Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | R+L=Aegon| The Prince that was Promised | New and Improved Edition
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2017
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Rhaegar + Lyanna = Aegon/Young Griff- New and Improved Edition of our 3 part Prince that was Promised Series.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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For those referencing The Rolling Stones article,
"On the parentage of Jon Snow:
Interviewer : Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow's mother was, which is one of the earliest - and seemingly one of the central - mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.
GRRM : I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they'd read the text.
Interviewer : Did they get it right?
GRRM : They answered correctly.
Interviewer : Some readers, I think, would also ask who Jon Snow's father truly is, even though Jon was always claimed to be Ned Stark's bastard son.
GRRM : [Martin smiles] On this I shall not speak. I shall maintain my enigmatic silence, until I get to it in the books."
I think it is ambiguous. Correctly answering an interview question just means giving the answer that gets you the job. This does not establish that the direction of the show will be the same as the books. I'm not stating an opinion one way or another, just pointing out that this isn't evidence like people are claiming it is.
It's also worth noting that this all happened years before A Dance of Dragons came out in 2011, so D&D would have no way of knowing about the Young Griff/Aegon reveal, or the Fisherman's Daughter. The only other named candidates in the reading up til then were Wylla and Ashara Dayne. Wylla for obvious reasons can be dismissed but Ashara Dayne does get brought up as possibly being Jon's Mom in AGOT's and ASOS's , so if GRRM wanted to know if they remembered Ashara Dayne being brought up briefly in a Catelyn chapter in AGOT's and an Arya chapter in ASOS's then Bravo! D&D did their homework back then... but to solve a mystery so soon in the story and keep bringing up another suspect to be Jon's mom could either be GRRM just having fun at our expense (which can't be ruled out) or perhaps D&D guessed Lyanna by putting the clues together and coming up with the one suspect never named in the text as possibly being Jon's mom. So in conclusion, yes, I believe R+L=J more than N+A=J, but if I'm proven wrong in TWOW or ADOS, so be it.
@@Knight860 R+L=D
Jon and Aegon are the same character in the show. Therefore D&D where correct no matter which parentage they gave Jon in the show....from a certain point of view.
I think they just made a conscious decision to merge young griff into jon so they wouldn't have to tell young griff's story, kind of like how they put sansa in jeyne pool's place. both nonsensical writing choices that served only to make the story shorter so they could get on with their lives.
Answering Correctly is not the same as being right, could be that D&D got it wrong and that’s why George let them make the show because he knew the biggest secret in the books will be safe.
I don't know if I fully believe it all but I have to say N+A=J is waaaay more interesting than R+L=J
N+A doesn't have a strong impact on the story as R+L does
Mohammed Galal
On the show . But in the books it does. The show barely mentions Ashara. The logical choice for the show since the John Connington story was scraped is r+l=j.
Mohammed Galal sure it does. Being half Dayne, plus LC of the Nights watch, it screams he's going to be the sword of the morning to weild dawn. As Ned's true born son he could be the king in the north but the books will have to rationalize breaking his vows to the watch.
R+L=J screams "red herring".
I like N+A=J much more interesting because Jon has zero Targaryen hints but Dayne hints fits much better for who he is as a person. And I enjoy R+L=A because it makes all the Rhaegar and Aegon parallels much more appropriate.
The Order of the Green Hand is definitely one of my favorite theorist in the fandom. They have very well made videos and their theories (especially the Kingsguard theory) is one of my favorite theories now. Keep up the good work guys!
Thank you Rypht
Do you think that they named Jon Snow Aegon in the TV Show as he might be a mash up between the two characters from the books? As soon as they revealed it I thought - damn The Order of the Green Hand were right! Just like they have merged other characters before Jorah and Connington for example.
I've thought this before I also think Jon will stay dead in the book someone else will take over the north storyline and aegon will meet Danny and they will fall in love
@@mannylopez8933 do you really think the show and book will diverge that much sounds unlikely
@@jayisbored George rr Martin himself has said that there's no guarantee that Jon will come back also the show has diverged from the books many times I mean dorne
@@mannylopez8933 dorn is filler and has nothing to do with the core of the story
Jon is likely to come back. Jon's survival to the end of the story has been planned from the beginning, as stated by GRRM himself. And while I can definitely see him dying in the end, it makes at least as much sense for him to survive and continue on the Stark line. Story-wise, Jon is still very necessary, and with Jon (probably) warging into Ghost at the end, and with Ghost's name being Ghost, it seems like GRRM's put a lot of thought into how Jon would survive.
I've been trying to figure out what's the deal with Young Griff since I first read A Dance. With Quath telling Dany about the "Murmers Dragon" it's almost like George wants you to question Young Griff being a dragon. But like you pointed out, maybe he is a dragon, just pretending to be another one. That answers a lot of questions I had about Aegon. It fits into N + A = J, R + L = A, and the murmers dragon. I knew I was missing pieces and you filled in the gaps that I missed.
Thank you...most people who comment on these videos just yell at us and tell us we're illiterate
I see a lot of people trolling in the comments, but I always get excited when I see a new video from The Order of the Green Hand.
I think Young Griff is the "Mumer's Dragon" because he is actually a blackfyre
Quaith could also just be trying to sow distrust between the two. I dont believe a word out of her mouth
@@layla8830 Yeah, is she a "good" or "bad" influence? I know there are only grey characters in GRRM's world, but what the f*ck is Quaithe's deal?
Danerys Targaryen = Azor Ahai
Jon Snow = Sword Of The Morning
Young Griff = Prince That Was Promised.
@Marcus Anark Azor ahai and the promised prince are the same
Mark Cattigan wrong the prince that was promised is said to come from the Jaehaerys Targaryen line which is why he had the mad king Aerys marry his sister while Azor Ahai is the name of the last hero who fought in the long night thousands years ago
@@user-mr1zy4nu7l oh man i really hope martin finishes it soon.or These mysteries will haunt me even in death😖
It makes sense on many levels, people need to stop using the show as proof of anything, for one the show doesn't even feature Young Griff/Aegon. We know the show likes to tie things together, such as giving Jon Snow Stannis's story arc of trying to rally Northern Lords to his cause against the Boltons.
Or having some Bolton man (Locke) do the job of the Brave Companions with regard to Jamie and his lost hand. So I could absolutely see them using R+L=J on the show because it wouldn't have made sense for N+A on the show, show watchers only know one Dayne. It's not Ashara, and I can't see George giving the game away like this, no I absolutely believe you are on to something.
So basically fAegon thinks he’s the heir to the Seven Kingdoms when in reality he’s actually a bastard while Jon Snow thinks he’s a bastard when in reality he’s the true heir to the North, is that about right? That actually is a far better twist than R+L=J.
If Griff is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. The problem is that Dany will arrive soon and she may kill him for being well loved by the Westerosi.
Jon would be the rightful King of the North if he is the firstborn son of Ned and Ashara, yes.
that depends on whether Rhaegar married Lyanna or just raped her and left her in the tower of joy. Seeing as he probably subscribed to the Faith of the Seven, and was already married to Ellia in the Sept, I doubt he could have married Lyanna because every priest and priestess out there would instantly recognize him. Besides, even if Aegon is technically a bastard, that does not mean he couldn't be the Prince that was promised. As we've seen in the books, only R'hlor seems to be a real God, as well as the Great Other. Old Gods are questionable(unless you call Bloodraven a God) and Seven are definitely not real. So the whole 'bastards are lesser than trueborn children' is a load of bullcrap, and whether a child is born in or out of marriage is completely irrelevant.
@@cristiansaucedo4707 even if he Lyana and Rhaegars son he will be bastard
Nice to see you still thrashing the R+L=J theory. XD
R+L=J is too simple for GRRM.
Heather D I don’t think so. The clues had been cleverly put and set up. George has already confirmed in his Not A Blog site that Jon is indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son.
Dane Mitch Truly?
@Dave MMA There is none. He never said something like that.
True tho
Dane Mitch Link?
The illustration of Rhaegar with the flowing hair and the smirky smile always reminds me of Lucius Malfoy 😞
Just realised looking at his mouth that he isn't smirking. It just kind of looks like it at a glance. But still, Lucius.
Aegon sounds an awful lot like stannis when it says he knows being king is his duty
except Aegon has charisma
I love Aegon so much, and he is so perfect I have no doubt he would have a tragic story. But you guys made me question everything, I really love that about your videos and I agree with most of it! I always argue with people about Aegon being fake, though I understand why they think that, but I focus on Varys speech which is one of my favorite parts of book 5, like, why on earth would Varys lie to a dying Kevan Lannister if Aegon is just the son of Illyrio? Makes no sense at all! You guys have the right thought in this! Lovely video!
Thank you so much Ana...hope things are getting better down there...there hasn't been anything on the news lately, which usually is a good sign...the news never reports on anything good
Lol. I understand. The trolls are out there!
I've had this very debate with others, with this exact stance myself. I don't think Aegon's fake either at least in terms of who is Father is. The deception of who is Mother is does make the story juicy! (Though I do feel awful for Elia =[)
Will stannis win the battle of ice. I hope he does. We need him. THE MANNIS
yes
The Order of the Green Hand
From what I can paste together without rereading aDwD the KarlStarks will pull a double turncloak on Roose, after Alyse is married to the Then (yuk) and is names Lady of Karhold..Maybe..
Nothing will Stannis his way
Young Griff says he dyes his hair blue in honor of his Tyroshi mother, could this be a reference to Rohanne of Tyrosh, wive to Daemon Blackfyre, and maternal ancester to all Blackfyres?
One big thing with the prince that was promised: at the time that prophecy was made, Valyria was ruled by Lords not Kings. It wasn’t until the conquest that any Valyrian claimed to be royalty. More likely are the Starks, descendants of the First Men who fought against the Long Night the first time and ruled as Kings of Winter for 8000 years. Valyria was a nonentity in this first fight, so Valyrian are not essential to the return of Azor Ahai nor is Valyrian steel despite its utility. Even if Young Griff is Lyanna’s son, he lays claim to royal title through his Targaryen heritage making him less likely than Jon Snow to be the Prince that was Promised.
I've said that a lot. I've also said that any royal family becomes narcissistic, and this prophecy would have appealed to that aspect of the Targaryens. I've also wondered whether it's not wishful thinking on some people's part. Melisandre for one. The version of the prophecy she believes has quite obviously been culled from elsewhere and churched up to make her faith central to it. We see this all the time in our world, especially with the stories in the Bible. Most of the stories in the Old Testament are altered versions of stories from other religions.
After GRR Martin finishes ASOIAF I’m looking forward to reading “Tales of Duck and Griff”
It's probable that Duck and Griff may happen before tWoW and aDoS at this point...
@@deactivated18A Dream of Spring will stay what it already is… a dream. But Winter is coming!
This theory explains why haldon halfmaster and septa lemore don't tell on aegon to qyburn or the citadel for that matter and gives them an identity unlike the brightfyre,blackfyre,faegon theories
I've been seeing and loving this improved editions. 👌🏼Thank you guys! As always, excelent work and food for the brain! Keep on ❤️
Simply amazing. You guys just keep coming with quality content that leaves the viewer reeling with all the complexities George has created in his world of ice and fire. 💜💜 I've said it once and I'll say it again, you guys are the BEST ASOIAF channel in existence!!
Thanks for mentioning the annotated iBooks; they are absolutely worth buying. Now that the show has "confirmed" RLJ, did the show-runners answer George's question of Jon's parentage correctly? I think George is either executing an epic troll on D&D, or they agreed to do RLJ so as not to spoil the books. I see no other possibilities. Great vid as always!
+PBR Streetgang long time no chat. Good to see you in here. We’re going to do a live q&a tomorrow night
Looks like I got home in time! Believe me, I eagerly anticipate every notification. There are so many new subs to the channel that usually someone has beat me to whatever I was going to post :) Congrats on 36K - you have the best ASOIAF channel on UA-cam. See you in a bit!
thank you so much...we ended up having a bit of a situation to deal with...the live stream is going on tomorrow now
Answering correctly is not the same as being right, D&D could very well have been wrong and that’s why George let them make the show because he knew they wouldn’t spoil his biggest secret.
Damn it man!!! You guys got me second guessing "what I thought I knew"...again. 😉 I felt pretty confident that fAegon was a Blackfyre (sp?) for sure & and a direct relative to Varys who goes out of his way to hide who he truly is, while plotting to get revenge for his family...I've stated before my desire to reread the books now it's a must. Great job as usual!
Yesssss! Been waiting all week for you guys.
Y'all are the best in the game. Thank you for all the hard work
Thank you for watching
You guys do such a great job of laying out the evidence and the path to take to get to your conclusions. Though it is an “update “ it is like all of your work excellent. I applaud you and will continue to be a fan.
Thanks Steve
I want go home sick from work just watch this video, keep up the great work guys.
I have recently found your channel and I have to say, that you made some really quality content. Keep up the good work!
Thank you
These last several videos updating your older theories have been terrific!!
thank you...we were kind of embarrassed that the theories people seem to know us best for were those terribly made videos we made when we first started and had no clue what we were doing
I have been waiting on this all weekend lol.
I've been waiting for this one!
loving the ....new update vids ,they've brought a new life so excited for this rewatch !!thanks guys
i always love watching your videos for historical clairvoyance and the in depth word analysis. i truly believe that when grrm was talking about the true story in asoif and only a handful of people knowing the difference between dan and dave’s story, he was mentioning the insight you guys bring!
also please make more powers of the old videos! i like conjectures founded when looking at Garth and his seed.
we will be coming back around to the Old Powers are Waking series in the next month or so...we have a few other videos we want to make first...we want to do one about the Andals...one about the Maesters and one about the Rhoynar first
The Order of the Green Hand that sounds great, don’t want to give to much away but will you discuss lady forlorn more?
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand why would a maester that worked to bring down the targaryen family put their bastard back on the throne?! Especially with a grand maester for a father? makes no sense.
I honestly doubt that the hightowers just had a change of heart.
I love you guys' content so much i just made a patreon and patreoned yall.
Thank you so much
I was thinking it really makes a lot of sense that Aegon is from Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned thinks of broken promises to Lyanna. Of course, if Jon is Lyanna's son, then Ned didn't need to think about broken promises, Ned successfully protected Jon. Whatever the promise, Ned thinks it failed and that's why the promise haunted him for 15 years, Aegon was left out of Ned's sight and he had to send him away, so it would be a broken promise. What do you think?
You're forgetting two things.... what is protection and "out of sight, out of mind"
If R+L=A, the argument could be made that by placing Aegon into the care of a member of the Kingsguard, a healthy woman he loved and trusted to the point he still gets angry if somebody speaks of even remotely negatively about and his childhood maester, that Aegon was better protected.
Especially when you consider the rumors that popped up when Ned Stark of ALL people popping up with a baby. Arya was repeatedly mocked because everybody could tell she was the only one of Catlyn's children that looked more Stark than Tully. And since you never really know what a newborn will look like as it grows, what would have happened if the baby took on more Targaryan features? What would have happened if the wet nurse he had to bring with them got drunk and spilled the truth?
Also Aegon was out of sight. Jon was placed into sight, with Ned screaming, "hey.... everybody look at MY bastard..... and no I won't tell a single soul about his Mom."
So glad to be catching back up on your videos . Great as always!
there's a new one coming this afternoon
Great catch with Duck and Egg. It's such a cheeky way to write a clue that Aegon is really Aegon.
Some portion of the readers will tend to match up the similarities and allusions to Dunk and Egg with Dunk and Egg and then interpret them as clues that Duck mirrors Dunk, and then interpret _that_ as a clue that Aegon V mirrors Aegon VI, because the Dunk and Egg story pairs those two characters together inseparably. So it's a clue by association to a clue. In context of that inseparability, the Dunk-to-Duck mirrors demand an Egg-to-Egg mirror in order to preserve the inseparability of the two characters Dunk and Egg. But it should be noted that it's a narrative inseparability, not a literal in-story inseparability. There's no rule in the story that Dunk and Egg can't separate. It's just that they share the unofficial title of the novellas and approximately every page within it.
So the narrative inseparability of Dunk and Egg is the guiding principle of the whole set of clues.
A different portion of the readers will tend not to match up the similarities and allusions to Dunk and Egg. Additionally, they'll tend not to interpret them as clues of Aegon's identity, not even when those similarities and allusions are presented to them by the other readers. And the reason is because this portion of readers doesn't grok the guiding principle of Dunk and Egg's narrative inseparability. The story lacking an in-story reason or rule that Dunk and Egg can't separate, these readers don't understand why the other portion of readers are applying that principle as though the unofficial title of the novellas or the fact of Dunk and Egg being together throughout the whole thing have any bearing on what's happening in a completely different scene in a completely different book with completely different characters. These readers exhibit a deeply ingrained blindness to metatextuality - the ways the story is referring to the reader and the real world. On balance, the other readers exhibit a tendency to read too much metatextuality into the story, straying too far too fast from the literal words in the book and their literal meanings.
I'm pretty convinced after watching this and your other videos on the subject. Far more interesting too, I agree. I think the show just combined Jon's and (f)Aegon's plotlines, as evidenced by the fact that a) Jon's given name in the show was Aegon, which makes no sense if Rhaegar already had a son named Aegon, and b) Jon apparently dies right around the same time that Aegon hits the shores of Westeros. My guess is that whatever happens to Jon will be entirely different and new (a la Stoneheart, hopefully involving Ghost), and Aegon will take over some of the role Jon did in the later seasons. This is similar to how they combined Gendry and Edric Storm in the show. Gendry finished his "role" in Arya's story in ACOK, then takes on Edric's role at Dragonstone. Or how they gave the grayscale to Jorah instead of Griff. Everything in the show is simpler.... even though they had to create the most convoluted and hole-ridden plot to make up for it.
Excellent stuff, as always.
Very compelling evidence you have that this is R+L's son, and i love how you guys come around/about this stuff. Very thought-provoking, which is what is needed in this kind of thing. And the parallels between Aegon V and Aegon VI are so numerous to be more than uncanny happenstance.
Combine that with George's crafty "baby-swapping" references, and history repeating itself so often, i can't help but feel you're correct in adding up all this supposed foreshadowing.
There's only one or two small things niggling at me that prevent me from accepting this theory of yours as readily as i do all the others (even though they are all one connected theory really, narritively speaking)....
Illyrio talks of "debts of blood". And the Golden Company are intrinsically and ancestrally linked to the Blackfyres. The idea they would drop everything (having never broken a contract) and pleedge unquestioning allegiance to a Targaryen of all things? Unthinkable.
The idea that they would have unquestioning, unflinching support; dropping all and tarnishing their good name and reputation, in support of a Blackfyre? Now that is far more believeable.
So the question now lies: "How can we reconcile the two?"
Maybe they've lied to the Golden Company in saying he is indeed a Blackfyre truly, that he is a "mummer's dragon?"
I'm sure the Order of the Green Hand will work it out..... (",)
sorry for the delayed response...I meant to come back to it when you posted but got so many comments that day I forgot to come back to it...I think Illyrio is a liar...the Golden Company broke their contract with Myr, marched to Volantis to meet up with Dany and Aegon, but when they found out Dany wasn't coming, they were going to leave if Aegon didn't make that great speech...if they were supporting him because he was a Blackfyre, Dany not coming shouldn't have had that effect
Hmm, Young Griff has a hot temper. Case in point, kicking over the game board and table when Tyrion admitted he tricked the boy.
You know who else had a hot temper? Lyanna. She poured wine on her brother when he teased her for crying over Rhaegar’s harp playing.
I found your channel about a week ago, and now I'm hooked. Everyone does show theories, but most of them are boring because the show leaves so much of "the good stuff" out! I have to say your book theories are thoroughly engrossing! Looking forward to going back to your older videos and getting the full picture you guys are laying out for us. Keep it up!
Thank you Brittany. Our theories tend to build off each other. I created a recommended order to view playlist if you’re interested
Thanks! I will check it out!
Wow... you guys are just awesome !!!! Wonderful video.
thank you so much
I've been thoroughly watching your videos, and I'm SO hooked on your theories...
Teora Toland dreams of dagrons dancing and destructing everything at their passing. Is that how Dany will become the ultimate villain in our story?
You guys are great. Please keep doing thyis, and I can't wait for WoW comes out ♥
I see the dancing dragons in Teora's green dream as most likely being her bringing fire and blood with her when she comes to take Westeros or possibly a battle between her dragons and an ice dragon
AAAARRRRHGHHH YAAAAAAAASSSSSS SO EXCITED! If only I could post a celebratory gif to show my love for this a new OOtGH video :(
You guys are 100% on it. Took a lot of homework! Great job.
Thank you
Probably unrelated but I find interesting. The very first line of description for Varys has him described as being, "as bald as an egg." I've wondered if that was deliberate on GRRM's part.
I absolutely love your name....we think Varys is Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar's son or grandson
The Order of the Green Hand for real? I thought Bloodraven was inside a tree up North?
If that were the case I'd have to wonder if Varys is in contact with Bloodraven at all, and if that in any way contributes to his knowledge base.
Thank you, when I adopted the name I shipped Ned+Ashara (I still do), but since have come to think Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara.
Ned very much being in love with Ashara, and being very sullen to his last days over the fact she, and his brother hooked up. Him taking a purple eyed baby from the tower of joy to Ashara (personally undecided on if that baby will be Aegon VI or Dany, maybe both, but I definitely think at least one), and saying he'll take her son north. Her agreeing but worrying about the Tully's if they knew Brandon had a noble born son so Ned promises he'd fudge the date of Jon's birth a bit, and raise him as his own bastard so that Ashara can take the Targ child(ren) into her care.
Something I can't place is why Ashara wouldn't just raise the child(ren) as a Dayne(s). Whatever that reason is, on the way back north Ned escorts Ashara with the child(ren) to King's Landing where Varys takes them into his care. From there I think the known plot kicks in with Dany ending up in Dorne ("Braavos"), and Aegon staying with Ashara and eventually being taken to Griff.
But who knows apart from George, he's written the thing so vague that any of a dozen different scenarios could work out.
"my little birds"
Christopher Willmon...there are an uncanny number of parallels between the two of them (Varys and BR)...both are referred to as sorcerers more than once, both use "little birds", Varys was born in Lys which is where Shiera likely went when she left Westeros, they both have been quoted as saying that they serve the realm, and both seem determined to place the Prince that was Promised on the Throne
Man, y'all make me question everything I believe about Young Griff!! I always thought he was Varys nephew, Illryio's son. A Blackfyre.
Gaming With A White Guy you listen to Preston
Dustin Smith I listen to almost every one but the clues I read led to me to that conclusion.
mike deck Actually..The Woman "The Cheese Monger" married had all of the qualities. What if he looks like his mother? Cersei said Waters looked like Rhaegar.
Illyrio cares about this boy. Loves this boy. To me, it's either this or that. I'm actually torn because damn, Green Hand makes a hell of a case..... But there's reasonable doubt. Because I can absolutely make a strong case that he's Vary's nephew. And a Blackfyre through the female line.
The books clearly give the impression that whomever Faegon is, he's too young to be Rhaegar's son. Its what he's been led to believe, most likely by Illaryio and perhaps Serra, but again, the books definitely bring into equation that he's simply too young to be an offspring of Rhaegar.
that would be too simply for GRRM
i love your videos, order of the green hands. Please do one explaining to us about all the prophecies that came up all throughout the books and/ or show. thankyou you guys are the best.
coming back for my second listen through and making sure i hit that like button
Unparalleled theory crafting from my favorite Lord and Lady! The realm thanks you ❤️👍👍🔥🐉🔥🐉🔥🐉
thank you so much....your name literally made me laugh out loud
Heads up, in the final graphic detailing George's comment about Kings, in the final sentence, the word should be "Precious" not "previous" I think. Obviously not really important - just letting you know. Am loving the revamped series though
Your analysis is very interesting and smart. You deserve much more subscribers :)
thank you so much...hopefully it'll come
great stuff as always
thank you Ceasar
It would be interesting to see what Cersei will think if/when she see's Aegon for the first time. it could be a good way for GRRM to clarify he isn't fake. She could recall how handsome Rhaegar was and how similar they look ect.
I swear everytime you put up that picture in 6:42 I think of Lucius Malfoy.
Subscribed. You have great content and it's interesting that the show has a shortened story line and history of combining characters. Rather than bring in this entire Aegon character arc they combined Aegon and Jon. The scene of Lyanna giving birth in the ToJ many say she says "Aegon" which could be D+D giving a nod to the book story line while understanding their limits. You're the first channel to bring up N+A=J that I've seen and I love the theory
thank you so much
I love that George must play chess or at least be somewhat familiar with it, because "bringing your Queen out too early" is one of the things chess teachers always caution against, and the Dragon is the obvious Cyvasse equivalent for the Queen
Damn that last part gave me chills
I had not considered the question of "if this is Doran Martell's nephew, why not bring the secretive genius in on the plan?" Once again y'all, thank you for thinking of things I didn't 😁
Great channel. Up there with my favorites. Ideas of Ice and Fire, and Preston Jacobs (You all should get together ;D) to name a couple. As well as a few others who don't always go into as much depth (but do sometimes). This is a GREAT theory and I feel falls more in line with GRRM. Keep up the amazing videos.
PS: I know you've been on Ideas' livestreams. That's how I discovered this channel.
Thank you so much...Quinn is a great guy...don't think Preston would be interested in talking to us...we disagree with him on just about every aspect of the story except the Maesters being sketchy but don't even agree with him on why they are sketchy...I would love to debate him
Just finished work and wanted to smoke some herb to relax, however I just checked notifs and this was on. And now I have to wait to smoke, I dont know whether I'm happy about that or not. You're like a song of ice and fire, bloody complicate my heart and brain.
if you've seen the old playlist, you might be able to get away with smoking before you watch
hahahaha i want to say I agree, but I actually still enjoyed them videos lmao
Well I find this theory pretty compelling, I just have one BIG problem with it : the golden company. It is tied to the BlackFyre lineage so why would they help a legit Targaryen heir after having spent decades fighting against them ?
Why would these guys care who brings them home? Their great great great grandfathers fought for Daemon. This is further underscored by the fact that most of the officers wanted to go east to help Dany when they found out that she wasn’t headed in their direction and was on the verge of war
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Well not only their great great great grandfathers, but their grandfathers and fathers too probably... Tywin and Barristan were fighting in the war of the ninepenny kings so it can be assumed that the captains of the golden company fought against the Targaryen too. I understand your argument, but this company was founded to support the Blackfyre pretenders against the Targaryen, I find it a little hard to believe that they can forget centuries of hate and mistrust just so they can get home. To me it would be like Shi'a converting to Sunni Islam just to be able to return to Mecca.
Edit : Also if we follow your train of thoughts, why would they want to return home ? Their great great great grandfathers may have been westerosi, but most of them were born sellswords, it's not that certain they have ties to westeros anymore. Most of them never knew anything else than being a sellsword of the Golden Company. If you add the fact that they broke one of their contract to support young Griff, it really doesn't make that much sense unless he is a BlackFyre.
Again, I find the theory very compelling, it does explain a lot of things, but the golden company involvment really does bugger me.
Well I mean if he’s the son of L he too is technically a bastard son like the black fires whom started the golden company
@@ericdupuis8819 The scale is weighted against fAegon being an actual Targaryen, UNLESS Illyrio is actually a legitimate Brightflame. That would explain an awful lot. Make Saera a Blackfyre and kin to Varys, and the entire story makes sense. Aegon being who he thinks he is makes zero sense, R+L=A has some rather large holes. I'd need a solid explanation of why Ashara would trust Varys at all, and why Varys would work with Rhaegar's son when he worked so hard to get rid of Rhaegar before the Rebellion. Varys is evil in the books, to point of ripping out slave children's tongues. He does not care about the people at all. D and D really whitewashed the man.
Watching this great video for the 3rd time 😂, but the thing that still troubles me is that you mentioned "Young Griff dyes his hair blue in memories of his mother." How can he know that his mother was Lyanna when even JonCon has no idea?
we don't think Aegon knows...heck we're pretty sure JonCon doesn't know, and they used Ashara to bring Aegon to him to help sell the idea that Aegon is his older half brother...we just think George put it there on purpose
The battle of the bells. Great catch, you guys
Busy with med school exam studying but this will be the best of short study breaks.
Absolutely fantastic. I feel you could actually publish your own theories. Because I'm not PC I would call it A Song of Ice and Fire for dummies AKA show Watchers
I like the ending or epilogue of dance. It was one of the biggest wtf moments in the book. I like the curve ball grr Martin gave us with young Griff, it gives added boost to a dragging plot. I hope the last two books are like the first 3 ,lots of action and plot twists with unexpected explanations.if this is all true then perhaps ned could still have comeback in the plot
if you had a chance to read the George quote we put at the end right after the epilogue quote, he almost used the exact same words to describe the perfect ruler that Varys used to describe Aegon
The Order of the Green Hand I noticed the quote, rheagar, breakspeare, daemon blackfyre,just to name a few of the would be kings with the goods. But how did it work out for them? Could we expect the same from Griff or even dany for that matter?
Got chills when you presented Tyrion saying "keep your dragon close" in this context. Since the dragon eggs were Ilyrio's gift to Dany, can we entertain the idea that young Griff has his own?
He might not have his own but I find it very likely that he will claim Rhaegal
I just noticed a little something and I don't know if it's a clue or happy accident, but the very first time the Stark song plays in the show, it's in the scene with Jon and Arya when he gives her needle. The second time is when Jon is saying goodbye to Bran.
I love ur videos! I hope ur right for Jon's sake, it would be better for him if he wasn't R&L's kid. Rhaegar was a scumbag; cheating on his wife (Did he even have the decency to tell her before he took off?), abandoning her and his children in the hands of his psychopathic murderous father, and possibly just used Lyanna to fulfill a vague prophecy he barely understood. Jon's got enough baggage.
Great video! You guys always convince me to drink the kool aid! Lol
Thank you...we don't think of it as kool aid...we think of it as logical
Wait. "[Aegon] does as he says he would. He goes west instead of East."
Mirri Maz Dur's prophesy -- when the sun rises in the West and sets in the East.
Sun = son.
When Rhaegar's son rises in the West and sets in the East, Dany's womb will quicken again."
Please tell me that ad placement was not a random act
I was listening in the shower, lettin' LG tell me all about Tyrion, and right as she is about to break to read a passage, -- "...Tyrion said" -- the ad kicked on! And it happened to have a female voice, only slightly different, so it took me a good 5 min to realize I wasn't listening to Lady Greenhand hahahaha
10/10, compelling evidence as always - and definitely refined from last time. good work! Your OCD is appreciated
"The devil's in the details"
we actually don't have control of the placement of ads...we set it up to allow UA-cam to do it for us because when we tried to pick the places for ads, they never actually played an ad
The Order of the Green Hand too bad, i remember some one complaining on your live stream i think about your ad placement so part of me was like "YES" haha
its a pain...they give you the option of picking the location of ad breaks, but their system seems to refuse to play any ads if you try to place them yourself
Hey guys, great video, but how do you explain all the Azor Ahai symbolism surrounding Jon? Like the dream in which he literally is fighting the Others with a burning sword, and slays Ygritte?
Or Dany's vision of a blue flower growing in a wall of ice? Or Quaithe mentioning the "mummer's dragon"?
Don't get me wrong, I'm still certain that the show merged Aegon and Jon together, and that N+A=J, but I sincerely don't know how to explain those points.
The first point can be explained by him being the heritage of the sword of the morning, a Dayne.
Dany herself is a mummer of a dragon because she neglects the dragon aspect of her personality. The videos on this channel about Dany really made me appreciate her character development and George‘s writing.
What was Dany‘s vision about? I don‘t remember.
Off pudding, but do you guys think we'll ever find out who built the black stone castles in westeros?? I'm guessing the same person/people who built the 5 forts. And maybe even asshai....
Off pudding? XD
Hey there, been a while since I got in here... the channel has grown I see! This is a great video btw, I love how you guys build up a theory in such a way that it doesn't go to point but to the facts that prove it so when you lay it all down you be like "f*ck, this is so right!" At least that's my reaction 😅. Anyways, I really loved it and I have a question that I've asked before actually but you guys haven't answered or did but me not watching the videos for a while prevented me from knowing. I bought the theory of Jon's and Aegon's since you guys first dropped it. The only part that didn't make sense is the timeline with Ned after the war. So do you guys believe that Lyanna was in Winterfell or in the tower of joy? Cause the timeline differs so much. If she was in the tower of joy why wasn't it mentioned that there was a baby with him when he went to give the sword back and a child with him when gave the horse back? Ofc if you believe it was Winterfell then the timeline destroys itself when it comes to the baby swapping and all. I think so. Please point that one out for me. Love you guys.
So well done.
Thank you
Just two questions about your opinion and theories:
A: Would Ashara/Septa Lemore be the only one to know that Young Griff is actually Lyanna's son then? Since her baby (Jon) was swapped for "Young Griff" by Ned? Or do you think everyone aboard the Shy Maid knows, except Connington? B: Maybe I've seen it in another video but I forgot: Who Haldon Halfmaester actually is?
Thanks for the awesome new videos!
I think Haldon (Walys Flowers the missing Winterfell maester from the end of Robert's Rebellion) and Lemore (Ashara) are the only ones on board who know...if you are interested in our reasoning for Haldon, check out our Ned and Varys video...we cover him in the first 5 minutes or so of that video
Thanks! I will rewatch it! :)
Love all your content, and theories and I have to say I think I agree on just about all of them (you make very compelling arguments) I've heard you mention a few times you've got a video coming out about your theory than Jon didn't actually die at the end of book 5, any idea how long until that one comes out?
its really circumstantial and might be too weak a theory to run with...we'll probably talk about it at some point in our live q&a tomorrow instead of devoting a video to it
"Another 'Westerosi Stud' " - hahaha, the intonation on that is hilarious
we do what we can
Well... You know how the show likes to conflate characters together...
Well, in the show Lyanna does name her son Aegon.
which really doesn't make sense for Jon to be Aegon...why would Rhaegar have two sons named Aegon? who does he think he is George Foreman?
You guys do realise the show calling Jon Aegon only makes your theory even more legitimate right? It's looking as if they called him that because they are merging Aegon/Young Griff and Jon Snow together in the show. And what do show Jon and book Aegon have in common? If your theory is accurate, they are both the sons of Rhaegar and Lyanna
The Order of the Green Hand Maybe the show intends a surprise, in which Lyanna's son is not Jon Snow but Aegon Targaryen, who turn out not to be one and the same. That's introducing a character late, but the let down would be classic GoT. Some random person walks in as the proper claimant, and Jon turns out to just be a bastard, whose mom spent her time raising this other. But Jon's actions will have been the same.
Jim Baker that would be amazing but the show doesn’t have the balls also bran has seen it’s fact that Jon is the son of R and L
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I'm pretty sure the show doesn't tell us the names of the children so maybe there is just one aegon
Great video, as always, and I truly believe that you either have some insider close to George or you have prophetic dreams, since you think like we all know George does and shape your theories(I even dare say legit canon at this point) around it. Anyway, since I'm fully and irevoccably sold on N+A=J and R+L=A, I wonder what you think about the theory of Barristan being the 'betrayer for reason of love'. It seems Barry the Badass is in love with Ashara, and seeing her again (since Lemore is definitely Ashara, no one can change my mind) could make him betray Daenerys in favor of Aegon. Do you think it's plausible? It ties in nicely with your Lemore=Ashara videos and could make Daenerys descent into madness, since there is no one she trusts like she does Barristan.
What a great video
Clarity that's what it's all about.
I like your theory, but I still think Aegon is a Blackfyre. And I think Tyrion knows it too, I think that's why he thought to himself, "he may well be a Targaryen after all." If you think about it as Tyrion knowing he's a Blackfyre, it brings new meaning to it. It also fully explains why The Golden Company is following a "Targaryen", because they know, or at least believe, he's really a Blackfyre. And it tells us who "the Mummers Dragon" is. Because Varys is a mummer, and Aegon would be his dragon.
Hello guys, greetings from Brazil, I've been watching your videos for quite some time now.
This theory about Aegon's true identity actually makes a lot of sense and is so much better than R+L=J, it does sound like GRRM.
Still, I have to wonder what is The Golden Company's motivation to follow a 14yo boy into war when he is precisely family to those they previously tried do overthrow so many times (please don't say they miss home).
And a player such as Varys, which you guys think is his ultimate motivation on this matter (other than "greater good for the realm" or restoring the Targaryen dinasty, because he tried do kill one of the two alive members, even though he warned Jorah before and could not have known he would save her)
And Illiryo, what is in it for him?
I would really apreciate your opinions on these questions, you have quickly become my favorite GOT channel. No one thinks outside of the box like you guys.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks a lot for all this awesome content.
Thank you so much....I personally don't see why any of these guys would care which brother their great great great grandfather chose to follow 100+ years ago...these guys want to go home...they also just marched like 500 miles to meet up with Dany who is undisputedly a Targaryen...Illyrio is going to get his own video at some point
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand it wasn't 100+ yrs ago. it was 20-40 years ago. Tywin, Barristan, Rickard Stark and Hoster Tully all fought in that war, if I'm not mistaken...A lot of the captains would have been around for that.
History repeats itself in the series. I'm predicting that Ageon will meet the same fate as his father. It just makes sense.
Is the green hand sigil of house gardener ??
It’s both the sigil of House Gardiner and the arms of the ancient thought to be extinct order of knights that they created
I have a question, my lord and my queen!! _Actually two questions __*__blushes_*
I hope N + A = J is true in the books. I'd love that! But it is known that Ashara has thrown herself in the sea, commiting suicide. I've wondered why she did that? Would she had done it because Eddard took Jon away from her? I had a theory she was still alive, but actually I don't believe that anymore..
*Edit:* Just finished your videos, you guys really think Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne? :O
My second question was about R+L=A (Young Griff). It is almost obvious that D&D are combining the Jon/Young Griff storyline in the show, which is why Jon's "real name" is Aegon. But it makes me wonder _(I was wondering the same about Jon/Aegon storyline in the show)._ Why would Rhaegar name his second son Aegon? He already had a son with Elia named Aegon. My guess is that Lyanna should have known about this. So I always believed that R+L=Daenerys _(I hope I don't sound weird :P)_ and Young Griff is the son Rhaella gave birth too _(And they were swapped in my imaginary theory-ish brain.)_ Anyway, I digress.. Why would Rhaegar name another son Aegon??
We're almost positive that Ashara faked her death...George has repeatedly stated that her body was never found...why do that unless he wants people to explore the possibility that she's still out there...we don't think Aegon is really his name...it is more likely that it is Aemon or something...we think they call him Aegon for Jon Connington's benefit...he might not have believed them if they told him that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, but he already knew that Rhaegar and Elia had a son so they passed him off as his older brother to ensure he would help them and had Ashara (one of Elias handmaids) deliver the boy to them to really help sell it to him
Huell Babineaux Maybe he didn't. Maybe Aegon was just the name they gave YG after he was swapped with Jon.
Rhaegar mos def would not name another son Aegon. D&D are just the laziest worst writers around
The Order of the Green Hand this is definitely making me agree with your take on things. What about the age difference on the other side. You said that no one would confuse a 15 with an 18 year old. When did the con start with the name. Even if it is 16 and 18, who would believe he was old enough to be the slain child Aegon. (Note: I believed it when I read it, because I didn’t have as good a grasp on the dates. Anyway, if you can explain how anyone would believe “Aemon” is Aegon, I would appreciate it
I would double check to see if Rhaegar's first son is named Aegon in the show canon. They always refer to him as the infant son in the show from what I remember. I dont make a habit out of defending the show and I wouldn't be surprised if D&D did something as lazy as giving both of Rhaegar's sons the same name or explaining that Rhaegar didn't see the harm in naming his second son Aegon Targaryen since he annulled his first marriage and madr his first son a bastard essentially giving him two Aegons but not two Aegon Targaryens.
I'm truly impressed. This undertaking you've taken on, is incredible. Thought provoking and by NO means boring. As a Sci-Fi freak(Fantasy if one must use the word.(I was a very YOUNG CONAN freak as well. So ye4s. I'm disappointed in myself for having let these books slip by me. All the while they were staring me in the face while I relentlessly bothered Librarian's for something new and cool to read. And I'm glad for the recommended viewing guide. I hope you guys decide to marry. BEING as I feel it's the right thing to DO..... GRACE TO YOU BOTH~!
Thank you so much....I took the first step a few weeks ago and proposed...for some reason I will never fully understand, she said yes
EXCELLENT: You have to make what I call the "DEAL"~! realizing at some point you'll feel quite angry with each other. Knowing that this will happen ahead of time, You'll agree to do whatever it is to GET THROUGH IT~! For It's my belief that marriage is a holy thing. 2 people becoming one. I'm Christian so anyway congratulations. I pray that ye both have a long and great marriage. Our time on this earth is not real long compared to ETERNITY~! I see good things for the both of you~!
thank you so much...we're competitive and we're fighters...anything that comes our way we will defeat it
Great Job! Not sure what i like more than this series: 5 point lead for Man City or Man United losing to Huddersfield
now you've gone and hurt my feelings...its a long season...once Pogba is back, the race will tighten back up...I must admit that City looks good this season...but teams always have lulls in momentum over the course of a 10.5 month season...City will not continue to play the way they are the whole season
I still believe this Aegon is a Faegon...more specifically a Blackfyre from the female line and the Rich Merchant that helped out Dany and Visarys (and is a known ally of Varys). But this is an interesting theory. I hadn't noticed the similarities between Dunk & Aeg and Faegon and Duck.
So you believe Dany is Aerys and Rhaella's daughter?
yes
I agree but what do the red door dreams mean?
it means that she lived at a house on the Braavosi coast that had a red door, where it is absolutely possible for a lemon tree could grow...everyone makes a big deal out of the red door and lemon tree as if she said she lived IN BRAAVOS, but she said she lived on the Braavosi coast
Exactly. I always said people were reading too much into that.
The Order of the Green Hand But if Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Danerys is the daughter of Aerys and Rhealla, why do Illyrio and Varys support Aegon? What reason would they have to throw the realm into chaos in order to install him on the throne? Plus, why would the Golden Company, established by Blackfyres and their loyalists, break a contract, which they have never done, to help a Targaryen restoration?
The theory I always thought made the most sense is that Aegon and Varys are Blackfyres, through the female line, with Varys being his uncle and Illyrio having married Varys' sister.
That final quote from Varys sounds like a campaign pledge for Stannis!
Aegon is built as new Stannis if Mannis were to die.
Awesome theory
Please redo Mance Raider is Arthur Dayne!
we're going to get back to new theories for a bit I think but we might redo a few more that are kind of embarrassingly poorly made
That's the easiest one I knew it when he beat Jon with his big f&@off shiny sword
The Order of the Green Hand ok then. Would y’all do a video on the lying piece of shit andals?
thats exactly what our next video is going to be
You should do a podcast with Preston Jacobs.
I'm not sure he'd be interested...we'd would love to though
Between your channel and his, I feel so enlightened and hungry for A Song of Ice and Fire content. Keep up the great work happy to be subbed
Hey guys, so I am currently on a reread and have been paying lots of attention to the first chapters of a game of thrones where most of this info comes from. As I have said before you have made me a true believer in this theory to the point I know thing the mere doubt I could have initially still had by the fact that Jon could be the prince is now totally gone (to that the show has contributed, as i so very want them to get all wrong), but as i go through this theory that is what got me to you guys channel on the first place because I never could get out of my head Varys speech to Kevan, that convinced me he could not be a Blackfyre because there is no point in lying to a dead man.
The only problem I have to fit all of this info into a tight little knot is this: How did Varys got involved? And Illyrio for that matter? Because the only thing that makes any sense to me in that regard is that Rhaegar himself got him involved and he brought the cheesemonger along. But I don’t know if that is what you guys think too, or if you have a better idea? Also, why would Rhaegar trust Varys for that since it is implied in the text that it was him that kind of ruined Harenhal at making Areys show up there?
Anyway, I just wanted to know what you guys thought about it.
As always, my rewatch are most enjoyable as ever!
Ana Isabel Pire Varys was the one telling Ned where to find Lyanna and it is most likely he has eyes everywhere
i legit always stop what I'm doing when I see one of your videos, and I've been waiting for you to re-release this theory! The main question I have though is wouldn't Jon Con have known the age of Elia's Aegon? Being Rhaegar's best friend, and all. A three year old and a few month old baby are very different in every aspect save for the fact of being very young. Everything else seems to line up.
we don't think they brought Aegon straight to Essos...they likely stayed at the Wolf's Den until he was old enough and strong enough to reliably survive crossing the ocean in a boat...he was probably more like 3-4 years old by the time they brought him to Jon Connington, and they could have just said he was a little small for his age or not said anything at all and used the fact that he doesn't have kids and has no idea how big a 4-5 year old should be
Thanks for clarifying! That's makes a lot of sense.
no problem
But why would Rhaegar give his second son the same name as his first born? Was it just Lyanna's idea to call her son the same as her dead husband's/lover's dead first born son to honour him?
Rhaegar seems to be the kind of guy, who takes naming a child very serious. I think he would have talked with Lyanna before his death about their unborn child and I can't imagine that he would name him the same as his first born, when his first born was still alive.
Laaiiv Since team Ned/Varys passed Lyanna's son as Elia's to Jon Connington they either renamed or named the baby Aegon. There is a possibility of Lyanna dying before naming her son. And since Rhaegar aimed for Visenya he wouldn't choose a boy name.
Illyrio Mopatis helps aegon solo proque is a generous man and varys is a one-dimensional character who only lives to serve the kingdom, that is the same absurd simplification that the series has made of varys.
That's a fantasy cliche, books are not cliches. also would be very simple,. which is more stable than the son of Illyrio Mopatis, who is a Blackfyre, son of the female line of that house.
1.1 The statue that sees Illyrio's tyrion as a young man is much like the aegon.
the war of the roses that is one of the main bases of the saga to Song of ice and fire, appears an imposotr at the end of the war, Lamberto Simmeim,
the fusion of aegon is only cause problems, since its introducinon is very late, besides elio and linda said that goerge originalemento not to introduce to faegon, only loo hiso to quasar more conflict, that originally dorne would be with dany.
Varys is on the whole more benign and far less sinister figure than his book counterpart:
that's a lot of what pretty westeros org, cricitica series, they are the most experts after george of the saga.
the child was most likely never named, Rhaegar never got to meet his son and Lyanna died soon after she gave birth, she probably didn't even got the chance to name him, if she did she definitely didn't named him Aegon, his was named/renamed Aegon later to maintain the lie of him being his older brother, Rhaegar and Elia's child
or he did get visenya but someone named her Daenerys?
Debo Smith the timeline doesn't match, the only way Daenerys could be Rhaegar's child is if Rhaegar was making her and fighting Robert at the Trident at the same time, The Order Of The Green Hand has explained it many times, Daenerys is younger than the baby born at the tower of joy