Gain Staging. Analog vs Digital.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Gain Staging. Analog vs Digital
The key here is.
+4dBu = 0dBVu = -18dBFs
Do this and you will never have issues with distorsion and headroom agen.
Gear i use:
Speakers:
KRK Rokit 6
KRK S10.4
DAW:
Logic pro x
Controller:
Presonus faderport
Interface:
Presonus quantum 26x26
Behringer ada8000 x 2
Console:
yamaha pm3500
Microphones:
Neumann tlm103
Se Magneto x 2
Rode mp5 x 2
Rode Nt3 x 2
Shure sm57x 4
Shure sm58 x 3
Shure pg56 x 4
Shure pg52
Sennheiser 604 x 3
Akg D112
Adk Valve 48
Wasaphone
12 Gauge microphones Red12 x 2
T-bone sct 700
Diy sub
Hardware:
Orban 642b x 2
Dbx 163x
Klark Teknik Eqp-kt x 4
Klark Teknik kt-2a x 2
Klark Teknik 76-kt
Alesis 3630 x 3
Art pro vla 2
Toft Audio DC-2
Lindell Audio 17xs
Golden age project 73jr
Golden Age Project eq81
Alctron mp73eq
T.c electronic m-one
T.c electronic m2000
Guitars:
Bedell acustic steelstring x2
Squier Telecaster cabronita bigsby
Squier Tom Delong strat
Washburn ps7000
Guilden es335
Harley benton sc 450 p90 gt
Harley benton st-62mn vintage
Harley benton rb-612cs
Guitar amps:
Peavey classic30
Peavey valveking 100
Cuntroller 9
Mandolin:
Tanglewood
Bassguitar:
SX vintage p-bass shortscale
Drums:
Pearl export 1990
Millenium Power brass snare
Paiste and Zultan cymbals
Meinl Bongos
Why is this the first video I have ever seen explaining this?
Dont know. There's a lot of myth and misconception floating around. One day i just had enough. 🙂
This explanation is wonderful. Having come from mixing on analog consoles and now learning digital, I have been trying to understand this very thing. Fortunately My Yamaha digital console has a analog gain knob and then a digital gain knob. This Discovery has transformed my mixes. Thanks again for the Explanation.
Thank you for sharing. And your welcome! 😊🙏
Finally someone who explains it how it is, I’ve seen so many controversial videos about this. I even stopped following some channels who told utter nonsense about this 😊
I work on an analog console, all outside the box, you have to gain stage to -18 bBfs in order to not lose your headroom 👍🏼
Thank you! I got tired of all the myths thats floating around thats why I did the episode. What console do you use?
@@Kenneth-F Just an Allen & Heath GL2400, I wanted to use it for zero latency tracking monitoring but ended up using it for mixing and like it a lot.
@@Chaos-Dynamics clean and good sounding console. Shure is more fun to touch knobs instead of moving a mouse.
@@Kenneth-F One thing for sure, not only more fun but a much faster workflow. And the best part is mixing with your ears instead of your eyes.
@@Chaos-Dynamics 100% agree!
….and here I was blaming myself and the plugins all this while!
Bafflingly, so many mix and mastering engineers out there (with tonnes of subscribers) are yet to make a video as explicit as this! Wonder why?
Thanks for throwing light on the fundamental mistake most of us are making. You saved me from “countless hours of endured agony and years of time” that could’ve gone into figuring this !! 🙏
Thanks for sharing and your welcome! ❤️🙏
Interesting… I’m going to look deeper into this on my own and run some test before I start asking questions
You know where to find me. 😊
good video! Some small points of clarification though:
- dBu is a measure of voltage, and is an average signal level
- dBFS measures peak. So something that shows 0VU (+4dBu) can vary a lot in dBFS levels. It’s rarely going to always be the case that 0VU is always -18dBFS.
- While many analog modelled plugins are modelled for -18dBFS=+4dBu, it’s actually very common for manufacturers to use a variety of calibration levels. Sometimes it can be -12dBFS=4dBu, for instance, or anywhere in between. The only way to be sure is to check and not assume that it’s always -18dBFS.
- furthermore, not all converters are calibrated or set up for +4dBu=-18dBFS. These actually vary a lot between different models and manufacturers. Some allow you to adjust the amount of headroom. This will greatly affect the dBFS level that a constant dBu value will show as.
Thanks for sharing! How ever i dont think we need to be so anal about it. If People have pro interface where they can calibrate headroom im shure they dont need to watch this episode. 🙏
Thank you! Very effectively explained :)
Well thank you! 😊
I’ve been mixing for a couple decades now and I also started to mind gain staging in the box for the reasons you noted, and using the same reference levels.
I had these distorted mixes that I didn’t fully notice until listening outside of my usual environment, meaning I was building a tolerance to listening fatigue. Anyways it took me a while to figure out a lot of my plugins were clipping internally. Even in some cases without the internal meter going in the red. A lot of the Waves plugins are like that, and especially the ones that do analog emulation.
It can be a big problem because many plugins don’t operate this way so it’s easy to become inconsistent with your approach and before you know it you’d think you have nice “saturation” but have subtly clipped all of your transients, which is where most of the dynamics and sense of loudness and clarity come from. So you get this creeping blanket of stifled mix while losing headroom and can be very hard to figure why.
Thats a problem when you learning on analog gear first. 100% relate!
@@sibbyeskie Actually Waves analog emulation plugins have this mentioned in their manuals, some are calibrated -18 dbU some even are -22 dbU. Most of these emulations have a certain sweet spot at these levels. Reading a manual isn’t always fun but it definitely helps. One thing is certain, if we buy a expensive hardware unit we probably read the manual, with a twenty bucks plugin we tend to forget that 😉
Thanks for sharing
Your wellcome. Let me know if there something else you thinking of.
Interesting. I guess I mainly only use analogue equipment on way in. Once in digital realm I aim for around -10 peak but sometimes that goes higher. I generally don't normalise anything.
If I'm patching to an fx unit I can control the volume going in and gain on that unit so this never really becomes an issue.
But I think it's important to understand if you are doing a lot of cross over. I also wonder if any true to life copy cat plugins would be affected also.
What ever works for you is fine! If your using analog emulated plugin it will behave just like the hardware when it comes to signal.
Very interesting! Great episode! Would love to hear your thoughts on monitor calibration related to using these levels. I hear many new beat makers/songwriters/laptop producers argue that when they use the -18dBfs level reference everything sounds too quiet. I always say to turn up the monitor volume, but they say that doesn't always work. Is there more to than just turning up the knob for the speakers? How do you feel about using a limiter on the Master Bus vs just turning up the monitor volume till you get to mastering?
Just turn up the speakers if you need more volume. Dont use i limiter on the master unless its the sound youre after. Mix on low levels. If you dont your ear will get tired and you will hear things the wrong way.
@@Kenneth-F Great tip. Thank you!
So set all my faders to -18d fs then apply a gain plug in on all tracks?
Set faders to 0 dbfs. Normalize the tracks so it hits the fader at -18dbfs. 🙏
4:50 normalisation at -18dBFS peak? Mmmm I think it would be RMS.
Shure, if you want to drive it a little. Dont need to be so anal about it. 🙏
yes RMS. If youre hitting your DAW at -18dbfs peak, youre leaving an awful lot of headroom on the table. @@Kenneth-F
@@LaminarSound Thanks for your input but that have never been an issue. As I told so many times before. You dont need to be so anal about it. 🙂🙏
respectfully disagree. If its not a big deal, why not just run peaks at -6db in your DAW? I understand analog gear is looking for a RANGE of signal, not necessarily EXACTLY -18db, but the difference between -18 rms and -18 peak is substantial enough to matter in my opinion. Especially when it comes to live sound on digital consoles. @@Kenneth-F
Well -18dbfs and -6dbfs is a big differens not even close to -18dbfs peak/rms.@@LaminarSound
It depends how your converter is calibrated ....Some are calibrated at -16 dbfs ...They are not all at -18...
I have never had that. But hey so you get two more db of headroom. But still the analog wants to be hit with line level and most of analog emulated plugin wants to be hit with -18db. Dont need to be so anal about it. 🤷♂️
Perfectly explained 👍🏼👍🏼
Thank you!🙏
It’s actually not correct. The dbFS equivalent to +4dbVU is dependent on your converters. For example: 0dbFS is equivalent to the maximum dbVU of your converters. My Apollo mkIi has a maximum level of +20.2. Therefore, 0dbFS = +20.2dbVU. That means +4dbVU = -16.2dbFS for my converters. Different converters will need their own calculation. This is easily verified with a tone generator and a volt meter.
18dbFS can be used in many cases for some daws and some plugins internal to the DAW. It depends on what your system is. in hardware it’s exactly the way I posted previously.
Well off curse your right about that. How ever you dont need to be so anal about it. Most of interfaces use -18dbfs because that's what most DAW uses. And in your case you get two more db of headeroom if you use my method. Win/win. Have nice week!
Anal? No. Interfaces don’t use -18dbfs. They use their maximum output level = 0dbfs. Remember: this video will be up for years. The latest Apollos are at +24dbVU. When I upgrade I am going to have to be mindful of the difference. Otherwise, I’ll be 3.8db off if I have to reprint a new mix for a client. The outputs will interact entirely differently with my hardware.
I use a lot of Acustica Audio plugins & this is spot on. They are happiest at -18.5 Dbfs. Acustica emphasizes this. The issue I'm having is when controlling individual track volumes in the box, I always have to have a plugin at the end of the insert chain to control the "mix" level as opposed to using the faders in my daw as their stuck at -18.5 with the input. In essence it's bit of a pain because then the faders look nice but are in effect rendered useless & stationary. Any thoughts on this? Great video & you got a sub. :)
Thanks for your time! Not shure though if i understand your problem. The fader should have nothing to do with -18dbfs. Your fader should be at around zero and only feeding the masterbus. Its the input that should be at -18dbfs (the track itself) Hope that helps?
What is your thoughts on dynamic range is it pertains to gain staging. For instance using vocals as an example, you have peak and average information. Are you basing your levels on peak, or average information, or some approximation between the two? My practice has always been to send a 1k tone from my daw into my gear and set it to 0 dBu, which then gives me a good starting point.
Im using peak, how ever some times i need to change volume. I guess you should use avarage (RMS). But i still think its not 100% important. As long as you know about the diffrent with dbVu vs dbFs.
I agree but I wouldn't normalize
Why?
Why not before setting mix levels?
If at the end of your master out chain everything is -18dbfs what's the best way to get the track up to the standard radio loudness of say -8dbfs?
Put a limiter at the end of the master after the eq och compression that happens at -18dbfs.
So put a limiter at the end and pull it down until it gets loud and distorted then pull back a little so it's not distorting to get the max loudness out of the track?
@@artist1303 first make the master -18dbfs. Then correct with eq and compression to taste and when you are happy boost it to as loud as you want with a limiter. Personal im going for -14 Lufs.
Why Peak? The Hardware expects -18dbFs RMS - if I have strong peak material im way under the saturation point. Every Hardware has enoigh headroom and so does the plugins have - a VU meter is not very sensible for peaks, its rather the material over time - rms. Or did I get something wrong?
Exactly my question!
So for Calibration it's a 1kHz steady state tone = +4dBu RMS, which is also = 0 VU, and 1.23v on a voltmeter.
If you Normalized to -18dBFS peak rather than average, (sample peak vs RMS) then depending upon how transient the signal was, you'd end up with a ton of headroom.
The Crest Factor of a Bass guitar is pretty close Peak to RMS so it wouldn't be much different, but say a raw Snare mic could have Peaks a mile away from the RMS average of the signal.
That said, if normalizing to -18dBFS RMS, that Snare only has 18dB of headroom before clipping the Converters, and if you're Not compressing or limiting peaks on the way in, you may need to pull Transient channels back from that Normalized level. Or as in one of the other videos, pop an 1176 in the chain and catch those peaks.
Is that your understanding?
what media, politicians and financed 'tv experts' did to us - every time we sick we think it is 'covid'. every warmer day we think - climate change. like this never happened in the past. we have our memories cut out somehow. other that that, thank you for a video.
Thanks for sharing. However science is real.🙏
@@Kenneth-F indeed. it shows perfect correlation between temperature on earth and sun activity.
Would be nice when really showing this what you are telling.
Thanks for your time and input! Might do another episode with that in the future!
1. import tracks,
2. normalize tracks so they all hit 0dbfs,
3. use a gain plugin on all tracks, first insert, and set the gain to -18db, now all your tracks is peaking at -18dbfs.
4. use a VU meter on the master/mixbus, set all faders down so no sound is coming thru.
5. start with your kick fader (and, or with the bass fader), and set the kick fader (and, or the bass fader) so its hitting 0vu on the masterbus.
6. build the rest of your track with the faders, if you exceed 0 vu, then pull the whole mix down, some overs are okay ofc.
Or just normalize to -18 dbfs and your good to go.
@@Kenneth-F actually this is what ive been doing lately, do you have any tips on how to balance the track? i feel like once i have all the faders at 0db and the whole track screaming at me, it can be a bit overwhelming
@@MetiCudi Then its time to start mixing with eq/compression pan and faders. The -18dbfs is before the fader. Its the sound going in to the channel. Not whats going out of the fader.
Spedmau5
🤷