I think you might as well use a separate duct grade cat5e cable rather than faffing around with jointing to the one in your EV ultra armoured. If you're running in ducting anyway, why bother with adding the armoured joint when you could just use the rubber cable for the full run? Don't want to sound negative though, thank you for the interesting videos and showing us new ideas and products!
I haven't used much rubber cable, but I suppose, the rubber cable could be damaged by rodents easier (if they get into the ducting) and perhaps the rubber insulation could deteriorate quicker?
@@karljones4321 the rubber H07RN-F cable is not designed for fixed wiring applications and it's current carrying capacity and cable characteristics (volt drop etc) don't align with the equivalent size SWA cable, and a plastic duct offers no mechanical protection so the cable is vulnerable to mechanical damage unless the trench is backfilled with sufficient concrete
Federal Republic of Germany - we use H07RN-F outside for heavy uses, e.g. construction site areas, coal mining areas, music scene, camping place areas, aso., where we change the cable way normally often. Same for EV-things, solar parks, etc. - often inside plastic pipe outside or inside the soil if it hard wired same you demonstration it. Of course, RCD 30mA (or less) after CU it is every time a good idea for outside cables - with or without CEE-sockets between.
I would drill a exit hole lower on the pillar and you can make a neat bend. Joints are a extra point of failure. But everyone has their prefrences. Love the videos you guys do.
Australian here - we use Clipsal 56-series style connector (like your commando connectors) above ground, or immediately below ground (so long as drainage is there) so there's a breakaway connector if the pedistal gets knocked-over. This means we can safely isolate and repair without the need of messing with gel connectors. It does mean you end up with a different pedistal design.
@@johnburns4017 and you can tell that the UK is a wet country as soon as they showed the inside of the box near the beginning of the video, as the ducting box had a puddle of water at the bottom of it. I'm curious how well they hold up in exceptionally wet conditions where those ducting boxes end up with an extreme amount of water in them. In the case the pedestal gets damaged and requires to be replaced, I imagine replacing the rubberised cable from the junction box is easier than having to pull the whole length of cable through again.
@@johnburns4017 You do know you can go to IP69 with IEC60309/Commando connectors? If they "degrade" then they should not be rated IP69 in the first place and the joint they used was only IP68 rated.
Rubber cables are the way forward. SWAs/AWAS are pretty much impossible to terminate in some of the larger EV installs. Some manufacturers are now beginning to class their HO7RN as duct grade.
the rubber H07RN-F cable is not designed for fixed wiring applications and it's current carrying capacity and cable characteristics (volt drop etc) don't align with the equivalent size SWA cable, and a plastic duct offers no mechanical protection so the cable is vulnerable to mechanical damage unless the trench is backfilled with sufficient concrete
@@adventuremaxdo you have a source for that? You posted that a few times here, but no source. Volt drop? Really? Why would a stranded cable drop more voltage, we can easily measure their resistance/impedance for a let"s say 1 m cable
@@adventuremax I understand the HO7RN is not covered by BS7671, so what is the source about the voltage drop, what other characteristics do not align with the equivalent size SWA cable (you said etc so there are some more)? As for the mechanical damage, as hundreds of comments here attest, this is the preferred cable in a lot of very hostile environments and seems to be very tough. Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to get the whole picture here
@@adventuremax EN 50565-2 says HO7RN is suitable for fixed installations as well, according to a seller documentation: "Heavy duty, rubber sheathed cable for use with medium mechanical stress in dry, damp, wet rooms, in agricultural premises and outdoors. Suitable for equipment in commercial operations, e.g. heating plates, hand lamps, electric tools such as drills or circular saws. For fixed installation on plaster as well as in temporary constructions. When installed in pipes or similar enclosed systems, the use of the cable is permitted up to and including 1000 V AC voltage or up to 750 V DC voltage against earth."
I think the inability / difficulty with getting armoured cable to where it's actually needed is a failure of design by the manufacturer of the EV charger. How about making a charger, and stand that can actually accept an swa! Hmm. . . seems like there's a gap in the market here
The inability of the British electrician providing an infrastructure and run a normal cable inside it is also a big failure.. how about getting into the 21st century and stop doing things in the most rudimentary way?
@@supersparks9466 i just said it above 🤷🏻♂️ why do you guys use swa as a one for all solution when there’s so many suitable options that can be run inside a tube..? Laziness to create a bit of infrastructure and a couple man holes? 🤷🏻♂️ this immagrunt is only complaining about what he always complained about in this country electric industry.. so advanced faffing around with testing little wires but so primitive in the execution..
Big downside to using H07 in ducts is mice and rats will have a good chew on it, had it happen way too often.. it's those cheap posts, needs to be designed with a JB enclosure where you could terminate an armoured then come off with something more sensible for the ev charger terminals
@@efixx Plenty of field mice oop norf ... ive used the smaller wiska box with mixed results, not sure about the lager one .. prefer to crimp larger cables in joints
The standard in Norway is now pretty much to use TEC-FLEX RV-K 0,6/1,0KV. Its a UV resistant double layer pvc cable with XLPE insulation. Super flexable especially in warm weather and can actually be buried straight down into the ground with no further protection, still following our code. However i allways use PEM plastic water lines to protect it.
If it's protected in a duct rather than direct burial I'd say much better to run the tough rubber throughout, rather than introduce a complex joint as another potential point of failure. Also run external grade Cat 5 in one run, again avoiding a joint and avoiding exposing that non externally rated section between the gel joint and the Cat5 joint. Also bringing out the Cat5 beside the flex can compromise the adhesive lining seal of the shrink tube which could provide a channel that will actually promote wicking of water into the connector circumventing the gel.
Good to use rubber cables and certainly more appropriate in many situations. As for the gel seal joint they are all well and good but can break down. Having used gel joints in the telco industry for years they are certainly easy but not totally reliable. It was always a no no to have telephone cable in the same duct as power for reasons of noise and inductance and perhaps more importantly contact which could be fatel if not expecting high votages on the cat5 where i wouldn't want to see any more than 50V. Once again great video and highly informative.
Not an electrician myself, but an IT engineer, and we run a lot of big rubber cables in data centers, I personally like them as they drape very neatly on shelves, and can be ran under raised floors as well. If memory serves they have quite high current ratings as well compared to their cross section, which of course is advantageous. Good on you guys for doing the data cable properly, as an IT guy I hate it when people treat data cabling as fancy telegraph wiring. 😂 However, I’m not so sure about the signal integrity of that cable, commonly we avoid running them parallel with high current power cabling (low signal cabling should preferably only cross power cabling at right angles), and that cable doesn’t even seem to be shielded, and if so, it should be terminated with shielded connectors and joined with shielded joining blocks. If you have access to a data certification tester, I’d be very interested in seeing if it’ll pass CAT5 and CAT6 certification.
As an ex CCTV and networking engineer, I really don't like this. That 'ip65 cat5 join' can and will fail. I've had countless issues with them. You'd be better running the data cable separately in a dedicated duct grade cable, or making the join above ground level.
Sub joints are pretty good IF installed correctly. It is better not to have them underground however and if ducted or otherwise protected rubber cable is cheaper and much easier to work with
So when you joined the CAT5 cable, it was actually CAT5a with a screen around it, you used non screened connectors so the final length of it had an incorrectly grounded screen. Unless you also did not use a screened connector at the indoors end, in which case the entire run was not screened correctly.
@@CoolSteve08 in those cases (ie running screened cables where the is a significant chance of different earth potentials) you only connect the screen to one of the crimp terminals, and not to the other - so the cable is screened, but not connected at one of the crimp ends to avoid creating an earth loop.
Your terminology is wrong. Firstly, no such thing as CAT5a. It's CAT5e with the 'e' meaning 'enhanced'. CAT5 is an obsolete standard and is replaced by CAT5e. CAT5e can come in both shielded and unshielded variants and there are different forms of shielding too e.g. S/FTP, F/UTP and others, all covered by the general term of STP. The CAT5e shown in the EV Ultra cable here appears to be of the F/UTP variety meaning it has an overall foil shield around the pairs which are not individually shielded themselves. My understanding is that the current EV chargers don't require shielded CAT5e, many of them simply using it as a means of connecting the current transformers so it's not even digital data being carried. The fact that they have not used the shield in this example is therefore not critical.
Used H07 cable to replace and extend the power cable on my new ovens, both had 16a demand so used the 4mm cable with the blue industrial sockets. Fed from CU in 6mm T&E. Used enough cable to allow the ovens to be pulled from the housing and sit on a work bench if needed. Fortunately had enough space at the back of the ovens / housing to do this.
In the video the question is put to us whether or not to use HO7 cable for the full run or just stick to the method used in the video. There like in most cases arguments for and against this, and I’m not going to preach my own agenda here, I wanted to merely point out that HO7 cable is rated as flexible cable and as such has is own usage guides in BS7671. I work in the water industry and most pumps come from the manufacturer with a form of this cable e.g. Flygt,s SUBCAB cable, and in most cases this can’t be connected to the motor drive directly, usually due to distances. So we would always use an armoured cable as the extension with a suitable JB connection. In conclusion I believe what was done in the video is quite correct, however I would tend to use a separate data cable as joists can cause issues and it may make the supply cable a little cheaper to install.
Great example of a nice solution. Only extra step I would take would be using shielded RJ45 plugs in the join to keep the screen continuous to the charger. 👍🏻
Ditto… the cable was shielded and the RJ45 plugs used were only to CAT5 standard so they need to offer the metal continuity screening capability, as does the IP68 connector… or just run a fresh pair of separate CAT6/7 exterior grade cables, being aware that not all shielded RJ45 plugs can take the heavier grade of exterior cable. I’ve said to run a pair of CAT6/7 cables in anticipation of a future failure; given the low cable cost, it makes sense early on to plan ahead and consider the inevitable failure. Depending on weather/climate conditions in the duct/pillar you may only get a few years before failures appear. How many EV charge points around are offline due to failures? In most cases it’s the data link that has failed, not the supply cable.
Recently worked in a university research/engineering complex and the entire installation was wired in HO7 cable. Only issue i could see was not all terminations were made using ferrules.
Depends on the terminal the fine stranded is joined to. Some spring loaded connectors from the likes of PhoenixContact etc. or properly sized cage clamps actually recommend against using ferrules. So not every missing ferrule is a violation.
As this gel joint has screw terminals, would I be right in saying they must always be accessible for maintenance as I thought screw terminals are not classed as a non maintainable Mechanical joint?
I agree with you Mr Williams. I still feel it is a worthy point to make as I am sure there may be a modicum of newbies that might assume it could be buried like the old resin torpedos with crimped connections.
At a guess, this was to pick up the earth connection with the spring loaded earth band, as you would do in a standard torpedo joint and then realised it wasn't required.
@@jollyfinequality9865 I expect you are right. I would have thought they would have edited that bit out and gone straight to the heat shrink collapsing onto the cable 😀
@@jollyfinequality9865 I'm also in two minds about the outer layer of heat shrink trapping the data cable to the power cable. Because it extends beyond the gel into the gland, if the gland itself is not totally waterproof, then there could be a risk of water tracking under the heat shrink in the gaps between the cables. Hopefully that last inch between the heat shrink and the terminals will be sufficient gel to do the job. Perhaps use two short sections of heat shrink, with a decent gap, to allow the gel to get in and do its job.
To properly glue down the armour strands. If they are left ending with the outer cable insulation, they are not held in place and butt the heat shrink. That way they could poke through the heat shrink when the cable is handled. When pressed flat between inner insulation and heat shrink it is much less likely for them to do that, they'd just slide between the two.
For years we've been using flexible cables for garden and industrial installations and just running duct work after it was specified by one clients designer. The duct work itself though always had to be guarded to prevent rodent entry. Other than that you already have the relevant electrical and mechanical protection provided it's installed at the correct depths with the lay out as installed listed at the intake of the site. Also if you're using a duct system it's easier to run a Cat5/6 to each point if the EV points are far from a wifi signal and have a hard wired option for updates. Significant saving to be made doing it that way.
Just my personal opinion, I wouldn’t’ve put heatshrink around the power and cat5 9:45. I’m concerned it could block the gel and be a path for water to track up. Also, I’ve found that the thin insulation on the individual wires in a cat5 cable is surprisingly easy to melt together with a heat gun if you’re not careful.
@@noelburke6224 Yeah, the insulation on the cat5 is easy to melt. As far as moisture ingress goes, the heatshrink they used was adhesive filled, so it shouldn't cause a problem with moisture ingress.
I think this is a great solution from what I've seen from the poured joints they're permanent this is something that could be undone and repaired, replaced without having to snip off some shortening the cable that you probably don't have enough of.
I work In dewatering we use HO7 RNF for all the drop cables from control panels to the motors with a submersible joints to extend the motor tail. Personally think SWA is used when people don’t want to design a install and just default SWA for outside. You very rarely see it in Europe come to think of it I never have……
Is twin wall ducting classed as having “equivalent mechanical protection”? The reg states “Except where installed in a conduit or duct which provides equivalent protection against mechanical damage, a cable buried in the ground shall incorporate an earthed armour or metal sheath or both, suitable for use as a protective conductor.” How do we determine “equivalent”?
A flexible cable will do fine. Charging columns in a parking area are prone to be hit by cars/trucks and sooner or later will need repair. Maybe future models will slip just over the cable coming out of the base making it easier to install. First the cable, next the box column and not first the column and then the cable.
As always a very high standard of work. However one question for you, as you guys are often the championing the use of tightens torques on connections which I think is particularly relevant on connections that are not easily checked in planned maintenance schedules. Like this one. You also mentioned relaxation and the need of a retightening which is a very good point. Many other types of mechanical fixture connection procedures often will detail time scales to re-torquing of mechanical connectors to account for creep as a property of materials with temperature bands detailed, etc. We used to have to do daily checks of our torque wrenches with a norbar tester. A wee saying our professor in Power Engineering used to say “I have never known an Electron to fail, electrical failures are always mechanical in nature” not that he was prone to any form of bias. This came to mind after just looking into 1/4 inch torque wrenches of 1/4 inch hex grub screws that specified 39nm when all the 1/4 inch drive torque wrenches I could easily find had a limit of 25nm. Needed a visit to Amazon for a drive adapter. This is with bearing in mind that we all have calibrated arms and wrists for matching desired torques. 😂
I hate screw joints, and I wouldn't have put the Cat5 cable in the joining box, since when you put two cables through one hole the water will get in through where the cables touch each other
Already had to do exactly what you have just shown because there is no way to gland an armoured cable into the EV charge point I was supplied by the client
Careful when bending the CAT5 cable, they aren't designed to be bent as much as it is in the video. Shouldn't impact it too much but will means it may have lost some performance as it will have been crushed at bit
On that note I had some I think cheap rescued cable that I was working with insisted on kinking itself. Tested OK but I don't have a certifier. With that said some cable is better to bending than others but it's something to be aware of. *Well tested OK except for the one I put in a ceiling that I have both ends terminated wrong... shocks I did 4 ends and wouldn't you know it the two that ended up in the ceiling we're wrong It just barely worked at 100mb for the event.
In my IWP we fitted an EV charger and only used HO7, only because we could fit it through a steel drain right beside the back door then feed it through to the attic and down to the CU, I myself didn't make the terminations I just assisted in keeping the wire straight when feeding it through and fitting it to the wall. So I'd say if reasonable protection is able able be improvised by the environment then use HO7 but if at any point there's a chance that the wire could be mechanically compromised then terminate it back to or fully through with SWA, although if we had to use SWA the whole way through we'd probably would be been there for a whole say and probably after terminations getting bad IR readings. Also that house was crazy close to max current capacity, it had a B&B attached to it and having to have an EV charger meant that the owner had to reconsider certain circuits. We fixed up 2 radials and made it one whole loop.
Rubber v Armoured, doesn’t it depend on the upstream protection? If an RCD (or equivalent) is fitted then Rubber would be OK, as protected against future ground works that have not carried out a ground scan.
I used a shark joint several years ago for joining a damaged water pump cable as it was recommended by my wholesaler. Once I’d done the connection, I dropped it in the water slowly with my fingers crossed. 10 seconds later the rcd tripped. Not used them since then.
Would it be an option to swap ends for the HO7 cable so the core rotation matches the connector block, either that or a bit of forward thinking and trying to match the positions of the wires for the joint before cutting anything?
Would it be better to either use cold-shrink or a long non-shrink (long enough that it can't slide far enough to bring Cat.5 in contact with live screws)? I'd be concerned about melting the insulation of the 8 inner cores, especially at the end of what won't be a cheap cable. The two-cable exit would be tricky though, Woer do cold-shrink with sealing mastic for telecom use which might fit the bill.
We’ve got 3 big three phase boards running off a big generator due to a damaged cable during some groundwork’s. The Rubber is still good now. No problems at all 👍
As long as you run conduit, whatever. The existing charger systems are due to change again. Seems a bit of a waste, to spend all that money, and your new car is still outside in the rain and sun. You guys really are good at spending the money of others for things that "sound good".
To save wasting all the copper in the armoured cable, why not use the data connector covered in heatshrink and embedded in the Wisper joint? Think could save significant amounts on multiple installations as well as not wasting the resources used to make the armoured cable. You can still use additional mechanical protection as you did.
All types of cables have their applications and uses. I think SWA is better than H07-RNF cables for underground use. As it's name suggests it is "armoured" against spades, diggers, Rodents, etc..I always feel like tough rubber cables are an easy way out of doing a job properly, especially in gardens, a spade will still go throught it with risk of shock to the person chopping through it, At least with a SWA they have to cut through the Armour (CPC) before hitting live cables. With HO7-RNF they could hit a Live cable first. The least joints the better. Swa Underground, and then terminate above ground into the charger I would say. But thats just me lol.
5:30 you want to be careful when sharply bending the data cable. Although for this application the data is not going to need that much bandwidth, in applications where it is needed for full spec, stress such as work hardening in the copper can course signal reflections that can degrade the ability to operate at full speed. Edit: I said full cat6 spec, however it was cat5, an this also goes for any data cable like Coax.
It'll be fine. The bend radius is like an inch anyway. Signal reflections? It's not fiber, it's cat5e. I've seen cat5e cables tied in knots and they still work, and I've rewired enough datacenters and IDFs to have seen just about everything.
@@43ten43 You get them in copper to. Strain in the wire can cause the copper to work harden, creating dislocations/imperfections in the crystal structure. When an electrical signal comes across them, part is reflected back making noise similar to jitter. This does not stop the cable from working, and mostly would go unnoticed. It mainly becomes a problem when you try to get all the bandwidth you can out of a cable. because of the higher frequency needed to drive faster data speeds, the reflections can start interfering making it hard for the receiver to correctly interpret the data. You can actually see this by using a ETDR (Electrical Time-domain Reflectometer ).
@@joecitizen7382 indeed. here is the best way to think about it. Fiber optic is transparent to visible light. Copper is transparent to RF light. With bare fiberoptic, if exposed to light, You can see a lot of light getting bounced to the end of the cable, making a visibly brighter dot. The same is happening to an arial. As the RF light goes through the metal, some is getting bounced through the mettle to the end making a form of RF "brighter dot" that can be easily "seen" by the RF receiver. Now, if you take fiber optic and just shine a bright light through one end, you will see an intense bright dot at the other. This is a similar principle that applies to joining two points together directly with a cable. You are just blasting RF through one end and you get a crisp intense signal at the other end. In both fiber and copper, when you want to send high frequencies through it, hence more data, there is a point where the imperfections in the material used will cause reflections an attenuation. So instead of a nice crisp on or off, you get a faintly dimming and brightening dot. as the frequencies get higher, it can be hard to interpret between a fluctuation from interference, or actual intended dimming for a date a bit.
Another great video there guys, In short.. if mechanically protected and electrically protected then why would you not use easier to work with cable.. H07 all the way..
Hi, is there any kind of plug I can put on a 2.5mm 3 core swa cable? It will only be used as an "extension lead" from an outdoor socket to power my shed. I thought about just swapping the outdoor socket to a commando socket and using a commando plug but unsure if it will fit.
I'm puzzled by the thumbnail for the video. It shows a tick next to the rubber cable and a cross next to the SWA. Is this because of the rotation of the coloured cores not matching? I'm assuming so, since the video was quite informative and reassuring of the cable types jointed.
I am not keen on the cat5/6 cable touching the live terminals, if this was to ever wear through it could cause damage to IT infrastructure, also not sure how you are achieving electrical separation between mains and network cables after the joint as it looked like you didn't use a shielded network cable after the cable joint. This can give interference into the network cable through induced EMFs and corrupt data. Interesting video though!
I am certificated Computer Specialist for data cables. I never install power cables together with Cat3 (or better) if I can do it other way. Specially direct near 16 mm² power cable with 63 Ampere.
ELV cables CAN be run next to LV cables providing the insulation on it is to the standard of the higher voltage cable (i.e. 400volts). I think the manufacturer of the multi-cable knows this and has insulated the data cores with a sheath matching that of the conductors. The demonstration shows the installer adding some heat shrink near to the joint terminals to increase the mechanical protection of the data cable above and beyond what is necessary- just for their own overall good standards. I do take your point about interference into the data cable though, but I believe the data cable part of the multi-cable is screened. The multi-cable couldn't have a BASEC type approval if it didn't comply with the standards of both types of seperate cable. Does this sound satisfactory to anyone?
Howdy. Excellent installation skills. Personally I would recommend using non-isolated ferrules too. They will keep the strands together. Also. they will spread out the screw pressure over a larger area improving conductivity. And they also will reduce the thermal expansion effect. Different alloys have different expansion coefficients which may loosen the connections over time. And yes. The outermost layer of a cable is called the mantle. The armour is another thing. These are often mixed in mundaine talking. And finally. The armour in NOT the PE conductor in consumer voltage installations. Yet the armour MUST be equipotential bonded to the PE. In distribution voltages of 10 - 20 kV the armour is often used as a PE or PEN conductor. Wonderful piece of appliance. Usually this kind of cable switching is done using cast alloy boxes or cabinets. Connections are done using pipe type screw terminals. Finally the box is filled with resin. Good too but cumbersome compared to this appliance. In high regards.
I'm pretty sure that Ideal made that sheath stripper back in the early 80's, it had an ecentric blade that circles the sheath then rotates to strip lengthways.. I may still have one ! of course, it was blue and company issue at the time.
Guys! I am very impressed with the skills and the tools available there! I am from Brazil, actually living in Canada and the latest tech tools and those kits are times ahead from what we find there in Brazil.. I am quite interested in watching more videos in this Channel! just subscribed and liked the video
Wow Gaz and Gordon doing some electrical work 👍😂 or was it someone else in the close up shots ? .. I never will understand why you got someone else in to do the electrical work in your new unit When your both qualified electricians and perfectly capable of doing the the work you’re self’s . But who am I to say , i’am just a humble spark who’s opinion means nothing 🤣. That gell joint looks like a fantastic and easy way way to join the cables and I think SWA would have been a bit of a pig for that job . Fantastic video guy’s as always 👍👍👍👍❤️
here in italy I've never seen anyone selling armored cables. we use "rubber" cables for plugs and all of the things that you can move, and a more resistant plastic for outdoor and underground cables. Also we use conduits everywere in constructions so we use individual cables there. They all are made of fire retardand matherials.
gel joints are awesome - i'm only telecoms and data, they are great, and super fast to for eg, fix a copper phone leadin that mr citizen has run his spade through whilst his missus stands over him guiding him to dig out that new landscape feature. So much easier than messing around with rosins, and risking spilling the muck all over customers property, it was a sparky who first showed me the use for them, love em.
I think you guys made the correct decision. - routing that armored cable into the panel would take longer and/ or be a nightmare (time is money), it's also more expensive. I think those 2 factors helped to offset or completely paid for the joint. - armored is better underground... won't protect against a bulldozer but random guy with a shovel or one of those mini excavators maybe won't go trough the armor... And looking for failure+ destroying sidewalk/ road+ 2 joints is more expensive than laying armored in the first place. idk about this gel thing... is it as waterproof as resin? will it last as long?
Regulation 521.9. 1 permits the use of flexible cables for fixed wiring if they are of the heavy duty type or the risk of damage is low or protection against mechanical protection is provided.
I was thinking that, if a mains cable was run in a containment system within a building, would one install a mains cable and a cat5 cable withing that same containemens system ? especially if it were not a segretated containment system ? as there is no segregation with that cable sheath that I can see. Are there regulations covering this situation ?
I use rubber and duct grade cat 5e but would use swa if going into a duct maybe...its a 50/50 really. Have to weight up will the ground be domestic and will there be any digging?? Swa is a safe bet thou... have to think about the risks....
There are 200 comments here so someone may have already mentioned it. There is only a short run from the joint to the charger. Why cut the data cable short only to have to put a data connector on. It could have been left the full length to the charger. The armoured appears to have been long enough to reach the charger.
@1:20 I guess the answer to should we be using the rubber cable instead of the armored cable is based on these two questions (1) Is rubber cable code compliant? and (2) Is it cheaper? If the answer to both is yes, then Yes. :)
@@efixx what is the reasoning behind that? The only tangible argument for it I can think of is emc. Here in Norway the requirement for armored cables in (low voltage - sub 1KV) is when there is a risk of mechanical "influence" I.e buried in the ground, or at risk of abrasion or impacts.
Indeed strange. Doesn't the entertainment industry just use the flex cables when transporting energy? And in plain sight, haha. So flex from the junction box to the charger sounds a smart thing to do. Ps. Why CATx cable? Isn't the logic and EV connector build in, in the same box, or is it to manage the max current per car if more cars are charging?
Great vid once again guys. Would you know if there are specific measurements for outer sheathing to be removed from the cable (to expose the wire) in relation to the size of SWA gland (20s, 20, 25 ect ect). I see in the vid he uses a square set to a certain distance. For 20-25mm glands ive always used the width of some tape plus half a thumb but often wonder if there are specific measurements that can be used for an optimum fit; this is especially the case with CW waterproof glands where its all too easy to remove too much of the sheathing and end up with the wire showing outside the gland and its waterproof bung, which defeats the point of a waterproof gland. Maybe you could do a vid on it !! Cheers
isn't flexible cable super expensive compared to normal electric cables with thick core. I remember when I was buying car sub wires and 2 AWG copper wire was like £10-15 per meter.
Do you guys ever use mine spec trailing cables in the UK? Alot more flexible than SWA, it has a very thick rubber coating with woven kevlar fibers inbuilt, 3x earths and a small pilot cable in the very centre of the cable which cuts power if earth continuity is lost, pilot continuity is lost or in the case of a pilot core to earth short circuit (pilot healthy signal goes through a diode). Plus each phase has a semicon outer which trips out on a phase/earth fault if it gets damaged. I've literally seen it get run over by trucks/50 tonne boggers, and get skulldragged over all sorts of bullshit and stay working far exceeding what SWA cable could ever take whilst IMO being way safer. I've seen it take all sorts of beating and keep going, but never seen it fail in a unsafe way, it always has tripped out power whenever damaged
I can't say, addition heat-shrink layer or not, I like a data cable being in touch with mains voltage terminals. It would be nice to have a much more robust separator. I guess the connector was never designed with being shared with data in the first place, but it doesn't strike me as ideal. For that matter, I'm not sure I much like the idea of cat-5 embedded in a mains cable in the first place.
With you on that one mate. Seems like you would have to say low likelihood but high consequence on the old risk assessment on that one, I love cat6 swa, that stuff is bomb proof, and probably cheaper to buy 5 core swa and separate cat6 swa then a highly specialised wire.
Comment on the appliance side with the rubber and network cable. Two points; laying the cable in the way it is concerns me as there will be potential for water ingress as two round cross section cables will not fit neatly. Secondly by crushing the network cable CAT5/CAT5E/CAT6 will compromise the integrity of the four twisted pair differential signals within the network cable. This latter point is not ideal, and it would have been better to provide an additional output that can be filled with silicon grommet if no network cable was used.
I believe this solution was the best when you have to consider the acute bend. Tempting though it is to run the rubber cable throughout, when all considered- rodents- you run in the SWA cable.
I really like that install and all the protection. Done in a work shop that joint is doable, think a poured joint would be easier if you was outside working in a hole though. The connector inside that joint is far too big. Excellent work though, I do like it.
Hi at 9.49 minutes & before this gets connected upstream. Is there any way to test the cable connections, particularly the ethernet connections. Cheers
I would definitely avoid any underground joint between my electrical panel and my EV Charger (same applies for the network joint), because it introduces extra failure points (not to mention extra labor and cost).
No, as I recall, BS7909 which is the guidance for temp electrical systems pertaining to the outdoor events industry, specifies the use of H07 particularly because of it's oil resistance when used around generators etc.
I'm not in the business but I know within the regs you have to run data away from power, how does it all work with regards to these cables? Seems like it shouldn't be a thing.
I believe the manufacturers have argued for third party approval that the screening on the cat5 acts as "separation" aswell as probably by the looks of it thicker than normal jacket of insulation. However As there is no recognised British Standard for these types of cables it leaves installers in a very difficult situation. When installing a cable that is not manufactured to a national or international standard. BS7671 states that where equipment is not covered by a British or Harmonised Standard the responsibility to ensure an adequate degree of safety rests with the installer and/or specifier. So the cable uses third party accreditation to get around this.
@@adamt3800 I understand that. So are we saying that the separation is the Important thing? Obviously there's risk is Conductors touch in terms of both human touch and electronic devices not liking the voltage but what about the interference? Has anyone done a speed test or anything on these?
The Cat 5 cable is built up of twisted pairs which deals with most of the interference. Speed isn’t really as issue as we are connecting an EV charger which doesn’t transmit huge amounts of data.
@@efixx I was thinking speed could be useful if this sort of cable was used in other applications. Running to an outbuilding being used as an office for example. If speeds can be maintained well enough then this opens up very clean and easy installs I would have thought. As you say the twisted pairs deal with a lot of that interference so it begs the question as to why there is a reg about it? Is the reg for separation purely in regards to Conductors touching?
@@badbradmx couple of companies making cat 7 plus power which is great stuff, I've got some 3x1.5mm² + cat 6 for concert lighting but I haven't made a lot of it yet.
Your 16mm conductors equals our 6 AWG conductors in the US. If we at doing an EV Charger hookup it is considered a Continuous Load. In the US, any load that can be expected to last 3 hours or longer is Rated as a Continuous Load. When we have a Continuous we must derate both the Circuit Breaker and the Cable by a factor of .80. With a 6 AWG of this type we could only pull a maximum load of 40 Amps maximum per conductor. Also, we can only use the 1/2" thru 1" Flexible conduit in the ground, anything larger does not meet the crush requirements for this installation and are not listed to be direct buried nor encased in concrete. Knowing how strict the Electrical Code are in Great Britain, I am really surprised that they allow this conduit for the same reason that you cannot in the US which is the crushing issue.
7:56 don't forget to check both ends of the cable to see which has the best layout to go into the terminals.
My thoughts exactly. Checking rotation so the phases are in line would be crucial to make this joint work.
Hmm, never would have thought of that, good point.👍
I think you might as well use a separate duct grade cat5e cable rather than faffing around with jointing to the one in your EV ultra armoured. If you're running in ducting anyway, why bother with adding the armoured joint when you could just use the rubber cable for the full run? Don't want to sound negative though, thank you for the interesting videos and showing us new ideas and products!
I agree with that !
I haven't used much rubber cable, but I suppose, the rubber cable could be damaged by rodents easier (if they get into the ducting) and perhaps the rubber insulation could deteriorate quicker?
More expensive
That's what they asked [the viewers] about at the beginning of the video.
@@karljones4321 the rubber H07RN-F cable is not designed for fixed wiring applications and it's current carrying capacity and cable characteristics (volt drop etc) don't align with the equivalent size SWA cable, and a plastic duct offers no mechanical protection so the cable is vulnerable to mechanical damage unless the trench is backfilled with sufficient concrete
Federal Republic of Germany - we use H07RN-F outside for heavy uses, e.g. construction site areas, coal mining areas, music scene, camping place areas, aso., where we change the cable way normally often. Same for EV-things, solar parks, etc. - often inside plastic pipe outside or inside the soil if it hard wired same you demonstration it.
Of course, RCD 30mA (or less) after CU it is every time a good idea for outside cables - with or without CEE-sockets between.
I would drill a exit hole lower on the pillar and you can make a neat bend. Joints are a extra point of failure. But everyone has their prefrences. Love the videos you guys do.
Australian here - we use Clipsal 56-series style connector (like your commando connectors) above ground, or immediately below ground (so long as drainage is there) so there's a breakaway connector if the pedistal gets knocked-over. This means we can safely isolate and repair without the need of messing with gel connectors. It does mean you end up with a different pedistal design.
Good way to do it. Below ground in the UK would mean moisture would degrade the 'commando' connector. We are a 'wet' country.
@@johnburns4017 and you can tell that the UK is a wet country as soon as they showed the inside of the box near the beginning of the video, as the ducting box had a puddle of water at the bottom of it.
I'm curious how well they hold up in exceptionally wet conditions where those ducting boxes end up with an extreme amount of water in them.
In the case the pedestal gets damaged and requires to be replaced, I imagine replacing the rubberised cable from the junction box is easier than having to pull the whole length of cable through again.
@@CoolSteve08
A new waterproof spice.
@@johnburns4017 You do know you can go to IP69 with IEC60309/Commando connectors? If they "degrade" then they should not be rated IP69 in the first place and the joint they used was only IP68 rated.
Rubber cables are the way forward. SWAs/AWAS are pretty much impossible to terminate in some of the larger EV installs. Some manufacturers are now beginning to class their HO7RN as duct grade.
the rubber H07RN-F cable is not designed for fixed wiring applications and it's current carrying capacity and cable characteristics (volt drop etc) don't align with the equivalent size SWA cable, and a plastic duct offers no mechanical protection so the cable is vulnerable to mechanical damage unless the trench is backfilled with sufficient concrete
@@adventuremaxdo you have a source for that? You posted that a few times here, but no source. Volt drop? Really? Why would a stranded cable drop more voltage, we can easily measure their resistance/impedance for a let"s say 1 m cable
@@silviuguseila2552 my source is BS7671 and the HO7RN cable is not covered by that standard
@@adventuremax I understand the HO7RN is not covered by BS7671, so what is the source about the voltage drop, what other characteristics do not align with the equivalent size SWA cable (you said etc so there are some more)? As for the mechanical damage, as hundreds of comments here attest, this is the preferred cable in a lot of very hostile environments and seems to be very tough. Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to get the whole picture here
@@adventuremax EN 50565-2 says HO7RN is suitable for fixed installations as well, according to a seller documentation: "Heavy duty, rubber sheathed cable for use with medium mechanical stress in dry, damp, wet rooms, in agricultural premises and outdoors. Suitable for equipment in commercial operations, e.g. heating plates, hand lamps, electric tools such as drills or circular saws. For fixed installation on plaster as well as in temporary constructions. When installed in pipes or similar enclosed systems, the use of the cable is permitted up to and including 1000 V AC voltage or up to 750 V DC voltage against earth."
I think the inability / difficulty with getting armoured cable to where it's actually needed is a failure of design by the manufacturer of the EV charger.
How about making a charger, and stand that can actually accept an swa!
Hmm. . . seems like there's a gap in the market here
Not sure if I should laugh or if I should cry..
I absolutely agree, get an other stand!
The inability of the British electrician providing an infrastructure and run a normal cable inside it is also a big failure.. how about getting into the 21st century and stop doing things in the most rudimentary way?
@filipe s spill the beans and tell us what we’re doing wrong?
@@supersparks9466 i just said it above 🤷🏻♂️ why do you guys use swa as a one for all solution when there’s so many suitable options that can be run inside a tube..? Laziness to create a bit of infrastructure and a couple man holes? 🤷🏻♂️ this immagrunt is only complaining about what he always complained about in this country electric industry.. so advanced faffing around with testing little wires but so primitive in the execution..
Big downside to using H07 in ducts is mice and rats will have a good chew on it, had it happen way too often.. it's those cheap posts, needs to be designed with a JB enclosure where you could terminate an armoured then come off with something more sensible for the ev charger terminals
Rats and mice in Skipton! - wise words on the rodents!
@@efixx Plenty of field mice oop norf ... ive used the smaller wiska box with mixed results, not sure about the lager one .. prefer to crimp larger cables in joints
It's not the rats and mice you need to worry about in Skipton ... It's the wolves, bears and beavers! It's rough up North! 🤣🤣🤣
@@boblewis5558 you should pick better women
@@jenton93 sorry! Didn't realise it was a dating site!
The standard in Norway is now pretty much to use TEC-FLEX RV-K 0,6/1,0KV. Its a UV resistant double layer pvc cable with XLPE insulation. Super flexable especially in warm weather and can actually be buried straight down into the ground with no further protection, still following our code. However i allways use PEM plastic water lines to protect it.
If it's protected in a duct rather than direct burial I'd say much better to run the tough rubber throughout, rather than introduce a complex joint as another potential point of failure.
Also run external grade Cat 5 in one run, again avoiding a joint and avoiding exposing that non externally rated section between the gel joint and the Cat5 joint.
Also bringing out the Cat5 beside the flex can compromise the adhesive lining seal of the shrink tube which could provide a channel that will actually promote wicking of water into the connector circumventing the gel.
Good to use rubber cables and certainly more appropriate in many situations. As for the gel seal joint they are all well and good but can break down. Having used gel joints in the telco industry for years they are certainly easy but not totally reliable. It was always a no no to have telephone cable in the same duct as power for reasons of noise and inductance and perhaps more importantly contact which could be fatel if not expecting high votages on the cat5 where i wouldn't want to see any more than 50V. Once again great video and highly informative.
Yes! The rubberized cable is amazing, with relevant protection both physical and electrical.
Why design an unarmoured cable as alternative to an armoured one, only to require the 'relevant protection' required?
@@bitTorrenter easier to work with
Coudn you have stripped off the sheath & armouring to make it more flexible & run it in flexicon to the chargepoint?
We did consider this but the XLPE class 2 conductors only have 7 strands so not very flexible.
Ah, just run the data on a separate cable!
I work in the film industry and we use H07RN-F all the time it's awesome
Not an electrician myself, but an IT engineer, and we run a lot of big rubber cables in data centers, I personally like them as they drape very neatly on shelves, and can be ran under raised floors as well. If memory serves they have quite high current ratings as well compared to their cross section, which of course is advantageous. Good on you guys for doing the data cable properly, as an IT guy I hate it when people treat data cabling as fancy telegraph wiring. 😂 However, I’m not so sure about the signal integrity of that cable, commonly we avoid running them parallel with high current power cabling (low signal cabling should preferably only cross power cabling at right angles), and that cable doesn’t even seem to be shielded, and if so, it should be terminated with shielded connectors and joined with shielded joining blocks. If you have access to a data certification tester, I’d be very interested in seeing if it’ll pass CAT5 and CAT6 certification.
As an ex CCTV and networking engineer, I really don't like this. That 'ip65 cat5 join' can and will fail. I've had countless issues with them. You'd be better running the data cable separately in a dedicated duct grade cable, or making the join above ground level.
Sub joints are pretty good IF installed correctly.
It is better not to have them underground however and if ducted or otherwise protected rubber cable is cheaper and much easier to work with
@@jonathantatler Until it gets old enough to need fixed…
it was IP68 i think you'll find
So when you joined the CAT5 cable, it was actually CAT5a with a screen around it, you used non screened connectors so the final length of it had an incorrectly grounded screen.
Unless you also did not use a screened connector at the indoors end, in which case the entire run was not screened correctly.
Given they don't use the armour as any kind of "earth", I wonder if they wouldn't use screened cable here for fear of introducing another earth path.
@@CoolSteve08 in those cases (ie running screened cables where the is a significant chance of different earth potentials) you only connect the screen to one of the crimp terminals, and not to the other - so the cable is screened, but not connected at one of the crimp ends to avoid creating an earth loop.
Your terminology is wrong. Firstly, no such thing as CAT5a. It's CAT5e with the 'e' meaning 'enhanced'. CAT5 is an obsolete standard and is replaced by CAT5e. CAT5e can come in both shielded and unshielded variants and there are different forms of shielding too e.g. S/FTP, F/UTP and others, all covered by the general term of STP. The CAT5e shown in the EV Ultra cable here appears to be of the F/UTP variety meaning it has an overall foil shield around the pairs which are not individually shielded themselves.
My understanding is that the current EV chargers don't require shielded CAT5e, many of them simply using it as a means of connecting the current transformers so it's not even digital data being carried. The fact that they have not used the shield in this example is therefore not critical.
Used H07 cable to replace and extend the power cable on my new ovens, both had 16a demand so used the 4mm cable with the blue industrial sockets. Fed from CU in 6mm T&E. Used enough cable to allow the ovens to be pulled from the housing and sit on a work bench if needed. Fortunately had enough space at the back of the ovens / housing to do this.
In the video the question is put to us whether or not to use HO7 cable for the full run or just stick to the method used in the video. There like in most cases arguments for and against this, and I’m not going to preach my own agenda here, I wanted to merely point out that HO7 cable is rated as flexible cable and as such has is own usage guides in BS7671. I work in the water industry and most pumps come from the manufacturer with a form of this cable e.g. Flygt,s SUBCAB cable, and in most cases this can’t be connected to the motor drive directly, usually due to distances. So we would always use an armoured cable as the extension with a suitable JB connection. In conclusion I believe what was done in the video is quite correct, however I would tend to use a separate data cable as joists can cause issues and it may make the supply cable a little cheaper to install.
Whether .
Great example of a nice solution. Only extra step I would take would be using shielded RJ45 plugs in the join to keep the screen continuous to the charger. 👍🏻
Ditto… the cable was shielded and the RJ45 plugs used were only to CAT5 standard so they need to offer the metal continuity screening capability, as does the IP68 connector… or just run a fresh pair of separate CAT6/7 exterior grade cables, being aware that not all shielded RJ45 plugs can take the heavier grade of exterior cable. I’ve said to run a pair of CAT6/7 cables in anticipation of a future failure; given the low cable cost, it makes sense early on to plan ahead and consider the inevitable failure. Depending on weather/climate conditions in the duct/pillar you may only get a few years before failures appear. How many EV charge points around are offline due to failures? In most cases it’s the data link that has failed, not the supply cable.
In London, we see rodent issues more than most. I’d consider the longevity of H07 before specifying it over distance through duct.
wise words
Recently worked in a university research/engineering complex and the entire installation was wired in HO7 cable. Only issue i could see was not all terminations were made using ferrules.
Depends on the terminal the fine stranded is joined to. Some spring loaded connectors from the likes of PhoenixContact etc. or properly sized cage clamps actually recommend against using ferrules. So not every missing ferrule is a violation.
As this gel joint has screw terminals, would I be right in saying they must always be accessible for maintenance as I thought screw terminals are not classed as a non maintainable
Mechanical joint?
It is accessible! It’s right there under the charge point!🤷🏼♂️
I agree with you Mr Williams. I still feel it is a worthy point to make as I am sure there may be a modicum of newbies that might assume it could be buried like the old resin torpedos with crimped connections.
@@dashgordon4525 Even if it shouldn't it will be !
Why did you strip 20mm of the outer covering off the armour, before covering it with the short length of heat shrink?
At a guess, this was to pick up the earth connection with the spring loaded earth band, as you would do in a standard torpedo joint and then realised it wasn't required.
@@jollyfinequality9865 I expect you are right. I would have thought they would have edited that bit out and gone straight to the heat shrink collapsing onto the cable 😀
@@jollyfinequality9865 I'm also in two minds about the outer layer of heat shrink trapping the data cable to the power cable. Because it extends beyond the gel into the gland, if the gland itself is not totally waterproof, then there could be a risk of water tracking under the heat shrink in the gaps between the cables. Hopefully that last inch between the heat shrink and the terminals will be sufficient gel to do the job. Perhaps use two short sections of heat shrink, with a decent gap, to allow the gel to get in and do its job.
I assumed it was force of habit and whoever did it forgot they weren't putting a gland on
To properly glue down the armour strands. If they are left ending with the outer cable insulation, they are not held in place and butt the heat shrink. That way they could poke through the heat shrink when the cable is handled. When pressed flat between inner insulation and heat shrink it is much less likely for them to do that, they'd just slide between the two.
Most interesting to see these lovely quality IP68 jointing systems and how they should be handled.
For years we've been using flexible cables for garden and industrial installations and just running duct work after it was specified by one clients designer. The duct work itself though always had to be guarded to prevent rodent entry. Other than that you already have the relevant electrical and mechanical protection provided it's installed at the correct depths with the lay out as installed listed at the intake of the site.
Also if you're using a duct system it's easier to run a Cat5/6 to each point if the EV points are far from a wifi signal and have a hard wired option for updates. Significant saving to be made doing it that way.
we use a rubber subcab cable four pump installs. the best cable by far. lovely to work with
Just my personal opinion, I wouldn’t’ve put heatshrink around the power and cat5 9:45. I’m concerned it could block the gel and be a path for water to track up.
Also, I’ve found that the thin insulation on the individual wires in a cat5 cable is surprisingly easy to melt together with a heat gun if you’re not careful.
You are right about the cat 5 cable should be run separately and one rubber cable run completely without joining
@@noelburke6224 Yeah, the insulation on the cat5 is easy to melt. As far as moisture ingress goes, the heatshrink they used was adhesive filled, so it shouldn't cause a problem with moisture ingress.
I think this is a great solution from what I've seen from the poured joints they're permanent this is something that could be undone and repaired, replaced without having to snip off some shortening the cable that you probably don't have enough of.
I like a wiska product, but that is never going to last like a resin joint… it’ll be living under water most of the winter 😂
I work In dewatering we use HO7 RNF for all the drop cables from control panels to the motors with a submersible joints to extend the motor tail. Personally think SWA is used when people don’t want to design a install and just default SWA for outside. You very rarely see it in Europe come to think of it I never have……
Does the 16mm IP68 joint need to remain accessible or is it maintenance free?
Is twin wall ducting classed as having “equivalent mechanical protection”? The reg states “Except where installed in a conduit or duct which provides equivalent protection against mechanical
damage, a cable buried in the ground shall incorporate an earthed armour or metal sheath or both, suitable for use as a protective conductor.” How do we determine “equivalent”?
A flexible cable will do fine. Charging columns in a parking area are prone to be hit by cars/trucks and sooner or later will need repair. Maybe future models will slip just over the cable coming out of the base making it easier to install. First the cable, next the box column and not first the column and then the cable.
I didn't see any grease in the cat cable. Is the cat cable manufactured for underground use outside of the main sheath of the composite cable?
As always a very high standard of work. However one question for you, as you guys are often the championing the use of tightens torques on connections which I think is particularly relevant on connections that are not easily checked in planned maintenance schedules. Like this one. You also mentioned relaxation and the need of a retightening which is a very good point. Many other types of mechanical fixture connection procedures often will detail time scales to re-torquing of mechanical connectors to account for creep as a property of materials with temperature bands detailed, etc. We used to have to do daily checks of our torque wrenches with a norbar tester. A wee saying our professor in Power Engineering used to say “I have never known an Electron to fail, electrical failures are always mechanical in nature” not that he was prone to any form of bias. This came to mind after just looking into 1/4 inch torque wrenches of 1/4 inch hex grub screws that specified 39nm when all the 1/4 inch drive torque wrenches I could easily find had a limit of 25nm. Needed a visit to Amazon for a drive adapter. This is with bearing in mind that we all have calibrated arms and wrists for matching desired torques. 😂
Ace..dear
Surely the need for that joint is the mistake. Why not use the HO7 cable throughout? (And Cat 5/6/7 as specified.)
I hate screw joints, and I wouldn't have put the Cat5 cable in the joining box, since when you put two cables through one hole the water will get in through where the cables touch each other
Already had to do exactly what you have just shown because there is no way to gland an armoured cable into the EV charge point I was supplied by the client
Can you link the relevant video for re exporting the CPC connection, please ? I’m searching it on YT and can’t find it. Thanks guys!
Careful when bending the CAT5 cable, they aren't designed to be bent as much as it is in the video. Shouldn't impact it too much but will means it may have lost some performance as it will have been crushed at bit
On that note I had some I think cheap rescued cable that I was working with insisted on kinking itself. Tested OK but I don't have a certifier. With that said some cable is better to bending than others but it's something to be aware of.
*Well tested OK except for the one I put in a ceiling that I have both ends terminated wrong... shocks I did 4 ends and wouldn't you know it the two that ended up in the ceiling we're wrong It just barely worked at 100mb for the event.
Work with H07 and SWA every day. H07 is the cable you want for the big cable pulls. It’s mostly used for motors and pumps.
In my IWP we fitted an EV charger and only used HO7, only because we could fit it through a steel drain right beside the back door then feed it through to the attic and down to the CU, I myself didn't make the terminations I just assisted in keeping the wire straight when feeding it through and fitting it to the wall. So I'd say if reasonable protection is able able be improvised by the environment then use HO7 but if at any point there's a chance that the wire could be mechanically compromised then terminate it back to or fully through with SWA, although if we had to use SWA the whole way through we'd probably would be been there for a whole say and probably after terminations getting bad IR readings. Also that house was crazy close to max current capacity, it had a B&B attached to it and having to have an EV charger meant that the owner had to reconsider certain circuits. We fixed up 2 radials and made it one whole loop.
Rubber v Armoured, doesn’t it depend on the upstream protection? If an RCD (or equivalent) is fitted then Rubber would be OK, as protected against future ground works that have not carried out a ground scan.
Theres no requirement for an RCD to protect from groundworks like in this installation. Buried in a plaster wall would be a different situation tho.
Iagree belts and braces.
I used a shark joint several years ago for joining a damaged water pump cable as it was recommended by my wholesaler. Once I’d done the connection, I dropped it in the water slowly with my fingers crossed. 10 seconds later the rcd tripped. Not used them since then.
Would it be an option to swap ends for the HO7 cable so the core rotation matches the connector block, either that or a bit of forward thinking and trying to match the positions of the wires for the joint before cutting anything?
Would it be better to either use cold-shrink or a long non-shrink (long enough that it can't slide far enough to bring Cat.5 in contact with live screws)? I'd be concerned about melting the insulation of the 8 inner cores, especially at the end of what won't be a cheap cable. The two-cable exit would be tricky though, Woer do cold-shrink with sealing mastic for telecom use which might fit the bill.
I work as an project engineer across Europe and we only use N2XH and H07Z for permeant installations.
Great to see the SACS tool being used. Shame not used on longitudinal cut. It does require practice and skill to fully enjoy its benefits.
We’ve got 3 big three phase boards running off a big generator due to a damaged cable during some groundwork’s. The Rubber is still good now. No problems at all 👍
As long as you run conduit, whatever. The existing charger systems are due to change again.
Seems a bit of a waste, to spend all that money, and your new car is still outside in the rain and sun.
You guys really are good at spending the money of others for things that "sound good".
Wow you ran low-voltage cable in the same conduit? How is that even allowed there?
Buncha hacks.
It’s allowed if the voltage ratings are the same for each cable > 500VAC
To save wasting all the copper in the armoured cable, why not use the data connector covered in heatshrink and embedded in the Wisper joint? Think could save significant amounts on multiple installations as well as not wasting the resources used to make the armoured cable. You can still use additional mechanical protection as you did.
All types of cables have their applications and uses. I think SWA is better than H07-RNF cables for underground use. As it's name suggests it is "armoured" against spades, diggers, Rodents, etc..I always feel like tough rubber cables are an easy way out of doing a job properly, especially in gardens, a spade will still go throught it with risk of shock to the person chopping through it, At least with a SWA they have to cut through the Armour (CPC) before hitting live cables. With HO7-RNF they could hit a Live cable first. The least joints the better. Swa Underground, and then terminate above ground into the charger I would say. But thats just me lol.
5:30 you want to be careful when sharply bending the data cable. Although for this application the data is not going to need that much bandwidth, in applications where it is needed for full spec, stress such as work hardening in the copper can course signal reflections that can degrade the ability to operate at full speed.
Edit: I said full cat6 spec, however it was cat5, an this also goes for any data cable like Coax.
It'll be fine. The bend radius is like an inch anyway. Signal reflections? It's not fiber, it's cat5e. I've seen cat5e cables tied in knots and they still work, and I've rewired enough datacenters and IDFs to have seen just about everything.
@@43ten43 You get them in copper to. Strain in the wire can cause the copper to work harden, creating dislocations/imperfections in the crystal structure. When an electrical signal comes across them, part is reflected back making noise similar to jitter.
This does not stop the cable from working, and mostly would go unnoticed. It mainly becomes a problem when you try to get all the bandwidth you can out of a cable. because of the higher frequency needed to drive faster data speeds, the reflections can start interfering making it hard for the receiver to correctly interpret the data.
You can actually see this by using a ETDR (Electrical Time-domain Reflectometer ).
Let's just bend it back to get it outa da way... Electrician vs Engineer... NFI
@@joecitizen7382 indeed. here is the best way to think about it. Fiber optic is transparent to visible light. Copper is transparent to RF light.
With bare fiberoptic, if exposed to light, You can see a lot of light getting bounced to the end of the cable, making a visibly brighter dot.
The same is happening to an arial. As the RF light goes through the metal, some is getting bounced through the mettle to the end making a form of RF "brighter dot" that can be easily "seen" by the RF receiver.
Now, if you take fiber optic and just shine a bright light through one end, you will see an intense bright dot at the other.
This is a similar principle that applies to joining two points together directly with a cable. You are just blasting RF through one end and you get a crisp intense signal at the other end.
In both fiber and copper, when you want to send high frequencies through it, hence more data, there is a point where the imperfections in the material used will cause reflections an attenuation.
So instead of a nice crisp on or off, you get a faintly dimming and brightening dot. as the frequencies get higher, it can be hard to interpret between a fluctuation from interference, or actual intended dimming for a date a bit.
Hello.. Are they classed as maintenance free connections with screws to clamp the cables? I would prefer the standard underground joint kit. Thanks
Another great video there guys, In short.. if mechanically protected and electrically protected then why would you not use easier to work with cable.. H07 all the way..
Do the joints come in different sizes?
really excellent gel joints… great video
Hi, is there any kind of plug I can put on a 2.5mm 3 core swa cable? It will only be used as an "extension lead" from an outdoor socket to power my shed. I thought about just swapping the outdoor socket to a commando socket and using a commando plug but unsure if it will fit.
I'm puzzled by the thumbnail for the video. It shows a tick next to the rubber cable and a cross next to the SWA.
Is this because of the rotation of the coloured cores not matching? I'm assuming so, since the video was quite informative and reassuring of the cable types jointed.
3 Mins 14 secs in is that a standard shroud or a particular one used to cover the armouring?
I am not keen on the cat5/6 cable touching the live terminals, if this was to ever wear through it could cause damage to IT infrastructure, also not sure how you are achieving electrical separation between mains and network cables after the joint as it looked like you didn't use a shielded network cable after the cable joint. This can give interference into the network cable through induced EMFs and corrupt data. Interesting video though!
I am certificated Computer Specialist for data cables. I never install power cables together with Cat3 (or better) if I can do it other way. Specially direct near 16 mm² power cable with 63 Ampere.
ELV cables CAN be run next to LV cables providing the insulation on it is to the standard of the higher voltage cable (i.e. 400volts). I think the manufacturer of the multi-cable knows this and has insulated the data cores with a sheath matching that of the conductors. The demonstration shows the installer adding some heat shrink near to the joint terminals to increase the mechanical protection of the data cable above and beyond what is necessary- just for their own overall good standards. I do take your point about interference into the data cable though, but I believe the data cable part of the multi-cable is screened.
The multi-cable couldn't have a BASEC type approval if it didn't comply with the standards of both types of seperate cable.
Does this sound satisfactory to anyone?
Are these cables listed in the 18th edition. It worries me using cables that aren’t listed.
Howdy. Excellent installation skills.
Personally I would recommend using non-isolated ferrules too. They will keep the strands together. Also. they will spread out the screw pressure over a larger area improving conductivity. And they also will reduce the thermal expansion effect. Different alloys have different expansion coefficients which may loosen the connections over time.
And yes. The outermost layer of a cable is called the mantle. The armour is another thing. These are often mixed in mundaine talking. And finally. The armour in NOT the PE conductor in consumer voltage installations. Yet the armour MUST be equipotential bonded to the PE. In distribution voltages of 10 - 20 kV the armour is often used as a PE or PEN conductor.
Wonderful piece of appliance. Usually this kind of cable switching is done using cast alloy boxes or cabinets. Connections are done using pipe type screw terminals. Finally the box is filled with resin. Good too but cumbersome compared to this appliance.
In high regards.
I'm pretty sure that Ideal made that sheath stripper back in the early 80's, it had an ecentric blade that circles the sheath then rotates to strip lengthways.. I may still have one ! of course, it was blue and company issue at the time.
BT had a similar one.
Knipex makes one slightly more advanced
Shouldn't there be a local PE rod for that charger instead of extending it from the supply point?
Certainly easier and less messy - only time will tell if it remains as waterproof as a fully potted swa join.
Guys! I am very impressed with the skills and the tools available there!
I am from Brazil, actually living in Canada and the latest tech tools and those kits are times ahead from what we find there in Brazil..
I am quite interested in watching more videos in this Channel! just subscribed and liked the video
German Knipex and Wiha make excellent tools.
Wow Gaz and Gordon doing some electrical work 👍😂 or was it someone else in the close up shots ? .. I never will understand why you got someone else in to do the electrical work in your new unit
When your both qualified electricians and perfectly capable of doing the the work you’re self’s . But who am I to say , i’am just a humble spark who’s opinion means nothing 🤣. That gell joint looks like a fantastic and easy way way to join the cables and I think SWA would have been a bit of a pig for that job .
Fantastic video guy’s as always 👍👍👍👍❤️
here in italy I've never seen anyone selling armored cables. we use "rubber" cables for plugs and all of the things that you can move, and a more resistant plastic for outdoor and underground cables. Also we use conduits everywere in constructions so we use individual cables there. They all are made of fire retardand matherials.
gel joints are awesome - i'm only telecoms and data, they are great, and super fast to for eg, fix a copper phone leadin that mr citizen has run his spade through whilst his missus stands over him guiding him to dig out that new landscape feature. So much easier than messing around with rosins, and risking spilling the muck all over customers property, it was a sparky who first showed me the use for them, love em.
I think you guys made the correct decision.
- routing that armored cable into the panel would take longer and/ or be a nightmare (time is money), it's also more expensive. I think those 2 factors helped to offset or completely paid for the joint.
- armored is better underground... won't protect against a bulldozer but random guy with a shovel or one of those mini excavators maybe won't go trough the armor... And looking for failure+ destroying sidewalk/ road+ 2 joints is more expensive than laying armored in the first place.
idk about this gel thing... is it as waterproof as resin? will it last as long?
Regulation 521.9. 1 permits the use of flexible cables for fixed wiring if they are of the heavy duty type or the risk of damage is low or protection against mechanical protection is provided.
I was thinking that, if a mains cable was run in a containment system within a building, would one install a mains cable and a cat5 cable withing that same containemens system ? especially if it were not a segretated containment system ? as there is no segregation with that cable sheath that I can see.
Are there regulations covering this situation ?
a reference to VICTOR KIAM all the way across the pond? That's a deep reference ! :)
I use rubber and duct grade cat 5e but would use swa if going into a duct maybe...its a 50/50 really.
Have to weight up will the ground be domestic and will there be any digging??
Swa is a safe bet thou... have to think about the risks....
There are 200 comments here so someone may have already mentioned it.
There is only a short run from the joint to the charger. Why cut the data cable short only to have to put a data connector on. It could have been left the full length to the charger. The armoured appears to have been long enough to reach the charger.
@1:20 I guess the answer to should we be using the rubber cable instead of the armored cable is based on these two questions (1) Is rubber cable code compliant? and (2) Is it cheaper? If the answer to both is yes, then Yes. :)
I'm not familiar with UK electrical code, but why in the world would one use an armored cable when you're running it through pipe ducting?
It’s pretty much standard practice in all UK installs.
@@efixx what is the reasoning behind that?
The only tangible argument for it I can think of is emc.
Here in Norway the requirement for armored cables in (low voltage - sub 1KV) is when there is a risk of mechanical "influence" I.e buried in the ground, or at risk of abrasion or impacts.
Indeed strange. Doesn't the entertainment industry just use the flex cables when transporting energy? And in plain sight, haha.
So flex from the junction box to the charger sounds a smart thing to do.
Ps. Why CATx cable? Isn't the logic and EV connector build in, in the same box, or is it to manage the max current per car if more cars are charging?
@@gubbernl Yes, the data cable is usually used for the CT clamps.
Did the swa armour get earthed at the incoming supply end?
Great vid once again guys. Would you know if there are specific measurements for outer sheathing to be removed from the cable (to expose the wire) in relation to the size of SWA gland (20s, 20, 25 ect ect). I see in the vid he uses a square set to a certain distance. For 20-25mm glands ive always used the width of some tape plus half a thumb but often wonder if there are specific measurements that can be used for an optimum fit; this is especially the case with CW waterproof glands where its all too easy to remove too much of the sheathing and end up with the wire showing outside the gland and its waterproof bung, which defeats the point of a waterproof gland. Maybe you could do a vid on it !! Cheers
isn't flexible cable super expensive compared to normal electric cables with thick core. I remember when I was buying car sub wires and 2 AWG copper wire was like £10-15 per meter.
Is SWA not safer than this rubber cable? As if the cable is damaged swa provides protection if struck by tools
Do you guys ever use mine spec trailing cables in the UK? Alot more flexible than SWA, it has a very thick rubber coating with woven kevlar fibers inbuilt, 3x earths and a small pilot cable in the very centre of the cable which cuts power if earth continuity is lost, pilot continuity is lost or in the case of a pilot core to earth short circuit (pilot healthy signal goes through a diode). Plus each phase has a semicon outer which trips out on a phase/earth fault if it gets damaged. I've literally seen it get run over by trucks/50 tonne boggers, and get skulldragged over all sorts of bullshit and stay working far exceeding what SWA cable could ever take whilst IMO being way safer. I've seen it take all sorts of beating and keep going, but never seen it fail in a unsafe way, it always has tripped out power whenever damaged
I can't say, addition heat-shrink layer or not, I like a data cable being in touch with mains voltage terminals. It would be nice to have a much more robust separator. I guess the connector was never designed with being shared with data in the first place, but it doesn't strike me as ideal. For that matter, I'm not sure I much like the idea of cat-5 embedded in a mains cable in the first place.
With you on that one mate. Seems like you would have to say low likelihood but high consequence on the old risk assessment on that one, I love cat6 swa, that stuff is bomb proof, and probably cheaper to buy 5 core swa and separate cat6 swa then a highly specialised wire.
The only tome I’ve ever used that steel armored cable was in Africa to keep rats from eating the wires.
Comment on the appliance side with the rubber and network cable. Two points; laying the cable in the way it is concerns me as there will be potential for water ingress as two round cross section cables will not fit neatly. Secondly by crushing the network cable CAT5/CAT5E/CAT6 will compromise the integrity of the four twisted pair differential signals within the network cable. This latter point is not ideal, and it would have been better to provide an additional output that can be filled with silicon grommet if no network cable was used.
I believe this solution was the best when you have to consider the acute bend. Tempting though it is to run the rubber cable throughout, when all considered- rodents- you run in the SWA cable.
I really like that install and all the protection.
Done in a work shop that joint is doable, think a poured joint would be easier if you was outside working in a hole though. The connector inside that joint is far too big.
Excellent work though, I do like it.
Hi at 9.49 minutes & before this gets connected upstream. Is there any way to test the cable connections, particularly the ethernet connections. Cheers
Very good gentlemen. Top job
I would definitely avoid any underground joint between my electrical panel and my EV Charger (same applies for the network joint), because it introduces extra failure points (not to mention extra labor and cost).
So...difficult to bend...what about the minumum radius requirements? This is dependent on the diameter and not the material.
if you are working on those things outside in the rain, why not get yourselves one of those gazebo thingys. 👍👍👍👍
Doesn't rubber cable break down when petrochemicals such as petrol or diesel come into contact with the sheath?
No, as I recall, BS7909 which is the guidance for temp electrical systems pertaining to the outdoor events industry, specifies the use of H07 particularly because of it's oil resistance when used around generators etc.
Indeed it does, the sheath swells and eventually becomes permeable. I work in the pump industry and have seen this previously.
That wiska box looks horrible, I chemical joint would be better I think.
H07 is recommended in Marinas for fixed wiring a believe.
I'm not in the business but I know within the regs you have to run data away from power, how does it all work with regards to these cables? Seems like it shouldn't be a thing.
I believe the manufacturers have argued for third party approval that the screening on the cat5 acts as "separation" aswell as probably by the looks of it thicker than normal jacket of insulation. However As there is no recognised British Standard for these types of cables it leaves installers in a very difficult situation. When installing a cable that is not manufactured to a national or international standard.
BS7671 states that where equipment is not covered by a British or Harmonised Standard the responsibility to ensure an adequate degree of safety rests with the installer and/or specifier.
So the cable uses third party accreditation to get around this.
@@adamt3800 I understand that. So are we saying that the separation is the Important thing? Obviously there's risk is Conductors touch in terms of both human touch and electronic devices not liking the voltage but what about the interference? Has anyone done a speed test or anything on these?
The Cat 5 cable is built up of twisted pairs which deals with most of the interference. Speed isn’t really as issue as we are connecting an EV charger which doesn’t transmit huge amounts of data.
@@efixx I was thinking speed could be useful if this sort of cable was used in other applications. Running to an outbuilding being used as an office for example. If speeds can be maintained well enough then this opens up very clean and easy installs I would have thought. As you say the twisted pairs deal with a lot of that interference so it begs the question as to why there is a reg about it? Is the reg for separation purely in regards to Conductors touching?
@@badbradmx couple of companies making cat 7 plus power which is great stuff, I've got some 3x1.5mm² + cat 6 for concert lighting but I haven't made a lot of it yet.
Your 16mm conductors equals our 6 AWG conductors in the US. If we at doing an EV Charger hookup it is considered a Continuous Load. In the US, any load that can be expected to last 3 hours or longer is Rated as a Continuous Load. When we have a Continuous we must derate both the Circuit Breaker and the Cable by a factor of .80. With a 6 AWG of this type we could only pull a maximum load of 40 Amps maximum per conductor. Also, we can only use the 1/2" thru 1" Flexible conduit in the ground, anything larger does not meet the crush requirements for this installation and are not listed to be direct buried nor encased in concrete. Knowing how strict the Electrical Code are in Great Britain, I am really surprised that they allow this conduit for the same reason that you cannot in the US which is the crushing issue.
great videos guys
Cheers Nick - We love a challenge!