingham, through a stop in the centre of North Adelaide (repurpose the current North Adelaide station), Central Railway terminal, Rundle Mall, Victoria Square south, Unley and Goodwood.
The greatest population density is in the Eastern Suburbs so any underground tunnel should go through that area.
Adelaide Airport should be added to you list.
This current version of the N-S Tunnel turns its back on the Adelaide Airport. The Richmond Road expansion goes East to the Keswick bottleneck above the railway line.
If Richmond Road were to be expanded to the West would run straight into the Airport
In Brisbane they wanted to build the BAT a cross -urban tunnel with Buses on the top deck And Trains on the lower deck of the tunnel This has a number of underground stations near sports venues, hospitals and other locations of high pedestrian use.
brisbanedevelopment.com/bat-bus-and-train-tunnel/
Campbell Newman was the 2012-2015 Liberal Premier of the State (Formerly the Mayor to the City of Brisbane) when Julia Gillard was the Labor Prime Minister (2010- 2013). Tony Abbott (2013-2015) was against Canberra granting money for capital projects.
The BCC could not get funding for the project from Canberra and Campbell lost the 2015 election.
City of Brisbane is currently building a Rail Only tunnel along the same route as the BAT tunnel. Called the Cross River Rail Project.
crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/about/
There are a number of underground stations.
@@Highbury5089 Yes I agree and I see what you're saying, but I was thinking you would do that in a separate project - construct an East-West fully automatic light Metro line from West of the Airport, stops at Airport, interchange with heavy rail at Mile End, through the East of the City to interchange with the new underground rail link we're discussing here as well as the city tram line, then continue off out East of the city. Future extensions could have two branches, one to the South from West Beach which then interchanges with Glenelg tram then the Seaford line at Warradale and the Tonsley branch at Tonsley; and a second branch North from West Beach and either interchange with the Grange line at Grange to continue North to Port Adelaide or take over the Grange line not necessarily on the same alignment up to Woodville.
@@BigBlueMan118 Are you proposing tunnels or running down the centres of the streets?
@@Highbury5089 Tunnels - you might be able to do those cut and cover for large sections to cut right back on costs. If you did the Airport line as a surface level light rail it would be slower and impacted by other services but it may be more appropriate, I don't know. Another wildcard option I thought about for connecting the Airport was as a radial line - a cheap no-frills tunnelled frequent light metro, Nuremberg U-Bahn style radial line from Goodwood to the Airport then Croydon, Islington and Klemzig O-Bahn. A second stage could continue South through Norwood, Burnside, Frewville and Unley to Goodwood and make it a full circle line. Once the North-South underground railway connection between Gawler and Seaford trains is done allowing much higher frequencies, and electrification of the other lines is on, a radial line would make an enormous difference to travelling in the city and be a game-changer. What do you think?
@@BigBlueMan118 A tunnel would be best Brisbane has the Airport Link tunnel that private enterprize built for buses and road traffic. It runs from Herston to the Airport + more.. Sadly when the free introductory period expired the number of paying customers go so low the company went broke and the investors lost their money.
State & Federal funding for these projects is best.
Hi Neil,
I don't see the two issues as mutually exclusive but in fact should be complimentary.
The situation is not that different to Auckland (Pop 1.7m) and the Britomart station installing a modified small loop serving the CBD. The question is: Is it possible to excavate the tunnel eastward from Adelaide station before diving down below other CBD high rise foundations?
My concern is not just Adelaide station but provision for regional rail in the future. If multiple crossovers (Forgive me as I'm not a rail person but have a very big interest in rail infrastructure around Australia) are to be avoided the standard gauge line north from Parklands needs to cross under broad gauge tracks to enter Adelaide station on the northside at 2 platforms to be made available for regional trains which the SA Government must do to be of value to travelers. It is pointless having regional rail finish at Parklands. The same applies for the southbound standard gauge line. I'm not sure if the Torrens floods at this location?
When these grade separation works are completed then trains can run to the Adelaide Hills & Port Augusta. DaveU
The North - South rail tunnel in the Adelaide CBD was not my idea. It was the election promise by the Marshall Opposition at the March 17, 2018 election.
Only problem is they did not say where the rail stations would be located.
As you can see I created this video 4 weeks after that election. So I was postulating various alternatives
They actually promised that the would "investigate" building a rail tunnel.
We have the problem that the State of SA's Dunstan Government "sold" the main-line country railways to the Whitlam Commonwealth Government based in Canberra. Tasmania also "sold" their's at the same time to the Commonwealth.
The minor country rail lines in S.A. are still owned by the S.A. government but have were leased to various private companies including G&W Australia. Most of these leases have been abandoned and the rolling stock has been sold.
Some parts to the Adelaide Railways freight train lines around Port Adelaide were sold to private companies that included WesFamers, formerly a WA Coal Company that had lots of cash that they used to purchase Coles and Myer, The Keating Government gave grants for them to be converted from Broad Gauge to Standard Gauge. A short portion of that freight track from Dry Creek Junction (actually a triangle) to the Port River is dual gauge - Dry Creek
@@Highbury5089 Hi Neil. Yes I see your direction and video made back in 2018. It's unlikely the north-South rail tunnel will go ahead given the alternatives around the Adelaide Hills (GlobeLink) was squashed with a return of 8 cents for every dollar spent. Tunnels are very expensive but somehow the North-South Road tunnel (10km) is? But then Melbourne is eliminating level crossings (75?) with bridges which are much cheaper. Hence this maybe a cheaper (not necessarily better) option for Adelaide
South Australia has done badly with Government sell-off's whereas NZ & Tasmania have fared much better with their Governments understanding below rail obligations provide a community benefit. For SA this must be the approach into the future.
Freight & 3 interstate passenger services must pass through the Adelaide city area on the standard gauge. Providing regional rail services on the same line will quickly fill up any gaps in the time slots. Duplication will be needed, above if not below ground, which will require electric locomotives. Many questions to answer.
Maybe part of the answer is to continue the proposed freight & passenger tunnel under the Adelaide Hills under the city as well but it all depends on making at least some economic sense. DaveU
@@dhuphill The whole point of the election proposal n 2018 was to get rid of the "Terminal" nature of the Adelaide Railway Station (ARS) at North Terrace.
At a terminus they have to park the vehicles somewhere when they are not immediately needed OR they are not scheduled to immediately leave
OR the drivers need to have a toilet break.
I rode on a train from Woodville Station (Outer Harbor Line) one weekday afternoon and found that it took us to Platform 9 at ARS. Platform 9 is the where trains on the Gawler Line depart.
As I remember Outer Harbor trains depart from Platform 8.
So they are attempting to make those 2 lines behave as one line. This is a way of getting rid of the problems of having the trains "terminate" at ARS.
This will stop happening when the Gawler Line is electrified.
At the moment they are forced to park 3 "layover" electric trains on a line alongside the RAH. The other alternative is to run "ghost electric trains" into the city to get enough carriages to handle the afternoon rush period.
In a number of my videos I show these "ghost trains" 6 cars of 2 electric trains.
One of my suggestions would be to put an underground railway station(s) under the gardens of Government House on North Terrace.
100 years ago a railway tunnel was built from Platform 9 of the ARS under King William Road and under the northern gardens Government House on its way to the Jubilee Building (demolished by the Univ of Adelaide to build a car park, Arts Building & Law Building).
The tunnel is still there but the openings at each end have been closed off
I have looked at the Britomart station you mention. It is now seen as a great success because of the people using the trains.
ua-cam.com/video/Q68ok_aHib/v-deo.html
Its cost of $NZ 4.4 billlion is a lot more money than what the Marshall Government were planning in their election promise in 2018 for the cross city underground rail tunnel.
It is years I have been to Auckland. Loved staying at Mt Eden when
I was young
I am thinking that Busways plus Multi-Level streets many be the best way to introduce high capacity public transport in the current developments in our CBD.
@@Highbury5089 Yes terminating trains at a central station for commuter rail is fraught with complications when space is at a premium. Any line passing through a loop must connect with another line (or more than one) but in the process must:
a) Pass through the Adelaide central station for connection to other transit services.
b) service ALL or most of the CBD to as far as possible give commuters access to a single transport mode.
Such an investment has a life of 100 years so must project forward patronage etc 100 years, not 20 or 50 years. This is a once in 4 life times investment. Any short cuts now South Australia will pay for with congestion and half-baked fix-it solutions later.
The other major consideration is as I say Regional rail, platforms at Adelaide station freed up by a through commuter service must be kept for regional services (both broad gauge [Adelaide Hills & Roseworthy] & standard Gauge [North & South lines]). The opportunity will not come again!
Yes I see the alignment of that tunnel under north terrace. It shows up on Railpage's 'Hairylegs Google Maps overlay. I presume its a single tunnel?
The University city campus would be a great destination giving better access to tertiary education.
Although the O-Bahn transit system seems to have been a success I wonder at the long term viability with densification of inner Nth-east suburbs? Maybe that tunnel could lead rail services to replace the O-Bahn?
The alignment of the Adelaide rail underground will be determined by the minimum curvature possible (without squealing), patronage and a host of other parameters.
So the Government is planning on building something that functions similar to both Melbourne's Metro Tunnel or Brisbane's Cross River Rail
Hi Melbourne's Metro Tunnel "Train travel will be easier with more trains able to carry more people on the Sunbury, Cranbourne and Pakenham lines. A dedicated tunnel from Kensington to South Yarra will create a direct connection between the west and the south east."
* twin 9km rail tunnels from the west of the city to the south east as part of a new Sunbury to Cranbourne/Pakenham line
* building 5 new underground stations: Arden, Parkville (under Grattan Street), State Library (at the northern end of Swanston Street), Town Hall (at the southern end of Swanston Street) and Anzac (under the Domain Interchange on St Kilda Road). The 2 stations under Swanston Street will be directly connected to the City Loop at Melbourne Central and Flinders Street stations
* High Capacity Signalling to enable more frequent services
* train/tram interchange between Anzac Station and the Domain Interchange
* upgrades on other suburban rail lines with benefits across the network
* safety features including platform screen doors.
Capital Costs ranging from $9.5nb to $1010.2bn
bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel
NO Sadly the Marshall Government did not explain the plan for a rail tunnel under the CBD to link the North and South rail lines. After 18 months the delete the information from their website.
I have live in Adelaide since July 9, 1982 and I still don' t know about much of the city's transport plans and goals.
Hi DarkAngel2347 Here is a useful link www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au
Established on 26 November 2018 under the Infrastructure SA Act 2018, ISA is an independent advisory body. That means Infrastructure SA is not subject to Ministerial direction in the exercise of its functions or powers except as provided under this or any other Act.
Under our legislation, we are obliged to act independently and we may arrive at a different opinion to other government agencies.
Interesting discussion and proposal. However, the route for an underground rail line through the CBD really needs to pass through the areas containing as many destinations for passengers as possible. I suspect that this is the reason why the strategic plan for ADELAIDE proposed a loop along North Terrace, Pulteney Street, Wakefield Street and Grote Street to the existing Seaford-Belair lines at Mile End. One issue with this route is that it will need to pass under privately owned buildings at the intersections of the above streets to achieve reasonable curves of 200 metres radius or so. Personally, I think that this option reaches the city destinations much betters, but the SA Government will need to move quickly to acquire 3D easements under those buildings. Unless something has happened very recently, those buildings are low rise, older buildings, and may not have any deep pile footings. If that is so, then it may be feasible to tunnel under those buildings, and of course any future re-development can be built to avoid the planned location of the tunnels.
If such a loop were adopted, then it may be better to commence at the Adelaide Railway station itself. That means two tracks run through to the loop, while the others terminate - like Central Station, Sydney. It would be a tricky design and construction challenge to push the line through the existing Adelaide Railway Station, but that would reduce the length of the loop, and perhaps more importantly avoid the deep tunnelling required by starting the loop at the “gap” in the university buildings at City West. There is a water table under the CBD which should be avoided if possible. That was a problem when the Myer Centre was built. Keeping the loop at minimal depth will hopefully keep it above the water table and safe from an extreme flood of the River Torrens.
Neil, thanks for all your commentary and video record of transportation issues in Adelaide - a great resource.
Stations on the Morphett Street Tunnel at Whitmore Square and Light Square / Hindley Street / North Terrace with a portal just north of Goodwood Station would allow Hills Line and Seaford/Tonsley Line trains to use the tunnel via Hamilton Blv (Wayville). This video shows all the development occurring around those 2 squares.
The portal could also be just north of the Wayville Showgrounds Station and also reach under the Parklands to the Morohett Stt/South Tce intersection..
Adelaide is not Sydney, Melbourne, Perth or Brisbane where they have built many tunnels for buses and trains under the main streets in their Central Business Districts. Not much discussion about those projects seems to hit the media in Adelaide.
The opposition to the O-Bahn Access Tunnel and the railway cutting for the Torrens Rail Flying Junction was eye-watering. An Upper House inquiry brought forth volumes of opposition from a vocal group who organised "Flash Crowds" of protesters. (So how I got onto their e-mail list and saw their correspondence. I asked them to remove my name: with no response).
As you probably know, there are 2 "train gauges" in the New York City "Underground" (most of its tracks are above ground) The 1, 2 3 etc trains are shorter and narrow than the A,B, C etc trains because they historically use to run in shallow tunnels under the narrow and winding streets of the Financial District in Lower Manhattan. There were many sharp bends which made for low speeds, very unpleasant noise from the wheels and trains coming of the rails. Many of those tunnels are now no-longer in use and replace with straighter and deeper tunnels.
Many are double-story tunnels, with 4 tracks, in the narrower streets such as Central Park West (8th Avenue) in mid-town Manhattan.
The "loop" you describe in Adelaide CBD has a number of sharp bends, with all the disadvantages they bring,
Building straight tunnels with gentle curves is a lot easier with boring machines which might get their first appearance in the North-South Road around Edwardstown. They same machines being used for roads as well at trains?
Perhaps the could include the Emerson Rail Crossing in the program for tunnel boring machines?
I don't see how the Seaford line could be rerouted on to the Glenelg right of way without obviously removing tram services to Glenelg, but more importantly, re configuring the Goodwood junction. It makes no sense to go from that point as you lose the interchange with the Belair line at Goodwood. It would make much more sense to enter a tunnel in the west parklands and have it loop around under Hindmarsh Square and then north under King William, turning again under North Terrace to come out under the university buildings.
I have published another video showing a possible route under Wayville Showgrounds that gets into Morphett St at South Tce.
ua-cam.com/video/meVW74u7fQ0/v-deo.html
In this video I showed the route that was used in the past by the private horse tram company from Col Light Gardens and with the South Tce to Glenelg private railway.
The experience with the Melbourne Loop is to avoid sharp curves in the tunnels under the CBD. In Melboune the are now building rail tunnels that go through the CBD in a straight line.
ua-cam.com/video/L2NJHI4ZmR8/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/67sKsWXKauI/v-deo.html
this is australia,not the u.s,or any other sensible country....
I agree with Ian McQueen below. The underground line must service the CBD
Hi dhuphill. Movement within the Adelaide CBD "square mile" is a separate question to trains not being trapped in the Adelaide Terminal Station. LIFO "Last In First Out" means passengers have to walk a long distance to get to their train if there is no quick turn around by the trains. It also means the Up Trains must leave the station by a separate Down Track if they are not to clash with the next train.
* This could be solved if there was a balloon loop at Adealide Terminal Station. Up Trains go around the Loop to one of a number of separate platforms. This was not part of the original design so it is impossible to implement now.
In Melbourne & Sydney the loops are being turned into tangential limbs of through tracks.
* Loops mean a very noisy ride for passengers as the train goes around the sharp bends if the loop is small.
Any update on this?
I think the Liberal Party did a "reboot" of their policies. Wiped the slate clean. Last week The Advertiser Newspaper had a huge "all options are on the table" puff piece.
Brisbane is currently getting on with the "Cross River Tunnel" scaled back to be a rail tunnel with high capacity stations at The Gabba and the West End at Albert Sttreet amongst others.
crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/stations-routes/
Originally the plans for this tunnel were named the "BAT tunnel" (Bus And Train).
@@Highbury5089 I'm no expert in transport infrastructure, but I think Adelaide's standard of living would improve with better connectivity and more frequent rail services. Apparently the tunnels are already there. Obviously it does come down to the dollar... but surely now is the time to borrow cash - almost no interest owing... This is Adelaide's golden chance to future proof the city for the next 50 years +
@@bryce6744 Sadly your suggestion of increasing the frequency of trains is not possible for most of the routes because of the rail level crossings. When they built the Seaford Extension for $291 million "The project provides a 5.7 kilometre extension of the dual track rail line from Noarlunga Centre Railway Station to the Seaford District Centre" with no level crossings. The Seaford Line is 36 km
dpti.sa.gov.au/infrastructure/seaford
One solution is to make the trains longer in length. Most of our platforms only long enough to allow 3 car trains for passenger entry and exit.
Might I suggest "Apparently the tunnels are already there." is sadly not correct. There are currently no tunnels for steel-rail trains on the Adelaide Plains. (Lots of tunnels in the rail lines in the Adelaide Hills but few passenger trains).
There are more private vehicles than people living in Greater Adelaide.
If you live in Greater Tokyo you cannot own a car if you do not have a designated parking place for the car. Residents cannot park cars out on the street in Tokyo.
By contrast the residents in high density suburbs of Prospect, Norwood, Glenelg, North Adelaide and the CBD park their cars in the street.
@@Highbury5089 thanks for clarifying the details for me. That's interesting as there's an ABC clip on UA-cam that has a government employee stating that there are tunnels that could be used. I don't mean that they already have rail sleepers etc but simply that there are tunnels of some sort in existence under the CBD.
Yeah increasing capacity will help, but as you know frequency id what's going to motivate more people to use the metro. Could they remove levels crossings like we have in Melbourne??
@@bryce6744 www.weekendnotes.com/underground-bunkers-tunnels-in-adelaide/
WW2 saw many structures built as protection for people and thankfully no bombers reached here.'
"Could they remove levels crossings like we have in Melbourne??" The short answer is we are working in it here in Adelaide. The Andrews Labour Government has a Level Crossing Removal Authority.
levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/
To get the money for the task the Andrews Government sold Port Melbourne for $11 billion in 2016
www.afr.com/companies/transport/port-of-melbourne-reaps-97-billion-for-victoria-20160919-grj9l6
The Abbott Liberal Government had a policy of forcing State Government to re-cycling public assets. No new money was provided by the Abbott Government.
In 1942 the States give the power to Canberra to collect income taxes as a War Time measure. So Canberra controls the purse strings and the State are no power in this matter.
www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C1942A00021
This will not go ahead.. But the train to the hills will be good. Or they could extend the O'Bahn bus tunnel.
You might remember the lobby group opposed to O-Bahn Access Tunnel and the Rail Cutting in Bonython Pakr that improved public transport and reduced noise and visual pollution.
Joel you might remember the huge lobby that petitioned against the O-Bahn Bus Tunnel under Rymill Park and the rail cutting through Bonython Park. Both of which are hugely successful.
@@Highbury5089 The Obahn tunnel is very small compared to this idea in the video.
@@joelc9439 * 2018 An Adelaide CBD Rail tunnel was the election promise of the Marshall Liberal Government. They made not mention of the route in their various election documents.
* 1950's there was to be a double deck Rail Tunnel from Goodwood under Peacock Rd and King William Street to Adelaide Railway Station. Playford Liberal Government in their MATS Plan.
* 1970's works began for a (light) rail tunnel from Victoria Square under King William Street to emerge 100 m along King William Rd near Station Road (re-name Festival Drive) by the Dunstan Labor Government.
The Light Rail to go via Giberton and the Torrens Valley to Paradise. The Tonkin Liberal Government cancelled the contract when they won the election.
In the 50s and 60s they got rid of the trams.. some went along Goodwood Road and surrounding areas they should have just left them there.
Seaford To Gawler! Sounds good to me in my opinion
Yes it is. Preferably it would be a minimum of 4 tracks to allow for maintenance.