Here’s the difference between faith and trust: every church steeple has a lightning rod attached to it. They have faith in Jesus to save their souls, but they don’t trust him to protect the church. When it comes to saving the building they put their trust in science.
Excellent point. I’d be willing to wager they’d use the good ol ‘our church insurer required it’ excuse instead of putting ACTUAL faith in Santa Jesus or whoever th their belief is in. Hypocrites to the last.
And I'll bet most of those churches also have fire insurance on their buildings. Prayers to God are fine, but nothing rebuilds like a good insurance policy.
@LuthAMF I'll allow contrast, but it seems you're side stepping the issue of the original comment. You appear to have a habit of doing this, why is that? In my opinion, it's because you lack a valid rebuttal and instead resort to avoiding the issue, picking your fights, so to speak: the irony of this, you will rarely find a place to interject in any valid manner, because your position in this argument is NOT sound.
The core reason Matt is a personal hero of mine .. incredible patience & his endless knowledge on this subject allows me to avoid having to painstakingly research these arguments against religion myself. Kudos Matt Thanks for taking one after another for the A team ! 👍🏼
There's a good one Her: "so you have a condom? Guy: " no, dont worry though cause I havent seen any evidence that you'll get pregnant...based on faith.
Wow, tough crowd. Her: "You have a condom, right?" Him: "Don't worry, I've never impregnated you before so I have faith that you won't get pregnant now. It's simple statistics, baby."
So theists just ‘adopt’ ideas that they are told, rather than making the effort to study what their scripture actually says. Isn’t that being lazy then?
It's called indoctrination which starts at birth. Trust in our parents to teach us something is the truth is uninhibited by a lack of knowledge or ability to find the truth. The fact that religious scripture threaten you untold suffering if you apostate is good enough for many to be in fear of losing their family through being disowned.
That "no need to get defensive," cracked me up. The guy mentions projected and then immediately misinterprets their perfectly easygoing invitation to challenge them as defensiveness.
Nobody has ever arrived at Christian beliefs by "intellectual rigor." Intellectual rigor leads AWAY from Christian belief on all fronts, historical, logical and moral.
@LuthAMF How hypocritical is that, you claim God exists, without evidence and expect us to believe blindly along with you, mocking us because we don't. Pack it up everyone, LuthAMF has spoken.
@LuthAMF Okay, you say you don't believe blindly, please show me the demonstrative evidence that God exists, so we can all know that you aren't believing without evidence. It's not a concoction at all, it's a structured sentence that anybody can apply to anybody who is believing in something without demonstrative evidence. To believe something without having it first proven to you, is blind faith. That is irrefutable fact, unless you're speaking other form of the English language, unbeknownst to anyone else.
@LuthAMF Demonstrative evidence, you still haven't given any. You're blindly believing because you haven't seen evidence for what you believe. God HASN'T given all that is necessary, he hasn't given us anything. First prove God's existence, then we can evaluate if you are right on any of your other statements. If his revelation was perfect, nobody could deny God's existence, seeing as many people deny God's existence, his revelation is proven imperfect.
@LuthAMF “God has given all that’s necessary.” You didn’t prove any gods exist yet, child. You need to do that before you claim your imaginary friends gave you anything. It’s called basic logic.😏
@LuthAMF “ITS NOT MY EVIDENCE DUMBASS” Since YOU made the claim, you need to provide the evidence, dumbass. It’s called the burden of proof. When you get older, IF you ever decide to grow up, you’ll need to learn some logic.🙈
@@PrivateSi "able bodied". Spoken like a true ableist. Many people have "able" bodies. but disabled minds or mental illness or severe learning disabilities or are otherwise neurodivergent... It's called an invisible disability. Do me a favor and go fuck yourself if that's how you think of people who struggle to survive. You are the lazy one, intellectually ad ideologically lazy. I can guess at your political views.
@@VogtTD .. Your mind is in your body. I count neurological disorders as a physical disability to be more specific, including genuine severe depression. I have known 1000s of very lazy people gaming the system because I volunteered for homeless charities for quite a long time.. less than 10% weren't repeat offenders taking the piss. Cultural learning disabilities and psychological issues are no excuse for not getting out there. We have millions of Romanians doing jobs millions of lazy local dole addicts should be doing. You have no idea. There are probably many millions playing the system in the US. Low wage workers support them with their taxes.
@@PrivateSiThe brain is part of the body? No shit sherlock. Nothing you said negates your ableism. You actually believe the majority of people on public aid are taking advantage rather than being the exception? And all you can provide is anecdotal evidence and your assumptions about people from an outside perspective?
Because, as an atheist, I’m expected to understand physics, biology, psychology AND their bible. I’ll get bombarded with questions, until there’s one that I can’t answer and they’ll go “AHA!!! Terefore god exists!!!”
The great thing about being an atheist is that we have tools to determine truth vs fairy tales. Theists either don't have those tools or choose not to use them. Also, of you want to save data storage space, just remember the big parts of the bible, i.e.: something came from nothing (genesis), slavery (exodus 21), shellfish vs being gay vs wearing mixed fiber clothing (leviticus), how to buy slaves (also leviticus), and commanding slaves to remain subservient to their cruel masters (jesus' sermon on the mount) None of those can be reconciled by a logical and empathetic person.
I’ll say it again, faith is a lazy form of thinking, mostly because it requires very little. It takes more energy to think concretely about something than to simply say I have faith.
@@ralfhaggstrom9862 Why though ..... I just can't understand. They say he's mysterious ... I don't care for that much . It's like trying to guess who's in a clown suit .....I need someone who's going to be closer than that .
It would be hubris to assume any God would deign to even look our way, if I personally had the abilities God supposedly has, I for sure wouldn't waste my time on humanity, I'd have far better things to be doing.
I have "faith" that there is little "truth" to the Jesus story. I also have "faith" that the "true" speed of light is in the region of 300,000 km/s. Having fathered offspring I have "faith" that embryos are mostly "unseen", but can be detected with an ultra sound scan and other methods. I also have my "personal revelation" that a human child takes about 6 months to reach operatic decibel levels ! The caller frankly seemed a bit wooden.
" I am using etymology in my definition." So what? Etymologically the word "cynicism" meant something like "philosophy of dogs". Does that mean my bulldog can become a certified professor of philosophy?
The caller tried to go straight from "faith" to "confidence" on what he claimed are etymological grounds. It's not a straight path, and the parts that he glossed over are exactly the parts that should concern us. The English words "faith" and "fealty" originate in common from the Latin "fides" (loyalty.) It is, in a felt sense, a feudal relationship from the beginning. It's a kind of contract between parties who are about to enter into battle and wish to know how far they might rely on each other when things get ugly. Note that in particular this idea of faith or fealty requires AT LEAST two voluntary parties to the contract. It's not at all, not remotely, the personal sentiment of "I feel certain in my heart today that all will go well on the battlefield." You are making a DEAL or a promise of loyalty with some other party when you exercise "fides." Now, the caller skips all this absolutely ESSENTIAL root etymology and goes straight to a branch word "confidence." In modern times this has come to particularly mean an affirmative internal mental state, along the lines of "I feel certainty." Confidence as commonly used is a feeling tone, a private matter, not a contract in any sense. But it's fair to note that "confidence" originates as "con" (with) + "fides" (faith or fealty), in other words a derivative state of the root meaning. Having mutually declared their loyalty, the warriors go off to battle in a state of con-fid-ence in each other. They don't carry any new knowledge, except that they have heard claims of loyalty from each other, and this they try desperately to believe, NOT because they have been given good epistemic grounds for belief, but purely in order to psych themselves for battle. I really must applaud the caller for his condescending introduction to the etymology of "faith." He unwittingly REINFORCED the definition of faith as desperate belief, belief based on claims alone, feudal or contractual belief.
@LuthAMF I did answer it. I've looked at Aig (ridiculous), Johnathan Sarfati, Kent Hovind, ad nauseum. And claims without evidence can be summarily dismissed. I'm talking about real evidence, not Magic Jesus Finger type evidence. The world was created last Tuesday by my cat, which is the one true God. Can you debunk that? Ready, set, go!
"All the educated Christians understand that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John weren't written by the actual Mathew, Mark, Luke and John..." Loooooooong hilarious pause. Before he started speaking you just knew that this guy thinks that those gospels were written by the actual MML+J. That was epic.
Dave: *worries they might have narrow definitions. Also Dave: *has extremely narrow definition for "lazy". And probably others. Dave: have you heard the psychological term 'projection'? Me: Yeah, Dave. We see it now and then. Yeah, as hosts admit, guilty of it too. Also Dave: *Projects all over the damn place.
@Dave Hi Dave. How are you projecting? Well not in the way we are discussing here. I guess in a sense you've projected yourself into an ongoing discussion. Out of context. But injected or insinuated might be more appropriate. If your tongue isn't in cheek, I invite you to look at the title of this video. Oh. I'm presuming you are not same Dave. If so, my reply would be different.
@Dave Dude. That's a question that has compassed careers and books and eons to address. This is a thread on a page on UA-cam. And I have a life. A short answer wouldn't suffice. A long one would require far longer than a post deserves. Plus you sidestepped whether or not you are the Dave from the call. I suspect a) you're not; b) you joined UA-cam early enough to score a great nick. But now yt figures any time someone starts a sentence with "Dave" ...that that's people mentioning you. Then you go and "talk with your new friends" or whatever. And try to get them to spend much time. I'll pass.
@Dave Aha. So YT Dave is caller Dave? Fair enough. I had no way to know one or the other. But now I've got much to say...but a shitty keyboard. That's friction between length I want to write and what's practical. How do you project? This is pretty hilarious. As I recall from back when I viewed this clip, I noticed several. And of course you could just rewatch the parts where Matt pointed out your projection. But an example of my second point...was my first point. That you figured their definition was narrow...when it was yours that was narrow. Several others. But not gonna rewatch. And no doubt other folks have touched on some. And talking to me here. This is more theory of mind. But it overlaps with projection. You figure I *must* recognize you from elsewhere on this page. Dave. YOU may read this whole page. And comment all over it. Fair enough. The clip is of your call. I'd do likewise. IF it were my call. But to everyone but you it's just an AXP clip on UA-cam. I watch. I scan some comments. Maybe I interact a bit. Then I go do same on 50 other vids. You assuming I know this Dave is that Dave...COULD be because you know it. And are assuming that I must know it. And dealt with me with me based on that assumption. That's projection. Here was my Working Hypothesis on this low stakes issue. Odds that the person in all the world who got Dave YT nick 15 years ago calls into AXP and uses nick Dave? Non zero but really low. Alternative: this is UA-cam. Scenario I outlined with some guy trolling his nick...that, and similar, are the reality. Ockhams Razor. But also open to further input, evidence, assessment. Which has since happened. So okay, Dave is, at least probably, Dave. But in our convo, only your showing up implied it. Basically, only YOU figured it was established. In other news...you ask a question requiring a treatise answer. Then say "gee. Such a long answer to question I didn't ask." Yep. We get to choose what we reply to. And how long to make it. And I'm making this...just this long.
I make ten points. And answer the question you asked. You address none. And take a shot. Keep claiming you're interested in legit discussion Dave. Yeah. I'm done.
A play of chess..the caller is carefull..slowly he is trying to approach the queen..but the other side is ready for everything! The caller slowly steps into his own trap!
It is annoying but I just mute them and let them play. By not skipping the ad this channel gets more ad revenue from them, so the religious advertisements are helping to pay for the show. 😉
The algorithm chooses ads by the topic not the content. I know it's frustrating but Atheist videos will always have these ads because of topics atheists are discussing. One thing that can be done is for Atheists to pay for counter ads which would then appear on Theist videos.
I was once asked by a former significant other - "what's good friday about". She was a professed chatholic who went to church regularly and sat in the "cry room" with the other divorcees (who were directed to sit there during mass). There is sooo much wrong with all of this.
@@whispersmith it's a small room with like a couple couches or comfy chairs and I was told it's a place to take your crying baby during service, because there's a a window so you can still view the sermon and such. I only ever saw one in the last church I attended, thought it was a joke cause I'm dumb. Lol
This guy is very respectful and actually listens. I hate that that isn't the baseline expectation for a dialogue, but props for meeting that, Dave from Utah.
He did not listen. He pretended to listen, but in the end just believed what he already wanted to believe. I don't think he is actually that stupid, I think he pretended not to grasp it because that would mean conceding his point.
@@spaceghost8995 Well, listening and understanding are two different things. The guy, if I remember correctly since this was almost a year ago, did respond in a manner that indicated he wasn't just coming up with the next argument as the hosts were talking. I could be wrong though. Again, it's been almost a year.
You can tell the exact moment Dave realized his argument was in trouble . The stuttering and stammering starts the desperation set in and his own last statement was the nail in the coffin for his argument .
I really enjoy listening to this show. I want to Thank everyone for making this show available. I really enjoy how well Don Baker and Matt Dillahunty work together yall my favorite even though everyone of yall are amazing 👏
The awkward silence at 6:25 followed by the question "That depends if you belive the oral story was written by the person it is ascribed to". That made it very clear that he was one of those people that didn't know Mark Matthew Luke and John was not written by those people. Which is fine, but then he has audacity to accuse the hosts of being lazy and projecting that laziness on the caller, when he knew he was being lazy, proved with the example they brought up. The hypocricy is just palpable.
I gotta say, I love this call and caller. Caller is patient, non-combative, asks questions and listens to the answer and makes a Serious effort to understand and not be misunderstood or come off as condescending, arrogant or accusatory. Props to Dave, wish more people followed his example. Right up until the end, but still.
It was interesting hearing the caller put up his defenses, and then lower them, and then put them back up, over and over again as the call progressed. But of course, it ended with him shutting off his brain to try and make his point, I'm just grateful it turned out as funny as it did.
I love that analogy, so well explained and demonstrated, I copy it and translated into french/haitien creole to speak to those amputated brain Christians.
For the last part, I think it would have helped to explain the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning. Dave seemed to think that not having evidence that a future event will definitely occur equates to not being able to make a reasonable prediction based in probability.
One of my pet peeves (I have a lot) is that the atheists have read more of the Bible, more often, than any of the callers. I had a very good friend who was a pastor. (40 years ago) he believed in Christ but struggled because he admitted that many things in the Bible were problematic. He said the bad side of it was that the more he studied the more problems he found, the good side was that the more problems he found the more he had to think out his faith. He said the sad thing was his congregation didn't read enough to know there were problems, and when he raised them, they didn't want to know.
"and when he raised them, they didn't want to know." Yeah, willfull ignorance is a huge part of religiosity. You have to suspend your disbelif before starting to believe and keep supressing it until you die or deconvert. You can see this in the comments here all the time. There's a bunch of people arguing for the existence of god, when these videos show so very, very clear that this belief is not rooted in reality. And that not even touchung upon the fact that, should their god actually be real, it's an absolute monster not worthy of worship.
Dave's example of having a child in the future as an example of "faith"- he is demonstrating the reasoning of my 1st grade daughter. this was the whole point of the original topic about being intellectually lazy. Dave should strive to use the reasoning skills of my 8th grader instead
I was a high ranking union official for 40 years at a multi billion dollar corporation and where I worked there were 3000 employees. Of the laziest christians I had been around are the ones trying to save everyone at work. Did little or no work and in the 40 years not one was brought up on refusing services or in other words being worthless. Think the company was afraid to ask them to work in fear of the bible thumpers claiming religious persecution. I could not imagine that these soul savers cared less about receiving wages and not working for these wages. Guess they missed the commandment of thou shalt not steal
the psychological reality of projection fits in perfectly with x-tianity= i am psychologically needy and frightened, therefore i project the supposed "reality" of a comforting imaginary "dad"
The reason why most religious people in general know less about their own books than atheists is because when you go to church preachers cherry pick what they want to tell you each week and only speak on how they think that particular verse fits their personal narrative. They never start from the beginning and work all the way to the end of all the books. They have a feeling that day they pick a sermon and then they spit it out. The flock soaks it up, doesn't think to read the rest and take everything their pastor says as the word of God.
Robert Heinlein came up with an interesting idea is Stranger In A Strange Land. There were trained observers called Fair Witnesses. They were trained to witness things and to report on what they witnessed. If you showed them a white ball, then asked them what they saw, they would say they saw a ball which was white on the side they saw. If they were asked what color the other side was, they would say "Unknown" unless they had seen the other side.
By Dave’s logic, if you jump off a building and hit the ground at 100mph, you have faith that your head will implode, because you don’t have any evidence of a future event.
My definition of faith as used by Jesus, is the power to move objects by command. A four year old child with faith as a grain of mustard seed can do it. All we need now is a four year old child. (Matthew 17:20 and Luke 17:6)
Faith (confidence) is usually based on evidence. I have faith that this message will be posted, because my messages nearly always get posted. But my faith is not THE evidence, which is the point Matt is making.
I've watched many episodes of this show. This is one of those that I wish Matt would have let this guy finish digging his hole. It would've been epic. "Since I can have faith in a child that has not even been conceived, then I can certainly be justified to have faith the 2nd coming is gonna happen". I think that's where he was heading. The contortions this smart sounding people have to go through to to hold on to something untenable still amazes me.
This guy, Dave, was owned, mainly by Matt but Don got in some good licks, from the beginning. He didn't go easily though. Put up a brave fight. But, alas...
@Toughen Up, Fluffy If your referring to Christian blind faith, yes very correct. The problem with America is Christianity, especially the evangelicals that 61% support the fat porker president. Be prepared, the US is heading to a painful Dystopia.
@LuthAMF Christanity is devoid of truths and makes false claims: No virgin birth! (The word virgin was miss- translated from the Hebrew word of "Young Woman". No resurrection! A myth created by Paul. The Romans executed Christ as a criminal, by crucifixion a common Roman method, which left the body on the cross then taken down and buried in a common mass grave. The empty tomb is another myth to counter the explanation that the body of Christ was stolen by his followers. So principles based on these lies cannot but influence the white supremacists to anarchy and insurrection. The dead Jesus will not save you. Chris Hedges as predicted: "Fascism will come to America bearing the Christian cross" Progressive policies have always come from the left: i.e, Roosevelt's new deal; Woman's right to vote; civil rights; Moreover, "Progressive and Social political movements to represent the interests of ordinary people through political change and the support of government actions". Lastly, empty religious pronouncements will not bring about real spirituality.
Trust- 1. Wife gets pregnant and has a human baby.. 2. The chair holds my weight. 3. Steve Jobs and his team invented the IPod. Faith - 1. Wife gives birth to a cat. 2. The invisible chair holds my weight. 3. Leonardo Da Vinci invented the first Ipod.
For each of the questions in this set, the mean of the Gaussian was higher in demographic a than in demographic b, where demographic b is {self-identified as non-believer} and demographic b is {self-identified as believer}. Frankly, the amount of effort some put into apologetic is quite impressive. If they invested that much effort in education, they'd be a force.
I'm what some would categorize as a "Follower of Christ" or "Christian" who has, if you will, began to see holes in my religion as well as adopted beliefs and this discussion on faith was definitely eye opening. Matt makes total sense. Dave seems to be grabbing for straws. Amazing how after thousands of years Christians aren't equipped to sensibly and logically combat the likes of Matt and Don....it's just more concrete evidence in itself that...what I've believed isn't based in reality at all.
He created the perfect argument against himself. To have "faith" that your wife will bare a child is not guaranteed, same as the faith he has that his religion will save his eternal soul is not guaranteed.
This business about who actually wrote the four canonical gospels reminds me of what the late comedian Peter Cooke used to say: the plays of William Shakespeare weren’t written by him at all; they were written by another man of the same name.
TickerTaallick well, someone should have explained to that man how a pen name actually works!! Actually, I prefer to use the phrase “nom de plume”; it makes me sound so much more erudite, don’cha think?
He legit thought Don was saying Christians didn’t do their chores. 😂
Lol
think he thought Christians were all out of work with handouts from the government
Here’s the difference between faith and trust: every church steeple has a lightning rod attached to it. They have faith in Jesus to save their souls, but they don’t trust him to protect the church. When it comes to saving the building they put their trust in science.
Excellent point. I’d be willing to wager they’d use the good ol ‘our church insurer required it’ excuse instead of putting ACTUAL faith in Santa Jesus or whoever th their belief is in.
Hypocrites
to the last.
And I'll bet most of those churches also have fire insurance on their buildings.
Prayers to God are fine, but nothing rebuilds like a good insurance policy.
Do a quick search on Big Butter Jesus. Worth it.
@LuthAMF
Comparison of what?
He never attempted to make a comparison, he made a statement.
@LuthAMF
I'll allow contrast, but it seems you're side stepping the issue of the original comment.
You appear to have a habit of doing this, why is that?
In my opinion, it's because you lack a valid rebuttal and instead resort to avoiding the issue, picking your fights, so to speak: the irony of this, you will rarely find a place to interject in any valid manner, because your position in this argument is NOT sound.
The patience it takes to be a host on these shows......Wow.
Joe Russo It takes enough just to listen to some of these callers! 😂
The core reason Matt is a personal hero of mine .. incredible patience & his endless knowledge on this subject allows me to avoid having to painstakingly research these arguments against religion myself.
Kudos Matt
Thanks for taking one after another for the A team !
👍🏼
You bet. I am a geologist and a peacefull man but sometimes I feel like tracing calls and shooting people.
It was like scraping my balls over hot coals and took 10 lifetimes to get there but when we finally got to the end it was fucking brilliant
@@josefonseca4155 Or let them "swim with the fishes" ..................
There's a good one
Her: "so you have a condom?
Guy: " no, dont worry though cause I havent seen any evidence that you'll get pregnant...based on faith.
Unfortunately that happens in reality way too often.
Wow, tough crowd.
Her: "You have a condom, right?"
Him: "Don't worry, I've never impregnated you before so I have faith that you won't get pregnant now.
It's simple statistics, baby."
Here's the Africa version:
Her: "so do you have a condom?"
Him: "LOL no, contraception is sin, here have some AIDS instead."
And that’s how the dumb ones out bread the rest of us.
@@dontimberman5493 out *bred*
"Your premise or your presupposition"
Theists just can't resist the temptation to try to sneak lies into their statements and questions.
This guy doesn't know what a presupposition is, but he knows he doesn't like it being applied to him.
The caller spoke of intellectual rigour...if one applies any intellectual rigour to any religion, it falls apart very quickly.
Religions are Intellectual oppression .............
Rigor: Mortis Religiae?
Very true, study helped make an atheist.
Preach, brother.
That was amazing to listen to. The caller sounded intellectual but went down the hill pretty fast, tripping over himself 🤣
think he thought mark matthew luke john were written by mark matthew luke and john
@@paulrichards6894 the moment of silence was very telling and from that point he went into "defense mode"
@@ashley1570 oh ya totally! The sounds gears grinding and smell of smoke was kind of a give away.
They always do!
So theists just ‘adopt’ ideas that they are told, rather than making the effort to study what their scripture actually says. Isn’t that being lazy then?
It's called indoctrination which starts at birth. Trust in our parents to teach us something is the truth is uninhibited by a lack of knowledge or ability to find the truth. The fact that religious scripture threaten you untold suffering if you apostate is good enough for many to be in fear of losing their family through being disowned.
@XICODECOPA Well, yeah, and?
That "no need to get defensive," cracked me up. The guy mentions projected and then immediately misinterprets their perfectly easygoing invitation to challenge them as defensiveness.
Mind games.
Please give me your possibly alternate perspective: openness
I’m not lazy!: defensive
Caller was being a bit facetious here
I am a really lazy atheist. Lol
Nobody has ever arrived at Christian beliefs by "intellectual rigor." Intellectual rigor leads AWAY from Christian belief on all fronts, historical, logical and moral.
@LuthAMF
How hypocritical is that, you claim God exists, without evidence and expect us to believe blindly along with you, mocking us because we don't.
Pack it up everyone, LuthAMF has spoken.
@LuthAMF
Okay, you say you don't believe blindly, please show me the demonstrative evidence that God exists, so we can all know that you aren't believing without evidence.
It's not a concoction at all, it's a structured sentence that anybody can apply to anybody who is believing in something without demonstrative evidence.
To believe something without having it first proven to you, is blind faith. That is irrefutable fact, unless you're speaking other form of the English language, unbeknownst to anyone else.
@LuthAMF
Demonstrative evidence, you still haven't given any.
You're blindly believing because you haven't seen evidence for what you believe.
God HASN'T given all that is necessary, he hasn't given us anything.
First prove God's existence, then we can evaluate if you are right on any of your other statements.
If his revelation was perfect, nobody could deny God's existence, seeing as many people deny God's existence, his revelation is proven imperfect.
@LuthAMF “God has given all that’s necessary.”
You didn’t prove any gods exist yet, child. You need to do that before you claim your imaginary friends gave you anything. It’s called basic logic.😏
@LuthAMF “ITS NOT MY EVIDENCE DUMBASS”
Since YOU made the claim, you need to provide the evidence, dumbass. It’s called the burden of proof. When you get older, IF you ever decide to grow up, you’ll need to learn some logic.🙈
A perfect example of when you’re trying to be too clever and end up giving Matt punchline gold! 😂
the guy had an high opinion of himself
Very telling that he assumed lazy = unemployed. Typical casual ableism...
Agreed. I rolled my eyes and shook my head at that. :)
Most able bodied unemployed people are very lazy compared to hard working tax payers.
@@PrivateSi "able bodied". Spoken like a true ableist. Many people have "able" bodies. but disabled minds or mental illness or severe learning disabilities or are otherwise neurodivergent... It's called an invisible disability. Do me a favor and go fuck yourself if that's how you think of people who struggle to survive. You are the lazy one, intellectually ad ideologically lazy. I can guess at your political views.
@@VogtTD .. Your mind is in your body. I count neurological disorders as a physical disability to be more specific, including genuine severe depression. I have known 1000s of very lazy people gaming the system because I volunteered for homeless charities for quite a long time.. less than 10% weren't repeat offenders taking the piss. Cultural learning disabilities and psychological issues are no excuse for not getting out there. We have millions of Romanians doing jobs millions of lazy local dole addicts should be doing. You have no idea. There are probably many millions playing the system in the US. Low wage workers support them with their taxes.
@@PrivateSiThe brain is part of the body? No shit sherlock. Nothing you said negates your ableism. You actually believe the majority of people on public aid are taking advantage rather than being the exception? And all you can provide is anecdotal evidence and your assumptions about people from an outside perspective?
Because, as an atheist, I’m expected to understand physics, biology, psychology AND their bible. I’ll get bombarded with questions, until there’s one that I can’t answer and they’ll go “AHA!!! Terefore god exists!!!”
The great thing about being an atheist is that we have tools to determine truth vs fairy tales. Theists either don't have those tools or choose not to use them.
Also, of you want to save data storage space, just remember the big parts of the bible, i.e.: something came from nothing (genesis), slavery (exodus 21), shellfish vs being gay vs wearing mixed fiber clothing (leviticus), how to buy slaves (also leviticus), and commanding slaves to remain subservient to their cruel masters (jesus' sermon on the mount) None of those can be reconciled by a logical and empathetic person.
@@EustaBAracer great post. Thank you.
I’ll say it again, faith is a lazy form of thinking, mostly because it requires very little. It takes more energy to think concretely about something than to simply say I have faith.
Faith requires n o t h i n g except "I do."
@XICODECOPA Why the upper case? Quit shouting. I find all the "holy" books infantile as I do the notion of spiritual faith and anointed infallibility.
WOW Matt ...that was a great explanation of faith, hope, and truth!!
If there is a God , he's seriously lazy .
Does not ever feel to show himself, ...............
@@ralfhaggstrom9862 Why though ..... I just can't understand. They say he's mysterious ... I don't care for that much . It's like trying to guess who's in a clown suit .....I need someone who's going to be closer than that .
@@jannellecox3202 Dear Jannelle C, exactly ! ...... Take care: Ralf ...........
It's Sunday every day 🤣🙏🏾
It would be hubris to assume any God would deign to even look our way, if I personally had the abilities God supposedly has, I for sure wouldn't waste my time on humanity, I'd have far better things to be doing.
It was such a good conversation until Dave revealed he doesn't understand the difference between faith and evidence from previous data.
@@kentonbaird1723
Wait, does that mean he's as stupid as the Abridged series of Dragonball z's version of Goku?? LMFAO 😭😭
The best explanation of “faith” I’ve heard Matt make 👍
Yes.
Trust is belief based on reasonable evidence.
Biblical faith (aka make-belief) is the Christian substitute for this reasonable evidence.
I have "faith" that there is little "truth" to the Jesus story. I also have "faith" that the "true" speed of light is in the region of 300,000 km/s. Having fathered offspring I have "faith" that embryos are mostly "unseen", but can be detected with an ultra sound scan and other methods. I also have my "personal revelation" that a human child takes about 6 months to reach operatic decibel levels ! The caller frankly seemed a bit wooden.
" I am using etymology in my definition." So what? Etymologically the word "cynicism" meant something like "philosophy of dogs". Does that mean my bulldog can become a certified professor of philosophy?
The caller tried to go straight from "faith" to "confidence" on what he claimed are etymological grounds.
It's not a straight path, and the parts that he glossed over are exactly the parts that should concern us.
The English words "faith" and "fealty" originate in common from the Latin "fides" (loyalty.) It is, in a felt sense, a feudal relationship from the beginning. It's a kind of contract between parties who are about to enter into battle and wish to know how far they might rely on each other when things get ugly.
Note that in particular this idea of faith or fealty requires AT LEAST two voluntary parties to the contract. It's not at all, not remotely, the personal sentiment of "I feel certain in my heart today that all will go well on the battlefield." You are making a DEAL or a promise of loyalty with some other party when you exercise "fides."
Now, the caller skips all this absolutely ESSENTIAL root etymology and goes straight to a branch word "confidence." In modern times this has come to particularly mean an affirmative internal mental state, along the lines of "I feel certainty." Confidence as commonly used is a feeling tone, a private matter, not a contract in any sense.
But it's fair to note that "confidence" originates as "con" (with) + "fides" (faith or fealty), in other words a derivative state of the root meaning. Having mutually declared their loyalty, the warriors go off to battle in a state of con-fid-ence in each other. They don't carry any new knowledge, except that they have heard claims of loyalty from each other, and this they try desperately to believe, NOT because they have been given good epistemic grounds for belief, but purely in order to psych themselves for battle.
I really must applaud the caller for his condescending introduction to the etymology of "faith." He unwittingly REINFORCED the definition of faith as desperate belief, belief based on claims alone, feudal or contractual belief.
If theists weren't lazy about doing the work they would be athiests.
@LuthAMF I've read a ton of your apologetic drivel. It's for idiots.
@LuthAMF Claims without evidence are summarily dismissed.
@LuthAMF I did answer it. I've looked at Aig (ridiculous), Johnathan Sarfati, Kent Hovind, ad nauseum.
And claims without evidence can be summarily dismissed. I'm talking about real evidence, not Magic Jesus Finger type evidence.
The world was created last Tuesday by my cat, which is the one true God. Can you debunk that? Ready, set, go!
@LuthAMF Oh the irony.
@LuthAMF Enjoy your delusions.
Wow, I’ve been watching this show so long, I word for word could have given Matt’s 3 definitions he gave of faith, hope, and truth.
It’s interesting how reliable the use of a smarmy voice is to the eventual realization that an individual is disconnected from reality.
10, 000 nerd points to Matt for referencing Fry & Laurie "School Principal" sketch!!!
the headmaster and the pupil?! where in the video? i missed it
"All the educated Christians understand that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John weren't written by the actual Mathew, Mark, Luke and John..."
Loooooooong hilarious pause.
Before he started speaking you just knew that this guy thinks that those gospels were written by the actual MML+J. That was epic.
Jerry doesn't.
Well then Jerry's not a twoo educated Christian.
think the pause was because he didnt want to look an idiot
Dave: *worries they might have narrow definitions.
Also Dave: *has extremely narrow definition for "lazy". And probably others.
Dave: have you heard the psychological term 'projection'?
Me: Yeah, Dave. We see it now and then. Yeah, as hosts admit, guilty of it too.
Also Dave: *Projects all over the damn place.
@Dave Hi Dave. How are you projecting? Well not in the way we are discussing here. I guess in a sense you've projected yourself into an ongoing discussion. Out of context. But injected or insinuated might be more appropriate.
If your tongue isn't in cheek, I invite you to look at the title of this video. Oh. I'm presuming you are not same Dave. If so, my reply would be different.
@Dave Dude. That's a question that has compassed careers and books and eons to address. This is a thread on a page on UA-cam. And I have a life.
A short answer wouldn't suffice. A long one would require far longer than a post deserves.
Plus you sidestepped whether or not you are the Dave from the call. I suspect a) you're not;
b) you joined UA-cam early enough to score a great nick. But now yt figures any time someone starts a sentence with "Dave" ...that that's people mentioning you. Then you go and "talk with your new friends" or whatever. And try to get them to spend much time.
I'll pass.
@Dave
Aha. So YT Dave is caller Dave? Fair enough. I had no way to know one or the other. But now I've got much to say...but a shitty keyboard. That's friction between length I want to write and what's practical.
How do you project? This is pretty hilarious. As I recall from back when I viewed this clip, I noticed several. And of course you could just rewatch the parts where Matt pointed out your projection.
But an example of my second point...was my first point. That you figured their definition was narrow...when it was yours that was narrow.
Several others. But not gonna rewatch. And no doubt other folks have touched on some.
And talking to me here. This is more theory of mind. But it overlaps with projection. You figure I *must* recognize you from elsewhere on this page. Dave. YOU may read this whole page. And comment all over it. Fair enough. The clip is of your call. I'd do likewise.
IF it were my call.
But to everyone but you it's just an AXP clip on UA-cam.
I watch. I scan some comments. Maybe I interact a bit. Then I go do same on 50 other vids. You assuming I know this Dave is that Dave...COULD be because you know it. And are assuming that I must know it. And dealt with me with me based on that assumption. That's projection.
Here was my Working Hypothesis on this low stakes issue. Odds that the person in all the world who got Dave YT nick 15 years ago calls into AXP and uses nick Dave? Non zero but really low.
Alternative: this is UA-cam. Scenario I outlined with some guy trolling his nick...that, and similar, are the reality. Ockhams Razor.
But also open to further input, evidence, assessment. Which has since happened. So okay, Dave is, at least probably, Dave. But in our convo, only your showing up implied it.
Basically, only YOU figured it was established.
In other news...you ask a question requiring a treatise answer. Then say "gee. Such a long answer to question I didn't ask." Yep. We get to choose what we reply to. And how long to make it.
And I'm making this...just this long.
I make ten points. And answer the question you asked.
You address none. And take a shot. Keep claiming you're interested in legit discussion Dave. Yeah. I'm done.
A play of chess..the caller is carefull..slowly he is trying to approach the queen..but the other side is ready for everything! The caller slowly steps into his own trap!
This call is turning out better than it started lol
Im annoyed by the fact that im getting an ad before this that starts with some religious dude saying "Atheism implies that life is meaningless"
Lmao I just got the same one
It is annoying but I just mute them and let them play. By not skipping the ad this channel gets more ad revenue from them, so the religious advertisements are helping to pay for the show. 😉
Get an adblocker !
@@tonydarcy1606 Watching on my phone. Phone is roughly 6 years old and cant download anything to it because storage is out.
The algorithm chooses ads by the topic not the content. I know it's frustrating but Atheist videos will always have these ads because of topics atheists are discussing. One thing that can be done is for Atheists to pay for counter ads which would then appear on Theist videos.
I was once asked by a former significant other - "what's good friday about". She was a professed chatholic who went to church regularly and sat in the "cry room" with the other divorcees (who were directed to sit there during mass). There is sooo much wrong with all of this.
What in the hell is a cry room
@@whispersmith it's a small room with like a couple couches or comfy chairs and I was told it's a place to take your crying baby during service, because there's a a window so you can still view the sermon and such.
I only ever saw one in the last church I attended, thought it was a joke cause I'm dumb. Lol
This guy is very respectful and actually listens. I hate that that isn't the baseline expectation for a dialogue, but props for meeting that, Dave from Utah.
He did not listen. He pretended to listen, but in the end just believed what he already wanted to believe. I don't think he is actually that stupid, I think he pretended not to grasp it because that would mean conceding his point.
@@spaceghost8995 Well, listening and understanding are two different things. The guy, if I remember correctly since this was almost a year ago, did respond in a manner that indicated he wasn't just coming up with the next argument as the hosts were talking.
I could be wrong though. Again, it's been almost a year.
You can tell the exact moment Dave realized his argument was in trouble . The stuttering and stammering starts the desperation set in and his own last statement was the nail in the coffin for his argument .
“Are you sure you’re not projecting?”
“Yes”
“Whoa no need to be so defensive”
This is such gross manipulative gaslighting
Maybe they are not using the correct “entrance”.
I really enjoy listening to this show. I want to Thank everyone for making this show available. I really enjoy how well Don Baker and Matt Dillahunty work together yall my favorite even though everyone of yall are amazing 👏
He said "Fry and Laurie" 👏👏❤❤.
*starts UA-cam binge of late-20th century comedy duos.
Using "topic" in place of conclusion...awesome this will be fun
Matt's explanation of the way faith is bandied about by xchins is excellent
Yay Don is back!!! I missed him, shame he doesn’t to Atheist Experience as much now, he’s brilliant.
No one has faith in God. They have faith in the person that told them about God.
Wow. I'm going to use this example from now on. Thanks for this comment. ✌👍😉
The awkward silence at 6:25 followed by the question "That depends if you belive the oral story was written by the person it is ascribed to". That made it very clear that he was one of those people that didn't know Mark Matthew Luke and John was not written by those people. Which is fine, but then he has audacity to accuse the hosts of being lazy and projecting that laziness on the caller, when he knew he was being lazy, proved with the example they brought up. The hypocricy is just palpable.
Learned so much with your program today. Philisophy is dense.
I gotta say, I love this call and caller. Caller is patient, non-combative, asks questions and listens to the answer and makes a Serious effort to understand and not be misunderstood or come off as condescending, arrogant or accusatory. Props to Dave, wish more people followed his example. Right up until the end, but still.
It was interesting hearing the caller put up his defenses, and then lower them, and then put them back up, over and over again as the call progressed. But of course, it ended with him shutting off his brain to try and make his point, I'm just grateful it turned out as funny as it did.
I love that analogy, so well explained and demonstrated, I copy it and translated into french/haitien creole to speak to those amputated brain Christians.
For the last part, I think it would have helped to explain the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning. Dave seemed to think that not having evidence that a future event will definitely occur equates to not being able to make a reasonable prediction based in probability.
"Send her a box of chocolates and a card".... pissed myself right there.
One of my pet peeves (I have a lot) is that the atheists have read more of the Bible, more often, than any of the callers. I had a very good friend who was a pastor. (40 years ago) he believed in Christ but struggled because he admitted that many things in the Bible were problematic. He said the bad side of it was that the more he studied the more problems he found, the good side was that the more problems he found the more he had to think out his faith. He said the sad thing was his congregation didn't read enough to know there were problems, and when he raised them, they didn't want to know.
"and when he raised them, they didn't want to know."
Yeah, willfull ignorance is a huge part of religiosity. You have to suspend your disbelif before starting to believe and keep supressing it until you die or deconvert. You can see this in the comments here all the time. There's a bunch of people arguing for the existence of god, when these videos show so very, very clear that this belief is not rooted in reality.
And that not even touchung upon the fact that, should their god actually be real, it's an absolute monster not worthy of worship.
Dave's example of having a child in the future as an example of "faith"- he is demonstrating the reasoning of my 1st grade daughter. this was the whole point of the original topic about being intellectually lazy. Dave should strive to use the reasoning skills of my 8th grader instead
I smell projection, presupposition and laziness coming from this caller. Which is all slightly ironic.
Matt was genius in his describing Faith & Trust
I was a high ranking union official for 40 years at a multi billion dollar corporation and where I worked there were 3000 employees. Of the laziest christians I had been around are the ones trying to save everyone at work. Did little or no work and in the 40 years not one was brought up on refusing services or in other words being worthless. Think the company was afraid to ask them to work in fear of the bible thumpers claiming religious persecution. I could not imagine that these soul savers cared less about receiving wages and not working for these wages. Guess they missed the commandment of thou shalt not steal
the psychological reality of projection fits in perfectly with x-tianity= i am psychologically needy and frightened, therefore i project the supposed "reality" of a comforting imaginary "dad"
The way he says "Ooh! Ooohhkay!" is akin to fingers on a chalkboard.
Funny how often the fallback position of “I’m not sure that verse was properly translated” is presented.
"intellectually lazy"
there, entire area of confusion cleared up
The reason why most religious people in general know less about their own books than atheists is because when you go to church preachers cherry pick what they want to tell you each week and only speak on how they think that particular verse fits their personal narrative. They never start from the beginning and work all the way to the end of all the books. They have a feeling that day they pick a sermon and then they spit it out. The flock soaks it up, doesn't think to read the rest and take everything their pastor says as the word of God.
it's been said " a walk through the oceans of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet".
Robert Heinlein came up with an interesting idea is Stranger In A Strange Land. There were trained observers called Fair Witnesses. They were trained to witness things and to report on what they witnessed. If you showed them a white ball, then asked them what they saw, they would say they saw a ball which was white on the side they saw. If they were asked what color the other side was, they would say "Unknown" unless they had seen the other side.
By Dave’s logic, if you jump off a building and hit the ground at 100mph, you have faith that your head will implode, because you don’t have any evidence of a future event.
“Adoption” is so much more voluntary sounding than “indoctrination”.
he seemed pretty honest in his apporach but the end was absolute fking gold
"I won't have sex with my wife."
Thank you.
Matt is armed with cheese and a mouse trap.
Christians flock to the cheese and snap, snap, snap.
Fry and Laurie, nice referencing Matt!
A Bit of Fry and Laurie: genius 👍
I loved the end of this conversation 😂
Maybe his wife has faith in the pill.
😄
Extra points for the Frye and Laurie reference.
matt mentioning fry and laurie lol not seen that show for years
My definition of faith as used by Jesus, is the power to move objects by command.
A four year old child with faith as a grain of mustard seed can do it.
All we need now is a four year old child.
(Matthew 17:20 and Luke 17:6)
Faith (confidence) is usually based on evidence.
I have faith that this message will be posted, because my messages nearly always get posted.
But my faith is not THE evidence, which is the point Matt is making.
I've watched many episodes of this show. This is one of those that I wish Matt would have let this guy finish digging his hole. It would've been epic.
"Since I can have faith in a child that has not even been conceived, then I can certainly be justified to have faith the 2nd coming is gonna happen". I think that's where he was heading. The contortions this smart sounding people have to go through to to hold on to something untenable still amazes me.
Just a short question. Define faith. And hope. And Truth.
Learning science is top of the list for most Christians. It requires education and the US seems to be far down the line for that.
Define "most"?
nonsense
This guy, Dave, was owned, mainly by Matt but Don got in some good licks, from the beginning. He didn't go easily though. Put up a brave fight. But, alas...
15:30 - 17:30 that was brilliantly laid out.
Sometimes hope is just is just disappointment deferred
Wow. A classic head-scratcher. Like...what? Love Don's laughter.
studying the bible and bible history is exactly what got me out of christianity.
This guy is one of the smarter callers I've heard on this channel, and they still came across as extremely dense.
These bible beliving Christians are stuck in blind beliefs, falling in the ditch of ignorance. By the way, Don your terrific!
@Toughen Up, Fluffy
If your referring to Christian blind faith, yes very correct. The problem with America is Christianity, especially the evangelicals that 61% support the fat porker president. Be prepared, the US is heading to a painful Dystopia.
@LuthAMF
Christanity is devoid of truths and makes false claims:
No virgin birth!
(The word virgin was miss- translated from the Hebrew word of "Young Woman".
No resurrection!
A myth created by Paul. The Romans executed Christ as a criminal, by crucifixion a common Roman method, which left the body on the cross then taken down and buried in a common mass grave. The empty tomb is another myth to counter the explanation that the body of Christ was stolen by his followers.
So principles based on these lies cannot but influence the white supremacists to anarchy and insurrection.
The dead Jesus will not save you.
Chris Hedges as predicted: "Fascism will come to America bearing the Christian cross"
Progressive policies have always come from the left:
i.e, Roosevelt's new deal; Woman's right to vote; civil rights; Moreover, "Progressive and Social political movements to represent the interests of ordinary people through political change and the support of government actions".
Lastly, empty religious pronouncements will not bring about real spirituality.
The caller's just saying God is the existence of Love. Everybody believes Love exists
The ending was awesome
Rush isn't peddling it anymore.
"I won't have sex with my wife, then." Lmao
Trust- 1. Wife gets pregnant and has a human baby.. 2. The chair holds my weight. 3. Steve Jobs and his team invented the IPod.
Faith - 1. Wife gives birth to a cat. 2. The invisible chair holds my weight.
3. Leonardo Da Vinci invented the first Ipod.
If you don't know anything about what you calim to follow, then you're not following it because you don't know what to follow....
Dave ironically coming to a satisfying revelation at the end even if its not the correct one, I hope he follows through.
I think this is the episode that broke Don. He retired soon after.
The fact that this somehow escalated to "I won't have sex with my wife" is the most solid comedy gold I've seen all week. ='D
For each of the questions in this set, the mean of the Gaussian was higher in demographic a than in demographic b, where demographic b is {self-identified as non-believer} and demographic b is {self-identified as believer}.
Frankly, the amount of effort some put into apologetic is quite impressive. If they invested that much effort in education, they'd be a force.
Christian: Why do you say Christians are lazy?
Don: Why don't you give me an example.
Christian: No, you tell me
19:45 Love love LOVE the Fry & Laurie reference!
This really sounds like Darth Dawkins to me.
Don's explosion at the end lmao
I'm what some would categorize as a "Follower of Christ" or "Christian" who has, if you will, began to see holes in my religion as well as adopted beliefs and this discussion on faith was definitely eye opening. Matt makes total sense. Dave seems to be grabbing for straws. Amazing how after thousands of years Christians aren't equipped to sensibly and logically combat the likes of Matt and Don....it's just more concrete evidence in itself that...what I've believed isn't based in reality at all.
He created the perfect argument against himself. To have "faith" that your wife will bare a child is not guaranteed, same as the faith he has that his religion will save his eternal soul is not guaranteed.
The root of faith isn't confidi. It's Fides.
The proof is not in the pudding, the proof of the pudding is in tasting the pudding.
This business about who actually wrote the four canonical gospels reminds me of what the late comedian Peter Cooke used to say: the plays of William Shakespeare weren’t written by him at all; they were written by another man of the same name.
TickerTaallick well, someone should have explained to that man how a pen name actually works!! Actually, I prefer to use the phrase “nom de plume”; it makes me sound so much more erudite, don’cha think?