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Why neither side wants the Sequel Trilogy "Saved/Fixed" (Star Wars Discussion)
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- Опубліковано 18 гру 2021
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The only way that the sequels work as a semi-coherent story is if they were their own separate franchise that took inspiration from Star Wars, most people wouldn’t mind as they were it’s own thing but as they are sequels to the OT; the massive damage they did to the overall saga won’t be forgotten by anyone.
^^^^^^ Right Here.
Except the people that defend them to the death. They only defend one individual movie too, not all, saying JJ messed everything up with TRoS or Rian (who obviously did) messed up with TLJ.
@@xrstevenson Those people need to realize that each of the movies were bad for the franchise for their individual sins
@@thorthewolf8801
They won't, their some legit celebrating 4th anniversary of tlj on Twitter
Agreed. In no way can I see the story of the prequels and originals leading to the Disney story
The sequel trilogy remaining in canon is like leaving a giant turd inside your house. You can ignore it all you want but the smell will never go away and will always taint everything else in the house with its smell.
You tell them, man, you tell them...
☝ EXACTLY
Imo, ignoring the Sequels exist is the best way to be at peace with them, not trying to fix them.
There's no taking it back without ramping up the animosity between fans. I mean this in the most neutral way, if fans only hated the sequels for writing quality or lack of adherence to the lore, we wouldn't be experiencing so much division, but the fact that the Sequels were trying to appeal to progressives was their biggest mistake. They should've just made some moderately good Star Wars movies from the get go, but there is no changing it without some kind of backlash and harassment on one/both sides, because the sequels revolve around girl power and modernity.
Fans think they are the righteous underdogs, and progressives control entertainment, social media, and circles of movie critics. Trying to change anything will just stir up conflict that needs to die out already
A disgusting analogy, to be sure, but it checks out
I've been a fan of SW my whole life, and the sequels are beyond saving.
This guy did a decent job.
ua-cam.com/video/3WJvzGCZpmQ/v-deo.html
I'm with you. Just bury them and let's never see or hear of them again.
You tell them, Quantum, you tell them...
Amen
Same. I think that there are just that many writing flaws, but also there's no taking it back without ramping up the animosity between fans.
I mean this in the most neutral way, if fans only hated the sequels for writing quality or lack of adherence to the lore, we wouldn't be experiencing so much division, but the fact that the Sequels were trying to appeal to progressives was their biggest mistake. They should've just made some moderately good Star Wars movies from the get go, but there is no changing it without some kind of backlash and harassment on one/both sides, because the sequels revolve around girl power and modernity.
Fans think they are the righteous underdogs, and progressives control entertainment, social media, and circles of movie critics. Trying to change anything will just stir up conflict that needs to die out already
The bottom line is, the Prequels had a fantastic overall story at its foundation. CW simply took that story and expanded upon it, adding layers and context. The Story of the Sequels, in stark contrast, is *fundamentally* broken.
The Prequels - Good Story, Poor execution
The OT - Lightning in a bottle
The Sequels - Bad Story, Decent execution (there are elements I like)
But yes the sequels story just isn’t original and is lazy. There was no real thought put into it besides TLJ and that film split the fan base
@@jackbruno953 Prequels don't have poor execution, and the Sequel trilogy doesn't have decent execution, get your head screwed on tighter
The success of the Mandalorian, Grogu and the return of Luke Skywalker in the height of his full Jedi power speaks volumes on how Star Wars could have been treated from the start of the Sequel trilogy had the right people been overseeing it. The amount of lost opportunities while we had the original cast together still hurts to ponder. I think an animated series of Luke and Grogu has potential. But…
Not if it leads to TLJ
@@noneyabizness6094 Exactly. The Mandalorian is just bland and is following the Disney sequel timeline. At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem. I agree, RETCON the abysmal Disney sequels. Either make George's story, or just leave the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) be.
Dave Filoni wasn't involved in the sequels.
@@gallopingLake6 That doesn't change the fact that the Mandalorian is sticking to the Disney sequel timeline. You need a total retcon of the Disney sequels and start from scratch.
Or you could have just did the old EU which was proven marketable...
Something else that Disney is probably considering when thinking about de-canonizing the sequel trilogy is, the sequels are a narrative dead end. At the end of ROTJ people were interested in how Luke would reestablish the Jedi order and the establishment of the New Republic, etc. After the prequels people wanted to know more about the clone wars and the jedi, etc.
But what do we have at the end of the sequels? The Jedi are gone. The Sith are gone. New Republic; gone. The Empire/First Order; gone. Only Rey was left and a significant chunk of her fan base only cared about her when she had sexual tension with Kylo...who is also gone.
No matter how good the new and upcoming Star Wars projects are, everything still ends with Rey Palpatine alone in an empty desert.
Wordd man. In a perfect world the sequels would he like the prequels in that they can be built upon and made to be appreciated for what they were trying to do. Thats impossible with the sequels l. Truly impossible. That particular part of star wars' past really does need to die
To further your point, the Sequels storyline utterly crapped on the idea of Hope for the future of the galaxy. Why do I care what Rey can build for the future, when you showed me that Luke and Leia failed miserably when they tried it. The whole thing just bums me out now.
edit: changed prequels to sequels
@@kdub3890 Further, further, what exactly is keeping Palpatine from resurrecting himself yet again on a different planet with a fully operational army strong enough to take over the galaxy?
Spot on. Narrative dead end. In fact, the end was dead after TLJ! 🙄
@@TheElizander How about the fact he has already possessed Rey as she killed him and he said his spirit would possess her if she did. Palpatine won.
The final episode of the Mandalorian Season 1, where the two Biker Scouts were chit chatting outside of town with the captured Grogu, was exactly the same kind of "feeling" that I have of Star Wars since I was a kid. The sequel trilogy was completely devoid of that "feeling". Its very difficult to explain.
That scene was bad as it made stormtroopers a joke instead of a menacing threat.
@@Quincy_Morris I think it showed how incompetent their equipment was
@@rinsekai in the OT storm Troopers we’re a threatening force who protagonists had to flee from or be defeated. In modern Star Wars they are no threat because there’s a misconception that stormtroopers were inaccurate or not threatening in the original trilogy.
@@Quincy_Morris dude stormtroopers die left and right in the OT. They’re the big bad’s henchmen, comedic relief. They’ve never been a significant opposing force to the main heroes of the story, unless they’re in very large numbers.
@@AOA9871 Storm Troopers are always in big numbers. And tactically win literally every fight in the OT they are in with the only exception being the last part of the final battle of Endor.
And the speeder bike chase. Which was a trap anyway so that doesn’t really count
The sequels should just be written off as one of Luke’s visions of a possible future if he makes the wrong choices; merely a meditation session.
The thing about the Prequels is that they had a time skip for interesting stories, an original premise, and established characters that could be explored. The Sequels have none of that, it just feels like Empire vs Rebels all over again.
Yeah exactly I rather watch anime over sequel trilogy
Also the sequels take place between days of each other
But with unlikable characters
exactly
not only done worse, but with a dash of "girl power, fuck men!" tossed in.
The biggest issue with the sequel trilogy will always be that it was created by people who don't understand Star Wars, at best, and who actively hate Star Wars, at worst.
The people who die hard defend the sequels would be doing it purely on ideological grounds. I and most people in society wouldn't be able to find much in common with these kinds.
Sad but true!
@@LetsRoleplay Yup. It's no coincidence that the only people who claim to have enjoyed that cultural vandalism and total subversion of the Western Hero Mythos, are the same people who think boys can be girls and that communism is a good idea.
@@Indubidably0 And they tend to be shills who hate the rest of Star Wars.
@@LetsRoleplay you’re absolutely right! the very people I know who NEVER gave a crap about that franchise before, all of a sudden became invested into this dreck of a trilogy, and the two wooden posts for leads, all because of the gender/race swap….period!
In fact, the biggest giveaway to how much they knew about SW, was the fact that these same “acquaintances”, praised the fact that Boyega was the “first black man” to star in the SW saga??? 😂 what else can you say to that, other than knowing they won’t spend ONE dime on SW after the first viewing?
Contextualization can't fix the sequels. I think this is thoroughly proven. Disney has tried to address numerous complaints that way already, and still seems to be doing this with the new pre-ST Luke book. We saw it with the explanation for Palpatine's return and Rey's origin. They kinda made more problems than they solved with some of those, but even if they hadn't, it wouldn't fix the core issue: that the ST undoes the victories of the heroes in the OT. It effectively makes Anakin no longer the chosen one cause he doesn't defeat the sith, the republic they worked so hard to re-establish is immediately destroyed, etc. The ST undermines the OT, and I don't see any way for contextualization to change that. Only those already okay with that move are gonna appreciate any contextualization that fixes plot issues or other minor problems.
I agree. The directors and writers of the sequel trilogy didn't care about Star Wars at all. They just wanted to make their own movies and it just so happened that they got a Star Wars contract. They don't care about what's happening now or what happened beforehand. This becomes more obvious when you realize JJ did the same exact thing to the Star Trek movies too.
They just copeyed some idias and went with this new resistance vs order. If they had at least come up with some new idias it could have bin better. Nothing realy origional and they ignored evverthing established in the movies abput the force' lightsabers and charecters. Great idia if your trying to fail. As far as I'm conserned they just made me hate thier new creation and prove they could not do as good as the origional movies. @@seth8933
I was appalled when Kathleen Kennedy went on record saying there was no stories? I read the Thrawn trilogy and they wasted the opportunity. It was a very good trilogy. "The force is female" didn't help matters either.
I saw her say that in a video dude! I hated that she would say something like that and straight up condemn and forget the hard work that had gone into so many ideas for expanding the story we've all know and loved for so long. she really must have been the best coffee girl in the room.
From a certain point of view - i.e. Kathleen Kennedy and Disney, that is true. There are no stories... Remember, these are the same people that de-canonized the Expanded Universe. However, we the original Fans know that to be false and refuse to accept that. What it really boils down to though, is if they produced the Sequel Trilogy based on a screen treatment of the Thrawn Trilogy, they'd have to pay Timothy Zann royalties, and the money grubbing, vandals that they are, can't have that. That's only reserved for people in the Mickey Mouse club.
The Thrawn Trilogy, is and always will be the true Sequel Trilogy!
They also threw out Lucas' ideas for a sequel trilogy. He already had a rough arc for the three movies.
@@ealan3694
You tell them, man, you tell them.
The big reason, imo, why a series enhancing the sequels wouldn't work is that the sequels biggest problem is the story. People don't dislike the sequels purely because of bad dialogues or because important character arcs wheren't shown on screen. The dislike the sequels because they don't like what's actually happening in them and that can't really be fixed without removing the sequels from the canon
that...and it doesn't even have a coherent story. Last Jedi went so far off the rails, that the third movie had to spend time to try and undo the damage
Spot on. I feel like people who dislike the prequels don't REALLY understand star wars, to its fullest. Prequels haters just hate the cheesy Dialogue and cgi
Or having two canons. No im serious if we have a branch of events and series from one focal point we have two canon timelines it can mend the damage done while keeping the current sequel fans happy.
At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem.
Truth. Even explaining Luke in a way people would accept (highly unlikely) wouldn't fix the overarching story issues. I feel like they've tried to explain away similar issues like the return of Palpatine. But the manner of his return was not the biggest issue. It was that it undid the victory in RotJ, and made Anakin not the chosen one cause he no longer defeats Palpatine. Similar issues exist with Luke.
I've never wanted them "fixed" or rewritten or whatever. I want them gone. I want them completely written off as not Star Wars and erased from the history of this universe I've loved for so many years.
That said, I've already done that in my own head, and in this day and age of literally everyone having an opinion that they think is the only one that matters, I've realized that's all I need.
Star Wars ended with the six movies, continued with the countless amazing games, books, and other productions like The Clone Wars, and that's Star Wars to me. Disney doesn't exist.
My Thoughts Exactly. The Thrawn Trilogy Is My Episode 7,8 and 9
Well said.
Even The Mandalorian / Book of Boba?
I guess no Mandalorian, no Rogue One, No Boba Fett and no Clone Wars final Season and no Rebels Series. Those are all Star Wars, possibly the greatest Star Wars Content since the OG Star Wars trilogy.
@@lukejochem Definitely not. No idea why people like that shit.
I feel like the only way to "fix" the sequel trilogy would be to completely redo them and plan out a new story. This is because the sequels were not planned out, they were done separately by different directors fighting for control over the trilogy. This makes it very difficult to bridge the gaps and enhance the story like the Clone Wars did for the prequels. If Disney were going to do this then my suggestion would be to build a new story off the Mandalorian, one that's properly planned out.
That's true. We Would have to rewrite the entire thing, and there's no doing that without ramping up the animosity between fans. I mean this in the most neutral way, if fans only hated the sequels for writing quality or lack of adherence to the lore, we wouldn't be experiencing so much division, but the fact that the Sequels were trying to appeal to progressives was their biggest mistake. They should've just made some moderately good Star Wars movies from the get go, but because the sequels revolve around girl power and modernity, there is no changing it without some kind of backlash and harassment on one/both sides.
Fans think they are the righteous underdogs, and progressives control entertainment, social media, and circles of movie critics. Trying to change anything will just stir up conflict that needs to die out already
As much as want them redone they exist and we can't have two sequels with 7-9 labelled on them. The closest we could get to a fix is to redo it like when George created the speciall adition but I don't think that would work as it would require some major changes in the story. I just feel a new sequel is not needed and we don't even need Luke' Han and Lia back just for a good star wars program. Thier's plenty of idias that could be made into shows and movies like Rogue Squadran and some good rebell vs empire ground or fleet battles. Just decanon the sequels and ignore them and just exspand elswere.
To me the biggest issue with the sequels, that I never see anyone talk about, is how the relationships between Luke, Leia and Han wasn’t just poorly handled but non existent. Luke doesn’t see Han or Leia in any of the sequels. Han and Leia break up off screen. Their kid Kylo isn’t like either of them and is just an edgy Anakin. We don’t see him go from slave to Jedi to Sith. His journey is from Jedi royalty to Sith want to be without a true master in any why. If the rule of two is real and Palpatine was alive and created snoke than he (Palpatine) was the master in the shadows guiding him (Kylo) to the dark side. But how is that an arc? Being manipulated off screen by the light side to being manipulated of screen by the dark side? He’s such a shallow character yet he’s the most interesting character in the whole of the sequels (IMO). Nobody wrote the sequels before hand and you can feel it in the way that none of the characters it introduces having any arcs and how they didn’t know what to do with any of the old characters. The force awakens created a lot of interesting characters, but they’re only surface level interesting if they don’t have an good story to push them though their story.
I love how we have people who'll be like "don't worry, people will LOVE the Sequels later on, like the Prequels." Or say stuff like "all we need is a clone wars like show to make people like it". Those people are missing so much key points. The Prequels were a quirky imperfect movies with a lot of problems with bad pacing being one but had massive potential. They didn't break cannon or ruined characters. Then the clone wars gave us the story and pacing it lacked and people grew to them enjoy or at the very least tolerate those movies. The Sequels killed cannon, ruined characters, added characters who broke the pre-established rules and had ZERO PLANS of what they should do with the characters and the story even up until the final movie. While the Prequels were a lovable yet flawed creation with potential that later on got the love and content it needed to be what it was meant to be the Sequels broke everything and is beyond saving. So amount of spin-off shows will ever fix what happened. Whoever believes so is fooling themselves
Exactly! For example: people didn’t hate that Anakin became unsatisfied with the Jedi and turned to the dark side, they just weren’t happy with how he got to that. However, people just hated that Palpatine returned, period. Explaining or elaborating on that won’t change the fact that he returned, or that Luke went all murdery on his nephew, or that Han Solo just abandoned his wife and character arc and became a smuggler once again.
@Topside’s Cinecade You would be wrong. Kids these days watch marvel, not star wars. Sure, there will be some that do, but its negligible.
Perfect response! I would only add that it's not as if George Lucas, Rick McCallum, or anyone involved with the Prequels poured oil on the flames by claiming anyone who doesn't like their films is a -ist or a -phobe, so there wasn't that extra-level of bitterness and hatred involved back in the day. I consider the Sequels to be mediocre films as best, but I can (and will) glady ignore them. What I can't go past is how the fandom at large was treated by the ones calling the shots at Lucasfilm/Disney. I don't hate the sequels themselves, not even TLJ, but I hate everything around them, if that makes sense.
@@pedrorenault5335, how does any of that break Canon, force users can survive great falls. You believe that Palpatine didn't have a contingency plans. Luke, like his father has been tempted to the dark side many times, fear, paranoia and suffering can lead down a dark path, only he came to his senses a little late. You may not like but its human. Ha ran away instead of facing his problems, sounds like solo to me.
@@stevenstocker9873 Palpatine didn't just fall. He was obliterated from hitting the Reactor of the Death Star II. Also Luke's arc in Return of the Jedi is the exact opposite of what he does in TLJ.
When a trilogy is made just as a corporate product to cash in purchase, there’s no fixing it. Because unlike the prequels, there was no good story or lore in those films. Just lazy and uninspired writing.
Well Disney IS a mega corporation
Exactly I LOVE and see the purest form of SW in The OG Trilogy, The Prequels and the Expanded Universe. Making a series to the sequel failogy will do nothing but them throw money into a wall because no one cares about this garbage desecration to SW, no one is checking for any of these characters, no one likes the abysmal story and “lore”(if you can even call it that) where as TCW was expanding on already a masterpiece in The Prequels doing the same to the sequels won’t do anything because expanding on feculent cinematic flops have nothing to expand or build on the small portion of sequel fans will get triggered that the larger base of fans disregard them lol and that small percent won’t make them any money like the Solo movie I never bothered watching lol.
I've always felt that Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy was the true sequel
Ditto
You should read the new legacy comics
I never wanted a sequel trilogy; when the prequel trilogy ended, what I wanted to know was, 'What happened between episode three and four? I know Star Wars: Rebels tried to cover this twenty-year gap, but I wanted a trilogy film story that covered this time period. To me, episode six spelled the end of the Star Wars story and so I did not want to know what happened next. So for me, the sequel trilogy is not canan because I never asked that question, What happened next!
Feel the same way
You just did 😂
It would be cool if there was more expansion on the time between 3 and 4,perhaps what happens right before Ezra finds the time backdoor slip. Instead of finding a time portal they could have just made it like his master said, a training temple..I really wish they wouldn't have brought time travel in,but hey its Disney wars,let em do what they think is right and eventually fail because of it. I'm certain someday it will be to a majority of the fans liking rather than another split. That day may well bring some really good storytelling too.
Really there shouldn’t be a sequel trilogy since the force is supposed to be balanced after the events of the OT unless there’s some enemy that has nothing to do with the force, for example the Thrawn comics
I wanted to go to the past.
Old republic stuff.
Big Sith vs Jedi wars.
The whole “sacred” angle and how Disney doesn’t see it that way is telling of why the Sequels failed. With their failure, Disney really will struggle with their reliance on analytics versus how fans actually feel.
It reminds me of these recurring characters from the Nostalgia Critic who are these caricatures of those types of big corporate marketers who only think in analytics. “But the chart says…”
It has almost nothing to do with analytics. The term analytics is used because the real reason is so much more petty and stupid. Analytics is for saving face.
The real reason is power and decision making from rich talentless people thinking they can buy their way into fanfare but can't stand not being in charge. RetroBlasting's channel has a really good video explaining this problem and it's a problem **all over the entertainment industry, not just film**.
@@ElementZephyr Oh yeah, this 100%
"Analytics" literally is finding out what people want. And not just what they say they want, but what they'll actually spend money on, how much, etc. The problem is that powerful people in these companies IGNORE the research they've done because they think they know better and need to throw their weight around.
The elephant in the room is that they broke the customer base into multiple factions. Before the Disney trilogy customers were basically on the same page. Now whatever Disney does, customers will never all be on the same page again.
Long live the Legends faction!
to be fair, there was SOME division. the prequels still had vocal detractors and defenders. it was just that both sides found common ground in disliking the sequels. it probably helps that the sequels sorely lacked in qualities that the prequels excelled at, namely worldbuilding and the core premise of the story, making the prequel trilogy overall look much better in hindsight
@@Underworlder5 I felt people thought they were poor / badly made but they were not hostile or destroying the entire point of prior movies.
@@macmcleod1188 There were more than enough people bullying Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best, adults tormening an eight year old boy to complain he'd ruined their childhoods. However I think this lessened as the movies went from 1-3, always building on what came before, I don't think people grew to like the sequels more as they saw them unfold from 7-9.
With A New Hope in 1977, George Lucas magically caught the cultural Zeitgeist and brought America an escapist fantasy for everyone in a time when the country had been dispirited by the Vietnam War and political scandal, and the cinema was cynical to reflect this mood.
With The Last Jedi in 2017, Rian Johnson either misread the room entirely or was so foolish that he thought what America really needed at that time was more division, so he wantonly poured more fuel on the fire by assassinating Luke Skywalker's legacy.
Some people just want to see the world burn.
Let's not put the blame solely at Rian Johnson's feet. I'd blame Abrams more than anything.
@@Canadian_Princess Abrams just did a copy paste of episode IV with new characters. Johnson for all the bad he did, i hope, had a good intention behind it: destroy everything Abrams made to make something actually new with the franchise. But he failed miserably. For every good idea, he ruin it the next scene.
@@Geekezf Yeah, but instead of building on anything Johnson established, Abrams used the Rise of Skywalker to just shoehorn in a lot of bullshit. I actually like The Last Jedi, I'm a fan of trope subversion. I think Rey not being special was a great idea, having Abrams then turn around and bring back Palapatine and have Rey be his granddaughter was just asinine to the highest degree.
If I were the one writing the sequel trilogy with the same limitations that Abrams had, female lead and the older cast reprising their roles, this is what I would've done.
Fans would've wanted to see the Luke's Jedi Academy, it's something that he earned in Return of the Jedi and fans would've wanted to compare Luke's Academy with the one we see in the prequels. With that in mind, that's going to be the starting point. Our main leads would be the Solo Twins, Jaina Solo and Jacen Solo, as they begin their training at Luke's Academy. They would be around 20 years old and they haven't had any training yet because Luke believes that they should live normal lives first before taking the path of a Jedi.
Now, who would the villain be? Again, we want to explore Luke's Academy, and the best way to do that is creating a foil academy, like a dark reflection. This is were our main villain would come into play being Joruus C'baoth. For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy, you know who this is. For those who don't, his a corrupted Jedi that is the worst parts of the old Jedi order taken to the extreme, controlling, arrogant, and believing that only those who can use the Force are important.
In the books, C'baoth wanted to create his own academy but died before he could do so. However, in this sequel trilogy, lets allow him to start his own academy that would be a dark mirror to Luke's Academy. The main conflict isn't trying to destroy the other academy, Luke and C'baoth are both trying to prove that their academy is the best to carry on the Jedi legacy. So you would have C'baoth trying to corrupt Luke's students, and Luke trying to save C'baoth's students.
And through this conflict, Luke would gain understanding and wisdom on what makes a great Jedi Academy.
But what about our leads? The trilogy would start with Jaina and Jacen narrowly evading capture by trandoshan slavers lead by the trandoshan Drud Truhk, the prized dark Jedi apprentice of C'baoth. The Solo Twins only narrowly escape because Han Solo let himself get captured to give them the time that they needed. Once the twins get to Luke's Academy, Luke tells them that these trandoshan slavers somehow have been kidnapping his new Jedi initiates before they can reach his academy. This would be the main problem of the first movie for our heroes to solve.
Can our heroes save Han and the other Jedi initiates from these slavers while staying true to the Jedi path? Or will C'baoth have two more corrupted students under his teachings?
Damn that sounds good
Very interesting! I'd definitely gladly watch that!
Dude that’s space cobra kai
C'both was a clone of the original and would have played well in the story line and reason for his insanity.
Smartest move would be to retcon the sequels. I don’t know anyone IRL that liked the movies. Now that Rebels created the “bohoo magic time portal go change history” mechanic it would be obvious to expand this content to allow for some type of “Star Wars Multiverse”.
So many people would be happy if they made legends “canon” as another universe and Disney make a profit re-releasing old content with “expansions” to attract people.
Making a multiverse would be a super easy way to fix all the contradictions and continuity problems in the old EU, as well
Two stories don't mesh? They must have happened in seperate universes. Problem solved
You make a great point. I haven't met anyone in real life who enjoyed the sequels. The Star Wars fans said they sucked and the casual regular movie fans said they were ok.
Agreed, I would be more satisfied if the Star Wars multiverse happened.
"I don't know anyone IRL that liked the movies." So if you didn't know anyone with cancer, would that make cancer non-existant? No. There are many people who enjoyed the sequels, and the problem with retconning, like Thor said, is that it completely alienates everyone who enjoyed them.
Disney really shot themselves in the foot with this one.
@@shawnwolf5961 Disney don't mind alienate anyone. They just care about money. There was a lot of fans for "legends" and Disney alienate each and everyone by making official non canon. Nor did Disney stop Lucasfilm insulting the fans throughout putting the sequel aequel. The only note worthy time I can recall when Disney got involved to fix something star wars related was EA battlefront 2 mircotransactions incident.
If there was a very good solid chance to make even more money to uncanon the sequel, disney do it, sequel fans be damn.
Disney was under the false impression that everybody hated the Prequels, and so believed that since George Lucas was in charge of them, that must mean fans will love their content with no Lucas involvement. At least that's the impression I got when watching the Sequel Trilogy. Just the fact that there was almost no acknowledgement of those movies, except for maybe a line or two in ROS, and Mustafar being there for a couple minutes, just tells me everything I need to know. In fact, they probably threw those things in there because they saw that some people do like them, and so wanted to please them, just not go all the way
Yeah, it is strange how Disney went out of their way to ignore everything from the prequels. The prequels were not done well, but they introduced a lot of cool new things into the franchise. I mean, the sequels didn't even use Coruscant.
Even George himself said his sequels would be hated by many if he did them. The answer to please the most people isn't doing Lucas' stuff but just doing good Star Wars.
@@mblair5327 but star wars is Lucas stuff.... Good and bad... You take the Art or leave it..... Did people forget The clone wars cartoon was his project?
@@mblair5327 fair enough, but why did lucas think they would be hated?
It was his vision to begin with, Disney might as well have followed the outlines for his sequels more or less so we could at least have a complete story, or just not do sequels at all and continue with other projects away from the Skywalkers.
@@geckomoriadaimyoofwano7157 he just said that because of the response the prequels got . Anyways if they did use his treatments, he wouldn’t have been directing, just writing and superintending a bit . He wanted to spend more time with his family and little daughter, he didn’t have time to direct a new Star Wars trilogy anymore especially since he’s getting up there in age . Unfortunately, he was under the impression not many fans liked the prequel trilogy (it turned out to be a loud minority that hated them) so he believed that his sequel trilogy would’ve been hated just as much but it’d be the story . Anyways from what I’ve heard of his plans for the sequels, it actually sounded really interesting. Darth Maul would’ve been in it and Darth Talon his apprentice . He would’ve been the head of the crime syndicate which took head in the power vacuum created by the collapse of the empire, it also would’ve dealt with Luke reestablishing the Jedi order and the rebuild of the republic. Luke and Leias children would also be the main characters . George was the one who came up with Rey who in his treatment was a character called Kira .
When Star Wars: Resistance was announced, I was under the impression that it would follow Star Wars: The Clone Wars’ lead, flesh out the Sequel era, & explain the state of things.
Then the show launched, & BOY WAS I WRONG. Lucasfilm is headed by people who are adamant on doing the bare minimum to tell a story, & are content to rely on brand name recognition to sell their “product”. I’m still a Star Wars fan, but the Sequels are a fart in the wind to me.
It’s like every writer of “sequel era” content is afraid of doing anything substantial, lest they step on the toes of other potential stories made by the higher ups. What you get… is a whole lot of nothing. The most ironic thing of all, is that the films themselves, the highest canon, were *also* afraid to do anything substantial.
…Except for Rian Johnson. And his additions were shit.
Fun fact, Filoni presided over that. Ah, but he's this great hope for the fans, stands up for fans, right?
Resistance wasn't bad if you take it for what it is. It was made for much younger kids so there was no chance it was going to follow the Clone Wars formula. Going from TV14 to Y7 is going to change the tone dramatically. Even SW Rebels (good show until the end) was too "adult" for young kids at times.
@@christophervincent77 TCW was also Y7, as was Rebels. I've seen the ratings online.
"like a turd... in the wind.."
I personally want the sequel trilogy *_redone_* -- this time actually sticking closely to Lucas' original story for them, and also actually using him as an advisory source in working on them. It's the only thing that's going to get me back at this point. The 'core saga' _was_ Star Wars for me. Without it - and no viable path to continue it - I simply don't care.
They missed their chance Carrie fisher is no longer here . So any sequel trilogy won’t deliver on the reunion of the original trilogy characters.
Did the Sequel Trilogy deliver on the reunion of the original trilogy characters?
Not to mention that Harrison Ford was conditional that he would only return to the franchise if Solo died. He's not coming back. He'll run Indiana Jones into the ground, but...apparently despises his role in Star Wars?
@@nuclearsimian3281 I lie Harrison but this has always confused me about him
@@nuclearsimian3281 , Ford wanted Han killed since Empire. At one point he wasn't even going to sign on for that either. They only had Fisher and Hamill contracted.
@@funkydiscogod
No they didn’t even have one scene all together
The sequel movies are cool sci fi flicks, like good cgi, cool spaceships, and big explosions….but they are a horrible addition to SW lore/canonical events.
No used to good scifi movies, are you? Usually the hallmark of good scifi is good writing and poor general execution (whether acting, effects, ect.) So, no they are not good stories, regardless scifi or not
@Odin the German Shepherd
Kinda how I see it. Fun movies to watch & zone out to, but not Star Wars.
I don't remember feeling any fun.
The "lore police" is Star Wars' greatest enemy!
@Lionard Kirsch then what is a good "flick?" Just flashing colors?
At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story.
Thor, as you said multiple times (including at the beginning of this video), the prequel trilogy had an amazing story, but unfortunately it was poorly executed. And that's the reason that the clone wars show worked, because you already had an amazing story, it just needed to be explored and fleshed out more, which the clone wars did, therefore adding to and improving the prequel trilogy.
With the sequel trilogy however, it's exactly the opposite. The execution is ok but the story itself is downright nonsensical. There is no real story. Nothing. There is nothing to work with. There is nothing to improve. There is nothing new to explore and add to because there is no NEW story, no coherent vision from start to finish. The sequel trilogy adds nothing new to the star wars world, it just recycles old ideas (The Force Awakens is nothing more than a 'remastered' version of A New Hope, it's 80% the same story just copy-pasted with upgraded visuals) or it deviates so much from already established stories and lore (the last Jedi) that in some cases it downright completely destroys what came before it in some cases (warp speed collision is just an example, Luke Skywalker as a character is another).
Say what you will about the prequel trilogy, but at least Lucas wanted to do something new, to add to the story and lore, to enrich it, he had a clear vision (even though he implemented it poorly in many cases).
All of these are reasons why i think the prequel trilogy is objectively MUCH better than the sequels, and i would dare go as far and say that overall, they are not bad movies at all (they just have bad moments).
What the prequels really had was amazing world building.
The prequels had great world building, themes, action scenes and their tone felt like the original trilogy it’s just that the execution of the story and some of the acting was bad. The sequel trilogy had nothing going for it except maybe decent looking effects
I agree. I think the only bad thing about the prequels is poor dialogue now and again. Everything else, the world building, the greater story, the addition to the Star Wars universe is astounding.
The Prequels were awesome! The only problems was there was too much cheese in the episode 1 and 2.
I watched a no cheese edit of episode 1 and it was 100% awsome. That movie just needed better editing.
No midichlorian explanations, 90% less Jar Jar, and the trade federation were menacing rather than goofy, just as some examples.
Also what no one seems to understand is that the Romance between Padme and Anikan was supposed to be terrible, it was never going to work out.
@@steverempel8584 where can I watch those versions?
I felt the Clone Wars had sincerity and genuine love of the source material behind it. The sequels lacked that.
Lol maybe because George was executive producer......... That was his project too.....
Dave Filoni and his team have always been huge fans of Star Wars, and understand how to make a coherent story that spans not only episodes and seasons of a show, but several different shows. That's why Clone Wars, Rebels, The Bad Batch, The Mandalorian are such good shows and well received. I'm honestly not sure about Resistance and why that didn't take off as much. I haven't seen it yet. It might have been because it was set in the sequels era, or the drastic change in art style compared to the previous animated shows.
The sequel movies though didn't have that love. I hold to the theory that they were a quick cash in after Disney bought the rights. They wanted to get movies out quickly to establish their brand on the franchise. And that quickness worked against them. Each of the movies was basically written in isolation from each other by people who didn't have that same passion for Star Wars. And it entirely shows in boring characters, recycled plots and stilted directing. Movies like Solo and Rogue One show they can do movies that understand the franchise. Just that the sequels wasn't it. So yeah.. I'm on the side of them just dropping them from canon and building on what the Mandalorian and the Ashoka tv shows have started for post Empire canon.
It undermined the continuity of the source material. EU fans have never forgiven Dave Filoni for this, ever.
@@saberiandream316 Yeah, we did. Feloni was the best thing to happen to Star Wars since the Timothy Zahn books. The SW EU went way off the rails and largely needed to die. As someone who read nearly all the books (up until they dropped a moon on Chewie), I was irritated at first but in retrospect I'm glad to see good creators cherry pick elements from the EU and weave them into canon.
@@christophervincent77 Way to completely sideline great authors like Drew Karpyshyn, Jude Watson, and Matt Stover there. Filoni changes the EU lore he touches, whether small or large, and makes it less interesting. I don't care if it's made "canon" again and frankly, if it WAS canon, then he has an obligation to get it right and he's never cared to do that with the rationalization "it's for kids," just insulting their intelligence as thinking beings. Frankly, making EU "canon" again without a continuation alongside the movies and TV series robs them of any sorta creativity the old EU had.
I’m happiest when I try to convince myself that there was no sequel trilogy.
I personally want the sequals out of cannon and remade. I would so incredibly much more enjoy that Luke/Grogu and rebuilding Jedi Order storyline than what we got. I hope it does happen at some point.
My only big issue I have with the Mandalorian is the fact that leads into the sequel trilogy.
Thats my problem with most side shows that run right now is that theyre now irriversably tied to these dumb sequel movies so they are trying to 'fix" them in the background with actions that justify the snoke shit for example as seen in the bad batch. But id rather just they refrain from touching anything sequel related with a 10 ft pole
😂 Everything woke turns to shit
Technically at this point it could diverge at some point like the first order being destroyed early into its rise or luke helping ben rather than thinking of killing him
And that's the only issue that actually matters-- because it tells you one thing doesn't it: that all of it is pointless. And to the idiots that actually think Filoni or Favreau are going to save your series and invalidate the sequels with their tv shows, lol. You people are hopeless consoomers who will grasp onto any thread that lets you retreat into escapism, no matter how tenuous, so you never have to acknowledge that Santa Claus isn't coming, that you're being played. But keep throwing your money at Disney+ and waiting forever for that redemption arc. The execs love your naivety.
So does the book of boba Fett
There is No Fixing a direct Assault on a Franchise, its themes, characters, cultural impacts, and Fanbase.
Well said. This was no accident or even poor leadership. Everything in this trilogy was calculated and decided upon with full intent to disrupt the culture around Star Wars.
I argue it can be fixed just not with the Sequels.
@@achaudhari101 I don't believe anyone has the time, resources, or will to pull it off.
@@achaudhari101 Star wars has gone from exciting me as a kid no matter where the content was set (ie prequels, OT, old and new republic expanded universe) to now being something I am wary of ie pirating the mandalorian/movies. It isnt something you trust just because of the brand and world associated with it anymore
@@checker297 this, though Alex has a really hard time grasping it.
You can't polish a turd. The sequels should be flushed down the toilet where they belong.
Make the Thrawn trilogy into movies, have Timothy Zawn in charge of these movies because he has a deep understanding of the story. If he doesn't know how to do Movie stuff, like with the camera/cinematography, hire someone to advise Zahn on how to use the camera, costume design, other stuff, but Zahn should be at the top giving the final word
The solution is simple: relegate the sequel trilogy to “legends”
On Disney plus edit the films to say episode vii: legends. This makes an original copy worth more. But this also decanonises the trilogy. Now they can redo the trilogy, bringing on Lucas as a consultant.
Been saying that since I walked out of the Mery Sue Awakens movie, to this day I haven't seen the following up abominations. But Disney will NEVER EVER do that, it would be like asking the biggest gaggle of narcissists on the planet to admit that they've made a mistake.
Will never happen. Disney would fundamentally have to admit they made a mistake they spent billions on. They won't do that. Their marketing analysts won't let them.
@@chunkmcbeefnob717 Made a mistake they spent billions on
And *made* billions on
There was a perfectly good source of material, that is now 'legends', the trouble is it was pretty much binned at the time instead of being utilised at least partly. It isn't a surprise that some of the more successful elements of recent star wars content do originate from it even if in a small way.
Agreed the Wu had its flaws but the sequel stories were far superior than what Disney came up with
Thrown out, stripped down, remade to avoid paying royalties, and just... eh. I want a new Legends novel so badly, but the fuckin' Mouse won't ever give it to me.
They are already backing away from the sequel era focusing on other periods in the Star Wars timeline. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point they introduce a 'new timeline' with a new trilogy laying it out. Probably not for another decade or so to avoid controversy but sooner or later they will make another trilogy and they can't just ignore the post Endor era forever.
Theyre not at all ignoring post endor, mando has been there for all of its seasons, so are a few other shows. What is being totally ignored is post ROS. They cancelled poe damerin book set after ROS and there is no other content that takes place during the sequel era or past it.
@@ChaoticMartian as it should be
Ohhh yes... The High Republic with gay and SJW Jedi. That would be just nice... Oh oh and a rock that pilots a ship. No thank you. Disney can kiss my a**. I am done with Star Wars.
More repackaging of stories we already have! Nothing new. It is EU without being EU because it will be void of the Legends banner _they THEMSELVES_ slapped on it back in 2014. That's their goal - they WANT to confuse you to what story takes place within which timeline, so that fans could pretend it is for the Legends timeline or the Disney timeline as they keep taking advantage of you. They are liars. Don't trust them.
Yeh even game developers are backing away and don't want to go anywhere near the sequel era lol. Star Wars: Hunters, Star eclipse, even games we've had already like Squadrons and Jedi Fallen Order are set far away from the sequels, the game devs are scared to go near the sequels era.
And i think Jon Favreau & Dave Filloni already have plans to deviate away from the sequel trilogy canon, their Mandoverse appears to straight out contradict the sequels, what with Luke turning up to take Grogu to train as his first student part of his new gen of Jedi, and this is a while before Ben Solo. Cobb Vanth seen in the opening chapter of S2 Mandalorian is a straight retcon from the Vanth character in "the road to the force awakens Aftermath novels" which are canon supposedly setting up the sequels.
It seems that Jon Favreau has blatantly ignored these and is creating his own "timeline" that stays true to George Lucas's 6-episode saga; and i think they will push this even further with Book of Boba Fett and the Ahsoka series, which will introduce "Grand Admiral Thrawn" into glorious Live-action. Some Rebels and TCW purists may ask - how will they connect Thrawn to the sequel's canon? I ask how can they!? He wouldn't have even known about Palpatine's secret Sith empire sitting on exolgol in cold-storage lol, and well does'nt Palpatine's death work in Thrawn's favor?
So i think Favreau & Filloni will do something very interesting with Thrawn as possibly a new main "big bad" in their new narrative or "timeline", and Thrawn will make for a more complex villain too.
In Return of the Jedi, Luke stands in front of one of the greatest mass murderers of the galaxy, and tells him that it's not too late. That he can still see the good in him.
In The Last Jedi, "Luke" stands in front of his sleeping nephew, sees some speck of evil in him, and decides to murder him in his sleep.
There is nothing that can fix the sequel trilogy.
In 1999 people were looking forward to the story of the fall of Anakin Skywalker and his adventures with Obi-wan. They were disapointed by the execution.
I don't think many people would have been too excited about a story of Luke hiding on an island and Palpatine somehow returning back in 2012.
They used false marketing exactly.
luke hiding on an island could have been so easy to explain. how i would do it is this: after the first order rises behind his back, luke goes into exile both to hide from FO sympathizers and to train, knowing he is just one person against an entire army. he then makes a map to his location so his allies could fetch him when the time to strike comes. not the best explanation, but that is what i would have to work with after TFA
How about just discarded...? Made non cannon
You make a new Episode 7 that starts with Luke waking up from a Force vision. He tells Grogu about the vision...detailing the sequel trilogy...and then you go back into a new story that takes place before The Force Awakens. Luke has to stop the First Order from rising...thus making the sequel trilogy still part of the canon but only as a long and terrible Force vision.
Problem solved.
I actually don't hate this
@@noneyabizness6094 Sequels = Ezra didn't save Ahsoka
@@hellacoorinna9995 I'm very aware of the Ahsoka lives theory, and advocate it regularly.
@@noneyabizness6094 It does certainly allow a built-in loophole.
@@hellacoorinna9995 agreed, though it cannot be stated enough that star wars would be better generally if it was not in a position where we needed such a plot device. I didn't like the world between worlds at all when It was introduced because I was worried they would go retcon crazy. Now all I want is for them to retcon the sequels out the main timeline and relegate them to " what if" status.
You know why the Marvel films have done so well? Disney made movies that stayed true to the source material while reaching out and expanding said material to a mainstream audience. Disney Star Wars spent three films ignoring the source material and essentially telling the hardcore fans that they were wrong for liking the series and the characters, all while leaning heavily into said source material to score nostalgia points. This combined to make a story that hardcore fans despised and mainstream fans didn't really care about. The sequels can't be saved because no amount of supporting material can explain Luke's fall, or Rey being so overpowered without training, or Kylo's erratic flipping between light and dark, or Palpatine being shoehorned in at the last minute to try and drag the final film out of a hole. They need to be forgotten and retconned. Unless Disney see profit in that, they won't do it. There is clearly profit in doing that, focusing on Mando, Grogu and maybe creating a New Jedi Order series that quietly retcons the sequels, because a small minority of people liked those films, and as bad at it may sound, the opinion of that minority doesn't count for much as they clearly don't understand Star Wars.
Star Wars Sequel Trilogy is an example of what you shouldn't do when you are making a movie trilogy
😠👎
The other issue with a "Clone wars-like" show for the sequels is that even if it was amazing and won emmys and whatnot we still have to come back to the horrible story decisions that the sequel trilogy had. And that's a no thanks for me.
Agreed there’s honestly not a single thing in the Disney trilogy, story wise that I would add to my head canon.
Resistance for example isn't bad, it's decent, it's attachment to the Sequels does damage to it.
If they didn't have that the writing would probably be at least slightly better.
@@ShadowWolfRising resistance is dogshit, like sooo bad.
It was a perfect example for why the sequels will never have good content
@@AndreNitroX legit the same. When I think of what the sequels did well, all I can give them is the cinematography and special effects. That's literally it. I dont find a single thing they did in the story compelling in any way since its either utter shit or something I already knew and have seen e.g rey being a "nobody", seen plenty of characters like that with acc development or rey having an important, powerful bloodline, also seen plenty of times
@@randalthekidd7006 It was at least better than the sequels, there were at least good ideas present.
The Sequels being an alternative timeline would still imply that the characters (namely, Luke and Han) _are capable_ of going downhill under specific circumstances. It'd still imply that a Sith _can_ achieve immortality, while the core concept of Star Wars is the battle between Selflessness and Selfishness. It'd still imply that all plot issues, such as the Holdo maneuver or becoming the Ultimate Jedi without proper training, ARE POSSIBLE.
I want the fix where this not JUST never happened, but never COULD happen.
The first point you mentioned is something I have been thinking about for a long time. That is why using the world between worlds wouldn't completely work. Because in the minds of many fans, the timeline might be erased, but the possibility that our heroes could end up the way they did in the so-called sequels is still there. And that makes many of us think less of our heroes. Erasing the 'sequels' is the only option, but I think I know how likely that is.
IIRC didn't Luke almost go downhill in Dark Empire, but Leia saved him? (DE is in Legends)
And SWTOR has Darth Marr, who became a Force Ghost?
At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem. I agree, RETCON the abysmal Disney sequels. Either make George's story, or just leave the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) be.
@@darkjediknight2923 I've thought the same thing. Do the trilogy Lucas intended or don't do anymore Star Wars.
@@toumbryth7862 100% agreed. I wanted to see George's sequels. From the rumour of them being about Luke restoring the Jedi Order, Leia/Han reunifying the galaxy (Alliance and Imperial factions) to battle corruption and there being an underworld crime lord (possibly Plageuis/Maul with Talon the Twilek apprentice) and the next Skywalker generation, it sounds like it would have been something special.
I truly wanted to see George's saga, nothing else. I loved Rogue One though. ROTJ was meant to be the happy ending. I think the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) should remain as it is, unless we get George's vision for any future story.
You can easily make books like "Labyrinth of Evil", "Rise of Darth Vader" into movies, or a live action TV series. And explore the Old Republic era (like the video games) as movies.
I'm one of those who does not want to see an attempt made to "justify" the ST. It was poorly thought out, poorly executed, and the new characters, while having great potential, were poorly used. The old characters, well what was done to them was terrible and what was done to Luke was unforgiveable. If Disney starts writing its forthcoming movies and TV shows to link up with the ST then I will simply not watch those efforts. Star Wars for me won't continue past a point in the timeline where we are seeing the ST setup take place. I'm more than capable of deciding what's worth investing my time and money in. Personally, I'd just as soon DIsney took the ST out of Canon but if they don't then so be it.
I agree with your assessment of the PT's flaws. With a few exceptions (Jar Jar, bratty Anakin) people liked the characters in the PT. In addition to having ready made setting to expand on them in TCW, people were happy to see more of them. It also helped greatly that the biggest new character introduced in the show, Ahsoka, became popular. The new characters on the ST were handled so poorly that those of us who dislike the ST just don't want to see them again. I listened to and enjoyed your "What if" story from start to finish but the least enjoyable parts were when the ST characters or Palpatine made an appearance.
As far as those who like the ST goes, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I don't understand why they feel the way they do but I accept it. I have never spent much time debating the matter with them and I don't go around insulting them.
Agreed. I think the best thing they can do now is just not come anywhere close to the sequels story wise and just leave it alone and build up everything else before them.
The best way to fix the sequel trilogy would be for a time machine to be invented, and then send George Lucas back in time.
To prevent the parents of everyone involved with the creation of these movies from ever meeting.
Or to prevent him from ever selling his franchise to these bloodsucking white slavers that are the Disney executives.
The thing with the sequels is the only way to fix them is to retcon them completely or making them a different universe from the core one. Mainly because not only did they screw up someone like Luke (and no extra comic set before the movie can fix that) but they even messed up their own new characters like Finn who would need a complete redo. The only reason im still seeing star wars media is because its set before the sequels and anything after I will not be touching if everything that happened in the sequels stays the same.
Disney burnt such a significant proportion of their fanbase with the sequels trying to distance themselves from previous beloved characters, that in an attempt to undo that monumental misstep they now rely on those past beloved characters to drive current and future interest in star wars. Yet all roads inevitably lead to the sequels...ironic isn't it...
Goodluck with that Disney..to quote the Simpsons: dig up, stupid.
They burnt the EU fans before that.
The rewriting and rehashing that happens in these sequels and many other sequels in other franchises as if there wasn't anything already established is mindboggling. Give me sequels that expand on the existing franchise, celebrating it, not rehashing, ignoring or conveniently forgetting what happened before. The only reason they can't seem to keep from fundamentally rewriting existing properties is that they're on a mission to do so, it's happening in all forms of entertainment.
I feel like the sequels showed to us that those who had Star Wars in their care had a crucial lack of understanding of what Star Wars means and what it is but also a lack of being true fans at heart.
Meanwhile Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau not only understand Star Wars but they love it. Compare how it felt seeing Luke in TLJ and in the Mandalorian. I rest my case.
I met a girl on POF. we were getting along great. Chatting everyday. Then this topic came up. She's a fan of the sequel trilogy. I'm not. As soon as we started to debate our reasons. She blocked me in mid type as I was responding. That's an example of where we're at with this
The situation with the sequels is very different from the one the prequels was in. As you mentioned, the prequels had a solid space opera drama going on about it, and one that had been planned from the beginning. Anakin's fall to the dark side over the course of a war that was ultimately manufactured with lots of smaller things happening along the way is a great starting point for something like the Clone Wars to run with. The building blocks were there. Like you said the execution was messy but the general gist was good. The sequels on the other hand was a compilation of directors visions that hardly meld with each other and to many, even fans of the sequels, reek of a lack of a solid foundation in its inception. The fact remains that for many fans who love these characters, the actions of the biggest players like Luke and Palpatine seem so nonsensical compared to their former selves that it almost comes off as fan fiction in some regards. Now you have comics coming out that reveal that Vader found Exegol. You have other questions that ask how and why would Palpatine account for his own defeat and then basically start from scratch. You have the notion of force diads with sith lords from that new Palpatine perspective book... the problem is that all of these questions and problems stem from the already poor foundation itself. If the foundation is shaky at best, how can one even try to fix it? People are just scratching their heads and just straight up not buying the bs. I wouldn't call myself a hater of the sequels, I'm just very disappointed in them. I don't think they'd scrape them from cannon, after all the last thing any company wants to do is admit that it was wrong, but I don't think there are many ways to "fix" the sequels either.
You have an excellent point there, also you accidentally used prequels instead of sequels.
@@spiderworld384 oh shoot you right
At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem. I agree, RETCON the abysmal Disney sequels. Either make George's story, or just leave the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) be.
@@darkjediknight2923 I wouldn't say retcon them per say. I agree that they should have done just about anything but what they did for the most part. I actually enjoyed ep 7 but I can't see myself watching it again because it's followed up by movies that don't meld with eachother well. Hell, I would have relatively okay with the scrapped ep 9 concept that was leaked. Preferably, I would have been a supporter of George's version of the sequels (which is admittedly very weird and a delve into the force itself so I don't think it would have been widely embraced outside of diehard fans) or an adaptation of the OG Thrawn Trilogy by Tim Zahn. But it's far too late for that now. At this point what I'm fine with (and what I think will happen) is that the sequels as they are will get some surrounding context here and there but Disney/Lucasfilm will go all in on their new High Republic Era. It's much easier to make new stuff and leave a divisive project to fade than to actively go back on it.
@@vincentmartucci861 It isn't just about them melding with each other. The entire point is ANY Saga film called EPISODE 7 should ACTUALLY BE AN EPISODE 7.
TFA was NOT an Episode 7. That is the entire problem. It doesn't continue the story. And furthermore, it is NOT the intention of George Lucas. At the end of the day, his is the only Episode 7 we should have seen on screen (along with his definitive sequels as a whole). It is utterly disrespectful to throw his story out. It is only complete stupidity to then not have a plan. And the saga is NOT meant to be about stupid random characters and not have any plot. There is zero point labelling a film "Episode 7" for the sake of it. There has to be a reason to exist.
The Zahn trilogy works to an extent because it shows respect for what came before and has some type of story. As for George's story, well:
Apparently it would have been epic:
1. George seeded in Plageuis into ROTS. It is likely he would have been this "Uber" villain in the rumours, rather than Maul. I.e. an ultimate villain seeking control of the Force itself and immorality. One which Luke and the Chosen One (Anakin) have to defeat.
2. He was going to tell the story of a galaxy in chaos and Luke/Leia/Han trying to combat corruption in the galactic government infrastructure (which the Alliance now control).
3. The galaxy has fiefdoms of warlords - some run by former Stormtroopers and Imperials.
4. Without the Empire to keep the galaxy in check, the crime syndicates have seized the opportunity to make a comeback.
5. A criminal underworld overlord (Uber) is the main villain and has a red Twilek dark side apprentice. This apprentice seduces the young Solo to the dark side. Clearly a more adult theme.
6. The story would have focused on the original heroes and the next generation of Skywalker (i.e. Luke's children)
7. Leia would reunify the galaxy into a New Republic by saga's end.
8. Luke would pass on Yoda's teachings to start a new Jedi Order
9. I am guessing that as well as new worlds, we would see Coruscant as well as the long lost first Jedi Temple.
10. Anakin and the Force ghosts were to feature.
11. The concept of the Whills - seeded in to TPM - and Qui Gon's influence would have been another part of the story. The premise of Destiny.
12. Think of it as a mix between Batman Begins (The League of Shadows), and a reimagined Prequel era with the concept of rebuilding and fighting corruption as well as exploring the nature of who the Jedi are and what they should be.
I can't fathom how people can like the sequels that much... Like, Disney just slapped together an unplanned, incoherent mess.
Heir to the Empire book trilogy needs to be made as rightful trilogy with a Luke/leia lightsaber training scene.
The Disney Wars "trilogy" is beyond saving and beyond fixing. It was a deliberate attempt at deconstructing what once was popular in order to politicize it and send a "message". The damage this attack did to the franchise as a whole is enormous - and I would say irreparable. In part because it is impossible to get the original characters back for a worthy send-off, but more importantly because as a company both lucasfilm and disney as a whole are apparently unwilling to impose actual consequences on the perpetrators. KK is still present with the company despite her abject failure in managing the IP. And so are her fellow ideologues. Even if they are allegedly removed from actual control, their mere presence means their influence remains - diminished though it may be. as such anything and everything put forth by Lucasfilm must be considered tainted at best, or a setup for another TLJ-esque "subversion of expectations" at worst. And I am having none of it.
This
100% with you.
Unfortunately, they threw out the hardcore fans in 2014 and have been chipping away at their customer base ever since. Since they remain so adamant against licensing new Legends-branded EU the way fans are constantly asking, I don't see Disney Star Wars management changing its flawed policies soon.
@@saberiandream316if the stock price keeps dropping, and D+ subs don't pick up, we should see things change in a hurry. What form and direction that change takes is certainly up for debate.
Yeah, the saga about some terrorists who fight in a civil war against a totalitarian regime is not politicized at all.
Jeezus, Kennedy certainly did a number on this franchise, especially after Lucas 100% trusted the viper in preserving his legacy?
He must be feeling so betrayed and bewildered, after what she pulled? I couldn’t imagine what he’s feeling, especially since she’s now a mega millionaire with all the power, instead of a shitty typist, all due to his genius???
That’s gratitude for ya!
Hi Thor! Still watching and loving your videos. Sorry I haven't commented much lately.
"...the only reason I think there's a chance they could overwrite the sequels is because the profit says you put Grogu and Luke together in a Jedi Academy/Clone Wars type animated series, and you have it not lead to the sequel trilogy, and you probably have one of the most popular series that you could even conceive putting out there."
Indeed! That's a series I'd love to see. The only problem (I think) is that animation is less popular than live action, even with Star Wars fans. Disney has the numbers for Mandalorian and for The Bad Batch, and the former are probably much larger than the latter.
But on the other hand, Luke Skywalker and Grogu are probably the two most popular characters. If you put them together in a series and tell awesome adventure stories (instead of stories about Luke becoming a bitter hermit), you could really catch fire with that concept. Maybe you could even bring in a whole new generation of Star Wars fans, like Clone Wars brought in fans after 2008.
I can see LucasFilm doing this _if_ they can make it lead to something. Like if the Luke and Grogu series becomes an incubator for creating a whole new group of fan favorite characters and sets up the galaxy for some big new story that's told in live action. If they could actually achieve this I think sidelining the sequel movies would be a foregone conclusion.
Disney basically did the corporatism thing. Rich Big Wigs bought the SW franchise and tried to make George Lucas' Star Wars, Their Star Wars. They chucked out the Prequels and Original Trilogies alongside the fans that loved them in favor of Their Trilogy and a new batch of customers from a wide vanilla base while pandering to political movements. The unierse surrounding the Sequels also had to be linked to the sequels because it's Their Star Wars and Their Big Wig Egos Are On The Line. They took a huge gamble of throwing away the people who would have always liked Star Wars in favor of customers that aren't all that into Sci Fi Adventures at the best and vehemently hate SW because "it's Patriarchy" at worst. The result was predictable. All the fans that loves Star Wars left and the people it was marketed to didn't pick up on it. **It flopped.**
And this is before all the bullshit with Rian "manbabies" Johnson and Galactic Minimal Effort Starliner.
I'd love to see them try, they will fail comically, but I would love to watch it. Not everyday one gets to watch the death of an era defining cultural artifact.
And no, series cannot fix the sequels, a total rewrite is the only way
Maybe for you, but overall there's a way
@@splashnskillz37 how? I'm very curious, considering how badly written the Disney stuff is, how can it be saved with more piled on top?
@@dark_fire_ice Showing the new republic before TFA how the ppl in canto bight corrupt it how careless it was towards the first order and them with it's spies within crumbling the new republic down, also the FO reckless behavior could be shown in a stormtrooper focused show where we see Finn for a bit and a lot of Phasma, Hux and Kylo Ren how he always feels obligated to take the wrong decision believing it's the only way, the abuse snoke did on him as well, going further back, Jedi Academy show showing Luke's struggle with his Jedi Order, then a post-tros show that leads a overarching conclusion like the Mando verse, with the sequel characters going through the challenge of a lawless Galaxy trying to restart the new republic, Rey dealing with consequence for the 1st time and along with Finn and I'd personally include Jannah Calrissian as well, restarting the Jedi order and being assisted by Grogu, Jacen Syndulla and a descendent of Cal Kestis as more experienced Jedi masters who were in hiding during the trilogy and then I would have a Dyad show as well that would link with X, XI and XII which in my view is nescessary for the saga (with a new villain)
That's how I'd do it but a team of ppl can do it better I believe, so there's ways to fix, and quitting is no option
@@splashnskillz37 that fixes the world building issues, but not the bad plot. TFA, TLJ, TROP all tell completely different "stories" ( TLJ is an anti story,) so no matter how much one adds, since the fundamentals are almost nonexistent, nothing will stand
@@dark_fire_ice well it improved, that's me on a comment on UA-cam, there's need for a case study and planning for the plot, but it's the monstrosity that's believed to be
Sometimes I like to imagine that Sequel trilogy was officially labeled as "Legends", Disney decided to step away from making more sequels and create spinoff series like Thrawn trilogy, thus returning them to canon.
Unfortunately, more likely KK reveal herself as a Scrull in disguise than for that to happen - disney almost never admits any mistakes
their strategy right now seems to be "neglect it and hope it gets forgotten"
People often criticise older Star Wars fans of being bigoted or "man-babies."
Really?! We're talking the same fans who love characters like Leia and Lando? Come on, we just want well written characters and stories with respect for the lore.
Rian Johnson meant the fandom menace
Not to diss anyone who likes the sequels but it’s funny seeing some Disney Star Wars fans like Quinlanboss on Instagram calling Thor Skywalker toxic all just because he doesn’t like the sequels and the way how Kathy is handling the franchise when Thor is literally chill & respectful when talking about stuff like this and is respectful towards other peoples different opinions.
The word "toxic" really holds no meaning or weight anymore, does it? I'm so tired of hearing it.
I think a large obstacle to the sequel trilogy is the already engrained attitudes of the 2 extremes and Disney's poor handling of trying smooth over the animosity now entrenched.
The other issue I see is the main actors stating they are done with it now. You need them, at least for star wars, for continuity.
Probably the best way is a post credit scene in Episode IX showing Rick Moranis reprising his role as Dark Helmet waking up among a stack of pizza boxes and VHS tapes of the first six Star Wars movies, insinuating that the sequel trilogy is a dream by a Spaceballs character. Otherwise, I just ignore them. The first six movies stand on their own with no sequel necessary. I similarly ignore all Terminator movies after the first two, and all the sequels to Poltergeist, etc.
One fascinating aspect of the sequels is how it has altered my opinion of the prequels. I was 4 when the original 1977 Star Wars came out and have been a huge Star Wars fan pretty much my whole life. When the prequels came out they were underwhelming, but I still saw each move in the theaters and have seen them on video a couple more over the years. But I've come to have a real fondness for the prequels now because they were the films Lucas wanted to make. Were they well made? Well they weren't executed as well as they could, but I've never once doubted or questioned the story Lucas told in those films. I've never once considered even one frame of film from the prequels to be thrown out from the cannon.
But the sequels are so dreadful, so cynical, so devoid of feeling and fun, so poorly written, and so lacking in respect to the old material, that it makes the prequels look a lot better in comparison.
That's quite an accomplishment - to make three sequel movies so badly that it makes the three underwhelming prequels films better.
Agreed. I used to really dislike episode 1 and 2. I'm still not overly fond of them (think they have a lot of issues; too much green screening, did episode 1 even need to happen, etc), but they still felt like Star Wars. The lore and the worldbuilding, I still felt like this was the same universe. Seeing the sequels made me re-evaluate the prequels and be like hey, maybe I don't like them as much as 4-6, but they still feel like the same story, same universe, same tones, they fit. The sequels just don't fit, period.
The simple answer to your question is: There is NO WAY of fixing the sequels like the prequels were fixed. Why Is that? Also simple: The prequels, although badly executed, were written and directed by the creator himself with the purpose of telling a good story, that’s why a series like The Clone Wars, made by a guy who truly leves Star Wars and understands what it is all about, managed to “fix” the prequels; the sequels however were terribly executed (with 0 planning whatsoever) and with the purpose of corrupting a 40 years old franchise which managed to reach a mythos level in order to turn it into a platform to push forward a nocive agenda of pure darkness down people’s throats with little regard to the creator, the fans and all that came before in the franchise (legends).
This is why there is no possible way, IN MY OPINION, to fix the sequels. Best push it under the rug and forget it ever happened.
Exactly! At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem. I agree, RETCON the abysmal Disney sequels. Either make George's story, or just leave the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) be. The prequels are the creator's intention and vision. I loved the OT. I also love the PT. Yes, I might change certain dialogue (primarily in AOTC), but it's a phenomenal and cohesive story that feels like one saga. TFA is just nonsensical and I genuinely cannot believe anyone in good conscience could make that and say it's Episode 7. The only way to fix this mess, is to obliterate the "Disney sequels" from the official canon.
@@darkjediknight2923 Indeed, my friend. However I'll ad here, because I forgot to say it in the post, that certain concepts introduced in the sequel trilogy, like Starkiller Base, the whole Force Dyad thing and the world of Hexegol are amazing things that can still be used better in other media, should our prayers for the erasure of the sequels be answerd.
@@felipemesquita7697 Yes, we are in agreement. They can indeed be utilised in an imaginative story (anthology films outside of the saga) with proper characters and an actual plot sure. Star Wars itself has so much endless potential. It is literally a galaxy far far away. I hope that we get proper sequels and George's vision for the saga. Oh what could have been. There are also excellent books like Labyrinth of Evil, Rise of Darth Vader, Conclave at Kessel etc or the Old Republic video games that could be made into phenomenal movies. Even the originally intended TV series by George with the writers of 24 to be set on Coruscant sounds epic.
Fanfix: before Luke wakes up Ben Solo about to kill him, he sent Grogu off in a pod so he wouldn’t be captured. The pod traveled for a long time to a galaxy far far away. Grogu’s pod crashed on the Kent farm where he grew up and became Superman.
I don't want them fixed. I want them flushed.
The problem with the ST is the creatively bankrupt pencil pusher risk averse sociopaths coopting a market tested asset to see black on their next quarter. These things are films by committee, not artists. They're concocted by middle managers who think "anyone can do it! Being creative is easy!" They're the same people who keeps adding "dark" or "rise" into movie titles because they think it's cool even though it means nothing to the film.
I've found myself caring less and less about the concept of canon as of late. It seems like every big franchise film has to be 'fixed' or 'saved' or have concepts added onto it or explained by books, videogames, comics or even tweets. I think it's fair to compare and contrast films within the same franchise. However, deeming a film 'good' after new media has been released, which further explains what the film could not truly shows the fragility of these films when put up to scrutiny and truly shows the desperation in their respective fanbases to have halfway decent content. It honestly is depressing.
You mean Attack of the Clones?
@@swellerferret2506 No that was good at the time it came out.
@@emberfist8347 I agree, but was the idea that the movie was only good because of something that was related to the movie, which means the movie alone is not good enough to be a good movie?
@@swellerferret2506 No as a stand-alone film it is a good movie.
@@emberfist8347 Well, it’s just my interpretation of Max point or opinion.
Sunday commentary is always a good reflection point
Disney wrote themselves into a corner with poor writing, poor producing, and poor directing. We know who to blame.
I'm in the camp of wanting the sequels gone. I mean, Disney cast out hundreds of stories to the "Legends" with the stroke of a pen. They absolutely can do this with movies. But as you say, it comes down to money. And I don't know that Disney knows where to get their next load of cash from because there is no metric that says "x percent of fans want this." I'm sure they're aware of how divisive the sequels are, and they must know that nobody is buying Rey action figures or anything like that (but Grogu is selling like hotcakes). But I will say that there is a small minority of fans who like the sequels and they are very vocal about it. And since fan reaction is sort of like that bar DJ who asks for patrons to cheer for their favorite band or whatever, the loudest voices will carry the day. I was on the "Star tours" ride at Disneyland with my kids back over Christmas. I've been on it several times and I roll my eyes with all the sequel scenes, but whatever. But this last time, there was a group of people who were cheering like they'd won the lottery. Maybe they'd never been before and they were just super excited--who knows--but I couldn't help but think that this group were big fans of the sequels and were just super-pumped to see Kylo Ren up on that screen. I've never before had that happen--had other people make fools of themselves cheering during a ride.
Anyway, there is no fixing the sequels by adding a complimentary show like Clone Wars. Why? Because the problems with the prequels were in direction and execution. The story worked. The characters worked. The Clone Wars added depth to what already existed. For the sequels ... the story does not work. The characters do not work. There simply is nothing you can do to fix that without scrapping it all and trying again.
But here's something nobody really mentions. the sequels are unrelated to the first six films. They're an entirely different story. I mean, Rogue One has more in common with the original story than the sequels and Rogue One didn't even get an opening crawl. The first six films present a narrative arc from beginning to end. It's the story of Anakin Skywalker becoming a Jedi, falling to the dark side and becoming Darth Vader, then his children redeem him and he ultimately breaks free and dies as Anakin Skywalker after sacrificing himself to save Luke. That was THE central story. The sequels have nothing to do with that. Anakin is never even mentioned.
The best thing Disney could do is to use the World Between Worlds and create a multiverse. It's working great for Spiderman. A multiverse would allow fans of the sequels to still have their movies while also allowing everyone else to get the story they wanted to see. And that story is Luke and his new Jedi Order. That single episode of The Mandalorian was the most exciting thing to happen to Star Wars in probably more than a decade if not more. You probably have to go back to latter half of Episode III to see that sort of excitement. Seeing Luke dismantle those Dark Troopers, seeing him meet Grogu ... it was emotional, it was bold, it was what we all wanted. If Disney was smart, they'd give the fans what they want.
The day Rian Johnson called me a "manchild" for not liking TLJ was the moment when I wanted it erased from the canon. No, I had real, logical criticism beforehand. I had rational reasons to dislike the sequels. Then I got called a fucking manchild by the most immature moron who apparently wanted half the audience to hate his movies, but then when half the audience hated the movie, his response was to call the detractors "manchildren" and to say to the audience that the franchise is _ONLY_ for children.
I don’t blame him. There are people in this very comment section talking about how the sequels are part of a plot by Communists to subvert western Judeo-Christian values. (I wish I was making that up.) You cannot ignore the fact that a significant part of the backlash, especially the part that was harassing actresses, comes from unhinged manchildren.
Here's the thing, they got made and we can't go back in time. It's time to move on. If we, the fans, can't get over a dark patch in an over 40 year old franchise then it's not going to survive. They are trying to move on with us. That's why there's so little coming out specifically about the sequel trilogy. This is where we need to apply Kylo Ren's line "let the past die." Let the sequel trilogy be a "pot-hole" in the "road" of Star Wars.
And we would all love to move on, but an apology and some real accountability for KK, JJ, and RJ would do wonders in greasing those wheels.
Ruin Johnson called us toxic man-babies and other childish insults because his feelers got hurt that so many of us hated his movie. He lost as soon as he did that. Throwing insults is an admission of defeat. And really though, who cares? If an idiot director makes a garbage movie and then blames the fans, that's his problem. We didn't write, edit, market or have any hand in its creation. It's failure is all him. He can say whatever he likes, that fact doesn't change.
Kathleen doesn't appear good at interacting with humans. She's made some poor decisions, but she really just strikes me as another "out of touch" person in power. Her biggest crime was not having a story arch and required continuity between the episodes of the trilogy and the rest of canon. She's really the most at fault in this scenario.
JJ did what JJ does. Why is anyone surprised? He's the least at fault here. Episode 7 was perfectly adequate to have someone set up some questions and shit to think about going into the rest of the trilogy. And that's what JJ excels at.
No. There must be consequences. They don't get to attack the fans and trash the mythos with wild abandon, then just "not talk about all of that" and expect us to forget, nor even forgive. Yours is the mentality of the abused cur, taking the master's beating from one hand, returning for the paltry morsel in the other, and believing all is as it should be. They don't deserve our loyalty. The same people who did these things are the ones still there, today. Until *they* either apologize (abjectly!) or are eliminated, and genuine steps are taken to restore trust, there is no path forward with them.
@@somosUS there have been consequences. And the kind they care about. Lack of sales. Why else do you think they are shifting away so fast? Why do you think there is now no talk about Johnson's supposed trilogy?
And I'm no abused cur, I'm just not letting something so silly ruin the rest of my life. They don't have that kind of power over me. I love the franchise, but if some knobheads want to come in an ruin it, well that sucks, but my entire identity isn't defined by Star Wars and I'll find some other fantasy universe to dive into and support with my sweet, sweet money.
@Topside’s Cinecade yes! When Sidious was reincarnated in legends, everyone was seemingly fine with it. He gets reincarnated in the sequel trilogy and it's one of the most offensive things done in whole trilogy.
Not everything in legends was great. Some of it was hot garbage. The new sequel trilogy, is kinda hot garbage. And Solo was extremely "meh." But Rogue One was great. Mando was great. Visions was really entertaining. Book of Boba looks extremely promising. I've been to the black spire outpost in Disneyland, and thought it was really neat.
For me, the most disappointing thing of the sequel trilogy is the wasted potential on what could have been really cool and new iconic characters. Finn was primed to be one of the coolest Star Wars characters ever. Stormtrooper, technically first order trooper, turned Jedi. Kylo Ren was also primed to be really interesting and have lots of depth. Hell, even Poe was successfully pulling off "new Han Solo" really well, at first. But I digress...
They need to be ERASED! And I've been saying that since I walked out of the Mery Sue Awakens, to this day I haven't seen the following up abominations. But Disney will NEVER EVER do that, it would be like asking the biggest gaggle of narcissists on the planet to admit that they've made a mistake and then do something about it.
Ha! From a boomer's point of view, I felt about prequels just as you guys feel about Disney trilogy. Lucas clearly didn't care at all about things he himself established in the OT. These clunky old movies heavily imply or outright state that:
- "Darth" is a first name,
- Obi-Wan and Anakin met as adults (the whole of Phantom Menace exists to explain the line "When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot" in a most convoluted, cartoonish and awkward way possible),
- Owen Lars is Anakin's brother, or at least knew him well in his youth,
- Anakin left Tatooine of his own volition, to take part in "idealistic crusade", of which Lars disapproved,
- there were very few Jedi even in the Old Republic and they probably didn't hold any political power (it seems the Force is a half-forgotten religion even to people who must have remembered Clone Wars),
- Leia remembers her mother. This means they must have went into hiding together ("you were hidden from your father when you were born") and Leia's mother died at least 2-3 years later,
- Anakin knew he had a son and left his lightsaber for him BEFORE he was turned to the dark side,
- Obi-Wan changed his first name to Ben BEFORE Luke and Leia were born,
- Obi-Wan was a student of Yoda,
- Obi-Wan's decision to train Anakin was his own, not Qui-Gon's ("I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda."). Perhaps even in defiance of Yoda?
- Empire was established during or even before the Clone Wars (this one is the most open to interpretation, but Obi-Wan refers to Palpatine as Emperor when recalling events of the Clone Wars)
Etc, etc. Disney isn't the first one to poop all over tradition. I might argue it was even more painful with the prequels - as one might reasonably expect to get junk from a bunch of greedy suits, but in 1999 Star Wars were murdered by revered George Lucas himself.
Also, I don't get the "prequels tell an amazing story" line repeated in the comments. The prequel stories me and my friends came up with in 1990s when playing Star Wars RPG were much better, including the one with Anakin turning to the dark side because twins' mother cheated on him with Obi-Wan. It explained perfectly why Obi-Wan is so eager to lie to Luke about his father's death. He's the one directly responsible for Anakin's fall and the general state of affairs in the Galaxy, so the only way not to paint himself as an ultimate villain (and ultimate jerk, with all this banging friend's wife and then trying to kill him) is to outright lie. Hell, if we go with that, Obi-Wan might have been the biological father to Luke and Leia; this would ramp up the tragedy of an already tragic story up to eleven! So when Vader says "no, I am your father!" he's deluding himself, longing for a son he never really had! Unfortunately, George went with his sanitized, convoluted and really boring parody of an origin story.
What was one of the messages of the sequels? Something about
"Forget the past, kill it if you have to."
I say we honor the sequels by following their advice. Forget them, decanonize them, let them die in their failure.
There are only 6 films and the old EU is the motto I say
The message of the prequels is and must be: Cranial Rectosis is a terminal and contagious condition of the soul akin to dry rot. One becomes incapable of any noble or selfless thought or motivation and is unable to write such a character.
Yeah, they killed it - in 2014. Not 2017.
Exactly.
Perfect way to treat these abominations.
this is the best comment in the entire comment section
I personally hated the sequels from Force Awakens onward, and want to see them retconned via the World Between Worlds. My main thoughts from seeing The Force Awakens were: This is just Spectacle Creep from 1977 and, where the H3-LL did Snoke come from? However, I saw that Cinema Therapy likes the sequels, and considered Kylo Ren a scarier villain than Darth Vader based on the host’s expertise on real-life psychology.
Having a psychology degree myself, I also completely understand why Disney executives use statistics and spreadsheets. Taking statistical analytics is how a person or committee has the time to listen to millions of fans. The conflicting data may explain some things I’ve seen in the Mandalorian which I suspect of already laying the groundwork for some kind of fix. These would include Moff Gideon’s cloning facility being reliant on Grogu’s Force-sensitive DNA, and the fetal clones therein bearing at least superficial resemblance to Snoke.
Whether the upcoming MandoVerse is going to try and fill the plot holes leading up to The Force Awakens, or dump the sequels as we know them into an alternate timeline, I think it’s too soon to tell. Whichever course Disney ultimately decides to go down, I trust that Dave Filoni will execute it to maximum effect. As a popular reviewer from another fandom has said: There are no bad ideas, just bad executions.
If they hint to the sequels anymore in Mando, many people will just give it up
Yep, I absolutely hated TFA as I was watching the predictable and uninspired story for the 1st time in the theatre. What a letdown.
Sequels = Ezra Bridger didn't save Ahsoka
@@hellacoorinna9995 Except Ahsoka is always saved by Ezra.
@@BMHorakhty Sayingnit, doesn't necessarily make it an unchanging fact.
The best thing Disney could do is an apology statement to the fans for a trilogy with no plan and story that was slapped out and put into production as soon as the contract was signed. Second would be to make a new sequel serious through television shows.
Bad writing and some questionable characters aside, the real crime of the sequel trilogy began with Episode 7 and not taking the opportunity to have Han, Luke and Leia together and not showing Luke at the height of his Jedi power. Showing him lose Ben/Kylo to the dark side as part of that film would have been so much more rewarding than what we got. Covering R2-D2, best character of the franchise, with a tarp for 90% of the film is a crime against humanity. And the Millennium Falcon is sitting on some random planet as junk - that would be like the Wright Flyer, Spirit of St. Louis, Enola Gay or Apollo 11 capsule just being tossed.
Nothing short of going back in a time machine and warning George that Kathy/Disney was going ruin his legacy is going to completely fix the mess the sequels made.
Heck, the biggest thing Disney can do to fix relations with the fans at this moment in time is get rid of Kathy and clean house at Lucasflim, but they don’t have even have the balls to do that...
Agreed. "Back to the Future 4" - Doc and Marty go back to warn George Lucas, save Star Wars and save the space time continuum. At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem. I agree, RETCON the abysmal Disney sequels. Either make George's story, or just leave the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) be.
I would have been open to a show that fixes the sequels and I think it could have been done well. However, I ultimately know that the sequels lead to the resurrection of palpatine, which is unacceptable to me. Palpatine's return completely nullifies Vader's sacrifice in ROTJ and that automatically makes me want the sequels to be retconned, or at least TROS.
Palpatine being resurrected is an easy retcon. All Disney had to do was explain, early in Ep7, that Palpatine actually planned the entire timeline including his death and his ultimate goal was doing something greater, which I envision would be a Force Ghost THAT CAN STILL INTERACT WITH THE LIVING.
But you can see that Palpatine was a last minute inclusion to Ep9.
It doesn´t nullify Vader´s sacrifice but it nullifies the prophecy about Anakin being the chosen one who will destroy the Sith and bring ballance to the Force because he didn´t destroy Palpy.
@@Mysikrysa it does completely, his sacrifice has no weight and Vader knew about sequel bullshit so he just doesn’t say that
With respect to the folks who "like" them: These movies suffered from a lack of internal consistency. They did so many things that contradict not only the previous body of Star Wars material, but themselves as well.
These films need to be "Dallas-ed."
Highlander 2'd
The sequels are so fundamentally wrong-headed they can't be saved. They are a Frankenstein monster, part hack exploitation, part ideologically hostile "deconstruction."
There is only one way to fix the sequel trilogy. Aim the Death Star's planet destroying laser cannon at them, and fire!
LOL!
You May Fire When Ready
@@sith7183 Rodger that!
Step 1: make the eclipse canonical
Step 2: aim it at starkiller base (it's weak point or the canon mouth)
That's what I would do to the fandom menace
The best they can do is make good side stories about some of the characters. The critics will accept that it's good if they can make Finn a good character. The trilogy itself is unfixable because it's broken at it's foundation.
TFA wasn't an Episode 7. The saga shouldn't be about these random characters. If they wanted to do that, they should have made separate films. At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem. RETCON the abysmal Disney sequels. Either make George's story, or just leave the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) be.
The sad part is I loved the initial outlines of most of the sequel characters. An ex-stormtrooper, an ace pilot hot-shot, an orphan scraping to get by through scavenging dead star destroyers, a powerful dark sider who actively attempts to reject the pull to the light - thats some cool stuff!! Unfortunately, the sequel-constructed world in which these characters inhabit is, in my opinion, fundamentally broken and unless the story beats in their respective canon arcs change drastically (like pretty hard reset drastically) I can’t see them being much more than wasted potential.
Expanded Universe timeline > Sequel timeline. It was kind of a slap in the face to everyone who already invested time/money in plenty of books, comics, video games, action figures and audiobooks that were just thrown aside.
Removing these from canon and remaking the Sequels would fix literally everything wrong with Star Wars imo. I would love that. On the contrary, trying to save the Sequels by making more cannon material will really push me away even more. If The Mandalorian turns into that, Disney will have lost me completely.
At the end of the day, the most respectful thing to have done would have been to have produced George Lucas' actual sequel story to ensure the whole saga was the intention of the saga's creator. Then you have the creator's vision and his definitive story. George always told an ongoing story. The Disney sequels are just flat out garbage with no story, and they don't continue from ROTJ at all. TFA is not an Episode 7, and therein lies the problem. I agree, RETCON the abysmal Disney sequels. Either make George's story, or just leave the saga (Episodes 1 to 6) be.
Unfortunately I think that’s where the Mandalorian is headed as they made small little winks to the sequels. Gideon talking about restoring “Order,” the failed snoke looking clones in the season 2 finale, and the need for the empire to capture Grogu (likely to create a vessel for Palpatine). I’m really enjoying the Mandalorian, but these little nods to sequels make me think that Disney will never abandon their crappy movies. I hope I’m wrong though.
@@stevequincy388 Yes that's what it is. I don't think people have clicked onto that despite the blatant open references to the Disney sequels. They already have the Disney "New Republic", the Snoke stuff, no real coherent explanation of the galaxy and any Imperial being point blank evil for the sake of it. Frankly I found the only interesting part about the Mandalorian was Baby Yoda. And now he's gone.
My big problem in jettisoning them is WHERE DO THEY GO? You can't remake the sequels without Carrie Fisher, _and she's dead!_ Star Wars under the Mouse has been a branding nightmare and no one has paid for this more than EU fans, and you casual fans are whining about the goddamned sequels? Get over it. I have the Legends EU. I don't need whatever crap streaming show or movie the Mouse squeezes out. You want the Luke Skywalker as you knew him, then push for new EU, don't just keep hoping the sequels are erased. Filoni and Favreau are NEVER going to do that. _Ever._
Soyboys and Reylos: “They won’t remake the Sequel Trilogy, they put a lot of money into it. No studio would throw it all alway just to remake a new timeline . . .”
Me: . . . X-Men: Days of Future Past . . . Star Trek 2009 . . .
Bitch SPIDER-MAN, Batman, Superman,
My biggest problem is how they undid everything that the OT did in their three movies. The New Republic, is gone. Luke’s Jedi Order, also gone.
Well at least the Empire is gone.
They reorganized into the First Order.
The second they started killing the OG characters I was out. We waited almost 40 years to see the people we grew up with, and they didn't even have the decency to give us one scene with them all together again. I actually liked the new characters, but they should have come in on the second film, and have the first with the original cast.
At this point, the ST has been stricken from my head canon, just like some of the worst books from the old EU. I don't care if they try to "fix" it or not, they're just non entities to me.
I'm fine with Mando and Boba just doing their own thing and not connecting with this "ST".
If anything, I wish they would take The Ninth Jedi anime and make a live action trilogy out of it. All the pieces are already in place, story-wise. All they need is a director and a brand new cast.
Ninth Jedi was awesome!