Here here !!! Screw you Paula Vennells 😂. Ex postmistress Kathy here again. Love your take on this. I'm now living my best life and starting to enjoy my life once more. Keep up the good work mate. Xx
Thanks so much Kathy. That means a lot coming from you. And so good you are getting to live your best life. Hey, you've got the whole nation behind you ... and you didn't even have to learn how to play football at an international level to get it! Thanks so much for your encouragement. It helps me keep this going.
Pleasing to hear your situation has improved. Shame there's almost certainly the usual bureaucratic delay and cost involved! Illegitimi non carborundum!
Dear Paul, Fantastic analysis, thank you If I may please, I would add that on the final day of Vennells questioning, Mr.Tim Moloney KC played an absolute blinder by showing her an email of her slating the SPM's, and she was not expecting it, and both her body language along with her verbal demena showed Mr.Molony in both his "gentle" mannerisms then producing that email she was totally stunned.. The POL can get lawyers to prep them all ready for the days session, but Sir Wyn, Jason Beer and core participents will always win !!
Thank you so much for your encouragement. It really helps me keep going with this channel. Yes, I saw that too and was absolutely dumb founded by it. It really was a breath taking moment. Tim Maloney was really effective in how he brought that evidence in. And, having the subpostmaster Jo Hamilton sat there in the front row made it even more pointed ... you could almost feel Vennells getting skewered on Jo's stare. I think that is going to be a big moment in the enquiry going forward.
Imagine, at your place of work, some money goes missing. You get blamed. If you deny it you are threatened with court resulting in prison. Or if you admit it you just get a suspended sentence or community punishment. So to avoid prison you admit guilt. Over and done with you think. Then your company sues you for court costs because you were found guilty, you owe £350,000 in court costs. Your life ruined. This company is called the Post Office. Their logo is " whatever you need us for, we're here for you". They spent £100 million in expensive lawers to try to avoid paying £58 million in compensation. The class action saw the incorrectly convicted see £20,000 in compensation after court costs. The executive salaries were between £250,000 and £500,000. Post Office investigators were given bonuses for every Horizon conviction
Thanks Paul.. I avidly watch all the IT inquiry with Sir Wyn and his team… I love it when Mr Beer does the old side eye…. You know something is coming… all the team have and still are doing a great job to leave no stone unturned and yes I also love the team who ask the questions at the end and you see the witnesses positively squirming… and after all that it’s good to catch up with your take on it either to validate my understanding was correct or throw light on what I may have missed.👏👏👏👏
Yep, sadly true. The only one who says this is Jason Beer when a witness can't understand his question or when he interrupts. i wish the witnesses would show such humility.
Maybe I shouldn't say this publically, but I think have a developed a bit of a crush on him. He's the kinda guy I'd like to take for a pint down at my local ... because I think he'd be good fun ... but he also scares me a little too!
Totally agree. JB has an amazing ability to predict where witnesses will head and is prepared well for that. He also has sharp “think on your feet” skills. No hesitation, no flinching, just that “death stare”. Impressive. Concur with your analysis.
Brilliant analysis, Paul. I enjoyed your piece on Vennells and van den Bogerd too. This whole sorry business highlights the dangers of protecting a company/brand at all costs to the detriment of the ordinary staff who work there. The well-being of the staff is viewed as being of no consequence. They are considered to be expendable and when they are harmed, this is felt to be merely collateral damage. Faceless, soulless managment at its very worst.
Isn’t that the essence of tragedy? That a person is responsible for their own downfall? If you’re a victim of yourself, how much pity you deserve depends on the motives for your actions. When you’ve taken down thousands of innocent and powerless people with you, you’re going to need some damn good motives for what you did if you want to avoid blame. Vennells’ motives were and continue to be, entirely self-serving. She deserves to spend many years in prison.
I think the system and the company that created it ARE to Blake for the 'on paper' shortages. However, Vennels and her minions hiding it from the people convinced and Parliament IS her fault 1st and spreads out going downhill from her in the Org Chart. SHE lied to them Sub Post Masters, to the PMs who questioned them in 2013 and ongoing after. Over 700 families, and all their friends, acquaintances and PO customers had their lives CHANGED drastically and in most cases irreparably. I am not a Brit. I am an American, but we have corruption and government problems here too. But hopefully these people, both sides of the pond, will get their just dues.
As Sam stein Kings Council , Stated youre not stupid , She backed the system and when it started to fall apart , she doubled down yet again . She knew what she was doing and she got found out .
Yep, I think that's right. It's the so-called 'educated' folk who seem to do the most social harm. Which is a bit of a worry, given I am a university lecturer!
@@PaulDuckett What kind of education leads to a fibbing incompetent ***** like Vennells? Not your type of education for sure!! I don't have any respect for her "education". IMO she's not very bright. She'll do "what's wanted". It's as always jobs for the boys and girls. Many go from one failure to another with huge payoffs each time - I presume to keep them quiet. So companies know that type will do what they want... not rock the boat if they've like the post office got boats to rock.
Thank you for your analysis. I recently found your channel and it really helps me to understand what is going on during the inquiry. I am so angry at how the subpostmasters were treated and long to see justice done. Delighted that Alan Bates is now Sir Alan! Please keep your channel going. All the best.
Yes, I think you are right. The powerful have been untouchable for so long ... Today was a big day in regard to that ... with Trump's conviction, whatever we might think about the validity of the conviction.
it's a real shame that everyone from the lawyers to the investigators to the managers to the execs ALL were trying to fight against these bad things happening, but they were just unable to accomplish it "at the time". I'm wondering what force was preventing them, cause it sounds like everyone around them was (secretly and never written in emails) on the same page. what a shame. how horrible that all these hardworking people were unable to do anything.....while writing emails that actively advanced the wrongdoings and horrific tragedies
Another great and insightful video of undoing the wrong doers , well done Dr Duckett , this channel is compulsive viewing for those who want to see justice prevail at the end of this inquiry
@@PaulDuckett Dr Duckett, please would you make an analysis of Richard Callard Sh'ex and govt investments official , who's arrogance towards the SPM's was reprehensible in my opinion , you might recognise him as "Yoda" from star wars but I'll leave that to your judgement sir as I think he bears an uncanny resemblance lol.
The catch 22 is this, if they had not ignored evidence of bugs in Horizon so as to protect their integrity and had properly investigated them, their integrity would still be intact. Because they ignored evidence of bugs their integrity is destroyed.
It isn't (or wasn't) so much the bugs. It was the fact that Fujitsu could change the data without anyone authorising it, and they swore blind for years that simply couldn't happen. And actually, even _that_ wasn't the biggest issue. It's the fact that once they knew that fact, they didn't disclose it to the courts. At that point, they joined a conspiracy to obstruct justice.
Perhaps at some point the question about why governments have so resolutely sat on their hands about all this for so long until forced by the media to look at it should be asked. Who alse is hiding from accountability?
Awww, that is so kind. It does take quite an emotional toll watching those hearings, hey? Glad that my videos help sit those emotions somewhere useful :) p
Thanks for this. Really interesting. It’s such a shame that corporate greed is still alive and well as the main priority of the systems and it depresses the hell out of me because my son is working in one of them. 😢
Thanks for your posting. Yep, sadly, it's hard to avoid these types of corporations - they are everywhere! I feel sorry for young folk as they don't have many options in terms of avoiding working for them in some way or another. :(
This woman is a deeply religious person. Therefore as such. How should she react the second she heard there is a pregnant woman possibly wrongly convicted? She didn't do as we would expect a genuinely religious soul to do. Therefore is her religion a mask?
Read about religious narcissists. She loves being the center of attention and she loves being a moral authority but she has no self awareness. Religions everywhere are filled with these empty soulless people.
Arse- to quote father ted - she may like dressing up - personally I wish Welby had made her bishop of London- her in a bishop hat and purple socks is a sight we could rib even more - but she has sent a 1000 to court and many to jail, suicide or early death and knew they were innocent - she is satanic not religious
She's a 'Corporate' Vicar. So yes, for her, religion is a 'mask'. If she really believed in her judgemental god, she would be on her knees begging SPM for their forgiveness, and hope that her god would see the depths of her contrition. Instead we have this. Lies. As for 'genuinely religious soul'. Hm? As a genuine atheist, my moral compass would have kicked in way before it even got to the prosecution stage. Sorry, but religion does not equate to a higher moral or ethical standard. Often it is reverse.
As one of the victims I feel it is the establishment scapegoating Vennells so they can hide away in the shadows and never have the light of inquisition shone upon them. It's a little like blaming the camp commandant of Belsen for everything and then allowing the senior people in command to walk away without any stain whatsoever let alone accountability. Vennells was obeying orders given to her by senior civil servants and government ministers and in some cases we don't even know who they were! They were the ones who wrote the targets and they knew the wrongful prosecutions of Subpostmasters was happening but they ordered Vennells to carry on. We know ministers knew because Ed Davey's brother worked for cartwright king who were prosecuting subpostmasters and we know he received a lucrative 'consultancy' after he left office. The senior people are not being brought to account in any of this and are leaving others to carry the can for them.
Yes... exactly... the 'system' that these pawns answer to, is to blame... and as you say, there are so many of them involved. One could point the finger at Blair way back when he signed off on the deal with Fujitsu (which Gordon Brown advised him not to do), but who was he answering to? Only now they are realizing that mounting support for the SPMs is forever increasing and it has gone way past the point of them retreating. So the 'system' is prepared to turn on its own and throw in a few "sacrificial lambs" to appease public opinion.
First off, so sorry that you got caught up in this scandal. I hope you are doing well. And, I agree. Though Vennells carries blame, there is that risk that she will be hung out to dry by those who want the buck to stop with her because if it doesn't it will expose them too. You make an excellent and astute point. Thank you so much for posting it. I really apprecaite it.
Good points Brian. And, I think your analysis is right. At some point, someone will be pushed under the bus and the big risk is that no one will notice who it was that pushed them.
It is always nice hear Paul's analysis of the 'Horizon scandal'. Although Paul is originally from here in the UK, it is refreshing to hear his 'outsider's', and more impartial than the various British commentators', view. Also, it makes a change to listen to the views of a psychologist on this issue - 'community psychology' sounds an interesting area of study too. On a more personal note, Paul's accent is now a lovely mix of his old British origins and his Australian home of these later years.
G'day Melanie. Strooth! (not sure if I have spelled that right and have probably now insulted my Aussie countryfolk. ... they'll probably deport me now!) And thank you for your lovely encouragement.
Eh, "system problem". She controlled the system. She controlled the structure. She was *paid handsomely* for the *responsibilities* she took (this is why CEOs are paid so much, after all - something they point out every time the topic of exorbitant CEO salaries comes back), exactly because if the sh hit the fan, *she* would be held *responsible* . And lo and behold - she is! What is the fuss all about?
The large organisation where I worked for 15 years, the senior management all had a very detailed grasp of what was going on throughout the institution. And yet here is a CEO claiming ignorance of some of the most time and money consuming aspects of her organisation. What she says simply does not ring true, hence why she is now arguably about as popular as Myra Hindley.
Yep, good points and thanks so much for posting. Every organisation I have worked for I have heard the CEO say that too - "hey, I could go to prison if we get things wrong ... and that is why I get paid the big bucks". But because they are paid the big bucks, no one will send them to prison - because the big bucks will pay for the big lawyers that will protect them whenever ever having to pay for the stuff ups
I've taken to calling her "Paula Venal". I read she pocketed some 4 million pounds in salary and bonuses while cheerfully ruining lives with her incompetence and indifference during her tenure. Some vicar, eh?
So sorry for my late reply. Thanks so much for posting this. Gosh, I didn't really how much cash she got. That kinda puts a different perspective on things. Yep, she was no vicar of dibley, that's for sure! :)
'It wasn't me!'....the old disassociation trick....put some distance between you and any responsibility/blame - as much as possible. It's clear from all the evidence that Vennells new all about the miscarriages of justice, but chose to embrace and champion the cover-up, continuing it for years, knowingly, and actively....guilty your Honour.
I saw this time and time again when I worked with the NHS - if mistakes were made, don't look for blame: it's the system, it's circumstances, it's almost anything but individual failure or fault. This is a form of insanity, and it's guaranteed never to reveal the truth, or resolve problems - "lessons have been learned", they always, and I mean ALWAYS, say; but they haven't been, because the mechanism to cause them to be learned is entirely absent.
I'm interested in exploring how confirmation bias played its role in the early days of the Horizon scandal. The late 1990s was a period of great transformation from paper-based systems to new whizz-bang IT systems. Back then, one of the justifications for spending these eye watering amounts of money on the new IT toys was that The Business would be able to root out fraud and theft that was probably hiding in the paper-based systems being replaced. Cut to 2 years later, the managers get to point to the 20 or 30 successful prosecutions per year, and they can say: See!! We told you the system would root out the thieves. At that stage, It would take a very special person to say, as the case-count kept rising: "Just a minute we're getting far too many cases.... something is not right"
Having been in the Civil Service in the 1990s (Inland Revenue) and experiencing a raft of new computer management systems arriving I have to say that there was a healthy skepticism about what was coming out from them. “Rubbish in, rubbish out” was a common refrain and independent verification was always sought particularly as the systems would sometimes produce outcomes which were obviously and provably wrong. I was staggered that the so-called ‘auditors’ and ‘investigators’ never apparently applied any skepticism whatsoever and my suspicion has always been that skeptical investigators were weeded out for not getting ‘results’. This also explains why a number of witnesses alluded to the investigation teams reducing and workload increasing as a backdrop to increasing numbers of investigations and prosecutions. That is the mirror opposite of what I would expect to see. Again such decisions would have come from high up in POL.
The person at the top should be capable of stepping "outside" the system and seeing it in perspective, and not rely entirely on the next layer down,. The should be capable of seeing when things go wrong. I have worked in a large organisation fairly close to the top and there is no way that hundreds of "coal face" workers being charged with wrong doing would not be noticed and questioned. Most organisations are nothing like Vennels' Post Office was.
Such a good point. Thanks for posting. Yes, they absolutely need to be able to do that. The Head of Royal Mail nailed it in that whatsapp message when she told Paula that Paula must have known. You really have to work hard not to hear such things when you are in a position like CEO. It's a kind of active ignorance.
That is an excellent analysis; thank you. (Despite my perhaps rather 'dodgy' channel name, I'm a retired psychotherapist) I've been looking for an analysis of Vennells' replies to the various questions. To me, she appeared to be going for the 'gullible idiot' defence - tricked and fooled by others and let down by the 'system' But, of course, she's neither, and you've demonstrated that very well.
Thanks so much for your lovely feedback. Yes, I think you are right ... the gullible idiot defence does sum it up nicely. Good to see a fellow traveller in psychology engaging in social issues ... not enough of us do :)
It is not just that the Post Office blamed the sub-postmasters/sub-postmistresses but that is not the whole truth. The other half is that in British Law of the time, the records presented by a computing system were (perhaps still are) assumed to be the black-and-white truth.
Yes, really important point. I believe the Law Society was considering changing that but POL was among those who lobbied against the change ... suprirse, surprise! p
I really don’t see that Paula Vennells can be considered a “victim” of anything other than her own arrogance. She was CEO and thus the buck stopped with her and she should be held accountable. The only victims of this debacle and massive miscarriage of justice are the 900 or so sub postmasters who were accused of theft / false accounting. Her tears in the Enquiry were for herself, pathetic self-pity and attempting to paint herself as somehow a victim is just insulting to the sub postmasters and to us, the public.
Hi Tony, Thanks so much for your encouragement. I really apprecaite it. Oh yes, Angela van den Bogerd. I was thinking of scripting something on her testimony to the enquriy because there was some fascinating stuff going on there. I'll get to that as soon as I can. Thanks again. I make no money from my videos (I don't monetise any of my videos) so they are fuelled purely by people like you who encourage me to keep going with this. :)
Thanks so much for your comment. I really appreciate it. Yep, what's next is so uncertain ... there's never been anything quite this big happen. I think the last big scandal in regards to a massive miscarriage of justice involved 10 wrongful convictions. Here we have well over 900! Unprecedented doesn't really seem to capture the space we are in!
She was paid very well to take responsibility. If she somehow thinks that she did not have responsibility for the disaster then all the payments made to her should be returned and she should offer herself for jail time.
So she has been working for 5 years solely on preparation for the inquiry - with her advising lawyers paid by the taxpayers. Overall, it is just the lawyers who have profited throughout these 25 years, win or lose - and so it continues.......... As an engineer, I confirm in advance the end result of a project, the cost of it, and the duration - lawyers do none of these.
I think your sound in this new home is very clear and has a slight sonority and tone that adds clarity -its actually quite unique or distinct…dont change it if you dont have too…sound geek here xx PS you have a lovely handsome face and a demeanor to match.
Thank you so much. I am really needing feedback on my audio. When I started making videos for youtube my audio was really horrfic. Trouble is I listened to too much loud music via headphones in my youth (Damn you Sony Walkman) and I am also partially colour blind. Not a great combination when you are trying to be content creator. I end up looking like an oompa loompa because I can't colour grade properly and I sound like a smurf because I can't hear properly. It's good to know that the EQ I used this time miraculously worked so I'll keep that set up for future videos. And thank you so much for that lovely complement ... my mum put you up to that, didn't she?
Yes, well said. A terrible irony in Vennell's defence, hey? I.e., it wasn't me guv, it was the system I tells ya (I said that in a cockney acccent, for some unexplainable reason). Thanks for posting. You are spot on.
I will be the first to admit my mistrust of authority and corporate organisations sometimes leads me down rabbit holes of conspiracy theory.....I have Russian genes and to compound that, I am a sacked registered nurse of 40+ years for refusing the jab in NZ. Having established these factors, through following the inquiry, I heard to make the PO profitable, lots of branches would have to close....PO would have to pay compensations to the subpostmasters/mistresses. Are you with me so far?? Wouldn't it be great for PO if NOT only could PO close the branches without a compensation pay out BUT they got all that dosh by accusing the subbies of theft and false accounting and prosecute them through their own lawyers who din't have to disclose favourable evidence to the defence lawyers. Is it just me? Could the likes of Vennells et al be that evil?? Just asking. I would appreciate any feedback.
Bit late to be commenting on this, but Paula Vennells is amongst quite a number of people "to blame". She had numerous predecessors; the Government had people on the board and supposedly safeguarding the public interest; there were chairpersons before that ghastly Perkins woman. During her tenure as chief executive, Mrs Vennells was culpable, certainly, along with the entire senior management team, in withholding information. Collectively, they exhibited classic codependent behaviour, buying into each others' bullshit, collaborating in an act they all believed in, because the act, the lie, was less embarrassing than the reality, the truth. Mrs Vennells needs a lot of therapy. Years, probably. In a prison cell.
She is clever but not smart. I often wonder how she could fix things now. Being honest would help but would probably put her in jail. Of course, if she was actually a real Christian, that is exactly what she should do.
Yes, fair comment. I thought her church taught people to say sorry and ask for forgiveness. But, maybe it only applies to the flock. Thanks for engaging and posting :)
15:11. The lesson I learnt from the Inquiry is be ware of the “Mr Beer Traps”. And don’t tale comfort form Mr Beer’s considerable ability to mirror the language used by the witness, causing the witness to believe Mr Beer is only as smart as them…but he ‘is’ far smarter than most of them.
I'd suggest "victim blaming" versus "system blaming" as described here is a false dichotomy. Systems that reward sociopathic behaviour tend to attract and reward sociopaths - or at least, individuals who are willing/able to suppress their prosocial and empathetic impulses in favour of gaining personal rewards from the system. The key dimension is power. How far does the individual have the power to resist the system? In this case, Vennells clearly had the power to reject or change how the PO prosecutorial system worked. She chose not to do so.
Yes, really good comment. I think you are right. I presented it a bit like an either or to make the point but you are right to trouble that because things are rarely one thing or the other. So, nice critique, thank you. ") p
@@PaulDuckett sure, I appreciate the need spmetimes to present things in such a way. On another note, Gareth Jenkins' testimony made fascinating viewing in this context. How far were his intrinisic tendancies manipulated by POL and how far was he knowingly complicit?
After she left the post office she got a very high up job in the NHS. When it became common knowledge that she was implicated in the post office scandal, the NHS asked her to resign from her post there. She refused, and it was only after a high ranking employee of the NHS threatened to resign that Ms vennells finally stepped down. She obviously has a very high level of confidence in herself.
I hold no brief for Paula Vennels, but I think in your assessment of her psychology you ignore the fact that, from Nick Wallis's careful record of the disaster, almost 50% of the Horizon-related prosecutions took place before she even joined the Post Office, and over 30% more happened before she became CEO, I think she was culpable in that she moved from job to job in higher management in different industries before coming into the PO, and not looking at what was really going on there - like so many of the higher management, and especially the Civil Servants who laid down the directions for the PO as non-executive directors. Whatever else she blamed, it wasn't her predecessors as CEO who had presided over over the first 80% of the carnage.
In this case bad people did bad things. The problem arises because we’re conditioned to believe that well educated, highly paid “managers” are not the bad people.
To have that many people at all ranks, indicates that certain traits such as compliance with superiors (yes men) or troublemakers with ethics, have been sought or filtered out by selection.
Remember the fictional additional balance could not be linked to a single transaction. How that got to court and out the other end, is mind blowing. Many thousands of pounds but the PO couldnt explain how they got this money. It wasn't for stamps. How come they didn't ask these questions or have a modicum of doubt even though they had just one set of data without external correlation.
Guilty but do not make her the scapegoat - many other POL CEOs or chairmen were in position throughout the 25 years System was primary, failure a corporation group think pushed it, incompetence or malpractice by many like Paula. But yes, she was a victim too of sorts - of the complex technical computer blips, probably not made fully aware INITIALLY .
I’m confused. We have seen that Paula Venells has worked hard to weave a story where she is a victim. However, the facts and tone of past emails show a smart, calculating leader working to lay the story that benefits her regardless of the facts. The facts point to a manipulative individual who wanted a certain image to be portrayed for her own benefit repeatedly regardless of the impact on others. Why is it so hard to expose her? Why are we so accepting of the victim portrayal?
Hiya John, That's a lovely enigmatic comment. It's made me wonder if you are thinking I am the one seeking attention and if you are ... well ... yep, fair criticism.
PV asked for background on complainants mental health. How did she intend to pursue this? Phone hacking, private detectives, bribery to get data? Sounds illegal to me
Stumbled on your channel earlier, really enjoyed this, you have a very interesting and engaging way of breaking things down so I'm subscribed and going to go back and have a nosey through your other content. and yes Screw you PV, awful woman !! I love JB though amazing forensic mind ;-D
Thanks so much, that it so lovely of you to tell me that. Hope you enjoy the other videos on the channel. A bit of a mix of opinion pieces and also lots of my teaching materials - I can't stand how higher education is only available to people who pay, so I make all my teaching videos accessible to the public .... though I am not sure the public wants them! Yes, JB is amazing. I think I might have a bit of a crush on him! He's actually got great comedic timing - his pointing out the typo made by Jarnal Singh (who wrote copulate rather than capitulate in an email) was hilarious.
Albert Speer used this defence, I didn't know about the death camps. I should have looked deeper but I didn't look and I am therefore guilty. He escaped hanging with that tactic.
She was shafted by everyone who worked for her. She should have been aware that Horizon when selected by the Government in 1999 was never fit-for-purpose and the hope was that the Fujitso post-development would address the major flaws before anybody noticed. Being naive and too trusting she played into their hands. Then Fujitso well and truly shafted PO seeing PO as rich pickings. To note that the decade before JV was when the seed was planted and many issues stemmed from this period so those in charge at the time are equally culpable. One point not made so far is that Horizon was meant to detect genuine fraud so mind-set and all processes in place were just doing what it was meant to be doing. No one asked why it was so widespread.
Yes, the history behind this is very important. Without it, we can't make proper sense of what has happened. So, thanks for bringing that into the discussion.
Yes. So interesting in the inquiry how witness refer to the Post Office doing something and the counsel having to interrupt them by asking, who do you mean by 'the Post Office'.
Vennells will be "found not fit to stand trial", by the time charges are brought. Even shoulder pads and a fancy brooch can only get you so far in the Public Sector.
obedience leads to deadly outcomes, yet we live in a society and culture that demands this and the cost of disobedience is job ,career or freedom, so can we scapegoat individuals without protecting their right to question or decline assent. The weight of the law points to unquestioning obedience as default. i think we must learn the lessons and withdraw the pecuniary advantages of compliance. the human mind has unending propensity to shift responsability from themselves
Yep, I did think not to include that and know how time poor most people are ... but I just wanted to explain away my poor audio and my lack of videos of late. But, fair comment. I do struggle with this stuff. As an academic I've been taught to speak on a topic 1-2hours non stop (called lecturing). We are only now learning that most of our students feel asleep after the first 10 minutes of our lectures and we might need to get to the point a bit quicker!
Thanks for this - a Stanley Milgram explanation or the public lynching of Paula?? In fact this is more like a 'cult of belief' in Horizon by Paula, Sue, Alice and Mandy. Cults of belief need sacrifices and SPMs fitted the bill. Cult members find it very difficult to realise their beliefs are erroneous. It is no coincidence that Paula has religious pretentious. Talking her out of Horizon is like trying to talk her out of Christianity.
Nice reflections. Yes, the religious angle is very pertinent, whether cults or organised reglions. These were, essentially, faith based convictions, as in not based on evidence.
Whats with these PO senior women executives ... high and mighty hypocrites .. these stereotypical cruel women .. over promoted .. they escalated their commitment and doubled down instead of doing the right thing
I agree with what you are saying about folk in positions of excutive power, not with the gendered part of it. But I appreciate your comment and I agree, they just doubled down when they realised they were in error. Nicely said.
Here here !!! Screw you Paula Vennells 😂. Ex postmistress Kathy here again. Love your take on this. I'm now living my best life and starting to enjoy my life once more. Keep up the good work mate. Xx
Thanks so much Kathy. That means a lot coming from you. And so good you are getting to live your best life. Hey, you've got the whole nation behind you ... and you didn't even have to learn how to play football at an international level to get it! Thanks so much for your encouragement. It helps me keep this going.
Pleasing to hear your situation has improved. Shame there's almost certainly the usual bureaucratic delay and cost involved! Illegitimi non carborundum!
Bravo Kathy !
Dear Paul,
Fantastic analysis, thank you
If I may please, I would add that on the final day of Vennells questioning, Mr.Tim Moloney KC played an absolute blinder by showing her an email of her slating the SPM's, and she was not expecting it, and both her body language along with her verbal demena showed Mr.Molony in both his "gentle" mannerisms then producing that email she was totally stunned..
The POL can get lawyers to prep them all ready for the days session, but Sir Wyn, Jason Beer and core participents will always win !!
Thank you so much for your encouragement. It really helps me keep going with this channel. Yes, I saw that too and was absolutely dumb founded by it. It really was a breath taking moment. Tim Maloney was really effective in how he brought that evidence in. And, having the subpostmaster Jo Hamilton sat there in the front row made it even more pointed ... you could almost feel Vennells getting skewered on Jo's stare. I think that is going to be a big moment in the enquiry going forward.
And yep, I agree. I think they will win. The zeitgeist has changed and no politician is going to be able to put the muffler on this one.
@@PaulDuckett I hope you are right we'll see.
Imagine, at your place of work, some money goes missing. You get blamed. If you deny it you are threatened with court resulting in prison. Or if you admit it you just get a suspended sentence or community punishment. So to avoid prison you admit guilt. Over and done with you think. Then your company sues you for court costs because you were found guilty, you owe £350,000 in court costs. Your life ruined. This company is called the Post Office. Their logo is " whatever you need us for, we're here for you". They spent £100 million in expensive lawers to try to avoid paying £58 million in compensation. The class action saw the incorrectly convicted see £20,000 in compensation after court costs. The executive salaries were between £250,000 and £500,000. Post Office investigators were given bonuses for every Horizon conviction
Bit like the old witch trials…If you sank and drowned you were innocent ……if you floated you were guilty.😩😵💫😩
Very nice summed up :)
And you were told you were the ONLY one in the whole country - their union let them down very badly too.
Thanks Paul.. I avidly watch all the IT inquiry with Sir Wyn and his team… I love it when Mr Beer does the old side eye…. You know something is coming… all the team have and still are doing a great job to leave no stone unturned and yes I also love the team who ask the questions at the end and you see the witnesses positively squirming… and after all that it’s good to catch up with your take on it either to validate my understanding was correct or throw light on what I may have missed.👏👏👏👏
Thanks so much. I am a fan of Beer's old side eye too! :)
"I'm terribly sorry - it's all my fault!" - Words that no-one will ever utter at the PO enquiry.
Yep, sadly true. The only one who says this is Jason Beer when a witness can't understand his question or when he interrupts. i wish the witnesses would show such humility.
Jason Beer KC is one cool dude 👍
Maybe I shouldn't say this publically, but I think have a developed a bit of a crush on him. He's the kinda guy I'd like to take for a pint down at my local ... because I think he'd be good fun ... but he also scares me a little too!
Totally agree. JB has an amazing ability to predict where witnesses will head and is prepared well for that. He also has sharp “think on your feet” skills. No hesitation, no flinching, just that “death stare”. Impressive.
Concur with your analysis.
I'm impressed by his delivery which looks to be designed to put the other party at ease as he gives them the space to back themselves into a corner.
Brilliant analysis, Paul. I enjoyed your piece on Vennells and van den Bogerd too. This whole sorry business highlights the dangers of protecting a company/brand at all costs to the detriment of the ordinary staff who work there. The well-being of the staff is viewed as being of no consequence. They are considered to be expendable and when they are harmed, this is felt to be merely collateral damage. Faceless, soulless managment at its very worst.
Thanks so much for your lovely feedback and for summing up the problem really well. It was a great post. Thank you.
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Isn’t that the essence of tragedy? That a person is responsible for their own downfall? If you’re a victim of yourself, how much pity you deserve depends on the motives for your actions. When you’ve taken down thousands of innocent and powerless people with you, you’re going to need some damn good motives for what you did if you want to avoid blame. Vennells’ motives were and continue to be, entirely self-serving. She deserves to spend many years in prison.
Yep, a modern day tagedy as old as the hills.
Thanks so much for posting. It was a good one :)
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I think the system and the company that created it ARE to Blake for the 'on paper' shortages.
However, Vennels and her minions hiding it from the people convinced and Parliament IS her fault 1st and spreads out going downhill from her in the Org Chart. SHE lied to them Sub Post Masters, to the PMs who questioned them in 2013 and ongoing after.
Over 700 families, and all their friends, acquaintances and PO customers had their lives CHANGED drastically and in most cases irreparably.
I am not a Brit. I am an American, but we have corruption and government problems here too. But hopefully these people, both sides of the pond, will get their just dues.
I agree. Thanks so much for posting your thoughts. Things look quite nuts in the US!
As Sam stein Kings Council , Stated youre not stupid , She backed the system and when it started to fall apart , she doubled down yet again . She knew what she was doing and she got found out .
Yep, I think that's right. It's the so-called 'educated' folk who seem to do the most social harm. Which is a bit of a worry, given I am a university lecturer!
Yes , the arrogance of it ! The very thought that hundreds of honest people would all at once start being dishonest is beyond ridiculous !
@@PaulDuckett What kind of education leads to a fibbing incompetent ***** like Vennells? Not your type of education for sure!! I don't have any respect for her "education". IMO she's not very bright. She'll do "what's wanted". It's as always jobs for the boys and girls. Many go from one failure to another with huge payoffs each time - I presume to keep them quiet. So companies know that type will do what they want... not rock the boat if they've like the post office got boats to rock.
King's *Counsel*
Thank you for your analysis. I recently found your channel and it really helps me to understand what is going on during the inquiry. I am so angry at how the subpostmasters were treated and long to see justice done. Delighted that Alan Bates is now Sir Alan! Please keep your channel going. All the best.
Thanks so much for your lovely encouragement. It's that sort of feedback that keeps me going. Much appreciated, p
I think 4 topped themselves - or attempted it. Vennells reminds me of Prince Andrew being too honourable to be at fault.
Yes, I think you are right. The powerful have been untouchable for so long ... Today was a big day in regard to that ... with Trump's conviction, whatever we might think about the validity of the conviction.
At least 5 deaths as I recall .
Vennells does not sweat either...
What a fantastic analogy
it's a real shame that everyone from the lawyers to the investigators to the managers to the execs ALL were trying to fight against these bad things happening, but they were just unable to accomplish it "at the time". I'm wondering what force was preventing them, cause it sounds like everyone around them was (secretly and never written in emails) on the same page. what a shame. how horrible that all these hardworking people were unable to do anything.....while writing emails that actively advanced the wrongdoings and horrific tragedies
Another great and insightful video of undoing the wrong doers , well done Dr Duckett , this channel is compulsive viewing for those who want to see justice prevail at the end of this inquiry
That is so lovely of you to say. Thanks so much mark,
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@@PaulDuckett Dr Duckett, please would you make an analysis of Richard Callard Sh'ex and govt investments official , who's arrogance towards the SPM's was reprehensible in my opinion , you might recognise him as "Yoda" from star wars but I'll leave that to your judgement sir as I think he bears an uncanny resemblance lol.
Thank God Beers was setting a trap - for a second it felt like he was letting her off.
Yep, he can be a bit crafty can our Mr Beer. I wouldn't want to play him at poker. :)
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Appreciate your analysis.
Thanks so much Pieter. I appreciate you taking the time to give me the encouragement. It helps me keep going with this stuff.
The catch 22 is this, if they had not ignored evidence of bugs in Horizon so as to protect their integrity and had properly investigated them, their integrity would still be intact. Because they ignored evidence of bugs their integrity is destroyed.
Excellent point. Thanks so much for posting.
Exactly.sometmes the big man ,needs to listen to the little man.or the little man Will bite you on the arse. metaphorically speaking 🗣️
It isn't (or wasn't) so much the bugs. It was the fact that Fujitsu could change the data without anyone authorising it, and they swore blind for years that simply couldn't happen.
And actually, even _that_ wasn't the biggest issue. It's the fact that once they knew that fact, they didn't disclose it to the courts. At that point, they joined a conspiracy to obstruct justice.
A wise friend advised me, do not think solely on what someone tells you, but also a bit on WHY they are telling you.
Perhaps at some point the question about why governments have so resolutely sat on their hands about all this for so long until forced by the media to look at it should be asked. Who alse is hiding from accountability?
Yes, excellent point.
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These videos are fantastic! I'm glued to these hearings, and your analysis afterward makes it bearable emotionally.
Awww, that is so kind. It does take quite an emotional toll watching those hearings, hey? Glad that my videos help sit those emotions somewhere useful :)
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Thanks for this. Really interesting. It’s such a shame that corporate greed is still alive and well as the main priority of the systems and it depresses the hell out of me because my son is working in one of them. 😢
Thanks for your posting. Yep, sadly, it's hard to avoid these types of corporations - they are everywhere! I feel sorry for young folk as they don't have many options in terms of avoiding working for them in some way or another. :(
This woman is a deeply religious person. Therefore as such. How should she react the second she heard there is a pregnant woman possibly wrongly convicted? She didn't do as we would expect a genuinely religious soul to do. Therefore is her religion a mask?
Read about religious narcissists. She loves being the center of attention and she loves being a moral authority but she has no self awareness. Religions everywhere are filled with these empty soulless people.
Like the camel this millionaire Christian will not make it through the eye of the needle
Arse- to quote father ted - she may like dressing up - personally I wish Welby had made her bishop of London- her in a bishop hat and purple socks is a sight we could rib even more - but she has sent a 1000 to court and many to jail, suicide or early death and knew they were innocent - she is satanic not religious
Yes, such a good question. I suppose we kinda know that one church was used as a mask for some people doing terrible things ... the Catholic church.
She's a 'Corporate' Vicar. So yes, for her, religion is a 'mask'. If she really believed in her judgemental god, she would be on her knees begging SPM for their forgiveness, and hope that her god would see the depths of her contrition. Instead we have this. Lies.
As for 'genuinely religious soul'. Hm? As a genuine atheist, my moral compass would have kicked in way before it even got to the prosecution stage. Sorry, but religion does not equate to a higher moral or ethical standard. Often it is reverse.
As one of the victims I feel it is the establishment scapegoating Vennells so they can hide away in the shadows and never have the light of inquisition shone upon them. It's a little like blaming the camp commandant of Belsen for everything and then allowing the senior people in command to walk away without any stain whatsoever let alone accountability.
Vennells was obeying orders given to her by senior civil servants and government ministers and in some cases we don't even know who they were! They were the ones who wrote the targets and they knew the wrongful prosecutions of Subpostmasters was happening but they ordered Vennells to carry on. We know ministers knew because Ed Davey's brother worked for cartwright king who were prosecuting subpostmasters and we know he received a lucrative 'consultancy' after he left office.
The senior people are not being brought to account in any of this and are leaving others to carry the can for them.
Yes... exactly... the 'system' that these pawns answer to, is to blame... and as you say, there are so many of them involved.
One could point the finger at Blair way back when he signed off on the deal with Fujitsu (which Gordon Brown advised him not to do), but who was he answering to?
Only now they are realizing that mounting support for the SPMs is forever increasing and it has gone way past the point of them retreating. So the 'system' is prepared to turn on its own and throw in a few "sacrificial lambs" to appease public opinion.
First off, so sorry that you got caught up in this scandal. I hope you are doing well. And, I agree. Though Vennells carries blame, there is that risk that she will be hung out to dry by those who want the buck to stop with her because if it doesn't it will expose them too. You make an excellent and astute point. Thank you so much for posting it. I really apprecaite it.
Hope ur doing ok. ❤
Good points Brian. And, I think your analysis is right. At some point, someone will be pushed under the bus and the big risk is that no one will notice who it was that pushed them.
I think we can start with the top man who was the one who pushed it through. The rt hon liar in chief Tony Bliar
It is always nice hear Paul's analysis of the 'Horizon scandal'. Although Paul is originally from here in the UK, it is refreshing to hear his 'outsider's', and more impartial than the various British commentators', view. Also, it makes a change to listen to the views of a psychologist on this issue - 'community psychology' sounds an interesting area of study too. On a more personal note, Paul's accent is now a lovely mix of his old British origins and his Australian home of these later years.
G'day Melanie. Strooth! (not sure if I have spelled that right and have probably now insulted my Aussie countryfolk. ... they'll probably deport me now!) And thank you for your lovely encouragement.
@@PaulDuckett Thank you very much Paul. It's wonderful to hear from you.
Eh, "system problem". She controlled the system. She controlled the structure. She was *paid handsomely* for the *responsibilities* she took (this is why CEOs are paid so much, after all - something they point out every time the topic of exorbitant CEO salaries comes back), exactly because if the sh hit the fan, *she* would be held *responsible* . And lo and behold - she is! What is the fuss all about?
The large organisation where I worked for 15 years, the senior management all had a very detailed grasp of what was going on throughout the institution. And yet here is a CEO claiming ignorance of some of the most time and money consuming aspects of her organisation. What she says simply does not ring true, hence why she is now arguably about as popular as Myra Hindley.
Yep, good points and thanks so much for posting. Every organisation I have worked for I have heard the CEO say that too - "hey, I could go to prison if we get things wrong ... and that is why I get paid the big bucks". But because they are paid the big bucks, no one will send them to prison - because the big bucks will pay for the big lawyers that will protect them whenever ever having to pay for the stuff ups
I've taken to calling her "Paula Venal". I read she pocketed some 4 million pounds in salary and bonuses while cheerfully ruining lives with her incompetence and indifference during her tenure. Some vicar, eh?
So sorry for my late reply. Thanks so much for posting this. Gosh, I didn't really how much cash she got. That kinda puts a different perspective on things. Yep, she was no vicar of dibley, that's for sure! :)
'I didn't ask for that strategy...however I followed it."
Yep, that sums it up nicely :) Thanks so much for posting.
'It wasn't me!'....the old disassociation trick....put some distance between you and any responsibility/blame - as much as possible. It's clear from all the evidence that Vennells new all about the miscarriages of justice, but chose to embrace and champion the cover-up, continuing it for years, knowingly, and actively....guilty your Honour.
Just subscribed. Two reasons, your style of presentation and the last few minutes of the video. Thank you for wanting to do all this.
Thanks so much, really appreciate it.
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I saw this time and time again when I worked with the NHS - if mistakes were made, don't look for blame: it's the system, it's circumstances, it's almost anything but individual failure or fault. This is a form of insanity, and it's guaranteed never to reveal the truth, or resolve problems - "lessons have been learned", they always, and I mean ALWAYS, say; but they haven't been, because the mechanism to cause them to be learned is entirely absent.
Yep, I agree. Nicely put.
Yep, I agree. Nicely put.
I'm interested in exploring how confirmation bias played its role in the early days of the Horizon scandal. The late 1990s was a period of great transformation from paper-based systems to new whizz-bang IT systems. Back then, one of the justifications for spending these eye watering amounts of money on the new IT toys was that The Business would be able to root out fraud and theft that was probably hiding in the paper-based systems being replaced.
Cut to 2 years later, the managers get to point to the 20 or 30 successful prosecutions per year, and they can say: See!! We told you the system would root out the thieves. At that stage, It would take a very special person to say, as the case-count kept rising: "Just a minute we're getting far too many cases.... something is not right"
That's really interesting analysis. I think you are onto something here. Thanks so much for posting.
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Having been in the Civil Service in the 1990s (Inland Revenue) and experiencing a raft of new computer management systems arriving I have to say that there was a healthy skepticism about what was coming out from them. “Rubbish in, rubbish out” was a common refrain and independent verification was always sought particularly as the systems would sometimes produce outcomes which were obviously and provably wrong.
I was staggered that the so-called ‘auditors’ and ‘investigators’ never apparently applied any skepticism whatsoever and my suspicion has always been that skeptical investigators were weeded out for not getting ‘results’. This also explains why a number of witnesses alluded to the investigation teams reducing and workload increasing as a backdrop to increasing numbers of investigations and prosecutions. That is the mirror opposite of what I would expect to see. Again such decisions would have come from high up in POL.
The person at the top should be capable of stepping "outside" the system and seeing it in perspective, and not rely entirely on the next layer down,. The should be capable of seeing when things go wrong. I have worked in a large organisation fairly close to the top and there is no way that hundreds of "coal face" workers being charged with wrong doing would not be noticed and questioned. Most organisations are nothing like Vennels' Post Office was.
Such a good point. Thanks for posting. Yes, they absolutely need to be able to do that. The Head of Royal Mail nailed it in that whatsapp message when she told Paula that Paula must have known. You really have to work hard not to hear such things when you are in a position like CEO. It's a kind of active ignorance.
Really enjoyable, it made me consider the whole of Vennell's testimony in a different light.
Thanks so much. I really appreciate your feedback and encouragement. It helps keep me motivated to carrying on posting p
That is an excellent analysis; thank you. (Despite my perhaps rather 'dodgy' channel name, I'm a retired psychotherapist) I've been looking for an analysis of Vennells' replies to the various questions. To me, she appeared to be going for the 'gullible idiot' defence - tricked and fooled by others and let down by the 'system' But, of course, she's neither, and you've demonstrated that very well.
Thanks so much for your lovely feedback. Yes, I think you are right ... the gullible idiot defence does sum it up nicely. Good to see a fellow traveller in psychology engaging in social issues ... not enough of us do :)
It is not just that the Post Office blamed the sub-postmasters/sub-postmistresses but that is not the whole truth. The other half is that in British Law of the time, the records presented by a computing system were (perhaps still are) assumed to be the black-and-white truth.
Yes, really important point. I believe the Law Society was considering changing that but POL was among those who lobbied against the change ... suprirse, surprise!
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I really don’t see that Paula Vennells can be considered a “victim” of anything other than her own arrogance. She was CEO and thus the buck stopped with her and she should be held accountable. The only victims of this debacle and massive miscarriage of justice are the 900 or so sub postmasters who were accused of theft / false accounting. Her tears in the Enquiry were for herself, pathetic self-pity and attempting to paint herself as somehow a victim is just insulting to the sub postmasters and to us, the public.
Yes, I do think we should expect higher standards of CEOs given they expect higher salaries than the rest of us.
Always be suspicious when a psychologist decides to employ an underscore...
Darn it, got found it :)
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Excellent, please do more like this on the Inquirey. How about doing Angela Va de ??? ... or whatever the last bit of her name is .
Hi Tony,
Thanks so much for your encouragement. I really apprecaite it. Oh yes, Angela van den Bogerd. I was thinking of scripting something on her testimony to the enquriy because there was some fascinating stuff going on there. I'll get to that as soon as I can. Thanks again. I make no money from my videos (I don't monetise any of my videos) so they are fuelled purely by people like you who encourage me to keep going with this. :)
I agree with all you say what eventually will happen I cannot think.
Thanks so much for your comment. I really appreciate it. Yep, what's next is so uncertain ... there's never been anything quite this big happen. I think the last big scandal in regards to a massive miscarriage of justice involved 10 wrongful convictions. Here we have well over 900! Unprecedented doesn't really seem to capture the space we are in!
Am I right to think that Vennells is being just a tiny bit duplicitous?
You have a lovely way of understating things :)
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I like your hats! Very interesting analysys. Thanks!
Thank you :) I take my hat off to you :)
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Next ring side seat....Moya Green evidence. Hands are wringing at the prospect of throwing PV under the bus!
Yep, get out the popcorn!
She was paid very well to take responsibility. If she somehow thinks that she did not have responsibility for the disaster then all the payments made to her should be returned and she should offer herself for jail time.
So she has been working for 5 years solely on preparation for the inquiry - with her advising lawyers paid by the taxpayers.
Overall, it is just the lawyers who have profited throughout these 25 years, win or lose - and so it continues..........
As an engineer, I confirm in advance the end result of a project, the cost of it, and the duration - lawyers do none of these.
Great work thank you.
Thank you so much. It's lovely of you to say that. That really helps motivate me to keep making videos for the channel.
I think your sound in this new home is very clear and has a slight sonority and tone that adds clarity -its actually quite unique or distinct…dont change it if you dont have too…sound geek here xx
PS you have a lovely handsome face and a demeanor to match.
Thank you so much. I am really needing feedback on my audio. When I started making videos for youtube my audio was really horrfic. Trouble is I listened to too much loud music via headphones in my youth (Damn you Sony Walkman) and I am also partially colour blind. Not a great combination when you are trying to be content creator. I end up looking like an oompa loompa because I can't colour grade properly and I sound like a smurf because I can't hear properly. It's good to know that the EQ I used this time miraculously worked so I'll keep that set up for future videos. And thank you so much for that lovely complement ... my mum put you up to that, didn't she?
Victim blaming is obviously okay, the POL did just that.
Yes, well said. A terrible irony in Vennell's defence, hey? I.e., it wasn't me guv, it was the system I tells ya (I said that in a cockney acccent, for some unexplainable reason). Thanks for posting. You are spot on.
another insightful analysis, thank you.
Thanks so much. That is lovely of you to post this. I really appreciate it.
And, sorry it has taken me so long to responsed - work has gone crazy.
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I will be the first to admit my mistrust of authority and corporate organisations sometimes leads me down rabbit holes of conspiracy theory.....I have Russian genes and to compound that, I am a sacked registered nurse of 40+ years for refusing the jab in NZ. Having established these factors, through following the inquiry, I heard to make the PO profitable, lots of branches would have to close....PO would have to pay compensations to the subpostmasters/mistresses. Are you with me so far?? Wouldn't it be great for PO if NOT only could PO close the branches without a compensation pay out BUT they got all that dosh by accusing the subbies of theft and false accounting and prosecute them through their own lawyers who din't have to disclose favourable evidence to the defence lawyers. Is it just me? Could the likes of Vennells et al be that evil?? Just asking. I would appreciate any feedback.
The main question might be: why has this happened? What was the key pivotal reason?
Yes, I love how you get to the big question so quickly. Why is the key question, I think.
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8:08 I agree, my observation watching her evidence live was that she was giving learnt responses.
Bit late to be commenting on this, but Paula Vennells is amongst quite a number of people "to blame". She had numerous predecessors; the Government had people on the board and supposedly safeguarding the public interest; there were chairpersons before that ghastly Perkins woman. During her tenure as chief executive, Mrs Vennells was culpable, certainly, along with the entire senior management team, in withholding information. Collectively, they exhibited classic codependent behaviour, buying into each others' bullshit, collaborating in an act they all believed in, because the act, the lie, was less embarrassing than the reality, the truth. Mrs Vennells needs a lot of therapy. Years, probably. In a prison cell.
She is clever but not smart.
I often wonder how she could fix things now.
Being honest would help but would probably put her in jail.
Of course, if she was actually a real Christian, that is exactly what she should do.
Yes, fair comment. I thought her church taught people to say sorry and ask for forgiveness. But, maybe it only applies to the flock. Thanks for engaging and posting :)
Vennells: Deliberate, carefully constructed obfuscation.
Nice put. Thanks for posting :)
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15:11. The lesson I learnt from the Inquiry is be ware of the “Mr Beer Traps”. And don’t tale comfort form Mr Beer’s considerable ability to mirror the language used by the witness, causing the witness to believe Mr Beer is only as smart as them…but he ‘is’ far smarter than most of them.
Excellent analysis, sir.
thanks so much. That sort of encouragement keeps me going
thanks for posting :)
4:40. Also the POL failed to find where the money went and who had it.
I really hate violence but PV really does have a face to slap.
I trust she is looking forward to her free B&B that she so deserves courtesy of HMP
Thanks for posting. I know exactly what you mean :)
I totally agree 💯
Maybe she can get a job in the prison mail sorting office seems apt
If they have one,for inmates mail
I'd suggest "victim blaming" versus "system blaming" as described here is a false dichotomy. Systems that reward sociopathic behaviour tend to attract and reward sociopaths - or at least, individuals who are willing/able to suppress their prosocial and empathetic impulses in favour of gaining personal rewards from the system. The key dimension is power. How far does the individual have the power to resist the system? In this case, Vennells clearly had the power to reject or change how the PO prosecutorial system worked. She chose not to do so.
Yes, really good comment. I think you are right. I presented it a bit like an either or to make the point but you are right to trouble that because things are rarely one thing or the other. So, nice critique, thank you. ")
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@@PaulDuckett sure, I appreciate the need spmetimes to present things in such a way. On another note, Gareth Jenkins' testimony made fascinating viewing in this context. How far were his intrinisic tendancies manipulated by POL and how far was he knowingly complicit?
After she left the post office she got a very high up job in the NHS. When it became common knowledge that she was implicated in the post office scandal, the NHS asked her to resign from her post there. She refused, and it was only after a high ranking employee of the NHS threatened to resign that Ms vennells finally stepped down. She obviously has a very high level of confidence in herself.
Yes ... over inflated confidence.
Good post. Thank you.
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Thank you
You're welcome :)
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First video of yours I’ve seen - I like your nuanced thoughtful analysis . Subscribed !
That's really lovely of you to tell me that. Thanks so much. Hey, I might just stick with this UA-cam thing after all :)
I hold no brief for Paula Vennels, but I think in your assessment of her psychology you ignore the fact that, from Nick Wallis's careful record of the disaster, almost 50% of the Horizon-related prosecutions took place before she even joined the Post Office, and over 30% more happened before she became CEO, I think she was culpable in that she moved from job to job in higher management in different industries before coming into the PO, and not looking at what was really going on there - like so many of the higher management, and especially the Civil Servants who laid down the directions for the PO as non-executive directors. Whatever else she blamed, it wasn't her predecessors as CEO who had presided over over the first 80% of the carnage.
In this case bad people did bad things. The problem arises because we’re conditioned to believe that well educated, highly paid “managers” are not the bad people.
Yep. We also think white collar crime is relatively harmless ... but it does way more social harm than blue collar crime.
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Spot on!
Fab! Thank you :)
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To have that many people at all ranks, indicates that certain traits such as compliance with superiors (yes men) or troublemakers with ethics, have been sought or filtered out by selection.
Yep, it is a fair conclusion. Thanks for posting that. It's a good point.
Remember the fictional additional balance could not be linked to a single transaction. How that got to court and out the other end, is mind blowing. Many thousands of pounds but the PO couldnt explain how they got this money. It wasn't for stamps. How come they didn't ask these questions or have a modicum of doubt even though they had just one set of data without external correlation.
Good point. thanks for posting :)
No contest, Beer by a knockout.
:)
"I didn't ask for that strategy", I just implemented it
Yep, stunning defence, hey!?
Fantastic analysis.
Thanks so much. That's the encouragement I need to keep going with the channel.
Guilty but do not make her the scapegoat - many other POL CEOs or chairmen were in position throughout the 25 years
System was primary, failure a corporation group think pushed it, incompetence or malpractice by many like Paula.
But yes, she was a victim too of sorts - of the complex technical computer blips, probably not made fully aware INITIALLY .
Thank you, that was really interesting.
Thanks so much for the encouragement.
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I’m confused. We have seen that Paula Venells has worked hard to weave a story where she is a victim. However, the facts and tone of past emails show a smart, calculating leader working to lay the story that benefits her regardless of the facts. The facts point to a manipulative individual who wanted a certain image to be portrayed for her own benefit repeatedly regardless of the impact on others. Why is it so hard to expose her? Why are we so accepting of the victim portrayal?
Yep, I agree. I'm going to draw that out in my next video which is comparing the testimonies of Vennells vs van den Bogerd :)
Bad bad people ,,not system. Baaaaaddd .
Yep, bad and not in a good way!
Attention seeking are we. I'll just fix.
Hiya John,
That's a lovely enigmatic comment. It's made me wonder if you are thinking I am the one seeking attention and if you are ... well ... yep, fair criticism.
PV asked for background on complainants mental health. How did she intend to pursue this? Phone hacking, private detectives, bribery to get data? Sounds illegal to me
Yes, lots of dodgy sounding stuff happening here. Lot of it going on behind the backs of subpostmasters ... which is the core of the problem.
750;pages a middling sized book by Steven King then
An act of fiction to be read either horror
Bravo, excellent reflection and yes, shoud be considered a piece of fiction in the horror genre. I like you style :)
Too trusting…typical lazy boss she hoped her Rottweilers would do her dirty work for her.
Yep, she released the hounds and the hounds decided to just crap all over the place!
Who's in charge of the system .
Thanks so much for posting. Yes, absolutely a key question. Wish I knew ...
Stumbled on your channel earlier, really enjoyed this, you have a very interesting and engaging way of breaking things down so I'm subscribed and going to go back and have a nosey through your other content.
and yes Screw you PV, awful woman !!
I love JB though amazing forensic mind ;-D
Thanks so much, that it so lovely of you to tell me that. Hope you enjoy the other videos on the channel. A bit of a mix of opinion pieces and also lots of my teaching materials - I can't stand how higher education is only available to people who pay, so I make all my teaching videos accessible to the public .... though I am not sure the public wants them!
Yes, JB is amazing. I think I might have a bit of a crush on him! He's actually got great comedic timing - his pointing out the typo made by Jarnal Singh (who wrote copulate rather than capitulate in an email) was hilarious.
Albert Speer used this defence, I didn't know about the death camps. I should have looked deeper but I didn't look and I am therefore guilty. He escaped hanging with that tactic.
Yep, very interesting example. Many thanks for posting. We have much to learn from history, hey? :) p
She was shafted by everyone who worked for her. She should have been aware that Horizon when selected by the Government in 1999 was never fit-for-purpose and the hope was that the Fujitso post-development would address the major flaws before anybody noticed. Being naive and too trusting she played into their hands. Then Fujitso well and truly shafted PO seeing PO as rich pickings. To note that the decade before JV was when the seed was planted and many issues stemmed from this period so those in charge at the time are equally culpable.
One point not made so far is that Horizon was meant to detect genuine fraud so mind-set and all processes in place were just doing what it was meant to be doing. No one asked why it was so widespread.
Yes, the history behind this is very important. Without it, we can't make proper sense of what has happened. So, thanks for bringing that into the discussion.
... would they all stop blaming the Post Office.
Yep, the institution they all told us they love is now apparently the thing they are all to happy to give a kicking.
The Post Office is not a sentient being - the employees were/are.
Yes. So interesting in the inquiry how witness refer to the Post Office doing something and the counsel having to interrupt them by asking, who do you mean by 'the Post Office'.
Vennells will be "found not fit to stand trial", by the time charges are brought.
Even shoulder pads and a fancy brooch can only get you so far in the Public Sector.
Yep, and it is usually my lot (psychologists) who save them in that regard.
Good video i enjoyed it.
We change tack not tact 👍
ahh, yes. Tack not tact. I've always been accused of lacking the second of those :)
thanks for posting :)
obedience leads to deadly outcomes, yet we live in a society and culture that demands this and the cost of disobedience is job ,career or freedom, so can we scapegoat individuals without protecting their right to question or decline assent. The weight of the law points to unquestioning obedience as default. i think we must learn the lessons and withdraw the pecuniary advantages of compliance. the human mind has unending propensity to shift responsability from themselves
The system was to blame
The system that rewards incompetence and or corruption
Yep, the system was doing that. You are right, the system enabled Vennells behaviour and there were many people in the system who helped that happen.
Editing your videos is a good thing. The first minute, please.🙄
Yep, I did think not to include that and know how time poor most people are ... but I just wanted to explain away my poor audio and my lack of videos of late. But, fair comment. I do struggle with this stuff. As an academic I've been taught to speak on a topic 1-2hours non stop (called lecturing). We are only now learning that most of our students feel asleep after the first 10 minutes of our lectures and we might need to get to the point a bit quicker!
Brilliant end summary 😂
Thank you :)
Word soup from Vennells Mr Beer.
I bet she needed a beer after that.
Love the pun ... nice! :) You should write my scripts ... I love puns :)
Interesting considered analysis here after the dust has settled.
Thanks so much for your encouragement. Helps me keep going with these videos.
Thanks for this - a Stanley Milgram explanation or the public lynching of Paula??
In fact this is more like a 'cult of belief' in Horizon by Paula, Sue, Alice and Mandy. Cults of belief need sacrifices and SPMs fitted the bill. Cult members find it very difficult to realise their beliefs are erroneous. It is no coincidence that Paula has religious pretentious. Talking her out of Horizon is like trying to talk her out of Christianity.
Nice reflections. Yes, the religious angle is very pertinent, whether cults or organised reglions. These were, essentially, faith based convictions, as in not based on evidence.
"Victim blaming" in this case would be blaming the sub post-masters, no?
Yep, you are right. I think Vennells thought she was the victim though. I think she's a bit mixed up about that. :)
p
The poor woman lost all of her employment, eight years on the dole, she must have lost her house!
Yep :) Maybe we should hold a fund raiser for her :)
Dr Todd Grande has a range of cacti arranged behind when giving his analysis, often on crimes... Just an idea anyway.
Ohhhh, cacti would be a good look. :)
p
Yes thank you
You involved in a discipline that has lost its credibility.
Thanks for posting Geoffrey. Yes, I fear you are right.
Whats with these PO senior women executives ... high and mighty hypocrites .. these stereotypical cruel women .. over promoted .. they escalated their commitment and doubled down instead of doing the right thing
Perhaps out to prove they were tougher than the men?
It's not over yet,this police Will step in and Paula might just be in a cosy cell for Christmas 🎄🎁 2027.
This has got more to go than an enquiry.complicated lengthy criminal prosecutions to follow
I agree with what you are saying about folk in positions of excutive power, not with the gendered part of it. But I appreciate your comment and I agree, they just doubled down when they realised they were in error. Nicely said.