I have a sneaking suspicion that people are having a tougher time on the difficulty of combat because during the exploration phase they are rushing through to get to the fun of the story book. Our first game we rushed from story point to story point not caring as much if we were exhausted or injured. But if played more methodical plays right at a fine level that Zee was speaking on. Absolutely agree with rulebook. Tip and tricks and Artifacts drove me nuts. Love the game. What’s interesting is the fun of the stories is what encourages you to not be as methodical so it kinda fights against itself in mechanics. So a bit sloppy or overindulgent in design in that regard.
It is a common joke on the channel that when someone gives a lower score than the other reviewers (even if is just .5 less than tve other rating) then you think the game is garbage
Combat can be pretty punishing until you sort out how to approach it, or until you get your characters set up a bit better - after that it stops being so rough most of the time, though. Stuff that's worth keeping in mind: * You _really_ want to get better weapons (either bought at market or as adventure cards), as well as things that let you add to drawing fate for attacks, redraw fate, negate damage, etc. It makes a huge difference. In the campaign of it we did so far it took us about one run through the event deck to get to this point, but I suspect you can get there faster if you approach things better. * Try to go into combat with command on hand. Going into it without any is going to make it really rough, since you can't mitigate draw luck, add to attacks for hard enemies, etc. * Be mindful of the synergy tokens. Sequencing attacks in the right way to get synergy tokens to the right characters can be the difference between being able to one-shot multiple enemies, or taking a ton of counterattack damage. Once you're decent on those three points it becomes a lot easier to one-shot enemies, meaning you don't have to deal with their counterattacks, or to at least quickly knock out their bonus damage / worst extra effects.
I'm truly baffled by the fanfare this game gets. We so wanted to like it and were big fans of Near & Far and Above & Below, but we just could not get into this. It felt so aimless sailing around encountering one side quest after another. The gameplay is awful, you're forced to sail back to port and repair after nearly every combat, the characters are boring, and the story is terrible - if there even is one? It certainly didn't feel like it. Also this also is not a co-op game, rather it's one of those strictly solo games where the elements are just divided up between a number of players (imagine playing a video game in your living room where you pass the only controller around amongst your friends). We quit halfway through the campaign and quickly sold.
Thanks for pointing out the need for a BGG deep dive. I'll read up on all the FAQs, tips and tricks before setting off on my first campaign tomorrow! Excited to get into it!
The problem with the rule book is not self correcting because a year from now, when I want to take out the game and play it again, I will have forgotten most of these rules corrections that I found on BGG and I'll have to research all of that again. So it's a major problem.
I make cheat sheets for my games just for this reason. It really helps getting games to the table, sine you can just scan the cheat sheet before playing rather than having to reread the whole rulebook and/or google stuff
@@martinba9629 seriously...? I saw another (positive) review and was really stoked for this, but a bad rulebook is a deal breaker... Different strokes...
Thanks for a great review - can't wait to play my own copy! But Roy! Stop tapping your foot while recording! There's an annoying tapping noise in the background while your whole body is shaking!
There's sth broken with the sound when the 4 of you show. One of you is leaking some sort of static noise. Maybe the folks with airpods? Otherwise, great video folks!
Isn't this just a fantastic game. I backed in on Kickstarter. It arrived on a Wednesday. My wife and I began the game on that Saturday. It is our new Saturday morning gaming activity, replacing our "Feld Up on Saturday" gaming. We've yet to play for less than 3 hours per session.
@@nancyann1090 I works very well as a 2 player game. 90% of my gaming is 2 player with my wife. There is a lot to keep track of though. Be prepared for that. But it's well worth it.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Temporarily. Every Saturday morning my wife and I begin the day with a large cup of coffee and a Stefan Feld game. We call it, "Feld up on Saturday."
I think the bigger the project, the longer it is in development. The longer a project is in development after a certain point, the worse the rulebook may be. Because, things that the play testers and developers have come to know through familiarity don’t get spelled out as clearly as they should. I’ve seen this in many games. The worst offender in recent memory from my collection was transatlantic. Now, that wasn’t a huge project, but it was in development for a very long time;
I don’t necessarily agree, as designers like Uwe, and Knizia both often talk at length about developing a game and mechanic for many many years sometimes longer. Perhap it’s two different kinds of development. The one you are referring to I’ll call rushed development as in this Kickstarter is already late and our deadline is approaching type of thing. I only say this because Knizia games are so polished rulebook-wise even on his designs that have taken a long period of time it’s seemless. I think it’s just the quality of the teacher. Often times I can give you directions to a place if you asked but if you asked me to write them down It would be a mess as that’s something I’m not good at or used to. Not just this but if my brother teaches a game the rulebook laided out very matter of factory and more analytically he will usually teach better and if the rulebook is laid out more thematically I will teach the game better. I think it might just be a person to person thing and I would wager that this extends to rulebook writing aswell.
I'm still super salty that the card sleeves I bought in the Kickstarter don't fit in the box when it was advertised that they would. That's the _only_ reason I bought them :'(
Turn Magnetic box 90° and the sleeved Adventure and Quest cards will fit in two columns. Even the ones from the expansions. You will just have to put event cards elsewhere, but those are not kept in order. This was a nearly undetectable manufacturer's error because the magnetic box is 1-2 mm too narrow. Prototype box did not have this problem.
I completely disagree with the combat being too difficult. It's tricky, but it's very possible to one round stomp so many encounters by just using synergies and risk management principles. Even without decent equipment. I would bet, that if you are having a hard time with combat, you are playing where you just tell your players to take turns whacking the enemy without any plan or strategy. Or are just leaving the starting area too soon. Because all of the early combats are designed with a lack of equipment in mind and are very doable while giving you some early equipment to use later.
Looking this review today (yep 3 years late in the battle) and finally got the game in french, I'm really happy to say that most of the problems mentioned about the rule book and the tips & tricks are now corrected and included !
Just an opinion for those potentially interested in the game. I have everything for the game, and it easily all fits in the box and inner boxes. Its also intuitive where stuff goes, helping with setup and breakdown. If you just don't like the tuck boxes, that's obviously okay too, but Tom seemed to imply it's an hassle when you have the expansion and kickstarter extras, with which I don't agree.
I'm with Zee and Roy on this one, fantastic and immersive game that expects and rewards repeated, experiential play. I don't know if it's my favourite Red Raven offering yet, but it certainly has captured my imagination. I'm not quite as irked by the rulebook and difficulty as the guys seem to be, I found all my questions were answered by a thorough reading of the rulebook (though at times I forgot where it was referenced, and had to reread the book). I actually enjoy the combat and challenge mechanisms, it's a very rewarding system. A solid 9/10, highly recommended.
I spent way too much time looking through the "Adventure" deck for those 4 starting cards and it turns out they are in the market deck. The rulebook says "7.) place the starting adventure cards near the ship board." I think having the components list refer to the adventure "deck" as Adventure "cards" just confused me. It also says they say "starting" on the back...but it's on the bottom right corner of the front of the card. Rule #7 is just a mess in general tbh. lol
I feel like I’m in the minority on this one: I didn’t like it. I played the heck out of it for a week and just didn’t like it. It’s too random, it feels like work, there’s no stand up moments, and resources are too scarce. I didn’t like living in this world and sold it on. But I am soooooooo in the minority on this: it’s a gorgeous game with a lot of content that people think is Ryan Laukats best game. It’s not for me, but it might be for you.
I'd be more worried if everybody would love it :) So good to hear you had your issues with it! Luckily for me your issues were rather things I probably enjoy when my game gets here but still thanks for letting us know! :)
I didn't like it either but it sounds like for different reasons. The story is great but most of the mechanisms felt dull almost immediately and were just plain tedious towards the end.
It got stale after a single run for me, mainly because of the narrative. I wish it had more story arcs, more types of adventures, more different places to go etc.
Actually I'd guess it was Roy hitting the table with his leg, cause when I heard the sound, I blamed my bf for doing that and he was baffled why I'd think so :D
If you zoom in on Roy you can see he's shaking in rhythm with the sound. I think he's shaking his leg and his leg/foot is hitting the desk and the mic is picking it up.
I cannot believe yet another designer felt the need to make an overly punishing co-op game. Will none of these designers figure out that they will increase accessibility by offering varying levels of difficulty. The fact Ryan had to errata an easy mode after the fact is sad and indicative of a lack of foresight. Each time I see a co-op game I am interested in, I ask the designers the levels of difficulty. If they can't be bothered to make the game easier for new and younger players, I'm out. What a shame.
This game is actually quite easy. The first quarter of the game is a little challenging but once you grab a few weapons and create a command generating engine the thing is a cake walk
It is not overly punishing. It's more like Zelda where you want to stay near your starting area and level up a bit before moving further away. It tells you in the Rulebook that the further away you move, the harder the challenges get.
@@jasdale3856 I agree with Shawn, plus three of the four guys specifically said the game was too hard, so much so that the designer created an errata. That points to a flaw in the game's design. I'll believe that as there will always be people that claim a game is "Easy". Hell, I rarely lose at Robinson Crusoe, a game Tom claims to have never won.
When I played, we house ruled that anything that removes fatigue will just remove double fatigue if it's present. Imo this made the game way more fun and manageable
Really wish I had backed this one on KS it seems to be an extra 20% to buy just the retail version without any of the KS bits (UK) so I feel if I pick it up i'm always going to feel like I didn't get a good deal.
well eu shipping was around 20$ so you will probably be a tad cheaper with retail. the KS stuff is nice though and imo a premium game just feels better with components like metal coins etc.
@@denisloebner4882 Yeah it's the equivalent of $140 with the expansion here so $20 more, no metal coins and no KS extras, might just have to wait a bit to pick this one up
@@kevins2726 oh wow thats a lot more. here in germany a retailer is offering it for 74 euros at the moment. best wait until shipping and brexit crap gets sorted i guess :-/
Finished our first (and last) campaign last week and my group did not like it. The world, story and art etc are all undeniably fantastic but goddam, the mechanisms are really dull. The combat is tedious (we didn't find it hard and we just used the same tactics/characters over and over), the rondel/worker placement thing that is the ship may as well be automated with how little decision making there is to do there, there is a lot of stuff that we just never really used (discarding cards to buff damage, the resource stack on the deck, many of the enemy combat modifiers we could just ignore) which has a knock on effect of making certain upgrades, market cards and even whole characters feel superfluous and made the overall game feel a bit bloated. We pushed through to finish the story (the ending of which was a bit weird with characters doing things that seemed counter to how that had been developed up to that point) but I can't see myself ever playing it again.
I’m glad to hear that the ending wasn’t worth it, because we had the exact same feelings/thoughts as you and quit the game about a dozen event cards before the end. I sold my copy at the BGG marketplace within one day of posting.
@@jeffus Yep, we quit about halfway through the campaign. Like you say, the gameplay mechanisms are really dull, most things may as well be automated, boring characters, and I skipped to read the 'good' ending and was so glad that we didn't waste any more time. I am truly baffled by the fanfare this game gets.
True that some of the rule book's mysteries will only be revealed once you get through your first play through AND do some deep bgg research. But overall I found the experience to be very rewarding. I only found 6 totems in my first solo campaign of 13 hours. I do plan on going through it once more solo, and maybe even once again with a group. But I am not sure if I will ever really experience the whole game, and some discoveries will forever be lost to me. I am very happy I skipped the expansion because knowing what I know now, I would never get to it, or get full value out of it. Combat. Is. Tough. The counter attack rule is brutal and I hate it. In my next campaign I think I will just not use it to make for a more enjoyable experience. The combat is good, but really I am there for the stories and not the combat. 8.5/10.
what do you mean knowing what you know now you would not get to the expansion without spoilers if possible? I pre-ordered the game with the expansion and I'm curious to know why you don't think you're missing on something?
@@mikeCs333 I just meant that I personally will never get through all that the base game has to offer, so no need to add more content through the optional expansion.
Man, I get you, but some of the most memorable RPG moments were the deaths of some beloved characters. The narrator/DM would kinda give the player a chance when things got unexpectedly tough and the character was high level, but if the dice were bad, then that's it.
@@Ariranhaa Sometimes the purpose of a character is to die to prove something or to achieve something. When you need to prove that the villain is evil or the monster is dangerous, characters die. Sometimes, a story that is meant to be dramatic and tragic, will require to kill a character. But most of times, bad writers kill characters when they do not know what to do with them. I recall a cheap theatrical play where you had people trapped in an elevator. That gave the opportunity for characters to interact and know the story of each of the characters and their inner crisis. And once that was completed, the story started to go in circles and repeat itself. And at the end, out of nowhere, one character went crazy and killed all characters. It was dumb. I also recall a writer talking about a similar tale where there was a bus with passengers, where the writer lost control and did not know what to do with characters, so he threw the bus off a cliff. That was cheap.
Thanks for the investment of your time to make this review! I was surprised how high you all rated it. Seems like one must invest many hours just to know how much time you and your friends have wasted figuring out how to play. I understand that this can be great for those who enjoy that process. I cannot invest the time for this type of game.
Roy, I love you, man, but the audible nervous leg... :) I feel for you as I have the same thing and mine is incessant. It might be a good idea to try and find a mount for your mic so it can't be heard. Great review though. I love this 4 squares format.
The walkthrough was problematic for me. It would be one thing if I could choose not to do it and just read the rulebook, but it says you HAVE to do the walkthrough to teach the game. Then, at the end, it says you still need to read the rulebook. Then why do the walkthrough at all? I've only done the walkthrough. Had to stop to read the rulebook now and haven't read it yet. So basically, my only experience has been the walkthrough and I'm feeling "meh" about continuing. I'm surprised you guys didn't mention the walkthrough. Did you skip it, push through it, enjoy it?
ZEE: There is no Poison condition in this game. There is Venom, which can be cured by Gregory, the Doctor. So I do not know if you were joking when you said nobody cures poison. Otherwise I am with you on this game and agree that the rulebook is the biggest problem, but it is self-eliminating. I did dive deep into videos and BGG forums so a lot of my questions were answered early on. One thing that is hard to convey is the quality of components. Until you actually handle them it is hard to see just how good and sturdy the cardboard chits and tokens are. The crew cards, condition tokens, etc. can seem flimsy on video, but are actually very thick and sturdy.
The way Roy described going around and finding stuff so that the next time you know to go there first to then get to the market, etc makes me think of Metroid. Zelda seems like a great comparison but Zelda is pretty straightforward usually on what equipment you find when. Metroid encourages you to find secrets and get things out of order to play the game differently.
What Zelda are you talking about? Zelda Breath of the Wild and specially Tears of the Kingdom are many light years ahead of all Metroids combined in terms of finding secrets and get things out of order to play differently.
This isn't a random dungeon delver. You don't get to poke your nose into every nook unless you're sure you're ready for a serious sudden combat. Easy mode is not the solution, careful and meticulous play is. It's a masterpiece except the rulebook and for the next game, I'd like to have some more crew interaction. Maybe love stories, fights etc.?
The rulebook criticism and missing tips from the get go seem to connect with the comment wrt to "Zelda style" analogy at the beginning of the video: In the olden days, there was no decent manual (well, or we never read it) an no tutorial, and you figured out the game rules slowly, and that was often frustrating. And you got tips and strategy from outside sources because of that. Should that happen nowadays? Not really I say, but maybe some of us can get some nostalgic vibes from it. :-D
Same here... Hopefully not too many more months, I can't wait! my retail preorder says, roughly 2 more months until it arrives, but that date can often change....
The game is cool, but priced way too high for the amount of stuff you get regarding components and the actual story. Too much bucks for the amount of table time you'll get out of it. Also, the world is too bland and unexciting, and the characters are straight up boring.
It was in the rule book that after the events the cards are coming off the characters... but it is in only one place and I only know this from watching another streamer who also bashed this and then went back and found it in the rule book. It was near the end in a tips section.
That would fall in line with Mike's Zelda comparison, which is pretty cool. I know I explored my way into some quick deaths in Breath of the Wild, and I would mark my map with a skull to remember it was dangerous there. It was pretty rewarding to return there later and come away unscathed because I was more powerful and had more knowledge of the combat.
You are told in the rule book that the further you go from the starting zone, the harder the challenges get. So do not rush away before exploring some starting areas and upgrading your crew members with better weapons and ability cards.
A nice mix of opinions. For me personally, it was the best story telling game I have ever played and the best game of any kind I have played in a long while. The combat is hard though and we got slaughtered twice in our first play through which did speed up the game. That said, we have been doing much better in combat in our second play through now that we understand all of the mechanics and have not died yet. Of course we are also 1/3 of the way through the game and have yet to locate a totem this time around, so maybe we are just on a vacation cruise at this point. At least we are having fun exploring in a different direction.
My biggest problem with this game is logistics. This is a game that expects you to fail one or two times through it to learn more ideal paths if you want to actually "beat" it and get the good endings. And the time you spend setting up, packing up, and churning through the start to get back to that sweet spot in the middle. Add into that characters that don't even have a single note to them, since all of the narrative actions are assumed to be the shared captain. I would love a game like this where each player had one character and that character actually made some choices, but what you got is a pile of numbers, and thats too bad. Edit: I also don't like an exploration game that punishes you for exploring, both with a ticking clock and challenges you can't overcome without redoing starting area stuff over and over on future games to get the gear and equipment you need to handle later sections
See we thought the game was too easy. In general I think it shows it was really lacking an ability to change the difficulty based on the group. To have a new Co-op game with no way to really scale difficulty is surprising.
It's about right for us, but I think I'll only play on "brutal" from now on (which isn't any more difficult, tbh). We never came close to losing a fight first campaign.
I'm torn because I really like Above and Below but really did NOT enjoy Near and Far, which everyone makes out to be the obviously better game. So when people say they like Sleeping Gods, I wonder if it's Near and Far syndrome-or if I'd actually enjoy it.
I only got to tie point where Tom talks about wishing the tips where in the rulebook. I know he prefaced with "this may not be everybody", but it made me think exactly of what Mike said... "Like Zelda". And I agree. I don't think we need to beat games right away. 12 and a half hours is great amount of play time but I feel like there is even more. Imagine if you beat Zelda or other adventure story games the first time through? How fun would that be? I find the most enjoyment I'm learning the game, figuring out how to overcome the obstacles, trying new things, taking a different route. Now if after 10 plays I can't get past the se point in the game I could see that as frustrating and might search out some tips for others (which in itself used to be so much fun). In school passing along tips. Glory days. Anywho back to the video... Where Tom prolly says something in the very next sentence that makes this comment irrelevant 🙃
My sister and I found the focus on combat and its mechanics too heavy and integral to the game compared to Near and Far and Above and Below. It was a chore we didn't enjoy.
I've read one sentence on BGG about about how to manage the difficulty that changed it for me: "Your characters are resources". The games is meant to played with characters being exhausted or unconscious half the time. I would collect exhaustion and damage and distribute it evenly, than I would dock at a harbour and visit the Inn. Also note, that there is no penalty for a character being almost unconscious and the doctor has a lot of tricks to stabilise people and keep them running.
Tom's overview seems meh to me. I want to want this, but I need to see more of an initial playthrough. I will have to find one and I am willing to be spoiled a little to be inspired to pick this up.
@@JonoNZBoardGamer The review is very out of date because the game changed so much. Crew boards, shipboard, Combat, etc. are all somewhat different. There have been a lot of more recent reviews.
Wow Mike and Tom really hated this game. I kid, I kid! My copy came in recently and I'm really looking forward to playing. Rodney has a 40 minute "How To Play" video for the game posted which tells you how deep the ruleset is. You bet your chickens I'll be watching that as well as reading the rulebook. 😃
Without having played the game, the inherent issues here would bother me a great deal, and they seem to be more or less “brushed off” in favor of pure enjoyment value.
The game just came out and they already got an expansion? Good Lord! This is going to be another Dominion. Nope. I want to like this but I'm trying to stay away from games that can be money pits with all the expansions.
@@knighthawk3749 I don't tend to play games solo. I'd rather play video games if I have time to play a solo campaign board game. Video games still do stories and immersion way better
@@cartergreen2309 Normally I would agree, but to me it feels like an exception. Sometimes I prefer the tactile feel of physical components over the digital ephemera. Plus Covid makes it harder to get a group together.
@@knighthawk3749 yeah I could understand that reason and yes it is hard to get together. It's not so bad for me since my family is 1 of my 2 groups but my second group hasn't gotten together hardly at all. Yeah I understand why people do but campaign games just are a no go for me because of that. I'd just rather play a video game. The only exception I have is Journeys in Middle Earth and its only because it's LotR.
I realized when they said you discard ability cards at the end of the event deck you lose them not being in the rule book is wrong. It is in page 37....as An afterthought. It should certainly be more prominent.
We made 2 changes that really helped. You can use blocking on your weapon at the end of the round monster attacks. Also we never pay command to join another player's challenge. Small changes that make the game still challenging but less harsh.
Well well, nice to see the positiv opinions across the board. I'm still waiting for the game to arrive here in germany but after this review, I'm eager to play it :). Oh, and nice to have four different people giving an opinion on this game. I guess it is a LOT of resources / playing time putting into a game like this with four people playing it individually, but I appreciate it, thanks.
Love these reviews. Really helps seeing the different viewpoints.
I have a sneaking suspicion that people are having a tougher time on the difficulty of combat because during the exploration phase they are rushing through to get to the fun of the story book. Our first game we rushed from story point to story point not caring as much if we were exhausted or injured. But if played more methodical plays right at a fine level that Zee was speaking on.
Absolutely agree with rulebook. Tip and tricks and Artifacts drove me nuts. Love the game.
What’s interesting is the fun of the stories is what encourages you to not be as methodical so it kinda fights against itself in mechanics. So a bit sloppy or overindulgent in design in that regard.
Why does Mike think this is hot garbage? ;)
It is a common joke on the channel that when someone gives a lower score than the other reviewers (even if is just .5 less than tve other rating) then you think the game is garbage
@@equdarkmatter-2621 I know. I was following up on the joke Mike made on this video about his really high score not being as high as the others.
Omg sorry it waa 2 am an could not see the so obvious sarcasm lmao
@@equdarkmatter-2621 lol no worries! We've all been there ☺️
Combat can be pretty punishing until you sort out how to approach it, or until you get your characters set up a bit better - after that it stops being so rough most of the time, though. Stuff that's worth keeping in mind:
* You _really_ want to get better weapons (either bought at market or as adventure cards), as well as things that let you add to drawing fate for attacks, redraw fate, negate damage, etc. It makes a huge difference. In the campaign of it we did so far it took us about one run through the event deck to get to this point, but I suspect you can get there faster if you approach things better.
* Try to go into combat with command on hand. Going into it without any is going to make it really rough, since you can't mitigate draw luck, add to attacks for hard enemies, etc.
* Be mindful of the synergy tokens. Sequencing attacks in the right way to get synergy tokens to the right characters can be the difference between being able to one-shot multiple enemies, or taking a ton of counterattack damage.
Once you're decent on those three points it becomes a lot easier to one-shot enemies, meaning you don't have to deal with their counterattacks, or to at least quickly knock out their bonus damage / worst extra effects.
I'm truly baffled by the fanfare this game gets. We so wanted to like it and were big fans of Near & Far and Above & Below, but we just could not get into this. It felt so aimless sailing around encountering one side quest after another. The gameplay is awful, you're forced to sail back to port and repair after nearly every combat, the characters are boring, and the story is terrible - if there even is one? It certainly didn't feel like it.
Also this also is not a co-op game, rather it's one of those strictly solo games where the elements are just divided up between a number of players (imagine playing a video game in your living room where you pass the only controller around amongst your friends).
We quit halfway through the campaign and quickly sold.
The doctor character (Gregory Little) most certainly can get rid of poison (venom) tokens. Sorry, Zee. ❤
Thanks for pointing out the need for a BGG deep dive. I'll read up on all the FAQs, tips and tricks before setting off on my first campaign tomorrow! Excited to get into it!
The problem with the rule book is not self correcting because a year from now, when I want to take out the game and play it again, I will have forgotten most of these rules corrections that I found on BGG and I'll have to research all of that again. So it's a major problem.
There is already an updated PDF book. And PDF will keep getting updated. So you can always update it yourself.
After looking it up on BGG, take a pencil and scribble notes into the rulebook. I've done it lot's of times. No one needs a pristine rule book.
I make cheat sheets for my games just for this reason. It really helps getting games to the table, sine you can just scan the cheat sheet before playing rather than having to reread the whole rulebook and/or google stuff
@@martinba9629 seriously...? I saw another (positive) review and was really stoked for this, but a bad rulebook is a deal breaker... Different strokes...
Roy, you're in charge for the audio and visuals in these videos right? Why is your mic always so much louder than the others?
Thanks for a great review - can't wait to play my own copy!
But Roy! Stop tapping your foot while recording! There's an annoying tapping noise in the background while your whole body is shaking!
Roy has to stop shaking his leg. You can hear the beat constantly coming in...
Yes! Extremely annoying 😞
I thought it was a war drum :D
Was gonna post this as well, someone tell Roy to stop bouncing his leg.
I didn't hear anything on my end.
Didn't notice.
There's sth broken with the sound when the 4 of you show. One of you is leaking some sort of static noise. Maybe the folks with airpods?
Otherwise, great video folks!
Isn't this just a fantastic game. I backed in on Kickstarter. It arrived on a Wednesday. My wife and I began the game on that Saturday. It is our new Saturday morning gaming activity, replacing our "Feld Up on Saturday" gaming. We've yet to play for less than 3 hours per session.
It replaced FELD UP??! 😃
So this works well as a two player game? I would be interested in something my husband and I could play together,
@@nancyann1090 I works very well as a 2 player game. 90% of my gaming is 2 player with my wife. There is a lot to keep track of though. Be prepared for that. But it's well worth it.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Temporarily. Every Saturday morning my wife and I begin the day with a large cup of coffee and a Stefan Feld game. We call it, "Feld up on Saturday."
I was not familiar with this game but seeing characters in a game that look like me and even have the same first name as me, makes me very happy.
I think the bigger the project, the longer it is in development. The longer a project is in development after a certain point, the worse the rulebook may be. Because, things that the play testers and developers have come to know through familiarity don’t get spelled out as clearly as they should. I’ve seen this in many games. The worst offender in recent memory from my collection was transatlantic. Now, that wasn’t a huge project, but it was in development for a very long time;
I don’t necessarily agree, as designers like Uwe, and Knizia both often talk at length about developing a game and mechanic for many many years sometimes longer. Perhap it’s two different kinds of development. The one you are referring to I’ll call rushed development as in this Kickstarter is already late and our deadline is approaching type of thing.
I only say this because Knizia games are so polished rulebook-wise even on his designs that have taken a long period of time it’s seemless.
I think it’s just the quality of the teacher. Often times I can give you directions to a place if you asked but if you asked me to write them down It would be a mess as that’s something I’m not good at or used to. Not just this but if my brother teaches a game the rulebook laided out very matter of factory and more analytically he will usually teach better and if the rulebook is laid out more thematically I will teach the game better. I think it might just be a person to person thing and I would wager that this extends to rulebook writing aswell.
Page 37 on strategy tips mentions that you will discard all ability cards. I was surprised though too the first time the event deck ran out.
Yeah I was like...I am not through the first time yet and I know the ability cards are going away.
I'm still super salty that the card sleeves I bought in the Kickstarter don't fit in the box when it was advertised that they would. That's the _only_ reason I bought them :'(
Turn Magnetic box 90° and the sleeved Adventure and Quest cards will fit in two columns. Even the ones from the expansions. You will just have to put event cards elsewhere, but those are not kept in order. This was a nearly undetectable manufacturer's error because the magnetic box is 1-2 mm too narrow. Prototype box did not have this problem.
I completely disagree with the combat being too difficult. It's tricky, but it's very possible to one round stomp so many encounters by just using synergies and risk management principles. Even without decent equipment.
I would bet, that if you are having a hard time with combat, you are playing where you just tell your players to take turns whacking the enemy without any plan or strategy. Or are just leaving the starting area too soon. Because all of the early combats are designed with a lack of equipment in mind and are very doable while giving you some early equipment to use later.
Looking this review today (yep 3 years late in the battle) and finally got the game in french, I'm really happy to say that most of the problems mentioned about the rule book and the tips & tricks are now corrected and included !
Just an opinion for those potentially interested in the game. I have everything for the game, and it easily all fits in the box and inner boxes. Its also intuitive where stuff goes, helping with setup and breakdown. If you just don't like the tuck boxes, that's obviously okay too, but Tom seemed to imply it's an hassle when you have the expansion and kickstarter extras, with which I don't agree.
I'm with Zee and Roy on this one, fantastic and immersive game that expects and rewards repeated, experiential play. I don't know if it's my favourite Red Raven offering yet, but it certainly has captured my imagination. I'm not quite as irked by the rulebook and difficulty as the guys seem to be, I found all my questions were answered by a thorough reading of the rulebook (though at times I forgot where it was referenced, and had to reread the book). I actually enjoy the combat and challenge mechanisms, it's a very rewarding system. A solid 9/10, highly recommended.
I spent way too much time looking through the "Adventure" deck for those 4 starting cards and it turns out they are in the market deck.
The rulebook says "7.) place the starting adventure cards near the ship board."
I think having the components list refer to the adventure "deck" as Adventure "cards" just confused me.
It also says they say "starting" on the back...but it's on the bottom right corner of the front of the card.
Rule #7 is just a mess in general tbh. lol
Did Tom forget to turn on his microphone???
I feel like I’m in the minority on this one: I didn’t like it. I played the heck out of it for a week and just didn’t like it. It’s too random, it feels like work, there’s no stand up moments, and resources are too scarce. I didn’t like living in this world and sold it on. But I am soooooooo in the minority on this: it’s a gorgeous game with a lot of content that people think is Ryan Laukats best game. It’s not for me, but it might be for you.
I'd be more worried if everybody would love it :) So good to hear you had your issues with it! Luckily for me your issues were rather things I probably enjoy when my game gets here but still thanks for letting us know! :)
I didn't like it either but it sounds like for different reasons. The story is great but most of the mechanisms felt dull almost immediately and were just plain tedious towards the end.
It got stale after a single run for me, mainly because of the narrative. I wish it had more story arcs, more types of adventures, more different places to go etc.
Wow 9 handed solo? Fuck no.....
Someone shaking and the mic picked it up...I’m assuming it’s Roy...
I thought someone was hammering something outside 😂
Actually I'd guess it was Roy hitting the table with his leg, cause when I heard the sound, I blamed my bf for doing that and he was baffled why I'd think so :D
Its always Roy he tends to drum when not talking on cam
If you zoom in on Roy you can see he's shaking in rhythm with the sound. I think he's shaking his leg and his leg/foot is hitting the desk and the mic is picking it up.
I think 4 squares is a great Miami dice 2.0
One of the very best game I've ever played. Laukat finally nailed it.
he already nailed it back in eight minute empire legends for me lol
Loved above and below . I didn’t like near and far . Hope I like this one .
@@Slyfox1775 agreed! This and Above & Below are in my Top 10 all-time. The world-building captured here is unbelievably good.
Personally, I loved Empires of the Void II and Haven. Now I want to get The Ancient World Second Edition 😵.
Haven't played any other games by him 😅.
Have City Of Iron V1 on my glory display shelf...
I cannot believe yet another designer felt the need to make an overly punishing co-op game. Will none of these designers figure out that they will increase accessibility by offering varying levels of difficulty. The fact Ryan had to errata an easy mode after the fact is sad and indicative of a lack of foresight. Each time I see a co-op game I am interested in, I ask the designers the levels of difficulty. If they can't be bothered to make the game easier for new and younger players, I'm out. What a shame.
@@shawnhilliard Some people don't like apps in board games... (including me. I'd never buy this game without the physical encounter book)
This was why I canceled my Frostpunk pledge. I know they weren't hurting by me leaving, but everything they said regarding difficulty turned me off.
This game is actually quite easy. The first quarter of the game is a little challenging but once you grab a few weapons and create a command generating engine the thing is a cake walk
It is not overly punishing. It's more like Zelda where you want to stay near your starting area and level up a bit before moving further away. It tells you in the Rulebook that the further away you move, the harder the challenges get.
@@jasdale3856 I agree with Shawn, plus three of the four guys specifically said the game was too hard, so much so that the designer created an errata. That points to a flaw in the game's design. I'll believe that as there will always be people that claim a game is "Easy". Hell, I rarely lose at Robinson Crusoe, a game Tom claims to have never won.
When I played, we house ruled that anything that removes fatigue will just remove double fatigue if it's present. Imo this made the game way more fun and manageable
Really wish I had backed this one on KS it seems to be an extra 20% to buy just the retail version without any of the KS bits (UK) so I feel if I pick it up i'm always going to feel like I didn't get a good deal.
But you _will_ get s great game 😉
well eu shipping was around 20$ so you will probably be a tad cheaper with retail. the KS stuff is nice though and imo a premium game just feels better with components like metal coins etc.
@@denisloebner4882 Yeah it's the equivalent of $140 with the expansion here so $20 more, no metal coins and no KS extras, might just have to wait a bit to pick this one up
@@kevins2726 oh wow thats a lot more. here in germany a retailer is offering it for 74 euros at the moment. best wait until shipping and brexit crap gets sorted i guess :-/
Finished our first (and last) campaign last week and my group did not like it. The world, story and art etc are all undeniably fantastic but goddam, the mechanisms are really dull. The combat is tedious (we didn't find it hard and we just used the same tactics/characters over and over), the rondel/worker placement thing that is the ship may as well be automated with how little decision making there is to do there, there is a lot of stuff that we just never really used (discarding cards to buff damage, the resource stack on the deck, many of the enemy combat modifiers we could just ignore) which has a knock on effect of making certain upgrades, market cards and even whole characters feel superfluous and made the overall game feel a bit bloated. We pushed through to finish the story (the ending of which was a bit weird with characters doing things that seemed counter to how that had been developed up to that point) but I can't see myself ever playing it again.
I’m glad to hear that the ending wasn’t worth it, because we had the exact same feelings/thoughts as you and quit the game about a dozen event cards before the end. I sold my copy at the BGG marketplace within one day of posting.
@@jeffus Yep, we quit about halfway through the campaign. Like you say, the gameplay mechanisms are really dull, most things may as well be automated, boring characters, and I skipped to read the 'good' ending and was so glad that we didn't waste any more time. I am truly baffled by the fanfare this game gets.
Campaign book and branching story is good
Actual gameplay mechanics is just above mediocre, repetitive and nothing exciting.
True that some of the rule book's mysteries will only be revealed once you get through your first play through AND do some deep bgg research. But overall I found the experience to be very rewarding. I only found 6 totems in my first solo campaign of 13 hours. I do plan on going through it once more solo, and maybe even once again with a group. But I am not sure if I will ever really experience the whole game, and some discoveries will forever be lost to me. I am very happy I skipped the expansion because knowing what I know now, I would never get to it, or get full value out of it. Combat. Is. Tough. The counter attack rule is brutal and I hate it. In my next campaign I think I will just not use it to make for a more enjoyable experience. The combat is good, but really I am there for the stories and not the combat. 8.5/10.
what do you mean knowing what you know now you would not get to the expansion without spoilers if possible? I pre-ordered the game with the expansion and I'm curious to know why you don't think you're missing on something?
@@mikeCs333 I just meant that I personally will never get through all that the base game has to offer, so no need to add more content through the optional expansion.
Mike you got me with that Zelda quote.
tips and tricks should be more of learn as you play thing .. nice to be in the rule book but no need to be a "must"
When I play RPG, I never kill characters that are beloved to players. People love beloved characters and high stakes.
Man, I get you, but some of the most memorable RPG moments were the deaths of some beloved characters. The narrator/DM would kinda give the player a chance when things got unexpectedly tough and the character was high level, but if the dice were bad, then that's it.
@@Ariranhaa Sometimes the purpose of a character is to die to prove something or to achieve something.
When you need to prove that the villain is evil or the monster is dangerous, characters die.
Sometimes, a story that is meant to be dramatic and tragic, will require to kill a character.
But most of times, bad writers kill characters when they do not know what to do with them. I recall a cheap theatrical play where you had people trapped in an elevator. That gave the opportunity for characters to interact and know the story of each of the characters and their inner crisis. And once that was completed, the story started to go in circles and repeat itself. And at the end, out of nowhere, one character went crazy and killed all characters. It was dumb.
I also recall a writer talking about a similar tale where there was a bus with passengers, where the writer lost control and did not know what to do with characters, so he threw the bus off a cliff. That was cheap.
Thanks for the investment of your time to make this review! I was surprised how high you all rated it. Seems like one must invest many hours just to know how much time you and your friends have wasted figuring out how to play. I understand that this can be great for those who enjoy that process. I cannot invest the time for this type of game.
Roy, I love you, man, but the audible nervous leg... :) I feel for you as I have the same thing and mine is incessant. It might be a good idea to try and find a mount for your mic so it can't be heard. Great review though. I love this 4 squares format.
So this is kind of like a boardgame version of Sunless Sea with a bit of a lighter tone?
The walkthrough was problematic for me. It would be one thing if I could choose not to do it and just read the rulebook, but it says you HAVE to do the walkthrough to teach the game. Then, at the end, it says you still need to read the rulebook. Then why do the walkthrough at all? I've only done the walkthrough. Had to stop to read the rulebook now and haven't read it yet. So basically, my only experience has been the walkthrough and I'm feeling "meh" about continuing. I'm surprised you guys didn't mention the walkthrough. Did you skip it, push through it, enjoy it?
ZEE: There is no Poison condition in this game. There is Venom, which can be cured by Gregory, the Doctor. So I do not know if you were joking when you said nobody cures poison.
Otherwise I am with you on this game and agree that the rulebook is the biggest problem, but it is self-eliminating. I did dive deep into videos and BGG forums so a lot of my questions were answered early on.
One thing that is hard to convey is the quality of components. Until you actually handle them it is hard to see just how good and sturdy the cardboard chits and tokens are. The crew cards, condition tokens, etc. can seem flimsy on video, but are actually very thick and sturdy.
Roy: Maybe I'm strange...
Tom: Yes
Tom has a pretty sizable Cthulu statue in his collection for someone that said he is not a Cthulu fan! :-)
It comes from the kickstarter of Death May Die
Still, costed a considerable amount of extra money if he didnt got it for free
The way Roy described going around and finding stuff so that the next time you know to go there first to then get to the market, etc makes me think of Metroid. Zelda seems like a great comparison but Zelda is pretty straightforward usually on what equipment you find when. Metroid encourages you to find secrets and get things out of order to play the game differently.
What Zelda are you talking about? Zelda Breath of the Wild and specially Tears of the Kingdom are many light years ahead of all Metroids combined in terms of finding secrets and get things out of order to play differently.
This isn't a random dungeon delver. You don't get to poke your nose into every nook unless you're sure you're ready for a serious sudden combat. Easy mode is not the solution, careful and meticulous play is. It's a masterpiece except the rulebook and for the next game, I'd like to have some more crew interaction. Maybe love stories, fights etc.?
The rulebook criticism and missing tips from the get go seem to connect with the comment wrt to "Zelda style" analogy at the beginning of the video: In the olden days, there was no decent manual (well, or we never read it) an no tutorial, and you figured out the game rules slowly, and that was often frustrating. And you got tips and strategy from outside sources because of that.
Should that happen nowadays? Not really I say, but maybe some of us can get some nostalgic vibes from it. :-D
Also confirmed Tom and Mike think this game is hot garbage.
I've been sleeping on this designer. Time to check it out.
@@Unit17 Hey-o!
@@tfpp1 For sure and don’t forget, for a lighter game, Megaland is really fun as well.
Its kind of like the baby of Forgotten Water and Robinson Crusoe. Missed the KS so my retail version wont release for some time.
Mr Dreadful, I feel your pain. Wish I had backed this one.
Same here... Hopefully not too many more months, I can't wait! my retail preorder says, roughly 2 more months until it arrives, but that date can often change....
Easily one of my top 5 games of all time. Finished first campaign and we felt the difficulty was a perfect balance of challenge vs reward.
the punishing part seems close to the arkham horror lcg, both for events that make you discard stuff and combat with counterattacks
The game is cool, but priced way too high for the amount of stuff you get regarding components and the actual story. Too much bucks for the amount of table time you'll get out of it. Also, the world is too bland and unexciting, and the characters are straight up boring.
Mike likes Sleeping Gods as much as Tom likes Dwellings of Eldervale :)
Hmmm, I don't know. Tom *really* despises Dwellings ;)
Tom's mic is like a mini-me!
It was in the rule book that after the events the cards are coming off the characters... but it is in only one place and I only know this from watching another streamer who also bashed this and then went back and found it in the rule book. It was near the end in a tips section.
From what I heard different parts of the map are far more difficult than others. Maybe Tom and Mike went to areas where there were bigger beasties.
That would fall in line with Mike's Zelda comparison, which is pretty cool. I know I explored my way into some quick deaths in Breath of the Wild, and I would mark my map with a skull to remember it was dangerous there. It was pretty rewarding to return there later and come away unscathed because I was more powerful and had more knowledge of the combat.
You are told in the rule book that the further you go from the starting zone, the harder the challenges get. So do not rush away before exploring some starting areas and upgrading your crew members with better weapons and ability cards.
Is there a reason why this 4 Squares review is not under video reviews on the BGG Sleeping Gods page? Usually these reviews are linked pretty quickly.
Really? No one knows this?
Not a fan of the Character art.
4 Seals of Excellence!!!
Wow!!!
I give your review an 8.5.
Just kidding around guys. Keep up the good work!
I'm going to wait for the next Kickstarter... is there gonna be a next Kickstarter?
It was great that from the moment Zee corrected Tom on the exact year of the game I knew he was a huge fan. :)
Well, it is the more typical lovecraftian year too, and it seems that the game have a similar setting.
Like many of Red Raven games, there willl almost certainly be a revised edition.
Wow this game is huge. Looks very detailed. Not the game for me but I appreciate the review.
I can't wait for mine to arrive!
Ryan Laukat’s masterpiece. 10/10
Aaaaahhh the legendary Red raven games, they never dissapoint
This is the BEST Ryan Laukat game! Agreed! 9 out of 10!
That Wandering Sea player mat reminds me of the screen mapping I used to do in King's Quest back in the day.
Love Ryan Laukat games. Gotta try this one
Oooooooh my god, oh my god! I’m unboxing it now, I cannot wait to get into this!!! Such high scores and I. Already a red raven games fan!
We need something similar for empires of the void universe?
Mic check before recording next time.
A nice mix of opinions. For me personally, it was the best story telling game I have ever played and the best game of any kind I have played in a long while. The combat is hard though and we got slaughtered twice in our first play through which did speed up the game. That said, we have been doing much better in combat in our second play through now that we understand all of the mechanics and have not died yet. Of course we are also 1/3 of the way through the game and have yet to locate a totem this time around, so maybe we are just on a vacation cruise at this point. At least we are having fun exploring in a different direction.
14 hours? Add TI:4 to Zee's Catch-up-alooza already!!!! LOL
My biggest problem with this game is logistics. This is a game that expects you to fail one or two times through it to learn more ideal paths if you want to actually "beat" it and get the good endings. And the time you spend setting up, packing up, and churning through the start to get back to that sweet spot in the middle. Add into that characters that don't even have a single note to them, since all of the narrative actions are assumed to be the shared captain.
I would love a game like this where each player had one character and that character actually made some choices, but what you got is a pile of numbers, and thats too bad.
Edit: I also don't like an exploration game that punishes you for exploring, both with a ticking clock and challenges you can't overcome without redoing starting area stuff over and over on future games to get the gear and equipment you need to handle later sections
Been waiting for this review! I’m gonna start my first campaign in two weeks!! 😃😃
See we thought the game was too easy. In general I think it shows it was really lacking an ability to change the difficulty based on the group. To have a new Co-op game with no way to really scale difficulty is surprising.
It's about right for us, but I think I'll only play on "brutal" from now on (which isn't any more difficult, tbh). We never came close to losing a fight first campaign.
@@Olvenskol It is a bit odd that the hard mode doesn't really make it harder, but instead just makes mistakes more punishing.
I'm torn because I really like Above and Below but really did NOT enjoy Near and Far, which everyone makes out to be the obviously better game. So when people say they like Sleeping Gods, I wonder if it's Near and Far syndrome-or if I'd actually enjoy it.
For those who rated this game 8.5...find other games you rated 8.5 and ask yourself, "Isn't this game better? Do you feel lucky punk? Do you?*
I only got to tie point where Tom talks about wishing the tips where in the rulebook. I know he prefaced with "this may not be everybody", but it made me think exactly of what Mike said... "Like Zelda". And I agree. I don't think we need to beat games right away. 12 and a half hours is great amount of play time but I feel like there is even more. Imagine if you beat Zelda or other adventure story games the first time through? How fun would that be? I find the most enjoyment I'm learning the game, figuring out how to overcome the obstacles, trying new things, taking a different route. Now if after 10 plays I can't get past the se point in the game I could see that as frustrating and might search out some tips for others (which in itself used to be so much fun). In school passing along tips. Glory days. Anywho back to the video... Where Tom prolly says something in the very next sentence that makes this comment irrelevant 🙃
is this campaign such that you can play an hour, stop and start again the next day? are there obvious stopping points?
Yes there are.
My sister and I found the focus on combat and its mechanics too heavy and integral to the game compared to Near and Far and Above and Below. It was a chore we didn't enjoy.
I've read one sentence on BGG about about how to manage the difficulty that changed it for me: "Your characters are resources". The games is meant to played with characters being exhausted or unconscious half the time. I would collect exhaustion and damage and distribute it evenly, than I would dock at a harbour and visit the Inn. Also note, that there is no penalty for a character being almost unconscious and the doctor has a lot of tricks to stabilise people and keep them running.
I was the 567th thumb
This gane-concept, but with "WH40K, AvP, Battletech, Star Wars, something Lovecraftian..."
Tom's overview seems meh to me. I want to want this, but I need to see more of an initial playthrough. I will have to find one and I am willing to be spoiled a little to be inspired to pick this up.
Watch Rodney Smith How to play video. That should help.
I found Rahdo's runthrough very interesting and a good judge on how it plays, although the ship board has changed considerably since that runthrough
@@JonoNZBoardGamer The review is very out of date because the game changed so much. Crew boards, shipboard, Combat, etc. are all somewhat different. There have been a lot of more recent reviews.
What was shaking sound during the video? Really annoying.
Roy shaking his leg
Wow Mike and Tom really hated this game. I kid, I kid! My copy came in recently and I'm really looking forward to playing. Rodney has a 40 minute "How To Play" video for the game posted which tells you how deep the ruleset is. You bet your chickens I'll be watching that as well as reading the rulebook. 😃
Jumanji Drums! Look Out!
well mike components list is where I look when I don't know what a component is, so the artifact thingy is perfectly fine in my book
Can you guys please stop rating games so high? I am spending way too much money on awesome games!
Without having played the game, the inherent issues here would bother me a great deal, and they seem to be more or less “brushed off” in favor of pure enjoyment value.
The game just came out and they already got an expansion? Good Lord! This is going to be another Dominion. Nope. I want to like this but I'm trying to stay away from games that can be money pits with all the expansions.
There is only one expansion, it's more like they cut part of the game to make the prince point more affordable.
Co op campaign game? Unfortunately this would never hit the table for me and my group so I can't justify getting it. Looks fun though
Despite their disclaimer the game plays great solo.
@@knighthawk3749 I don't tend to play games solo. I'd rather play video games if I have time to play a solo campaign board game. Video games still do stories and immersion way better
@@cartergreen2309 Normally I would agree, but to me it feels like an exception. Sometimes I prefer the tactile feel of physical components over the digital ephemera. Plus Covid makes it harder to get a group together.
@@knighthawk3749 yeah I could understand that reason and yes it is hard to get together. It's not so bad for me since my family is 1 of my 2 groups but my second group hasn't gotten together hardly at all. Yeah I understand why people do but campaign games just are a no go for me because of that. I'd just rather play a video game. The only exception I have is Journeys in Middle Earth and its only because it's LotR.
That map book reminds me of an old A-Z (road atlas, not sure what the American equivalent is) book.
I realized when they said you discard ability cards at the end of the event deck you lose them not being in the rule book is wrong. It is in page 37....as An afterthought. It should certainly be more prominent.
We made 2 changes that really helped. You can use blocking on your weapon at the end of the round monster attacks. Also we never pay command to join another player's challenge. Small changes that make the game still challenging but less harsh.
It's an awesome game and I'm not the biggest Red Raven fan. Sorry that Mike hated it so badly :D :D
Well well, nice to see the positiv opinions across the board. I'm still waiting for the game to arrive here in germany but after this review, I'm eager to play it :). Oh, and nice to have four different people giving an opinion on this game. I guess it is a LOT of resources / playing time putting into a game like this with four people playing it individually, but I appreciate it, thanks.