Keep in mind the underperformance of many German clubs in large stadiums has brought the Bundesliga average down. When Heidenheim in their 15k stadium is in the top flight instead of Schalke in their 62k stadium it causes a natural drop
Was going to say the same thing. 5 of the top 10 biggest stadiums aren't in the Bundesliga. In addition the Bundesliga has Keil and Union as well which have smaller stadiums
@@GodfatherBoxSet yes, they nearly rebuilt the stadium to nearly double the capacity to 37700, with most of them being standing. Probably the best new stadium being planned right now.
What ive noticed working at a non league club is more and more youbg people (15-25) have been attending games lower down in non league. I feel the growing age of efl and epl attendances is affecting this as kids cant afford to go to those league sides so they spend 5-10 quid for a ticket at a non league club and its improving the atmosphere loads at lower levels
@MrRafting tbf in the national league it can still be extortionate, Aldershot town whos one of my locals charge 20 quid for an adult ticket which imo is stupud amounts for the level
I agree with you and in the 80s and early 90s most working class people couldn't afford luxuries like match day tickets due to still being in recovery from the thatcher destruction .
Best time I’ve had at football have been at Solihull Moors where the ticket cost £10 and the game finished 7-2 to Moors. Corby Town’s away support were on a stag do and it was great. Fuck the EPL.
Here's a horrendous example at Forest So a 17 year old sat in the main stand would have paid £95 for their season ticket in our first season in the premier league. This same person in 23-24 would've paid £195 for the same seat as an 18 year old already an increase of over 100% (and no, their age category did not change). The same person would have then paid £850 for the same seat as a 19 year old as the club deleted the age category and charged anybody over 17 adult prices. What 19 year old has fucking 850 quid to fork out on a ticket that cost them less than 300 quid over the last two seasons.
Excellent point. I am "Over 63" and my 23-game Millwall Season Ticket to play the likes of Leeds, Burnley, Sheff Utd, Boro, Sunderland, etc cost £11 ELEVEN POUNDS in THe Upper Home Tier a fame.
Looking at Bundesliga attendances you have to consider that big Clubs with huge Stadiums Like Schalke and Hamburg are now in the 2nd Division and small Clubs with small Stadiums are now in the Bundesliga
i think there was even a matchday where the 2nd devision screenings had more live views than the 1st. and these great clubs see as good as none of the tv money
This is one of the only reasons big overseas investors are appreciated. Someone coming in, putting money into a struggling club from 2nd or 3rd div. The massive rise they get, old fans come back, public popularity rises, tickets sales incase etc etc. these “sleeping giants” already have a big name, and a big stadium. If someone like Stevenage gets promoted, they stuck with a 8k stadium. Where as if schalke got promoted, they already got a 60k stadium! The fans and the results can appreciate it immediately, and not be stuck working for 5 years for a new stadium, and then get relegated etc
As an Eintracht fan who saw the team yo-yo a few times, I can say going to a 2te Bundesliga game has more charm than the Bundesliga, where it is much more businesslike.
Big six or sky six please. The top six is a league position earned on the pitch but the big/sky six refers more clearly to the media and arguably refereeing favouritism
@@Kanbei11bro literally nobody is using that term, I think everyone knows what you mean when you say “big 6” anyway. Obviously it’s not all about on-pitch success, it’s about revenue and popularity as well.
Working class fans have been priced out in favour of tourists who can pay for the "premium" experience and have no real attachment to the clubs. I go to Scottish lowland league games with an average attendance of 1-200 and theres a better atmosphere there for £10
Arne Slot described the most surprising thing he's found in English football is that you can take family and children to away games without second thought, whereas in the Netherlands you'd be wary of letting them attend. I think that's a good thing. The bad thing is the pricing and gentrification.
Well, in the Bundesliga it's completely normal for away fans sitting in the home area as long as it's not in the standing section where the Ultras are. In England on the other hand when German fans sat in the home section because there are so few allocated tickets on European away games they got beaten up by a viscious mob. That happened several times now...
@@yaneyd93 It's strange because no matter what, when English fans go to European games, they're attack by vicious mobs in Police uniform. Look at the 2021 Champions League final when the Paris Police deliberately tried to cause another Hillsborough/Heysel event.
I have been to premier league matches, as well as have season tickets to Vfb Stuttgart. I was shocked at how much more reserved/mellow the premier league is compared to Bundesliga. Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga, even Ekstraklasa are all more lively and entertaining.
@@juanjoseph- That's because they are massive problems with racism in both those leagues. Small, vocal minority of idiots, so I don't think it's everyone, but you can see it all the way from here (US). Ok, as a life long fan of the sport, I am admittedly just getting interested in Bundesliga. I love LaLiga and Prem, and am also getting into Italian matches...but why do German Clubs have extra initials that aren't part of the name of the club or city? Seriously interested in that. My kids and I were trying to understand what that all means. Example: BVB Dortman, RB Leipzig, or VfB Stuttgart?
@@lostsoldier212 The initials are the short form of the officially registered name. F.e. VfB Stuttgart in full form stands for Verein(Club) für (for) Bewegungsspiele (movement sports) Stuttgart 1893 e.V.(registered club).
Bay fow bay = bvb = ball game club Rb = Rasenballsport = lawn ball games (Red Bull sponsored, changed to get around calling them Red Bull Leipzig) Vfb = Verein für Bewegungsspiele = Association for active games Same as a club being "united" or "athletic club", just German
The funny thing about the "you're going home in an f-ing ambulance" chant has always been that ambulances don't actually take you home, they take you to a hospital.
@apropercuppa8612 I have been taken home in an ambulance. If you disagree that I have, or disagree that it was an ambulance, that will not change the fact.
That sounds like the most expensive Über ever (speaking as an American). We have people who rather ride scooters while bleeding out than take an ambulance because of the insane costs...what is that like in the UK? Is it cheaper for your medical insurance?
They can afford it more than the 80s and early 90s while we were still recovering from thatcher . Nowadays even people on benefits have enough extra cash for a season ticket
@JPayne95 what lie ? In the late 80s and 90s working class people had little expendable income and getting things on credit and finance was a lot harder than nowadays . Back then most households I knew had 1 TV for example and if you knew someone with sky or cable it was amazing . Nowadays people on benefits can get finance for a new car or fairly new car pretty easily and everyone has multiple tvs and multiple tv subscriptions and broadband . Everyone has a phone nowadays we even give them free to immigrants we take in legally back then maybe 2 or 3 people in the street had a home phone everyone would ask to use in emergencies etc . There's lots of examples I could give but I'll leave it at that for now
Because it's been sanitised beyond belief. Different tiers of hospitality, chasing the tourism club shopping money and alienating their traditional supporters with the cost of going to watch.
People are too busy bickering about which side has the worse fans or X stadium is a library, that they don't see the woods for the trees. The premier league sold all integrity and enthusiasm for the game for huge riches. For me at least, supporting a PL club (especially the top six) is akin to supporting a corporation that will gouge you for every penny you have while you cheer them on doing so.
I think the problem is the premier league not individual clubs. The reason is that sporting success is always a zero sum game. In English football that has meant that almost all success has gone to the richest clubs who can buy the best players. So, it's not that the owners have got filthy rich by owning a football club but more of the opposite, filthy rich people have bought successful football clubs. And the key here is that since the league allows the rich clubs to buy the best players and always win the league, then they all try to do that. The good side of that is that the best players in the world play in the PL. The bad side is that since the clubs have to finance that somehow they have to price gauge their infinite resource, their fans. In Germany, where the clubs are owned by their fans they don't have that many good players in the clubs (which is why one club has basically dominated the league for a very long time). If you look at the current CL table, English clubs are 1, 8, 10, 12. German clubs are 7, 13, 17, 32.
Well, if watching the PL is too "compromised" today, then go see your local lads in your after work league. It's ridiculous to hear Brit after Brit just whining about "the good ole days" instead of understanding that the PL is a GLOBAL EVENT now and that always comes at a cost - You want to see the best players and managers in World football every week (hint: brits never were), that costs money. - Want to be able to bet on every game in every division, easily? that costs money. - Want to have more merchandising about your club? that costs money - Want to go to a more comfortable stadium without floods or rats running around (like Old Trafford)? That costs money as well - Want to see your team win? that needs money! If you don't value any of that and just want 'excitement"; a few Sunday football leagues can give you that for a couple of quid. Otherwise, understand where the PL is now and make up your mind: run with it and embrace the model, or just stop supporting and tell all your lads to do as well; maybe things will change
The City Ground has a capacity just shy of 30,000. There are 23,000 season card holders, and the away allocation is usually around 2,500, which leaves very few tickets for "tourists" and leads to a better atmosphere. Not that there are many tickets available for tourists as club members get first dibs and there are only about 1,000 available for general sale (which is done via a raffle). Basically you have to be a Forest fan to get a Forest ticket.
That's great if you're a season ticket holder. If you're not but a long time fan and would like to see at least a single game in a season, it's shit. Your choices are either to join those raffles and most likely not get a ticket or buy the exorbitantly priced tourist ticket. And if the answer is "just buy a season ticket", then sure , but that route is also closed. There's a massive waiting list that doesn't move because anyone who has a season ticket knows that it's more than its weight in gold and never gives it up.
@@srelma Yeah it's the same with Brighton. 30,000 seat stadium, but most are season ticket holders. The few tickets that are available to the public are extortionately priced and often in the arse end of the stadium up in the rafters. I'm a long time fan, but I rarely ever get to go to game anymore. It's fine if you're happy going along to a mid-week League Cup game on a rainy Tuesday night, in a half-empty stadium watching basically a 2nd-string reserve team taking on lower league opposition, but it'll still cost you like 30 quid, and you have to book it weeks in advance. But if you want to watch a Premier League game against anyone half decent, or (God forbid) a top 6 team, good luck with that. Have you earned enough 'Loyalty Points' by attending 70% of home games over the last 3 seasons? No? Oh, well sorry....no tickets for you. What, so I basically have to have been a season ticket holder WITHOUT being a season ticket holder to have a chance of seeing my team play Man United?? It's bollocks, basically.
It's astonishing that my local club - South Shields - sells terraced tickets for £16 now. They're in the 6th tier of English football. And the atmosphere is bloody great! Plenty of young supporters there as well. Go support your grassroots local teams instead of watching the big teams!
Best way to do it i support chesterfield and the price for a home ticket is £20 but we sell out home most weeks and the atmosphere is fantastic no matter whose playing.
League of Ireland is fairly affordable and if rugby us your thing (which it is for me, my dad, two of his brothers and their dad) Munster terrace tickets are €20-€25
From a Radcliffe fan, I agree, get to your local, at my local club, it’s free if your under 16, the atmosphere brilliant, end to end football. Wish your lot the best for the rest of the season.
Forest are currently the exception probably, but they are still quite new - Wolves were exactly the same for 3-4 seasons, superb boisterous atmosphere, but when clubs of our size have had their brief excursion to top flight football and the adrenalin gradually nosedives because of the unlevel playing field, things gradually die off. My 20-year old son now goes to Hednesford for a tenner whereas Wolves charge me £750 for a season ticket. My last season. Hate the premier league, hate the top tourist clubs, hate VAR, hate Sky, everything is gradually dying. Top clubs fans are bored with success and domination, lower clubs have no chance of anything.
I have WONDERFUL news especially, if, like me, you are "Over 63 as my 23-game Millwall Season Ticket to play the likes of Leeds, Burnley, Sheff Utd, Boro, Sunderland, etc costs £11 ELEVEN POUNDS in The Upper Home Tier a game. See you next season
@@OldWolflad Thanks for your reply M8. I knew you were a youngster.I am in my 8th decade anf my firrst Millwall game v Hull City on the 3rd September,1962 when we won 5/1.It's been downhill ever since.
Not rocket science Alfie, it’s the cost. It costs £55 to watch Everton at home, my son and daughter can’t afford to go. Also the strict limit on away fans kills the atmosphere
Limit on away fans? You should go to a Serie A stadium unless It's Inter, Juve or Milan fans then away supporters are barely existent because of the extremely strict rules
It's just not at all true that the war on football fans "intensified" after Hillsborough as claimed in the video. The peak for government interest in regulating fans was in the mid-80s; Hillsborough was a big part of the end of that approach. It led to a recognition that fans should be treated better, fences should come down and stadiums should be improved. The Taylor Report brought in all-seated stadiums. There's an extent to which Hillsborough actually started the gentrification of football in England, because seats, new stands and stadiums and better facilities all came with substantially increased ticket prices.
Prophetic words from Roy Keane concerning prawn sandwiches, then? Was a life ambition being from Downunder to experience a PL match at Old Trafford. But Alfie, you've turned me off the idea, no regrets. Better atmosphere at an Ashes test.
Excellent video Alfie, as always. Best narrator ever, and excellent point on the issue. Me as an Argentinian, a lot of times asked my self the question of "why english atmospheres are so boring and cold chested?" (pecho frío in spanish, wich is an "insult" referring to the lack of passion), you gave me the most complete answer.
@@dondamon4669 and that's not a compliment. Regular argentinians deeply hate hooliganism because the clubs themselves haven't done enough to control them. Any local game (stadiums are in the middle of residential areas) can result in half the neighborhood destroyed and bystanders hurt or dead, for stupid reasons
@@gadget00 that's how it was in England. Argentinan football seems very similar to English football during the 70s and 80s. As Alfie explained this is why there's no fan culture anymore as the government killed it.
It’s because it used to be 98% men now it’s only 67%, I’ve sang songs and had the 3 women infront of me turn around and give me evils, it stops men from standing up and starting songs off…
im from mexico and watch MLS and Liga MX matches. the fan atmosphere is very loud and active in supporter sections. when ever i watch english football above league 1, the atmosphere is somewhat reserved
West Ham is an example of how to ruin a football club. From one of the most intense, raucous and intimidating stadiums full of history, club culture and community… they are nothing but a business tourist attraction now, and the atmosphere is a great example. Its extremely sad there owners have sold there soul for their own pockets.
As an American, the atmosphere during Premier League games is so bad that NBC (the broadcaster who has the rights to the Premier League in the US) has had to pipe in crowd noise in recent years in an attempt to amplify the atmosphere. Speaking of atmosphere, one thing that MLS & the Premier League have in common is that the atmosphere at games in both leagues is bad (though MLS trails way behind the Premier League when it comes to average attendance). There are exceptions to this in MLS with teams like Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, Columbus, Austin & LAFC all having raucous crowds at home games. A major reason why the atmosphere at MLS games is bad in most cases is because football/soccer is still viewed as a family friendly sport & as a result the vast majority of fans attending games are families with children. Contrast this with the NFL & especially college football where the atmospheres are always loud. This is not to say that there aren't great atmospheres in the US when it comes to football/soccer as like in England, they are found in the lower leagues specifically the USL Championship. For example, this past summer I attended an Oakland Roots match & the atmosphere was excellent as the crowd was totally engaged for the whole 90 minutes.
Ice hockey was an interesting atmosphere. Went to a Pittsburgh Penguins match a few years back when staying overnight (am UK based). The crowd were definitely into it, but it seemed to mainly consist of the announcer telling people to cheer and then they cheered. Wasn't sure what to make of it all Tbf, I can imagine the atmospheres maybe being better at Canadian hockey games, and the NFL / college football games being slightly more authentic stateside. Goes with the territory etc
Things they need to encourage and allow: - banners and flags - safe standing in home and away ends - cheap tickets for the safe standing areas - beer in the ground - kids pens - club involvement and backing of vociferous home supporters' groups including assistance to finance tifos etc.
Compared to Germany, England is very fan-unfriendly. You are not allowed to drink beer on the stands which is crazy to hear for Germans. When I heard that the first time I could not believe it. Beer is part of the football culture like Bratwurst in Germany.
@@hektorfrisch4547it also was in England until hooliganism in the 80s. I believe Scotland banned it after the 1980 Hampden Riot whilst England banned it after Hillsborough Disaster in 1989. No one was in a position to complain at the time as the preceeding events were so horrific.
You bring up a good point. I remember not too long ago when St. James' Park and Selhurst Park were madhouses while Anfield, Old Trafford and Goodison Park could get pretty loud. Now, they're generally pretty silent, save for the ultras group at Selhurst.
Please do a vid on the 7 biggest teams that flopped. Teams that were expected to dominate and yet completely and utterly failed. I think of the galacticos and psg when I imagine this.
I’m certainly not one to defend either of those sides, but Real Madrid did win a champions league and 2 la Liga titles during that the first galaticos era, and in the second galaticos era they literally dominated Europe more than any other team in football. PSG is a weird one because you’d be hard pressed to argue they haven’t dominated domestically but it’s that champions league trophy that they desperately want that’s evaded them. They’ve only really come close once. There is another video on the channel that goes into much more detail on PSG.
Arsenal have 90,000 person waiting list for season tickets - if they could actually add even half that amount of seats to their current stadium they would have 100,000+ every game … would they lower ticket prices though? Would they f**k
Just an honest and clear review of the current situation in the world of football attendance n stadiums. I’m 66yr old pensioner and season ticket holder at Villa in the Holte End, and yes absolutely suffered the violence in the 70s, trust me not nice at all. But hate this new theme of bleeding the real fans dry of every penny 😡🙁
In a nutshell. The atmosphere was better in the 90's/2000's when the average age of the crowd was much lower. Massive ticket price rises now means youngsters cannot afford tickets and that's why games are now full of middle aged supporters who just want a comfy seat and a pie.
Great idea for a video. I was at Old Trafford a few years ago and was told by a fan "if you want to cheer go to the pub"😂 Edit: I've just remembered I wasn't a league game it was a cup game against... HULL! I think Fellaini scored the winner and Mourinho slated the fans for being so quiet after the game.
The cost makes a massive difference and has been brewing for 20+ years When my club Pompey got promoted from Div 1 my student/YP season ticket was £110. After promotion the student/YP rates were scraped and my ticket went up to over 600 so I didn’t renew. I missed most of our premier league years as I couldn’t afford to go. I started going on the regular again after we were relegated to league 2
As explained in the video, the tickets to fans are still underpriced compared to other forms of entertainment, where the price is set as high as possible while still filling the venue. The premier league tickets, especially for the big clubs are underpriced, as the clubs want them to go to their loyal fans more than to general market. If they stopped rewarding club loyalty, they would be able to sell the tickets at higher price. The result is that those without a season ticket find it almost impossible to get a ticket. And season tickets never come to be sold in the open market.
@@craigchristian344 the point is that it's almost impossible to get to a PL game because the tickets are underpriced and snatched by the people with a season ticket who'll never give them up. As said, it's great if you're a season ticket holder.as you get your ticket well below the market price. It sucks if you're not.
@@indiekiddrugpatrol3117 simple supply and demand. At the current prices all games are sold out, which means that the price is too low. People would be willing to pay more to get a ticket. Imagine any other product that were sold out all the time. The producer would definitely increase the price until there would be some games when the tickets are not sold out. The current system treats the season ticket holders and those with loyalty as entitled. They get to go to games at lower price than what the market is willing to pay. And they never lose their entitled status as long as they renew their season ticket/go to enough games to qualify as loyal fans. Other fans as just screwed as they have two options. Hope to get a ticket in a lottery (fat chance) or pay for the ridiculously expensive (hundreds of pounds per ticket) hospitality package. And the cruel thing is that no matter how long they stay as members, they'll never get to collect enough loyalty as they never get enough tickets to bump up to the next tier.
Great video, so much to think about. I'd echo the whole age profile thing. When I first went to watch Liverpool regularly at the turn of the century - yes, I am old - I joined in every chant and jumped around like a mad thing at every opportunity. Nowadays I like to pick my moments, and they're gradually getting further apart. And here's the kicker: I'm a season ticket holder. I applied in 2001 and finally got one on the summer of...wait for it....2023! The waiting list closed years ago so everyone currently on it must be at least in their mid-20's, and even then only if someone put them on it when they were born. More likely there is no one under the age of 30 on the list, and there's no way I'm dropping off it. I'd literally never get one again. So I'm the equivalent of a bed blocker, preventing the next generation of supporter coming through who would join in every chant and jump around like a mad thing at every opportunity. I don't know what the solution is. The first step to one is, as always, to admit there's a problem.
As someone who is 25 and has tried to go to games as much as I could for Arsenal for the last few years. It's a fortune to travel, it costs me an entire day's pay to go see one game not including tax. If I did that every week I'd be unable to eat it's impossible to pay for football and life. Every aspect of the prem is designed to suck my bank account dry, my dad told me story's of him chasing Arsenal to every game in a car and honestly how? I've never even seen an away ticket let alone dream of seeing more than 1 away game in a season. It's not just age profile but stagnant money and the sheer cost of top-flight football. Including 3 extremely overpriced subscriptions to watch Arsenal legally, so the issue of money is everything and like most young people I'd rather save what little money to repair my car when it bracks due to government negligence on road maintenance.
@kino6395 I'm certain it's not 'just age profile', it's one of a bunch of things and pricing out young people who have seen prices of tickets rise year-on-year while wages remained stagnant is absolutely one of those things. When I lived back home in Ireland a few years back I remember talking to an Arsenal fan who was not broke but was questioning the wisdom of dropping the guts of a thousand euro on flights which spike on football weekends and accommodation/food in an expensive city at the best of times, all the whole trying to liaise with friends - it's meant to be a social experience, right? And you can't even be sure of getting a good game of football! I'm lucky that my wife is from Liverpool so I was able to stay with her family, and we both live here now, but I dread to think what the cost would have been over the years of even a relatively good value city like Liverpool if I didn't have that backstop.
A ticket to watch my local Ligue 1 side costs around 50-75~€ and you get a good spot. I paid 100€ for a good Champions League seat. I remember my brother having to pay 200£ to watch West Ham - Southampton to fulfill his dream of watching a Hammers match live and being floored by that price
That's still a pretty high price when compared to other leagues, I pay around 25€ for a seated ticket in Mönchengladbach and 16€ for a standing ticket.
Our prices for single games are ridiculous, tho €200 is higher than I even knew we charged. We have the cheapest season tickets in the league, mine cost me £630 or around that n in like the 5th row behind the goal, but single match tickets start at like £60 which is ludicrous to me Also, I’m so sorry your brothers dream was to watch us play, if it’s the Southampton match I’m thinking of on Boxing Day a few years back, we lost it as well… atleast he got the full West Ham experience ⚒️
As an Aussie who has watched English football all his life, before the global EPL hype, unfortunately the easiest and only way for us to get a ticket is getting a corporate hospitality one. Even trying to go to a championship game, you need to create an online account, jump through hoops, hop, do an interpretive dance all to get a ticket. If I can’t get a hospitality ticket when I’m in the UK, I’d rather just go non league or get a Eurostar and watch a random game in Belgium, the Netherlands or Germany.
So it's basically: - Older People - More expensive tickets - Women - The fans being resigned to not having much power with regards to the team (unlike the german fans) - Fans seeing themselves as a mere audience instead of active participants.
It depends when it comes to Women... I'm one of them and one of the biggest football fans you'll find. Know by heart 10 of my club's chants. If terraces still existed i wouldn't have a problem. If you're talking about families that come with their children... I can see it, even worse when they have a dedicated stand for them.
Cost is the main issue - working class and young people (the people who sing and make noise) people can't afford to go - top flight English footy is now a gentrified, middle class past time hence the quiet crowds - it's akin to going to the theater.
Football conversations are often boring when youre from a town with a Non-League Club Always about Arsenal/Chelsea/Liverpool/Man Utd/Man City/Newcastle/Spurs/West Ham
Best German players in the premier league of all time. (Day 694) Alternativly you could do "Best German players who played outside the Bundesliga" or something like that if you prefer. I will not give up until the video is made or Alfie himself tells me to stop. Everyone else telling me that will be ignored. If you don't believe my number, just go back to the previous videos. I'm at the bottom most of the time, but I'm there.
Who do you see in the list? Most top German players I can think of either never played in the Prem or went on to do bigger and better things elsewhere.
Depends the football standard was poorer of course but the availability for working class was much better as it was cheaper and represented the area more. Now city and united fans for example are all over the country
My local tickets is 12£ adults. If your a veteran it's free...there are waiting list for prem season tickets! When I went in early 90s there was no internet, mobiles and tons of footy on TV. Life was about getting by, no internet meant communicating and finding out things. Life is fast today, too fast.
I think the answer is simple: All the overseas clubs have Ultras. Clubs in England don't really have ultras. There isn't a segment of fans who just chant and bang drums all game long. It's not just that though. They are organized, they are the ones who come up with chants and they are the ones who lead protests if need be. England needs that too. The only club that I can think of who have anything approximating ultras is Crystal Palace.
It's highly unlikely for it to exist on a wider scale in English football simple because most supporters of English football clubs ridicule the elements like drums or whistling as being annoying, and therefore, "un-English".
Down at exeter despite only having a smaller ground compared go most the 'big bank' terrace behind the goal is consistently loud (drum included) and regularly out sing home fans when playing away. Granted I'm biased but like you I can't think of another club like it
@@theheadbangguy5985 The example you gave is very apt for me, to be honest. Us Turks tend to get more passionate about football in general. On a side note, I don't support Galatasaray, but rather, Göztepe (who coincidentally are majority-owned by the same people who own Southampton). Then again, attendance-wise, only a number of clubs in the Süper Lig surpass the 14K threshold, those at the moment being the so-called 3 İstanbul giants, the Black Sea rivals Trabzonspor and Samsunspor, as well as the sole representant from the third-largest city in Turkey in the SL, ourselves.
I went on Newcastle United's reddit page and said that we should get a drummer to help enhance our atmosphere, to make it more intimidating and loud like the atmospheres in Europe. The response I got was incredibly negative, I got berated, and one person said that drummers are "too loud". It's a football match! It's supposed to be loud!
Large parts of St James Park is like gods waiting room now. People who've had their season ticket for 20/30/40 years and won't give it up (why would they? The OAP season ticket rate is crazy cheap) but seems to turn up just to moan about everything.
I imagine that atmosphere problems in the Premier League have a lot of similar roots to the quite, corporate atmospheres in the American Big 4 men's sports leagues (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL). Those leagues have priced out a lot of average fans and a lot of people who are there are older, quieter, wealthier and mainly there to be seen, not to root for the team. MLS atmospheres still aren't nearly as good as soccer/football leagues in other parts of the world, but since most teams have encouraged supporters clubs and built terraced sections the atmospheres in MLS are generally better than the other American pro sports. College sports in America, particularly Division 1 (American) football, men's basketball and men's hockey usually have much better atmospheres than their pro counterparts due to many of the factors you attributed to louder fans. Tickets are cheaper and there are more young, drunk fans and a Student Section standing all together that approximate supporters sections in football leagues across the world. EDIT: I will note that I do think that one of the good things about American sports, even though it sacrifices atmosphere to a great degree, is that opposing fans are generally friendly with each other, are mixed throughout seats and concourses, there is very little police presence compared to other countries and you almost never feel like you need to fear for your safety to attend any game in any city (except perhaps Philadelphia Eaglse playoff games).
Nice video, HITC. But I have to correct you about your statement on 15:05 - There hasn't been lethal encounters in Bulgarian football hooliganism except one death of a fan in 2001 which was then described as incident (the man was hit with a hand-made bomb on his back while sitting at a coffee shop while two groups of fans were fighting each other) altough I have to agree occassionally there are fights in the stands at the derbies and no survailance cameras so it's not really family-friendly. But apart from that at the club stadiums I would say it's safe and family-friendly. You are right that attendance is weak apart from the big teams and stadiums are very bad, old and not maintained at all (except two or three new stadiums which are currently under construction and main sectors at some of the old stadiums).
1:30 the thing with the Bundesliga attendances is that big clubs with large stadiums and supporter bases (i.e. Hamburg, Kaiserslautern, Berlin, Schalke) were replaced by corporate clubs with few fans (i.e. Leverkusen. Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim) and small clubs from the rich south with lots of sponsorship money but small stadiums (i.e. Freiburg, Augsburg, Heidenheim, Mainz (also Kiel this season, but their from the north)). i think in total attendances in germany have developed like in England, much of it has simply happened in the 2. Bundesliga.
Not really. Leverkusen have been Bundesliga side for decades and Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim still have average sized stadiums(about 30k). Its because clubs like Union, Heidenheim, Kiel are now in Bundesliga with stadiums that have under 20k capacity. Prem has just Bournemouth with stadium that had under 10k capacity. However your point about big clubs you mentioned alingside Köln, Hannover and Nuremberg are in Bundesliga 2
Just a quick note. Those young folk from the 70s are now the old folk of today. And they were the 40 year olds of the early 2000s. Besides the youth being priced out today, one must note that these old people have been religiously attending matches for decades, and make financial sacrifices in other parts of their lives to do so
But they've aged and became more financially stable as ticket prices have increased. Since the 90s it's been impossible for working class kids to pay a few quid at the turnstile like they used to.
It is the same with English international games, the English just don’t know how to create a good atmosphere at sporting events. The clubs don’t have fans or supporters in their eyes, just customers. The top English league and teams have been sold to owners with no real connection to the communities that the clubs are attached to.
i left our village in 2003 to return in 2010 & i immediately noticed how when walking our Dogs around a village of over 4,000 folk (it being the semi rural / Eastern suburban tip of a metropolitan area of 470,000 10 miles west ) , how , after 18:30 , you can hear a Gnat fart. something has made the English in general much much quieter than the days before 2003. Even strolling around the place during long warm summer nights , i noticed one single experience of hearing folk behaving as if they were enjoying their lives by laughing loudly. The village isn’t a designated Elephants Graveyard neither because it has 2 Primary Schools . I don’t think it’s just Football , the south of England at least is - after 18:30 , like being in a giant Library. and it’s not Peaceful, it’s Silence.
Fr I been a cowboys fan and mavs fan my whole life when I go to their games the atmospheres aren't the greatest I find the mavs games more exciting than the cowboys ones atmosphere wise but I can tell which are real fans, bandwagon fans, and foreigners that just support just to fit in meanwhile at longhorns games (im a UTAustin alumni) they're much more exciting and we have our chants
It depends on the game and team. Chiefs, 49ers, Green Bay, eagles, bills, Steelers, Seahawks and more have amazing atmospheres and especially in the playoffs
@@georgehenan853 I mean chiefs and Seahawks do. They both held the record for loudest outdoor stadium in world (chiefs still hold the record) so you tell me
@@BOZ_11 I'm not sure what your point is. Unlike cinemas, the PL clubs are making a lot more money from ticket sales as both the ticket prices and the attendance has increased. I don't know how the age profile of the fans relates to this in any way.
Some great points about the overall demographic, economy, and societal/cultral changes in England, Europe, and overall "first world" in this video. As a Korean that played a bit during my school years, I often thought that stadiums should be made more family safe. The tickets used to be cheap and drinks and other things were not regulated but this meant that most supporters in the stadiums were drunk working class people that weren't a decent lot. I've fought more than a few men that tried to seduce my friends or my sister's friends, who were almost always wearing their school uniforms because they were 14-18YOs, with drinks. Violent fights among fans were pretty common as well. Interestingly enough, baseball which had a similar issue, has overtaken football in popularity by making the stadiums more family friendly. The by-product is stadiums filled with "casual" fans who are more there for the chants and cheerleading than the baseball, and thus as in this video, baseball games feel more like an entertainment than a sport, but the atmosphere is a lot better than the half empty football games that are still toxic. Korean football fandom has changed a bit, benchmarking the baseball league's approach, but the core sense of nastiness is still there with many long term football fans even cultivating an elitist hatred toward newer "casual" fans.
Joking aside this part of it. Hooliganism and disasters like Hillsborough and Bradford. Led to careful policing of fan behaviour and compulsory seating.
My man, I must ask you something: How does it feel? Having nailing every aspect of the theme! Congrats. Great video. Keep on the good work. Cheers from Brazil. We are fighting here the "arenization" (modern arenas enviroment in contrast with the "classic and popular stadiums").
Support your local! As a York City, there’s a lot more youngsters going games now and the attendance figures are very healthy. It’s a shame the PL is so plastic now
I went regularly late 90s and early 2000s. There was definitely a shift in atmosphere developing and it's worsened since. There's some exceptions, like when a team returns to a top league after many years. But generally it's a sign of how capitalism has killed the game. There's the lack of hope of actually winning anything. There's the assumption you have to play negative football to survive. Assumption for 99% of clubs your best players and youth products will leave. There's the bleak sponsors and ownership, the clear prioritisation of money over the sport and the community. And then there's the players. The wages that have become incomprehensible, even for very poor and average players. While crowds see their living standards drop and ticket prices rise.
I was very fortunate to have been a season ticket holder at Manchester United from 2011-2017, and fair to say I experienced all sorts of atmospheres at OT in that period. Generally, the atmospheres at most PL games were flat, excluding the big fixtures, or when United were chasing the game. I anticipated European matches so much, knowing that the atmosphere would always be great. There's a video titled 'Man United vs Real Madrid best atmosphere ever' by Jon Huggans from 2013, a match I was lucky enough to attend, and it is only a snapshot of what the atmosphere was like from an hour before KO and throughout the entirety of the match. I have attended several matches since 2017, with difficulties in securing tickets ever an issue with United, and the atmospheres have not once been impressive. I am sure United's own downfall on the pitch has contributed to worsening match day atmospheres, but the wider socio-economic factors are overwhelmingly damaging.
In The Championship i.e THe SECOND Tier ., I am "Over 63" and my 23-game Millwall Season Ticket to play the likes of Leeds, Burnley, Sheff Utd, Boro, Sunderland, etc costs... ... £11 ELEVEN POUNDS in The Upper Home Tier a game.
@@olimercer835 Hello M8. With a concession,my local struggling National League South team charges £12, and nearby, Charlton,a Division lower, as you know, charges £26 though,in both cases, that is the individual matchday price not the Prorated Season Ticket price but still:). Good Luck.
Great video, the drop in Bundesliga attendances can be based on the size of the grounds of teams being promoted. My team FC Union sell out every week but obviously have a smaller stadium capacity than that other team in Hamburg, Shalke, or the half full Olympic Stadion to name a few. That said, seeing ourselves, Kiel and Heidenheim in the top flight is what football is all about. I'm sure there's a marketing weasel talking to the EPL bosses bemoaning AFC Bournmouth being in it rather than RB Leeds. Anyhow, keep up the good work.
The Premier League has basically become a tourist attraction, especially the 'big 6' it isn't aimed at working class people anymore. Also I feel a big part is down the style of play teams use now. It's no longer high risk passing or wiping balls into the box thats exciting and get people out of their seats which in turn creates atmosphere. It's very side ways and just pass, pass and pass again. Don't get me wrong it can be great but imagine being a Man City fan and watching them pass the ball around for 80 mins. BORING!
Really good video and an interesting listen, although I'm surprised you didn't touch on the lack of ultras culture in the Premier League. I know some teams have had groups attempt to pop up, with Palace and Arsenal being good examples, but the English fanbase hasn't embraced it properly yet and often actually rejects it. "Wot the fackin 'ell is that?" It's an atmosphere, mate.
In German there is the term "12. Mann" (12th man) to refer to supporters implying that they can make a difference like having an additional player on the pitch.
@StonedCabbage and what trash team did you go watch? To say "the worst premiere league is better then the NFLs best" is dumb. The loudest outdoor stadium in the world belongs to an nfl team
Aye but if the trend continues they'll be about the same soon. That's why there's so much hate for Americans in English football, its not so much the people it's just a recognition and fear of the growing Americanisation and corporatisation of football.
Best guess is too many plastic fans at all prem clubs, including the small ones hoping to get to watch a big club in the flesh. Good example is Forest who barely filled the stands in the championship. Once they got promoted, all the lads who have Forest as their 'Second team' turn up in their retro shirt to watch them play against Liverpool or something, and make it difficult for actual fans to get a ticket.
It comes down to the mentality of the fans tbh, In England people don't want to be chanting the whole game like in Germany. Nor do they want Ultras, which most other clubs have. Even the Saudi clubs have ultras. Crystal Palace are the only team that do it different, and there are many people who criticise them for it.
@ArgousNautus because people in england want to watch the game and have authentic reactions. The chants are authentic, the cheers and boos are authentic. The quiet spells are authentic. Overall its a real experience. Whereas in Germany for example, everything is planned. They all know what to chant and when. Which is why it is always so coordinated and non stop. Some people like that, others would rather watch a game and react with real emotion in key moments.
Having just got back from Istanbul, I’m not sure alcohol isn’t playing a part in Turkish football atmospheres 😂 but broader point still stands for sure
@@RenegadeMaster137 I mean, alcohol isn't really consumed within the stadia in Turkey, but in daily life, especially in the western parts of the country, people feel freer with drinking without any sense of guilt. It also correlates, for the most part, with one's politics here. The further west you go, the more people consuming alcohol - especially in the Aegean and Thracian parts.
@@abnormalanorak As someone who went to many games in Turkey and Germany without drinking a single drop of alcohol I can assure you that alcohol is not the driving factor in these countries having a better atmosphere than England. First and foremost due to the Ultra culture there is constant singing and support in the stadium at all times. Secondly the fans in these countries are more passionate about their teams. Hence Trabzon which, as you know, is a very conservative city, has a better atmosphere with an half empty stadium than every PL team. But the same issues described in England also exist in Turkey specifically as our government has destroyed the economy making it impossible for working class people to attend matches regularly
I mean the drink has been blamed for ruining the atmosphere at Ireland internationals at Landsdowne Road. I stick to a pint a half but the amount of people going to to the bar from the seats in either half is ludicrous.
11:52 last Saturday here in Costa Rica there was the costarican clasico, Saprissa vs Alajuelense, and on my life that the stadium (Saprissa was hosting) was as loud as it has been in ages and only gets that loud recently in the last minutes of a final when we are about to be crowned champions... this wasn't a final. Our conclusion (my mates and I that regularly go to the stadium) was that with a concert of Argentine artist WOS that same day and a very high class Halloween Party (remember Costa Rica is small af) the demographics of the Saprissa supporters that day was of more loud and passionate fans than the average Saturday in which the people who went to WOS or a party instead of the match, attend matches. Saprissa stadium is 21k, those halloween parties near 1k and WOS had 5k spectators, all of that in a 356k city, I didn't saw some of the faces I usually see, the main example being that instead of the fans that spend 90% of the match trying to get the perfect picture of the floodlights and sky at the background, I saw people that celebrated when we won 50/50 challenges and throw ins, when some matches you stand up for a corner and get told "suelo suelo" which means to sit down. The result of a Saprissa stadium without the fans that opted to miss the biggest game in the country to attend a halloween party or a concert, as true diehard fans do, was a loud and hostile for Alajuelense (visiting team) match that ended an unbeaten streak that started after losing last year final 3-0 on this same stadium. Unbeaten leaders and they lost 3-0 again against sixth placed Saprissa, we played well but imo the atmosphere played its part. Before 2011 we played our national team games there and Landon Donovan said it was the most difficult ground he played at in his career. Don't have anything against the match attending fans that want the perfect picture for the gram but they can sing as well imo. Here are the highlights of the match if you are curious and bored enough to watch the costarican derby highlights: ua-cam.com/video/bbU0KRUWRoQ/v-deo.html And here are the highlights of the final in which the atmosphere was even louder: ua-cam.com/video/raA3vqEevq0/v-deo.html
So I guess that video is the answer why we are fighting so hard to keep 50+1. So as a german we are simularly divided with progressive fews, but the Hamburg chant toward Bremen Fans is still class and everyone is doing it. "Alle Bremer stinken, alle Bremer stinken, weil sie aus der Weser trinken" (just a quote) So basicly: All Bremer are sinking (2x), because they drink from the Weser (a river that gave it's name to the Bremer stadium).
I had thought German football fans were a bit behind the times, however in recent years I can see they were right all along. What good are a few extra dollars if you rip the soul out of the club and competition getting them?
@somethinglikethat2176 That is the eye cancer of english football. I'm genuently curious how someone can overlook the german fan culture after Frankfurt conquered the Camp Nou and turnd it white. La bestia blanca was born. Or as we stopped the corruption of our football League. Do yourself a favore and watch the you tube channel "Fans aus aller Welt" you will learn something what english football lacks cince the 80s.
I would rather watch my beloved SGE in the second German league,than to have a rich billionaire destroying our atmosphere,history and heritage.I hope Germany will never allow the Bundesliga to became the rich peoples playground like England did.
@@TiborgSGE Ich hab nie was anderes gesagt. Nur ich weiß nicht, welche fanbase war die einzige die nicht mitprotestiert hat? Und welche hat nach dem die Entscheidung gegen Sponsoren gefallen ist Tennisbälle geworfen, nur um anders zu sein? Ich würde den VfB auch lieber in der zweiten Liga sehen, als in den Händen irgendwelcher Superreichen.
At Oxford United we’ve always had a great atmosphere over the past decade I’ve gone to games. The premier league teams who’ve come to our ground in cup games in the past few years, I was totally surprised on how quiet they were. Arsenal, City, West Ham. Best fans all been from way up North in Newcastle & just recently in the championship Burnley.
I've had a West Ham season ticket (cheapest in the league) since they moved to the Olympic Stadium. Despite the size and capacity of the venue it is never consistently loud. It picks up when they play well (rarely) or if the ref / opposition do something shady (often). Sadly West Ham never play consistently well through an entire match. So it makes sense. The loudest it has been since I've been there was last year's Europa match Vs Bayer Leverkusen. Most atmospheric football match I have ever been to was Barcelona Vs Seville at Camp Nou when Messi and Suarez were destroying them. Will always remember it.
Well said Alfie 👍 I’m one of the older fans you talk about but I still shout and cheer on my team (The Baggies) as I have done since the seventies when tickets were less than £1. I went home and away through the bad days of hooligans that nearly killed the game and the atmosphere at Anfield, Highbury, Old Trafford etc was so much better and louder then. Money is destroying the game with young fans now having to choose between spending a fortune to go or staying home and watching games on tv. Football is no longer a working class game unless you go to non league games.
Good stuff - an interesting video on a topic I had no interest in half an hour ago! And, as ever, well done for bringing in social commentary - adds another dimension.
It's still capable of going up to 11, so I don't think day trippers (a different thing to tourists) are the problem. They'll join in when the critical mass is reached. It's not reached as often as it used to be though. Even the post kick-off rendition of Scouser Tommy seems to have withered on the vine...
Interesting points and I'll provide some perspective from a Spurs supporter living in USA who is currently in his mid-40s... About 10 years ago I went to see Spurs play a league game at the old White Hart Lane. I got the entire experience, including but not limited to the long walk to and from the grounds, the pre-game street food meal, the lively crowd w/plenty of chants, all of it. Spurs lost that game and I still thoroughly enjoyed myself that day, for I believe about the equivalent of a $40 US ticket via resale. That day is the main reason why I support this club and that happened when I was 34 years old. I very much look forward to the day when I can return to watch another match at Tottenham Hotspot Stadium. The prices you are quoting for non-hospitality single game seats are quite reasonable, at least from my side. Yes, the clubs can definitely price gouge even further if they wanted to and that unfortunately is the reality we face stateside for most top level live events. This includes all major sports leagues along with music, theater and whatever else. The live experience is quite costly both in a single instance capacity along with season tickets, way more than what appears to be the price scale in England for top flight football. The fact that ticket distribution companies also take their cut hurts everyone even further. Sounds like what you are going through at the moment in Europe overall but definitely in England is similar to what we have seen in the free agency era with baseball. It's been more expensive every year to go to a baseball game since free agency hit in the late 70s, with the trade-off being that almost all players are actually paid what they are worth now as opposed to really only the team owners and a very small percentage of the very best players benefitting exclusively. Of course, that narrative is spun that it's only the players who are greedy with their large contracts and is why game tickets are absurdly expensive. Narratives can be fun of course but the whole truth is always more interesting and tends to be complex. I hope you are able to find some joy in the game as you grow older. There is still plenty to love in sports as a whole, even while aging into a generally "quieter" existence over the years. As for me, I suppose given that I've crossed 40 years that I may not be considered a "young" fan any longer but I definitely won't be quiet if I ever get the opportunity to see a game live in Dortmund and even less so if the have a chance to watch Spurs play again in North London. Rest assured I will live that experience to the fullest because to me that's exactly what live sports should be about regardless of age or tax bracket.
@@F1KrazyThat's exactly what popped into my mind when I read that. Didn't he score an own goal, give away a penalty and get sent off after like 23 minutes? 😂
@@roryslaine7896 Something like that! I'm sure there have been bad debuts that were more consequential in the long term, but you'd be hard pressed to find one that was worse than that in the short term!
Keep in mind the underperformance of many German clubs in large stadiums has brought the Bundesliga average down. When Heidenheim in their 15k stadium is in the top flight instead of Schalke in their 62k stadium it causes a natural drop
Was going to say the same thing. 5 of the top 10 biggest stadiums aren't in the Bundesliga. In addition the Bundesliga has Keil and Union as well which have smaller stadiums
@@GodfatherBoxSet Next season will be fun with Union playing at the Olympiastadion.
@MrMakabar are they playing games there becuase of stadium renovations. They will easily get 90k+ per match if they are good
@@GodfatherBoxSet yes, they nearly rebuilt the stadium to nearly double the capacity to 37700, with most of them being standing. Probably the best new stadium being planned right now.
ALFIES A BRAINWASHED SOCIALIST PRIK
What ive noticed working at a non league club is more and more youbg people (15-25) have been attending games lower down in non league.
I feel the growing age of efl and epl attendances is affecting this as kids cant afford to go to those league sides so they spend 5-10 quid for a ticket at a non league club and its improving the atmosphere loads at lower levels
EFL prices are still relatively normal - unless you support Birmingham or Wrexham and get charged over £30 for an away ticket to Leyton fucking Orient
Agree mate
@MrRafting tbf in the national league it can still be extortionate, Aldershot town whos one of my locals charge 20 quid for an adult ticket which imo is stupud amounts for the level
I agree with you and in the 80s and early 90s most working class people couldn't afford luxuries like match day tickets due to still being in recovery from the thatcher destruction .
Best time I’ve had at football have been at Solihull Moors where the ticket cost £10 and the game finished 7-2 to Moors. Corby Town’s away support were on a stag do and it was great. Fuck the EPL.
Here's a horrendous example at Forest
So a 17 year old sat in the main stand would have paid £95 for their season ticket in our first season in the premier league. This same person in 23-24 would've paid £195 for the same seat as an 18 year old already an increase of over 100% (and no, their age category did not change). The same person would have then paid £850 for the same seat as a 19 year old as the club deleted the age category and charged anybody over 17 adult prices. What 19 year old has fucking 850 quid to fork out on a ticket that cost them less than 300 quid over the last two seasons.
Excellent point. I am "Over 63" and my 23-game Millwall Season Ticket to play the likes of Leeds, Burnley, Sheff Utd, Boro, Sunderland, etc cost £11 ELEVEN POUNDS in THe Upper Home Tier a fame.
Looking at Bundesliga attendances you have to consider that big Clubs with huge Stadiums Like Schalke and Hamburg are now in the 2nd Division and small Clubs with small Stadiums are now in the Bundesliga
German second tier attendance is nuts. There's probably nothing like it in the world.
Championship is high as well for a 2nd division, but 2. Bundesliga is a different level@@somethinglikethat2176
i think there was even a matchday where the 2nd devision screenings had more live views than the 1st. and these great clubs see as good as none of the tv money
This is one of the only reasons big overseas investors are appreciated. Someone coming in, putting money into a struggling club from 2nd or 3rd div. The massive rise they get, old fans come back, public popularity rises, tickets sales incase etc etc.
these “sleeping giants” already have a big name, and a big stadium.
If someone like Stevenage gets promoted, they stuck with a 8k stadium. Where as if schalke got promoted, they already got a 60k stadium!
The fans and the results can appreciate it immediately, and not be stuck working for 5 years for a new stadium, and then get relegated etc
As an Eintracht fan who saw the team yo-yo a few times, I can say going to a 2te Bundesliga game has more charm than the Bundesliga, where it is much more businesslike.
People are too focused taking a gazillion pics than actually enjoying the match. Especially the top 6 sides
Big six or sky six please. The top six is a league position earned on the pitch but the big/sky six refers more clearly to the media and arguably refereeing favouritism
@@Kanbei11bro literally nobody is using that term, I think everyone knows what you mean when you say “big 6” anyway. Obviously it’s not all about on-pitch success, it’s about revenue and popularity as well.
This unfortunately happens to any event nowadays people are more focused to record or take pictures than actually experience it .
Premier League fans = tourists
@@Kanbei11 you're not a trend setter.
Working class fans have been priced out in favour of tourists who can pay for the "premium" experience and have no real attachment to the clubs.
I go to Scottish lowland league games with an average attendance of 1-200 and theres a better atmosphere there for £10
Don't say that, the channel will call u racist 😂
All those Irish, Norwegian and Indian bin dipper "fans"
@JPayne95 He talked about tourists attending games in the vid you bellend
@@JPayne95 what?
you pay 10 GBP for _that?_
Arne Slot described the most surprising thing he's found in English football is that you can take family and children to away games without second thought, whereas in the Netherlands you'd be wary of letting them attend. I think that's a good thing. The bad thing is the pricing and gentrification.
Well, in the Bundesliga it's completely normal for away fans sitting in the home area as long as it's not in the standing section where the Ultras are. In England on the other hand when German fans sat in the home section because there are so few allocated tickets on European away games they got beaten up by a viscious mob. That happened several times now...
@@yaneyd93 It's strange because no matter what, when English fans go to European games, they're attack by vicious mobs in Police uniform. Look at the 2021 Champions League final when the Paris Police deliberately tried to cause another Hillsborough/Heysel event.
The gentrification is what allows it to be safe for kids.
@@upon-fe2720 I agree with you. You can't really have one without the other.
True. Football ultras are cool but dutch ultras take it way too far. Just search AZ Alkmaar fans vs West Ham.
The catchup to Bundesliga its also because Koln Hamburg and Schalke are in the 2nd division .
You can add Hertha and Dusseldorf and even Hannover
@@soundscape26 kaiserslautern too
I have been to premier league matches, as well as have season tickets to Vfb Stuttgart. I was shocked at how much more reserved/mellow the premier league is compared to Bundesliga. Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga, even Ekstraklasa are all more lively and entertaining.
By a metric ton more entertaining
You seldom see woke shite in La Liga or Serie A stadiums
@@juanjoseph- That's because they are massive problems with racism in both those leagues. Small, vocal minority of idiots, so I don't think it's everyone, but you can see it all the way from here (US).
Ok, as a life long fan of the sport, I am admittedly just getting interested in Bundesliga. I love LaLiga and Prem, and am also getting into Italian matches...but why do German Clubs have extra initials that aren't part of the name of the club or city? Seriously interested in that. My kids and I were trying to understand what that all means. Example: BVB Dortman, RB Leipzig, or VfB Stuttgart?
@@lostsoldier212
The initials are the short form of the officially registered name. F.e. VfB Stuttgart in full form stands for Verein(Club) für (for) Bewegungsspiele (movement sports) Stuttgart 1893 e.V.(registered club).
Bay fow bay = bvb = ball game club
Rb = Rasenballsport = lawn ball games (Red Bull sponsored, changed to get around calling them Red Bull Leipzig)
Vfb = Verein für Bewegungsspiele = Association for active games
Same as a club being "united" or "athletic club", just German
The funny thing about the "you're going home in an f-ing ambulance" chant has always been that ambulances don't actually take you home, they take you to a hospital.
They take you home after that if you need it.
@@VelvetMetrolink They're hospital/patient transport not an ambulance.
@apropercuppa8612 I have been taken home in an ambulance. If you disagree that I have, or disagree that it was an ambulance, that will not change the fact.
That sounds like the most expensive Über ever (speaking as an American). We have people who rather ride scooters while bleeding out than take an ambulance because of the insane costs...what is that like in the UK? Is it cheaper for your medical insurance?
@@lostsoldier212 Ambulances are free in UK. And they would have been free in USA if you had voted Kamala. Doh!
Normal working class people can hardly afford tickets for the big clubs anymore, and they're the ones who really bring/brought the atmosphere. Imo.
They can afford it more than the 80s and early 90s while we were still recovering from thatcher . Nowadays even people on benefits have enough extra cash for a season ticket
@christophergallagher3845 that is bollox mate, £70 a week for tickets is impossible for anyone on benefits.
@@christophergallagher3845honestly that is the biggest lie iv seen since we were told covid wasn't from China
@JPayne95 what lie ? In the late 80s and 90s working class people had little expendable income and getting things on credit and finance was a lot harder than nowadays . Back then most households I knew had 1 TV for example and if you knew someone with sky or cable it was amazing . Nowadays people on benefits can get finance for a new car or fairly new car pretty easily and everyone has multiple tvs and multiple tv subscriptions and broadband . Everyone has a phone nowadays we even give them free to immigrants we take in legally back then maybe 2 or 3 people in the street had a home phone everyone would ask to use in emergencies etc . There's lots of examples I could give but I'll leave it at that for now
@@christophergallagher3845People on Universal Credit can afford a season ticket at the Emirates?! What are you on?!
Watching the England national team playing at Wembley..it's such a painful experience
Feels like they'd get a better audience if they took their games across the country again
Blame that fucking band!
Yeah, its truly horrible, and that awful band playing dirge after dirge. It's all soulless nonsense.
@@thehappysmiler6752 without the band the atmosphere would be so much worse
Bit dramatic don't you think?
Because it's been sanitised beyond belief. Different tiers of hospitality, chasing the tourism club shopping money and alienating their traditional supporters with the cost of going to watch.
People are too busy bickering about which side has the worse fans or X stadium is a library, that they don't see the woods for the trees. The premier league sold all integrity and enthusiasm for the game for huge riches. For me at least, supporting a PL club (especially the top six) is akin to supporting a corporation that will gouge you for every penny you have while you cheer them on doing so.
@@humphrey10-88 If that's not football's equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome, I don't know what is.
I think the problem is the premier league not individual clubs. The reason is that sporting success is always a zero sum game. In English football that has meant that almost all success has gone to the richest clubs who can buy the best players.
So, it's not that the owners have got filthy rich by owning a football club but more of the opposite, filthy rich people have bought successful football clubs.
And the key here is that since the league allows the rich clubs to buy the best players and always win the league, then they all try to do that. The good side of that is that the best players in the world play in the PL. The bad side is that since the clubs have to finance that somehow they have to price gauge their infinite resource, their fans.
In Germany, where the clubs are owned by their fans they don't have that many good players in the clubs (which is why one club has basically dominated the league for a very long time).
If you look at the current CL table, English clubs are 1, 8, 10, 12. German clubs are 7, 13, 17, 32.
But you cant change who you support
@dondamon4669 It's like saying you can't love anyone other than your first crush. It's a flawed suggestion.
Well, if watching the PL is too "compromised" today, then go see your local lads in your after work league.
It's ridiculous to hear Brit after Brit just whining about "the good ole days" instead of understanding that the PL is a GLOBAL EVENT now and that always comes at a cost
- You want to see the best players and managers in World football every week (hint: brits never were), that costs money.
- Want to be able to bet on every game in every division, easily? that costs money.
- Want to have more merchandising about your club? that costs money
- Want to go to a more comfortable stadium without floods or rats running around (like Old Trafford)? That costs money as well
- Want to see your team win? that needs money!
If you don't value any of that and just want 'excitement"; a few Sunday football leagues can give you that for a couple of quid. Otherwise, understand where the PL is now and make up your mind: run with it and embrace the model, or just stop supporting and tell all your lads to do as well; maybe things will change
The City Ground has a capacity just shy of 30,000. There are 23,000 season card holders, and the away allocation is usually around 2,500, which leaves very few tickets for "tourists" and leads to a better atmosphere. Not that there are many tickets available for tourists as club members get first dibs and there are only about 1,000 available for general sale (which is done via a raffle).
Basically you have to be a Forest fan to get a Forest ticket.
The way it should be. Man City have already said The Etihad expansion will have NO extra season tickets. Specifically targeting tourists
That is how it should be!
@@matthewcoombs3282Every PL and Championship uses that system, most PL and some Championship clubs even sell out before general sale
That's great if you're a season ticket holder. If you're not but a long time fan and would like to see at least a single game in a season, it's shit. Your choices are either to join those raffles and most likely not get a ticket or buy the exorbitantly priced tourist ticket.
And if the answer is "just buy a season ticket", then sure , but that route is also closed. There's a massive waiting list that doesn't move because anyone who has a season ticket knows that it's more than its weight in gold and never gives it up.
@@srelma Yeah it's the same with Brighton. 30,000 seat stadium, but most are season ticket holders. The few tickets that are available to the public are extortionately priced and often in the arse end of the stadium up in the rafters. I'm a long time fan, but I rarely ever get to go to game anymore.
It's fine if you're happy going along to a mid-week League Cup game on a rainy Tuesday night, in a half-empty stadium watching basically a 2nd-string reserve team taking on lower league opposition, but it'll still cost you like 30 quid, and you have to book it weeks in advance.
But if you want to watch a Premier League game against anyone half decent, or (God forbid) a top 6 team, good luck with that. Have you earned enough 'Loyalty Points' by attending 70% of home games over the last 3 seasons? No? Oh, well sorry....no tickets for you. What, so I basically have to have been a season ticket holder WITHOUT being a season ticket holder to have a chance of seeing my team play Man United??
It's bollocks, basically.
It's astonishing that my local club - South Shields - sells terraced tickets for £16 now.
They're in the 6th tier of English football. And the atmosphere is bloody great! Plenty of young supporters there as well.
Go support your grassroots local teams instead of watching the big teams!
Best way to do it i support chesterfield and the price for a home ticket is £20 but we sell out home most weeks and the atmosphere is fantastic no matter whose playing.
League of Ireland is fairly affordable and if rugby us your thing (which it is for me, my dad, two of his brothers and their dad) Munster terrace tickets are €20-€25
From a Swindon fan to a South Shields fan...
..."BROADBENT!!!" ✊🏻
From a Radcliffe fan, I agree, get to your local, at my local club, it’s free if your under 16, the atmosphere brilliant, end to end football. Wish your lot the best for the rest of the season.
Forest are currently the exception probably, but they are still quite new - Wolves were exactly the same for 3-4 seasons, superb boisterous atmosphere, but when clubs of our size have had their brief excursion to top flight football and the adrenalin gradually nosedives because of the unlevel playing field, things gradually die off.
My 20-year old son now goes to Hednesford for a tenner whereas Wolves charge me £750 for a season ticket. My last season.
Hate the premier league, hate the top tourist clubs, hate VAR, hate Sky, everything is gradually dying. Top clubs fans are bored with success and domination, lower clubs have no chance of anything.
We switched to our local community club in non league, Basford United, it's great
I have WONDERFUL news especially, if, like me, you are "Over 63 as my 23-game Millwall Season Ticket to play the likes of Leeds, Burnley, Sheff Utd, Boro, Sunderland, etc costs £11 ELEVEN POUNDS in The Upper Home Tier a game.
See you next season
@@Isleofskye I’m 62 (:-
@@OldWolflad Thanks for your reply M8.
I knew you were a youngster.I am in my 8th decade anf my firrst Millwall game v Hull City on the 3rd September,1962 when we won 5/1.It's been downhill ever since.
@@Isleofskye Actually, if / when we go back down to the Championship, it will perhaps be better and certainly cheaper
Not rocket science Alfie, it’s the cost. It costs £55 to watch Everton at home, my son and daughter can’t afford to go. Also the strict limit on away fans kills the atmosphere
That thought wouldnt cross the mind of lil commie alfie born with a silver spoon
Limit on away fans? You should go to a Serie A stadium unless It's Inter, Juve or Milan fans then away supporters are barely existent because of the extremely strict rules
The P.C brigade have been a disaster!
£55🫣 to much respect from Denmark
THAT'S IT? 55 POUNDS????
Yeah, make sure you never go to a sporting event in North America.........
It's just not at all true that the war on football fans "intensified" after Hillsborough as claimed in the video. The peak for government interest in regulating fans was in the mid-80s; Hillsborough was a big part of the end of that approach. It led to a recognition that fans should be treated better, fences should come down and stadiums should be improved. The Taylor Report brought in all-seated stadiums. There's an extent to which Hillsborough actually started the gentrification of football in England, because seats, new stands and stadiums and better facilities all came with substantially increased ticket prices.
Younger fans who will create more atmosphere are priced out and have been replaced by the middle class and tourists.
Prophetic words from Roy Keane concerning prawn sandwiches, then? Was a life ambition being from Downunder to experience a PL match at Old Trafford. But Alfie, you've turned me off the idea, no regrets. Better atmosphere at an Ashes test.
Excellent video Alfie, as always. Best narrator ever, and excellent point on the issue. Me as an Argentinian, a lot of times asked my self the question of "why english atmospheres are so boring and cold chested?" (pecho frío in spanish, wich is an "insult" referring to the lack of passion), you gave me the most complete answer.
Like he said Argentina has a better atmosphere because of hooligans
@@dondamon4669 and that's not a compliment. Regular argentinians deeply hate hooliganism because the clubs themselves haven't done enough to control them. Any local game (stadiums are in the middle of residential areas) can result in half the neighborhood destroyed and bystanders hurt or dead, for stupid reasons
@@gadget00 that's how it was in England. Argentinan football seems very similar to English football during the 70s and 80s. As Alfie explained this is why there's no fan culture anymore as the government killed it.
@@indiekiddrugpatrol3117 given what Ive read about it in Argentina, maybe its a GOOD thing the government finished that "fan culture"
It’s because it used to be 98% men now it’s only 67%, I’ve sang songs and had the 3 women infront of me turn around and give me evils, it stops men from standing up and starting songs off…
1/3 of spectators in German stadiums are women.
im from mexico and watch MLS and Liga MX matches. the fan atmosphere is very loud and active in supporter sections. when ever i watch english football above league 1, the atmosphere is somewhat reserved
MLS ? Really ???😂
@@marhaenthemchannelreupload1344Yes.
@@marhaenthemchannelreupload1344 yes, really. THAT'S how far English football has fallen
@@jamesdeanspacemarine1663Premier league football, not English football - atmospheres are so much better outside the premiership
@@marhaenthemchannelreupload1344 They're exaggerating
West Ham is an example of how to ruin a football club. From one of the most intense, raucous and intimidating stadiums full of history, club culture and community… they are nothing but a business tourist attraction now, and the atmosphere is a great example. Its extremely sad there owners have sold there soul for their own pockets.
As an American, the atmosphere during Premier League games is so bad that NBC (the broadcaster who has the rights to the Premier League in the US) has had to pipe in crowd noise in recent years in an attempt to amplify the atmosphere. Speaking of atmosphere, one thing that MLS & the Premier League have in common is that the atmosphere at games in both leagues is bad (though MLS trails way behind the Premier League when it comes to average attendance). There are exceptions to this in MLS with teams like Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, Columbus, Austin & LAFC all having raucous crowds at home games. A major reason why the atmosphere at MLS games is bad in most cases is because football/soccer is still viewed as a family friendly sport & as a result the vast majority of fans attending games are families with children. Contrast this with the NFL & especially college football where the atmospheres are always loud. This is not to say that there aren't great atmospheres in the US when it comes to football/soccer as like in England, they are found in the lower leagues specifically the USL Championship. For example, this past summer I attended an Oakland Roots match & the atmosphere was excellent as the crowd was totally engaged for the whole 90 minutes.
Ice hockey was an interesting atmosphere. Went to a Pittsburgh Penguins match a few years back when staying overnight (am UK based).
The crowd were definitely into it, but it seemed to mainly consist of the announcer telling people to cheer and then they cheered. Wasn't sure what to make of it all
Tbf, I can imagine the atmospheres maybe being better at Canadian hockey games, and the NFL / college football games being slightly more authentic stateside. Goes with the territory etc
Things they need to encourage and allow:
- banners and flags
- safe standing in home and away ends
- cheap tickets for the safe standing areas
- beer in the ground
- kids pens
- club involvement and backing of vociferous home supporters' groups including assistance to finance tifos etc.
Compared to Germany, England is very fan-unfriendly. You are not allowed to drink beer on the stands which is crazy to hear for Germans.
When I heard that the first time I could not believe it. Beer is part of the football culture like Bratwurst in Germany.
I would hate Tifos and flags. Looks nice on the telly but Id hate to be behind some tit waving a flag about.
@@hektorfrisch4547it also was in England until hooliganism in the 80s. I believe Scotland banned it after the 1980 Hampden Riot whilst England banned it after Hillsborough Disaster in 1989. No one was in a position to complain at the time as the preceeding events were so horrific.
You bring up a good point. I remember not too long ago when St. James' Park and Selhurst Park were madhouses while Anfield, Old Trafford and Goodison Park could get pretty loud. Now, they're generally pretty silent, save for the ultras group at Selhurst.
Please do a vid on the 7 biggest teams that flopped. Teams that were expected to dominate and yet completely and utterly failed. I think of the galacticos and psg when I imagine this.
I’m certainly not one to defend either of those sides, but Real Madrid did win a champions league and 2 la Liga titles during that the first galaticos era, and in the second galaticos era they literally dominated Europe more than any other team in football.
PSG is a weird one because you’d be hard pressed to argue they haven’t dominated domestically but it’s that champions league trophy that they desperately want that’s evaded them. They’ve only really come close once. There is another video on the channel that goes into much more detail on PSG.
He pretty much did recently, about the worst pound-for-pound teams of all time
Arsenal have 90,000 person waiting list for season tickets - if they could actually add even half that amount of seats to their current stadium they would have 100,000+ every game … would they lower ticket prices though? Would they f**k
Louder moaning and booing teenagers
Makes you wonder why Arsenal ain't looking to move to a bigger stadium? Probably because their owners are basically morons.
Just an honest and clear review of the current situation in the world of football attendance n stadiums. I’m 66yr old pensioner and season ticket holder at Villa in the Holte End, and yes absolutely suffered the violence in the 70s, trust me not nice at all. But hate this new theme of bleeding the real fans dry of every penny 😡🙁
I have a ST in the Holte too, and it’s gone much quieter this season (Bayern aside). The cost, and the bleeding of fans is a big part of that.
Absolutely
In a nutshell. The atmosphere was better in the 90's/2000's when the average age of the crowd was much lower. Massive ticket price rises now means youngsters cannot afford tickets and that's why games are now full of middle aged supporters who just want a comfy seat and a pie.
Great idea for a video. I was at Old Trafford a few years ago and was told by a fan "if you want to cheer go to the pub"😂
Edit: I've just remembered I wasn't a league game it was a cup game against... HULL!
I think Fellaini scored the winner and Mourinho slated the fans for being so quiet after the game.
"fan"
Pretty sure that Karen wasnt a fan 😅
The cost makes a massive difference and has been brewing for 20+ years
When my club Pompey got promoted from Div 1 my student/YP season ticket was £110. After promotion the student/YP rates were scraped and my ticket went up to over 600 so I didn’t renew. I missed most of our premier league years as I couldn’t afford to go. I started going on the regular again after we were relegated to league 2
As explained in the video, the tickets to fans are still underpriced compared to other forms of entertainment, where the price is set as high as possible while still filling the venue. The premier league tickets, especially for the big clubs are underpriced, as the clubs want them to go to their loyal fans more than to general market. If they stopped rewarding club loyalty, they would be able to sell the tickets at higher price.
The result is that those without a season ticket find it almost impossible to get a ticket. And season tickets never come to be sold in the open market.
@@srelma that doesn't change the commenters own experience, what's your point?
@@craigchristian344 the point is that it's almost impossible to get to a PL game because the tickets are underpriced and snatched by the people with a season ticket who'll never give them up.
As said, it's great if you're a season ticket holder.as you get your ticket well below the market price. It sucks if you're not.
@@srelmahow are they underpriced?
@@indiekiddrugpatrol3117 simple supply and demand. At the current prices all games are sold out, which means that the price is too low. People would be willing to pay more to get a ticket.
Imagine any other product that were sold out all the time. The producer would definitely increase the price until there would be some games when the tickets are not sold out.
The current system treats the season ticket holders and those with loyalty as entitled. They get to go to games at lower price than what the market is willing to pay. And they never lose their entitled status as long as they renew their season ticket/go to enough games to qualify as loyal fans. Other fans as just screwed as they have two options. Hope to get a ticket in a lottery (fat chance) or pay for the ridiculously expensive (hundreds of pounds per ticket) hospitality package.
And the cruel thing is that no matter how long they stay as members, they'll never get to collect enough loyalty as they never get enough tickets to bump up to the next tier.
I don't think stadium design is as big a factor as people think, River's stadium has a huge track as does just about every Italian stadium
Great video, so much to think about. I'd echo the whole age profile thing. When I first went to watch Liverpool regularly at the turn of the century - yes, I am old - I joined in every chant and jumped around like a mad thing at every opportunity. Nowadays I like to pick my moments, and they're gradually getting further apart. And here's the kicker: I'm a season ticket holder. I applied in 2001 and finally got one on the summer of...wait for it....2023! The waiting list closed years ago so everyone currently on it must be at least in their mid-20's, and even then only if someone put them on it when they were born. More likely there is no one under the age of 30 on the list, and there's no way I'm dropping off it. I'd literally never get one again. So I'm the equivalent of a bed blocker, preventing the next generation of supporter coming through who would join in every chant and jump around like a mad thing at every opportunity. I don't know what the solution is. The first step to one is, as always, to admit there's a problem.
As someone who is 25 and has tried to go to games as much as I could for Arsenal for the last few years.
It's a fortune to travel, it costs me an entire day's pay to go see one game not including tax. If I did that every week I'd be unable to eat it's impossible to pay for football and life. Every aspect of the prem is designed to suck my bank account dry, my dad told me story's of him chasing Arsenal to every game in a car and honestly how? I've never even seen an away ticket let alone dream of seeing more than 1 away game in a season.
It's not just age profile but stagnant money and the sheer cost of top-flight football. Including 3 extremely overpriced subscriptions to watch Arsenal legally, so the issue of money is everything and like most young people I'd rather save what little money to repair my car when it bracks due to government negligence on road maintenance.
@kino6395 I'm certain it's not 'just age profile', it's one of a bunch of things and pricing out young people who have seen prices of tickets rise year-on-year while wages remained stagnant is absolutely one of those things. When I lived back home in Ireland a few years back I remember talking to an Arsenal fan who was not broke but was questioning the wisdom of dropping the guts of a thousand euro on flights which spike on football weekends and accommodation/food in an expensive city at the best of times, all the whole trying to liaise with friends - it's meant to be a social experience, right? And you can't even be sure of getting a good game of football! I'm lucky that my wife is from Liverpool so I was able to stay with her family, and we both live here now, but I dread to think what the cost would have been over the years of even a relatively good value city like Liverpool if I didn't have that backstop.
I can't believe you think you're old!
A ticket to watch my local Ligue 1 side costs around 50-75~€ and you get a good spot. I paid 100€ for a good Champions League seat.
I remember my brother having to pay 200£ to watch West Ham - Southampton to fulfill his dream of watching a Hammers match live and being floored by that price
What ligue 1 team?
@anonymousa591 Stade Brestois
That's still a pretty high price when compared to other leagues, I pay around 25€ for a seated ticket in Mönchengladbach and 16€ for a standing ticket.
@fischlimonade That is true. I still feel at times it's too high. But the Premier League reminds me of how much worse it could get
Our prices for single games are ridiculous, tho €200 is higher than I even knew we charged. We have the cheapest season tickets in the league, mine cost me £630 or around that n in like the 5th row behind the goal, but single match tickets start at like £60 which is ludicrous to me
Also, I’m so sorry your brothers dream was to watch us play, if it’s the Southampton match I’m thinking of on Boxing Day a few years back, we lost it as well… atleast he got the full West Ham experience ⚒️
As an Aussie who has watched English football all his life, before the global EPL hype, unfortunately the easiest and only way for us to get a ticket is getting a corporate hospitality one. Even trying to go to a championship game, you need to create an online account, jump through hoops, hop, do an interpretive dance all to get a ticket. If I can’t get a hospitality ticket when I’m in the UK, I’d rather just go non league or get a Eurostar and watch a random game in Belgium, the Netherlands or Germany.
Nearly spat my lunch out at work when Alfie went off about the man United vip experience 😂😂
"Avoiding the crowds" like dude you're at a football match where you know crowds gather
Hilarious! Alfie’s legendary.
So it's basically:
- Older People
- More expensive tickets
- Women
- The fans being resigned to not having much power with regards to the team (unlike the german fans)
- Fans seeing themselves as a mere audience instead of active participants.
You missed VAR and corporate zones taking up the space and alcohol bans
It depends when it comes to Women...
I'm one of them and one of the biggest football fans you'll find. Know by heart 10 of my club's chants. If terraces still existed i wouldn't have a problem.
If you're talking about families that come with their children... I can see it, even worse when they have a dedicated stand for them.
Leave women out of it
@@catmeowing4329womens voices are low pitched tho
Yes. So you watched the same video we watched? Well done 👏
Cost is the main issue - working class and young people (the people who sing and make noise) people can't afford to go - top flight English footy is now a gentrified, middle class past time hence the quiet crowds - it's akin to going to the theater.
Football conversations are often boring when youre from a town with a Non-League Club
Always about Arsenal/Chelsea/Liverpool/Man Utd/Man City/Newcastle/Spurs/West Ham
…ahem…Aston Villa, Everton…
@TheWhiteSpaceUK I live in Hampshire so, not so much more Fulham & Millwall fans...although more than Portsmouth.
@@HarryWessex Fair enough, that makes sense. I know when it comes to Villa they have a big fanbase in South West England…
@@WS_UK Outside Plymouth I guess
Best German players in the premier league of all time. (Day 694)
Alternativly you could do "Best German players who played outside the Bundesliga" or something like that if you prefer.
I will not give up until the video is made or Alfie himself tells me to stop. Everyone else telling me that will be ignored.
If you don't believe my number, just go back to the previous videos. I'm at the bottom most of the time, but I'm there.
Who do you see in the list? Most top German players I can think of either never played in the Prem or went on to do bigger and better things elsewhere.
@@scotttaber7008Der Hammer, Not that I'm biased lol
1. Ballack
2. Özil
3. Gündogan
4. Havertz
5. Poldi
6. Mertesacker
7. Sané
8. Huth
9. Groß
10. Lehmann
Just as an inspiration, Alfie.
@@philippjansen7199damn, you do Lehmann dirty. He was insane good, well and simply insane, at Arsenal. Would Put him in the top three.
I'm just up voting this because I admire your effort.
Unpopular opinion.
Domestic football was better before the Premier League. Take us back to pre 1992.
...Maybe without the collapsing stadiums.
Yer the "everything was better back the day" argument is really unpopular...
@@LiamHaHaX😅. The 1940´s were peak humanity
Depends the football standard was poorer of course but the availability for working class was much better as it was cheaper and represented the area more. Now city and united fans for example are all over the country
"Unpopular opinion: popular opinion"
My local tickets is 12£ adults. If your a veteran it's free...there are waiting list for prem season tickets! When I went in early 90s there was no internet, mobiles and tons of footy on TV. Life was about getting by, no internet meant communicating and finding out things. Life is fast today, too fast.
I think the answer is simple:
All the overseas clubs have Ultras. Clubs in England don't really have ultras. There isn't a segment of fans who just chant and bang drums all game long. It's not just that though. They are organized, they are the ones who come up with chants and they are the ones who lead protests if need be.
England needs that too. The only club that I can think of who have anything approximating ultras is Crystal Palace.
The ultras disrupt the rich folk who are there to enjoy the game in quite /s
It's highly unlikely for it to exist on a wider scale in English football simple because most supporters of English football clubs ridicule the elements like drums or whistling as being annoying, and therefore, "un-English".
@@abnormalanorak that is ultra dumb to be honest. That's why playing away at Galatasaray is far more challenging than playing away at Southampton.
Down at exeter despite only having a smaller ground compared go most the 'big bank' terrace behind the goal is consistently loud (drum included) and regularly out sing home fans when playing away. Granted I'm biased but like you I can't think of another club like it
@@theheadbangguy5985 The example you gave is very apt for me, to be honest. Us Turks tend to get more passionate about football in general.
On a side note, I don't support Galatasaray, but rather, Göztepe (who coincidentally are majority-owned by the same people who own Southampton). Then again, attendance-wise, only a number of clubs in the Süper Lig surpass the 14K threshold, those at the moment being the so-called 3 İstanbul giants, the Black Sea rivals Trabzonspor and Samsunspor, as well as the sole representant from the third-largest city in Turkey in the SL, ourselves.
I went on Newcastle United's reddit page and said that we should get a drummer to help enhance our atmosphere, to make it more intimidating and loud like the atmospheres in Europe.
The response I got was incredibly negative, I got berated, and one person said that drummers are "too loud". It's a football match! It's supposed to be loud!
Large parts of St James Park is like gods waiting room now. People who've had their season ticket for 20/30/40 years and won't give it up (why would they? The OAP season ticket rate is crazy cheap) but seems to turn up just to moan about everything.
I imagine that atmosphere problems in the Premier League have a lot of similar roots to the quite, corporate atmospheres in the American Big 4 men's sports leagues (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL). Those leagues have priced out a lot of average fans and a lot of people who are there are older, quieter, wealthier and mainly there to be seen, not to root for the team. MLS atmospheres still aren't nearly as good as soccer/football leagues in other parts of the world, but since most teams have encouraged supporters clubs and built terraced sections the atmospheres in MLS are generally better than the other American pro sports. College sports in America, particularly Division 1 (American) football, men's basketball and men's hockey usually have much better atmospheres than their pro counterparts due to many of the factors you attributed to louder fans. Tickets are cheaper and there are more young, drunk fans and a Student Section standing all together that approximate supporters sections in football leagues across the world.
EDIT: I will note that I do think that one of the good things about American sports, even though it sacrifices atmosphere to a great degree, is that opposing fans are generally friendly with each other, are mixed throughout seats and concourses, there is very little police presence compared to other countries and you almost never feel like you need to fear for your safety to attend any game in any city (except perhaps Philadelphia Eaglse playoff games).
well the NFL crowds still look pretty wild on TV every sunday
This is why English football fans have a lot of xenophobia towards Americans. They see the way their league is going.
Nice video, HITC. But I have to correct you about your statement on 15:05 - There hasn't been lethal encounters in Bulgarian football hooliganism except one death of a fan in 2001 which was then described as incident (the man was hit with a hand-made bomb on his back while sitting at a coffee shop while two groups of fans were fighting each other) altough I have to agree occassionally there are fights in the stands at the derbies and no survailance cameras so it's not really family-friendly. But apart from that at the club stadiums I would say it's safe and family-friendly. You are right that attendance is weak apart from the big teams and stadiums are very bad, old and not maintained at all (except two or three new stadiums which are currently under construction and main sectors at some of the old stadiums).
1:30 the thing with the Bundesliga attendances is that big clubs with large stadiums and supporter bases (i.e. Hamburg, Kaiserslautern, Berlin, Schalke) were replaced by corporate clubs with few fans (i.e. Leverkusen. Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim) and small clubs from the rich south with lots of sponsorship money but small stadiums (i.e. Freiburg, Augsburg, Heidenheim, Mainz (also Kiel this season, but their from the north)). i think in total attendances in germany have developed like in England, much of it has simply happened in the 2. Bundesliga.
Not really. Leverkusen have been Bundesliga side for decades and Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim still have average sized stadiums(about 30k). Its because clubs like Union, Heidenheim, Kiel are now in Bundesliga with stadiums that have under 20k capacity. Prem has just Bournemouth with stadium that had under 10k capacity. However your point about big clubs you mentioned alingside Köln, Hannover and Nuremberg are in Bundesliga 2
Just a quick note. Those young folk from the 70s are now the old folk of today. And they were the 40 year olds of the early 2000s.
Besides the youth being priced out today, one must note that these old people have been religiously attending matches for decades, and make financial sacrifices in other parts of their lives to do so
But they've aged and became more financially stable as ticket prices have increased. Since the 90s it's been impossible for working class kids to pay a few quid at the turnstile like they used to.
It is the same with English international games, the English just don’t know how to create a good atmosphere at sporting events. The clubs don’t have fans or supporters in their eyes, just customers. The top English league and teams have been sold to owners with no real connection to the communities that the clubs are attached to.
Home fans. England away fans are good
i left our village in 2003 to return in 2010 & i immediately noticed how when walking our Dogs around a village of over 4,000 folk (it being the semi rural / Eastern suburban tip of a metropolitan area of 470,000 10 miles west ) , how , after 18:30 , you can hear a Gnat fart.
something has made the English in general much much quieter than the days before 2003.
Even strolling around the place during long warm summer nights , i noticed one single experience of hearing folk behaving as if they were enjoying their lives by laughing loudly. The village isn’t a designated Elephants Graveyard neither because it has 2 Primary Schools .
I don’t think it’s just Football , the south of England at least is - after 18:30 , like being in a giant Library.
and it’s not Peaceful, it’s Silence.
It’s pretty similar to how in the us nfl and nba atmospheres are worse than college football and college basketball atmospheres
Nobody cares about NFL outside of the USA
Fr I been a cowboys fan and mavs fan my whole life when I go to their games the atmospheres aren't the greatest I find the mavs games more exciting than the cowboys ones atmosphere wise but I can tell which are real fans, bandwagon fans, and foreigners that just support just to fit in meanwhile at longhorns games (im a UTAustin alumni) they're much more exciting and we have our chants
It depends on the game and team. Chiefs, 49ers, Green Bay, eagles, bills, Steelers, Seahawks and more have amazing atmospheres and especially in the playoffs
@ they still don’t come close to college atmospheres
@@georgehenan853 I mean chiefs and Seahawks do. They both held the record for loudest outdoor stadium in world (chiefs still hold the record) so you tell me
Definitely the case with tourist clubs, but for example, Ipswich’s Portman Rd has a cracking atmosphere.
It's gone the way of the cinema. Double the price, halved attendances = same revenue
Did you not watch the video? The attendance has doubled in PL (and lower leagues).
@@srelma he also said it's old people and middle-aged filling out the stadium. Shooting themselves in the foot
@@BOZ_11 all I was commenting was that the attendance hasn't halved as you stated but doubled. Take that as you like.
@@srelma yeah, noted. No need to repeat yourself, I'm just adding context, which deffo takes away from the improved attendance figures.
@@BOZ_11 I'm not sure what your point is. Unlike cinemas, the PL clubs are making a lot more money from ticket sales as both the ticket prices and the attendance has increased. I don't know how the age profile of the fans relates to this in any way.
As a Premier League fan from Switzerland I often cant believe some home fans are leaving the stadium at the 70th minute when their team is 0-2 down.
Some great points about the overall demographic, economy, and societal/cultral changes in England, Europe, and overall "first world" in this video.
As a Korean that played a bit during my school years, I often thought that stadiums should be made more family safe. The tickets used to be cheap and drinks and other things were not regulated but this meant that most supporters in the stadiums were drunk working class people that weren't a decent lot. I've fought more than a few men that tried to seduce my friends or my sister's friends, who were almost always wearing their school uniforms because they were 14-18YOs, with drinks. Violent fights among fans were pretty common as well.
Interestingly enough, baseball which had a similar issue, has overtaken football in popularity by making the stadiums more family friendly. The by-product is stadiums filled with "casual" fans who are more there for the chants and cheerleading than the baseball, and thus as in this video, baseball games feel more like an entertainment than a sport, but the atmosphere is a lot better than the half empty football games that are still toxic. Korean football fandom has changed a bit, benchmarking the baseball league's approach, but the core sense of nastiness is still there with many long term football fans even cultivating an elitist hatred toward newer "casual" fans.
Last time English people were loud and created atmosphere, people died and English clubs got banned from Europe.
Joking aside this part of it. Hooliganism and disasters like Hillsborough and Bradford. Led to careful policing of fan behaviour and compulsory seating.
It was funny to see a image of NFL São Paulo Game instead of a game in United States when Alfie talked about ticket prices in american sports.
My man, I must ask you something:
How does it feel? Having nailing every aspect of the theme!
Congrats. Great video. Keep on the good work. Cheers from Brazil. We are fighting here the "arenization" (modern arenas enviroment in contrast with the "classic and popular stadiums").
I still remember the Adebayor chant we had and the one about Van Persie when he went to United. Times sure have changed
They priced out the real fans
A great man once said something about a prawn sandwich
Agree,but you allowed the prawn sandwich brigade to turn up when you allowed the billionaires to take over your national sport.
Possibly the most important video youve made this year.
Would like to see the war on footy fans one too.
A big problem for EPL is that there’s no E in the PL anymore. The clubs are not English! So aren’t the star players or coaches.
Support your local! As a York City, there’s a lot more youngsters going games now and the attendance figures are very healthy. It’s a shame the PL is so plastic now
I went regularly late 90s and early 2000s. There was definitely a shift in atmosphere developing and it's worsened since. There's some exceptions, like when a team returns to a top league after many years. But generally it's a sign of how capitalism has killed the game. There's the lack of hope of actually winning anything. There's the assumption you have to play negative football to survive. Assumption for 99% of clubs your best players and youth products will leave. There's the bleak sponsors and ownership, the clear prioritisation of money over the sport and the community. And then there's the players. The wages that have become incomprehensible, even for very poor and average players. While crowds see their living standards drop and ticket prices rise.
And the worst part of all of this isthat the capitalism, within the confines of football, will never die unless a miracle happens.
Just like in America, only rich people can attend sporting games at highest level. The passionate fans have been outpriced
Stadium design, sanitised experience, tourist fans and price of the overall package.
Give me non league football any day of the week! Up the Linnets 🌽
My favorite guy again!!!!
Always a great listen ALFIE!
Hello from Las Vegas😅
The answer, foreign fans coming for the experience and not getting involved with chants etc because they haven’t a clue
Yeah that it mate. Its odd tourist not joining in “chants” is the problem
"Avoid the crowds" / "soak up the atmosphere" you can pick ONE
Because the clubs are foreign owned, thus making them all plastic.
I was very fortunate to have been a season ticket holder at Manchester United from 2011-2017, and fair to say I experienced all sorts of atmospheres at OT in that period. Generally, the atmospheres at most PL games were flat, excluding the big fixtures, or when United were chasing the game. I anticipated European matches so much, knowing that the atmosphere would always be great. There's a video titled 'Man United vs Real Madrid best atmosphere ever' by Jon Huggans from 2013, a match I was lucky enough to attend, and it is only a snapshot of what the atmosphere was like from an hour before KO and throughout the entirety of the match. I have attended several matches since 2017, with difficulties in securing tickets ever an issue with United, and the atmospheres have not once been impressive. I am sure United's own downfall on the pitch has contributed to worsening match day atmospheres, but the wider socio-economic factors are overwhelmingly damaging.
Havent even watched the video yet but i am scared of the comments this video will get
Doesn't seem bad so far... surprisingly.
SO much work went into this!
In The Championship i.e THe SECOND Tier ., I am "Over 63" and my 23-game Millwall Season Ticket to play the likes of Leeds, Burnley, Sheff Utd, Boro, Sunderland, etc costs...
... £11 ELEVEN POUNDS in The Upper Home Tier a game.
That's class
@@olimercer835 Hello M8. With a concession,my local struggling National League South team charges £12, and nearby, Charlton,a Division lower, as you know, charges £26 though,in both cases, that is the individual matchday price not the Prorated Season Ticket price but still:).
Good Luck.
@@olimercer835 Yes,My Friend.
It's a shame that the team aren't:)
When I was in England visiting I couldn’t afford the £120 ticket so I went and watched a Millwall game for about £35.
I sometimes go to the Etihad stadium on match day to meditate. It's nice to have a place that is completely silent.
Great video, the drop in Bundesliga attendances can be based on the size of the grounds of teams being promoted. My team FC Union sell out every week but obviously have a smaller stadium capacity than that other team in Hamburg, Shalke, or the half full Olympic Stadion to name a few.
That said, seeing ourselves, Kiel and Heidenheim in the top flight is what football is all about. I'm sure there's a marketing weasel talking to the EPL bosses bemoaning AFC Bournmouth being in it rather than RB Leeds.
Anyhow, keep up the good work.
The Premier League has basically become a tourist attraction, especially the 'big 6' it isn't aimed at working class people anymore.
Also I feel a big part is down the style of play teams use now. It's no longer high risk passing or wiping balls into the box thats exciting and get people out of their seats which in turn creates atmosphere. It's very side ways and just pass, pass and pass again. Don't get me wrong it can be great but imagine being a Man City fan and watching them pass the ball around for 80 mins. BORING!
Really good video and an interesting listen, although I'm surprised you didn't touch on the lack of ultras culture in the Premier League. I know some teams have had groups attempt to pop up, with Palace and Arsenal being good examples, but the English fanbase hasn't embraced it properly yet and often actually rejects it.
"Wot the fackin 'ell is that?"
It's an atmosphere, mate.
In German there is the term "12. Mann" (12th man) to refer to supporters implying that they can make a difference like having an additional player on the pitch.
The term exists in England to.
As an American, the worst premier league atmosphere is still better than the best NFL one
Boy actually go to some games before you say some dumb shit like this
@ I’ve been to NFL games, the atmosphere is nothing like a premier league game
@StonedCabbage and what trash team did you go watch? To say "the worst premiere league is better then the NFLs best" is dumb. The loudest outdoor stadium in the world belongs to an nfl team
Aye but if the trend continues they'll be about the same soon. That's why there's so much hate for Americans in English football, its not so much the people it's just a recognition and fear of the growing Americanisation and corporatisation of football.
coz working class, loyal fans have been priced out n large nos of attendees these days r made up of casuals n tourists.
Best guess is too many plastic fans at all prem clubs, including the small ones hoping to get to watch a big club in the flesh. Good example is Forest who barely filled the stands in the championship. Once they got promoted, all the lads who have Forest as their 'Second team' turn up in their retro shirt to watch them play against Liverpool or something, and make it difficult for actual fans to get a ticket.
It comes down to the mentality of the fans tbh, In England people don't want to be chanting the whole game like in Germany. Nor do they want Ultras, which most other clubs have. Even the Saudi clubs have ultras. Crystal Palace are the only team that do it different, and there are many people who criticise them for it.
WHY? I know this is from 2 months ago, lmao, but like, WHY?
@ArgousNautus because people in england want to watch the game and have authentic reactions. The chants are authentic, the cheers and boos are authentic. The quiet spells are authentic. Overall its a real experience. Whereas in Germany for example, everything is planned. They all know what to chant and when. Which is why it is always so coordinated and non stop. Some people like that, others would rather watch a game and react with real emotion in key moments.
Increase wages, lower season ticket prices, seize corporate boxes and the means of production, dissolve MK Dons.
@@MarcLesan deduct points from Everton 😄
Having just got back from Istanbul, I’m not sure alcohol isn’t playing a part in Turkish football atmospheres 😂 but broader point still stands for sure
@@RenegadeMaster137 I mean, alcohol isn't really consumed within the stadia in Turkey, but in daily life, especially in the western parts of the country, people feel freer with drinking without any sense of guilt. It also correlates, for the most part, with one's politics here. The further west you go, the more people consuming alcohol - especially in the Aegean and Thracian parts.
@@abnormalanorak As someone who went to many games in Turkey and Germany without drinking a single drop of alcohol I can assure you that alcohol is not the driving factor in these countries having a better atmosphere than England. First and foremost due to the Ultra culture there is constant singing and support in the stadium at all times. Secondly the fans in these countries are more passionate about their teams. Hence Trabzon which, as you know, is a very conservative city, has a better atmosphere with an half empty stadium than every PL team. But the same issues described in England also exist in Turkey specifically as our government has destroyed the economy making it impossible for working class people to attend matches regularly
@a.e.a. I agree that the government here ruined the fan culture, and most clubs struggle to fill their stadia as a result.
I mean the drink has been blamed for ruining the atmosphere at Ireland internationals at Landsdowne Road. I stick to a pint a half but the amount of people going to to the bar from the seats in either half is ludicrous.
What? A Muslim would NEVER drink!😉
11:52 last Saturday here in Costa Rica there was the costarican clasico, Saprissa vs Alajuelense, and on my life that the stadium (Saprissa was hosting) was as loud as it has been in ages and only gets that loud recently in the last minutes of a final when we are about to be crowned champions... this wasn't a final. Our conclusion (my mates and I that regularly go to the stadium) was that with a concert of Argentine artist WOS that same day and a very high class Halloween Party (remember Costa Rica is small af) the demographics of the Saprissa supporters that day was of more loud and passionate fans than the average Saturday in which the people who went to WOS or a party instead of the match, attend matches.
Saprissa stadium is 21k, those halloween parties near 1k and WOS had 5k spectators, all of that in a 356k city, I didn't saw some of the faces I usually see, the main example being that instead of the fans that spend 90% of the match trying to get the perfect picture of the floodlights and sky at the background, I saw people that celebrated when we won 50/50 challenges and throw ins, when some matches you stand up for a corner and get told "suelo suelo" which means to sit down.
The result of a Saprissa stadium without the fans that opted to miss the biggest game in the country to attend a halloween party or a concert, as true diehard fans do, was a loud and hostile for Alajuelense (visiting team) match that ended an unbeaten streak that started after losing last year final 3-0 on this same stadium. Unbeaten leaders and they lost 3-0 again against sixth placed Saprissa, we played well but imo the atmosphere played its part. Before 2011 we played our national team games there and Landon Donovan said it was the most difficult ground he played at in his career.
Don't have anything against the match attending fans that want the perfect picture for the gram but they can sing as well imo.
Here are the highlights of the match if you are curious and bored enough to watch the costarican derby highlights: ua-cam.com/video/bbU0KRUWRoQ/v-deo.html
And here are the highlights of the final in which the atmosphere was even louder:
ua-cam.com/video/raA3vqEevq0/v-deo.html
So I guess that video is the answer why we are fighting so hard to keep 50+1.
So as a german we are simularly divided with progressive fews, but the Hamburg chant toward Bremen Fans is still class and everyone is doing it.
"Alle Bremer stinken, alle Bremer stinken, weil sie aus der Weser trinken" (just a quote)
So basicly: All Bremer are sinking (2x), because they drink from the Weser (a river that gave it's name to the Bremer stadium).
I had thought German football fans were a bit behind the times, however in recent years I can see they were right all along.
What good are a few extra dollars if you rip the soul out of the club and competition getting them?
@somethinglikethat2176 That is the eye cancer of english football. I'm genuently curious how someone can overlook the german fan culture after Frankfurt conquered the Camp Nou and turnd it white. La bestia blanca was born. Or as we stopped the corruption of our football League. Do yourself a favore and watch the you tube channel "Fans aus aller Welt" you will learn something what english football lacks cince the 80s.
I would rather watch my beloved SGE in the second German league,than to have a rich billionaire destroying our atmosphere,history and heritage.I hope Germany will never allow the Bundesliga to became the rich peoples playground like England did.
@@TiborgSGE Ich hab nie was anderes gesagt.
Nur ich weiß nicht, welche fanbase war die einzige die nicht mitprotestiert hat? Und welche hat nach dem die Entscheidung gegen Sponsoren gefallen ist Tennisbälle geworfen, nur um anders zu sein?
Ich würde den VfB auch lieber in der zweiten Liga sehen, als in den Händen irgendwelcher Superreichen.
At Oxford United we’ve always had a great atmosphere over the past decade I’ve gone to games. The premier league teams who’ve come to our ground in cup games in the past few years, I was totally surprised on how quiet they were. Arsenal, City, West Ham. Best fans all been from way up North in Newcastle & just recently in the championship Burnley.
I've had a West Ham season ticket (cheapest in the league) since they moved to the Olympic Stadium. Despite the size and capacity of the venue it is never consistently loud. It picks up when they play well (rarely) or if the ref / opposition do something shady (often). Sadly West Ham never play consistently well through an entire match. So it makes sense. The loudest it has been since I've been there was last year's Europa match Vs Bayer Leverkusen.
Most atmospheric football match I have ever been to was Barcelona Vs Seville at Camp Nou when Messi and Suarez were destroying them. Will always remember it.
Palace fans are often credited for being loud and creating a good atmosphere.
Well said Alfie 👍
I’m one of the older fans you talk about but I still shout and cheer on my team (The Baggies) as I have done since the seventies when tickets were less than £1.
I went home and away through the bad days of hooligans that nearly killed the game and the atmosphere at Anfield, Highbury, Old Trafford etc was so much better and louder then.
Money is destroying the game with young fans now having to choose between spending a fortune to go or staying home and watching games on tv.
Football is no longer a working class game unless you go to non league games.
Good stuff - an interesting video on a topic I had no interest in half an hour ago! And, as ever, well done for bringing in social commentary - adds another dimension.
Is this a bot account? UA-cam fix your site
Anfield was rocking last night & league game vs Brighton.. its few & far between these days admittedly
It's still capable of going up to 11, so I don't think day trippers (a different thing to tourists) are the problem. They'll join in when the critical mass is reached. It's not reached as often as it used to be though. Even the post kick-off rendition of Scouser Tommy seems to have withered on the vine...
Interesting points and I'll provide some perspective from a Spurs supporter living in USA who is currently in his mid-40s...
About 10 years ago I went to see Spurs play a league game at the old White Hart Lane. I got the entire experience, including but not limited to the long walk to and from the grounds, the pre-game street food meal, the lively crowd w/plenty of chants, all of it. Spurs lost that game and I still thoroughly enjoyed myself that day, for I believe about the equivalent of a $40 US ticket via resale. That day is the main reason why I support this club and that happened when I was 34 years old. I very much look forward to the day when I can return to watch another match at Tottenham Hotspot Stadium.
The prices you are quoting for non-hospitality single game seats are quite reasonable, at least from my side. Yes, the clubs can definitely price gouge even further if they wanted to and that unfortunately is the reality we face stateside for most top level live events. This includes all major sports leagues along with music, theater and whatever else. The live experience is quite costly both in a single instance capacity along with season tickets, way more than what appears to be the price scale in England for top flight football. The fact that ticket distribution companies also take their cut hurts everyone even further.
Sounds like what you are going through at the moment in Europe overall but definitely in England is similar to what we have seen in the free agency era with baseball. It's been more expensive every year to go to a baseball game since free agency hit in the late 70s, with the trade-off being that almost all players are actually paid what they are worth now as opposed to really only the team owners and a very small percentage of the very best players benefitting exclusively. Of course, that narrative is spun that it's only the players who are greedy with their large contracts and is why game tickets are absurdly expensive. Narratives can be fun of course but the whole truth is always more interesting and tends to be complex.
I hope you are able to find some joy in the game as you grow older. There is still plenty to love in sports as a whole, even while aging into a generally "quieter" existence over the years. As for me, I suppose given that I've crossed 40 years that I may not be considered a "young" fan any longer but I definitely won't be quiet if I ever get the opportunity to see a game live in Dortmund and even less so if the have a chance to watch Spurs play again in North London. Rest assured I will live that experience to the fullest because to me that's exactly what live sports should be about regardless of age or tax bracket.
7 worst debut games (for a player) of all time. The more consequential, the better.
Jonathan Woodgate at Real Madrid springs to mind
@@F1KrazyThat's exactly what popped into my mind when I read that. Didn't he score an own goal, give away a penalty and get sent off after like 23 minutes? 😂
@@roryslaine7896 Something like that! I'm sure there have been bad debuts that were more consequential in the long term, but you'd be hard pressed to find one that was worse than that in the short term!