Motorcycle Riders - You're Leaning the Wrong Way
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2021
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Ever notice that police motorcyclists lean their bodies away from a turn? They're trained to. But why might this uncommon body position be helpful for our motorbikes?
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"...physics is like politics. It puts real effort into fighting imaginary forces." One of the smartest and funniest lines I have heard in a LONG time!!!
I’m still giggling, his lines are so consistently good, but that one takes the prize!
Absolute genius.
Except it’s not an imaginary force, it’s the center of gravity’s resistance to a change in direction of travel and therefore creating a couple moment you have to offset with lean. This is why Ryan should sit down and let the mechanical engineers do the talking, like Mike on Bikes that covered this topic more correctly.
+NuniaBusiness Yeah, but it's still not a force. The object is maintaining the same velocity and direction of movement. What is happening is that the bike is changing it's direction, which pulls the rider towards the same direction. The rider having a mass greater than zero rezists this change in direction, but there is no force pulling them in the direction opposite of the bike.
And yet so subtle!!! Genius!
“A life changing moment when one runs out of tire”
The peg shaped scar on my foot felt that
Bots nowadays amarite.
My $20,000 surgery felt that.
When my pegs hit, they increase the drag, and the control I have on the bike. Like applying light rear brake to keep from going too far back in a wheelie or riding on just the rear wheel.
or when one hits the center stand and picks up the back tire. my broken ankle fells that ever other step
@@mikehenthorn1778 Yep. Some people learn motorcycling the hard way.
I'm a cyclist in a city and have learnt to counterlean on my own accord. Never bothered to understand why I felt my bike was so much more agile and stable this way. Thanks for the vid!
i am too but i tend to want to keep the bike upright
i always think the tires will slip if the bike leans too much
guess i'll have to try doing the opposite
When I got on my motorcycle for the first time and started riding the loop in my granddads gravel driveway I found that I was counterleaning and I didn’t even know what it was at the time, I just knew the it felt smoother at low speeds and didn’t feel like the bike was going to fall. I later learned it was called counterleaning and is something you’re supposed to do for slow turns. Granted my first bike is a 02 honda shadow spirit 750 turned into a bobber it’s about 400 lbs or so
I'm a ski instructor and the same applies to high performance skiing.
The mysteries of the counterlean! It's like your bike had a secret dance move all along🕺
Counterleaning increases lean angle of bikes, makes it less stable and slower.
One thing you didn’t mention is about suspension. The suspension is telescopic and can only act in one direction so if the bike is leant over and you hit a bump, it’s possible that your suspension won’t soak up the bump because it’s leaning too far away from the direction that your wheel wants to move. This can result in loss of traction mid corner. All techniques are useful in some situation.
Really good point
And so you'd want to lean off and reduce lean angle.
Also he talked about riders saving slides by poking out their leg. Yeah they're counter leaning but that doesn't speak to the efficacy of the technique when you exaggerate it like he's showing.
And you can't use the technique lifting your whole ass torso up to save a slide. What riders will actually do at full tilt, is drop the body lower or keep it low, and pick the bike up.
You're only going to return to a neutral position when it kicks out violently, and then it's smooth just let the bike toss you in to that position. Even then I'm not counter leaning though.
That point might be a wash depending on the type of bump... but I can't see myself leaning into a turn through a pothole. I'd be able to get the bike upright if I was leaning the bike and not me. To correct the turn I simply pick up the bike.
I mean if you're pushing the edge of the capabilities of your bike and the road, that's all nice and dandy. But in everyday traffic/riding, you're supposed (like if you don't want to run the cumulative error of dying horribly in a crash) to go for a maximum of 50% of what your bike can do. So if you're approaching a corner and you're so fast and your angle is so far that the compensation of a bump can break traction, well, you know, you can always just corner slower. In everyday riding that is, plenty of opportunity to go all out on the track.
@@meridionreftaghn3971 It doesn't really matter. Even in safe conditions, lean angle increases risk substantially. That's why people get taught to lean with their weight and by countersteering rather than counter-leaning, unless you're doing very low speed maneuvers. Many people make the mistake of leaning the bike first when they ride on mountain roads, and they end up crashing far more frequently because they sacrifice half the grip and suspension on the unnecessary extra angle.
"like vox" LOL
Drewski on my favorite motorcycle channel??? Do you ride? That would be dope 👌
Mr. Drewski Sir, you here?
Don’t Tell Mere!!!!
Sorry Wrong Carriker 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Good to see you here Drewski! 👍
Fun fact - I currently have an obscure motorcycle with a right-side kickstand. When writing this video, I wasn't sure which bike I was going to use, so I wrote the joke as left / vox and right / fox since it works either way. ~RF9
@@FortNine ha, that interesting, i don't beloved i ever saw a motorcycle that has a right side kickstand
More when i think about it, is there even an advantage for having motorcycles park leaning left? Is it have to do with most people being right handed? Hmm
I've been riding over 30 years and use all three. I find it depends on the situation, road quality, and speed.
been riding for 25 years and l use all four
Well said there is a lot more to the safe operation of a motorcycle than can be taught in a 4hr safety course
@@bjorn1583 is #4 a lowside? lol
@@jonfindlay7838 its a normal body lean while still keeping the bike upright, best way to keep bike on its wheels in greasy conditions.
only fine weather riders think there is only 3 ways to lean
Exactly. Rarely does it happen but in this case Ryan F9's video is a bit misleading, especially for the new riders.
I don't even own a motorcycle, but these videos are so well made I just watch them as entertainment! Plus, you'd be surprised how well some of the advice crosses over to MTB and even driving in general
Oh yeah counter leaning would be very useful on a mountain bike I'd imagine. Cause yall guys go sliding around everywhere, so staying upright would give predictability and control.
But I don't ride a mountain bike so verify that yourself man. I can tell you that this advice is very limited in usefulness on a motorcycle. You pretty much don't use it a high speed from my experience man. You'd have to be drifting in to corners, aggressive trail braking, to take use of this in a high speed scenario.
@@ihateeverything3972 It is, really gives you more of a sense of control on loose terrain. Side knobs on MTB tires are made to dig in and grip the corners, so that's probably part of the reason why
I always mention to people who don't own a motorcycle or even ever rode on one. If you think about motorcycles and motorcycling most or all of the time. You ARE in fact a "biker" in every sense of the word. And fashion? Dress like you just got off a bike! Easy!!!! 😎👍
Take the MSF class. They make it very easy to learn how to ride and you get your license. It’s a great experience even if you never bother to get a motorcycle afterward.
I knew this since kid riding a motocross style bike and i am questioning why i am not leaning like motogp
Counter leaning will increase your lean angle compared to the alternatives, which is important to keep in mind if you don't have much ground clearance. It's a lot easier to scrape pegs while counterleaning...
I had a seizure reading this 😂
@@wolf7292I had a seizure while reading this.
thats also what I thought. If you counterlean it will increase the lean angle which makes the tires more likely to slip away. So its actually safer to lean in with the body and keep the bike as neutral as possible, so it has more grip. Why hasnt he mentioned it?
@@zjaeger1800 He mentioned leaning in is safer when approaching maximum cornering speed at the end of the video. As a new rider, I also find that these videos start to explain an interesting concept counter to popular knowledge, but leave me with more questions than answers by the end of the video. I wish there was just a little bit more info to contextualize when these techniques are proper or improper.
@@mpotynski thats completly right. Let me provide you with some further information. Leaning the body into the road and thus keeping the bike less leaned-in creates the same forces as vice versa and is thus safer for you / for the tires to not slip away when you actually know the road beforehand, and thus can enter the corner with high speed without loosing grip. The probability to loose grip decreases as the bikes lean angle stays rather low.
Counterleaning is much safer if you enter corners at a low=normal speed considering the traffic rules and speed limit. To be precise, it means that if you drive with regular speed, counterleaning is more than enough to take the corner adequately while you keep a good overview of the road and can react much faster to something unexpected.
On the other hand, it is much harder to react and adapt to something unexpected if you lean in with your body; you lack the time to correct your mistake.
physics: how many scraping parts do you want?
motorcycle policeman: yes
About a year ago, cops where I'm at started switching from old cruiser dad bikes to new ADV dad bikes.
It's funny because it's true
@@CaptainJacksIsland mine are on bmw touring dad bikes
I was taught counter leaning in my rider's course and it felt weird at first, but once I got the hang of it, it made total sense and the bike just does what it's designed to do. The only way you get in trouble is not trusting the bike to do its thing.
Unless you are at speed then you never counter lean
I just watched a video of Japanese police training where they lean (not counter lean!) aggressively *on wet pavement*. I believe counter lean is the technique to be used when one is a beginner
@@AlessioSangalli If you want to keep maximum traction on the wheels then leaning is the way to go, as long as you have a good amount of speed built up before the turn. So yes leaning is the safest in rain.
My riders course was all dirt bikes so they made us lean as we all where in the habit of counter leaning
Unless you have slippery tires
I just started ebiking at high speeds and I just started doing this intuitively and wow, I fell in love with how beautifully balanced turning became, almost like dancing with forces of motion.
I totally understand why people ride motorcycles now.
One of my favorite aspects of your videos, are not just that they're educational, but highly entertaining! Don't know how it took so long to find this channel!
"physics is like politicians, it puts real effort into fighting imaginary forces"
Straight comedy genius! 😂
I wasn't expecting that one at all. It's absolutely brilliant. Had to pause the video for a minute to recover and also admire how incredibly true it can be.
Yeah I loved that one too. Made me smile. Like alot. 😁
How so?
@@DaBawski bruh?
@@xavier9183 Vox is a media business that leans left politically :)
“See when I lean down like this my view is only left, like Vox.” 😂
I was looking for this comment 😂
Lmao, way too accurate
Such a great gag
haha I had to replay it a couple times to make sure I heard it correctly. Great observation
lmaooo
Thank you for thanking the time explaining it. Helped a lot for me as a newbie rider, despite 22 years of motorcycle licence, but never drived a motorcycle before.
Wow! I'm 60 and been on bikes since I was 6 and have been doing this instinctively. this was a great video and very well done and presented.
Lol all the street rossis are gonna be pissed after watching this.
Street Rossis with their saggy boobs
Yeah, because it's actually misleading for everyone having fun on public roads. 6:55
@@ayushsuyayush As much as those people are annoying, the opposite is also. Bragging about how tiny your bike is, and therefore how big your dick is lol.
Also this counterleaning stuff only works at speeds where you are not using the entire tire to begin with.
Engagement comment
You did do a video recently of a guy counterleaning his peg into the ground and yeeting himself into the brush...
ua-cam.com/video/y8ngX35EJgI/v-deo.html
1:10 - "physics is like politics puts real effort to fight imaginary forces" 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣👍 Hilarious 🤣
😁Thats fact. And we got imaginary forces now in the White House. He's 100% correct.
1:03 is the timestamp
The vox dig was good too lol
@@slicaltimistic1 hes Canadian, similar situation though, 2 vegetables
I swear he makes the jokes first then makes the rest of the video around them.
Excellent video. Love the physics discussion. I routinely discuss the physics of motorcycle turning with fellow riders and you nailed it. Largest factor for which way to lean are your tires. Counter leaning is great for most slower scenarios, but at higher speeds, most conventional tires (especially with cruisers) don't have enough grip on the side. Leaning into the turn in these scenarios keeps the bike further upright where the grip is best.
Agreed. The grip gets worse the closer to the rim the ground/rubber contact point is. There is less elastic movement of the rubber up there near the rim. That rigidity = less contact with irregular ground = slippage.
Describing the physics of something as visceral and pure as motorcycle riding seems pedantic af.
And no it is not deceptively simple or "more complex than you think. It is the physics that go back millennia.
I love intellectual discussion and all but ffs these days I prefer retards and goofs just having fun and shooting the breeze about new and awesome bikes.
@@jamesmandahl444 visceral and pure, yet still based on the physical world. Understanding (and appreciating) the physics behind something doesn't make it less enjoyable--to me, that increases the enjoyment. I'm sorry that your preference for stupidity somehow upset you when seeing my love for the scientific aspect of riding.
It sure doesn’t look like the bike is upright when leaning when I watch MOTO GP. It looks like the rider AND bike are leaning to the max. Maybe it’s just me.
@@ZabDevin It's a balance at that level. Imagine trying to achieve the same cornering by counter leaning. Impossible. For max speed and grip the driver_always_ leans further than the bike. That's why you scrape knees and elbows, and not handlebars
when passing my motorbike license, we learned to counter lean at low speed, and lean at high speed. it felt pretty right, more nimble and agile maneuvering in busy streets, more stable when doing high speed curve on the freeway.
the same thing
I was thinking the same... It does make low speed turn more confident and lean with bike on a higher speed is more fun!
"when I'm tucking down here my view is only left, like vox" unbelievably savage pun!
Ironically spain has a far right party called Vox.
and Vox is just another television channel in Germany.
And more bizarrely the very left pan European Volt movement almost called themselves Vox.
@@carlosandleon yes, vox is a very common term, as it is simply the Latin word for voice.
The Volt party/movement is certainly not "left" but just regular neoliberal in a new package.
@@lennoxbaumbach390 iz pretty left brother
Vox is cancer
I just lean how I feel I need, from counter lean, to neutral to lean... just depends on the road condition, type of turns, depends.
On the wet, I usually use my body to lean, and keep the motorcycle straight, to avoid slipping.
I’m curious about this, as I too tend to straighten out the bike in a wet curve or a curve I suspect has gravel on pavement, but aren’t the centrifugal force and friction the same either way?
You think your using your body to lean but your not doing shit. Your not going fast enough or turning hard enough to use body weight, if you were on a track I’d believe you
@@Max-mj8sl yes but the grip/ contact surface is different
@@Max-mj8sl On my tires the main channels to move the water away from the center line are in the middle of the tire. The more I lean in, the less water is channeled away
I just slow down so I can stay more upright and finish the corner
This was amazing, thanks for sharing! Will definitely try to improve. I’ve been always leaning in the latest weeks, but now will counterlean a lot more for safety measures
These videos are the finest-edited pieces on the internet. Gorgeous videography.
So glad us motorcycle riders have fortnine on our side. If there is a battle of wits among bikers and rest, we can count on fortnine to lead us 😁
underrated comment
😁 body position with the lean or Counter lean
That feeling is unexplainable when you see your favourite Travel Vlogger @AnnyArun commenting on another favourite content creator of yours.
Present sir. 🔥🌹😀
Arunanna maatu shuru aagli😂😂 @Annyarun
"How does the same problem with the same rules have three different solutions?"
- It doesn't
Damm if its not some great writing
It sounds cool, unfortunately it is wrong, because there in fact are multiple solutions to the same problem.
Peter, the point is that it's not three solutions to the same problem with the same rules, but that it's three solutions to three problems with the same rules. Leaning solves the problem of cornering faster by increasing friction. Counterleaning solves the problem of cornering sharper by eliminating an alignment gap between the gravitational and normal forces.
@@aloneill6337 and neutral should be what most of us should do on public roads, except in emergencies were quick swerves might be life saving. I wonder how street Rossis deal with quick evades if they chase the elbow 100 % of the time .... do they even have counter leaning in their system ?
@@ioandragulescu6063 that's a good question. 🤔
@@peteraugust5295 found the street Rossi :/
You guys are doing a great job. Ryan, the editing, the script, perfect !
i really really love ur channel. that smile and the comforting approach is top notch. i feel so secure and happy watching because i feel like yes ur here to teach me something and increase my knowledge and not here to show off your knowledge and be little those who are getting started. i used to think i was doing it wrong but i dont have a sport bike yet, i ride an aprilia sr 160 and a road bike cycle and in that i counter lean :)
This is easily becoming one of my favorite channels. The production, information, and humor is incredible.
well when u get tarantinos son full chops to do woteva he wants... woddayaexpect
@@urmama54 really? he does look like him!
Yeah he's VERY good. He puts A LOT of effort into all aspects of his production and presentation. My God it's sickening to think that some fool with a 20s clip of unedited footage of whatever can get paid the same by a 'like'.
Anyway, he's a great young fella. I wish him all the best.
@@Sionnach1601 too bad the advice is completely wrong. Everything else is just top notch.🙄
I think you need to lean differently for low speed turning and high speed turning. In low speeds, the bike has a tendency to fall in the direction of turn, so you lean the opposite side to prevent it from falling. In high speeds, the bike resists the turn due to angular momentum so you lean in the direction of turn to prevent the bike from standing up. Somebody with Physics knowledge might even come up with a simple formula to calculate the speed at which this switch happens.
Thats what it is. The video almost pitched it like every sport bike riding is false in itself or moto gp is a different breed of bike to have that lean.
@@changsangma1915 yes the video is very gay
You don't need calculations. If you are brushing against steering lock, but the pegs aren't dragging, yet, you need to counterlean if you want to turn any tighter.
In a U turn, leaning the bike more (by counterleaning your body) tightens the turning radius. If you walked the bike around the U turn, standing straight up, you wouldn't be able to make as tight of a circle, even holding the bike against full lock the entire time.
you never need to lean with the bike in a turn on a public road. You can still counter lean at high speeds, depending what high speeds is considered to you. If you obey the speed limit of a corner you can counterlean with no problem and no risk
@@bogdantudor7195 lol obey speed limit on a bike. gay.
as a 16year old , on a 50cc , this has changed a lot of my perspective on what to focus on when cornering , awesome vid
Just recently found this channel. One of the best around!
As an engineering student I love watching these videos. Physics mixed with humour, I love it!
I remember being taught how to lean in my MSF course. Over 5 years of experience later I've wondered why it never felt right, and why counter leaning always does. Thanks for making sense of a mystery for me 🙏
In the MSF course that I took just this last summer, they taut us to counter lean when turning. So I guess things have changed in the U.S. MSF courses.
We have no such course in India and I was doing it intuitively. Just realised it's a thing.
@@SunilKumar-nf7ft Me too man
leaning like moto gp riders never felt right to me
It feels wrong because we instinctively don't want to get our faces ground off on the pavement. Also, in general, our sense of how physics works tends to break down the further away with get from normal walking and running speed. We're great at speeds below that and when throwing projectiles, but as you move away from those areas, our intuitive sense for how things work breaks down.
@@DarkPhoenixDack125 They revise the course material regularly. The main issue with the course is that it's too short. It should be an extra day, the only reason it's not an extra day is that in most areas the course is optional, it's just the test that's mandatory.
This channel, entertaining, informative, some good dry humor, please don't stop the vids!
I just can't stop watching and re-watching again. You are just amazing! Thank you for such an informative and quality issues!
5:51 “If I am tucking down here my view is only left, like Vox” 🤣🤣🤣
One thing I wish you had mentioned is that the bike's suspension travels in line with the the tires. This is important: the more upright the bike, the better the suspension can work. The more you lean it over, the more bumps are smacking the tire "sideways" and the more unstable the bike will become.
I'm glad you brought this up as it's an interesting Catch-22! You're right - lean inward, bike is a few degrees more upright, tire is slightly more able to absorb bumps and not lose traction. But in that body position you're unlikely to save the slide if the tire loses grip anyway. The flip side is to counterlean, let the bike be a few degrees more leaned and slightly more at risk of losing traction, but now you're in the best body position to balance a slide should one occur. In my experience, it's better to lean on a racetrack where the angles are extreme and the pavement flaws are minor. But on public streets, the difference in bike angle based on body position is not so huge. Meanwhile the pavement flaws could be potholes or sections of 2x4. Hit something like that mid-corner and you're gonna slide regardless, so might as well be in the best body position. ~RF9
@@FortNine On the street, in town, don't honk or tweet, slow down
@@FortNine You're less likely to lose the grip at a more conservative lean angle. If you're riding in on a road where conditions cause you to lose grip while being relatively upright, perhaps it is not a good time to ride lol.
Your frame takes the chatter when leaned
@@somedirtyvideos yes, but not very well. A flexing frame is like a shitty, kinda undampened spring.
This video is gold. I’ve long been looking for a video that genuinely explained counterbalance for adv / dirt riders.
Thank you.i thought im wrong in doing counter leaning every time i ride my bike but today i know this is the best way to prevent accident
It depends on the bike you're using, the corner you are taking and which speed are you into it. Otherwise, you simply won't pass throught corners as fast as MotoGP riders without changing the center of gravity by leaning your body along with the bike...
"going fast is dangerous!" Yes! But try going slowly on a multi lane highway/motorway/autobahn... It's doing to be very dangerous. Bottom line is it depends on circumstances. If you are on super slippery ground for example... You are going to want to keep that bike upright as much as possible
@@MorreNub Nobody here is going as fast as a motogp rider. To even bring motogp into the conversation is moronic.
If you on a normal sports bike on the roads during high speed turns you shouldnt counter lean. It isnf ar more risking than a normal lean position.
The way I was taught to corner on dirt was to visualize putting your weight over the contact patch of the tire when on a slippery or loose surface so there is extra force straight down onto where your tire is actually biting . I immediately felt more comfortable on the twisty gravel roads after having it explained like that.
are there any other tips?
@@thebirisi I never learned to ride formally so this tip was one of the few I ever got. Right when I heard it I wanted to get on my bike because I knew it was going to help.
Tim - Last month I was out dual sporting with a friend who noticed I was especially cautious coming into turns on gravel roads. He expressly told me to lean the bike into the corner but "slide your ass over the opposite side to get more centered over the tire". Made all the difference in the world. I was taking much more speed into the corner and my confidence shot way up.
Dirt biking is sweet. Rode street bikes for 6 years before I got my first one. Thought I knew how to ride. Just learned I didn’t know shit.
I'm surprised how people find this information astonishing. Any of you have ridden a bicycle? You counter-lean on a bicycle because it goes slow. Counter-leaning on slow speed is intuitive to me.
I intuitively started counter leaning when I started riding an enduro. The higher the center of gravity, the more profound the the increased stability becomes. Great presentation as usual!
@RobertRagnarsson yup. And counter leaning with a road bike will make you crash in no time. The video is a bit misleading
@@cfvgd nah it covers it all, but you do have to watch and listen. Tip: stop trying to drag knee on the street
@@TheRealSykx nope. It's not about dragging knees. It's about gravity and grip. Front washout. Being able to save a spin or near crash. If you sit up like an idiot you will crash like an idiot.
@@cfvgd yeah he covers that too bud, rewatch the vid and try listening this time
@@TheRealSykx good. Then you know that hanging off is the correct way to take corners safely.
When I started riding motorbikes, nobody told me what to do so I watched others and mimicked them leaning both their bike and their body as if they were on a race track. But I was on public roads, at 'reasonable speeds', so mimicking them made me feel that this motorcycling 'thing' is 'right on the edge'. One day I leaned my bike but for some unknown reason remained upright. That felt really good. I've been practicing counterleaning while countersteering for a couple of years and now I'm riding the winding river gorge nearby at 60mph for most of the way (the exceptions being 90 degree turns). Then I found this video which has confirmed that what I accidentally found myself doing is, in fact, the recommended skill. It all depends on speed.
Thank you very much for this excellent instructional video. I recommend it to everyone who will listen.
Another Quality Video showing me that at 72 soon, I can still learn.
A Friend uses the word "Revelations" meaning EVENTUALLY and SUDDENLY finding something out that Others have LONG known.
Your Videos are full of these little Gems.
I am very pleased to have found your Channel.
.
I did the RCMP North Van skills test last week and when I was dipping on my leans which was fine on the change lanes, but when it got to the tighter turns, I started putting a foot down. I immediately got pulled over to the side by an officer in a monster touring bike. Showed me how to lean properly and then I killed it on the course.
🤘
Thank you kindly.
5:47 - "see if I am tucking down here , my view is only left , like vox " 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
oh I missed that joke 😆😆😆😆😆
@@seattlegrrlie many did😂😂😂 and not only this one
Fun fact - I currently have an obscure motorcycle with a right-side kickstand. When writing this video, I wasn't sure which bike I was going to use, so I wrote the joke as left / vox and right / fox since it works either way. ~RF9
@@FortNine GODAMN, youre a good writer
@@FortNine you’ve saved your self from the conservative motorcycle community.
This video is not just informative. It's so satisfying to watch that I've watched it MULTIPLE TIMES!! 😂
Good video. Counterleaning is real world. Learned on bicycle and most well appreciated in a slow turning course.
My god the production value has gotten good on these videos. I don’t even own a motorcycle and I keep catching myself rewatching these.
Please don’t waste your life any longer. Get a motorcycle ASAP 😊😅
I find that pace is the major factor for me. If I’m commuting or just cruising around, I’ll stay upright and counterbalance. If I’m riding a little more aggressively in the twisties or track, I hang off. There’s no “better” method for me. Master both for different situations and let your technique and style be fluid and reflect a well rounded Moto education.
Really appreciate the amount of efforts and research put into making of this video. Amazing content and video quality.
a white guy who doesn't feel the need to care about politics.... not original
This channel is brilliant. Physics, Bikes, Humour.
I’m sad to say, I think I’ve watched every single Fortnine clip available. Haven’t owned a bike in 10yrs and physically can’t own one again but anticipation of these clips is like getting a new issue of Two Wheels back in the day. Simply sublime works gang. Thanks.
Mike on Bikes did an excellent video on this, performing laps on a supermoto while only leaning normally and others while counter-leaning. I recommend checking it out if you want to look at some actual data analysis on it.
Did a track day on my sumo. No lean lazy way scraping pegs and boots i had less corner speed than doing knee down. It was a bit more important when ya on a 250...
On the flipside i was way more tired physically jumping around like a monkey haha.
@@superdupermax usually comes down to the rider and what they're comfortable with. Another guy would take your bike and be faster with a more upright posture and pushing the bike over.
@@superdupermax Yeah, Mike on Bikes basically came to the conclusion that knee down is better for corner speed and counter leaning is better for tight corners wherein the goal is to get the bike pointed in the right direction ASAP. Hence why people counter lean a lot in supermoto racing as the corners are often very sharp. I get that this video is focused on street riding and that's why it says counter-leaning is the right answer, but the real answer is "it depends." If I'm in a long sweeper on the street, even if I'm not going fast, normal leaning would be ideal if there's a hazard around a blind corner as it means the bike is closer to being upright. But counter-leaning makes it easier to swerve. There's really no right answer other than do what you're best at. I frequent the track so I have a hard time counter leaning, but it also means I have an extremely good grasp on the limits of braking and traction. It would be smarter/better for me to handle a hazard the way I am experienced rather than try something I rarely do because youtube told me it's better.
And not a link in sight >D
@@gangefors i got you ua-cam.com/video/STKN8ELilCQ/v-deo.html
Love spotting the shooting locations across the lower mainland. Great content!
been working on my cornering mountain biking and stumbled on this video. i may not have a motor, but this was a helpful explanation of the counterleaning technique ive been learning for the trails. thanks!
Counterleaning on pedal bikes is also a way to create the turn without having to actually ‘use’ the handlebar steering - if I’m riding my road bike (slowly and pretty casually) with one or no hands, I pivot sideways from the hips to turn the bike - if my upper body leans right, to keep the centre of balance my hips go out left - putting the bike between my legs at an angle to the left, which makes it turn left. In this way you can turn very instinctively and quickly by shifting your upper body ‘out of’, and thus your hips ‘into’ the turn, with the wheel of the bike following you through.
The amount of reactions and video responses to this video from other youtubers is pretty amazing! It goes to show how good Ryan and FortNine develop their content!
Good job!
In short. Very good. :) Drop by buddy.
@Riding Halleys Comet except the UA-camrs that teach advanced motorcycle courses all agree with Ryan. At normal road speeds, there is rearly a need to lean. If you need to lean to make a curve on the road, you are riding recklessly. If you are going at a proper speed there is zero need to lean off the bike. Any UA-camr telling you differently is not looking out for your best interest. Now Ryan isn't say never lean, he's saying you don't have to and in alot of situations it's more beneficial to counter lean. Literally everything he says in this video is 100% accurate. Just because other creators are stuck in their ways and don't want to admit that leaning is only necessary when riding recklessly, doesn't mean Ryan isn't correct.
@Riding Halleys Comet and you ate more then welcome to continue to lean. But claiming people are crashing because they aren't leaning at normal highway speeds that don't actually require leaning is disingenuous and leads to people not improving. As well as causes more crashes and injuries. There are so many other factors that are going to affect your cornering before body position is. There are people that counter lean and still take the corner faster than people leaning into the corner.
This one got reactions because it was highly controversial amongst other experienced motorcyclists--and as presented here, potentially dangerous. If he made clear that counter leaning was just for lower speeds, would've been fine...but thinking back on this months later, I think he was provocative on purpose for the attention, but assuming viewers already know you can't do this at higher speeds is reckless imho.
@Riding Halleys Comet WTF?
Getting back into motorcycles after a while, it was nice to see this video. I know how important leaning and counterbalance is. Thanks for explaining how it "works" and the different methods.
Superb! You're getting exceptionally good at this stuff.
I ve watched this video a few times, love the info and logic in it. Now I can't help but notice that's its also the funniest and full of innuendo... :)) love your work and how you explain the motorcycle world. Big up & thanks.
I just finished motorcycle school and they taught us always to counter balance at lower speeds (under 30, or just in the city in general) but to lean with the bike when taking a corner at higher speeds.
“lean with” sounds like “neutral”. IMO only motoGP riders need to hang off. Hanging off got popular with moto-magazine writers making cool covers. Which is too bad because a counter lean and neutral body positions work so much better in real life, on real roads. Be safe and have fun.
@@dcxplant I agree! I've been riding for 30 years and recently got my wife into riding herself. She was asking me about "proper leaning" since she just got out of her MSF course and still had a million questions, so I had her follow behind me on a Can-Am Spyder while I slung her Rebel 500 AND my 1800 Goldwing through some extremely tight switch-backs. Neutral or counter-leaning was way faster than hanging off the inside of the bike.
That said, I totally understand why "proper" leaning would be better on a smooth track with predictable curves and twists and no obstacles to dodge. You see those guys on the track and they look like flowing water and are all synchronized. In the real world, emergency swerving, mid corner braking, and blind corners are everywhere.
@@dcxplant or most anyone who doesn't ride a touring/cruiser.
Get out into the mountains around where I live and all the road are extremely smooth and vary from tight to sweeping.
Leaning with and counter steering are the only way to take turns at the speeds sport bikes are capable of.
@@14scottross88 Counter steering yes, leaning no. As long as you dont want to race at the edge of you motorcycle capablities. Then please go to a closed circuit, anything else would be called reckless driving.
I see these kind of drivers every summer in the alps. And in the last 20 yrs I also saw around a dozens of them scraped from the pavement. On guy landed his bike in the middle of a tree in a corner. Funny sight. Never seen that before. He was dead of course.
Not totally true, as with all things in life, it depends! For example, entry speed, curvature of the turn, can necessitate a more aggressive body position. Just as a side note, telling people that they should limit their skill set because they most likely won’t need it is horrible advice. I live in Florida and it is shocking how many cruiser riders (and other type of motorcycle riders) cannot negotiate a turn and crash which means I will be in traffic for an extra hour (not annoying at all). A motorcycle is not a couch that you sit on in traffic, it is inherently dangerous, and you should be seeking to improve every time you ride. Learning how to ride a motorcycle at a high level can only be beneficial. I know we have a culture of mediocrity being widely accepted, but it is never okay, it will always lead to someone getting hurt. Especially on a motorcycle.
I love how almost all the videos end up by " THIS is scientifically better... But whatever, I'll do what I want anyway "
That's pretty much how the world works these days. ~RF9
Except they stated some logical fallacies and missed some key points about the physics of speed and counterleaning...
@@ExtremeDeathman more on this?
@@ExtremeDeathman V line, do i need to say more?
@@TheRealSykx v line on tarmac in traffic? Ain't gonna fly in southern California. Maybe the physics is why everyone is leaving... I should look into that.
Thanks a lot for the tip: I've improved my confidence, my control is by far better than before.
I Just love this guy!!! The way things are explained is simply superb!!!
Good stuff! I stand (lean) with your final comments. As a counter balance dirt biker, it's fun to lean to the inside when riding the dirt bikes on pavement sections and stay off the worn edges of the knobbies....and play moto GP. ;-)
@blancolirio Fancy running into you here, sir! :)
Always fun to see youtube topics (and channels) that are (apparently) not too related intertwined.
@@DrunkHog i have found that a large majority of aviation enthusiasts/pilots are also passionate about riding, also the other way around
@@StoneMX893 You are indeed quite right there.
Yes now that I think of it, I naturally lean the way the video is saying. I kind of prop myself up level with the road. I don't lean into the turn, you push the bike down into the turn
Smart. Thanks
Passed my riding test today, thanks to your counter lean idea it was effortless. Thanks a ton.
Yup
Hard to complete figure 8s without counter-leaning
Congrats man!
gratz!
Congrats! Be safe out there
Thank you, Joffrey Lannister for your cool and life saving tip. I knew you would turn up better as you grow up.
Learning a lot of interesting stuff on this channel while tears of laughter are runnin down my face 😂😂😂 Thank You! ❤
Leaning and counterleaning are just two different tools in the box: And we should train both methods. Neither is objectively "right".
In a parking lot or in tight traffic (or on your dirtbike in the trees), counterleaning is the way to go for all of the reasons in the video.
In a fast turn, counterleaning just INCREASES lean angle and moves mass toward the outside of the turn. This is the opposite of what a rider wants. Leaning puts more mass near the center of the turn, the lean angle decreases, traction is maintained, and vision through the turn is usually improved. Pushing the bike down and counterleaning in this situation is risky because you will reach the limit of traction and the limit of lean sooner for a given speed. Riders unnecessarily lowside like this all the time.
Agreed. Depends on the situation.
Was about to make this post but just went ahead and liked yours instead. This is exactly right. Motorcycles have a very distinct change in behavior above and below about 10-20 mph.
At low speeds, counter leaning allows the tracking of the tires to obtain minimum turning radius and therefore better maneuverability as well as quick changes from left to right. It also works well on dirt because dirt relies less on conventional friction and more on the paddle wheel effect of the tire knobbies and the sliding and packing up of dirt when cornering, it's completely different than pure tire friction. In the case of supermotos, they generally run on kart tracks and the corners are so sharp that they can't be taken with a fast sweeping line, so they have to almost slide it like on dirt.
On the flip side, ask any sportbike full-size track day instructor what causes the most non-collision wrecks and it will probably be someone using a counter-lean body position while taking a high speed corner and either scraping hard parts like pegs or getting to the edge of the tire and reducing the contact patch to the point the bike slips out. Wet conditions are another time you want to lean your body in in order to keep the bike upright as most siping is usually in the middle of the tire and your suspension works best when the bike is upright, thus increasing the odds of the tire staying in contact with the road when going over bumps.
This video also ignored elaborating on straight up riding, which is pretty much the ideal day to day riding when you're neither carving cones in a parking lot nor ripping turns at 100 mph at the limit.
The bottom line, motorcycles have some of the most complex and hard to understand physics of any ground-based vehicle and that's why so many people suck at riding them and wrecks are so common. People try to compensate with electronic aids and expensive tires, etc. instead of just putting in the effort to understand it and practice it in a parking lot until it's second nature.
Very well put. Some of the comments seem like they interpreted the video to be about how leaning into a turn makes you a try-hard while the sigma males just counter-lean anything. #Grindset
THIS!
@@ganuvien Speed of the corner means nothing, it's speed vs. how tight the corner is. Counter balancing will work fine to a point, but the key word is: to a point. You aren't losing traction because, in spite of what you may think, are probably only at 50% of what the bike is actually capable of. Only a track day will show you how wrong you are.
The writing on every video is so good, the tact y'all jam in these videos is amazing. Great video!
Best moto channel yet. Keep it up!
Thanks for putting that last bit in. I was starting to think I had a possessed bike or something. If I counter-steer, I can't lean as much to get around a corner; I scrape pegs. I learned that leaning with the bike allows it to stay upright more for tighter turning. It's how I have my Harley taking the Tail of the Dragon at near sportbike speeds. I first started riding the Harley with countersteer and found my pegs scraping at a mere 20-degree turn going 55mph. Once I got used to the heavier bike, leaning before the bike became second-nature and I can play on hairpins.
Boy... The attention you got with this video is stellar! And what's more it really brought the motorcycle UA-cam instructors together. I've seen at least five of the top producers jump in on this topic. Can only help make for better riders 👍
I was taught this way - ‘To push the bike away from me through a corner’’ and stay up right or even lean the other way. Appears to work for a reason, nice that Ryan has put it all in perspective now.
I watched this video about a year ago and I feel like it moved my riding skill forward as much as 1,000 road miles.
Great to see the guys improvement in presentation. First videos were a bit gringe but he didn't give up and now seems to be one of the most viewed motorcycle channels with interesting info.
I've always learned to ride with counterlean. I basically only ride on dirt and thats how I have learned from the start. But counterlean is not only a last ditch effort to save yourself on the track but it has saved me sometimes on single track. Counterlean, neutral, or normal lean there is always a situation for it and I'm grateful for this video because it clarified the technique of leaning.
Circumstantial is the word I love when it comes to debating on this issue. :D
Love that channel. Kinda my first comment on the theme I like. My point is it’s too complex and include so many details: Dynamics of braking right before turning + turning traction + surface state and changing grip spots for each tyre + tons of tech moments starting from oil and tyre temperature to humidity and what kind of chilli pepper you ate day ago. Bringing all in one makes you a Jedi who needs to fire a bomb into the heart of the Death Star.
absolutely amazing....tried it today.... loved it.... looks like the Malahat Highway where you made this video? Awesome stuff, makes me wish I paid more attention in Physics class but totally makes sense. I work as a firefighting pilot.... funny how there's no videos on how to do that on UA-cam....... oh well, the bike stuff is awesome. Thank you again!
Thanks for another excellent video! I never thought about which way to lean - started on dirt bikes and it always felt natural to lean 'with' the bike. You def sacrifice visibility, and thanks for making that point. Riding in the city we need all the visibility we can get so I'll be trying it out. Thanks for info!
Thank you! I have always felt so much more comfortable slightly counter leaning through the turns at the speed limit on the street but have forced myself to, not lean way out , but greatly bias my weight to the inside of the turn. I can’t wait to ride again and do it MY way (a.k.a. the right way for the street). The discussion this video kicked off with Motojitsu and MC Rider has also been really interesting. Great, great, great job Ryan!
Just found your channel loving these videos 🎉❤
This dude could make a video about anything and I'd enjoy watching it, dude's hilarious 😂
Bought a supermoto recently and I have been practicing my counter leaning after having made it a habit of leaning in. Great information Ryan, you explained it with simplicity and clarity
Can do both on a sumo without much difference in the final result. Usually just comes down to comfort. Check out: ua-cam.com/video/STKN8ELilCQ/v-deo.html&ab_channel=MikeonBikes
@@bmwm3man Yeah, I've seen that. It's just a matter of forming new habits in order to be more versatile and consistent with each technique.
Really difficult topic to explain because it is more on the feel and instincts of a rider.
For me this is my simplified analysis on this topic based on my experience:
- slow corner approach = counter balance
- average speed approach = neutral
- fast aproach = lean af
- evasive maneuvers = counter balance
--- but still depends on situation, terrain, and the bike 😆🤷
Amen
@Mia Harfe
What's AF?
@@goranlazarevic2613 ffs
fast approach leaning need to do evasion maneuver. What will u do?
@@jomonvsprince countersteer
Lovely !,. Beautifully explained and compiled !... Nice work !!
I ride a vmax. I discovered that it doesn’t take much leaning before the rear tire feels like it’s slipping, but if I lean over the tank and counter lean it does much better on curves
hi, I have just seen this video and having spent a lot of time as a Motorcycle instructor in the UK, where new riders have to Pass a multitude of tests including a Mod 1 high speed handling test, this form of riding is taught to new riders because it is the only safe way of controlling the bike and to be able to safely pass the tight U-turn and emergency avoidance section of the test. Also most instructors knew it is the only way to keep both the rider and the bike balanced without compromising vision and safety.
Try turning your bike around (u-turn) on a single lane UK or European road without moving your position to the outside of the bikes lean angle and you will probably not make it.
Different road widths and conditions are a factor in how a motorbike rider was trained, but the method in this video is spot on. Our country lanes are much narrower and have tighter turns than almost all racing circuits, but trying to corner like you are on a GP bike almost always puts you in the weeds or in al lot of cases in the UK off the side of a mountain (Lakes or Scotland etc) or in a ditch or river. - Most riders will run out of tyre (friction and grip) because the road surface is not as sticky as a race track, nor are the tyres designed for the bumps and undulations of a country road.
Also by counter-leaning, you are also inducing counter steering without realising it which helps the control of the bike. - E.g. to counter lean through a corner, the bike leans for example to the right. Now to counter lean your body, you naturally extend your right arm (by adjusting your shoulder position usually) which pushes your body over to the opposite direction to the bikes lean angle. This without you realising it adds in a small amount of counter steering at the bars and you will find yourself rounding corners more fluidly.
But one of the greatest advantages to counter leaning as outlined in the video is VISION, which is what you need while riding on public roads. One last point which can be missed - If you have a rider who is wary of leaning the bike because he/she feels like they are falling when the bike leans - Get them to counter lean - This fools the inner ear into thinking everything is under control because the head is mostly upright and the rider has a more level view of the road. The sense of falling diminishes and the rider becomes more confident.
In the UK we only have about 1.4 million motorbikes on the road at any one time (1% of road users) but we cover 4.4 BILLION miles with an average rider trip rate of 438 trips per year - Basically at least one trip a day per rider.
But accidents are still on the high side, and in 2020 there were 285 killed. Sounds bad, but it is out of a pool of 1.4 million doing 4.4 billion miles.
In the USA 14% of riders are killed which is extremely high. Which seems at odds with the generally slower speeds, wider roads and more cruiser style of bike in comparison to the Hyper and sports bike option a lot of UK and European riders choose.
Adventure bikes,. tourers and cruisers are starting to come into favour, but its the latter that has been the most popular in these parts for quite some time.
But - Anything to reduce these figures for all riders in every country is a help. and counter leaning with the induced counter steering it brings as well as improved vision is a step in the right direction. Great Video
Thank you for sharing Sir.
Great write up. thanks
I've seen many motos for sale that are only a few years old and only traveled a few hundred miles. Great bargains, indeed.
My sport-tourer was 3 years old and had only 1100 miles! The rear disk looks like it overheated, so he surely didn't know the importance of the massive calipers up front with 150hp on tap!! That would be worse than drum brakes!
My hypothesis for so many bikes purchased, but unused is that the owners did not even know about counter-steering. Most bicyclists don't know either, but with so little weight, the ignorance is not life ending like it can be on a moto.
What I see of USA riders doesn't exactly fit your description. I see plenty of people who mostly obey speed limits and traffic laws, avoid risks, probably ride a cruiser, etc BUT I also see plenty of risk taking behavior. And yes the risk-takers often are on a bike whose design and appearance says "I like to go fast". And most of the accidents ( I think) involve the riders who take risks.
Have a citation for 14% of US riders being killed? That seems extremely high.
@@dwent55 i was thinking same. perhaps it is not a yearly figure, just that number over their lifetime, but that would be hard to calculate
I started counter leaning intuitively after trying different methods, it feels much more stable and you get a clearer view through the corner
Thanks man, this video helped me a lot. I got a Supermoto and was counter leaning on instinct, but was wondering if I'm putting myself in some kind of danger. Good to know that's what you kinda do in city pace.
Thanks for the great into!! Recently bought a big old 1998 Harley Road King Classic and the heavy frame has really changed how I drive and I take corners a lot slower than I probably should but this counterweight idea should help me out greatly. I will have to take it out and practice doing this soon!!
My dad did trials and had other bikes over the years…
When I learned to ride On the road the basics I learnt in trials really helped with confidence being off balance and tilting the bike away from me. Can’t recommend trials enough if you’ve got kids and you want them to learn the basics at slow speeds, invaluable fun!
I've always leaned at higher speeds, and counter balanced at lower speeds generally. Though, it does depend on your particular application in that instance as always.
Yeah I noticed slow speed maneuvering was astonishingly easier when staying upright (i.e. counterleaning, i.e. moving the bike alone and not my body) and obviously knew (and experimented) that leaning in at high speed gave me more ground clearance to avoid the foot pegs scraping and also enabled a tighter turns.
But I never knew exactly the logic of why or how even though it's pretty obvious when seen explained in this video.
The bike alone can be moved a lot faster than the whole of my damn non-Shakira bodyweight.
I dunno, I always counterlean, it just feels right.
well ofc since at lower speeds gravity beats centripetal force and u go down. at higer speed centripetal is stronger than gravity so u gotta lean not to end up at the side of the road. very simple.
just love this channel
In classic bike racing, we hang off so the exhaust or even frame rail doesnt touch down, which would make cornering even more interesting than expected! Obv, it also helps corner speed, & keeps you more on the fat part of the tyre for grip.
On the road the counterbalance method is less effort & more comfortable & most riders don't ever need to get their knee down to go fast.
I'm too old to ride but I still find riding analysis very enjoyable. Motorcycling, racing and touring provided great pleasure all throughout my life.
This FJR guy always learns something new from your channel and always laughs in the process. Thank you!
This is what makes riding so exciting! Lots of choices as you ride. Never boring.
Explained, we all need to know this to ride well and safe. Good job.