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"Give me all you've got! Come on, you've never held back before! Well now I can take it, and give it back!" ~Prince Zuko as he confronts the storm, Avatar: the Last Airbender
I'd really love to see how Batman would feel if he realized his dream of a utopian Gotham. Would he feel accomplished? Would he feel bereft of purpose? Maybe both?
Getting what we want is never a self-actualizing experience. It's why basing our self worth into our goals is silly, even if that goal is altruistic. You feel lost if you don't achieve it. You feel lost if you do achieve it... Batman (or I guess Bruce at that point) would have to be "glad" to see society in peace, but whether he'd be able to sanely "retire" is in question. He'd either find healthy satisfaction in moving on from his past, accepting the present, and help others in more personable ways...or he would fall into a state of depression over having nothing else to live for now that he got what he wanted. Tragically, I dunno if Bruce could be satisfied not being Batman. He's just too detatched from normalcy to live a fulfilling civil life.
The trick to Batman is to not make him an antihero, not to make him "the Punisher in a silly hat," as OSP Red said, but not to abandon the tortured, grim nature of the character. There's a reason Batman is (outside of some bad movies) close friends with Superman. You have to recognize their unique similarities as Paragons.
That's a huge part of why The Dark knight Returns was so pivotal in reinventing Batman away from the Superfriends/Adam West mold. Frank Miller described Batman's psychological struggle as "Wagnerian torment," perfectly shown in his stalking the halls of his mansion in the stormy night, overturning the statues in the hallway that stare at him in accusation of his failure...
I feel like Anakin definitely meets the criteria of a Byronic hero. He is his own greatest enemy, he is driven to his crimes over the obsession with saving his wife only to end up being the one to kill her. He himself is the monster he hates greater than anyone. And it is only after confronting that monster that he can redeem himself in some way.
A fun fact is that Mary Shelley originally wrote Frankenstein while on vacation with Lord Byron! I wouldn't be surprised if all the Victorian poets inspired each other and themselves.
This is by far and away one of the deepest structural analyses of a character archetype this channel has ever done. It really digs in to the mechanics that make the Byronic hero compelling; it's an incision that allows us to see the sinew of these characters and really understand what animates them. Just phenomenal.
The only child he-Lord Byron- ever had in wedlock was Ada Lovelace AKA one of the first programmers and a skilled mathematician. Also, Mary Shelley, Author of Frankenstein ***knew*** Lord Byron, actually.
They were close friends through Percy Shelley, Mary's husband and famous romantic poet. Mary's mother is considered one of the original feminists and her father was a prominent politician if I remember correctly.
I love your artistry. Not just your animation -- which is exceptional -- but your ability to show your viewers the insides of themselves. At the beginning of this I was thinking (with the bitter female fraction of me): Oh FFS, self-important Byron. Then it became clear that the reason for the repulsion is nothing attracts my attention like a Byronic hero. No other antihero will do. Repulsed, because I'm obsessed. I feel compelled to hand over my insurance card. Thanks for the witchcraft, sir.
On TV tropes, I found a trope called the protagonist journal to villain : When the main character starts out as a hero or just a good person who then starts to become the villain over the course of the story like arthas, anakin skywalker (though he does get redeemed in episode 6), big boss, and light yagami.
You should do a video on the *Sympathetic Strawman* _(Otherwise known as the John Walker Effect)_ An extremely interesting character meant to be a hated antagonist and ideological strawman that ends up been more human, relatable, and popular with audiences than the main characters
Did this happen with John Walker? I know they tried to force him into a hero role at the end but there was no redemption arc or anything. He just went from fighting the protagonists to saving some people and we were supposed to forget the murder thing.
@@Loreweavver Yep! To pull from the Trope page: ...from the moment he's introduced the narrative and the main characters are complete douchebags to him, all because he committed the unforgivable crime of becoming the new Captain America on government orders, while he spends most of the series doing his best to try and genuinely help people, provide assistance the main characters and stop terrorists, all while dealing with lingering Trauma. - When he saves Sam and Bucky from been killed by the Flagsmashers and then offers to team up with them to give their investigation legal legitimacy, they respond by been initially dismissive of him then yelling all their personal grievances at him, all cause they don't like him for becoming the new Captain America, after Sam turned the position down and handed the Shield back to the US Government. They then do it again after John bails Bucky out of jail after been arrested for violating Parole. - When he tries to be diplomatic with the Dora Milorja over jurisdictive disputes, they proceed to beat him up for having the audacity to put his hand on one of their shoulders, while Sam and Bucky just watch and mock him. - Sam spends the entire series giving The Flagsmashers every benefit of the doubt, completely excusing their ever increasing extremist actions and remorseless killing, but the moment John kills ones of the them, after they just killed his best friend during an attempt to murder him, Sam and Bucky track John down the abandoned warehouse where he's trying to grieve, read him the riot act, then proceed to pick a fight with him, break his arm, steal the shield, then leave him for dead until he gets dragged in front of a Kangaroo Court to be publicly humiliated. - And when the Flagsmashers launch a major attack on the GRC, he gives up his mission of vengeance to save a truck filled with GRC senators from falling of a ledge, while Sam on the other hand, when all is said and done publicly Martyrs and defends the Flagsmashers on national television, blaming those same senators for their terrorism, then giving them an empty lecture about needing to "do better", before playing the race card to defend against criticism. All in all, this has left many viewers not only seeing Sam and Buck as a bunch of Designated Hero douchebags, but John as the real hero who should've been the series main protagonist, and that while he may not be suited to been Captain America, he did a far better job filling the role than Sam does. Other John Walker's/Sympathetic Strawman include; Tyler Hayward from WandaVision, Fred Johns from Velma, Lord Viren from The Dragon Prince, General Ironwood from RWBY & Ken from Barbie (2023)
@@logicmeister1821 could you link the page? Thanks. I see what this is saying but it feels like it was written by one of the writers of the show explaining how I'm supposed to feel about him or how they were trying to portray him. I disagree with the general premise of him being a sympathetic strawman based on the fact that I don't see what he is supposed to be standing for except "white male patriarchy." Imo, the sympathetic strawman represents a specific argument or belief. Bryan, from Family Guy sometimes falls into this category or the characters from South Park. They often give a strawman argument that is seen as a joke to begin with but often their argument is made valid by the end of the episode. Another example would be the character in a scary movie who believes in magic stuff and is mocked the whole time only for there to be supernatural forces at work. The characters, Tin Man and Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz are classic examples. That being said, I could be mistaking things. Especially as you specifically refer to it as the John Walker Effect.
@@logicmeister1821 side note. I liked him in the roll and liked his character and personality up until the fall from grace moment. I really want this dude to play Solid Snake.
I think there's something of the Byronic hero in both Jessie Pinkman and Walter White, Pinkman more overtly tortured by his own actions, torn apart by its inevitable fallout and the emotions that torture him, and White as he turns into the monster, shrugs off his humanity, only to find it again in his protege and the arc of self-confrontation and destruction Also, your personification of inner-anguish is chilling
One modern example of Byronic hero i like is Brad Armstrong from LISA The Painful RPG. ****SPOILERS IF YOU HAVENT PLAYED**** Its a long story but basic premise is Brad is constantly haunted by the trauma of his sister's suicide and Father's abuse. The very first thing we see of adult Brad is him going on a bender to try to forget that trauma. One day, an apocalyptic event occurs where all women on earth disappear. Brad however eventually finds a baby in this wasteland; a girl. While his friends urge him to take her to the big warband who can properly raise her, Brad chooses to raise her as his "second chance." A chance to do better than his father and fix the feeling of responsibility for Lisa's suicide. Already some aspirational goals, but Brad is not a great father: he's overprotective of her, never lets her outside without full disguise, teaches her to defend herself by killing a tied up innocent man, and previous addictions he had quit for her remain. When she is taken from their home one day, Brad goes on a warpath to find her, killing anyone and everyone in his way, in a world without means to reproduce. His actions mean well - saving his daughter - but he kills and ruins the lives of so many. Even old friends arent spared, as he maims one for information and can choose to kill them all or let only one go. The small army brad recruits on his journey are not treated well either. There are so many permanent ways party members can die: death by mutant, Brad having to choose between them and Buddy, brad forcing them to play russian roulette, being captured in the night and Brad deciding not to pay the ransom. He can even force them to become addicted to drugs. When Brad finally catches up to Buddy, she goes off: she hates him, he's a terrible father, she just wants to be left alone, and Brad's father was a better person to her than brad ever was (play the game if ya dont know what i mean). At that moment, Brad realizes he has failed; all his work to be better than his father, and he ended up exactly like him. Yet, he still pushes on, because Buddy is still his daughter, and he still needs to protect her, even if she doesnt need, nor want it. Like Joel Miller, brad also fights an army thats a hope for humanitys survival to save his daughter. Tho differing in that while Joel knows hes actually saving her, brad *thinks* hes saving her, and ends up a horrifying pincussion of arrows, yet still victorious. In his final moments, Brad says his final words, not that hes sorry or that he loved her, but to tell the truth. The moment she was born in this world, she never had a chance to make her own life; people were always gonna do things for her: decide for her. All he ever wanted, and needed, was to protect her. Yet, buddy tells Brad... hes the one that has hurt her the most. With a few final breaths, Brad just asks for one thing, the one thing he never got; a hug. He just wants to know what it feels like. This time Buddy must make a choice: give a dying man his last wish, or dont. The game ends with Brad falling to the ground, everything he's done behind him, all the abuse and violence, asking one last question: Did i do the right thing? That is Brad Armstrong: a man who simply wishes to protect his daughter from a terrible world, yet ends up doing much evil in that goal, even hurting the one he meant to protect.
But, in the best ending, Sunny manages to defeat that which troubles him and I'd imagine regardless of how his friends will react towards his confession, will finally start that path to recovery. If Sunny were truly Byronic, he'd never be able to win, never be satisfied with anything he does, never be hsppy again and ultimately self desroy himself for the sake of his goal of regression and hiding within himself. But your actions as a player, unless you're playing the Hikkomori route on purpose, pull him out of it by the end.
So complex I love the way you explained it. I've learned more from these videos about actual writing than I have from any other english class I've taken
One of the best Byronic heroes in gaming is Shadow the Hedgehog. He feels responsible of the death of Maria Robotnik, and he uses her memory to drive him to make the world a better place. Teaming uo with Sonic on multiple occasions since. Even if he never sees eye to eye with his rival.
We need more TV shows with byronic heroes. When I was a kid, I LOVED the shows with Steve Austin and Jamie Sommers and their super strength and super senses. In some episodes they had a byronic Bigfoot, played by Andre the Giant in a costume! So awesome!
I literally spent this whole video internally screaming, "WHAT ABOUT EREN YEAGER?!" Eren, the "main" character from Attack on Titan, fits all of these descriptions PERFECTLY! We learn his obsession and obsessive nature throughout the first three seasons, and in the fourth we see the results, his internal torment as he lays waste to the world, his obsession with freedom driving him to global genocide, and how even when he knows he's going too far he can't stop. I've always said that the first three seasons of Attack on Titan are the villain's backstory and season four is the actual show, but now, I think it's more accurate to say that the first three seasons are the Byronic hero's backstory and season four is the actual show. Genuinely disappointed that he got no mentions in the video OR in the comments as far as I've seen, this archetype fits Eren to a T.
Personally, Wander from Shadow of the Colossus is a perfect representation of most of the things talked here, even though, the lack of a well defined personality makes him less comfortable for people used to literature
1:56 i love your new intro❤ theres always something about a great story whether its in a book, movie, or a video game that makes you appreciate it more.😊
After this started playing I was hit by a bolt and realized that one of my favorite stories I've read has a byronic hero as a focal character. An introduction shows a little romance with building suspense towards what we see as a long-off conflict, but at the end you're stabbed in the back as it turns into a tragedy. Chapter 1 introduces a mystery of supernatural nature with strong notes of Holmes, with sacrifices and three "reveals" to draw out the culprit. At the same time, a meta-narrative begins, with an unknown character as its focus. But Chapter 2 takes the cake, even as a work in progress. We learn that after the prologue, everything was better than it could have been before, and get touching moments. But it's all taken away after, now the other focal character from the prologue, is sealed away. The first character is sent spiraling, and the knife we forgot about twists. And yet, after speaking with the universe itself, they decide to risk existence itself. After having barely defeated the horrors outside previously, they start on a plan to re-open the wound, and fight. On one hand, we have the character who we previously thought of as a "good" character, now with a goal that others knowingly support them in, that might end the world. Yet at the same time, we want to see them succeed, to be happy once again. It's a dilemma of not the hero, but the reader.
There is one character in an anime that I believe can be considered a Byronic hero. Lelouch lamperouge, from Code Geass. In the world of Code Geass, the British empire never compitulated. It instead evolved into the Holy Britannian Empire, that dominates a third of the planet. And Lelouch is in fact a prince of Britannia. But despite his royal lineage, Lelouch and his crippled sister, Nunnaly, are believed to be dead by their family. They live in secret exile in Japan, living on school grounds. Lelouch despises his own family and the country that dominates and oppresses the weak, and so he dons on a mask and founds a terrorist organization dedicated to liberating Japan, and eventually to overthrow his father. At first, it sounds like Lelouch is doing a noble thing. But his actions can be called anything but noble. He manipulates those around him into giving their lives for him. He brainwashes friend and foe alike to get what he wants. He even kills members of his own family, and hundreds of innocent people die because of him. Not intentionally or directly, I should add, but the innocent blood is on his hands all the same. Lelouch is not ignorant of his crimes, nor is he unmoved by them. He feels extreme guilt for the rising costs of his mission to destroy Britannia but pushes onward anyway. Because, if he decided to quit, all of his sins would've been for nothing. Most consider him an anti-hero, but I think Byronic Hero is more fitting.
Byronic heroes are by far my favorite. There may not be many examples in today's popular culture, but if we looked at underground works, then I'd wager we may find more of them. If not, we can always attempt a revival.
Byronic Heroes are pretty common. Joel, Batman, Sherlock, Jesse Pinkman, Saul Goodman, half of game of thrones. Sometimes wolverine. That's just off the top of my head. They're everywhere.
@@josephmatthews7698 Byronic heroes are both hero and villain in one so I don't think Batman qualifies. Dark heroes and antiheroes are not necessarily Byronic.
I know it's way hyped at this point, but i just started BG3 playing the Dark Urge, and your video encapsulated why i love the byronic hero. Even if you dont play it, it sounds like you would greatly enjoy reading up on their story arc. A little more on the nose than Joel, but such a wonderfully engaging character to play
I really love this video, it is my favorite of the other categories because of how ancient the concept is and almost a shame you don't see these types of characters as much as the other ones. Thank you for teaching me the idea of a Byronic Hero.
What a genius video. Thank you for this! I got goosebumps at the end, when you said: "One man against an entire storm?" That's how I feel. Brilliant. ✨
I'd like to add someone else who could who could be considered a Byronic hero: Luis Sera from the videogame Resident Evil 4, specifically the Remake since they gave him more screen time and character development (although his motivations are the same as the original). Luis was someone who grew up in the Village the game takes place in, with a mother who died at his birth, raised by his loving grandfather who died in a fire, Luis chases after a life of science, getting involved with the Umbrella corporation and ultimately being responsible for the creation of the Las Plagas virus that haunts the village. A man whose creation destroyed countless lives, he, tormented by his actions, does all he can to provide a cure, and when the new arrivals at the village become infected, he does everything in his power to help them. He feels in debt to all who suffer from the virus, and is obsessed to the point of risking his like countless times to save others. When one of his labs that had a cure is burned down, he throw himself into the flames to try and salvage anything. And his death comes at his attempt at making things right. He is a man who uses humour and charisma to try and hide his guilt, and always tries to, as he puts it, be a "good Samaritan".
I love these videos on archetypes! I think it will be very nice a content about the opposite personality: hyper-rational characters, apparently without emotions, such as Sherlock Holmes or many others literature detectives
There's an interesting lead character in the anime Oshi No Ko, Aqua who's an interesting take on Byronic heroes. Thanks for making this trope make sense.
Lol no. Silco since the start already kinda evil. KINDA. They're actually not evil. They just want to do good stuff but the method is evil. It's like middle east terrorists. They just want freedom. No more western powers. You know... The prologue before ep1 is about silco with vander together want to raid the rich area. But then vander sees the consequences of that violence. Vander dont want more of destruction anymore. He choose peace rather than a civil war of piltover.
I think Viktor is THE byronic hero of arcane, but Silco is a bit too. The depths of Viktor's obsession and struggles are so intense that the dude will probably remove his own emotions because he can't deal with them
How about Bradley Armstrong from Lisa: The Painful RPG. Seems to fit pretty well. Or maybe Harry from Disco Elysium, most particularly with the obsession and internal turmoil.
I kind of identify with some of the ideas. I know I've been rather obsessed with my own trauma sometimes. Still am a little. What can I say? It was shaping, and I'm glad I'm able to find cathartic meaning in it. Ultimately though, it's become much more about finding my way out, and becoming free. It's a tragic story with a positive outcome. I don't think slightly obsessive, highly-emotional, imaginative people who've been through rough shit can ever really stop thinking about it from time to time. But if you can think about it in a way that motivates you to keep moving forward, no matter what, to an even brighter future- Then I think that's more than enough. It can be really beautiful actually.
Any fellow anime nerds remember Tokyo Ghoul? While the anime Kaneki definitely fell into the anti-hero and there were certainly noticeable moments in the manga, Kaneki and Sonnen(definitely spelt that wrong) protagonists like Guts from Berserker definitely feel Byronic.
A good recent Byronic hero I discovered is The Artificer from Rain World Downpour. Their story is somewhat similar to Joel’s from The Last Of Us, except right from the get-go, they seek revenge. In their quest of vengeance however, they get consumed by the violence and are trapped in an endless cycle.
Once again, I feel like bringing Kageaki Minato from Full Metal Daemon Muramasa, a character that is in a constantly struggle with both himself and the various villains around him, all of which seem more than capable of dredging up his guilt. And given how he is bound by the Law of Balance which requires him to slay a loved one for every enemy that falls by his blade, angst is something he has to deal with in droves. And despite how he constantly blames himself for everything and claims to himself be a villain, he seems to constantly try to act the hero and is in denial about it. He is just this really interesting character that is full of contradictions.
"Give me all you've got! Come on, you've never held back before! Well now I can take it, and give it back!" ~Prince Zuko as he confronts the storm, _Avatar: the Last Airbender_
I think batman definitely fits the mold of antihero. He does good things for bad reasons and even if good it's not always the right thing. His crime fighting comes from a place of trauma and is ultimately selfish in that sense even if it's beneficial to others. He fights crime, not evil. While fighting outside a corrupt Justice system he nonetheless following it's rules and collaborates with police. His code is based on a he vs. Them mentality. He doesn't kill because that's what they do, he doesn't use guns because that's what they do. Contrasting to Superman who sees killing as a first step towards a version of himself that has no limits. Batman sees killing as the last line that separated him from them. That makes his morality selfish and his choice not to kill the joker one that ultimately stem's from a place of selfishness. Which is good, it's interesting
Let me get this straight. You're arguing that not being an anti-hero is what makes Batman an anti-hero? That his code of "justice, not vengeance" is somehow selfish?
Nah Batman is a full on hero just a darker version of a hero. You'd know that if you saw the 90s cartoons. If you can't see Batman comforting a child you've made The Punisher in a funny costume.
Put it simply, tragic characters that redeem themselves with the very consequences of their actions. Nintendo provided a few of these. Count Bleck from Super Paper Mario, and Jim and N from the Xenoblade Chronicles series
Anakin Skywalker definitely matches the Bironic hero as it's defined. Heck the prequels are criticized BECAUSE of how over dramaticized they are. I also really appreciate how modern star wars treats Anakin and Vader as separate personas with Vader making a point of having killed Anakin because "Anakin" was too weak and unable to protect his ideals and loved ones. In a similar vein I really like Hank Pym (Marvel Comics) and Vergil (Devil May Cry) as bironic heroes. It's not appreciated but Hank dealt with a lot of trauma and psychosis in comics. I mean he built Ultron based on his own brain patterns who then went full Oedipus. Hank also developed a separate persona as Yellow Jacket where for a time he legit thought he was a super villian who killed the Ant Man/Hank Pym. From there he spiraled feeling like he wasn't needed in any part of life and begging for recognition whilst constantly pushing everyone that cared for him away or worse. Very similar with Vergil who only ever wanted power blaming himself for his mother's death and feeling that he needed to do more as the oldest after Sparda disappeared. But after constant failure and literal enslavement and PTSD that completely warped until he literally split himself into two beings (ID and Super ego; monster and Frankenstein; Devil and Human). Though what I really love about Vergil is that opposed to most of this list, he's given the opportunity for a fresh start through the actions of his son who cared too much to let Vergil self destruct. Had Nero not carried a crumpling V to Urizen or been like Dante and immediately gone to fighting out of rage/blaming Vergil, then Vergil very well would have gone the way of Darth Vader or many other tragic bironic heroes. In an ironic way it's passion that saved him. Whereas Vergil's passion became distorted alone Nero's saved him (and Dante because that last attack likely would have ended in their mutual deaths). Nero, a son he didn't even get the chance to meet before his quest for power to protect those he loved (which now DMC3 Vergil most likely was seeking power to feel worthy enough to return to Nero's mom and not have a repeat of his childhood) ended in his torture and forced servitude to the devil that ruined his life to begin with. Well, that's my college thesis in response to this video 😂.
I wonder that if the Fantastic Beasts franchise had continued, Rowling would have revealed Dumbledore to be a Byronic hero as much as Snape is. Always living with the fear he unalived his sister, haunted by what he planned with Grindelwald, and in the main books, why does Snape have to unalive him? Because he was tempted by an artifact that he sought after when he was with Grindelwald!
Another example I can think of is Lelouche from code geass. Hero tortured by the things he does, but it's what he needs to do so he can create a world his sister will be safe yet becoming his own villain even claiming responsibility for catastrophic events he didn't have control over.
Some day Berserk will come on a Tale Foundry's video. Yes, I'm a fanboy, so what ? Byronic hero, anti-hero, anti-villain, Faustian deals, escapism, vengeance, love triangles, Damocles situation... Honestly Berserk could be cited as an illustration for so many tropes ! I guess not being concluded yet prevents its use for some story analysis but still.
Most dramatic set of tragic heroes might be Malazan's Ganoes Paran and his sister Felisin. I haven't finished the series yet, but my oh my are they angsty in every sentence they say or think.
Best version of this trope is by far Eric Draven from the crow As somebody who has an eerily similar background to the character i relate to him on another level
I'm really having trouble figuring out the difference between a byronic hero and a tragic hero. Is the main difference the depth of emotion, or something? Both seem to be doomed by their own flaws
A Byronic hero creates their own problems and is dedicated to solving them, often exacerbating the problem in their effort to solve it, creating a self-feeding cycle only they can break. A tragic hero rises to the occasion, but never triumphs, and often even suffers as a reward for their efforts. Byronic heroes are a subcategory of tragic hero. -Benji, showrunner
I feel this bironic hero is the mindset of how most hurt men it todays society, only fueled off their own pain to do better by standards that are set possibly by society, a past love, a parent, a friend or even lack of them.
If I may, lord Viren from The Dragon Prince seems like a good example. He is tormented, tortured, standing on the edge of cliffs and harming himself constantly. He started out as a well intentionned and pragmatist mage willing to do anything to protect his loved ones, but now he realises this toxic obsession drove them away from him -or maybe even worse, that they are following his example. His hands are dripping with blood. He can't stand to look at himself in the mirror. He is convinced to act for the greater good, to do what's best for humanity no matter what sacrifices it takes. Or maybe it's what he tells himself, because if he stops believing this, he'll collapse. As a desperate dark mage sentenced to die for his crimes, he summons a demon, like Faustus and Manfred, to whom he sells his soul. He found that demon within the very mirror he hates but is yet obsessed with, because that demon is a mirror of himself, a fallen angel just like himself.
I think you're wrong about batman. He's haunted by the death of his parents, leading to an obsession with crime fighting and "redeeming" villains. This obsession is so overflowing that it eclipses his own identity, that even though he knows his methods allow the deaths of thousands, he obsessively continues even when his friends and family turn from the path. He is always willing to go to any lengths to feed this obsession. Even when it means fighting the world and becoming it's villain.
Funny enough, TF, aside from Batman, another comic book character that hints both at bits of byronic hero and anti-hero; Spider-Man 2099, aka Miguel O'Hara. I am speaking of the 1992-1996 series (spiritual successor of Peter Parker, who is tragic in his own right). Miguel is his own worst enemy while also pushing himself into the role he never asked for and doesn't truly want, to the point he contemplates suicide (there are visuals in the comic, I do forewarn anyone who checks it out). However, he continues forward because ultimately, he sees what good he can do after having his eyes opened to the world around him- but he self-torments at the fact his new existence is one he sees as a curse of unending misfortunes, either blaming himself or others around him. His world is dystopian, he is cynical and cocky, his own behavior and hubris leads into the catalyst that changes his life forever. The icing on the cake is he has sabotaged his own relationships with the people closest to him, not because of the Spider-Man double-life, but because of his own self-loathing.
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thank you TheTaleFoundry
Have you heard of Lone Sloane? I think it must have been inspired by Byron's works. Haven't read Byron myself yet.
"Give me all you've got! Come on, you've never held back before! Well now I can take it, and give it back!" ~Prince Zuko as he confronts the storm, Avatar: the Last Airbender
Hi
Would it be possible to make a video on "Magical Realism"? I need it for a project, and I don't really understand it
I'd really love to see how Batman would feel if he realized his dream of a utopian Gotham. Would he feel accomplished? Would he feel bereft of purpose? Maybe both?
Probably both, IMO. :)
Getting what we want is never a self-actualizing experience. It's why basing our self worth into our goals is silly, even if that goal is altruistic. You feel lost if you don't achieve it. You feel lost if you do achieve it... Batman (or I guess Bruce at that point) would have to be "glad" to see society in peace, but whether he'd be able to sanely "retire" is in question. He'd either find healthy satisfaction in moving on from his past, accepting the present, and help others in more personable ways...or he would fall into a state of depression over having nothing else to live for now that he got what he wanted. Tragically, I dunno if Bruce could be satisfied not being Batman. He's just too detatched from normalcy to live a fulfilling civil life.
No, he wouldn't. That's why he keeps that stupid clown alive... also because peaceful Gotham and dead Joker don't sell comics.
Money kills art
I could have sworn there was a Shortpacked! comic that did a joke about Bruce Wayne pursuing therapy, but I can't find it at the moment...
The trick to Batman is to not make him an antihero, not to make him "the Punisher in a silly hat," as OSP Red said, but not to abandon the tortured, grim nature of the character. There's a reason Batman is (outside of some bad movies) close friends with Superman. You have to recognize their unique similarities as Paragons.
I love the Batman: The Animated Series, Batman.. he's just so.. human, and genuinely cares for his villains
@@rosegray4061That is peak Batman
That's a huge part of why The Dark knight Returns was so pivotal in reinventing Batman away from the Superfriends/Adam West mold. Frank Miller described Batman's psychological struggle as "Wagnerian torment," perfectly shown in his stalking the halls of his mansion in the stormy night, overturning the statues in the hallway that stare at him in accusation of his failure...
Lets face it the true most dramatic hero is the guy who dresses up as Ronald Mcdonald in the commercials
You do know that heroism might also be described as suicidal tendency?😊
Ran ran roo
He couldn't eat McDonald's
@@therebelreaper1486 neither can I...
I really remember that video
I feel like Anakin definitely meets the criteria of a Byronic hero. He is his own greatest enemy, he is driven to his crimes over the obsession with saving his wife only to end up being the one to kill her. He himself is the monster he hates greater than anyone. And it is only after confronting that monster that he can redeem himself in some way.
Only thing that Anakin Doesn't really fit in here for is the tragic end. Anakin even for his crimes got the good ending.
@@davidlz830 is it really a good ending though? He still died, and his “confronting the monster within” is how he died.
It's just my opinion but I think you gotta redeem yourself before killing children.
A fun fact is that Mary Shelley originally wrote Frankenstein while on vacation with Lord Byron! I wouldn't be surprised if all the Victorian poets inspired each other and themselves.
I can pretty much guarantee they did. Most of them were in the same social circles.
This is by far and away one of the deepest structural analyses of a character archetype this channel has ever done. It really digs in to the mechanics that make the Byronic hero compelling; it's an incision that allows us to see the sinew of these characters and really understand what animates them.
Just phenomenal.
All credit to the my co-writer for this one, Carrie!
-Benji, showrunner
Do you have translators in your teams, I’d love to dub in French, starting by Le
Petit Prince a story gem of many French youth
@@TheTaleFoundry how many comments do you read on your videos?
The only child he-Lord Byron- ever had in wedlock was Ada Lovelace AKA one of the first programmers and a skilled mathematician.
Also, Mary Shelley, Author of Frankenstein ***knew*** Lord Byron, actually.
They were close friends through Percy Shelley, Mary's husband and famous romantic poet. Mary's mother is considered one of the original feminists and her father was a prominent politician if I remember correctly.
They were a prominent and dramatic community given their history
OG goths...
I love your artistry.
Not just your animation -- which is exceptional -- but your ability to show your viewers the insides of themselves.
At the beginning of this I was thinking (with the bitter female fraction of me): Oh FFS, self-important Byron.
Then it became clear that the reason for the repulsion is nothing attracts my attention like a Byronic hero. No other antihero will do. Repulsed, because I'm obsessed. I feel compelled to hand over my insurance card.
Thanks for the witchcraft, sir.
Bitter from what?
@ Currently? The Dog of My Life just died an hour ago. He was my whole heart. Love has a way of turning to bile when you lose the object of your care.
@@CleoHarperReturns My condolenses.
@ 💜
@@CleoHarperReturnsim sorry for your loss
Bro you guys really are amazing. Even the robot is like a whole living creature now. Like tom from toonami lol
On TV tropes, I found a trope called the protagonist journal to villain : When the main character starts out as a hero or just a good person who then starts to become the villain over the course of the story like arthas, anakin skywalker (though he does get redeemed in episode 6), big boss, and light yagami.
"The Gods of Olympus have abandoned me. Now there is no hope."
"Millions must perished."
God I’m always gonna love it when one of your videos pops up in my feed. Thanks a million again you all
You should do a video on the *Sympathetic Strawman* _(Otherwise known as the John Walker Effect)_
An extremely interesting character meant to be a hated antagonist and ideological strawman that ends up been more human, relatable, and popular with audiences than the main characters
Did this happen with John Walker? I know they tried to force him into a hero role at the end but there was no redemption arc or anything. He just went from fighting the protagonists to saving some people and we were supposed to forget the murder thing.
@@Loreweavver Yep! To pull from the Trope page:
...from the moment he's introduced the narrative and the main characters are complete douchebags to him, all because he committed the unforgivable crime of becoming the new Captain America on government orders, while he spends most of the series doing his best to try and genuinely help people, provide assistance the main characters and stop terrorists, all while dealing with lingering Trauma.
- When he saves Sam and Bucky from been killed by the Flagsmashers and then offers to team up with them to give their investigation legal legitimacy, they respond by been initially dismissive of him then yelling all their personal grievances at him, all cause they don't like him for becoming the new Captain America, after Sam turned the position down and handed the Shield back to the US Government. They then do it again after John bails Bucky out of jail after been arrested for violating Parole.
- When he tries to be diplomatic with the Dora Milorja over jurisdictive disputes, they proceed to beat him up for having the audacity to put his hand on one of their shoulders, while Sam and Bucky just watch and mock him.
- Sam spends the entire series giving The Flagsmashers every benefit of the doubt, completely excusing their ever increasing extremist actions and remorseless killing, but the moment John kills ones of the them, after they just killed his best friend during an attempt to murder him, Sam and Bucky track John down the abandoned warehouse where he's trying to grieve, read him the riot act, then proceed to pick a fight with him, break his arm, steal the shield, then leave him for dead until he gets dragged in front of a Kangaroo Court to be publicly humiliated.
- And when the Flagsmashers launch a major attack on the GRC, he gives up his mission of vengeance to save a truck filled with GRC senators from falling of a ledge, while Sam on the other hand, when all is said and done publicly Martyrs and defends the Flagsmashers on national television, blaming those same senators for their terrorism, then giving them an empty lecture about needing to "do better", before playing the race card to defend against criticism.
All in all, this has left many viewers not only seeing Sam and Buck as a bunch of Designated Hero douchebags, but John as the real hero who should've been the series main protagonist, and that while he may not be suited to been Captain America, he did a far better job filling the role than Sam does.
Other John Walker's/Sympathetic Strawman include; Tyler Hayward from WandaVision, Fred Johns from Velma, Lord Viren from The Dragon Prince, General Ironwood from RWBY & Ken from Barbie (2023)
@@logicmeister1821 could you link the page? Thanks.
I see what this is saying but it feels like it was written by one of the writers of the show explaining how I'm supposed to feel about him or how they were trying to portray him.
I disagree with the general premise of him being a sympathetic strawman based on the fact that I don't see what he is supposed to be standing for except "white male patriarchy."
Imo, the sympathetic strawman represents a specific argument or belief.
Bryan, from Family Guy sometimes falls into this category or the characters from South Park. They often give a strawman argument that is seen as a joke to begin with but often their argument is made valid by the end of the episode.
Another example would be the character in a scary movie who believes in magic stuff and is mocked the whole time only for there to be supernatural forces at work.
The characters, Tin Man and Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz are classic examples.
That being said, I could be mistaking things. Especially as you specifically refer to it as the John Walker Effect.
@@logicmeister1821 side note. I liked him in the roll and liked his character and personality up until the fall from grace moment.
I really want this dude to play Solid Snake.
How is john walker a strawman? Karli and the flag smashers are clearly the strawmen.
I think there's something of the Byronic hero in both Jessie Pinkman and Walter White, Pinkman more overtly tortured by his own actions, torn apart by its inevitable fallout and the emotions that torture him, and White as he turns into the monster, shrugs off his humanity, only to find it again in his protege and the arc of self-confrontation and destruction
Also, your personification of inner-anguish is chilling
One modern example of Byronic hero i like is Brad Armstrong from LISA The Painful RPG.
****SPOILERS IF YOU HAVENT PLAYED****
Its a long story but basic premise is Brad is constantly haunted by the trauma of his sister's suicide and Father's abuse. The very first thing we see of adult Brad is him going on a bender to try to forget that trauma. One day, an apocalyptic event occurs where all women on earth disappear. Brad however eventually finds a baby in this wasteland; a girl. While his friends urge him to take her to the big warband who can properly raise her, Brad chooses to raise her as his "second chance." A chance to do better than his father and fix the feeling of responsibility for Lisa's suicide. Already some aspirational goals, but Brad is not a great father: he's overprotective of her, never lets her outside without full disguise, teaches her to defend herself by killing a tied up innocent man, and previous addictions he had quit for her remain. When she is taken from their home one day, Brad goes on a warpath to find her, killing anyone and everyone in his way, in a world without means to reproduce. His actions mean well - saving his daughter - but he kills and ruins the lives of so many. Even old friends arent spared, as he maims one for information and can choose to kill them all or let only one go. The small army brad recruits on his journey are not treated well either. There are so many permanent ways party members can die: death by mutant, Brad having to choose between them and Buddy, brad forcing them to play russian roulette, being captured in the night and Brad deciding not to pay the ransom. He can even force them to become addicted to drugs.
When Brad finally catches up to Buddy, she goes off: she hates him, he's a terrible father, she just wants to be left alone, and Brad's father was a better person to her than brad ever was (play the game if ya dont know what i mean). At that moment, Brad realizes he has failed; all his work to be better than his father, and he ended up exactly like him. Yet, he still pushes on, because Buddy is still his daughter, and he still needs to protect her, even if she doesnt need, nor want it. Like Joel Miller, brad also fights an army thats a hope for humanitys survival to save his daughter. Tho differing in that while Joel knows hes actually saving her, brad *thinks* hes saving her, and ends up a horrifying pincussion of arrows, yet still victorious. In his final moments, Brad says his final words, not that hes sorry or that he loved her, but to tell the truth. The moment she was born in this world, she never had a chance to make her own life; people were always gonna do things for her: decide for her. All he ever wanted, and needed, was to protect her. Yet, buddy tells Brad... hes the one that has hurt her the most. With a few final breaths, Brad just asks for one thing, the one thing he never got; a hug. He just wants to know what it feels like. This time Buddy must make a choice: give a dying man his last wish, or dont.
The game ends with Brad falling to the ground, everything he's done behind him, all the abuse and violence, asking one last question: Did i do the right thing?
That is Brad Armstrong: a man who simply wishes to protect his daughter from a terrible world, yet ends up doing much evil in that goal, even hurting the one he meant to protect.
It’s a good week when Tale foundry uploads thanks again for a awesome video😁
I feel like Sunny from Omori is kind of like a Byronic hero, in his struggle against Something (his guilt) and Omori (his self destructive tendencies)
But, in the best ending, Sunny manages to defeat that which troubles him and I'd imagine regardless of how his friends will react towards his confession, will finally start that path to recovery. If Sunny were truly Byronic, he'd never be able to win, never be satisfied with anything he does, never be hsppy again and ultimately self desroy himself for the sake of his goal of regression and hiding within himself. But your actions as a player, unless you're playing the Hikkomori route on purpose, pull him out of it by the end.
Bro I gotta get back to playing that one of these days, it's so good.
I like to think of different routes as different stories, so Omori route Sunny is what I was talking about
So complex I love the way you explained it. I've learned more from these videos about actual writing than I have from any other english class I've taken
One of the best Byronic heroes in gaming is Shadow the Hedgehog. He feels responsible of the death of Maria Robotnik, and he uses her memory to drive him to make the world a better place. Teaming uo with Sonic on multiple occasions since. Even if he never sees eye to eye with his rival.
This guy needs to get in touch with TV Tropes.
We need more TV shows with byronic heroes. When I was a kid, I LOVED the shows with Steve Austin and Jamie Sommers and their super strength and super senses. In some episodes they had a byronic Bigfoot, played by Andre the Giant in a costume! So awesome!
Byron is my favorite poet; it makes me so happy every time you reference him ❤
I literally spent this whole video internally screaming, "WHAT ABOUT EREN YEAGER?!" Eren, the "main" character from Attack on Titan, fits all of these descriptions PERFECTLY! We learn his obsession and obsessive nature throughout the first three seasons, and in the fourth we see the results, his internal torment as he lays waste to the world, his obsession with freedom driving him to global genocide, and how even when he knows he's going too far he can't stop. I've always said that the first three seasons of Attack on Titan are the villain's backstory and season four is the actual show, but now, I think it's more accurate to say that the first three seasons are the Byronic hero's backstory and season four is the actual show. Genuinely disappointed that he got no mentions in the video OR in the comments as far as I've seen, this archetype fits Eren to a T.
I completely agree. I hope they make a video on Eren one day.
Personally, Wander from Shadow of the Colossus is a perfect representation of most of the things talked here, even though, the lack of a well defined personality makes him less comfortable for people used to literature
1:56 i love your new intro❤ theres always something about a great story whether its in a book, movie, or a video game that makes you appreciate it more.😊
After this started playing I was hit by a bolt and realized that one of my favorite stories I've read has a byronic hero as a focal character.
An introduction shows a little romance with building suspense towards what we see as a long-off conflict, but at the end you're stabbed in the back as it turns into a tragedy.
Chapter 1 introduces a mystery of supernatural nature with strong notes of Holmes, with sacrifices and three "reveals" to draw out the culprit. At the same time, a meta-narrative begins, with an unknown character as its focus.
But Chapter 2 takes the cake, even as a work in progress.
We learn that after the prologue, everything was better than it could have been before, and get touching moments. But it's all taken away after, now the other focal character from the prologue, is sealed away. The first character is sent spiraling, and the knife we forgot about twists. And yet, after speaking with the universe itself, they decide to risk existence itself. After having barely defeated the horrors outside previously, they start on a plan to re-open the wound, and fight.
On one hand, we have the character who we previously thought of as a "good" character, now with a goal that others knowingly support them in, that might end the world. Yet at the same time, we want to see them succeed, to be happy once again. It's a dilemma of not the hero, but the reader.
There is one character in an anime that I believe can be considered a Byronic hero. Lelouch lamperouge, from Code Geass.
In the world of Code Geass, the British empire never compitulated. It instead evolved into the Holy Britannian Empire, that dominates a third of the planet. And Lelouch is in fact a prince of Britannia. But despite his royal lineage, Lelouch and his crippled sister, Nunnaly, are believed to be dead by their family. They live in secret exile in Japan, living on school grounds. Lelouch despises his own family and the country that dominates and oppresses the weak, and so he dons on a mask and founds a terrorist organization dedicated to liberating Japan, and eventually to overthrow his father.
At first, it sounds like Lelouch is doing a noble thing. But his actions can be called anything but noble. He manipulates those around him into giving their lives for him. He brainwashes friend and foe alike to get what he wants. He even kills members of his own family, and hundreds of innocent people die because of him. Not intentionally or directly, I should add, but the innocent blood is on his hands all the same. Lelouch is not ignorant of his crimes, nor is he unmoved by them. He feels extreme guilt for the rising costs of his mission to destroy Britannia but pushes onward anyway. Because, if he decided to quit, all of his sins would've been for nothing.
Most consider him an anti-hero, but I think Byronic Hero is more fitting.
Byronic heroes are by far my favorite. There may not be many examples in today's popular culture, but if we looked at underground works, then I'd wager we may find more of them. If not, we can always attempt a revival.
I believe the best example I can think of in modern pop culture is the Director from RvB.
Byronic Heroes are pretty common. Joel, Batman, Sherlock, Jesse Pinkman, Saul Goodman, half of game of thrones. Sometimes wolverine.
That's just off the top of my head. They're everywhere.
@@josephmatthews7698 Byronic heroes are both hero and villain in one so I don't think Batman qualifies. Dark heroes and antiheroes are not necessarily Byronic.
I had never clocked Joel as a byronic hero and it's SO true. Damn.
I know it's way hyped at this point, but i just started BG3 playing the Dark Urge, and your video encapsulated why i love the byronic hero.
Even if you dont play it, it sounds like you would greatly enjoy reading up on their story arc. A little more on the nose than Joel, but such a wonderfully engaging character to play
I really love this video, it is my favorite of the other categories because of how ancient the concept is and almost a shame you don't see these types of characters as much as the other ones. Thank you for teaching me the idea of a Byronic Hero.
I’m ngl angsty heros are one of my favorite character tropes…bc they make me wanna give them hugs X3
I love this archetype! It's so beautiful!
I am loving these character archetypes analyses
What a genius video. Thank you for this!
I got goosebumps at the end, when you said: "One man against an entire storm?" That's how I feel. Brilliant. ✨
I'd like to add someone else who could who could be considered a Byronic hero:
Luis Sera from the videogame Resident Evil 4, specifically the Remake since they gave him more screen time and character development (although his motivations are the same as the original).
Luis was someone who grew up in the Village the game takes place in, with a mother who died at his birth, raised by his loving grandfather who died in a fire, Luis chases after a life of science, getting involved with the Umbrella corporation and ultimately being responsible for the creation of the Las Plagas virus that haunts the village. A man whose creation destroyed countless lives, he, tormented by his actions, does all he can to provide a cure, and when the new arrivals at the village become infected, he does everything in his power to help them. He feels in debt to all who suffer from the virus, and is obsessed to the point of risking his like countless times to save others. When one of his labs that had a cure is burned down, he throw himself into the flames to try and salvage anything. And his death comes at his attempt at making things right. He is a man who uses humour and charisma to try and hide his guilt, and always tries to, as he puts it, be a "good Samaritan".
I love these videos on archetypes! I think it will be very nice a content about the opposite personality: hyper-rational characters, apparently without emotions, such as Sherlock Holmes or many others literature detectives
He's made a video on exactly that - "Sherlock Holmes Isn't Who You Think He Is"
@@luckyowl314 Ah, I didn't know that. Thank you!
I Love How these videos teach us interesting things about storytelling in a entertaining way.
Always look forward to this Channels videos!
There's an interesting lead character in the anime Oshi No Ko, Aqua who's an interesting take on Byronic heroes. Thanks for making this trope make sense.
I think Silco from Arcane would also be a great example of this.
Lol no.
Silco since the start already kinda evil. KINDA. They're actually not evil. They just want to do good stuff but the method is evil. It's like middle east terrorists. They just want freedom. No more western powers.
You know... The prologue before ep1 is about silco with vander together want to raid the rich area. But then vander sees the consequences of that violence. Vander dont want more of destruction anymore. He choose peace rather than a civil war of piltover.
I think Viktor is THE byronic hero of arcane, but Silco is a bit too. The depths of Viktor's obsession and struggles are so intense that the dude will probably remove his own emotions because he can't deal with them
I've never heard of Byronic heros before but from your explanation I'd like to deposit Rorschach as an example
How about Bradley Armstrong from Lisa: The Painful RPG. Seems to fit pretty well. Or maybe Harry from Disco Elysium, most particularly with the obsession and internal turmoil.
Awesome as always thanks
I finally have a name for the archetype of David Armsby's short film, Friendly Shadow. I highly recommend it, you would probably love it Tale Foundry.
OMG AN AUTODALE FAN
@@noiwvernsonic1358 Such an amazing series.
THE INTRO IS SO GOOD
I'd love to finnish this video but frankly I identify so fully with this archetype that It would be unhealthy for me.
We found him! The Lord of edges!
@@elijahbrown9738 more like helpless romantic inside, edgelord outside
🇫🇮
I kind of identify with some of the ideas. I know I've been rather obsessed with my own trauma sometimes. Still am a little. What can I say? It was shaping, and I'm glad I'm able to find cathartic meaning in it.
Ultimately though, it's become much more about finding my way out, and becoming free.
It's a tragic story with a positive outcome.
I don't think slightly obsessive, highly-emotional, imaginative people who've been through rough shit can ever really stop thinking about it from time to time. But if you can think about it in a way that motivates you to keep moving forward, no matter what, to an even brighter future-
Then I think that's more than enough. It can be really beautiful actually.
Any fellow anime nerds remember Tokyo Ghoul? While the anime Kaneki definitely fell into the anti-hero and there were certainly noticeable moments in the manga, Kaneki and Sonnen(definitely spelt that wrong) protagonists like Guts from Berserker definitely feel Byronic.
Today I learned my favourite hero type has a name. Cool. Great video. I feel similar themes from Rorschach in the Watchmen (film)
Your art is stunning!
A good recent Byronic hero I discovered is The Artificer from Rain World Downpour. Their story is somewhat similar to Joel’s from The Last Of Us, except right from the get-go, they seek revenge. In their quest of vengeance however, they get consumed by the violence and are trapped in an endless cycle.
Ok. This has been your best video until now! Thank you!
Oh man, I simply love your videos
Thanks for the Skillshare. That's an amazing Christmas present.
Hearing your work makes me want to get back to my voice acting hobby! :)
Once again, I feel like bringing Kageaki Minato from Full Metal Daemon Muramasa, a character that is in a constantly struggle with both himself and the various villains around him, all of which seem more than capable of dredging up his guilt.
And given how he is bound by the Law of Balance which requires him to slay a loved one for every enemy that falls by his blade, angst is something he has to deal with in droves.
And despite how he constantly blames himself for everything and claims to himself be a villain, he seems to constantly try to act the hero and is in denial about it.
He is just this really interesting character that is full of contradictions.
Zuko. Snape. Anakin. Red Hood. Cruella. Elsa. Mad, bad, dangerous to know.
I think Eren Jaeger from AOT is also a great representation of this archetype
Doctor Frankstein is like Oppenheimer. Their creation has been their curse. 🛠️💣💀
"Give me all you've got! Come on, you've never held back before! Well now I can take it, and give it back!" ~Prince Zuko as he confronts the storm, _Avatar: the Last Airbender_
as soon as i saw the thumbnail i said in my head Im batman
edit i love the intro
I think batman definitely fits the mold of antihero. He does good things for bad reasons and even if good it's not always the right thing. His crime fighting comes from a place of trauma and is ultimately selfish in that sense even if it's beneficial to others. He fights crime, not evil. While fighting outside a corrupt Justice system he nonetheless following it's rules and collaborates with police. His code is based on a he vs. Them mentality. He doesn't kill because that's what they do, he doesn't use guns because that's what they do. Contrasting to Superman who sees killing as a first step towards a version of himself that has no limits. Batman sees killing as the last line that separated him from them. That makes his morality selfish and his choice not to kill the joker one that ultimately stem's from a place of selfishness. Which is good, it's interesting
Let me get this straight.
You're arguing that not being an anti-hero is what makes Batman an anti-hero? That his code of "justice, not vengeance" is somehow selfish?
Nah Batman is a full on hero just a darker version of a hero. You'd know that if you saw the 90s cartoons. If you can't see Batman comforting a child you've made The Punisher in a funny costume.
Put it simply, tragic characters that redeem themselves with the very consequences of their actions. Nintendo provided a few of these. Count Bleck from Super Paper Mario, and Jim and N from the Xenoblade Chronicles series
this channel really made me think "will we forget the wonder we had when we were youthful"
babe wake up, new tale foundry content dropped
Anakin Skywalker definitely matches the Bironic hero as it's defined. Heck the prequels are criticized BECAUSE of how over dramaticized they are. I also really appreciate how modern star wars treats Anakin and Vader as separate personas with Vader making a point of having killed Anakin because "Anakin" was too weak and unable to protect his ideals and loved ones. In a similar vein I really like Hank Pym (Marvel Comics) and Vergil (Devil May Cry) as bironic heroes. It's not appreciated but Hank dealt with a lot of trauma and psychosis in comics. I mean he built Ultron based on his own brain patterns who then went full Oedipus. Hank also developed a separate persona as Yellow Jacket where for a time he legit thought he was a super villian who killed the Ant Man/Hank Pym. From there he spiraled feeling like he wasn't needed in any part of life and begging for recognition whilst constantly pushing everyone that cared for him away or worse. Very similar with Vergil who only ever wanted power blaming himself for his mother's death and feeling that he needed to do more as the oldest after Sparda disappeared. But after constant failure and literal enslavement and PTSD that completely warped until he literally split himself into two beings (ID and Super ego; monster and Frankenstein; Devil and Human). Though what I really love about Vergil is that opposed to most of this list, he's given the opportunity for a fresh start through the actions of his son who cared too much to let Vergil self destruct. Had Nero not carried a crumpling V to Urizen or been like Dante and immediately gone to fighting out of rage/blaming Vergil, then Vergil very well would have gone the way of Darth Vader or many other tragic bironic heroes. In an ironic way it's passion that saved him. Whereas Vergil's passion became distorted alone Nero's saved him (and Dante because that last attack likely would have ended in their mutual deaths). Nero, a son he didn't even get the chance to meet before his quest for power to protect those he loved (which now DMC3 Vergil most likely was seeking power to feel worthy enough to return to Nero's mom and not have a repeat of his childhood) ended in his torture and forced servitude to the devil that ruined his life to begin with.
Well, that's my college thesis in response to this video 😂.
I'm ironically getting ready to do something surrounding this, your video helps a lot!
I wonder that if the Fantastic Beasts franchise had continued, Rowling would have revealed Dumbledore to be a Byronic hero as much as Snape is. Always living with the fear he unalived his sister, haunted by what he planned with Grindelwald, and in the main books, why does Snape have to unalive him? Because he was tempted by an artifact that he sought after when he was with Grindelwald!
It isn’t over yet
I never liked gramma or learning how to make historis , thanks to you now I can learn about characters and their way of acting and thinking
Thank you for this peotical drawing
Another example I can think of is Lelouche from code geass. Hero tortured by the things he does, but it's what he needs to do so he can create a world his sister will be safe yet becoming his own villain even claiming responsibility for catastrophic events he didn't have control over.
Some day Berserk will come on a Tale Foundry's video. Yes, I'm a fanboy, so what ?
Byronic hero, anti-hero, anti-villain, Faustian deals, escapism, vengeance, love triangles, Damocles situation... Honestly Berserk could be cited as an illustration for so many tropes ! I guess not being concluded yet prevents its use for some story analysis but still.
Berserk is my main source of dark fantasy and it is vibrantly full of it
Manfred sounds like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, gothic edition
I remember a few Batman comics in the 1990s-2010s that implied Joker was super sane while Batman was the one who had lost his mind.
Most dramatic set of tragic heroes might be Malazan's Ganoes Paran and his sister Felisin. I haven't finished the series yet, but my oh my are they angsty in every sentence they say or think.
I just realized that as comedic as he can be, Edward Elric possesses traits of a byronic hero.
Best version of this trope is by far Eric Draven from the crow
As somebody who has an eerily similar background to the character i relate to him on another level
That and Robery E Howard.
I'm really having trouble figuring out the difference between a byronic hero and a tragic hero. Is the main difference the depth of emotion, or something? Both seem to be doomed by their own flaws
A Byronic hero creates their own problems and is dedicated to solving them, often exacerbating the problem in their effort to solve it, creating a self-feeding cycle only they can break. A tragic hero rises to the occasion, but never triumphs, and often even suffers as a reward for their efforts. Byronic heroes are a subcategory of tragic hero.
-Benji, showrunner
@@TheTaleFoundry This made it all make sense, thank you!
I like John Constantine as my comic book Byronic Hero
It truly is Ougi all over again
oh hey it's madds Mickelson! (Frankenstein's monster)
I feel this bironic hero is the mindset of how most hurt men it todays society, only fueled off their own pain to do better by standards that are set possibly by society, a past love, a parent, a friend or even lack of them.
I love hero to villain and villain to herp stories.
Oh my god the title is changing every 5 minutes. This. Is. Crazy
Nah, it's pretty common when a video is underperforming
-Benji, showrunner
Mk got it
I think that Guts from Berserk also fits the Byronic hero archetype.
If I may, lord Viren from The Dragon Prince seems like a good example. He is tormented, tortured, standing on the edge of cliffs and harming himself constantly. He started out as a well intentionned and pragmatist mage willing to do anything to protect his loved ones, but now he realises this toxic obsession drove them away from him -or maybe even worse, that they are following his example. His hands are dripping with blood. He can't stand to look at himself in the mirror. He is convinced to act for the greater good, to do what's best for humanity no matter what sacrifices it takes. Or maybe it's what he tells himself, because if he stops believing this, he'll collapse. As a desperate dark mage sentenced to die for his crimes, he summons a demon, like Faustus and Manfred, to whom he sells his soul. He found that demon within the very mirror he hates but is yet obsessed with, because that demon is a mirror of himself, a fallen angel just like himself.
Isn't it Byronic, don't you think?
IT'S LIKE RAI-EE-AIN!
I think you're wrong about batman. He's haunted by the death of his parents, leading to an obsession with crime fighting and "redeeming" villains. This obsession is so overflowing that it eclipses his own identity, that even though he knows his methods allow the deaths of thousands, he obsessively continues even when his friends and family turn from the path. He is always willing to go to any lengths to feed this obsession. Even when it means fighting the world and becoming it's villain.
The entire time iv been watching this video a line from a song keeps playing in my head, "im Batman, but you can call me Bob"
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
Your channel is so good
Isnt it Byronic.
Dont you think?
A little tooooo Byronic
And yeah, I really do think!
Its like RAIIIIIIIIIIIN on your wedding day!
The Crow moment
I would count Handsome Jack as this.... though he might be closer to a "fallen hero"
Funny enough, TF, aside from Batman, another comic book character that hints both at bits of byronic hero and anti-hero;
Spider-Man 2099, aka Miguel O'Hara.
I am speaking of the 1992-1996 series (spiritual successor of Peter Parker, who is tragic in his own right). Miguel is his own worst enemy while also pushing himself into the role he never asked for and doesn't truly want, to the point he contemplates suicide (there are visuals in the comic, I do forewarn anyone who checks it out). However, he continues forward because ultimately, he sees what good he can do after having his eyes opened to the world around him- but he self-torments at the fact his new existence is one he sees as a curse of unending misfortunes, either blaming himself or others around him. His world is dystopian, he is cynical and cocky, his own behavior and hubris leads into the catalyst that changes his life forever. The icing on the cake is he has sabotaged his own relationships with the people closest to him, not because of the Spider-Man double-life, but because of his own self-loathing.
JOEL! MY WHOLE HEART!
But have you heard about our lord and saviour "Otto Apocalypse"?
He spend 500 years obsessing over how to bring his wifu back to life.
When did you get an intro?
Isn't it Byronic, don't you think? A little bit Byronic. Yeah, I really do think...
Charlie Gordon from Flowers for Algernon is one of my favourite byronic heroes