“Division” was Time Lord endeavor to divide/split/copy those that had the skills they needed, who they then controled through memory manipulation and forced regeneration. These copies would leave no missing person reports and could be eliminated when done with-the perfect spies and secret agents. William Hartnel’s first Doctor was divided this way, but the Renegade Doctor slipped from their control-as one might expect.
Jo Martin did an excellent portrayal of the doctor, I really liked her and I hope that some writer for the coming series can fit her properly in the known continuity. She rightfuly deserves a place alongside the other doctors.
Big Finish is working on a series starring her, which is really pleasant to see. They did the same treatment to Paul McGann - which is why he's my favorite Doctor of them all. I know it's not the same, believe me, as I would wish nothing more than for them to get proper on screen respect, but it's at least a good start, if nothing else.
i think the whole "not recognizing" the sonic screwdriver stuff is just the Doctor being cocky and saying "i don't need it, i have my remarkable mind" kinda like the 6th Doctor.
Jo Martin stole the show as the Doctor. They should have gone with her as the first female doctor. When she said "Hello, I'm the Doctor" there was no question, she was. Jodi just couldn't pull that off.
Now I could talk forever about what I would’ve done with Flux but one take I’ve seen that would’ve been really cool would be if The Fugitive Doctor was the main character/had a major side story throughout. Really would’ve been cool + justified the timeless child twist more + expanded the universe, imo ofcourse
So my understanding is this. Keep in mind this is basically fan fiction. At some point later, the Doctor reunites with the Fugitive at a point where she doesn't have the TARDIS. Maybe this is even before she was the Fugitive Doctor. Then somehow, she gets the Doctors TARDIS and uses it for her adventures. So it's actually a future version of the Doctor's TARDIS. She wouldnt remember this because of the paradox. As far as personality, the chameleon arch does seem to keep parts of it in place in Human Nature. John Smith does have some of the Doctor in him. Some of his inclinations can be seen as the Doctor. Ruth also had some leaks from the Doctor. And looking back, the 1st Doctor's personality and morals are pretty far from what we know today, so perhaps all the Doctor's development over the years just has a strong inclination to return to what the Doctor used to be pre-Hartnell. Pre-chameleon arch.
I feel that a repaired TARDIS chameleon circuit getting stuck every time it assumes the shape of a Police Box is feasible. Clearly an issue with Time Lord software/hardware. I've used real world tech that crashes every time I ask it to do something specific, but works when it does something else
upon thinking about it.... i understand where they were coming from. is it impossible? no. they're clearly trying to tell a story about destiny and how the doctor and the tardis were always drawn to eachother and compelled to explore time and space in a police box but... i personally am not a fan of that type of storytelling in dr who. It is just a matter of preference though
I kind of thought the Fugitive doctor could be an alternate universe doctor like (or maybe is) the meta crisis doctor. Or maybe she’s a clone of the doctor. Anything that isn’t a pre-Hartnel doctor 😂
@@dwfan91-It's I'd go with she is from a different universe but believes this one is hers and simply does not remember being brought to the main universe.
I still somewhat hope she is between Throughton and Pertwee, simply so Season 6B isn't ruining (in my opinion at least) the great Ending for the second Doctor, that he got in the War Games. Plus I think just characterwise it makes the most amount of sense (it still doesn't explain it with the Sonic Screwdiver memory thing, but I think it would be much easier than to explain the TARDIS Thing and so on)
Holographic Doctor + Watcher + TARDIS mixed with some as yet unseen catastrophe = fugutive Doctor, perhaps? Could it be some incarnation of the Doctor had to not only wipe their memory and hide via Chameleon Arch (Fugitive of the Judoon), but had to do it via the holographic Doctor, with help from the Watcher Doctor. The TARDIS *is* at least time machine after all. They can be both a pre and post Hartnell Doctor in some sense. Naw, that's too timey-wim...
I like the idea that she is the Doctor BEFORE they became the Doctor. I remember reading somewhere that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords/Ladies and I like to think that this is the Doctor before she could regenerate. Like getting the ability to regenerate CAUSES you to regenerate and that starts the cycle. At one point she could have chosen to go back to Gallifrey and become a Time Lady. She regenerates into Hartnell and uses a fob watch to retract the memories of what he did as her. He runs from Gallifrey with Susan and takes on the name The Doctor because he wants to be a healer rather than whatever he was as Ruth's Doctor
Jo Martin should’ve been the first female doctor but if she has to be a past incarnation the 6B theory is better than the pre-Hartnell explanation and breaks less parts of the canon
The idea of their being pre Hartnel Doctors has been around since the original script for The Power of the Daleks so at the very least 1966 and has been bounced back and forth if it is canon since then Chibnall is just the one to make it official sure if you someone who thinks it could have been better fair enough but the idea is not new RTD even said that he liked the idea of The Timeless Child just thought it could have been better so he might continue it
Isn't the Tardis sentient? She speaks to The Doctor often and calls him "her thief". If she can think and feel then maybe she likes the form on a Police Box and that's the one she keeps. As for the Timeless Child storyline. I think it shouldn't be kept in. It ruins everything that they wrote and planned out for so many years. Chibnall wanted to redo everything because he has an ego problem and just threw in a bunch of crap he made up. I think it's going to have to be tossed in the trash and rewritten. Consider it a mistake and none of what he wrote was real.
The TARDIS spoke *once* and only in one episode. Her being romantically attracted to the Doctor is strange and I'm not too big on the Idris stuff as a whole. If anything, that inclusion is more of an ego thing than ttc.
Instrad of the long winded explaination about how the chameleon circuit had a subconscious memory to break itself, they could just think "huh. She's a pre hartnell doctor. Lets make her tardis look different."
In my mind she either has to be pre-hartnel because any other explanation would be so over-the-top over-complicated that it would be more annoying than her just being a pre-hartnel doctor. The Chameleon Arch is the thing that solves all of this, It has the power to literally rewrite genetics and memories, while still leaving traces behind, which is all we need to explain whatever is going on with her. I don't even think we need to go as far as saying "the Chameleon Circuit rebreaks" or whatever, Just make it so that the Tardis The Doctor uses just likes looking like a Police Box, it gets stuck that way because it likes looking like that. It's that simple. All this discussion of alternate timelines and meta-crisises etc etc, They're all overcomplicating something that's already overcomplicated and messy. Those answers would just make it worse.
I like the idea of pre-Hartnell Doctors, I mean it was already implied in The Brain of Morbius, and I really like Jo Martin as the Fugitive Doctor. But the TARDIS being a police box doesn't make any sense storywise... Makes me wonder if Chibnall ever watched An Unearthly Child. And if he did, then he probably went with the police box shape for the cliffhanger of the episode, because yeah it's shocking for the audience to see the TARDIS buried there, it wouldn't have the same effect if it was a classic TARDIS.
My theory- The timeless child is in the doctor's future, as a way for the grand serpent AKA Rasoloin to rewrite Galafrays history, creating a new race of timelords in galafrays past by using the doctor's unknown amount of regeneration energy sent to 11. After 12 kicked him off gallifrey the serpent took over UNIT, found the Tardis after the village of the angels in the 1960s and planned his revenge on the doctor, tracking the tardis, to later Trap the doctor to become the timeless child. After Kate sent the serpent into deep space he found the primitive Galafray, manipulated Tectune to find the doctor after hijacking the Tardis. By creating Atropos the serpent is able to keep both versions of Galafrays timeline in place, creating Division and taking the doctor's memories to prevent them from stopping his plan. Ruth was saved by an earlier version of the Tardis, after 13 fell to earth, Ruth goes undetected by division, allowing her to find the original gallifrey before returning to see the damage caused by the flux, reuniting with Kavanista, meets bel and Vindor. The master is from the division timeline, unquestioned by 13 as Missy died away from 12. The master believed 13 was Ruth’s next face, recognising 13s tardis from the serpent's office on gallifrey. Ruth leaves her tardis behind for 13, at a ghost monument, and also sends Jack back to help 13. Bel and Vindor, the doctor's parents in the new timeline, separated by the serpent. Ruth must stop division by ensuring the doctor dies at trenzalore and erase her timeline and stop division. Bel and vendor's child takes the place of the Doctor with all the knowledge in the fob watch, repeating everything from 11s regeneration into 12 to timeless child. with only 12 regenerations and foreknowledge of what is to come, preventing the rise of division. 13 only encountered flux because the tardis traveled with Ruth first, The tardis the serpent hijacked to create the new timeline dematerialised when Ruth was saved, creating a destiny trap for the doctor but allowing Ruth to save her own future. Ngl- I’m dyslexic, writing about a show with multiple doctors and multiple timelines, tenses and pronouns is difficult, I just think that flux shows us the tail end of everything and we will see the story leading to it and I don’t know why RTD would ignore something so big, he’s also mates with Chibnal, but don’t think they would do it straight away, maybe Ncuti regenerates into the child… if anything above even happened 😂😂, Think it ties off most loosends
We saw Williams Hartnell’s Doctor steal the “blank” pre-chameleon TARDIS in Time of the Doctor… it really upsets us old folk (Jon Pertwee was my first Doctor), to see the history of the show undermined. I liked it when facts about the Doctor’s history were occasionally dropped in, such as Gallifrey being revealed to be the name of the Doctor’s home planet (The Time Warrior - 1973), or discovering that Time Lords only have 12 regenerations, (The Deadly Assassin 1976) etc. The Timeless Child was too much too soon and really rankles.
Even if it wasn't shown onscreen, a major part of the story of the first episode was the fact that the TARDIS broke *on the trip to the stone age* It didn't even break when the Doctor first landed in 1963, he'd been there for a while and had been travelling back and forth through history for many months before it broke. It is strange to me that so many people forget this key detail. I personally don't mind Jo Martins Doctor but if she is pre-1 its just lame straight up
I know I'm late to this video but I've got two possible theories about Fugitives tardis I don't know if they work or not but basically: Theory 1 - if the Tardis is the same as 13s then my theory is that Fugitives Tardis takes the appearance that 13 would recognise so maybe to the Fugitive Doctor and Gat etc it looks different I don't know how well it works but yeah. Theory 2 - Maybe the Fugitive Doctor was on earth for longer then we think and she landed in the 50s or 60s and Tardis disguises itself as a police box and it's unable to change because it was buried underground because we don't actually see her Tardis dematerialise it's lifted up onto the ship and then I think just flying through space I think? But basically after she drops of 13 and leaves the chameleon circuit works again and blends into wherever she went after. Yes it's again a massive coincidence but also I feel like it's not as much of a coincidence as the comic is
The chameleon circuit being broken makes sense: the chameleon circuit also has to be attached to the time elements of the tardis so what if it just broke across all time and space? What if every incarnation of the doctor’s tardis suddenly got stuck into this form across all time when the first doctor first went out.
I'm just wondering if it is David Tennant's doctor's next regeneration, that would be an interesting link and it would free the idea that the doctor is the timeless child.
Honestly, I would have preferred it if the Fugitive Doctor was an alternate universe Doctor. That way we don't have the whole palaver of when the Tardis became a police box before Hartnell, and the Timeless Child plotline doesn't muck up timelord history (thanks Chibnall). I'm okay with the Fugitive Doctor, I prefer her to the thirteenth; but to me she doesn't really fit into the timeline well. If she did come from a different reality, that could have opened the show up to the possibilities of alternate doctors meeting each other in the future, the Lego Doctor Who community would have more material to work with since 2010, and we could have got a 'What If?' style spinoff show.
Another question I have us is to do with Clara jumping in to the Doctors time stream. Like would she not have been able to see way more then 12 incarnations of the Doctor...?
if she didn't see the war doctor by the same logic there must be some method of hiding incarnations away from her like that. I don't really know though, the Impossible Girl storyline never made any kind of sense anyway
I find it most likely that its right after 12's regeneration Otherwise if we are counting pre hartnell doctors then matt smith would be like the 20th doctor and timelords should only be able to regenerate 12 times and matt smith was supposed to be the final regeneration
@@dwfan91- I have fallen down a rabbit hole and I would like to chance my opinion between the war doctor and the 9th doctor and that is why she carries a weapon and doesn't mind using violence if needed
I literally don’t understand the whole point of this video because they clearly said that they completely wiped the doctors memory. And since the furthest back they can remember is the first doctor it means that the fugitive doctor was before the first doctor…. Saved 9:49 minutes
the timeless chils gives us unlimited doctors, oh! such a great idea. im old enough to have watched peter score a 6, so it fits with me better because im older
idm the timeless children twist at all, in fact i made a video defending it. just the idea of one of those infinite doctors coincidentally owning the same tardis as the doctor we know and acting with the same moral compass as our doctor with no explanation is weird to me. still like the character
The TARDIS looks like a police box because the TARDIS wanted to look like one. She, The TARDIS is alive. She was outdated and old by the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th.
This is going to sound weird and confusing but go with me on this one, I think that the Doctor (as a child) got all of her memories of Tecteun experimenting on her to create the Time lords. She then regenerated until he was old enough to “become” a Time Lord and enlist into Division, not knowing that he is the timeless child. He then worked at Division, regenerating once or twice into the Fugitive Doctor (Jo Martin) and discovered the secret that she is the timeless child while going rogue on a mission, with Lee, to try and save from the Sontarans. Little did she know the Sontarans were being bribed by Swarm and Azure, as the Ravagers knew that the Doctor would save Karvanista, so they would find out where she is. The Ravagers kidnap the Doctor to reveal part of the secret to her but once she returns back to Gallifrey, she is ordered to be executed due to compromising Division. She then escapes with Lee to Earth to hide from the Divison. This is where the plot of Fugitive of the Judoon plays out, and then later in the future, the Doctor works with Division again to stop the Ravagers in the temple of Atropos (seen in the 3rd episode of Flux), in exchange for all her memories. They stop the Ravagers, have more missions but later in the future, the Division sees the Doctor as a threat again, and wipes his memories, leading to the beginning of William Hartnell’s incarnation. Wow. That was a lot.
I wouldnt take issue with her if she was just named "the fugitive" and didnt have a police box tardis, assuming as we have been lead to believe, that she IS pre Hartnell. If shes a future version then fair enough, ill accept that, but thats not what we've been lead to believe (not that Chibnall was any good at storytelling to being with). Id personally prefer that she is a "clone" or some offshoot of the doctor, explaining every plot hole. As it is now, unless RTD fixes those plot holes I refuse to believe this comic lol.
Funny how in the show we only had her in the flesh once, and then a manifestation followed by a flashback and hologram, but I think it seems unlikely that she's a future incarnation or else Jodie's Doctor should have forgot meeting her.
always amused me that Jo Martin absolutely KILLED Jodie Whitaker in the acting stakes. She was everything Dr Karen wasn't and its a shame she wasn't chosen as the first female Doctor.
Easy peasy leamony squeezy: The fugitive doctor comes after the 15th doctor, the previous doctors don’t remember being her because they haven’t been her yet. And the fugitive doctor doesn’t remember the 13th because nobody does lol 😂
I'm so confused.... regarding the TARDiS - how did Clara convince William Hartnell's Doctor to take the specific TARDiS he stole if the Doctor already existed and had the TARDiS? If the answer is wibbly wobbly timey wimey... well, I guess that is the answer, right?
Thanks for this video i was just thinking about this due to yesterday's special. I assumed she was a future version but well i don't like the timeless child at least this makes some sense
Maybe she doesn't really need to fit on this timeline... Because she's from another timeline! And something happened with her TARDIS that made her end up in the original timeline. That's a possibility.
I liked the Ruth-Dr because, unlike the Jodi-Dr who was a wouss, the Ruth-Dr had strength which we expect in The Doctor. Missy and Ruth-Dr being as accepted as they were by the fandom proves that the anti-Jodi comments were not racism or sexism but attacks on the bad woke writing and the bad acting of her series. If Ruth-Dr comes back, and I hope she does, she NEEDS good writers who will dump that woke-crap and do her the justice she deserves. As for where she came from... I do not trust comic books as they change things between issues with such casualness you never know what is going on today. I like the theory that when Partick-Dr was called by the Gallifreyans, they 'changed his appearance" (NOT REGENERATION) so he could do jobs for them. I like to think that Ruth-Dr was one of those 'changes' and Ruth-Dr was actually Patrick-Dr in a new 'appearance'. Then, somewhere, one of those 'appearances' got killed, he was jolted back to Patrick-Dr who then Regenerated into Pertwee-Dr. And yes, this explains the TARDIS but not the sonic screwdriver. The only other explanation is that Ruth-Dr comes from a different timeline, a parallel universe who crossed over to ours (possibly the chameleon circuit and TARDIS had a power surge as it was activated?) and didn't realize it. So she is a fugitive in a different universe than her own. Maybe she will accept this or maybe she will seek to return home but it would be interesting to see her meet previous Drs in her travels.
Jo Martin and Jodie Whitaker were FANTASTIC actors when they played the Doctor. It was Chibnall's crappy writing and direction that tanked the back story.
@@dwfan91- Then you might as well say she also had a TARDIS that got stuck in the same form and say the same thing with the First Doctor without needing to say it knew that it used to be that shape before being reverted to a default exterior.
I would prefer that the Fugitive Doctor comes either shortly before the Third Doctor or is a future incarnation because I refuse to acknowledge that Timeless Child nonsense. And the TV show constantly ignores the events of Doctor Who comic books, so I wouldn't take those Fugitive Doctor comics as "canon."
My personal headcanon was always she was from another Universe but if you had to make it fit into our timeline then that’s a good a place as any (I’m compiling a Season 6B currently as well) From what I’ve seen, it’s never stated that the comics aren’t canon and it’s the only in-universe explanation given for her so it’s all we got
I consider everything that occurred during the Chibnall/Whitaker Era to be nothing more than fan fiction. Terrible fan fiction. Still, it was an intriguing video.
Maybe she is a valeyard type thing or maybe she is actually attached to the time war in some way & is instead lets say an incarnation of Hartnell scooped up when he was young who died & regenerated into her & was raised in the division. Then we can throw the timeless children thing into the same pit as the half human thing & the looms. Basically non-existent. Master made it all up. The master has cheated death how many times, decayed, Trarken, TV Movie, War Master has new regeneration cycle, Saxon reborn, Missy has her good Valeyard at the end of her life, Spy Master. Sure there is more. Also we have other timelords that could have maybe become delusional like how that one guy did in Victorian London & believe they are the doctor but ain't properly the doctor some crazy timelord scheme.
It is dumb but it’s what happens when you try and fix something with tape. I still maintain 6B. The only thing that doesn’t work is the screwdriver but I have a fix. I’m pretty shot only used it as a screwdriver or the part (the battery). 13s screwdriver is so much more advanced it’s unreliable.
@@dwfan91- The Doctors we all know we’re shown and The first doctor stated ‘I am the first the original’ in five doctors. He also said ‘So there are five of me now’. In Brain of Morbius both are mind wrestling and as Morbius is a time lord why would it not be him?
I can get over The Timeless Child. Execution? Terrible. The whole thing? Dumb. But the Fugitive Doctor’s implication as a preHartnell Doctor throws in so many unnecessary wrenches into the timeline. Just let it be a regular TARDIS.
“Division” was Time Lord endeavor to divide/split/copy those that had the skills they needed, who they then controled through memory manipulation and forced regeneration. These copies would leave no missing person reports and could be eliminated when done with-the perfect spies and secret agents. William Hartnel’s first Doctor was divided this way, but the Renegade Doctor slipped from their control-as one might expect.
Jo Martin did an excellent portrayal of the doctor, I really liked her and I hope that some writer for the coming series can fit her properly in the known continuity. She rightfuly deserves a place alongside the other doctors.
Big Finish is working on a series starring her, which is really pleasant to see. They did the same treatment to Paul McGann - which is why he's my favorite Doctor of them all. I know it's not the same, believe me, as I would wish nothing more than for them to get proper on screen respect, but it's at least a good start, if nothing else.
i think the whole "not recognizing" the sonic screwdriver stuff is just the Doctor being cocky and saying "i don't need it, i have my remarkable mind" kinda like the 6th Doctor.
Jo Martin stole the show as the Doctor. They should have gone with her as the first female doctor. When she said "Hello, I'm the Doctor" there was no question, she was. Jodi just couldn't pull that off.
Now I could talk forever about what I would’ve done with Flux but one take I’ve seen that would’ve been really cool would be if The Fugitive Doctor was the main character/had a major side story throughout. Really would’ve been cool + justified the timeless child twist more + expanded the universe, imo ofcourse
So my understanding is this. Keep in mind this is basically fan fiction.
At some point later, the Doctor reunites with the Fugitive at a point where she doesn't have the TARDIS. Maybe this is even before she was the Fugitive Doctor. Then somehow, she gets the Doctors TARDIS and uses it for her adventures. So it's actually a future version of the Doctor's TARDIS. She wouldnt remember this because of the paradox.
As far as personality, the chameleon arch does seem to keep parts of it in place in Human Nature. John Smith does have some of the Doctor in him. Some of his inclinations can be seen as the Doctor. Ruth also had some leaks from the Doctor. And looking back, the 1st Doctor's personality and morals are pretty far from what we know today, so perhaps all the Doctor's development over the years just has a strong inclination to return to what the Doctor used to be pre-Hartnell. Pre-chameleon arch.
I feel that a repaired TARDIS chameleon circuit getting stuck every time it assumes the shape of a Police Box is feasible. Clearly an issue with Time Lord software/hardware. I've used real world tech that crashes every time I ask it to do something specific, but works when it does something else
upon thinking about it.... i understand where they were coming from. is it impossible? no. they're clearly trying to tell a story about destiny and how the doctor and the tardis were always drawn to eachother and compelled to explore time and space in a police box but... i personally am not a fan of that type of storytelling in dr who. It is just a matter of preference though
I like the idea that the Fugitive Doctor and the Valeyard are both Meta-Crisis Doctor selves.
Chibnall really broke the show didnt he.
he aint responsible for this one
@@dwfan91- but did create the fugitive doctor
He wrote some very very bad stories, but I don't think he broke the show.
@@gengarvenom1180 The timeless child literally broke the show.
@@purefoldnz3070 How?
I kind of thought the Fugitive doctor could be an alternate universe doctor like (or maybe is) the meta crisis doctor. Or maybe she’s a clone of the doctor. Anything that isn’t a pre-Hartnel doctor 😂
i always wished she was an alternate universe doctor
I hope she ends up being River Song. That would make a lot of sense and possibly also make several FANTASTIC new episodes that include her.
There was a lot of talk about parallel worlds, so in my mind, she is the Doctor (maybe even pre Hartnell) from a parallel world.
I think if I was in charge, personally, that’s how I would’ve played it
@@dwfan91-It's I'd go with she is from a different universe but believes this one is hers and simply does not remember being brought to the main universe.
I still somewhat hope she is between Throughton and Pertwee, simply so Season 6B isn't ruining (in my opinion at least) the great Ending for the second Doctor, that he got in the War Games. Plus I think just characterwise it makes the most amount of sense (it still doesn't explain it with the Sonic Screwdiver memory thing, but I think it would be much easier than to explain the TARDIS Thing and so on)
Holographic Doctor + Watcher + TARDIS mixed with some as yet unseen catastrophe = fugutive Doctor, perhaps? Could it be some incarnation of the Doctor had to not only wipe their memory and hide via Chameleon Arch (Fugitive of the Judoon), but had to do it via the holographic Doctor, with help from the Watcher Doctor.
The TARDIS *is* at least time machine after all. They can be both a pre and post Hartnell Doctor in some sense. Naw, that's too timey-wim...
Jo with her POWERFUL delivery, yes she should have been the DOCTOR!!
Was kind of hoping that the Fugitive Doctor was going to lead to the creation of the Valeyard in some way/shape/form.
I like the idea that she is the Doctor BEFORE they became the Doctor. I remember reading somewhere that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords/Ladies and I like to think that this is the Doctor before she could regenerate. Like getting the ability to regenerate CAUSES you to regenerate and that starts the cycle. At one point she could have chosen to go back to Gallifrey and become a Time Lady. She regenerates into Hartnell and uses a fob watch to retract the memories of what he did as her. He runs from Gallifrey with Susan and takes on the name The Doctor because he wants to be a healer rather than whatever he was as Ruth's Doctor
She would've been a better doc than Jolie Foster, not that Jolie isn't great. But the way she handled herself and acted was amazing
Jo Martin should’ve been the first female doctor but if she has to be a past incarnation the 6B theory is better than the pre-Hartnell explanation and breaks less parts of the canon
The idea of their being pre Hartnel Doctors has been around since the original script for The Power of the Daleks so at the very least 1966 and has been bounced back and forth if it is canon since then Chibnall is just the one to make it official sure if you someone who thinks it could have been better fair enough but the idea is not new RTD even said that he liked the idea of The Timeless Child just thought it could have been better so he might continue it
im not inherently against the timeless child or pre-hartnell drs for the record
Isn't the Tardis sentient? She speaks to The Doctor often and calls him "her thief". If she can think and feel then maybe she likes the form on a Police Box and that's the one she keeps.
As for the Timeless Child storyline. I think it shouldn't be kept in. It ruins everything that they wrote and planned out for so many years. Chibnall wanted to redo everything because he has an ego problem and just threw in a bunch of crap he made up. I think it's going to have to be tossed in the trash and rewritten. Consider it a mistake and none of what he wrote was real.
The TARDIS spoke *once* and only in one episode. Her being romantically attracted to the Doctor is strange and I'm not too big on the Idris stuff as a whole. If anything, that inclusion is more of an ego thing than ttc.
Instrad of the long winded explaination about how the chameleon circuit had a subconscious memory to break itself, they could just think "huh. She's a pre hartnell doctor. Lets make her tardis look different."
THATS WHAT IM SAYING
In my mind she either has to be pre-hartnel because any other explanation would be so over-the-top over-complicated that it would be more annoying than her just being a pre-hartnel doctor.
The Chameleon Arch is the thing that solves all of this, It has the power to literally rewrite genetics and memories, while still leaving traces behind, which is all we need to explain whatever is going on with her.
I don't even think we need to go as far as saying "the Chameleon Circuit rebreaks" or whatever, Just make it so that the Tardis The Doctor uses just likes looking like a Police Box, it gets stuck that way because it likes looking like that. It's that simple.
All this discussion of alternate timelines and meta-crisises etc etc, They're all overcomplicating something that's already overcomplicated and messy. Those answers would just make it worse.
Alternate Dr from another universe and an amazing character.
I like the idea of pre-Hartnell Doctors, I mean it was already implied in The Brain of Morbius, and I really like Jo Martin as the Fugitive Doctor. But the TARDIS being a police box doesn't make any sense storywise... Makes me wonder if Chibnall ever watched An Unearthly Child. And if he did, then he probably went with the police box shape for the cliffhanger of the episode, because yeah it's shocking for the audience to see the TARDIS buried there, it wouldn't have the same effect if it was a classic TARDIS.
To his credit, I don't think Chibnall wrote the comic
My theory-
The timeless child is in the doctor's future, as a way for the grand serpent AKA Rasoloin to rewrite Galafrays history, creating a new race of timelords in galafrays past by using the doctor's unknown amount of regeneration energy sent to 11.
After 12 kicked him off gallifrey the serpent took over UNIT, found the Tardis after the village of the angels in the 1960s and planned his revenge on the doctor, tracking the tardis, to later Trap the doctor to become the timeless child.
After Kate sent the serpent into deep space he found the primitive Galafray, manipulated Tectune to find the doctor after hijacking the Tardis.
By creating Atropos the serpent is able to keep both versions of Galafrays timeline in place, creating Division and taking the doctor's memories to prevent them from stopping his plan.
Ruth was saved by an earlier version of the Tardis, after 13 fell to earth, Ruth goes undetected by division, allowing her to find the original gallifrey before returning to see the damage caused by the flux, reuniting with Kavanista, meets bel and Vindor.
The master is from the division timeline, unquestioned by 13 as Missy died away from 12.
The master believed 13 was Ruth’s next face, recognising 13s tardis from the serpent's office on gallifrey.
Ruth leaves her tardis behind for 13, at a ghost monument, and also sends Jack back to help 13.
Bel and Vindor, the doctor's parents in the new timeline, separated by the serpent.
Ruth must stop division by ensuring the doctor dies at trenzalore and erase her timeline and stop division.
Bel and vendor's child takes the place of the Doctor with all the knowledge in the fob watch, repeating everything from 11s regeneration into 12 to timeless child.
with only 12 regenerations and foreknowledge of what is to come, preventing the rise of division.
13 only encountered flux because the tardis traveled with Ruth first,
The tardis the serpent hijacked to create the new timeline dematerialised when Ruth was saved, creating a destiny trap for the doctor but allowing Ruth to save her own future.
Ngl- I’m dyslexic, writing about a show with multiple doctors and multiple timelines, tenses and pronouns is difficult, I just think that flux shows us the tail end of everything and we will see the story leading to it and I don’t know why RTD would ignore something so big, he’s also mates with Chibnal, but don’t think they would do it straight away, maybe Ncuti regenerates into the child… if anything above even happened 😂😂, Think it ties off most loosends
Awesome theory!
Just to clarify, Fugitive does NOT say that she does not know what a Sonic Screwdriver is, only that she is clever enough not to need one.
We saw Williams Hartnell’s Doctor steal the “blank” pre-chameleon TARDIS in Time of the Doctor… it really upsets us old folk (Jon Pertwee was my first Doctor), to see the history of the show undermined. I liked it when facts about the Doctor’s history were occasionally dropped in, such as Gallifrey being revealed to be the name of the Doctor’s home planet (The Time Warrior - 1973), or discovering that Time Lords only have 12 regenerations, (The Deadly Assassin 1976) etc.
The Timeless Child was too much too soon and really rankles.
Even if it wasn't shown onscreen, a major part of the story of the first episode was the fact that the TARDIS broke *on the trip to the stone age*
It didn't even break when the Doctor first landed in 1963, he'd been there for a while and had been travelling back and forth through history for many months before it broke. It is strange to me that so many people forget this key detail. I personally don't mind Jo Martins Doctor but if she is pre-1 its just lame straight up
I loved her version of the Doctor and I wish she would get a spin-off.
I only saw the Fugitive Doctor once. Perhaps I would have seen her more frequently if we lived in the UK?
I know I'm late to this video but I've got two possible theories about Fugitives tardis I don't know if they work or not but basically:
Theory 1 - if the Tardis is the same as 13s then my theory is that Fugitives Tardis takes the appearance that 13 would recognise so maybe to the Fugitive Doctor and Gat etc it looks different I don't know how well it works but yeah.
Theory 2 - Maybe the Fugitive Doctor was on earth for longer then we think and she landed in the 50s or 60s and Tardis disguises itself as a police box and it's unable to change because it was buried underground because we don't actually see her Tardis dematerialise it's lifted up onto the ship and then I think just flying through space I think? But basically after she drops of 13 and leaves the chameleon circuit works again and blends into wherever she went after. Yes it's again a massive coincidence but also I feel like it's not as much of a coincidence as the comic is
Very true, crazier things have happened in the comics
The chameleon circuit being broken makes sense: the chameleon circuit also has to be attached to the time elements of the tardis so what if it just broke across all time and space? What if every incarnation of the doctor’s tardis suddenly got stuck into this form across all time when the first doctor first went out.
I'm just wondering if it is David Tennant's doctor's next regeneration, that would be an interesting link and it would free the idea that the doctor is the timeless child.
Honestly, I would have preferred it if the Fugitive Doctor was an alternate universe Doctor. That way we don't have the whole palaver of when the Tardis became a police box before Hartnell, and the Timeless Child plotline doesn't muck up timelord history (thanks Chibnall). I'm okay with the Fugitive Doctor, I prefer her to the thirteenth; but to me she doesn't really fit into the timeline well.
If she did come from a different reality, that could have opened the show up to the possibilities of alternate doctors meeting each other in the future, the Lego Doctor Who community would have more material to work with since 2010, and we could have got a 'What If?' style spinoff show.
Another question I have us is to do with Clara jumping in to the Doctors time stream. Like would she not have been able to see way more then 12 incarnations of the Doctor...?
if she didn't see the war doctor by the same logic there must be some method of hiding incarnations away from her like that. I don't really know though, the Impossible Girl storyline never made any kind of sense anyway
I find it most likely that its right after 12's regeneration Otherwise if we are counting pre hartnell doctors then matt smith would be like the 20th doctor and timelords should only be able to regenerate 12 times and matt smith was supposed to be the final regeneration
the drs regenerations were reset with the 1st dr
@@dwfan91- I have fallen down a rabbit hole and I would like to chance my opinion between the war doctor and the 9th doctor and that is why she carries a weapon and doesn't mind using violence if needed
@@Boop__Doop W
All the memories of pre-Hartnell Doctor's were erased, but stored in a watch, which is now kept safely by the TARDIS.
I literally don’t understand the whole point of this video because they clearly said that they completely wiped the doctors memory. And since the furthest back they can remember is the first doctor it means that the fugitive doctor was before the first doctor…. Saved 9:49 minutes
Timeless Child crap was stupid but I did like this Doctor. She did her so well. Instead of memories or holograms give us her back.
the timeless chils gives us unlimited doctors, oh! such a great idea. im old enough to have watched peter score a 6, so it fits with me better because im older
idm the timeless children twist at all, in fact i made a video defending it. just the idea of one of those infinite doctors coincidentally owning the same tardis as the doctor we know and acting with the same moral compass as our doctor with no explanation is weird to me. still like the character
Dude, I love your content. You are going to blow the fuck UP! KEEP IT UP!
@@Just_Tim91 thank you so much!
The TARDIS looks like a police box because the TARDIS wanted to look like one.
She, The TARDIS is alive. She was outdated and old by the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th.
This is going to sound weird and confusing but go with me on this one, I think that the Doctor (as a child) got all of her memories of Tecteun experimenting on her to create the Time lords. She then regenerated until he was old enough to “become” a Time Lord and enlist into Division, not knowing that he is the timeless child. He then worked at Division, regenerating once or twice into the Fugitive Doctor (Jo Martin) and discovered the secret that she is the timeless child while going rogue on a mission, with Lee, to try and save from the Sontarans. Little did she know the Sontarans were being bribed by Swarm and Azure, as the Ravagers knew that the Doctor would save Karvanista, so they would find out where she is. The Ravagers kidnap the Doctor to reveal part of the secret to her but once she returns back to Gallifrey, she is ordered to be executed due to compromising Division. She then escapes with Lee to Earth to hide from the Divison. This is where the plot of Fugitive of the Judoon plays out, and then later in the future, the Doctor works with Division again to stop the Ravagers in the temple of Atropos (seen in the 3rd episode of Flux), in exchange for all her memories. They stop the Ravagers, have more missions but later in the future, the Division sees the Doctor as a threat again, and wipes his memories, leading to the beginning of William Hartnell’s incarnation. Wow. That was a lot.
This would be awesome
I really enjoyed both The Fugitive Doctor and The Timeless Child as well as the hole Chibnall/Whittaker era
W massive W
I wouldnt take issue with her if she was just named "the fugitive" and didnt have a police box tardis, assuming as we have been lead to believe, that she IS pre Hartnell. If shes a future version then fair enough, ill accept that, but thats not what we've been lead to believe (not that Chibnall was any good at storytelling to being with). Id personally prefer that she is a "clone" or some offshoot of the doctor, explaining every plot hole. As it is now, unless RTD fixes those plot holes I refuse to believe this comic lol.
I like the alternate universe idea personally
Funny how in the show we only had her in the flesh once, and then a manifestation followed by a flashback and hologram, but I think it seems unlikely that she's a future incarnation or else Jodie's Doctor should have forgot meeting her.
It is a bit strange isn’t it
always amused me that Jo Martin absolutely KILLED Jodie Whitaker in the acting stakes.
She was everything Dr Karen wasn't and its a shame she wasn't chosen as the first female Doctor.
I dont get it, so Fugitive doctor regenerated into First doctor?
Easy peasy leamony squeezy: The fugitive doctor comes after the 15th doctor, the previous doctors don’t remember being her because they haven’t been her yet. And the fugitive doctor doesn’t remember the 13th because nobody does lol 😂
I think to clear things up, they should just have her be a version of The Doctor from an Alternate timeline,
That's what I would do
I'm so confused.... regarding the TARDiS - how did Clara convince William Hartnell's Doctor to take the specific TARDiS he stole if the Doctor already existed and had the TARDiS? If the answer is wibbly wobbly timey wimey... well, I guess that is the answer, right?
the answer is that both plot points are dumb
Wouldnt hold your breathe for RTD 2 did you say??
I pray she comes back to play a proper Doctor, hopefully after Ncuti.
Thanks for this video i was just thinking about this due to yesterday's special. I assumed she was a future version but well i don't like the timeless child at least this makes some sense
Maybe she doesn't really need to fit on this timeline... Because she's from another timeline! And something happened with her TARDIS that made her end up in the original timeline. That's a possibility.
I've always liked the idea of an alternate Doctor, whether or not it was the intention.
@@dwfan91- Remember the Shalka Doctor. He's 9 but in a timeline where the time war didn't happen.
my brain hurts after the video and comments lol
The Tardis turns into a Blue Box because it likes being a blue box. Easy
I mean I can't argue against it
As someone just starting to watch series 4 I am both reslly excited and scared of what I have just gotten into
LMAO
I liked the Ruth-Dr because, unlike the Jodi-Dr who was a wouss, the Ruth-Dr had strength which we expect in The Doctor.
Missy and Ruth-Dr being as accepted as they were by the fandom proves that the anti-Jodi comments were not racism or sexism but attacks on the bad woke writing and the bad acting of her series.
If Ruth-Dr comes back, and I hope she does, she NEEDS good writers who will dump that woke-crap and do her the justice she deserves.
As for where she came from... I do not trust comic books as they change things between issues with such casualness you never know what is going on today. I like the theory that when Partick-Dr was called by the Gallifreyans, they 'changed his appearance" (NOT REGENERATION) so he could do jobs for them. I like to think that Ruth-Dr was one of those 'changes' and Ruth-Dr was actually Patrick-Dr in a new 'appearance'. Then, somewhere, one of those 'appearances' got killed, he was jolted back to Patrick-Dr who then Regenerated into Pertwee-Dr.
And yes, this explains the TARDIS but not the sonic screwdriver.
The only other explanation is that Ruth-Dr comes from a different timeline, a parallel universe who crossed over to ours (possibly the chameleon circuit and TARDIS had a power surge as it was activated?) and didn't realize it. So she is a fugitive in a different universe than her own. Maybe she will accept this or maybe she will seek to return home but it would be interesting to see her meet previous Drs in her travels.
The Timeless Child and the Fugitive Doctor are stupid completely and should not be canon.
100% agree. Ignore the entire Chibnall disaster
I'd say of all the terrible things Chibnall did, those two aren't even that bad. They barely impact the story in my opinion.
@@purefoldnz3070 I say redo Capaldi's regeneration have Tennent come in there
you can always tell whos a londoner
I miss when it was Eleven who snuck in there and disabled the circuit himself
*sigh* nothing in Who makes sense anymore
that didnt make sense either😂
Jo Martin and Jodie Whitaker were FANTASTIC actors when they played the Doctor. It was Chibnall's crappy writing and direction that tanked the back story.
For me I place her as the 6B doctor.
To me she’s in Season 6B
Jo should be the doctor
Maybe the TARDIS psychically and telepathically knew because the Doctor had used another TARDIS with that exterior.
That is the given explanation
@@dwfan91- Then you might as well say she also had a TARDIS that got stuck in the same form and say the same thing with the First Doctor without needing to say it knew that it used to be that shape before being reverted to a default exterior.
I would prefer that the Fugitive Doctor comes either shortly before the Third Doctor or is a future incarnation because I refuse to acknowledge that Timeless Child nonsense. And the TV show constantly ignores the events of Doctor Who comic books, so I wouldn't take those Fugitive Doctor comics as "canon."
My personal headcanon was always she was from another Universe but if you had to make it fit into our timeline then that’s a good a place as any (I’m compiling a Season 6B currently as well) From what I’ve seen, it’s never stated that the comics aren’t canon and it’s the only in-universe explanation given for her so it’s all we got
I consider everything that occurred during the Chibnall/Whitaker Era to be nothing more than fan fiction. Terrible fan fiction. Still, it was an intriguing video.
Maybe she is a valeyard type thing or maybe she is actually attached to the time war in some way & is instead lets say an incarnation of Hartnell scooped up when he was young who died & regenerated into her & was raised in the division. Then we can throw the timeless children thing into the same pit as the half human thing & the looms. Basically non-existent. Master made it all up. The master has cheated death how many times, decayed, Trarken, TV Movie, War Master has new regeneration cycle, Saxon reborn, Missy has her good Valeyard at the end of her life, Spy Master. Sure there is more. Also we have other timelords that could have maybe become delusional like how that one guy did in Victorian London & believe they are the doctor but ain't properly the doctor some crazy timelord scheme.
thatd be awesome, really cool ideas.
It is dumb but it’s what happens when you try and fix something with tape. I still maintain 6B. The only thing that doesn’t work is the screwdriver but I have a fix. I’m pretty shot only used it as a screwdriver or the part (the battery). 13s screwdriver is so much more advanced it’s unreliable.
True!
The faces shown are those of Morbius
They are not.
@@dwfan91- The Doctors we all know we’re shown and The first doctor stated ‘I am the first the original’ in five doctors. He also said ‘So there are five of me now’. In Brain of Morbius both are mind wrestling and as Morbius is a time lord why would it not be him?
@@user-rw1rq8jz6g because the creators of the episode came out and said its the doctor
6:29 bahahahahahahahahahaha *wipes tears. C'mon.
its... idek what it is
@@dwfan91- a train wreck
I can get over The Timeless Child. Execution? Terrible. The whole thing? Dumb. But the Fugitive Doctor’s implication as a preHartnell Doctor throws in so many unnecessary wrenches into the timeline. Just let it be a regular TARDIS.
thx I need that
NEVER!
never what
Nope. Just No. A Doctor from another dimension... Done. Retconned. Hartnell is/was the 1st Doctor.
I like the actress a lot but the whole concept of this ‘Doctor’ annoys me.
Meh.... It's the master... and the master is the doctor... spoilers!!!
*promosm* 😉
Why do u guys accept this nonsense
the fugitive doctor doesn't exist, it was just a nightmare the 12th doctor was having.
being real the hybrid is dumber than the fugitive doctor
If there is a nightmare….
This isn't Dr Who.
wtf happened to this show