A good-humored conversation between Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Michael Shermer is an American science writer, historian of science, and executive director of The Skeptics Society. He and I spoke about God, reason, morality, science and the future, in a good-humored discussion in Berlin, 2018, under the auspices of the German branch of the Richard Dawkins Foundation.
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![Would We Be Better Off Without Religion? - Christopher Hitchens [2007] ✝️ | Intelligence Squared](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DIR7_X-ahy4/mqdefault.jpg)
A Richard Dawkins video is never late... It arrives precisely when it means to...
100%!
As did Her Majesty, Elizabeth, the Great.
What is a “religion” but a metaphysical worldview based on dogma and shared with others? And doesn't Dawkins share with his community a worldview based on a dogmatic claim to empirical "evidence" rather than simply reason (which is the real basis of science - by not ignoring the fact that there is a lot of "non-empirical" reality, such as dealt with in mathematics, e.g.)?
This is obviously a very dogmatic stance, because where the hell is the “evidence“ that all existence is empirically evident ? It is Dawkins' faith, he believes in it without evidence. On the contrary, It is astonishingly illogical, especially for an evolutionary biologist. For obviously there is a reality beyond the horizon of Homo sapiens, just as there is beyond the horizon of Pan troglodytes. That's what is called “transcendence” - something Dawkins is blind to, even though it lies in the very logic of evolution. I can easily deal with atheism. But as a mathematician, I can't ignore Dawkins' lack of logic ...
The French philosopher and Nobel Prize winner Henri Bergson understood evolution much more deeply than Dawkins. In his main work "Creative Evolution" he brilliantly analyzes intelligence as a 'product' of evolution and shows its blind spots. He understood that reality transcends human intelligence: "Philosophers are mistaken when they apply to philosophical speculation a method of thinking designed for action."
Dawkins' attempt to ridicule other channels of human experience - spiritual, mystical, religious - is therefore not only stupid and arrogant, it is similar to the laughter of a deaf-mute who is amused by the sight of a group of people dancing because he himself cannot hear the music.
You draw far too much attention to yourself, Mr. Underhill!
@@rekunta"It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not."
Best quote “you’ve got to pay to dissociate yourself from the church there’s got to be something wrong there”
I'd say best realisation is if you got to pat a new atheist to fake up an anti religious crusade to get EVERYONES FREE SPEECH ABOLISHED somethings wrong.
Cunning - first provide thought crime models that cause christians to be barred from being christians in public just to gain the confidence of fans. Then later on the models SHUT DOWN ALL FREE SPEECH.
The trouble is that new atheisms followers think that thought crimes are civilised and safe to use. These followers also cannot see anything wrong with down thumbing to condemn like at a roman jousting contest if they'd just got as far as being intelligent enough to see that thought crime models are too toxic to allowed anywhere against anybody & will escape their cage to get everyone this might not have happened. But it did & new atheist followers are a large consensus cheering on the abolition of everyones free soeech still stuck in 'we stopped the christians ' mode.
NO - everyone was banned from the freedom to THINK by your mathew hopkins style hero !!!!
New atheists followers gave Dawkins the OK to found the first thought crimes since the witch trials
That’s only in Germany ???🤔🤷♂️🤷♂️, never heard of that anywhere else in the world 🌎
@@carlodefalco7930 it´s the same here in sweden.
@@odt4492No, it’s not. It does not cost anything to leave the Church of Sweden.
As a person of faith, I agree that there is something wrong with that.
First! :) Thank you Mr Dawkins, I'm an apostate that owes a lot to your logic and reasoning.
Dawkins has led his followers over a cliff into immorality. The number of atheists on UA-cam who support Israel, even as it mass-murders children, is both shocking and sickening.
👍
Infidel!!!! thats from some movie i cant remember haha
The Invention of Lying is one of the best movies I have ever seen
I have 'God delusion' in my hands right now reading, for the 3rd time!
Thank you for yours decades of hard work
I read the God Delusion years ago. Where has Dawkins led his followers? Away from the nonsense of Religion, but to where? He 'stands with Israel' even as they mass-murder thousands of children. What kind of morality is that? Is that the end point for atheism; to be morally bankrupt?
My personal hero in this dark world. Where could I ever go to be comfortable around people like Dawkins?
I'd be careful around Dawkins, he supports Israel even as they slaughter thousands of children. Leading atheists, with their support of Israel, clearly show their immorality.
Hope you don't mind my asking (I am almost definitely on your side!), but how do you mean that question?
:3 The great, fellow Jewish brother, Carl Sagan.
Thank you … both of you Sirs! Amazing discussion 🙏
Thank you for making your videos generally available.
Such a great conversation between two of my favorite people. As a recent ex-Mormon, I enjoy the comment about its absurdity!!
If some believes in god any god then they are an enemy not friend.
I am to jews and christians Anti Theist, to muslims i am KAFIR.
have been since i was concepted, 58 years ago.
Congratulations! That can't have been easy, knowing the culture, the community bonds, etc.~🫀
Greetings from Bavaria Mr. Dawkins!!
Greetings to your tribe.
Greetings from Nairobi (where Richard was born), Kenya!
Thank you for this wonderful discussion!
Thank you, there's nothing more valuable than your time.
I really enjoyed this. Thank you Mr Dawkins and Mr Shermer
Both Dawkins and Shermer publicly support Israel even as it commits genocide. Moral degenerates.
Thankful for both of you and your conversation! Just a side note. Mr. Shermer, Penrose and Hameroff say nothing about what you suggested. That’s quite a misinterpretation of Orch. O.R.
I think you are right about this. As I understand it, they do not say that entangled particles can pass from one brain to another, producing any kind of telepathy. Penrose is on record suggesting that the answer to understanding consciousness is going to lie fully within the constraints of science, although he suggests that some new science might be necessary to explain it.
@@peterdfisher940 Precisely. I was rather disappointed at their interpretation of what Penrose and Hameroff actually propose.
Agreed. I wish they would re-address this and correct what they said. A lot of people hearing this would automatically dismiss Penrose and Hameroff's Orch OR due to this complete and utter misinterpretation of their theory.
ORCH O.R is likely the only theory out there that has multiple points of falsifiability which still holds. The two points that have been falsified in the 90's were corrected due to the nature of their wording but their theory is by far the strongest to suggest a mechanism for consciousness.
Agreed. That was a false and misleading statement by Mr. Shermer.
"The task of properly relating science to transcendental knowledge is a great and holy task"
Oh my, I remember watchin😊back then 😮
Delightful conversation! Thank you :)
I enjoyed this conversation! 🍎
Thank you for the work you do Richard.
Thank you
Liberating morality from religion has resulted in the disaster known as going woke. Great job guys.
Life can't exist without! To bring to remembrance and comes with comfort unto all the RENOWNED!
Awareness is known by awareness alone.
Dawkins grace is tireless. Kudos for tolerating this child.
I understand why people reach for religion. It’s so anxiety-provoking to try to unwind mind blowing and ever expanding concepts. Just looking around at nature and people and asking “why are we here?” is the very beginning. It doesn’t get easier for some as we know more scientifically, some use logic and reason and others get more entrenched in easier answers like all knowledge comes from a religious text.
It stems from laziness.
Thanks for your work.
Please- when will we get another Q&A?
i threw away the document that i got when i left the church in germany because simply i couldnt be bothered. i never decided to be part of the church and yet i had to pay a small fee to leave it, it was ridiculous! the staff told me that this "fee to leave the church" is just "processing fees for the document and wont go to the church" but thinking about it now, maybe i should have kept the document and have it signed by Richard Dawkins. that would have been funny
the form of gov in Deutschland sucks. oddly enough Ami's want the same system in the US. especially the left, progressives, liberals and atheists.
As atheists, dont forget the fight is more against islam than toward the church
@@pierren___ thanks for being honest and admitting atheists are on a "crusade"
@@crashoppe yes
@@pierren___ Anti theist's remember Atheists are just pascals wager.
They are as bad as believers.
I have 65,000 years of god less blood flowing through my veins, yet religion cannot go back further than 4,000 years .
Great discussion by a great scientist that's all, it can save the world and destroy the world Doctors most of them helps the people though there is medical care and altruism that's all praise the Lord🎉
My mother says that falling to sleep and not waking up is her perfect idea of life after death. And I agree - it is definitely better than a celestial North Korea !
Illogical.
Ironically, North Korea is atheist.
@@markshepperson3603 Explain why you think so.
But, 100 years ago we were asleep and then we woke up here! 100 years from now we may possibly be 'sleeping' again, but nobody can be certain as to what may happen then. Thoughts?
@@observatory87 Nobody can be certain, but pre-life provides a good idea. It is certainly not like dreaming (REM) sleep, where there is some self-awareness. It is not even like deep sleep where we have no awareness to the point of danger (a threat will not awaken us). If something (a "soul") about us lingers on beyond death, and is akin to pre-life, then it is not much. A pre-life soul has no language, no personality, no experiences, as these are all learned in childhood. The best description of pre-life is oblivion. And that is the most likely state in post-life. It is like deep sleep, with no awareness, but even more profoundly, there is no mind left to become aware of anything. It is absolute peace.
I left Christianity in 1980, at 20. I would definitely check the box "no religion." However, I would certainly not describe myself as atheist.
I think atheists have thrown out the precious baby with the filthy bathwater.
There is much wisdom in the words of Jesus, of the Buddha, of Laozi, to name a few. Eckhart Tolle is also one of great insight, as was Krishnamurti.
Wisdom is simply the knowing within you that guides you through life, safely and happily.
Socrates and many of the Greek philosophers understood this. The spiritual path is about looking within yourself, knowing yourself. It is a journey from a paradigm of dualism to a paradigm of oneness, out of which arises compassion, love, forgiveness, empathy, connection.
Observe, meditate.
Experience, reflect.
Which atheists do you speak of? There are idiots in every group. The atheists I listen to and look up to definitely do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. They are able to appreciate the wisdoms related to the names you mentioned, they simply advocate for the proper and rightful distinction between appreciating their wisdom and considering them as historically/scientifically factual claims. Harry Potter is also filled to the brim with valuable lessons about life, yet no one considers seriously that Hogwarts is real... we can and should do the same with all literary works which do not hold up to scrutiny.
I do not hesitate to define myself as an atheist even though there are plenty of stupid atheists I don't associate myself with because I refuse to let them appropriate the definition of what atheism is. Atheism is not a dogmatic totalitarian belief. It is the result of healthy skepticism and the application of the scientific method. I do not buy into the notion that letting go of superstition must also mean letting go of appreciating the byproducts of human cognition (arts, music, literature/poetry, architecture, etc).
@CG-yw5iu
Wisdom is the fruit of meditation. It serves to guide you consciously through life.
Jesus spoke of this, "The Holy Spirit will teach you everything, and will guide you into all truth." The Holy Spirit is the Inner Guide. You hear, perceive, discern the Holy Spirit through meditation.
Whether you like it or not, you are a non theist, i.e. atheist 😂😂
Students shared "i" AM prepare the way!
I am a paying member
I PAY attention
Bless you.Amen!
Smart and entertaining exchange.
well I have no idea who Jordan Peterson is. Weird to have so many questions about this. Overall a great conversation though - thanks for publishing this!
If you don't know who he is then you probably do not spend too much time online these days and that's probably a good thing. He's a clinical psychologist and professor from Canada who has been a fairly controversial figure (mostly online) in the last few years, primarily because of his stance on transgenderism and it's politicization and his opinions regarding why men seem to be struggling in the current social climate.
He has garnered a lot of sycophants and a lot of undue vitriol recently.
@@Ichthyodactyl Very much agree with your last sentence. Everybody you ask either thinks he's an infallible guru or a total blithering idiot who gets everything wrong.
I'd suggest you watch his Kathy Newman interview that shot him to fame. Just YT search "Jordan Peterson Kathy Newman." On that occasion he was quite brilliant, but watch him discuss religion and it's a bunch of pedantic blather.
See Cass Eriss who critiques him.
21:30 Nevermind the Fermi paradox. "Where is everybody?" Thats decisively counteracted by the Yogi Berra principal. "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded". 😂
This is my thought: life is everywhere, but we shouldn't wait for a more advanced species to land here and reveal themselves to us, because that's the thing: it's us. We're the most advanced. When we discover FTL travel, and reveal ourselves to other worlds, we will be the ones connecting everyone else.
I've never liked the term "Fermi paradox". There's nothing paradoxical about it. It's like if John put a message in a bottle in and threw it in the ocean in America and everybody in China is asking about the "paradox": if John threw a message in a bottle in the ocean, why haven't any of us found it?
"It may be an illusion, but it's a wonderful illusion." To me, that shows me that Dawkins, although without faith, still bases his reality in THAT grand ol' illusion. If there was ever a phrase from Dawkins that made me doubt a purely rationalistic-empirical existence, that is it.
You plugged in so much detail for him we gave to classify that comment as logical fallacy.
Great easy listening video
What is capital I need not to be reminded and comes with comfort? I know capital "i" AM!
Love you richard
Dawkins and Shermer.
Click!
Amazing. Great talk guys!
You two are truly my intellectual heroes, you also show how moral us “evil, satanic” atheists can be!
Both Dawkins and Shermer have come out publicly in support of Israel, even as it murders thousands of children. Shermer reposted 'beheaded Israeli babies'. A foul lie. "evil, satanic" is not far from the truth.
Both Dawkins and Shermer publicly support Israel even as it commits genocide. "Evil, satanic" fits the bill nicely.
You mean theists, right? That would make sense in your comment.
Shermer is a great communicator
Morality came before it was ever written down and codified into books like the Bible.
I'm also interested in doing what is "right" not what is "good".
Reality Mr.Dawkins is that survival is pointless, everything will disappear and hope is stupid… Awesome!
The universe doesn't care, but people do.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. The same thing that makes a fetus special also makes you special, you can't take it away from one and not the other.
Exactly
Keep watch!
Some will say, what did HE just said? Why long to HEAR CONCERNING. RATHER NOT TO EXALT BUT HUMILITY AMONG THEE!
Rest truly follows them go as commanded!
I have a question about Jordan P..................
Let me put on my J. P. hat:
What is a question and what is realistically, strictly you?
Love Richard!
"Why People Believe Weird Things" is a great book, and more relevant now than ever. I'm an atheist, but disagree with them that this is necessarily a good thing for all.
Which? Atheism, Shermer's book, or Religion?
@@MichaelKingsfordGrayAnything, including those you mentioned, can be used for tribalism.
Among the 'weird things' that Shermer believes are support for Israel even as it mass-murders thousands of children.
@@jurassicthunder Tribalism is a part of human nature, it helped us to survive. We feel better when we are a part of a tribe. Today, for many people, religion or atheism or even worse, gender politics are tribes.
Rather Patronising attitude
morality is the golden rule it needs no attachment to man made religion its main tenant is to never indoctrinate youth with a lie ....from its start it is already counter to all god delusions.
What is the morality of Dawkins and Shermer who both support Israel even as it slaughters thousands of civilians?
Dawkins saved my life... kind of
This video is from 2018, but talked about AI and Oppenheimer, as if it was made just right about NOW - in 2023/24! Another stellar speech from Mr. Dawkins and Michael. Thank you.
Who can mention? Come in front and remind! Remember thy shared "i" AM
😍 wow Hashim All Ghaili was there. He is really an outstanding guy.
can someone explain the voting age analogy Richard made in regards to species and evolution? that one went over my head…
Sure, Dawkins made a mess explaining that,
The argument would go something like that :
- If there is a development from childhood to adulthood, there must be a moment where you were a child before and you were an adult after
- However, At no point in time you go from a child to an adult. This is because it's a continuum
- Therefore development didn't occur
And yet, you do reach voting age, you do become an adult
Her says it's kind of analogous with the following counter evolution reasoning.
Given the theory of evolution :
- All organisms are related through "common ancestry."
That is, before one point in history, there was no species B, only A, and after that point in history there was B, a new species evolved from A
Let's call A "Homo Sapiens" and B "Homo Sapiens Sapiens"
theory of evolution says :
- "Homo Sapiens Sapiens" is evolved from "Homo Sapiens"
However
- With sexual reproduction, 2 members of different species can't reproduce
- And 2 members of the same species can reproduce and produce an offspring of the same species too.
- A member of a species A, has two parents of the same species A
- 2 parents of "Homo Sapiens" give birth to a "Homo Sapiens"
- therefore there's no way for 2 "Homo Sapiens" to give birth to a "Homo Sapiens Sapiens"
- In other words, there's no point in time where the child of "Homo Sapiens" is now a member of a new entirely sexually incompatible new species "Homo Sapiens Sapiens"
- Therefore "Homo Sapiens Sapiens" can't be an evolved species from "Homo Sapiens", and the theory of evolution is wrong.
It's wrong since "Homo Sapiens Sapiens" does exist, it's us, and it cannot have evolved from a different species given what we just said about reproduction, so it must have appeared another way.
@@AdrienJar wow, thanks for taking the time to give such a good explanation! I assumed it was probably a good analogy, just not worded great in the moment. Makes perfect sense now, much appreciated 👍
I think the evolution of language is analagous. At one point, noone spoke English, but there was never a time when a non English speaking mother gave birth to an English speaking child.
@@AsFewFalseThingsAsPossible not quite… no one is born speaking a language, your parents’ or otherwise. You are born as your species though.
@@K_B_1 The thing evolving here is the language itself, it never went from one language to another in one generation
Many have rest from their labors!
24:58 Can someone tell what's the exact name that Micheal mentioned as his late friend, Vic Stayer?
@@stu1037 Yes thats him. Thanks very much.
There many atheist who don’t have morality just like many theist being a ethical person is based on personal values and how open minded individuals are
@@PartlySunny74 they may have pointed it out but that doesnt make it true. most people are easily manipulated and can be fool by anyone or anything. dawkins is a good example of this fact. truly intelligent people choose their own path.
By definition, a theist cannot have an open mind. They believe in something they can’t even find on their own and deny any natural reality which interferes with their supernatural claims. Does that sound open minded to you?
Where is everybody? Incomprehensible 36:18 distances in time and place away from us. A civilization millions of light years from us would be millions of years old, and a civilization that exists now will not be detectable for millions of years.
Yes can speak without making a noise! Yet, how else? Without shared "i" AM?
Had I prescribed to the American philosophy of "End Justifies the Means," I would have established a religion and a church.
At 41:00 speaking of using words or stopping to use words I would like to mention what happened to the word Swastika or drawing of a Swastika. India Swastika image is sacred and used daily and in special ceremonies. In western world it is known as evil, hence it cannot be used and that is not fair.
You rock Rick 🤘😎
Students will say every conversations!
please add Azerbaijani or Turkish subtitles 🪐
Its the same here in sweden, if you are baptised you pay a % of your earnings to the church, its free to leave but still...
13:00 "what would it take for you to believe ...". What does the word 'god' refer to? The only definition you can give that word is "unfalsifiable figment of the imagination". So yes, I believe that some people take seriously an unfalsifiable figment of their imagination. We need to stop given any respect to that word when it's used in a question.
Utilitarians were on the right lines, but were focussing on the wrong metrics. It sounds right to minimise suffering or maximise happiness, but this does not work. The founding fathers of the US actually identified the solution: the metric you need to maximise is liberty. I am amazed that philosophers do not develop this.
I do believe in God, and his name is Professor Richard Dawkins!
Are ten commandments religious axioms.Prof.Dr.Nasir Fazal Cambridge
I used to admire Dawkins in his championing of truth, but apparently he has abandoned that stand, if his flippant answer at 1:52:05 is any indication. The consequence of which is to have reduced his viewpoints vs. others (incl. religious ones) to a matter of competing, subjective illusions. Stick to science, Dawkins, and leave philosophy to those who can defend consciousness and free will and thus give meaning, truth and real value to that science and to your work.
Merging cultures into one = error error! Does not compute! Can't divide by zero! It's either one shared culture(impossible, and or unappealing) or different cultures trying to get along in the same space, which will always be flawed. The 3rd and only other option is to not have different cultures occupying the same space. All those in favor of meat section at the grocery store will never agree to have it removed so the vegans don't have to smell it. It will never work. Which is why we see so much failure occurring, along with resentment and other negative feelings. As someone who lives in a city with a very high Asian population in a mostly white country, the cultural clash is so blatantly obvious you can feel it in the air, despite everyone's effort to deny it in fake nausea inducing political correctness. Why deny it? Just because my values do not align with someone else does not mean there are racist feelings. I don't like golfing. Does that mean I hate people who golf? I like bears and I like honey bees. I would never hold such cognitive dissonant feelings as to hope for the best that they can live together in a confined space. Are you kidding me? Just because I see good reason to separate bees from bears(for their own good) does not in any way even hint at anything racist. I personally don't possess very strong ties to tradition/my culture and prefer to dabble in all that is on the table. But I would also prefer a variety of cultures over a bunch of clones. Would it be so terrible to have Japan remain mostly Japanese? Or should we make everyone into clones who all share the exact same values? I believe the answer is beyond easy to reach. Just stop lying to yourself and others. Lack of integrity is not a positive character trait.
Before you can liberate morality from religion you must be moral.
في الاسلام...أنَّ الجَنينَ تُنفَخُ فيه الرُّوحُ إذا تمَّ له أربعةُ أشهُرٍ، وعلى هذا فمتى تمَّ له أربعةُ أشهُرٍ فإنَّه لا يجوزُ إنزالُه إنزالًا يموتُ به على أيِّ حالٍ كان
لأنَّه صار إنسانًا فلا يجوزُ قَتلُه
A fresh perspective for someone looking for a decent Holy Week movie.
This is fun..
... Do we want to Live forever ? ... Tough question, 'cause NOBODY really wants to die, unless they're in great physical or emotional pain, and then I guess that's their call ...
But if we ALL live forever, what are we going to eat, where are we ALL gonna live ... and how much TV can ANYBODY stomach ? ...
In a sample of 2307 adults in the US., IQ was found to negatively correlate with self reports of religious identification, private practice or religion, mindfulness, religious support, and fundamentalism, but not spirituality.
Sounds like a completely useless study in the ad hominem fallacy
... Being dead forever shouldn't be a frightening idea ... You wont know about it, so what is the difference ? - IF, on the other hand, you go to Hell or sit in a dull cloudy Heaven, - now THAT shit IS scary !
Fear of death is cause of religion. Not much controversy there
And the denial of fear is the cause of weakness. Who is not afraid? The prepared one. So there is no controversy in this either? How much, how little... remains to be seen. It is not caused by religion, the fear of death, but it is caused by the emptiness of the soul.
Don't listen to those who make mistakes in an "attractive" way and don't follow the wrong example. I have demands from you, and when you will have them as well, I hope you will not regret making choices that make you suffer through your own mistakes. It can become a great suffering when you have to face your own mistakes that you have been addicted to through denial. But there is only one way, the one in which the crazy man no longer uses himself or those around him.
The Lord is death for the demons but for the devotees he is eternal life.
The wilfully irreligious are just annihilationists, seeking comfort it nothingness.
Se a religião é o ópio do povo e o ópio dos cientistas é ser a religião do povo . Desiste porque , o seu discurso jamais convencera
Who gives increase nor approval?
If I were an atheist, I would stop using moral language like "right" and "wrong" in favour of terms like "beneficial for survival" and "detrimental to survival." It's more honest and would avoid the debate between atheists and the faithful about objective morality.
When does the interview start?
These people think they are smarter than they actually are. But their ignore in science clearly shows.
The principles of thermodynamics imply that a crystal that is heated will have a certain density of defects -- vacancies, dislocations, etc., and that if you cool the crystal the density of defects will decrease, but there will be some defects in thermodynamic equilibrium. I wonder if there is a quasi-thermodynamic notion of stupidities and superstitions that exists in some sort of equilibrium in society. The kinds of junk people believe in has changed but the amount has not. The western foothills of the bell curve will not be denied.
Wann waren die in Deutschland??
👏👏
Seems like everyone has
work for me !
fear gratitude
brain explanation
soul explanation
You are the prophet of science
Dawkins name is on the list.
Physics. Electrons. Power.
Pop are ye talking to thyself nor who ye are talking too? In front of thee?
These guys always have to take shots at Deepak since he defeated them in debate.
A confirmation bias, seekers paradise.
Yes , female circumcision is Obscene ! But what about the religious sacred cow of Male circumcision which ought to be equally despicable and practiced again for religious reasons !