Why Ben Solo had to Die
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Sacrifice. Redemption. What is necessary to turn back from evil? We discuss the death of Ben Solo in Star Wars Episode 9: The Rise of Skywalker, and whether there was ever a way for Ben to turn back from Kylo Ren while still survivng. All that and more on today's Star Wars Lore video.
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![WHAT IF Ben Solo Survived… [PART 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qy71NzzUN80/mqdefault.jpg)
Because I've got a few comments complaining about spoilers, while I'm genuinely sorry if I spoiled something for you, The Rise of Skywalker has been out for nearly two months. If you haven't seen it yet that's your own fault.
Expecting people to cater to you at this point is ridiculous. The Russo brothers asked for two weeks with Endgame before openly discussing spoilers, it's been nearly two months for Episode IX.
EckhartsLadder Im subbed to you for star wars lore and updates. Not to have movies spoiled for me. Why should i be punished for being your sub. Fuck off with that shit. Unsubbing.
Zumbah agreed
If you don't want to be spoiled by the biggest blockbuster movie of the year.... Watch it. I'm sorry you got spoiled, but take some personal responsibility.
The Russos asked for two weeks with Endgame. You've had like 4 times that
I subbed to you to get spoiled on stories I never seen.
Idc about spoilers. If you say: "oh, this guy died because...", I'll have to see it myself.
Sometimes, part of the redemption-equals-death story is a part of overcoming a character's fear. Most of the time, a character's descent into villainy is because the character is afraid of something, and is willing to lash out at any threat. Anakin Skywalker was afraid of death. His mother's death, Padme's death, and his own death.
The only truly heroic way for him to die is for him to walk willingly into the jaws of death, and that's what he does to save his son. He redeems himself by throwing away his fear of death, and in the end, accepting it.
Nah, Anakin should have just done a donkey punch to the back of the Emperor head and watch the old man slide off the walkway under the railing .
@@krispalermo8133 He could have force-grabbed Luke's lightsaber and just sliced the old bastard in half.
@@KEVMAN7987 Yes he could have but,
a.) Grabbing, lifting, and tossing the Emperor was an impulsive act with out thinking.
b.) I seen people over the years have had an " anger issue moment " just punch or shoved someone or a given object that was giving them problems. Punching metal objects just leaves you with bloody knuckles.
Punching or kicking is a very quick impulsive act. Also in ESB & RotJ showed Luke having a habit of Kicking people in a fight, namely his father.
Then AotC & RotS it showed Anakin had a habit of Kicking people in a fight.
So if I was to reedit RotJ, I will Just have Vader Kick the Emperor in the back and send the old man flying, get into a grapple " which will cause Vader's death," following with a body slam finishing move dropping the Emperor down into the shaft.
c,) The Emperor was very narrow focus on slowly killing Luke and didn't notice Vader's change of heart. So the light saber bi-section would have rhyme with Maul's defeat.
* The ghost of Maul sees his formal master's defeat and says," Yes ! That is how It Fells ! "
@@krispalermo8133 Well, that wouldn't have worked. When Vader picks Spalpypeen up, he has to walk several steps to get him into a position where he can launch him down the shaft, so at best, a punch to the back of the head would have dropped the Emperor where he stood, and then left Vader having to - with one hand and one stump - lift the body off the floor, then carry him over to the shaft and lob him down.
And with regards to your second post, if you just watch the scene, you'll see Vader take the time to make a decision about it. He doesn't do it in anger, impulsively. It's deliberate.
@@derpimusmaximus8815 Please find the videos on the History Channel series " Knight Fight."
You have guys standing over 6ft6in weighting close to 300 lbs in body mass and armor. When these guys don't pull their punches or kicks the other guys slide 10ft to 15ft across the ground.
Solid hits don't cause bodies to just drop to the ground, they shove people off of their feet.
Also Vader's hands are carbon fiber or a light weight strong metal alloy, and his gloves are or listed as being weighted Mandalorain iron wire. A punch to the back of the head by Vader is like hitting a coconut with a carpenter hammer. Except the actor playing Vader was a pro body builder standing 6ft10in and weighting close to 240 lbs. People built like that swings from the hip hit with over 600lbs of impact force.
I will not argue about Force skill power rating. If Palpatine was just an 80 year old man with a taser gun wire shocking Luke, a punch to the back of his head from Vader will just kill him.
Eckharts Ladder: It's a movie. It's unchangeable.
George Lucas: I'm about to change this man's career.
that doesnt count
Who shot first that was changed
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
That business with the special editions doesn’t.. Dosent count
"I may have gone too far in a few places"
The thing is, I actually would've rather liked to see a story in which Kylo lives on, eluding the justice that he probably deserves. He has to live with his choices, choosing to perhaps strike out on his own as a vigilante or try to make the galaxy a better place in some way, even as people out there still hunt him and want revenge on him.
And I say all this as someone who doesn't really like Kylo's character all that much.
So like the video "properly redeeming ben solo", he goes out to hunt evil and right the wrongs he has done instead of the easy path of death
He could once again wear a mask, but for the good side
I would have preferred he go to prison.
@@moredetonation3755 in prison all he can do is kill and wait
@@darkphoenyx27 eh, feels a bit over-the-top
"it's a movie, it's unchangeable"
George Lucas: "Maclunkey"
George Lucas: "hold my maclunkey"
Ben: *Dies*
Reylo fan: Not to worry, we're still flying half a ship.
Kevin Hernandez bless obi-wan for this gift to our fandom.
Omfg I love this comment
As a Reylo myself, this comment is 👌.
Another happy landing.
Omg, i love this comment so much-
As a fan of Kylo Ren and Ben Solo I would have loved to see an end where Ben tries to sacrifice himself, but Rey dies instead and he is forced to live with his choices. Moving forward we see that he has decided to try to live up to the hero he retroactively sees Rey and the resistance to be, exploring the history of the jedi and training younglings. As an allegory this does more as Ben is now taking an active role in his own redemption. I see redemption similarly to addiction, as a sober alcoholic you are always recovering, weather it be 10 days or 10 years, Ben should never be redeemed, but always be on the path of redemption and to have him die to redeem himself feels too easy. Dying is easy, living is harder.
honestly they both should live and continue the movies on, kylo ren dealing with his regret and rey helping him through it and being proof that he can choose good now and not relish on the past
Dying for a good cause is heroic. But living your life for a good cause can be a much greater sacrifice.
But often rewards of a deeper sort are found as well, along with the pain.
To follow family tradition:
Force overdose
or killed by a Palpatine
Ben: lemme do both!
Eck: posts this on Valentine's day
Reylo fans: *A N G E R Y*
Reylos are really just Kylos
i like ships in star wars but i don't really like reylo
@@jh-ij4by I didn't know "reylo" was a starship.
Interestiinh
I'm a Reylo fan but I'm not angry lol. I recognize that Kylo/Ben dying is the best solution because you can't just expect the galaxy to forgive him and then have him and Rey get a "happy ending."
I just wanted him live because I am tired of the whole redemption by dying, we need more characters getting redeemed without dying like Zuko from Avatar
Edit: but you do bring some good point even if I disagree with his death
Darth Sidious hmmm how about comics venom? They basically went from brain eating spider hunting maniac, to special forces operative to full boneified hero! All it took as a lot of host switching, time and perspective!
same as you mate, I didn’t want him to die either, but Eck makes some really strong points as to why he ended up passing away.
While I too still disagree with the opinion that he should die, I’m glad to have seen some reasoning on the other side of the argument.
@Darth Sidious Good point but I still don't think it matters. The redemption by dying arc is getting old. I'd like to see a mass murderer like Ben living on and trying to atone for the rest of his life. See him struggle with PTSD and the darkness within him.
@@GreaterGrievobeast55 dont remember Venom being that vile, but maybe cause I'm mostly into DC. And boy does DC have some examples of heroes going crazy. Like the time Green Lantern Hal Jordan who went evil and murdered his corps, the Hawk who turned into a tyrant and most recently there's Flash (Wally West) who killed a bunch of heroes out of ptsd.
Going on to deconstruct them however, as Hal DID die sacrificing himself and became the Spectre, sometimes before being resurrected. Hawk too died and revived but didn't have much of a redemption arc. Wally is going through a pretty cool one, though.
Going back to Hal, as he's also got one elseworld story (Injustice 2 comics) with a redemption arc that if applied similarly, could work best for Ben Solo. But for that, he would've needed to face a similar crisis where they'd have no choice but to let him fight in the good guys.
Thorfinn from VS is another good example.
My biggest problem is that Han, Leia and Luke all died in service of Ben's redemption. So Ben dying anyway makes their deaths pointless.
That's a good point.
No no, he/she’s got a point.
@@jkeirejejhehehehe6796 your reply made me think of Kronk for some reason🤣
I’m sorry but that is a terrible point, Han Leia and Luke’s collective sacrifices saved Ben from the dark side, which led him to go to the aid of Rey in Exegol. Together the dyad stood against Sidious and THAT led to his ultimate demise. Just because Ben dies does not mean that his familial love meant nothing
After my first viewing Ben’s death was one thing I thought was a big letdown, and while I still don’t agree with the decision, I don’t hate it or think it “breaks the myth” as some have said. However I’ll make the case that Ben could’ve lived. Leia always wanted Ben back even after the destruction of the Hosnian System. There are several first order officers/captains/soldiers etc that deserted to join the resistance and they’re not treated as war criminals. And most importantly there are more ways to atone than by sacrificing your own life, especially since that doesn’t even fix the things he messed up. He would have to spend the rest of his time fighting to restore the republic he helped destroy. Ben’s memory of Han says “your mother’s gone, but what she stood for, what she fought for, that’s not gone” and it’s played out when Ben goes to Exegol to fight Palpatine but it could’ve been done again over a longer time actually fixing the rest of galaxy. Could’ve been a nice epilogue.
He was the Supreme Leader of the FO for almost a year though...
It's worth noting that Kylo was not responsible for the destruction of the Hosnian system. He opposed it, tried to appease Snoke in hope that he wouldn't go through with it, and was ignored. Kylo was also conspicuously absent during Hux's big rally. In the novelization, Kylo was even more vocal in his opposition to using Starkiller.
@@nathandavis1742 And what did he do during that year? It seems he pretty much ignored the Resistance and occupied himself by taking on the Sith Eternal.
EckhartsLadder: *makes video titled ‘Why Ben Solo had to Die’*
Hardcore Reylos: “So you have chosen... Death.”
Honestly, I'm a non-Reylo and I wanted him to live. After reading The Rise of Kylo Ren comic, his past is so damn tragic and sad that its pretty damn miserable that he died - like the Skywalkers were doomed for eternity. Also, Han, Leia and Luke all died in service of Ben's redemption. So Ben dying anyway makes it seem like their deaths were pointless.
Let's be honest, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is probably the best and more interesting character from the sequels
Deimos4500 him as a character and Adam driver as an actor CARRIED the sequels
@@Wolverines83 for sure, Adam Driver was the Best actor from the new main characters imo.
Not probably, he was THE best character from the sequels
Eck: It's a movie, its unchangeable.
George Lucas: Has entered the chat
Disney: Hold my beer
J J Abrams: I'm about to retcon this whole man's career
Your points are valid. But I’d argue that all the same points are hit if he survives and he’s exiled to Tatooine. It’s the ultimate form of irony. His namesake Ben Kenobi was self exiled to save a Skywalker. Ben Solo is himself exiled (by the new republic) to tatooine for the rest of his life for ironically, saving a “Skywalker” sure it’s a form of prison. But his arc is still complete and earned. He then lives in a place where every significant person who’s effected his life has been. He gets to atone for his sins in the binary sunset. Luke starts the saga longing to leave, and it ends with the last son of Skywalker finally back home. Full circle. It’s like poetry, it rhymes.
I never really saw Vader's sacrifice as "redemption". I saw it entirely as personal change: he didn't give two shits about redemption, he just wanted to save his son... that he did both at once was just coincidence.
Kylo is more complicated, and his death was fine for the movie, but I still kinda wish he didn't die. Ben was only after redemption from Rey at that point, and he pretty much already got it just by showing up. His death only really stopped us all from imagining the sorts of stuff he'd have to go through, and develop from, afterwards. His main arc was done, but he's still a very imperfect dude. I don't feel anything could redeem him universally... but story-wise, he could easily have just been starting a lot of new interesting chapters.
I liked the idea of him going to Ach Tu, exiling himself.
Who else is watching star wars videos alone on Valentines day?
Me 😂
Me🤦♂️
Robert H Love is temporary, the Senate is forever
I’m watching them at 3am 😔
He was my favourite sequel trilogy character.
Him and finn are the only ones with any depth
Michael Szilagyi I only remember Finn yelling Rey and his fight against Ben(which I thought was a better fight than Rey vs Kylo).
@@mobslayer211 it felt more natural, more raw, I don't know if that makes sense
That's why he needed to die, because Rey
@@michaelszilagyi4529 I mean not really? It's implied at best for Finn. He honestly just doesn't work.
Kylo's great though, easily one of the best Star Wars characters.
I would’ve been fine with his sacrifice if it wasn’t so contrived. Rey beats Palpatine and then gives out for reasons and then Ben (in typical Skywalker fashion) uses the force and dies. His death feels like an afterthought. His sacrifice feels hollow because the writers wanted it both ways and have Rey beat Palpatine and Ben die.
Disney could have gone the sasuke route because one good deed and dying isn’t redemption but having to live with what he’s done and constantly trying to make things right is true atonement for ones sins
I agree. At first I wasn't a fan of the emo darth vader tantrums but after a while he kinda grew on me.
You made valid points, I think this convinced me to change my mind about Episode 9 too.
Oh, it's you again, but without the mustache. I agree.
Star Wars: "Even evil people have good left within them."
Palpatine:
Honestly Palpatine is barely even human, and thats why he is a amazing villain
I think if he wasn't the last Skywalker, a lot more people wouldn't be as upset. As it stands, a lot of people don't like it (including myself) because it means that the Skywalker family is dead, which is an overly bitter ending for what should be a bittersweet, or just happy, ending, especially considering the saga did have a happy ending for nearly 40 years: Return of the Jedi.
yes exactly thank you!!
Red Boy Well it’s that combined with the fact that with Ben’s death, Han and Leia died for absolutely nothing. They died because they wanted to redeem Ben but immediately after he does change his ways he kicks the bucket before atoning for his sins, they died so that he could live and he just died, that’s a horrible ending to the Skywalker Clan.
I mean I feel like there was some sexual tension between Rey and Ben… so if the writers really wanted to, they could make an arc where Rey has a child in the new 2026 movie 💀
It’s going to be weird, but I think there’s a few loopholes the writers can make just to preserve the Skywalker clan. Maybe Rey can, through the force, have Ben’s child… (like what happened with Shmi Skywalker) I should probably fucking still now lmao this is sounding too much like fanfiction
Bruh the 3 OG characters died just for him to get back on the light and when he turns back to the light he just dies
It's not just a part of so-called "Christian Redemptive Suffering," it's a part of a fundamental selflessness that defines heroic behavior. It's about doing the right thing even if it hurts you. It's about letting go of something when it's causing damage to you and those around you. Sacrificing something of yourself for others is such a fundamental part of heroic storytelling, that it goes back to even before the Bible. Grecian myths are filled with heroes who put themselves through insane struggles, sacrificing parts of themselves dedicating themselves to the ultimate goal.
We find heroic qualities in people who are able to give up something that they have or desire, if it means doing the right thing. It's part of storytelling. It's part of being human. And this is why the story of Star Wars is based around the "Hero's Journey."
Since you bring up the Bible, Ben was described in interviews as the "prodigal son." Remember how that parable ended. I think if Jesus told that parable today, there'd be a whole chorus of people insistent that the prodigal son has to die.
The sequel trilogy was also not based on the Hero's Journey, but the Heroine's Journey - for both Leia and Rey. A huge theme in the Heroine's Journey is reconciliation.
Been watching you for years, and this only just struck me.
Your avatar, the Doge with the imperial officer cap.
Which means either Eckhart is the pupper of an imperial officer, or an imperial officer himself.
Both unsettle me.
Personally, I would have preferred that Kylo ultimately never "redeems" himself, because the alternative is spending a lifetime trying to atone for years of genocide, brutal oppression, and general slaughter without pause for the pain and suffering that caused. We only saw him sincerely pause when it came to Leia, the rest of it he ultimately went through with, including the murder of his own father. The trope of 'redemption equals death' is too easy for me, they don't live with their actions and don't commit to the hard work of at least trying to undo some of the damage they caused.
Failing that, I'd have rather seen him fully commit to being an evil space-fascist to the bitter end, ala that Duel of the Fates script.
I concur. My only qualm with DOTF is that I would want Ben to mirror ROTS Anakin, perhaps even dropping the "I HATE YOU" line to Rey and/or Luke.
@@Commander23c I guess for that there are better candidates than him. We should not forget that the FO at the start was also created to build a better Empire, and by people who are not "bad" in the traditional simple way Star Wars often shows. People like Admiral Rae Sloane or someone like legends Gilaad Pellaeon would have the potential to bring Star Wars out of the very boring bad vs good conflict its films are stuck in.
That is what i loved about legends. The war ended not with total defeat of the "Evil" Empire. They made a agreement, and a fair one.
You ever heard of war ? Remember US dropped atomic bombs ..that's in effect genocide.
I can't honestly see him as "redeemed" in ONLY one lifetime of atonement. If you measure in terms of "lives destroyed" he's getting up into the lifetimes of stars as far as atonement goes (and that's not including the star that was actually destroyed). The sense of destruction is just unfathomable to us. Our sense of justice just breaks down on those scales in that we can't think of an appropriate punishment for the lives he destroyed.
@@pills- He was not responsible for Starkiller. He opposed it and was ignored.
Last time I was this early, the droids were still attacking the Wookiees, which brings me to this,
What about the droid attack on the wookiees?
Rey: " I'm an Skywalker"
Everyone: Visible confusion
Identity theft is not a joke Rey. Millions of Americans suffer from it every year.
*shocked kit fisto face*
Im Hungry Ok hehe
"I am all the Sith!"
"And I.... am Iron Man"
Schnitzel Boi anakin was created by plaeguis and palpatine?
It would have been cool to see a redemption story from him.
You did.
Tbh, i believe the original idea was for Kylo to live, but probably Adam Driver said no because he didnt want to work for disney anymore
Why Ben Solo had to die:
*because we all know episode 9 had to copy episode 6*
This is an interesting perspective, and you've articulated it very well!
On the whole, I agree.
I feel like killing a character because he did bad things but became good at the last minute is a cop out. It's easier to make them do one good thing and kill them than to keep them alive and have them come to terms with the evil they've done.
Great video! (I'm a Reylo, by the way.)
I wanted him to live and atone for his crimes and am still kinda disappointed that didn't happen, but I've come to appreciate the "poetry," as George Lucas would say, of how it mirrors Vader's. Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was partially motivated by the desire to save the woman he loved from death, but I would argue for selfish reasons, as he wasn't willing to sacrifice anything for her, he wanted her AND his power AND his life. Ben's return to the Light was partially motivated by his desire to save the woman he loves from death, but unlike Anakin, he proved his love for her was ultimately selfless because he was willing to (and did) sacrifice his political power AND his life. He wanted her to live, even if he didn't.
And I'm glad he at least experienced a moment of pure happiness and love before he died, that mitigates the tragedy of his life and sadness of his death quite a bit for me.
That said, I think I still would've preferred exiled Knight Errant Ben, wandering around the galaxy helping people and trying to make up for what he's done, which could've been done by having news of "Kylo Ren's" death be announced to the galaxy, and then to have "Ben Solo" be the one to live. I've seen that used in redemption arcs before. If it seems like he's escaping justice that way, that's what him going around helping people is for. Chewie and/or Lando could go with him so he wouldn't be alone, and he'd have his Force Bond with Rey, so they could see each other and build a relationship through that (I picture her staying behind to build the New Jedi Order or whatever it would be called), and after whatever period of time the writers deem appropriate, he could return and live a life with Rey.
But that's not what happened, and as far as Kylo/Ben is concerned, I'm ultimately satisfied with what we got.
I have seen an interesting argument that Ben's death is a deliberate callback/inversion of Anakin.
Ben was willing to die for a woman that he loved. Anakin was willing to make OTHER people die to save the woman that he loved, but it isn't clear that he himself would have died for Padme in Episode III, because his love then was a selfish love. (Years later, he did make such a choice to save Luke.) And the last act of the last Skywalker is to leave a legacy of good in the galaxy - everything good Rey and whatever Jedi she trains (and every Jedi they train) do becomes possible because Ben gave up his life. So the final legacy of the Skywalkers is a good one, even if 2/3s of them were murderous sociopaths for a time.
And yet Rey spent a pretty big portion of TROS being evil, attacking and then stabbing someone who did not attack her, had no intention of harming her, and even when he was unarmed. But Rey was given a pass for every bad thing she did, which, I am very sorry to admit, is a Mary Sue characteristic.
I didn't believe Rey was a Mary Sue in TFA and definitely not in TLJ, but Rey was quite terribly written in TROS.
I wanted him to live cause he was the last Skywalker but yeah his crimes are too much
I am a Reylo and I wanted Ben to be redeemed. I knew deep in my heart he was destined to die though. One day I got a link from a friend to Freddie Prinze Jr.’s Star Wars rant. I listened to it 4 times in a row and each time I heard it the feeling that Ben Solo was destined to die grew more and more real to me. I knew in my heart it was going to happen. It made me come to the realization that even though the character had a messed up life, manipulated from even before his own birth, he still had choices. Everyone has pain in their past but you can’t use it as an excuse to hurt other people. In that moment at the end I could see it in his face when he makes the decision to let go of his own life to save her. “I do not deserve to go on, but she does.” People sometimes forget that Rey had a horrible life too. Yet she didn’t go all dark side and murder people. She didn’t seek power. She remained good despite her hard knock life. The character of Ben Solo was shown to accept responsibility for his wrong doing. He knew himself in the story that he didn’t deserve redemption but through grace and self sacrifice he got it anyway because of the one good part of him. His love for her and for his family. I love Joseph Campbell and my favorite audiobook is The Power of Myth. In it he talks about Triston and Esold. He talks about how Triston falls in love with her and when questioned about the danger of this powerful feeling he had for her his response was so purely beautiful. If it means death then I will die for it, if it means eternal hell then I embrace it. No matter the consequence nothing is bigger than this feeling of love and compassion. He gave her the only thing he could in the end and that was his life so she could go on. He did what Anakin never could. He saved his love from death. In the end it’s love that will save you. Pure, true, selfless love. That’s what Star Wars is all about. I still believe they have ways to bring his character back and the character can be re-born into a new light. That’s a comment for another time though. This was a great video. Thank you for all you do Sir MTFBWYA⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
I can partially agree that characters that sacrifice themselves do help redeem themselves more. However I also think that if a character lives then if they do want to redeem themselves, then by living they will have more time to do more to that end. For example Teal'c from Stargate, works to undo the terrible things he has done.
I would of liked to see him sacrifice his life by living it out to help those he caused so much suffering to. While not an example of redemption, I love to imagine him in a similar place as Simon from the end of gurren Lagaan, surrendering his role from the world stage and wandering the galaxy helping others and inspiring hope. Maybe Kylo picks up a new mask, grey or white, and goes by Ben or even Ben Skywalker like Rey, becoming something beyond himself. While Rey becomes face of the Jedi, Ben wanders the galaxy, planet hopping as he helps communities he once caused so much pain towards, without getting any recognition. Maybe he even adopts broom boy and trains him, so he can right the wrongs of destroying Luke’s academy. And Ben Skywalker and Brook Boy wander with nothing but the clothes on their backs, bringing simple acts of kindness to those that were robbed of them.
Honestly I think his death turns the entire Skywalker Saga into a family tragedy! I thought he should have ended up on Ahch-To. Recently found out Pablo Hidalgo pitched that ending. I think some people are taking this WAY to literally that he would have faced War Crimes! 😂
He should have been the one to survive and bury the lightsabers in the desert. Who are you?
Ben Skywalker.
You could have shown him trying to atone for his sins as a nameless wanderer even though it may be impossible.
You also get rid of Rey who is an uncompelling nothing of a character.
Personally I think it would be much better if Rey had fallen to the dark side. If she embraced the line of her grandfather. I mean look at her. How often she used the force out in high emotion? I do not think that she ever was that much in balance. Or how they say:
"Misdirected passion. Such a waste!"
Of course the Sith will life on in any case. They are a idea, a ideology, and as such are impossible to kill.
Marc Bartuschka dark side Rey could have been cool in episode 8. Then the drama could be about defeating her, you could’ve even set that up with her “training”. It probably would’ve killed the series pacing in episode 9.
The whole thing about her grandfather could be interesting. I would’ve liked it if they had given her some character by having her reconcile some sort of flaw of hers with her parentage.
That would need at least TLJ to be changed for Rey to actually have a flaw that has story impact.
Im not on the same boat though I loved to hear that opinion delivered so well. My thoughts are along these lines. It has been said (and I don't agree) that Vader didn't really earn his redemption. That saving his son was a good first step, but he wasn't able to show a more fully realized change because he died then and there. Again I don't agree with that perspective. But, I do think of Ben in that light. Cause going by the fairy tale logic. Anakin made his choice as a man. He was manipulated yes but still he was developed enough to know better.
Ben wasn't. Palp was in his head from the moment he was born going off of aftermath. He was a boy when his choice was made. (Yes he still should of known as better but my point is a child falling to the dark side isn't the same as an adult)
It makes sense to me to have redemption=death for Vader cause he's the patriarch his story was told. Not say he wouldn't have done good if he lived, but then the passing of the torch wouldn't be very strong.
Through Ben there was the chance to have that passing of the torch. The new generation would have been able to reach a fuller potential.
Now this is my moral opinion and I get of folks don't agree. But to me, that would be a more satisfying capstone. Instead of, if you do bad things, your rotten to the core and even if your learn the error of your ways and try to make up for them, the best you can hope to do is die for someone else's sake. To me the capstone should have been, you can turn things around, and once you've changed, you can go on to make the Galaxy a better place than when you found it.
I don't even view that as atonement. More, the Galaxy could have been a better place with Ben solo in it. That potential for good is why redemption is something worth believing in. And I feel you cut it off at the knee in this case in a way it didn't for Vader.
The thing is that the galaxy wasn't really a better place after Vader's redemption.
@@sheevone4359 right! Which is why I think it'd be good for Ben and the story as a whole if he lived. Vader died before he could do anything, now Ben did too.
@@jessenadeau9693 I see what you mean.
At first when I saw your Twitter comments I wasn’t on board. But after watching the video, I think you made some really really good points. And I agree now
Yes and no. Redemption is achieved much quicker through death but we have seen that before. It would’ve made for much more interesting sequels if Ben lived and we got to see his struggle continue as someone who has to live with what he has done. Instead we are leaving off with exactly how it did in episode 6 the bad guys are dead the hero’s are left to rebuild the galaxy
Hey Eck! Long time lurker, first time commenter here! I just wanted to jump in and say that I totally agree with you - in fact, it's a conversation I have also had many times with a friend of mine who pointed out the same thing to me that yours did to you about redemption through sacrifice and death being the only way. Having both watched Rise of Skywalker and read Duel of the Fates recently (thank you SO MUCH for that download link btw!!!), I do infinitely prefer what Trevorrow did in DOTF overall but I do like how both versions of IX handled Rey and Kylo's story (albeit in different ways) and I find it telling that both Abrams and Trevorrow felt that the only way to redeem Kylo was through death and sacrifice. I mean he basically does the same thing in both versions of the story; sends his life energy to Rey through the force and gives his life to save her. For a character as flawed and evil as Kylo Ren, the ultimate sacrifice is the only way for redemption to have meaning. As much as I would have loved to see him run away and enter self imposed exile as a wandering warrior helping those in need, thematically it would have felt cheap. Say what you will about the sequels, JJ, Rian, and Trevorrow all understood this and Ren's arc ultimately pays off as it must in both versions of IX.
Anyway just my two cents! Thanks for the awesome content sir! You're pretty much my go-to Star Wars youtuber! :D
Just a preface to this comment: I'm not a Reylo fan, and I liked Force Awakens and *some* of TLJ, specifically the thematics, but that's beside the point.
I feel like Ben's already sacrificed a lot by his redemption, he's killed his own father and faced his memory, and his mother died to deliver a message to him. Both of which tried to redeem him somehow, and are only now getting through to him. I know that's not enough to forgive destroying several planets, so instead of having him fall after the battle, I think it would have been much more interesting to see him start traversing the galaxy on his own to right his wrongs, one little step at a time.
Vader's death was acceptable because he "killed" the Emperor, the man who made Anakin into the monster he is now. He's undone all that by cutting the source. All Ben did was repair what was lost during his final battle, which he wasn't even there for. His death felt kinda cheap, and if he died while killing the emperor, he would feel even more like a Vader rip-off.
There's also the fact that, in losing Ben, TRoS drops part of the Hero's Journey, specifically the "Returning the elixir" part. There's a video out there somewhere about that, so I won't get into it.
Here is how I would handle post survival for Ben Solo. I believe the only path is for Ben to earn his redemption. Ben makes amends to Finn and Poe and parts ways with Rey. And honestly I would have Ben take Leia’s Lightsaber, while Finn takes Anakin’s. He was revealed to be force sensitive, so why not? Anyway continuing. Ben decides he has to make things right. So he says farewell to Rey and leaves in the Falcon to fly to every known outposts of The First Order. To destroy what’s left and free everyone from their grasp. To right his wrongs and make things right. Only after finishing off The First Order as a means of atonement and help the galaxy one person at a time as a means to right his wrongs, do I think he truly earns his redemption and earn his place at Rey’s side.
One of the things I really liked about Rise of Skywalker is that the Skywalker name is now the Jedi's equivalent to the Sith's Darth title.
I agree entirely. I saw the movie with a group, and while they were grumpy about the ending at first, I mentioned a reductive version of the necessity of his sacrifice & this idea of redeeming. After a moment of deliberation, everyone ended up agreeing. It's a message I see in fantasy stories sometimes.
Although I am not religious or spiritual at all, I do believe in redemption through works. I would love to read more stories that think along these lines.
It worked for Revan who did just as bad if not worse.
The thing is, Kylo was always supposed to have the opposite of Vader’s journey, and such I think he should’ve lived on after his redemption opposite to Vader’s redemptive death.
Liked the rambling and the concepts expressed. Well thought out and felt like part of a genuine conversation
The sad thing is that Ben Solo probably hardly had a happy moment in his life. He felt neglected and abandoned by his parents, his own uncle decided that he would be better off dead, Snoke was in his mind from the moment of his birth... He became a criminal joining the Knights of Ren and Snoke to save his own life and to vent his frustration at a world that never saw him as himself, only as somoene who had this huge power. He gave his life to the girl he loved because she was the only person who had ever shown him compassion (apart from his father), got a kiss and died, still young.
Anakin had grown up with a loving mother, felt understood by Qui-Gon, won the pod race, married the woman he loved, knew he was going to be a father, lived through countless adventure with Obi-Wan repeatedly proving himself a hero. He died as an elderly man, in a broken body.
That's what makes me bitter about Ben's death: had he know some happiness before he fell to the Dark, his life wouldn't have been so bitter and bleak. :-(
Don’t apologize for bringing up Christianity; honestly, “painful redemption” is a theme that transcends any one religion, and I’m sure it plays a heavy role in reincarnation-based religions as well.
Personally, tho, as satisfying as the “Redemption=Death”/“Death=Redemption” cliches can be within story structures, I find them to be an “easy” way out - a quick death for a single act of good, and suddenly you’re free from the consequences of your past sins (afterlife judgments notwithstanding).
I’d honestly love to see a (to use a 40k term) “penitent crusade” type of redemption: the character lives, and while redeemed in the eyes of their immediate friends, still has to carry the burden of their past on their shoulders. They travel the galaxy trying to right the wrongs that they may or may not have been a part of, and by doing so, hope to change not only the galaxy, but also their inner self, and hopefully their image in the eyes of the masses.
Plus, it creates opportunities for more character growth, more adventures, and of course, more time with everyone’s favorite (sets of) characters.
I actually think a Christian concept of redemption would work really well as an alternative ending for Ben Solo (one I was hoping for, personally). Redemption in Christianity isn't just being forgiven after apologizing. Multiple times Jesus heals someone in need and tells them to "sin no more" as his one and only admonition to them. In a metaphorical sense, if you do harm in any way, it's not just enough to apologize and be healed once, you should prevent yourself from doing it again.
The Dark Side is alluring. Once it has its hold on you, the context from the films seems to be that it's hard to let go. That would indicate to me that fully turning away from the dark requires more than just killing a Sith and the Knights of Ren. How painful would it truly be?
That does provide a good setup for the penitent crusade you mentioned, and a good way for a post-ST novel to look at the difficulties of actually redeeming oneself for past evils. Maybe in his quest for redemption, Ben is tempted to the dark side multiple times, either by having to make a choice to avoid using the dark to make things easier or by having to avoid paying evil unto evil.
Nah, Painful redemption and forgiveness are pretty uniquely Christian.
If you want to see what actual morals are in other religious cultures then read their stories, don't just assume that they have the same ones you do.
I can name a fair number of Indian and Chinese Heros who commit worse (from a western perspective) atrocities than Vader or Kylo, if not to the same scale.
Keep in mind that those are the good guys.
The idea that everyone on Earth shares the same fundamental understanding of morality as the west is one undercut by paternalism and cultural Erasure.
@@GonnaDieNever A quick google search of "purgatory (in other religions)" reveals that, No, painful purification of sins (at least in the afterlife) is Not uniquely Christian. Buddism, Hinduism, pre-Christian Judaism, and i think Islam all have some form or another of "expiation of sins post-death" and it is Never painless.
I think part of the reason they treated Hondo the way they did was to show the... not corruption but moral ambiguity the Jedi have when not being directly confronted with atrocities
Daktylon We’re pirates we don’t even know what that means!
My bad, I’ll recap. Jedi kinda suck when they aren’t forced to be good.
What is the source that says Hondo Ohnaka apparently killed children?
I didn’t say anything about killing kids but him and his gang for sure tried to kill those padawans in the clone wars show
@@DrankenDune I mean... It was Eck in the video who said that he killed kids.
Just wonderin if you could confirm or deny.
This was a really deep video and I loved every second of it. Maybe you could do more deep, philosophical videos, maybe on morals and choices of different characters, factions, etc?
Ben Solo had no force ghost at the end. He didn't go to force heaven. He simply disappeared and that was it. In an interview Chris Terrio said that he had only redeemed himself in his own mind and there was no way he could ever make up for his sins. So I guess he's in force purgatory now. If you hated Ben Solo as a character you can say it's a fate he deserved, but I don't . I wanted him to live and atone for his crimes. My own father as a young man went to prison for manslaughter. After he was released he became a productive member of society. The message that if you commit a crime you should never be allowed to atone for it is damned bleak.
boreas 39 so Ben can’t be redeemed but anakin who killed a bunch of Jedis and younglings is totally redeemable
You could have him survive and still make a huge sacrifice. Have him lose his identity, gain a new face and name, and find a new life as someone new. Kind of like what happened in KOTOR, but without memory loss.
I have a question, though. And please, no insult, I'm genuinely curious.
Kylo Ren is a monster because he's involved in the death of innocent people while he was defending a cause he believed in.
As far as I know, the resistance have killed thousands upon thousands of people when they exploded Starkillerbase or when they crashed the star destroyers / dreadnought and they did it because they were defending a cause they believe in. Not everyone on that base / ship were there to fight, a lot of them didn't have a choice or were simply doing their job.
While people will say it's not the same thing (again, please, no insult), the difference between the two is really just on which side of the conflict you are.
Storm troopers are soldiers and yet no one calls Poe a monster when they die. If Resistance fighters get killed, Kylo Ren is a monster.
In the prequels, the separatists were called the monsters and yet it was the Republic that refused to let them separate in the first place. So technically, the republic and those who were working for the republic were the monsters if we go by this logic.
When Rey met Kylo, all he did was stop her from shooting him. Yes, he kidnapped her but he hadn't hurt her. Yet, she wanted to kill him. But no one calls her a monster for being so aggressive.
While I am not saying Kylo Ren is innocent, I am saying he isn't the only monster. Everybody got blood on their hands...
I hope I don't get attacked for this comment. Just my thoughts...
Thanks for the awesome videos I really appreciate focusing on the lore and all the positive aspects of Star Wars A lot of Star Trek and Star Wars channels have lost track of that and focus on the hate
Star Wars definitely has some very Judeo-Christian undertones to it. That’s one of the reasons I love it so much
When you’re Christian and didn’t even realize the themes behind it.
Absolutely
Two words: prodigal son.
Ben was described as such by the writers and directors. But did the prodigal son have to die at the end?
I don't think Ben needed to die to redeem himself. Separating himself from Rey to go dismantle the remains of the FO and spending the rest of his life healing the galaxy alone would have been enough. But I did like his death for what it mean to his relationship with Rey and how it does what Anakin couldn't. He was desperate to keep Padmé alive so he could be with her. Kylo on the other hand loves Rey so selflessly that he'll do anything for her to live even if it means he has to die and can't be with her.
I feel like Ben took "a coward's way out". I would have actually loved Ben to actually have to face some sort of consequences for what he's done.
Is Anakin's way also "a coward's way out"?
@@sheevone4359 I mean, I quess kinda, but Anakin by this point is an old man more Machine than man, a man who brought down the jedi order, killed the younglings, was declared truly lost by Obi-Wan, meanwhile Ben's commitment to the dark side was kind of dubious through the movies, and he spends quite a time in Rise of Skywalker in the light side, meanwhile Vader's turn is sudden. I quess it comes down to the execution, Anakin was conviniently fatally wounded by his turn back to light, Meanwhile Ben just literally gives his hitpoints to Rey.
blackore64 only one of them would be able to live, otherwise none of them could
@@sheevone4359 Anakin didn't die a coward, the act of saving Luke electrocuted him. He didn't die cheaply for no explainable reason, he died because of a logical sequence of events. There's a big difference between Vader and Ben's death for this reason. For Vader there was actual meaning & reason behind it. For Ben it was out-of-the-blue & confusing.
blackore64 Vader wasn’t that old. Maybe 45 at most. Remember Padme cradle snatched him he was barely in his twenties when she got pregnant. Luke was 19. In the first movie. So only 10ish years older than Kylo.
If Ben lived, it really wouldn't be the worst thing that happened in the film lol. Honestly in this universe, it would've been the more bold thing to do than just retreading 4-6 poorly.
Happy Valentine's Day, Rey, your true love had to die
I always thought Ben would have to be redeemed, otherwise Han’s death is meaningless. I also thought that he had to die since the galaxy at large wouldn’t accept him.
Peter Gonzales it’s a big galaxy. Lots of places to hide. His dad was rather good at it. Come to think of it so was his Uncle.
@@hannahpreece3651 Yep, Luke Skywalker was the champion when it came to hide and seek
Peter Gonzales I think Ben dying IMMEDIATELY after he finally goes to the light only makes Han and Leia’s deaths meaningless in the end, because for all of their efforts in trying to save their son it all ends up being for nothing since he just dies before he could actually atone for his sins. And even if the Galaxy wouldn’t forgive him that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t try to redeem himself, you shouldn’t base atonement on whether or not people forgive you, you should do it simply to be a better person at the end of the day and if you are than that’s the best you could do.
You realize the horrible message that sends to people who haven't been accepted by our society, right?
I do quite enjoy it when you talk about thematic elements and the like as well. This was an interesting take. While redemption in real life is usually a slow and miserable process, fiction does require a satisfying arc, so redemption through thematically appropriate sacrifices is usually necessary.
I think it'd be interesting to see you posit on other things like this, if you feel you want to. I love hard lore, but in the end, that's not what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
I think that while it might make sense thematically, i still feel they should have written it in a clearer way that Ben absolutely need to die. Like maybe have him notice how much of himself he is losing to save Rey and hesitate for a second, but pressed on anyway knowing how much he needed to do it. As it is, a viewer wouldn't know that Ben is seriously dying. So when we see it happen, it's a bit sudden and unsatisfying. That's what it is to me, at least. I hope i worded it well.
"Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to."
*_Episode 8-9 are now in my past..._*
"Death is better than life as a hermit in Exile"
Fairly certain there are death row inmates that would disagree with you.
I thought similarly with redemption only through sacrifice. I also felt that Ben couldn't be force healed by Ray due to conservation of life force with Ben fully drained and Ray exhausted only recently revived.
I agree that making the choice hard by making it come with a very high price does in fact express how meaningful that choice is. It meant so much to Ben to help Ray that he laid his life down for her.
Lol, I'm tearing up a little.
Really it's the presence of life after death that really muddies the themes of what value death truly has within stories. In real life, some people believe in life after death, but what we can factually conclude is that we _don't know._ It is because we don't know that we fear it, that we see death as tragic. The religious rationalize tragedy in death by conceptualizing afterlives that involve gratuitous punishment of some kind, such as burning in hell. But as a generality, we don't know what comes after the end of life, and so our animal instincts are gripped by the terror of nothingness. What is worse, ceasing to exist or existing in pain? Many think they have the personal answer but I'd reckon most of those people are, again, rationalizing their fears.
So when we are presented with fiction, like Star Wars, and we write into the story a factual presence of an afterlife, it forces us to reevaluate the value of death if we are to give the writing any scrutiny. Darth Vader dying isn't so tragic when he lives on as a Force ghost. But if he is redeemed and lives on, then what exactly did he lose by dying? He was completely redeemed for making only one good choice despite having made countless evil ones. Do we accept the fact of him becoming a Force ghost as a lesson about forgiveness, or do we take a more realistic approach and actually question the logic of the scenario? Because in real life, we don't know there is an afterlife. We don't know there is a forgiveness inherent in the universe itself, let alone a reward.
Let me be hypothetical for a moment. Let's say that all Force ghosts are just illusions within Luke's mind; closer to visions than to literal spirits of the deceased. In short, there is no definitive life after death in Star Wars, within this hypothetical. What even is death then, as in it's value, when it happens to Vader? Did he get a reward? We can't say he did in a redemptive sense. But what does he get DEFINITIVELY by dying? One thing: he is absolved of living responsibilities. Some people think suffering is worse than nonexistence. This is often prevalent in people who have strong moral holdings including a sense of guilt. If you do bad, you need to be punished. So is passing into nonexistence worse than living onward and atoning for your crimes? From this perspective, no.
What if characters like Vader and Kylo don't deserve death, let alone to be rewarded with an afterlife? What if it would be more appropriate that they live and pay for their crimes in living sacrifice, rather than giving up their lives for what amounts to zero total punishment? Or are we supposed to totally and completely forgive these characters in spite of the atrocities they committed and let them off the hook, to the point of accepting the idea of them being redeemed by the _universe?_ Many might say yes, we should forgive them. To those people I would ask: would you bestow the same forgiveness upon people as horrible as Vader or Ren... if they were *real?* Is that one choice enough to save them, if these monsters weren't fictional?
Personally, I am not so sure. I awfully love the idea of universal forgiveness and the inherent good within people no matter how terrible they are. But I can't help but wonder how pragmatic forgiveness is, and if we should be idolizing fictional stories that run counter to the pragmatic reality of morals. That reality being is that punishment is necessary, and death as a punishment outside of religious or fictional context is actually useless. You aren't sacrificing anything if you are rewarded by an afterlife or absolve yourself of having to endure living punishments.
However, Vader's death was a consequence of logic. It was because the action of saving his son literally electrocuted him. So you could say the reward was not because of the death itself, but because of his willingness to accept death as a consequence in order to facilitate justice. The Rise of Skywalker is so poorly written that I don't know if there is any logical analogue to definitively understand Ben Solo's death in that movie, unlike Vader in Return of the Jedi. Did Ben get redeemed? Did he not? Does he deserve redemption? Does he deserve punishment? Who actually the fuck knows anymore when talking specifically about the sequel trilogy? What even is the value of death anymore in Star Wars? But what about the droid attack on the wookies?
Watching Eckk right after it goes up
I appreciate that the Skywalkers rose and all died when the Palpatine threat was eradicated.
Suggestion:
Which Sci-Fi Faction Has the Best Space Marine | Adeptus Astartes(WH40K) Warrior-Servants(Halo) Guardians(Destiny) Saiyans(Dragon Ball)
1. He already done something like this
2. u really think any of those can be better than astartes?
@@madzistropudzitto3229 1.
I know, but in my opinion this video was poorly done.
2.
Well, the Saiyans would destroy them, and the rest would have roughly equal chances against Astartes, BUT thanks to their special abilities and gadgets, they would have a big advantage.
Thanks for that. This really helped me process.
Kylo had to die, and he did, but Ben didn't have to. Ben making the ultimate sacrifice didn't HAVE to end in his actual death, even if that was his intention. There was no reward in that, and he didn't get to atone in life, so what did it matter? All those families of the trillions lost (that somehow Ben was complicit in? Ummm *coughs* Hux *coughs*) don't know Ben, or why he gave his life, so where is the justice in that?? Maybe if punitive condemnation and the death penalty is your bag, his end seems like a logical conclusion. Ben was a fundamentally good person, whose goodness and good intentions were manipulated and twisted in revenge of his family, and his family's legacy. Ben's fall was orchestrated as a punishment for Ben's entire family, and he lived a life of self-loathing and unending torment. Where is the justice in the death of someone who was so fundamentally good that he didn't hesitate to give his life for another, when in the end he is unmourned and forgotten, and not even seen as a force ghost?!! You're right that his sacrifice was necessary to the narrative, but not as a redemptive act, as he was already fully redeemed before he arrived on Exegol. As an act of atonement, its not done for any of those his actions as Kylo Ren actually harmed, and they'll never even know about it. What would have worked would have been him living and making amends for the rest of his life, which as a fundamentally good person, he would have happily done.
It would be funny if at the end of the video you said "oh guys there could be some spoilers in the video" and finish it like that
i feel like it would have been nice if ben had given, say, half of his life-force to revive rey and strengthen their force bond even further, then have the force dyad train the new generation of jedi
i mean i just love the idea that ben and rey’s lifelines are 100% linked, akin to bastila and revan, or meetra and kreia from KOTOR
Why did he have to die? Why couldn't she have saved him? I KNOW she could have!
Why are people so mad about spoilers, if you want to stay away from them so you can wait for dvd release then you shouldn't be following a STAR WARS lore channel that's just asking to be spoiled. It's basically the equivalent of going to a Star Wars forum expecting no spoilers.
I agree for the most part but I still think he could have lived. Ben could have parted ways with Rey on exogol and journeyed into the unknown regions going on a type of birrash(Ik I'm not spelling that right but that's what the jedi vader got his lightsaber from was doing) perhaps looking for some old jedi artifacts or trying to right some of his wrongs. He could be reintroduced years later as an older and wiser individual. Ben joins whatever main characters are on the next movie to stop the big threat. His arch could have been that even though he was redeemed not everyone can forgive him for what he did as kylo and maybe he could die in that story protecting some of the people who didn't trust him. I'm not trying to argue or anything and Eck is my number one SW youtuber but this is perhaps another way. I do like the concept of trading your life for redemption and I'm satisfied with it but Ben was a cool character and I'd liked to have seen more.
New idea for a Star Wars video: what if Qui-Gon Jin trained Anakin?
While I enjoyed your video and thought it was informative. I think the idea of a character's sacrifice, specifically in this case, sacrificing something to make their redemption feel earned, can only be done through their death. Is a very black and white approach to a character redemption. For me, some of the best redemption stories involve the character actively working to earn their redemption over time. Whether it's joining the good guys, or actively fighting the evil they used to support. Maybe it's just me, but I always felt that a villain dying in an act of redemption was more of a get out of jail free card. As compared to surviving, and having to face the consequences of their past misdeeds. In this case, Kylo having to confront the members of the Resistance, and consistently feeling the shame of his past sins.
In fairness though, a villain sacrificing themselves almost as a reversal to the reason they became a villain in the first place. Specifically Anakin, who was afraid of death but by saving his son Luke he overcame that fear. That was powerful. But I don't think Kylo was afraid to die in a sense, so his death doesn't feel nearly as powerful as Anakin's. Since for Kylo, he was never really on Palpatine's side, nor was he afraid to die in the first place, since he has no loved ones left to care for him. (And no Chewbacca doesn't count, they're not on good terms.
In conclusion, I think that a villain cannot be truly redeemed unless they actively work towards undoing the horrible things they've done before. While Vader's sacrifice was poetic, I don't think he was truly redeemed, rather Luke and by extension the light of the force, forgave him for his past crimes. As for Kylo Ren, his sacrifice wasn't as poetic as Vader's, nor did his redemption feel earned, since him dying means he got the easy way out. Especially since Kylo wasn't afraid to die, I mean he goes to the heart of darkness, and confronts Palpatine, a darkside demigod, on his own turf. Kylo was on the right path towards redemption, but he died too soon. So in conclusion, I feel strongly that Ben Solo DIDN'T have to die. Even giving up everything the way he did, is not good enough, IMO.
I love your videos so much. Thank you!
So reylo couldn’t be a thing
HOORAY!
It was a thing and wasn't
Anidala happened and then it didn't
You should take a look at IDWs Transformers Comics for how they handle the redemption of the likes of Megatron
0:41
George Lucas: Hold my beer. [Makes a billion changes]
I really like the format of this video!
I feel Hondo Ohnaka did get comeuppance in life. During the time of the Clone Wars, he was a renowned pirate who served all sides for profits. By the time of the Empire he's basically lost almost everything and when we see him in Rebels, is just a lower class smuggler struggling to make ends meet.
His allegiance to the Rebellion doesn't seem out of any particular goodwill either. At best, one of the several factions that are cashing in on their efforts. Like the Hidden Hand from Target Vader.
I disagree. I believe that Bens death makes this trilogy pointless. What did all our favorite hero’s die for? To save there son/nephew? No. And we are right back to where we were at the end of 6. Not even the new characters are happy. Rey spent the trilogy looking for the thing that’s missing in her life. And as soon as she finds it he’s taken away.
Thinking of it from a poetic sense;
Kylo Ren was Supreme Commander Snoke's apprentice.
Kyle Ren was Emperor's Palpatine's pawn.
But Ben Solo was also Han Solo and Leia Organa's SON.
And the part of Ben that was Han and Leia's son won out.....even ever everything.
Revan did just as bad if not worse and still got to live past Knight of the Old Republic 1.
As for staying dead, this is Star Wars, who stays dead? Maul, Boba Fett, Palpatine, Phasma, Ahsoka, etc.
The novel Star Wars: Lost Stars handles a similar character's ending so much better.
To me, redemption through death is SOOOOOOO overdone in Star Wars. That’s why I loved Luke’s arc in The Last Jedi. He failed as a Jedi Master and an uncle when he tried to murder Ben in his sleep. Realizing his mistake, he exiled himself to Ahch-To and cut himself off the Force as he couldn’t forgive himself for what he did. I would prefer Ben follow a similar path of exile (no pun intended).
In my opinion, I think it would’ve been better for Ben to survive. How his death happened in the film didn’t not help it in terms of the criticism that it’s a rehash of ROTJ.
For one, I think the best part of a redemption arc is atonement, where the redeemed works to repair the damage their actions inflicted. In Bens case this could be working to restore peace to the galaxy, tying into his conversation with Han about his mother’s dream. And even though the Rise of Kylo Ren comics show he didn’t destroy Luke’s temple, Ben helping rebuild the Jedi Order could be part of his ultimate redemption.
In regards to real world themes and messages, I think those would also be better served with his survival. Namely, I’ve read several essays by abuse survivors who tell how they relate with Ben Solo, with how he was the victim of Snokes grooming and manipulation, and after everything came to a head with Luke, was made to feel he had nowhere else to turn to. I feel Ben surviving, recognizing and overcoming the source of his torment, and being able to create a new life for himself afterwards would be a better sent message than the only way out for him was death.
In terms of the rest of the galaxy, how many people knew that Kylo Ren and Ben Solo were the same person? If Rey told everyone she killed Kylo Ren in their duel on Kef Beir (technically not a whole lie), how many people would for sure know different to counter the story told by the hero Jedi of the resistance?
You can have an interesting dialog with Kreia in kotor 2 about this. IIRC, her perspective is that "redemption" is a betrayal of one's self.
Normally I'd agree with you, but Ben's death still doesn't sit right with me. Vader died and it felt... justified. I was satisfied with how his story ended, but with Ben, I felt that loss so much more. He comes from a family that I love, so I wanted his redemption for the sake of the Skywalkers. After all, Leia, Han, and Luke ALL died trying to bring him back to the light, so to see their efforts finally pay off and then having him die 15 minutes later, not only felt like a waste of a really good character, but it made Leia, Luke, and Han's deaths have less meaning. We don't even see him as a Force Ghost, so it's like... damn, they died for no reason.