My dad got me into CSA & BSA back in the early 60's. We were really lucky. Our Scout Master was an old soldier and a woodsman. I'll remember until the day I die, the first time he rolled a map out on the ground, oriented it, and began our intro in "Map and Compass" as it was known at the time. One particular lesson always stuck with me. "See these light blue lines?" "When they're reeeaaal close together like that... you should try to avoid that area." He went on to elaborate. I was thankful for that knowledge he imparted to me then. It gave me a little bit of an edge when, later on, I spent twenty-four months in the Infantry.
Im kinda a land nav buff too. Just toady my first ever GPS arrived. A garmin 801. Played with it my entire morning ruck lol! I havent used my pace count (67?) in years. We have a tendency to use familiar terrain to train on out of availability, and that makes it less critical. Also when you start moving a lot outdoors, you just kinda 'know' how far you have traveled, everything considered. I think we want to send a team to the American Pioneer Corp - Warfighter Challenge 2025. I have heard that solid land nav skills are required.
This is something you can add to Grunts vs Backpackers. Most backpackers would get lost in a closet without GPS. I remember my first backpacking trip, was no gps back then, was maps and compass only. Was the most difficult terrain I've ever been on, up and down hills and cliff faces, nothing but briers and 50% was crawling. Still my favorite trip to this day.
Oh. If any of you need help with navigation and can't afford to get training. Go talk to your local Eagle Scouts, they can help. In my area they have built a land navigation course for the public to use for training.
LRRP'd for 12 years. Never used pace count. Om missions I was rucking daily 30-40 km for e week at a time. Only used valleys and high points (mountains or hilltops) as waypoints. At night I used glow from distant cities, or stars as reference points. What I always did before starting a mission though, was memorizing the map. Roads, rivers, lakes and so on, and the plan the mission accordingly. First priority was always to move tactically and not being observed. Only used a compass when bogged down by fog wintertime in the mountains to avoid being a avalanche casualty . Main focus was stealth and concealment.
I remember on our first land nav course we came across a road and the DS were riding around on atvs so we decided to hide off the side of the road to not be seen. We let them pass and continued on crossing the road. We also had a guy who was dehydrated and we were moving pretty quick so we had to stop get him hydrated and help stretch his hamstrings out. I don’t think we ever had a pace count. I was the compass guy for the most part. I remember I switched off to map guy once but I was better at keeping our azimuth so was put back on compass pretty quickly. The other 2 guys were responsible for pace count but we really didn’t need to keep track because we plotted our points really well and just walked from point to point. Only missed 1 point and the other teams couldn’t find it either so we assumed it went missing or was covered up my dense brush. Something to consider that wasn’t considered on the training course is the potential for us to run into enemy’s, and planning out our route accordingly.
I do a lot of hiking, on and off trail. I always carry flagging tape, topo maps, compass and a handheld GPS. The area I live in is mountainous, thickly forested with areas of dense underbrush. I hunt, forage, bushcraft, camp and backpack in it. I use a number of techniques to navigate thru it. I study my maps before I go and have a basic plan. The plan is basic because it often changes because of the foliage or something I might find interesting. One of the best tools I have learned is how to properly use a handheld GPS in conjunction with 7.5 min topo maps along with using guardrails and designated points that let me find where I'm at on the map. I made a video on how I land navigate. It's not a professional grade video, it's not what I do for a living but it does show how to use a map, compass and GPS as a nav tool set. If Grunt Proof is ok with it, I'll share it.
Just before I ETS’d in 2008 I was teaching some land nav to some guys that had just gotten back from basic (Reserve) and they asked where the plugger was. They had zero idea how to read a map.
Don't toss out the baby with the bath water. Pace counts aren't the end-all be-all, but it _does_ provide another piece of confidence for your backstops and terrain association. Are you at the first, second, third or fourth draw/road/hill/stream? Use all the tools in the box to double check yourself.
Question for you for civilian defense gear thoughts on chest rig like the quad flap vs Ibe like the crossfire dz-rig? Been thinking I have a quad flap and really do like it but clearing off my chest and moving the weight seems potentially better for what may be to come.
It's good to see other people preaching physical Land Nav. I'm retired after almost 20y of SAR, and seeing the shift away from Land Nav and all the younger generations counting on a cell phone GPS app vs actual Land Nav (with paper maps) skills is a bit disheartening. Once the batteries die they'll wished they would have kept their skills up.
Good stuff man. The fact is too many don’t understand land navigation is a fundamental task for something bigger (patrolling).
My dad got me into CSA & BSA back in the early 60's. We were really lucky. Our Scout Master was an old soldier and a woodsman. I'll remember until the day I die, the first time he rolled a map out on the ground, oriented it, and began our intro in "Map and Compass" as it was known at the time. One particular lesson always stuck with me. "See these light blue lines?" "When they're reeeaaal close together like that... you should try to avoid that area." He went on to elaborate.
I was thankful for that knowledge he imparted to me then. It gave me a little bit of an edge when, later on, I spent twenty-four months in the Infantry.
Im kinda a land nav buff too. Just toady my first ever GPS arrived. A garmin 801. Played with it my entire morning ruck lol!
I havent used my pace count (67?) in years. We have a tendency to use familiar terrain to train on out of availability, and that makes it less critical. Also when you start moving a lot outdoors, you just kinda 'know' how far you have traveled, everything considered.
I think we want to send a team to the American Pioneer Corp - Warfighter Challenge 2025. I have heard that solid land nav skills are required.
This is something you can add to Grunts vs Backpackers.
Most backpackers would get lost in a closet without GPS.
I remember my first backpacking trip, was no gps back then, was maps and compass only. Was the most difficult terrain I've ever been on, up and down hills and cliff faces, nothing but briers and 50% was crawling.
Still my favorite trip to this day.
You have been absolutely invaluable in your teachings, knowledge and resources... you have highly motivated this man, and I thank you for that.
Oh. If any of you need help with navigation and can't afford to get training.
Go talk to your local Eagle Scouts, they can help. In my area they have built a land navigation course for the public to use for training.
I live in Nevada where our land nav is look across the sea of creosote and head to that mountain 40 miles away
LRRP'd for 12 years. Never used pace count. Om missions I was rucking daily 30-40 km for e week at a time. Only used valleys and high points (mountains or hilltops) as waypoints. At night I used glow from distant cities, or stars as reference points. What I always did before starting a mission though, was memorizing the map. Roads, rivers, lakes and so on, and the plan the mission accordingly. First priority was always to move tactically and not being observed. Only used a compass when bogged down by fog wintertime in the mountains to avoid being a avalanche casualty . Main focus was stealth and concealment.
I remember on our first land nav course we came across a road and the DS were riding around on atvs so we decided to hide off the side of the road to not be seen. We let them pass and continued on crossing the road. We also had a guy who was dehydrated and we were moving pretty quick so we had to stop get him hydrated and help stretch his hamstrings out. I don’t think we ever had a pace count. I was the compass guy for the most part. I remember I switched off to map guy once but I was better at keeping our azimuth so was put back on compass pretty quickly. The other 2 guys were responsible for pace count but we really didn’t need to keep track because we plotted our points really well and just walked from point to point. Only missed 1 point and the other teams couldn’t find it either so we assumed it went missing or was covered up my dense brush. Something to consider that wasn’t considered on the training course is the potential for us to run into enemy’s, and planning out our route accordingly.
On point!!!
I do a lot of hiking, on and off trail. I always carry flagging tape, topo maps, compass and a handheld GPS. The area I live in is mountainous, thickly forested with areas of dense underbrush. I hunt, forage, bushcraft, camp and backpack in it. I use a number of techniques to navigate thru it.
I study my maps before I go and have a basic plan. The plan is basic because it often changes because of the foliage or something I might find interesting. One of the best tools I have learned is how to properly use a handheld GPS in conjunction with 7.5 min topo maps along with using guardrails and designated points that let me find where I'm at on the map.
I made a video on how I land navigate. It's not a professional grade video, it's not what I do for a living but it does show how to use a map, compass and GPS as a nav tool set. If Grunt Proof is ok with it, I'll share it.
Upload it to youtube
Just before I ETS’d in 2008 I was teaching some land nav to some guys that had just gotten back from basic (Reserve) and they asked where the plugger was. They had zero idea how to read a map.
My first GPS machine told me that the address where I lived didn't exist.
Great video brother
Don't toss out the baby with the bath water. Pace counts aren't the end-all be-all, but it _does_ provide another piece of confidence for your backstops and terrain association.
Are you at the first, second, third or fourth draw/road/hill/stream?
Use all the tools in the box to double check yourself.
After a few months, it's all terrain association.
I was literally thinking just terrain associate…. Then you said it. Yup, study the map. Water, banana, snickers
I do all my land nav in the Rocky Mountains
Question for you for civilian defense gear thoughts on chest rig like the quad flap vs Ibe like the crossfire dz-rig?
Been thinking I have a quad flap and really do like it but clearing off my chest and moving the weight seems potentially better for what may be to come.
Break out your map, protractor and compass and start plotting your points gents.
Terrain association is King, thankfully we didn't have to deal with the lack of terrain features in Afghanistan like yall in iraq.
It's good to see other people preaching physical Land Nav. I'm retired after almost 20y of SAR, and seeing the shift away from Land Nav and all the younger generations counting on a cell phone GPS app vs actual Land Nav (with paper maps) skills is a bit disheartening. Once the batteries die they'll wished they would have kept their skills up.
Not knowing the terrain before you move out, is not only stupid, it’s almost negligent, when you have all the tools at your fingertips.
Dude I just point my azimuth and goooooooooooooo