I'd suggest making a video on the difference in driving characteristics between a 1.5 way and 2 way diff. Including the differences in how that effects your ability to turn (fwd AND rwd). Seen more than a few guys pissed at their car because they made bad diff decisions and can't make it through a turn, haha
Front wheel drive tip: If you're trying to get up a snowy hill and having trouble going up forwards, try reversing up the hill instead (if conditions allow, ie not on a busy public road). By doing so, as you begin to accelerate up the hill, you shift the cars weight onto the front drive axle. Also reverse gear is often the lowest gear ratio available in an unmodified car. This has worked for me many times trying to make it up steep snowy driveways.
Exactly how I got out of a tricky situation seeing some friends who live on the bottom end of crescent. Had to get car dug out first, then turned car round and reversed up the hill no problem, where other cars had struggled to get up the hill, which was about 1in3 and about 400m to top of hill.
A good idea. But not a bright idea. When you're climbing a offroad obstacle. You want to be stable and being able to drive safely. It's all about the tires that makes a big difference in offroading. All terrain tires, Ok. Mud tires, strongly recommend...
My 2000 Jetta VR6 had the fuel cut traction control. Stalled out getting out of some loose gravel, and as soon as I killed traction I made it out no problem.
On a square left or right you’re able to carry more speed with the scandinavian flick. But on a sharper corner like lets say a hairpin, the handbrake gives you a smaller turning radius, which makes it perfect while a scandinavian flick will give you understeer most likely.
Re: Differentials and Traction Control Explained I would love to see/hear more in-depth info/analysis on differentials. Especially visualization demo on full-on pro rally diffs and utilization. Very cool stuff. Thank you!
I've always been interested in cars but never deep enough to know how all the parts of them work. These videos are extremely interesting and informative, definitely gonna be binging these
Great video! Thanks for this excellent refresh on what people should know about their cars. I live in Canada because of our rugged weather, I sincerely think that all car should come with a limited slip differential either for front wheel drive or rear wheel drive cars. Open diff or traction control is for moderate weather and it is inadequate for what we have here. I think car companies should make the effort standardize limited slip differential on all models coming in Canada. Keep up the great work!
about FWD cars at 1:51 with Traction control that cuts throttle, i believe the 10 and 10.5 gen Corollas 2009-2013 have this, and possibly 11th gen Corollas as well 2014-2017, they are rally-able as well and quite fun in the snow/ice! :)
Got here via googling to see if there is any chance that I could understand what Chase Elliot was telling Junior about why his driving style doesn't work with the Next Gen car. Suspected that it would be over my head. I was right. This fellow is crazy smart and incredibly knowledgeable. Suggesting the UA-cam animations is fabulous but my head already hurts too much and I don't like having my shortcomings pointed out so clearly. 🙂 Great demo and explanations.
Should have shown a WK GC with QDII 3x ELSDs.. probably the best real 4x4 system a production vehicle has ever had. Great video as always! Keep em coming.
I am always impressed when a locked/welded rear end, Toyota 22RE, in 2 wheel, bouncing off rev limiter, goes more places and most other trucks in 4-wheel.. on half bald street tires!
My ST is at the dealer now to get my Quaife installed. I hear the LSD improve braking as it evens out the slipping between the wheels, not to mention cornering. Hopefully it is worth it.
@@Teamoneilrally Just got the car back. Have only driven it a bit on the street so far but it seems like it was worth it. The car tracks dead center on acceleration. It feels like the steering wants to pull to the center while driving down the road, and you can feel it pull to the inside on corners also. Definitely a lot more grip. My main concern was a sketchy feeling on hard acceleration all the way up to 4th gear, especially on a back road with a bad surface and wheel spin on wet roads.
i put a trackloc in my rear (extra clutch pack), and an Eaton Elocker in the front. best upgrade ever! (also installed solid axle shafts instead of the Central Axle Disconnect)
I have a 2015 Toyota Tacoma 2wd.. it came with traction control and auto LSD. It was okay. I installed a geared style limited slip, and a little bit lower gear ratio... The combination of the torsion and the traction control is amazing......
Great vid! I have a Cherokee Trailhawk on my channel which has the locking rear diff. Also if you turn off TC it will still activate the brakes to act as limited slip.
great video. i had an 98 grand cherokee 5.9 (with the 249 transfer case replaced with a 242) that was essentially right wheel drive. it almost never spun the left wheels, very rarely the rear it would. no traction control at all. every time it snowed i would be crabbing down the street at an angle. i currently have an 03 bmw 325 XI which is nearly the exact same 4wd system, with its mechanical new venture transfer case and all, but the bmw has traction control that applies brakes. that works very well and will get all 4 wheels going when necessary, but its very true about losing momentum. i have on slight occasion had to turn off traction control to get a couple of wheels spinning better to get me up a hill or something.
@@Teamoneilrally most probably not. Traction control has a temperature estimation. If estimated brake disc temperature goes above limit it shuts down brake action. At least all the system do this I worked on.
@@K0nst4nt1n96 regarding brake temeratures which is the subject no. There is no problem with power cut. In genral it can be a problem but it is a more complicated issue. You can buy many cars with switchable traction control.
Did a land rover experience the other day, one thing i can say is traction control, haldex and a £60k optioned out basic car is phenomenally capable when you want to drive on just 2 wheels! Took a little while to comprehend the 'give it more accelerator' of the guide!
Absolutely AWD-some. Thanks for a well-spoken and clearly shown demonstration. My old '03 AWD Highlander has a great AWD system for roads - never gets sideways, but it's craptastic for off-roading. :-(
thanks for the vid! there are a lot of good information here. example i always thought that the open diff tends to spin one side of the wheel because the weight is not equal in the car, now i know the other reasons and good to learn is better to off traction control when going uphill i snow
1:53 the Chrysler 300 has that system. It wouldn’t go forward on slick conditions like I’ve, so I had to turn off the traction control in the winter time. It took too long to launch even if I go pedal to the metal.
Pretty sure the 13 honda fits traction control worked by cutting throttle. It was a pita with the manual if you didn't just power through it the car tended to stall when trying to start out on snow/ice. These vids are great, thanks!
Top stuff keep it coming! This also makes me sure about having some sort of locking rear diff on my old Impreza. It's really hard to find solid information about whether my specific model should have or not, some say open some say viscous.
I would love to the RS hooked up. I have one and I'd be curious to see how the different drive modes effect it if they do at all. If i remember correctly the awd system overdrives the rear wheels faster than the fronts so that could be interesting but I think it's only slight so you probably wouldn't be able to see it from just looking. My guess is with the 2016-17 RS which has brake based torque vectoring up front you would spin all 4 wheels with the fronts kinda twitching like the 3rd fiesta with both rear wheels spinning the same speed but possibly different based on traction levels and the 2018 RS with a quaife diff spinning all the tires the same as the 16/17 but without the twitchyness.
My 2wd tacoma has what I think is a nice mix of systems. During regular driving with the traction control on, its a system where it cuts power when the rear spins. If you press the trac off button, it turns the power cutting off and has the brake actuated rear lsd (Auto LSD on the dash). If you hold the button for 5 more seconds it turns all of these off and it doesn't touch the brakes
In any two wheel drive car with an open dif, once you start spinning on snow instead of giving pure throttle and to to squeeze it all out of 1 tire, wouldn't applying left foot braking and becoming your own traction control be more efficient? Plus being an added bonus of not having a computer tell you how to drive, and making an open differential spin both tires. I would also love to see more modern cars hooked to the jeep like you talked about at the end of the video. Hope I can come see you guys soon!!
Absolutely! You can use LFB to stop wheelspin when you're accelerating, and when you're trying to slow down on ice you can keep a little gas on and LFB to avoid wheel lock up.
@vibratingstring I have never driven a Camry or elentra so I can only react in general. If you mean pump through as I understand it then no you can not increase brake pressure through a closed valve. The only possibility is that abs also wanted to increase pressure. That's why it's important to push the pedal even when it is vibrating. On really slippery (or polished ice on which we test our systems) ice the slip curve is not too steep so if you overbrake without abs you do not loose much but definitely loose some traction. Try to disable abs , @teamoneil has a video about it, and measure in same conditions with and without it. Regarding TCS switch off it depends on how the manufacturer wants it but usually we only disable engine control. So yes in this case you are in charge of "sum" wheel slip if it is too extensive just let off throttle. Brake action remains to have the "differential" effect.
So much for the Classic Jeep Cherokee. I always thought they had some magical 4x4. Turns out you get to open diffs with a manual xfer case. I can see why someone would add a limited slip rear.
As you explained around 12:30 the only way i get out of my garage ramp when it snows is to turn of the ESP of my CLK esle i keep sliding and sliding and sliding without going up the ramp. I manage to climb it really easy without the ESP by just having the car doing exactly what i want it to do.
Wow awesome video, very interesting ! I was hoping to see a mitsubishi lancer on there with active centre diff and active yaw control. Would love to see active diffs explained like on world rally cars through the decades.
My mk5 Jetta has the TC that will cut power to the throttle it’s very annoying in winter have to turn it off because it’s manual but on dry asphalt it hooks up pretty good
Torsen works like this: If you had the rear left wheel on the ground and the rear right wheel in the air you would only spin the right wheel in the air. If you applied brakes while on throttle THEN it would transition power to the other wheel. They are typically intended for tarmac use because of this. On tarmac they give a really cool gradual increase of power transition.
Torsen diff is considered intermediate lsd to cater towards mild racing or sport road driving...because it will reat like normal open diff when 1 of the tyre floating in the air.. the weaker type of lsd is viscous coupling...using viscous fluid when slipping, fhe fluid reacts and thicken to grip the diff and transfer the torque equally...downside is total amount of torque can be transferred is way lower than torsen lsd... For maximum lsd performance the clutch pack lsd (1way, 1.5 way, 2 way) is considered ultimate lsd fit for motorsport use...(or welded diff for cheap drift hack) 😂
Hi Team Oneill. Thanks for the videos. Can u make a video about lsd braking lock and lsd preload? What tuning on bumpy roads ör grippy roads. I read a lot of stuff but im sure u will describe it beter...
anyways turn on to my street when entering a residential street I always hit the all-wheel lock. I came to my alleyway which has had some melting going on in the last few days of snow yesterday. So little islands and slush. At the alleyway I had a big puddle deep etc. so i was already in the all-wheel lock and i pushed the button thinking i was turning it on. went forward left front wheel up on an island and the right front down at an angle now getting traction moving up a good incline both right and left front tires meet ice and snow at the top rear wheels to follow...then I realize I did not have the all-wheel lock on. It griped pretty well surprisingly. Curious is that thing? I like to think of the all-wheel lock bracing everything keeping everything tight. if i had the lock on would I have angled in the puddle as I did or would the four-wheel lock have kept up and found another way through?. I always feel like with the all-wheel lock-in that situation the vehicle has to twist more without the help of the all-wheel lock. Also, curious e traction control is that how I was able to ease through so well thinking that I had the lock on but the traction control actually giving torque to the rear anyway. Saw the jeep ch at the end there have an all wheel lock...like mine except as I explained mine was off when ''i thought it was on ....
so if i have an open diff in the back would applying the handbrake a bit make both the wheels spin? and does that also count for the normal brakes in front?
would like to see something on how differentials affect braking by gearing down. if it is a manual transmission does changing gears offer any advantage?
So my 2005 Toyota Tundra has a limited slip differential. Now... It doesn't work, effectively making it an open diff. I'm really trying to get it fixed since an LSD is basically a godsend in Wisconsin winters.
Can you help with light braking if one wheel on your open diff is slipping? I have open diff fwd and i heard that some offroad guys use the brakes on difficult tracks.
so for 4wd vs awd, is the 4wd's transfer case like a welded center diff? why do you get spinning corners with 4wd and spinning same-sides with awd? (white jeep vs red subaru)
Great video. Thanks. I would like to see a modern 4wd car with adjustable TCS . Like off road mode or rock crawling mode or winter or whatever the car maker calls it.
How about a Honda Element AWD. I have one, and it is awesome in general, but really good in snow and ice. Will it rally? Is it allowed in the rules? Its insurance designation is a station wagon which is great on insurance, and I believe allows it in the rules.
Video idea: Is it worth upgrading an open diff to an lsd for a fwd or rwd car, if the vehicle is driven in winter conditions? In a fwd open diff vehicle, can some of the torque applied to the slipping wheel be sent to the other wheel by lightly pressing the brake?
That would be an interesting one, basically can you manually do what the traction control does? My hypothesis is that applying the brakes would slow the spinning wheel but not enough to get the wheel with too much grip going. Now somebody needs to test this.
You can definitely left foot brake to correct for wheelspin and force an open diff to transfer power more evenly. Basically you're deleting the "path of least resistance" by applying fairly equal resistance to both tires. With a FWD just remember the brakes are also applied to the rear wheels as well, they'll be dragging a little so it's a 2 steps forward one step back thing again. In a 4WD with open diffs front and rear this can be VERY useful off road BUT when you do it too often / aggressively you'll end up breaking some teeth off the spider gears in the diff... Or a U-Joint... Or shear an axle shaft... Or the ring and pinion...
Yes you can install a Quaife diff just like the one we put in the bright green ST in the video. The ST comes stock with an open diff and traction control, and you can see what the quaife does in the video. There are more aggressive plate diffs available as well, but they're less street-drivable and harder on the axles and everything else.
10:30 IIRC Do all STI models disconnect the center diff when the hand brake is pulled? Or is this only true with the models that have the mechanically controlled center diff?
I believe its only the '04-'05 models. They have an electronically controlled diff that unlocks fully when the Ebrake is pulled. The '06+ models have the same thing but they also have a mechanical differential to prevent fully unlocking. Pull the handbrake in an 05 sti in the snow and you can do a fwd burnout lol
Do you guys have any write ups or videos showing how you setup the wrx with the centre lock, ebrake and front diff ect. Really want to do this to my car, but not quite sure where to start. Also deleting abs on these cars which fuse do you guys pull there is quite a few and I'm not sure if some are running other things as well
The STI has limited slip diffs front and rear, which is an excellent setup for rally. The WRX only has a limited slip in the rear, which is still pretty great, but only 2008 and older. In 2009 the WRX got an open rear diff and traction control... Booo
Second time watching the video; still great! But I have a new question. I've been practicing left foot breaking in my 2000 5speed honda accord. Since it's an open diff, are both wheels still spinning when I'm applying brake with the left foot and turning or just one wheel?
Awesome! Yes you can definitely ride the brakes to keep one tire from spinning and force the diff to turn both tires with more equal power. It may not be exactly 50-50 left-right but you can definitely keep it from going 100-0.
@@Teamoneilrally OMG thank you for the reply! I will definitely be signing up for some lessons in the future when I'm finished school. Best wishes from Canada!
The center diff is rarely completely open, even a viscous center diff will spin both front and rear driveshafts pretty well (unless it's badly worn out)
When you brought out the Transit I laughed because I had one of these vans for work and know how much they suck in the snow!!! That thing would get stuck on wet pavement.... No joke!!
have you guys ever checked out these Val-racing Russian R160 LSDs on eBay? Pretty curious if they are any good (for a Vermont street/dirt daily ripper anyway, not a real rally car) . They are less than $400 shipped. If I buy one, do you guys do installs?
05 and newer STIs have the torsen type LSDs... They're great! I just learned the normal WRXs switched to open rear diffs (here at least) in the '08 and newer models, same year Toyota stopped offering limited slip diffs in the back of their trucks as well. Sad sad world.
Yeah I guess it's down to cost and what the average car buyer wants and needs. I was surprised the wrx wasn't spinning all fours but hey it's been educational! Thanks for the awesome videos and taking time to reply!
@@Teamoneilrally It would be great if you'd make a video showing how torsen LSD can't do anything when one wheel is in the air, so people woudn't think they are invincible with torsen. Actually I got stuck two times this winter in deep snow in my Hawkeye STI with only two wheels spinning. Too bad didn't tried to use breaks, would be interesting to know if it really helps.
I'd suggest making a video on the difference in driving characteristics between a 1.5 way and 2 way diff. Including the differences in how that effects your ability to turn (fwd AND rwd). Seen more than a few guys pissed at their car because they made bad diff decisions and can't make it through a turn, haha
Front wheel drive tip: If you're trying to get up a snowy hill and having trouble going up forwards, try reversing up the hill instead (if conditions allow, ie not on a busy public road). By doing so, as you begin to accelerate up the hill, you shift the cars weight onto the front drive axle. Also reverse gear is often the lowest gear ratio available in an unmodified car. This has worked for me many times trying to make it up steep snowy driveways.
It also does better donuts ;)
Exactly how I got out of a tricky situation seeing some friends who live on the bottom end of crescent. Had to get car dug out first, then turned car round and reversed up the hill no problem, where other cars had struggled to get up the hill, which was about 1in3 and about 400m to top of hill.
No, reverse down the hill and go another way, because the problem is some idiot that got stuck uphill from you.
Was wondering, does Traction Control work the same in reverse on most/all cars that have it?
A good idea. But not a bright idea. When you're climbing a offroad obstacle. You want to be stable and being able to drive safely. It's all about the tires that makes a big difference in offroading. All terrain tires, Ok. Mud tires, strongly recommend...
Good video... I was just waiting to see the shovel get snatched under that tire.
Love this video.
It's the best visual demonstration I've seen of the different differential setups.
My 2000 Jetta VR6 had the fuel cut traction control. Stalled out getting out of some loose gravel, and as soon as I killed traction I made it out no problem.
Do a video on how to make car oversteer/understeer more with suspencion setup. And all in all talk about setting up suspencion
Peeter Piip they have done one before
ua-cam.com/video/EDmHpxgMxFU/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/EDmHpxgMxFU/v-deo.html
Just found out traction control on my Ford Focus SE Hatchback sucks when starting from a dead stop in a snowbank. Thanks a bunch! Now I know why.
guys you did a really great job gathering all this cars in one place. Thanks a lot for perfect illustration
What a great demonstration-based explanation of differentials! Thank you.
Great video - does exactly what it says on the tin! Keep it up!
Can you guys do a video on setting up a budget friendly car like this Impreza? Covering all the basics i.e suspension and alignment, wheel/tire, etc.
Make a video on scandinavian flick vs just handbrake turn. What's faster on a loose traction track.
depends on the corner, Scandinavian flick more predictable.
On a square left or right you’re able to carry more speed with the scandinavian flick. But on a sharper corner like lets say a hairpin, the handbrake gives you a smaller turning radius, which makes it perfect while a scandinavian flick will give you understeer most likely.
Pet3r38 thanks. That's what I wanted to know
The handbrake unsettles the car at high speed leaving little room for a decent recovery. Best used for low speed and tight hairpin turns.
Re: Differentials and Traction Control Explained
I would love to see/hear more in-depth info/analysis on differentials. Especially visualization demo on full-on pro rally diffs and utilization.
Very cool stuff. Thank you!
Thank you. It's good to see the differences first hand.
I've always been interested in cars but never deep enough to know how all the parts of them work. These videos are extremely interesting and informative, definitely gonna be binging these
Always liked this channel. The fact you run XJs took it up to the next level. Great videos. Great explanations and demonstrations.
Great video! Thanks for this excellent refresh on what people should know about their cars. I live in Canada because of our rugged weather, I sincerely think that all car should come with a limited slip differential either for front wheel drive or rear wheel drive cars. Open diff or traction control is for moderate weather and it is inadequate for what we have here. I think car companies should make the effort standardize limited slip differential on all models coming in Canada. Keep up the great work!
about FWD cars at 1:51 with Traction control that cuts throttle, i believe the 10 and 10.5 gen Corollas 2009-2013 have this, and possibly 11th gen Corollas as well 2014-2017, they are rally-able as well and quite fun in the snow/ice! :)
Got here via googling to see if there is any chance that I could understand what Chase Elliot was telling Junior about why his driving style doesn't work with the Next Gen car. Suspected that it would be over my head. I was right. This fellow is crazy smart and incredibly knowledgeable. Suggesting the UA-cam animations is fabulous but my head already hurts too much and I don't like having my shortcomings pointed out so clearly. 🙂 Great demo and explanations.
Awesome demonstration, this video explains everything so well.
You guys rock! I'm hoping to come for a lesson in the fall.
Should have shown a WK GC with QDII 3x ELSDs.. probably the best real 4x4 system a production vehicle has ever had.
Great video as always! Keep em coming.
Great video! Especially helpful for snowy states like Minnesota
I am always impressed when a locked/welded rear end, Toyota 22RE, in 2 wheel, bouncing off rev limiter, goes more places and most other trucks in 4-wheel.. on half bald street tires!
My ST is at the dealer now to get my Quaife installed. I hear the LSD improve braking as it evens out the slipping between the wheels, not to mention cornering. Hopefully it is worth it.
You'll be very happy, especially on gravel or snow the difference is huge.
@@Teamoneilrally Just got the car back. Have only driven it a bit on the street so far but it seems like it was worth it. The car tracks dead center on acceleration. It feels like the steering wants to pull to the center while driving down the road, and you can feel it pull to the inside on corners also. Definitely a lot more grip. My main concern was a sketchy feeling on hard acceleration all the way up to 4th gear, especially on a back road with a bad surface and wheel spin on wet roads.
i put a trackloc in my rear (extra clutch pack), and an Eaton Elocker in the front. best upgrade ever! (also installed solid axle shafts instead of the Central Axle Disconnect)
I have a 2015 Toyota Tacoma 2wd.. it came with traction control and auto LSD. It was okay. I installed a geared style limited slip, and a little bit lower gear ratio... The combination of the torsion and the traction control is amazing......
It would be cool if you guys could do a video on sliding/driving a pickup truck fast on loose surfaces
I fucking love this channel. Thanks for making all this high quality information available for free.
Great vid! I have a Cherokee Trailhawk on my channel which has the locking rear diff. Also if you turn off TC it will still activate the brakes to act as limited slip.
great video. i had an 98 grand cherokee 5.9 (with the 249 transfer case replaced with a 242) that was essentially right wheel drive. it almost never spun the left wheels, very rarely the rear it would. no traction control at all. every time it snowed i would be crabbing down the street at an angle. i currently have an 03 bmw 325 XI which is nearly the exact same 4wd system, with its mechanical new venture transfer case and all, but the bmw has traction control that applies brakes. that works very well and will get all 4 wheels going when necessary, but its very true about losing momentum. i have on slight occasion had to turn off traction control to get a couple of wheels spinning better to get me up a hill or something.
Another huge cons of electronic differential is the brake fading. I guess they didn`t talk about it because of where they are.
SOLID POINT we forgot to mention. You can get the brakes smoking without ever touching the brake pedal. I sense a video coming on...
@@Teamoneilrally most probably not. Traction control has a temperature estimation. If estimated brake disc temperature goes above limit it shuts down brake action. At least all the system do this I worked on.
@@gaborb It doesnt just shut down brake action but power too. That is a problem :D
@@K0nst4nt1n96 regarding brake temeratures which is the subject no. There is no problem with power cut. In genral it can be a problem but it is a more complicated issue. You can buy many cars with switchable traction control.
Simply the best vidéo in real condition I've never s'en.... 👍
Beautifully explained
Did a land rover experience the other day, one thing i can say is traction control, haldex and a £60k optioned out basic car is phenomenally capable when you want to drive on just 2 wheels! Took a little while to comprehend the 'give it more accelerator' of the guide!
Hello from Finland. Yes you are pro. Keep going, Cheers
Absolutely AWD-some. Thanks for a well-spoken and clearly shown demonstration. My old '03 AWD Highlander has a great AWD system for roads - never gets sideways, but it's craptastic for off-roading. :-(
Great demo and explanations
thanks for the vid! there are a lot of good information here.
example i always thought that the open diff tends to spin one side of the wheel because the weight is not equal in the car, now i know the other reasons
and good to learn is better to off traction control when going uphill i snow
It'd be interesting to monitor brake temperature while all 4 wheels are spinning on that Jeep!
Hey,
I love your videos. 👌👍
Toyota blade 2012 has that mechanism of cutting off throttle when the wheels are spinning and the car is stuck.
Nice video! it's really awesome to show us all the situations!
1:53 the Chrysler 300 has that system. It wouldn’t go forward on slick conditions like I’ve, so I had to turn off the traction control in the winter time. It took too long to launch even if I go pedal to the metal.
Pretty sure the 13 honda fits traction control worked by cutting throttle. It was a pita with the manual if you didn't just power through it the car tended to stall when trying to start out on snow/ice.
These vids are great, thanks!
Top stuff keep it coming! This also makes me sure about having some sort of locking rear diff on my old Impreza. It's really hard to find solid information about whether my specific model should have or not, some say open some say viscous.
Awesome visuals, great explanations!
Would love to see a similar video showing different makes and marketed awd systems
I would love to the RS hooked up. I have one and I'd be curious to see how the different drive modes effect it if they do at all. If i remember correctly the awd system overdrives the rear wheels faster than the fronts so that could be interesting but I think it's only slight so you probably wouldn't be able to see it from just looking. My guess is with the 2016-17 RS which has brake based torque vectoring up front you would spin all 4 wheels with the fronts kinda twitching like the 3rd fiesta with both rear wheels spinning the same speed but possibly different based on traction levels and the 2018 RS with a quaife diff spinning all the tires the same as the 16/17 but without the twitchyness.
My 2wd tacoma has what I think is a nice mix of systems. During regular driving with the traction control on, its a system where it cuts power when the rear spins. If you press the trac off button, it turns the power cutting off and has the brake actuated rear lsd (Auto LSD on the dash). If you hold the button for 5 more seconds it turns all of these off and it doesn't touch the brakes
"One wheel drive" haha that cracked me up!! Genius:D
This test wast supercool, nice to visualize it. Some rally cars would be nice.
To funny I was just talking to him about that Transit. Great content as usual.
Nothing better than a tutorial that uses your exact car! 🚗💨💨💨👏😎
Can you explain how a torson differential works in this case and how good is it for off road???
This is exactly why I'm happy my 2017 STi has 3 LSDs and a coupling so I can lock those up. Genuine traction.
Wow! Better than 90% offroad 4x4!
Great video. You should've mention Subaru STI and also perform the test with it. STI has front LSD among others.
In any two wheel drive car with an open dif, once you start spinning on snow instead of giving pure throttle and to to squeeze it all out of 1 tire, wouldn't applying left foot braking and becoming your own traction control be more efficient? Plus being an added bonus of not having a computer tell you how to drive, and making an open differential spin both tires. I would also love to see more modern cars hooked to the jeep like you talked about at the end of the video. Hope I can come see you guys soon!!
Absolutely! You can use LFB to stop wheelspin when you're accelerating, and when you're trying to slow down on ice you can keep a little gas on and LFB to avoid wheel lock up.
@@Teamoneilrally and exactly what traction control does. Average driver won't beat it. Of course average TCS is not for racing and racers.
@vibratingstring I have never driven a Camry or elentra so I can only react in general. If you mean pump through as I understand it then no you can not increase brake pressure through a closed valve. The only possibility is that abs also wanted to increase pressure. That's why it's important to push the pedal even when it is vibrating. On really slippery (or polished ice on which we test our systems) ice the slip curve is not too steep so if you overbrake without abs you do not loose much but definitely loose some traction. Try to disable abs , @teamoneil has a video about it, and measure in same conditions with and without it. Regarding TCS switch off it depends on how the manufacturer wants it but usually we only disable engine control. So yes in this case you are in charge of "sum" wheel slip if it is too extensive just let off throttle. Brake action remains to have the "differential" effect.
So much for the Classic Jeep Cherokee. I always thought they had some magical 4x4. Turns out you get to open diffs with a manual xfer case. I can see why someone would add a limited slip rear.
As you explained around 12:30 the only way i get out of my garage ramp when it snows is to turn of the ESP of my CLK esle i keep sliding and sliding and sliding without going up the ramp. I manage to climb it really easy without the ESP by just having the car doing exactly what i want it to do.
Great video :) Would love a video about the Focus RS as well.
Wow awesome video, very interesting ! I was hoping to see a mitsubishi lancer on there with active centre diff and active yaw control. Would love to see active diffs explained like on world rally cars through the decades.
I love how you're living it while explaining the partial braking of traction control (~12:00) 😂
Seriously though, great vid 👍
I'd love this test with a recent audi Quattro and recent X-drive car . Great job !
they will fail as well. Most xdrives/quattro got open diffs
So my car is rwd and has a traction control button... if i turn it off will both wheels spin even if its an open diff?
My mk5 Jetta has the TC that will cut power to the throttle it’s very annoying in winter have to turn it off because it’s manual but on dry asphalt it hooks up pretty good
Wow great video! Very well done.
Awesome vid Wyatt 👍
Information on a Torsen LSD? How are they different from a "traditional" LSD?
Torsen works like this: If you had the rear left wheel on the ground and the rear right wheel in the air you would only spin the right wheel in the air. If you applied brakes while on throttle THEN it would transition power to the other wheel. They are typically intended for tarmac use because of this. On tarmac they give a really cool gradual increase of power transition.
ua-cam.com/video/JEiSTzK-A2A/v-deo.html
Works great under throttle, no brake application needed to power both wheels.
Torsen is short for Torque Sensing. There are a few different types of Torsen diffs.
Victor Kojenov I aways heard it as tortion, I didn't know it stood for that
Torsen diff is considered intermediate lsd to cater towards mild racing or sport road driving...because it will reat like normal open diff when 1 of the tyre floating in the air..
the weaker type of lsd is viscous coupling...using viscous fluid when slipping, fhe fluid reacts and thicken to grip the diff and transfer the torque equally...downside is total amount of torque can be transferred is way lower than torsen lsd...
For maximum lsd performance the clutch pack lsd (1way, 1.5 way, 2 way) is considered ultimate lsd fit for motorsport use...(or welded diff for cheap drift hack) 😂
Hi Team Oneill. Thanks for the videos. Can u make a video about lsd braking lock and lsd preload? What tuning on bumpy roads ör grippy roads. I read a lot of stuff but im sure u will describe it beter...
I have a 2000 subaru impreza. Can you do it with a 5 speed version? I would love to see how mine handles
Could you do a comparison with the fiesta - poor man's traction control vs regular traction control ?
Great info and explanation as always!! Amazing buddy
Quick question about the white XJ. Did I see V-8 ZJ CV Joint Axle Shafts in the front axle?
anyways turn on to my street when entering a residential street I always hit the all-wheel lock. I came to my alleyway which has had some melting going on in the last few days of snow yesterday. So little islands and slush. At the alleyway I had a big puddle deep etc. so i was already in the all-wheel lock and i pushed the button thinking i was turning it on. went forward left front wheel up on an island and the right front down at an angle now getting traction moving up a good incline both right and left front tires meet ice and snow at the top rear wheels to follow...then I realize I did not have the all-wheel lock on. It griped pretty well surprisingly. Curious is that thing? I like to think of the all-wheel lock bracing everything keeping everything tight. if i had the lock on would I have angled in the puddle as I did or would the four-wheel lock have kept up and found another way through?. I always feel like with the all-wheel lock-in that situation the vehicle has to twist more without the help of the all-wheel lock. Also, curious e traction control is that how I was able to ease through so well thinking that I had the lock on but the traction control actually giving torque to the rear anyway. Saw the jeep ch at the end there have an all wheel lock...like mine except as I explained mine was off when ''i thought it was on ....
Great Demo.
It would be awesome to see a crane scale / pull scale to measure effective pull force between the different models. Follow-up video maybe?
so if i have an open diff in the back would applying the handbrake a bit make both the wheels spin? and does that also count for the normal brakes in front?
would like to see something on how differentials affect braking by gearing down. if it is a manual transmission does changing gears offer any advantage?
So my 2005 Toyota Tundra has a limited slip differential. Now... It doesn't work, effectively making it an open diff. I'm really trying to get it fixed since an LSD is basically a godsend in Wisconsin winters.
What about a Toyota Camry Trd AWD 2021? Is it a great awd car and will it rally? And which car brands have reliable sedans w/ awd and possibly a lsd?
Can you help with light braking if one wheel on your open diff is slipping? I have open diff fwd and i heard that some offroad guys use the brakes on difficult tracks.
I really want to get a limited slip diff for my e92 some day, winter is a pain sometimes.. thank god it has a bolted version
so for 4wd vs awd, is the 4wd's transfer case like a welded center diff? why do you get spinning corners with 4wd and spinning same-sides with awd? (white jeep vs red subaru)
Great video. Thanks. I would like to see a modern 4wd car with adjustable TCS . Like off road mode or rock crawling mode or winter or whatever the car maker calls it.
How about a Honda Element AWD. I have one, and it is awesome in general, but really good in snow and ice. Will it rally? Is it allowed in the rules? Its insurance designation is a station wagon which is great on insurance, and I believe allows it in the rules.
A perfect example of traction control that cuts throttle can be found in newer Subarus with the CVT.
Video idea: Is it worth upgrading an open diff to an lsd for a fwd or rwd car, if the vehicle is driven in winter conditions? In a fwd open diff vehicle, can some of the torque applied to the slipping wheel be sent to the other wheel by lightly pressing the brake?
That would be an interesting one, basically can you manually do what the traction control does? My hypothesis is that applying the brakes would slow the spinning wheel but not enough to get the wheel with too much grip going. Now somebody needs to test this.
Before installing my lsd, i ofen got stuck on muddy hills with my e30, cranking the handbrake a bit did help a bit.
You can definitely left foot brake to correct for wheelspin and force an open diff to transfer power more evenly. Basically you're deleting the "path of least resistance" by applying fairly equal resistance to both tires. With a FWD just remember the brakes are also applied to the rear wheels as well, they'll be dragging a little so it's a 2 steps forward one step back thing again. In a 4WD with open diffs front and rear this can be VERY useful off road BUT when you do it too often / aggressively you'll end up breaking some teeth off the spider gears in the diff... Or a U-Joint... Or shear an axle shaft... Or the ring and pinion...
I have a fwd fiesta ses, is the diff anything I can look into changing to increase rally performance?
Yes you can install a Quaife diff just like the one we put in the bright green ST in the video. The ST comes stock with an open diff and traction control, and you can see what the quaife does in the video. There are more aggressive plate diffs available as well, but they're less street-drivable and harder on the axles and everything else.
10:30 IIRC Do all STI models disconnect the center diff when the hand brake is pulled? Or is this only true with the models that have the mechanically controlled center diff?
I believe its only the '04-'05 models. They have an electronically controlled diff that unlocks fully when the Ebrake is pulled. The '06+ models have the same thing but they also have a mechanical differential to prevent fully unlocking. Pull the handbrake in an 05 sti in the snow and you can do a fwd burnout lol
I would think they all do, my 05 Sti certainly does it and even my previous 2000 basic turbo model did it, too.
Are these winter tires or rally race tires?
Do you guys have any write ups or videos showing how you setup the wrx with the centre lock, ebrake and front diff ect. Really want to do this to my car, but not quite sure where to start.
Also deleting abs on these cars which fuse do you guys pull there is quite a few and I'm not sure if some are running other things as well
Is there a difference in the WRX vs STI diffs? What diff setup is best for rally? front and back limited slip?
The STI has limited slip diffs front and rear, which is an excellent setup for rally. The WRX only has a limited slip in the rear, which is still pretty great, but only 2008 and older. In 2009 the WRX got an open rear diff and traction control... Booo
Second time watching the video; still great! But I have a new question.
I've been practicing left foot breaking in my 2000 5speed honda accord. Since it's an open diff, are both wheels still spinning when I'm applying brake with the left foot and turning or just one wheel?
Awesome! Yes you can definitely ride the brakes to keep one tire from spinning and force the diff to turn both tires with more equal power. It may not be exactly 50-50 left-right but you can definitely keep it from going 100-0.
@@Teamoneilrally OMG thank you for the reply! I will definitely be signing up for some lessons in the future when I'm finished school.
Best wishes from Canada!
Is it possible for a 4x4 or AWD to only drive with one tyre considering that all three differentials are open?
The center diff is rarely completely open, even a viscous center diff will spin both front and rear driveshafts pretty well (unless it's badly worn out)
When you brought out the Transit I laughed because I had one of these vans for work and know how much they suck in the snow!!! That thing would get stuck on wet pavement.... No joke!!
First generation Ford Mondeo (European one) had a traction control cut the throttle very sharply
Great video!
have you guys ever checked out these Val-racing Russian R160 LSDs on eBay? Pretty curious if they are any good (for a Vermont street/dirt daily ripper anyway, not a real rally car) . They are less than $400 shipped. If I buy one, do you guys do installs?
If I have traction control on and try to do a trail turn will it just Bog down and I'll lose pretty much all power?
With TC on, the car will bog down any time the tires spin and the wheel speed sensors read higher than the actual vehicle speed.
@@Teamoneilrally Thanks!
My 2005 wrx sti uk model has lsds front and back, surely the usdm has that too!?
only a wrx in the video
@@MichaelSeeds Ah ok, that makes sense. Shame they didn't include an sti to show how awd should be! ;)
05 and newer STIs have the torsen type LSDs... They're great! I just learned the normal WRXs switched to open rear diffs (here at least) in the '08 and newer models, same year Toyota stopped offering limited slip diffs in the back of their trucks as well. Sad sad world.
Yeah I guess it's down to cost and what the average car buyer wants and needs. I was surprised the wrx wasn't spinning all fours but hey it's been educational! Thanks for the awesome videos and taking time to reply!
@@Teamoneilrally It would be great if you'd make a video showing how torsen LSD can't do anything when one wheel is in the air, so people woudn't think they are invincible with torsen. Actually I got stuck two times this winter in deep snow in my Hawkeye STI with only two wheels spinning. Too bad didn't tried to use breaks, would be interesting to know if it really helps.