@@Panwere36 The founders were communists, weren't they...? Or followed a similar system...? I ask this, because I do know a lot of SJW morons like to follow communism.
The Founders seemed to be based on the living sea on the planet Solaris from Stanislaw Lem's novel Solaris. Solaris had the ability not only to fashion itself into individuals, it could also form itself into technology, cities, and starships indistinguishable from the original. The Founders' first starships could have just been themselves.
Rather ironically, what they perceived as their greatest strength, the Great Link, turned out to be their Achilles heel. When Section 31 infected Odo, the disease spread like wildfire across the Great Link because they couldn't quarantine the infected.
Supported Section 31 from the start. Knew the Federation was to goody goody to go against the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar. I roll my eyes at the episode where Sisko can't believe they infected the Founders. You got an evil authoritarian species trying to enslave the galaxy and you're worried about killing them off?!🙄
I always wondered how the ancient changelings were persecuted when they are pretty much immune to stabbing, slashing and bludgeoning and you can't tie them up or put them in a cage. The only real threats they face is fire and energy weapons.
That’s my belief as well. Odds are they were doing the infiltration stuff during their “exploration” phase trying to absorb civs into a Proto-Dominion. But without the Vorta and Jem’Hadar they failed.
Star Trek Online has a very interesting take on the Dominion, in what atrocities they did in the past with their attempts to create their empire, in their Gamma Quadrant arc.
Dude, growing up father loved anything Star Trek and so I ended up watching a lot with him. (My favorite was Next Generation) and I still feel like I learned quite a bit from your video. Thanks, this was amazingly done.
The whole "Granted changeling powers by a changeling" fits in nicely with how Odo ended up getting his shapeshifting powers back, given that it was an infant changeling who did it. Only a changeling can make another changeling.
Can we have a cultural index on humans? I think this one would be challenging, but fun. We do just about every major race out there, but outside of a few subsets of humans haven't really focused on ourselves and what we've become.
I thought them and the vorta were genetically engineered from lesser species. They vorta were said to be little more advanced than lemurs for instance.
Technically EVERY species in the Star Trek galaxy evolved from that species. That was what was implied. Lol.....plus the same actress played that alien and the Female Changeling.
@@uncletaylorify Startrek certainly recycles a lot of actors. Tons have played at least 2 or 3 roles. But Jeffrey Combs (Weyoun on DS9) and Vaughn Armstrong (best known for Admiral Forrest on Enterprise) have both played at least a dozen different characters across the various startrek series.
Excellent video on one of Trek's most fascinating races, the Founders. I always viewed the Founders as a cautionary tale to oppressed people to beware becoming like your oppressors. As for the next video, I vote for the Vorta.
I liked how the differences between solid and changeling went beyond just mere mistrust because they can change shape--they had a fundamentally different way of dealing with the universe being ne giant being--there's no lies and deceptions and words, no disorder, nigh immortal, no murder.
The Changelings raised in the Link could hold their shape longer than Odo and could transform into onjects better than he could.....but even they had to revert back to liquid form at times.
@@DeathBYDesign666 The Changeling that died from holding its shape was already wounded when its ship crashed without inertial dampeners. It basically survived enough impact to liquefy a human's insides. We don't know how long it could have held its shape if it wasn't injured.
Good question. I'm suprised they never made any attempt to address that on DS9. You would think that during the Dominion's 10,000 year history in the Gamma quadrant they would have been confronted by at least a cube or two. Apparently they were able to coexist with them. Maybe the Jem'Hadar were just more than the Borg were willing to take on. Or maybe the Founders simply gave the Borg a few people to assimilate off each of the humanoid planets under their control from time to time. It seems unlikely the Founders themselves could be assimilated. But one thing both speices seemed to have in common was their desire to impose order on chaos.
@@jacksonheathen2092 i think the borg just couldn't really work in the gamma quadrant. think about it the jem'hadar are genetically engineered super soldiers who could probably best borg drones in hand to hand combat, there is also their dependence on ketracel white, which could interfere with the process of assimilation to some degree, plus the founders are notoriously secretive so no jem'hadar is ever told information that could be valuable to the collective. then you have the vorta who are completely subservient to the founders and perfectly willing to lay down their lives in order to protect the founders, this means that, while the vorta, unlike the jem'hadar, know the founders goals, plans and other secrets, they are also perfectly willing to kill themselves to avoid assimilation, self destruct their own ships to prevent their tech from falling into borg hands or even ramming them into borg vessels to destroy them, if that is what it takes to protect the founders. basically my idea is that the borg could probably overwhelm the dominion if they seriously tried, but when they started exploring the gamma quadrant they probably lost more than what they gained and decided to finish with the rest of the galaxy first before venturing further into dominion space.
@@windhelmguard5295 This makes the most sense too me. I also believe the Borg saw the dominion as little more then pests. Well organized effecient pest though so that would considerble resources to deal with. A encirclement strategy would make the most sense in that situation.
@@Not-Ap the Founders also play the long game as well. Dominion is just too vast and their industrial base was vast as well. They can build ships at an alarming rate.
The Borg probably see the Jem'hadar as unworthy to assimilate, and thus don't care enough to expend any resources to push into the Gamma quadrant when there are more interesting and worthy races to assimilate elsewhere. Borg aren't interested in expanding their territory just to have territory. In a full out war, I have trouble seeing the Borg lose. However it would be a costly victory, and probably not worth the cost unless the Borg had no where else to expand.
I think so many people like DS9 because it had a story arc that spanned the entire series. Things tied into each other without the randomness of any of the other Star Trek franchises. Personally, I prefer Bab 5.
An interesting compare and contrast would the Jem'Hadar and the Clone Grand Army of the Republic. Both are slave armies, though the Jem'Hadar or more ruthless and the clones, at least under the command of some Jedi, were allowed to be given some freedoms.
Until Odo no changeling has ever harmed another... well at 4:41 it certainly looks like that changeling hurt Odo first! I always wondered how a changeling like Odo could go from something like his humanoid form to a rat. Where does all his extra mass go? He’s either hollow as a humanoid or extremely heavy and dense as a rat, neither of which would hard to detect with sensors etc. Also, in “Vortex” he was said to be heavy as a humanoid, but he was easily carried in his liquid form in “Invasive Procedures”. Do changelings have some ability to drop mass when they change, like into subspace or something. And I always took the 16 hour time limit as a specifically Odo thing due to his relative inexperience of shapeshifting. I doubt infiltrators like Bashir or Martok would have been able to risk reverting every 16 hours, especially if they ended up in, say, a runabout on a two day flight with someone.
The mass is a good point, but yes the 16 hour regen is an odo thing. When they turned him human. He actually was never a real human, he was just locked in that form, even bashir told odo when they returned to the station that most of his organs was still goo, even the lost changling that found odo was over 200 years old as sentient being not just goo. Odo was basically just an infant barely learning how to walk.
Edgy pumpkin I’m pretty sure that when Bashir scanned Odo after he’d been thrown out of the Link he said he was reading lungs and digestive system (internal organs anyway). The Female Changeling said they made him human, but later Odo speculated that his face was left as was a reminder of what he’d done and what he’d lost.
Yeah, i’m pretty sure Odo was actually turned into a human and not just locked into humanoid form, because if it was the latter case he still wouldn’t need to eat
In the very first Star Trek DS9 book that came out right after the pilot.....before the Founders/Dominion were in thought of.....it shows Odo turning into a rat to follow a bad guy. He latches onto the aliens pants leg and when the alien goes to shake him off it's mentioned that even as a small rat Odo still has his entire mass weight still.
Good question. In the TNG episode "The Chase", it's strongly implied that the galaxy was seeded with life or "founded" by a race of beings who look just like the Founders on DS9. In their holographic message they express their hope that all the different species would eventually become space faring, discover each other, and live together in a harmonious galactic community. Fast forward to DS9 and the Founders, one of whom is even played by the same actress, control a suspicious, paranoid, totalitarian empire hellbent on dominating its many species. That's quite a 180. The difference is so stark that it makes you wonder if they are the same species at all, or if their appearance was simply lifted from TNG and inserted into DS9. If we assume they are the same species, we could explain their difference in attitude by the multi-million year gap between the Founders depicted on TNG and those on DS9.
Not everything works out perfectly accross the board. Look at the original Klingons compared to TNG Klingons. As Worf put it on a crossover episode- "We don't like to talk about it" hahaha
Ryan MacFarlane "The Chase" is also the makeup they copied for Odo and the Dominion Founders. There seemed to be no later reference to the appearance of that character to Picard his new shag and the other races. Funny that the Founders are genderless but have obvious visual and vocal specialization to Earth Human genders.
What I have noticed about the Link is that the rate at which communication occurs between Founders is far quicker than speech or even standard telepathy. I'd say even the Borg communicate at a slower pace. Best example is when Odo heals the Female. Considering her determination not to surrender moments before, the two obviously had a conversation while linked. And I doubt it was short or easy. But time is not really perceived in the Link it seems.
I have always wondered to myself whether the Founders can truly be said to be a race of individuals or if they are a single super organism that can temporarily break off pieces of itself which than function autonomously
Founders. Just as immune to assimilation as Species 8472. Plus I hate the dang Borg, and am super glad they are gone. The Dominion on the other hand are just regrouping and biding their time. Both had the ability to make unlimited numbers of soldiers though.
@@bcs2em625 the Borg are utter shits,a bunch of zombies that's all ,I'd like to have seen the Dominion have far more success in DS9 maybe conquering planets like Vulcan or even Earth,even if it was just temporary, maybe indulging in some genocide on a grand scale, that would have made them even more fearsome.
You would think the Dominion would have encountered at least a cube or two during their 10,000 year history in the Gamma quadrant. Apparently they must have had some kind of understanding with them. One thing the Founders and Borg had in common was a desire to impose order on chaos. I'm suprised they never made any attempt to address that on DS9.
You say they have no culture, art, drama ect, but who knows what's going on in the great link. Perhaps the link features theatre that puts shame to shakespere and symphonies that make mozart sound like nails on a blackboard. It makes sense that they wouldn't make anything in the real world when they exist almost entirely within the link. It also makes sense they wouldn't bother with frivolities such as a sense of aesthetics in the Vorta when as far as they are concerned nothing outside of the link is worth appreciating.
They settled - not their home planet, they CHOSE to live there - on a planet only slightly more appealing than Rura Pente. I think they're just not terribly creative.
One major plot-whole. As you just said, and as several Changeling characters have said, "To understand an object is to become that object". It has also been said by you and several Changeling characters that they sometimes spend days as an object (like a rock) to understand it. How can this be when they have to convert back to their liquid state every 16 hours ?
@@Janoha17 You're missing the point, You can not exist as a rock for several days if you have to revert to a liquid every 16 hours. This has nothing to do with Odo personally.
@@tisFrancesfault Yeah, but that is not the same as being an object for several days. That would be turning into a rock, then turning into liquid, then turning back into a rock again. Why can't you folks get the logic of this ? You can not be a rock, bird or anything else for days, if you have to be liquid every 16 hours.
Has there ever been any conflict between the Borg and the Founders. I suspect that the conflict would be interesting as the Borg assimilation tech may not work in its present iteration against the morphogenic Founders.
Yes in the books there were I believe. The thing about the dominion is the vast majority of it is made up of clones which are switched out every couple of years for new clones. Aside from the cloning tech itself and maybe the polaron weapon the dominion simply doesn't have much of value. They actively suppress other races and hinder there technological/societal development thus stifling all forms of innovation/evolution. None of this adds to there goals of perfection. The Dominion are simply a more advanced version of the khazon who the Borg look at as little more than rats.
Ric thanks for another great video! But.. i can't choose between the two, i would like both! Although the Vorta would be the choice if you twist my arm.. but don't, rather do both :)
Yeah, among other things, Odos face in humanoid form is supposed to be because he can't do faces all that well, and its through lack of experience that he does faces like that... so why do the founders have this issue
@@alexandercross9081 not all of them did- we see one disguised as O'Brien. I figured the female changeling did that so Odo would identify with her better.
@@josiahzabel8596 Good answer, I had the same question. But how can they mimic human life so well? Odo was among humans (okay Bajorans but still) his entire life and he can barely mimic them but the founders saw them once and they were able to mimic humans perfectly. I get they have a lot more experience but Odo literally spent years trying to mimic this one race and the founders were able to just pick it up perfectly after seeing them once.
@@alexandercross9081 they dont. they took that form to make odo comfortable. Odo ws never trained how to shapeshift properly so he want able to master the nuisances like the founders.
Have you considered giving Thanks to the Founders by turning November 2019 into Dominion Month? Vorta, Jem'Hedar, and the Others (like the Dosi and any other race)
Question. I'm watching Voyager for the first time. Is the Silver Blood related to the Founders/Changling? Like you said about the young Changling, the Silver Blood need a "taste" of sentient life and DNA to change into sentient humanoid life. Another thing too is they were founded on a very dangerous Y planet nicknamed Demon planet. Like you said later in the video. The Changling left to stagnated on a lifeless planet. Since the Delta and Gama Quadrant are right next to each other could they be like the Vulcans and the Romulans?
The VIL story arc on STO is Interesting. I have heard (never seen it) but apparently the last scene in ds9 is the female changing in her prison cell where Q comes up from the floor as a shapeshifter, and tells the female changing “I told you so”it was a deleted scene but I have never seen proof of this. I have also heard that the founders where actually not that interested in anything but apparently they got word of the federation at some point and started beefing up their military and ships (apparently that is beta) and lastly (also beta) that the borg also have meet the changlings before however apparently a very painful process but the founders can actually squeeze out the nanites and can’t be assimilated (again that the book beta and I don’t know all of the story on that).
Has anyone considered that the race that made Armus was the Founders? When you think about it, it makes sense and fits with their emotionless existence.
DS9 provided so much needed lore to the Trek universe. The whole religious aspect of the plot arc was annoying but everything from gorn to the ferengi to the trill, dominion, and founders. So much lore I loved it.
It would have been nice if the ST:TNG episode "The Chase" was included. You could draw some interesting conclusions from it. I see also a parallel with the LCL and the AT-field in Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Wonder if the changelings are at all related to the silver fluid from voyager. I felt so bad for them when they’re final episode came (voyager „clones“) 🤔😔
I don't think Odo could change the Founders but I do think they could change him, what a version of him did in Children of Time shows how ruthless and selfish he can be.
We've met 1 possibly 2 of them. Laas and the infant Odo tried to raise while he was locked in a solid form (as it was dying it merged with Odo restoring his shapeshifting)
J. Buick don't you mean 97? We know what became of two of them. One of them was the sick baby changeling who gave Odo back his ability to shape shift and the other was Las, and we know what became of him too, at least up until the point when he said goodbye to Odo. That leaves only 97 infant changelings and accounted for.
Odo was security chief on DS9 until he returned to his people to cure them of a disease as a condition of the Dominion's surrender to the Federation-Klingon-Romulon alliance. Lass was wondering around the Galaxy for a few hundred years after living with humanoids, looking for others of his kind until he met Odo, after Odo explained some things to him, he eventually went out in search of the others within the 100 to form a new link (one that would not conquer or interact with humanoids). Since he linked with Odo, while Odo was asymptomatic with the disease, Lass may also be infected and may or may not be symptomatic. Another infant changeling was exposed to a particularly deadly form of radiation to it, when it was found as sold to Quark, who then sold it to Odo. Bashir tried to cure and he initially appeared to have succeeded. Odo took it upon himself to raise this infant changeling (even though at this point in time Odo was locked into a humanoid form). Unfortunately the infant changeling was more sick than Bashir realized and was once again dying with nothing that could be done to save it, so as Odo was by its side as it was dying it integrated itself into Odo restoring Odo's ability to shapeshift. The other 97 were launched into the galaxy in all directions from a rouge planet without a star in a far corner of the Gamma quadrant that the Changelings lived on, some of which may still be in a dormant state, others with various experiences, etc... all programed genetically to eventually find their way back to the Great Link over the course of many centuries.
Couldn't it be that the Founders are the same people that Salia in The Dauphin (TNG) is supposed to be leading - that the character we know as the Female Changeling is in fact Salia from that episode? After all, Salia and her guardian are remarkably secretive about the culture they come from, and they adopt human form for rhw convencience of the race transporting them there. It is said several times that Salia is to be a "leader" in the sense of a queen or a President or something like that, but Salia herself explain that "there is no word in your language that explains what I am going to be". Couldn't that mean that rather than being a "leader", she is meant to give up her very individuality (merge with her "subjects") in order to take up her position.
huh...first reference that came to mind at the start of this video was Sergeant Schlock. further into the video I realized that the founders would absolutely ABHOR Carbosillicate Amorphs rather than just find them odd. amorphs on the other hand seem predisposed to like pretty much everything and everyone, even stuff trying to kill them, most likely a side-effect/leftover from their origin...not sure how spoilery that'd be to mention since it's really not important to the story, just dropping some forshadowing/worldbuilding way to early. important to note that while an amorph has almost no bias and pretty much automatically likes new things they also have no predisposition towards any form of morality or even basic biological imperatives, they are childlike, engaging, genuinely interested in you, almost universally endearing, and yet one of the single most *alien* creatures I have ever seen in any work of fiction both in-setting and from a reader's perspective. basically, they have never in any way cared about any of the shaping factors that have molded every other living thing in existence and by extension every subsequent form of AI. they didn't come into being with any regard to selection pressures and simply haven't died off yet as a result by merit of already being good for just about anything life can throw at them.
I am curious about a few things that don't quite add up. I understand that certain concepts had to be assumed, contrived, or just because as a plot devise. The producers, props people, and writers had to work with reality unlike a cartoon. 1) As the type of life forms they are, how and why would the Founders garner intelligence to construct genetic manipulation? 2) When they sent just a handful of Changelings to Starfleet Headqurters and one to the Klingon High Command, why didn't they send hundreds? Had they done so, they could have completely assured themselves of victory. Also send some to the other powers (Romulans, Cardssians, etc.) I would include almost any planet to to make sure that planet fell in line 3) Why would the Founders send 100 out to explore. This number is human (I realize most of the other civilizations all were human form with ten fingers) However, this number means nothing to them 4) How could solids have tormented/attacked/etc. Changelings? If a Changeling could assume any form, it would be easy for it to escape. e.g. change into a local tree, a rock, or a meteor if you're in space 5) If I were to be one of the Founders, I would have just laid a siege at the wormhole. You come in, you ain't getting out or even surviving. 6) Why did the female Changeling had to assume human form? If you want to strike fear into Earthlings, don't look like my grandma! 7) I understand Odo's inability to mimic a human face due to lack of experience, but why did the female (before the affliction) also did not have a fully formed face? The other Changelings did when they mimicked Adm. Leyton, O'Brien, and Martok 8) When punishing Odo, why have him look human? Now he can stay with the beings he was with before. Change him into a solid that is much more limited, like a worm, a tree, or a paramecium. It was supposed to be a punishment. Making him solid wasn't enough. That's it for now, but there are a few more
You would think that in the Dominion's long history in the Gamma quadrant they would have encountered at least a cube or two. Apparently they were able to coexist. I'm suprised they never made any attempt to address that on DS9.
@Amber Hoke Thanks. Maybe the Borg never made it to the Gamma quadrant. Just something I always wondered about. Although with that transwarp hub they destoryed in the final episode of Voyager, you would think the Borg would have been just about everywhere. Obviously it would be difficult to assimilate a changling. But they had a little bit in common with the Borg. The founders also wanted to impose order on chaos, and they had their own organic collective (the great link). Perhaps the Borg and the Dominion were aware of each other and had a non aggression pact, or maybe the Borg simply weren't willing to fight all the Jem'Hadar.
I'd imagine their "great link" is something like a near infinite constructed reality when combined like that. That much processing power could generate more exploration and entertainment unbound by physics than reality. The founders just want to make sure the solid world outside their imagination playground universe doesn't stop the party so they crush the solid world under heel.
they were space faring? they had ships and shipyards of their own?? i always assumed they just waited for some race to come to them, then stole their ships or just snuck aboard
I was wondering if you can investigate a theory I have. The Theory have we seen a Changeling before DS9. It is in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country there a Chameloids. However, we learn from Odo that he didn't know where he came from and that the founders send out their young and those Changelings eventually return. It possible that some Changelings were discovered by other races like the Klingons and were called Chameloids. So you have a group of shapeshifters who are so rare and unknown that Bones thought they were Myths. Given a difference in CGI between the Movie and DS9 Show could explain why they don't appear 100% the same. Star Trek has changed species appearances between shows before (example Klingons). The shifting between forms in both the Changelings and the Chameloids appears fluid. Other Star Trek Shapeshifters are more energy or use mental manipulation.
Imagine evolving so far and so long that you just turn into a puddle with a bad attitude
That's basically me
@@generalgk Uhh, no... You're like an ant in comparison to the founders. lol.
The Founders are what happens when military might is given to SJWs with no boundaries.
@@Panwere36 The founders were communists, weren't they...? Or followed a similar system...? I ask this, because I do know a lot of SJW morons like to follow communism.
You have now been gifted with the magic number of 69.
RIP Rene Auberjonois :-( thank you for your performance
Noooo
Nooooo
😪
Grateful to have met him and a part of long history
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Bonaparte
The Founders seemed to be based on the living sea on the planet Solaris from Stanislaw Lem's novel Solaris. Solaris had the ability not only to fashion itself into individuals, it could also form itself into technology, cities, and starships indistinguishable from the original. The Founders' first starships could have just been themselves.
Or just... Fly in space since they don't need air or anything to exist as we see in an episode where one of them is flapping around in space.
I think that idea was recycled ♻️ on the episode of Voyager with the demon plastic duplicates
Rather ironically, what they perceived as their greatest strength, the Great Link, turned out to be their Achilles heel. When Section 31 infected Odo, the disease spread like wildfire across the Great Link because they couldn't quarantine the infected.
When Odo was first sent out into the galaxy as an infant, he didn't know what he was, his people or his planet.
You are absoluttly right on that
@@jasonnewsham7724 I read about his backstory in the Star Trek visual dictionary.
Supported Section 31 from the start. Knew the Federation was to goody goody to go against the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar. I roll my eyes at the episode where Sisko can't believe they infected the Founders. You got an evil authoritarian species trying to enslave the galaxy and you're worried about killing them off?!🙄
@@uncletaylorify That's what section 31 is meant for. When Federation is bound by rules, they come in.
I always wondered how the ancient changelings were persecuted when they are pretty much immune to stabbing, slashing and bludgeoning and you can't tie them up or put them in a cage. The only real threats they face is fire and energy weapons.
Most interstellar species have access to fire and energy weapons :P
Something tells me the founders were doing their evil duplicitous nonsense long before they were ever persecuted.
That one founder could turn into fire, so was it fire fire or fake fire?
A flame thrower will do the trick.
That’s my belief as well. Odds are they were doing the infiltration stuff during their “exploration” phase trying to absorb civs into a Proto-Dominion. But without the Vorta and Jem’Hadar they failed.
Star Trek Online has a very interesting take on the Dominion, in what atrocities they did in the past with their attempts to create their empire, in their Gamma Quadrant arc.
Oh i know that one very interesting how they made Klingon myth into reality. THE SWORD OF KAHLESS IS MADE OF HURQ CARAPACE!!
Weyoun 1-8 liked this Video
Just the right amount of likes :)
LMAO 😂
Except for Weyoun 6 though! He defected
Liked by Shran and Brunt too
@@PPikes he was a loyal Vorta after all
Except Weyoun 7, he didn't like the references to the Kilingons, especially Worf
Dude, growing up father loved anything Star Trek and so I ended up watching a lot with him. (My favorite was Next Generation) and I still feel like I learned quite a bit from your video. Thanks, this was amazingly done.
If you think about it shape shifting is “Art” They can experience any object
The progenitors, the preserves and the founders are all one group that has changed significantly over time, becoming different species over the eons.
The whole "Granted changeling powers by a changeling" fits in nicely with how Odo ended up getting his shapeshifting powers back, given that it was an infant changeling who did it. Only a changeling can make another changeling.
The Changelings are definitely the most interesting species I have seen on Star Trek and I would really love to get more of them on screen.
Congrats! Season 3 of Picard has your back! 😂
I hope the great link provides the late Odo (Rene O.) eternal fulfillment. We will miss you.
I love this series! I watch them while I'm playing STO so I can get a better understanding of the races and cultures - keep em' coming :)
Great piece! Would love to see a vid on the Fremen of Frank Herbert’s Dune
That was a fantastic video! Very eloquent and thoughtful insights on the Founders here. Thank you so much for making this!
Can we have a cultural index on humans? I think this one would be challenging, but fun. We do just about every major race out there, but outside of a few subsets of humans haven't really focused on ourselves and what we've become.
I've wondered why there isn't one for humans myself. I mean, they are a species.
It would not surprise me if the Jem'Hadar were genetically derived from the Hurq that attacked the Klingons so long ago.
If you play STO, you're sort of close, but not quite.
@@Corbomite_Meatballs I do play STO, but I haven't done any Dominion stuff. Do you think I should?
I thought them and the vorta were genetically engineered from lesser species. They vorta were said to be little more advanced than lemurs for instance.
@@DeathBYDesign666 That might just be a myth the founders spread to bolster their godlike image.
Why would you think the founder's find the hurq genetically modified them into the Jem'hadar
When Odo was punished for killing a changeling he wasnt locked in the humanoid form that he usualy exists in he WAS changed into a humanoid.
Your videos are always great and this one is no exception. Thank you.
I like the theory that they evolved from the ancient humanoid
seen in The Chase in TNG.
Technically EVERY species in the Star Trek galaxy evolved from that species. That was what was implied. Lol.....plus the same actress played that alien and the Female Changeling.
@@uncletaylorify Startrek certainly recycles a lot of actors. Tons have played at least 2 or 3 roles.
But Jeffrey Combs (Weyoun on DS9) and Vaughn Armstrong (best known for Admiral Forrest on Enterprise) have both played at least a dozen different characters across the various startrek series.
Excellent video on one of Trek's most fascinating races, the Founders. I always viewed the Founders as a cautionary tale to oppressed people to beware becoming like your oppressors.
As for the next video, I vote for the Vorta.
I reckon they were actually doing the infiltration stuff from the start. Just without the Vorta and Jem’Hadar it failed.
@@Gothic7876 agreed they're way to skilled at being evil for them to have ever been good
“What you can control can’t hurt you, but what you oppress will”
I would like to recommend the Caitians for the next Federation Cultural index.
I always prefer the idea that they were always shapeshifters
I liked how the differences between solid and changeling went beyond just mere mistrust because they can change shape--they had a fundamentally different way of dealing with the universe being ne giant being--there's no lies and deceptions and words, no disorder, nigh immortal, no murder.
Odo needs to regenerate, it's not clear if other, older, Changelings need to.
Actually one died from holding its shape for several days, so yeah even the older ones need to, but probably less often than Odo.
The Changelings raised in the Link could hold their shape longer than Odo and could transform into onjects better than he could.....but even they had to revert back to liquid form at times.
@@DeathBYDesign666 The Changeling that died from holding its shape was already wounded when its ship crashed without inertial dampeners. It basically survived enough impact to liquefy a human's insides. We don't know how long it could have held its shape if it wasn't injured.
I wonder how the Borg and Dominion would interact?
Good question. I'm suprised they never made any attempt to address that on DS9. You would think that during the Dominion's 10,000 year history in the Gamma quadrant they would have been confronted by at least a cube or two.
Apparently they were able to coexist with them. Maybe the Jem'Hadar were just more than the Borg were willing to take on.
Or maybe the Founders simply gave the Borg a few people to assimilate off each of the humanoid planets under their control from time to time.
It seems unlikely the Founders themselves could be assimilated. But one thing both speices seemed to have in common was their desire to impose order on chaos.
@@jacksonheathen2092
i think the borg just couldn't really work in the gamma quadrant.
think about it the jem'hadar are genetically engineered super soldiers who could probably best borg drones in hand to hand combat, there is also their dependence on ketracel white, which could interfere with the process of assimilation to some degree, plus the founders are notoriously secretive so no jem'hadar is ever told information that could be valuable to the collective.
then you have the vorta who are completely subservient to the founders and perfectly willing to lay down their lives in order to protect the founders, this means that, while the vorta, unlike the jem'hadar, know the founders goals, plans and other secrets, they are also perfectly willing to kill themselves to avoid assimilation, self destruct their own ships to prevent their tech from falling into borg hands or even ramming them into borg vessels to destroy them, if that is what it takes to protect the founders.
basically my idea is that the borg could probably overwhelm the dominion if they seriously tried, but when they started exploring the gamma quadrant they probably lost more than what they gained and decided to finish with the rest of the galaxy first before venturing further into dominion space.
@@windhelmguard5295 This makes the most sense too me. I also believe the Borg saw the dominion as little more then pests. Well organized effecient pest though so that would considerble resources to deal with. A encirclement strategy would make the most sense in that situation.
@@Not-Ap the Founders also play the long game as well. Dominion is just too vast and their industrial base was vast as well. They can build ships at an alarming rate.
The Borg probably see the Jem'hadar as unworthy to assimilate, and thus don't care enough to expend any resources to push into the Gamma quadrant when there are more interesting and worthy races to assimilate elsewhere. Borg aren't interested in expanding their territory just to have territory. In a full out war, I have trouble seeing the Borg lose. However it would be a costly victory, and probably not worth the cost unless the Borg had no where else to expand.
Which is a more powerful group conciousness? The Founders Link or the Borg's Collective?
Good question. My guess would be the Borg since they were also able to incorporate computers into their group mind.
the founders have far more flexability and adaptability but the borg would be superior in raw computational power
The Dominion has endured for over two thousand years, and will continue to endure long after the Federation has crumbled into dust.
Spoken like a true founder.
@@CathrineMacNiel Wayown
But we leave that to history.
Than where are they in season 3 of Disco.
@@WilliamAmbervein Then*
Ds9 and all related to these time line in star trek was and is still my favourite.
I think so many people like DS9 because it had a story arc that spanned the entire series. Things tied into each other without the randomness of any of the other Star Trek franchises. Personally, I prefer Bab 5.
@@KatrinaLeFaye , not gonna lie that's pretty much true what you wrote. And I also used to watch Bab due to the good story and change of events.
Hello, could you do a versus video of The Jem'Hadar soldiers against the Super Soldiers of TNG Season 3 Eps.11 "The Hunted".
An interesting compare and contrast would the Jem'Hadar and the Clone Grand Army of the Republic. Both are slave armies, though the Jem'Hadar or more ruthless and the clones, at least under the command of some Jedi, were allowed to be given some freedoms.
Until Odo no changeling has ever harmed another... well at 4:41 it certainly looks like that changeling hurt Odo first!
I always wondered how a changeling like Odo could go from something like his humanoid form to a rat. Where does all his extra mass go? He’s either hollow as a humanoid or extremely heavy and dense as a rat, neither of which would hard to detect with sensors etc. Also, in “Vortex” he was said to be heavy as a humanoid, but he was easily carried in his liquid form in “Invasive Procedures”. Do changelings have some ability to drop mass when they change, like into subspace or something.
And I always took the 16 hour time limit as a specifically Odo thing due to his relative inexperience of shapeshifting. I doubt infiltrators like Bashir or Martok would have been able to risk reverting every 16 hours, especially if they ended up in, say, a runabout on a two day flight with someone.
I seem to recall some mention that they can push and pull their mass into a subspace pocket of some kind yeah
The mass is a good point, but yes the 16 hour regen is an odo thing. When they turned him human. He actually was never a real human, he was just locked in that form, even bashir told odo when they returned to the station that most of his organs was still goo, even the lost changling that found odo was over 200 years old as sentient being not just goo. Odo was basically just an infant barely learning how to walk.
Edgy pumpkin I’m pretty sure that when Bashir scanned Odo after he’d been thrown out of the Link he said he was reading lungs and digestive system (internal organs anyway). The Female Changeling said they made him human, but later Odo speculated that his face was left as was a reminder of what he’d done and what he’d lost.
Yeah, i’m pretty sure Odo was actually turned into a human and not just locked into humanoid form, because if it was the latter case he still wouldn’t need to eat
In the very first Star Trek DS9 book that came out right after the pilot.....before the Founders/Dominion were in thought of.....it shows Odo turning into a rat to follow a bad guy. He latches onto the aliens pants leg and when the alien goes to shake him off it's mentioned that even as a small rat Odo still has his entire mass weight still.
What about the shapeshifters in the next generation? Are they in anyway related to the founders?
Good question. In the TNG episode "The Chase", it's strongly implied that the galaxy was seeded with life or "founded" by a race of beings who look just like the Founders on DS9. In their holographic message they express their hope that all the different species would eventually become space faring, discover each other, and live together in a harmonious galactic community.
Fast forward to DS9 and the Founders, one of whom is even played by the same actress, control a suspicious, paranoid, totalitarian empire hellbent on dominating its many species. That's quite a 180.
The difference is so stark that it makes you wonder if they are the same species at all, or if their appearance was simply lifted from TNG and inserted into DS9. If we assume they are the same species, we could explain their difference in attitude by the multi-million year gap between the Founders depicted on TNG and those on DS9.
That’s a very good point I think the founders are a sub species like the Vulcans and the Romulans as there nothing like there peace loving ancestors.
Could have been the founders of the founders.
Not everything works out perfectly accross the board. Look at the original Klingons compared to TNG Klingons. As Worf put it on a crossover episode-
"We don't like to talk about it" hahaha
Ryan MacFarlane
"The Chase" is also the makeup they copied for Odo and the Dominion Founders. There seemed to be no later reference to the appearance of that character to Picard his new shag and the other races.
Funny that the Founders are genderless but have obvious visual and vocal specialization to Earth Human genders.
What I have noticed about the Link is that the rate at which communication occurs between Founders is far quicker than speech or even standard telepathy. I'd say even the Borg communicate at a slower pace. Best example is when Odo heals the Female. Considering her determination not to surrender moments before, the two obviously had a conversation while linked. And I doubt it was short or easy. But time is not really perceived in the Link it seems.
Great information
star trek is full of dire warnings about what our society can become
I have always wondered to myself whether the Founders can truly be said to be a race of individuals or if they are a single super organism that can temporarily break off pieces of itself which than function autonomously
Wow. Great info! Thanks for sharing!
Is there a chance you could make a video about the Skeksis from The Dark Crystal?
I wonder if the race that shed Armus (Skin of Evil) had merged with the Founders humanoid form to create what became the Changlings
Cool video :D
Next: The Wraith (Stargate) (please?)
I'd love a video on the Wraith.
YEEESSS!
So much yes!
Ooo! Founders vs. The Borg! Place your bets, everyone! 😈
Borg
Founders
Founders. Just as immune to assimilation as Species 8472. Plus I hate the dang Borg, and am super glad they are gone. The Dominion on the other hand are just regrouping and biding their time. Both had the ability to make unlimited numbers of soldiers though.
@@bcs2em625 the Borg are utter shits,a bunch of zombies that's all ,I'd like to have seen the Dominion have far more success in DS9 maybe conquering planets like Vulcan or even Earth,even if it was just temporary, maybe indulging in some genocide on a grand scale, that would have made them even more fearsome.
You would think the Dominion would have encountered at least a cube or two during their 10,000 year history in the Gamma quadrant.
Apparently they must have had some kind of understanding with them. One thing the Founders and Borg had in common was a desire to impose order on chaos.
I'm suprised they never made any attempt to address that on DS9.
They have achived instrumentalization or a form close to it.
Please can you make a video about this Sonic screwdriver thank you for your time please keep up the amazing work and with long and prosper
3:09 Sounds kinda like a Vulcan Mind Meld.
I think that it did have some kind of telepathic basis
You say they have no culture, art, drama ect, but who knows what's going on in the great link. Perhaps the link features theatre that puts shame to shakespere and symphonies that make mozart sound like nails on a blackboard. It makes sense that they wouldn't make anything in the real world when they exist almost entirely within the link. It also makes sense they wouldn't bother with frivolities such as a sense of aesthetics in the Vorta when as far as they are concerned nothing outside of the link is worth appreciating.
They settled - not their home planet, they CHOSE to live there - on a planet only slightly more appealing than Rura Pente. I think they're just not terribly creative.
Rick sir, I found this video to be quite interesting,entertaining, and comprehensive 👍
Very interesting and informative video. So the Founders are a lot like the Star Trek version of the Kaminoans from Star Wars.
Except like way more genocidal and evil
Yet another call for a Cultural Index for the 'Kilrathi' of Wing Commander!
Wow, they sounds like facedancers from dune!
One major plot-whole. As you just said, and as several Changeling characters have said, "To understand an object is to become that object". It has also been said by you and several Changeling characters that they sometimes spend days as an object (like a rock) to understand it. How can this be when they have to convert back to their liquid state every 16 hours ?
Odo isn't well practiced in shapeshifting.
@@Janoha17 You're missing the point, You can not exist as a rock for several days if you have to revert to a liquid every 16 hours. This has nothing to do with Odo personally.
@@Abbriscoe probably just exist as nothing else besides liquid and rock for a while
Well that's easy after 16 hours, they regenerate, then afterwards they turn back into the object at hand.
@@tisFrancesfault Yeah, but that is not the same as being an object for several days. That would be turning into a rock, then turning into liquid, then turning back into a rock again. Why can't you folks get the logic of this ? You can not be a rock, bird or anything else for days, if you have to be liquid every 16 hours.
Has there ever been any conflict between the Borg and the Founders. I suspect that the conflict would be interesting as the Borg assimilation tech may not work in its present iteration against the morphogenic Founders.
Yes in the books there were I believe. The thing about the dominion is the vast majority of it is made up of clones which are switched out every couple of years for new clones. Aside from the cloning tech itself and maybe the polaron weapon the dominion simply doesn't have much of value. They actively suppress other races and hinder there technological/societal development thus stifling all forms of innovation/evolution. None of this adds to there goals of perfection. The Dominion are simply a more advanced version of the khazon who the Borg look at as little more than rats.
Ric thanks for another great video! But.. i can't choose between the two, i would like both! Although the Vorta would be the choice if you twist my arm.. but don't, rather do both :)
are they as old as the iconians?
I was never a fan of the Founders other than Odo.
Yeah, among other things, Odos face in humanoid form is supposed to be because he can't do faces all that well, and its through lack of experience that he does faces like that... so why do the founders have this issue
@@alexandercross9081 not all of them did- we see one disguised as O'Brien. I figured the female changeling did that so Odo would identify with her better.
@@josiahzabel8596 Good answer, I had the same question. But how can they mimic human life so well? Odo was among humans (okay Bajorans but still) his entire life and he can barely mimic them but the founders saw them once and they were able to mimic humans perfectly. I get they have a lot more experience but Odo literally spent years trying to mimic this one race and the founders were able to just pick it up perfectly after seeing them once.
@@josiahzabel8596 possible, I always thought it was because they are copying something, rather than trying to make so,ething unique
@@alexandercross9081 they dont. they took that form to make odo comfortable. Odo ws never trained how to shapeshift properly so he want able to master the nuisances like the founders.
Since they want to bring all these shows back they should do a reboot of Odo re-joining the link and how it effected them and the Dominion as a whole.
Founders were basically like Cardassians....with Federation-level resources and Klingon military.
How do you beat a changeling to death?
You know for a species that hates solids they do seem to be fascinated about what its like to be one.
Hey can you please do a video on Zeon from Gundam later.
Yeah!
Technically the female changeling leader killed several to cover her tracks
Great stuff as always
The Founders are wise in all things.
Have you considered giving Thanks to the Founders by turning November 2019 into Dominion Month? Vorta, Jem'Hedar, and the Others (like the Dosi and any other race)
Curious if the Changelings will make an appearance in Discovery season 3. Hmmm
Hopefully not, the terrible show that is Discovery should stay away from DS9 lore and not ruin it.
Question. I'm watching Voyager for the first time. Is the Silver Blood related to the Founders/Changling? Like you said about the young Changling, the Silver Blood need a "taste" of sentient life and DNA to change into sentient humanoid life. Another thing too is they were founded on a very dangerous Y planet nicknamed Demon planet. Like you said later in the video. The Changling left to stagnated on a lifeless planet. Since the Delta and Gama Quadrant are right next to each other could they be like the Vulcans and the Romulans?
The VIL story arc on STO is Interesting. I have heard (never seen it) but apparently the last scene in ds9 is the female changing in her prison cell where Q comes up from the floor as a shapeshifter, and tells the female changing “I told you so”it was a deleted scene but I have never seen proof of this. I have also heard that the founders where actually not that interested in anything but apparently they got word of the federation at some point and started beefing up their military and ships (apparently that is beta) and lastly (also beta) that the borg also have meet the changlings before however apparently a very painful process but the founders can actually squeeze out the nanites and can’t be assimilated (again that the book beta and I don’t know all of the story on that).
Has anyone considered that the race that made Armus was the Founders? When you think about it, it makes sense and fits with their emotionless existence.
Armus vs the link. A very scary thought if armus infected the founders with its hate, no telling what they would be capable of .
@@bri55118 as if the founders aren't filled with enough hâte already
DS9 provided so much needed lore to the Trek universe. The whole religious aspect of the plot arc was annoying but everything from gorn to the ferengi to the trill, dominion, and founders. So much lore I loved it.
The religious aspect for me mirrors and mirrored the Christo-fascists of the US.
It would have been nice if the ST:TNG episode "The Chase" was included. You could draw some interesting conclusions from it.
I see also a parallel with the LCL and the AT-field in Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Could you do one about the Ocampa?
odo's punishment was not permanent the founders changed him back because they thought it was too cruel for Odo to be a solid
The founders didn't change Odo back. A "young" or proto changeling that was dying fused itself to him, and thus restored him to a shape shifter.
Wonder if the changelings are at all related to the silver fluid from voyager. I felt so bad for them when they’re final episode came (voyager „clones“) 🤔😔
Can you make a Cultural Index video about the Scarrans or any other alien species from Farscape?
Anyone mention how they can travel through space at warp speed?
I don't think Odo could change the Founders but I do think they could change him, what a version of him did in Children of Time shows how ruthless and selfish he can be.
I've always been curious about whatever became of the other 99.
We've met 1 possibly 2 of them. Laas and the infant Odo tried to raise while he was locked in a solid form (as it was dying it merged with Odo restoring his shapeshifting)
J. Buick don't you mean 97? We know what became of two of them. One of them was the sick baby changeling who gave Odo back his ability to shape shift and the other was Las, and we know what became of him too, at least up until the point when he said goodbye to Odo. That leaves only 97 infant changelings and accounted for.
Odo was security chief on DS9 until he returned to his people to cure them of a disease as a condition of the Dominion's surrender to the Federation-Klingon-Romulon alliance.
Lass was wondering around the Galaxy for a few hundred years after living with humanoids, looking for others of his kind until he met Odo, after Odo explained some things to him, he eventually went out in search of the others within the 100 to form a new link (one that would not conquer or interact with humanoids). Since he linked with Odo, while Odo was asymptomatic with the disease, Lass may also be infected and may or may not be symptomatic.
Another infant changeling was exposed to a particularly deadly form of radiation to it, when it was found as sold to Quark, who then sold it to Odo. Bashir tried to cure and he initially appeared to have succeeded. Odo took it upon himself to raise this infant changeling (even though at this point in time Odo was locked into a humanoid form). Unfortunately the infant changeling was more sick than Bashir realized and was once again dying with nothing that could be done to save it, so as Odo was by its side as it was dying it integrated itself into Odo restoring Odo's ability to shapeshift.
The other 97 were launched into the galaxy in all directions from a rouge planet without a star in a far corner of the Gamma quadrant that the Changelings lived on, some of which may still be in a dormant state, others with various experiences, etc... all programed genetically to eventually find their way back to the Great Link over the course of many centuries.
Couldn't it be that the Founders are the same people that Salia in The Dauphin (TNG) is supposed to be leading - that the character we know as the Female Changeling is in fact Salia from that episode? After all, Salia and her guardian are remarkably secretive about the culture they come from, and they adopt human form for rhw convencience of the race transporting them there. It is said several times that Salia is to be a "leader" in the sense of a queen or a President or something like that, but Salia herself explain that "there is no word in your language that explains what I am going to be". Couldn't that mean that rather than being a "leader", she is meant to give up her very individuality (merge with her "subjects") in order to take up her position.
huh...first reference that came to mind at the start of this video was Sergeant Schlock.
further into the video I realized that the founders would absolutely ABHOR Carbosillicate Amorphs rather than just find them odd.
amorphs on the other hand seem predisposed to like pretty much everything and everyone, even stuff trying to kill them, most likely a side-effect/leftover from their origin...not sure how spoilery that'd be to mention since it's really not important to the story, just dropping some forshadowing/worldbuilding way to early.
important to note that while an amorph has almost no bias and pretty much automatically likes new things they also have no predisposition towards any form of morality or even basic biological imperatives, they are childlike, engaging, genuinely interested in you, almost universally endearing, and yet one of the single most *alien* creatures I have ever seen in any work of fiction both in-setting and from a reader's perspective.
basically, they have never in any way cared about any of the shaping factors that have molded every other living thing in existence and by extension every subsequent form of AI. they didn't come into being with any regard to selection pressures and simply haven't died off yet as a result by merit of already being good for just about anything life can throw at them.
I remember someone at work looked like these people.
Is Armus the abandoned child of the Changlings?
Interesting idea. Landed somewhere horrifying and grew to fit
Awsome sub power
Yes!! A new index!
Nice video!
Cultural index of the Alliance in firefly next? pls
Even in the marvel universe omung mutants shape shifters aren't trusted
I am curious about a few things that don't quite add up. I understand that certain concepts had to be assumed, contrived, or just because as a plot devise. The producers, props people, and writers had to work with reality unlike a cartoon.
1) As the type of life forms they are, how and why would the Founders garner intelligence to construct genetic manipulation?
2) When they sent just a handful of Changelings to Starfleet Headqurters and one to the Klingon High Command, why didn't they send hundreds? Had they done so, they could have completely assured themselves of victory. Also send some to the other powers (Romulans, Cardssians, etc.) I would include almost any planet to to make sure that planet fell in line
3) Why would the Founders send 100 out to explore. This number is human (I realize most of the other civilizations all were human form with ten fingers) However, this number means nothing to them
4) How could solids have tormented/attacked/etc. Changelings? If a Changeling could assume any form, it would be easy for it to escape. e.g. change into a local tree, a rock, or a meteor if you're in space
5) If I were to be one of the Founders, I would have just laid a siege at the wormhole. You come in, you ain't getting out or even surviving.
6) Why did the female Changeling had to assume human form? If you want to strike fear into Earthlings, don't look like my grandma!
7) I understand Odo's inability to mimic a human face due to lack of experience, but why did the female (before the affliction) also did not have a fully formed face? The other Changelings did when they mimicked Adm. Leyton, O'Brien, and Martok
8) When punishing Odo, why have him look human? Now he can stay with the beings he was with before. Change him into a solid that is much more limited, like a worm, a tree, or a paramecium. It was supposed to be a punishment. Making him solid wasn't enough.
That's it for now, but there are a few more
Have the founders ever met the Borg?
You would think that in the Dominion's long history in the Gamma quadrant they would have encountered at least a cube or two.
Apparently they were able to coexist. I'm suprised they never made any attempt to address that on DS9.
@Amber Hoke Thanks. Maybe the Borg never made it to the Gamma quadrant. Just something I always wondered about. Although with that transwarp hub they destoryed in the final episode of Voyager, you would think the Borg would have been just about everywhere.
Obviously it would be difficult to assimilate a changling. But they had a little bit in common with the Borg. The founders also wanted to impose order on chaos, and they had their own organic collective (the great link).
Perhaps the Borg and the Dominion were aware of each other and had a non aggression pact, or maybe the Borg simply weren't willing to fight all the Jem'Hadar.
Have y’all done the jem hadar vid yet
I'd imagine their "great link" is something like a near infinite constructed reality when combined like that. That much processing power could generate more exploration and entertainment unbound by physics than reality. The founders just want to make sure the solid world outside their imagination playground universe doesn't stop the party so they crush the solid world under heel.
they were space faring? they had ships and shipyards of their own?? i always assumed they just waited for some race to come to them, then stole their ships or just snuck aboard
I look forward to a Vorta cultural index
interesting, but it lacks the writers' insights into what they were thinking when they created the Founders. Why is that?
these things are usually written in-character
I was wondering if you can investigate a theory I have. The Theory have we seen a Changeling before DS9. It is in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country there a Chameloids. However, we learn from Odo that he didn't know where he came from and that the founders send out their young and those Changelings eventually return. It possible that some Changelings were discovered by other races like the Klingons and were called Chameloids. So you have a group of shapeshifters who are so rare and unknown that Bones thought they were Myths. Given a difference in CGI between the Movie and DS9 Show could explain why they don't appear 100% the same. Star Trek has changed species appearances between shows before (example Klingons). The shifting between forms in both the Changelings and the Chameloids appears fluid. Other Star Trek Shapeshifters are more energy or use mental manipulation.
I read about The Founders in the Star Trek Visual Dictionary.
Same.
does he have the Breen ?
Domion vs. Borg who would win?