If you were responsible for the edit of this serial, my hat off to do you! I'm an old school Doctor Who (my earliest memories are of Tom Baker serials) and I thought it was excellent. Bravo and I look forward to more!
Wendy Padbury said "Matt reminds me of Pat". And she should know better than anyone because not only did she play Zoe alongside Pat but she went on to become Matt's agent.
Troughton is to my mind the definative doctor. All the "Doctory" attributes - Catch Phrases, Costuming, Prop use, Running, it all started in his era. Every doctor after him has been pulling on threads Pat left. Hartnell might have been first, but Pat made the role what it is..
@ I can respect the sentiment, I feel he definitely laid out the ground work though every doctor has added many little quirks here or there, personally Pertwee and McCoy are my favorite classic doctors, I liked kinda bond-like nature of 3 and the Whimsicalness of 7 and I enjoy their stories. But I definitely appreciate most actors carrying over those doctor defining manners each built upon. I was happy when Capaldi brought back the musical nature of the doctor, but I just love Capaldi in general though he’s been my favorite doctor since series 8 aired, he literally embodies the doctor as a being so perfectly!
The rationale for 6b is not that The Second Doctor has aged, it's that his appearance in later stories are only possible if the events of the War Games have already taken place. In The Five Doctors, confronted by illusions of Jamie and Zoe he remembers the Time Lords wiped their memories of him (not 100% correct, but how would he think that if he's from before it happened?), in the Two Doctors he's explicitly on a mission for the Time Lords, which of course would be impossible at any point prior to his revealing his location at the end of the War Games and in the Three Doctors he talks about how the Time lords have extracted him from his place in the timestream, again something that's only possible after they'd located him. The only consistent story is that his forced regeneration was interrupted by an unknown but obviously Time Lord agent who then delayed its completion while he operated on their behalf. Then, all three of those multi-Doctor stories make sense.
As a watcher of the classic series my only issue with the coloured version of "The War Games" was when they decided to use the actors and actress of modern who. I feel like it would have been much better if they used random people to imply it's still quite random and the time lords have control if regeneration wasn't natural
My belief is that it is supposed to refer to other possibilities in the stream of time, your other brothers and sisters, maybe even if you had a different father and so on. So it is not exactly random, it is other possible selves.
I'm not too worried about these colorizations replacing the originals. It would be one thing if the original episodes weren't made available to the public anymore, but that isn't the case here. This is just an alternative edit to ease modern fans into classic who and maybe inspire them to start watching the original series. I'm not sure how to feel about the implication that the war chief is the master though.
Likewise, I want originals preserved as the definitive versions. I know they have said the colourisations are an alternative for newer viewers to get into classic who, but on the same hand Phil Collinson has said he wants the new cgi regeneration in war games to be the 'proper' one. Would much rather just animations of missing stories ( I know they're a separate entity but still )
@@Devlinator61116 Though not a colorization, the updates to Day of the Daleks were subtle and cool, especially the addition of the modern Dalek voice over the original non-ring modulated ones.
The War chief is not the master and never was meant to be. Terrence Dicks stated a number of times, that The War Chief and The Master are not the same Time Lord and were never meant to be one and the same. He created both so I think he'd know if they were meant to be. I take my hat of the colorization team, they have done a epic job. It looks amazing and the regeneration is brilliant. I have issues though, like the Daleks the 2nd half the editing is not that great. I know this story like the back of my hand and this confused me in many places. Murray's score was to loud and overbearing. I had to turn the subtitles on. The inclusion of the new who doctors looked cheap and tacky. It was a cheap shot. I also don't agree that people would struggle with 6 to 10 parts. People binge boxsets on streaming, with episodes being an hour long. heck the final 2 episodes of Stranger things series 4 have roughly the same runtime as the og wargames. The Stranger things 4 finale is the same length as many classic who episodes. Watch the original War games and you will find, no padding it keeps the pace and it doesn't feel like 4 hours long, it feels like its over quickly. Also i don't agree that most companions in classic who where screamers and need to be rescued all the time. Yes some screamed, so do new who companions. But the majority of the classic who companions had a lot of saving the doctor, taking charge. Even Victoria, who was considered the main Screamer actually had a lot of moments when you go back and watch. The problem with the regeneration is that now brings up when did the 2 doctors take place, as it was always hinted and sort of agreed by Terrance dicks that it took part in never made season 6B, which was after the wargames and before doctors exile, that he did work for the time lords, As he does mention them to Jamie in the 2 doctors and jamie doesn't react as if he knows who they are. Matt Smith said pat was his favourite and Tomb of the Cybermen was his favourite story. He also said he based his doctor on pat, which i always loved.
In fairness, the faces on the screen in The Brain of Morbius were supposed to be pre-Hartnell Doctors. Then Terrance changed that in the novelisation. So I would say, if Dicks doesn't think authorial intent is worth something, the general audience can do the same thing, and ignore what Dicks intended for the War Chief and the Master.
Canon can be changed though. Obviously original creator’s intention should be taken into account but that shouldn’t stop modern creators from telling a different story if they want to. They did in the most respectful way possible too. Not outright stating it but teasing it with the score.
@@blurbledurblechurble "Canon can be changed..." Nobody wants the canon to be updated. "Updating" as you call it, or "pissing on the fans" as I call it, is why the viewing numbers are a dumpster fire.
@@tim2024-df5futhe viewing numbers are just fine. I think it's likely you've made the textbook mistake of confusing overnights now and overnights 40 years ago (or even just 20 years ago) as being the same thing. People binge shows now. They stream whole seasons. They buy box sets. They stream through external portals. if you think viewer numbers are down, you're just looking in the wrong places.
It could have also been explained with the end of Matt's Doctor. Time Lord regenerations get more and more explosive as they progress through their regeneration cycle, which was why Tennant's regeneration into Smith did so much damage to the TARDIS compared to those before. However, the Time Lord's unorthodox granting of a new regeneration cycle caused a unique situation in which Smith's was so explosive that it took out so many Dalek ships signaling the end of the cycle. Yet, once the new cycle finally kicked in bringing out Capaldi, it was extremely minimal signaling the beginning of the new cycle. Granted, that was before Chibnall decided to toss out all that established canon.
As a "younger viewer" (age 15), I felt that the warm games in colour removed way to much. It didn't a lot better job of carrying on the story than daleks did but removed all of the character development and small unique scenes. Carstairs and lady Jennifer get about 5 minutes worth and so when at the end Carstairs says he has a crush on her we don't ever see that (like Leela in Invasion of Time). Also the removal of the German leader (Von Wiech) who I didn't notice was missing for ages just made it jarring and weird when he just popped up for one scene with no explanation. Personally, the original is much better. I don't understand people who say they don't have the ability to watch a 10 parter. You aren't supposed to watch it all in one sitting. I think I watched it over the course of 2-3 weeks. These colourisations are still great to have and as a new viewer you don't know what your missing but as a classic viewer (which most of the people watching these things are) it's just jarring.
A fifeteen year old able to watch something in black and white for more than ninety minutes?!? Surely you're some sort of freak and must be rushed to a laboratory for immediate study! 😅 How is this possible? Fox Mulder must have a file on you!
Nicely said. Ellie, as a 'younger viewer' forgets that in these modern times of streaming, people will binge watch entire series on one or 2 sittings but Ellie cannot do this with Doctor Who, whom she purports to be a big fan of.
When I did my first watch through of Classic Who I was 23, working two jobs, and quite active socially. I was time poor. I watched one or two episodes at a time, in and around everything else, and enjoyed it just fine.
One thing that always made the Eleventh Doctor very "Troughtonesque" was the way his hands moved when he was talking, and personality wise, 11 was a mixture of 2 and 7 (Eccleston was more 4s smile and 6s temper, Tennant was 5 and 8, and Capaldi more influenced by 3).
The only version of The War Games I've ever seen was the 10 episode version. That being said, I like what I've seen of the colorized version; that's mostly because it doesn't look like it was colorized, if that makes any sense. It looks like it was filmed in a color format. I also thought that the regeneration scene that was added specifically to the colorized version was beautifully done - it was elegantly simple and carried the tension and emotion that's part and parcel of the majority of regeneration scenes. I hope to see the colorized version myself someday. Now, about the War Chief: back in uni when I saw The War Games for the first time, I was one of the fans who thought he was an earlier incarnation of the Master. Some of my friends weren't convinced, so I just kept politely quiet from then on. Whatever the true identity of this character is, I've always found the War Chief a truly formattable adversary for the Doctor. (Maybe we could consider the Schrödinger effect where the War Chief is and isn't the Master at the same time a "gift from the Toymaker".)
Because I'm in the US, I haven't seen this. As an old school Whovian, I don't care for him seeing his future incarnations in that scene. While I can see how it works, it reminds me a bit too much of adding Hayden Christiensen at the end of Return of the Jedi. It feels shoehorned in, and I don't know what to think about it. Also, considering the Wargames regeneration was one of the first Doctor Who things I ever saw, it hits a bit differently for me to see it changed. 3 year old me isn't happy.
Honestly, the use of the Saxon Master theme works for the War Chief even if he wasn't the Master: Remember that the Master was revealed during 10's time to had been manipulated and programmed by Gallifrey's War Council (Which is where that four beat rhythm comes from), which by connection and implication would be connected to The War Chief. Who's to say the War Chief wasn't involved in the Master's Programming? Just to spit ball a thought.
Rassilon aside, more broadly, the four beats represent the rhythm of the dual heartbeat of a Time Lord, so taken from this perspective, that musical motif could well be thought of as something that might characterise many insane Gallifreyans. I like the subtlety of this cue; it insinuates, but leaves room for both possibilities to co-exist, whether one would like to think of War Dude as the Master, or not. :)
It should be noted that Regeneration was a solution to the ill health of William Hartnell and they did not really think about it being an ongoing thing for several years so the idea that all the time lords regenerate; good, bad and mostly useless, was not fully worked out. We see it explored more in the comics and novels before being fully canonized on TV in the 1980's. So the idea of the War Chief being the master was only a fan theory though its was around almost as soon as the master made his first appearance. I'm old enough to have seen the original War games back when in first screened in the 1960's. When your 9 its very scary.
There is another thing to keep in mind with the classic who, back in the day we also had the Target books that came out around the same time as the series as they were written by the same writers of the show but the books fleshed out the stories more and there were differences. The way I see it it’s all valid and gives us more of an enjoyable story, they cold portray in writing better than what the budget would allow them in the TV series.
Dear young people. Really, research old movies, tv, music etc. To understand modern sensibility you need to understand where it came from. Otherwise we get what we are getting, constant repeats, remixes and regurgitation of recent media. Classic literature is venerated for a reason
Bro almost all media has been done before. Art is theft, and great art is theft passed off as new production. Doctor who isn't original. Star wars isn't original. Pocahontas isn't original. The fucking Bible isn't even original. All art takes cues and inspiration from other works. The best of it simply makes it FEEL new. We shouldn't cling to the past.
The reason for the previous Doctors looking older was explained by 10 in "Time Crash: Children in need" special. Something about shorting out the time differential.
So.... they've changed the entirety of Dr Who cannon by playing a few notes over a scene of the War Chief, which 99.9% of viewers didn't even notice let alone remember having been previously played in an episode from 15 years ago? Reminds me of my English Literature O-level lessons when we would spend an hour analysing 2 sentences of Lord of the Flies with the teacher pontificating that the word choice allowed us to conclude what William Golding had had for supper the night before he wrote it.
I love how 2 and Jamie have a great Jeff Lebowski/Walter dymaic they have (with 2/Jeff being a bohemian hippie who stumbles into adventure & Jamie/Walter being the wild warrior type who finds it.
@@Mark-nh2hsyea, 50+ years old episodes have less staying power in modern times.. naturally. Are you... Dense? They can subtly add stuff to the lore all they want. They are the current creators and have the authority to do so. What authority do you have?
Trivia time: Matt Smith's performance as the 11th Doctor was inspired by Patrick Troughton's 2nd as he watched all of Doctor Who as preparation for the role as at the time he'd never watched a single episode of the show.
@@charg1nmalaz0r51 He likely watched a specific section before he started, and continued to watch as he stayed in the role. I'm certain that within a couple of years he'd seen the majority of the show.
As a time traveller, all future and past incarnations of the Doctor exist at the same time within the universe. Even if they don't meet up, they cross their own time streams multiple times.
When it comes to Season 6B, it doesn't necessarily change the concept. In my head at least, the Second Doctor was lifted in the split second between disappearing into the void, and reappearing in the TARDIS. The Doctor would then on undercover assignments for the Celestial Intervention Agency, before being temporarily regenerated into the Fugitive Doctor to work for the dark corner of the C.I.A. known as Division. Once the Fugitive Doctor's served her purpose, Division return the Doctor to his second incarnation - reset to the point of sentencing - where he is returned to the TARDIS, mind wiped of all trace of his recent past, and then regenerates into his third incarnation. It certainly doesn't close the door on the concept, in any case.
That's a good explanation for the fugitive Doctor. Is she ever explicitly stated to be from a time before the 1st Doctor, because if so, why does she still have a Police Box TARIDS?
6B is still fine, Big Finish take 2 out of time as you describe, with him seeing 3 starting off briefly as he is convinced to do some work before he is returned to regenerate, similar to how Clara is running around the universe with Me in the moment before her death. As others have said though, Fugitive does not fit in here at all, she is pre-1 somehow
Flat out wrong. The “for the sake of the art” thing to do would be to change the story in order to tell a different, more compelling story. The anti-art approach is the one you’re taking. Nothing should ever be changed or iterated upon out of a false sense of respect. You’re also forgetting that they DIDN’T say he was the Master.
@@blurbledurblechurble They heavily implied it though didnt they. You know what they were doing as does everyone who watched it. They added it because it was a running theory back in the day that quite rightly got squashed by one of the creators. I have no idea how shrinking the lore of the franchise for some fan based need to alter the character enhances anything. If anything it shrinks the universe by taking away a unique character for no reason. Not every time lord that is bad is the master. The time meddler, the rani and the war chief were other characters abusing their power. Why one of them had to be retroactively changed to be the master is just weird
The fact of the matter is that when "The War Games" was first shown, the character of The Master hadn't even been thought of yet, since he wasn't introduced until the 3rd Doctor's 2nd series. So obviously he was never intended to be the Master initially, but there's no denying the characters of Roger Delgado's Master and the War Chief are quite similar. To my mind, whether you think the War Chief is an incarnation of the Master or not, is one of those cases that should be left up to the head canon of the individual viewer.
@@DrWhoFanJ - Pertwee's 2nd series (series 8 overall) comprised the stories - "Terror of the Autons", "The Mind of Evil", "The Claws of Axos", "Colony in Space" and "The Daemons". The Master was in all of them.
@ No, Jon Pertwee's second series was _Doctor Who and the Silurians._ What you’re describing there is *Season* 8, his second *season.* (Series 8 had Peter Capaldi and Jenna Coleman; the Master was in most of the episodes in their Missy incarnation, though.)
@@DrWhoFanJ I think your confusing the words "series and "serial". "The Silurians" was a serial. The overarching sequence of stories in a specific run is a series. I know it's known as a "season" in the US, but since I'm British and Doctor Who is British my original post is factually correct.
@ I’m British as well. "serial" and "series" were synonyms during the 20th century. It’s only this millennium that the two have diverged. (That’s why all the 1963-1989 Collection box sets say Season on them rather than Series as is on the 2005-2021 boxsets.)
I hate that there setting up the idea that the War Chief is the Master it's fanwank rubbish Terence Dicks has said he's not the Master RTD and his mate Collinson are just pissing all over his work. So disrespectful.
But does the show ever say he's not the master? Who cares what the Creator personally thought, if it wasn't officially in the story, then he still could have been the master. Y'all are fucking stupid edgelords that gate keep a fucking 50+ year old story. Grow up.
Sure, Terrence Dicks did say that. He also said the War Chief was the Master. His co-author also said the War Chief was the Master. Making the War Chief the Master also tidies up the script in a narrative sense...why have two similar characters, each doing the same job, playing the same role in the same way? And it does make this introduction to Gallifrey and the Time Lords a bit of extra punch. I'm not sure why people hate this
@joshuajoshua2732 You are right Joshua. Terrance Dicks was Dr Who's script editor from 1968 thru 1974. This period includes The War Games (1969) and Terror of the Autons (1971), which was the first episode to feature The Master. In fact, there were a lot of stories that featured The Master from Terror of the Autons thru Delgado's death in 1973 that were supervised by Script Editor Dicks. It is the script editor who is responsible for determining continuity between the various series/episodes as well as continuity within the characters. Thus, Dicks had the final and definite word on whether The War Chief was The Master and he made it clear that they were not the same person. This is just another example of how the BBC used colorization to stir up controversy and division amongst the fans. It is just another example pf how the BBC continues to corrupt this show's history and legacy, by dividing the fan base (revising & rewriting this story's original plot). Unfortunately, this hoopla is deliberate .... one of the BBC's favorite, conniving tactics that is used to generate publicity and ultimately sell more DVDs and BR's.
I don't like the idea of the Doctor's regenerations being predetermined. I prefer to think they come about on a subconscious level. Like the Doctor taking on younger forms was a reaction to the Time War or that 12th was a reminder to himself to save others.
They are not predetermined. The Time Lords are trolling the Doctor. They looked into the future and saw what he would look like. They already know they are going to change him and what he will look like because they saw that too as well as the time war, thus why they get the Doctor to try to change the Daleks to be less aggressive or eliminated. Most of this is down to Goth from The Deadly Assassin. That’s him standing and passing judgment on the Doctor with a cheeky smirk. Note the looks back and forth between the Time Lords. They know about the Division, or at least Goth does. Probably thought this might help him become Lord President but the Crispy Master put an end to that.
Thats not how canon works. Once it is placed for consumption of the public all that information is now part of the storys canon. Sure you could ignore it but that doesnt change the fact that that thing is out there now as part of the lore
Honestly I know I'm in the minority but I don't like the idea of the War Chief being the Master. It just never sat right with me. I feel like it cheapens Delgado's run and makes it less special.
As someone who grew up with Classic Who (from the War Games onwards, oddly enough) I really don't like this. I can well imagine that most Classic Who devotees won't care for it either. TBH, I didn't particularly mind the controversial Timeless Child and its pre-Hartnell Doctors, not least because the precedent had been set in Brain of Morbius, but a pre-Delgado Master seems more "heretical" somehow :)
@@ftumschk agreed. Retconning the War Chief as the Master is much more sacrilegious and disrespectful to Who lore than the timeless child. However, something way too many people dont seem to understand is: adding the master's music doesnt change the war chief into the master. Adding a modern regeneration sound effect after the war chief dies also doesnt change him into the master, it just means he's a time lord - which he already was.
I heard this theory way back in the late 80s/90s at first I liked the idea, as at that point I had not seen the War Games - I came into Doctor Who at 6 during 5th Doctor final season - plus watch old stories was very limited 😂. When I finally watched it on VHS I thought nah this is not the Master. I think the War Chief would be a good villain to bring back - where there is wars and blood shed - is the War Chief lurking in the background.
I'm glad it's in coloured too. I'll probably always prefer the originals in black and white with 1 and 2 but if it brings in new fans to classic who too I'm all for it
Really cool video! I totally agree with a lot of your assessments. However, I don’t think that 'War Games in Colour' rules out Season 6b. In The Two Doctors, the Second Doctor explicitly states the circumstances of his appearance. It’s made clear that the Time Lords granted him his freedom in exchange for carrying out missions for them. Since the Time Lords are introduced for the first time in The War Games and The Two Doctors must therefore take place chronologically after it, The Two Doctors essentially cements Season 6b as part of the canon. Interestingly, it’s not just a theory-it was even explained on the official BBC Doctor Who website up until 2014 with a dedicated info page about the details of Season 6b.
15:54 maybe it's pretetermined but it could also be either them just showing the doctor his future incarnations (since they are time travelers they could check that out and have that knowledge) or they could be just showing a bunch of random people (humans or human looking aliens) that he subconsciously remembered whenever he regenerated and decided to take on the looks of each of them.
Dont apologise for being a younger viewer, I am 56 and still find some of the classic shows hard to watch (not many, but a few), it is what it is. I did know the story and I found some of cuts a little jarring, but still enjoyed the colourisation of the story.
10:07 As someone for whom lore matters, and who has seen and owns The War Games in its original form, I actually think they did a really good job of adding things without significantly changing anything, so there is room for both versions to be canon. While the ways in which they did it were sometimes a bit jarring and disjointed, it was clearly done with love, and, for me, enhanced the story. It was a little bit George Lucas Special Edition at times, but nothing that was done felt gratuitous or excessive to me. I was impressed.
They've released "The Daleks - In Colour" as a DVD in the UK, so there's a good chance it'll get to the US/elsewhere eventually. I suspect the restriction to the UK is a funding and/or licensing issue that'll get fixed if there's seen to be enough demand.
I have two issues. So many say it doesn't erase the original as it still exists but also say look it changes canon. You can't have it both ways. Also I don't like the argument that modern fans can't get into classic who. Just because it is difficult doesn't mean you shouldn't try. If you can binge a tv season in a day you can deal with classic who. Also, you don't have to watch it all at once. It isn't intended to be watched that way.
I feel like it's the general concensus that Canon and history doesn't matter in Doctor Who. Which I disagree with but that's what the majority of the Fandom believes
@@stanleydude3340 Clearly "canon" matters more in Doctor Who than it does in say Batman. Martha and Thomas Wayne can die over and over and over again with no expectation for one of their deaths to painstakingly recreate previous versions; it can happen when Bruce is five or when he's twelve and the identity of the assassin can vary wildly, but Ian and Barbara follow Susan back to a scrapyard just once and any reference to that event has to be true to the facts as originally laid. Maybe that needs to change because the weight of over-complexity built up over time is causing it to lose all cohesion, but up until now there has been a canon that relatively rarely contradicts itself compared to what might be expected given its size, aside from notorious cock ups like Mawdryn Undead's UNIT dating or Paul McGann's half human debacle or the Eye of Harmony weirdly relocating to the TARDIS, the cybermen in Earthshock having footage from Revenge of the Cybermen even though that hadn't happened yet and so on... but the reason these errors are remarkable is because of how rare they are, not how common they are, and the fandom has been very creative in explaining many of them away by simple ret-cons. Why do the Thals the first Doctor meets think the Kaleds were called Dals? It's not beyond the wit of any fan to come up with a pithy explanation for that; it could be a mistake in their oral tradition or maybe "Dal" is the Thal word for Kaled, or Kaleds are a nation within the Dal race. It was cohesive enough for an effort to be made to smooth over the errors rather than just shrug them off or invoke "multiverse theory" which is the lasy resort of the desperate canon-keeper. But eventually it just gets too complicated, and I think that's where we are now; too many layers of complexity for any notion of canon to be clung to.
i mean i was a modern who fan and watched the originals just fine. The first couple of seasons were a little slow and dated but it wasnt really that much of an issue lol
14 днів тому+9
How can you comment on the merits of the new version if you haven’t seen the old one? It literally makes no sense at all.
Because some people always side with the new junk. I much prefer the old. I'm waiting on the BBC to sell us another version in a couple of years that claims The War Chief was the same character as the time meddling monk!!!
Yeah that stopped me around the 4 min mark. Usually I don't like being the if you haven't seen it you can't comment on it kinda guy. But this time it's a necessity to have some basis for the judgement about how much better it is to abridge a work and change it to meet the standards of the short attention spanned, updates effects if there is exactly ZERO experience with the original.
As for Season 6B - there's nothing that was seen here that would render it moot. There's nothing that says this regeneration took place immediately after the last scene. It could have taken place years later, after all the unseen 6B adventures (and one that we HAVE - The Two Doctors), or even an implanted memory to cover up the fact that he (could have) regenerated into Jo martin in between.
Joe Martin's Doctor Who comes before William Hartnell 1st Doctor. This was shown to us in Jodie Whittaker's era. Joe Martin's Doctor left the planet became The Fugitive was captured memory removed. Was regenerated into a child who grew up to be William hartnell's first doctor and he left the planet.
There's plenty of things we've seen on Doctor Who that were forgotten, clarified, re-explained, or just plain changed in the past. Daleks used to run by static electricity, then by beamed power, and then just never mind, they just run on their own. And don't get me started on how gold affects Cybermen... Everything we've been told about Doctor Ruth comes from third parties whose trustworthiness is in serious question. There's no reason they couldn't choose to reverse some or all of it later. A great many of the details of Doctor Ruth's life make more sense if they're placed between Troughton and Pertwee - the look (inside and out) of the TARDIS being an obvious example.
@@DanBen07 The big spanner in Fugitive Doctor being pre-Hartnell is that her TARDIS was a police box. Unless, of course, we have to accept a massive coincidence.
It was interesting to hear the perspective of someone who'd never seen the original. I couldn't help but "fill in" all the blanks after being familiar with the original. 10 episodes was extremely unusual even for the time, though. And I don't find the fast pace of New Who gives "tension" because it's all so fast. It does very much speak of the fan need to "join the dots" with everything though. As for Season 6b, it started mainly because there were two (probably accidental) post-War Games references in The Five and Two Doctors.
Aww man, too many spoilers, I’ll have to come back and watch later. I’m watching my way through Classic Who, and have only just finished Abominable Snowman. When I get to it, I plan to watch all 10 episodes of War Games and THEN the colourized cutdown. And of course, then I’ll come back to get your take on it all. Tata, till then.
6b wasn't between Troughton leaving and Pertwee arriving. It was between Troughton being sentenced and the regeneration. In fact 'World game' by Terrance Dicks put it more directly. After the tribunal, he's not sentenced to exile. He's sentenced to death...
I'm an older fan. Been one since 1973. But I totally understand your point about sitting through 10 episodes in b&w. However, have you considered watching any of season 22? Then, it was transmitted like it is today in 45-minute episodes. I myself enjoyed the colourisation of the War Games. Just some of the music was out of place.
I loved the colourisation, apart from using the modern doctors as options. I don’t think they altered it too much and the pacing was fabulous. As for 6B, unless we’d seen 2 going directly from the trial to the Tardis, then there is always space for the Time Lords using 2 for some time, prior to forcing a regeneration. It’s murky and will always be so, unless it is stated otherwise in a televised episode. I would also add that in the 2 Doctors, not only is the Doctor decidedly older, but so is Jamie. Which can’t be explained in any sensible way, other than 2 meeting up with him after the trial. The War Chief is intriguing, when I watched the original in the 90’s on video, I thought he was remarkably similar to the Master, in appearance, dress and attitude. To more heavily hint at this in this is fine with me. It doesn’t change anything really. With so little known of the Master’s prior incarnations to Delgado, it is stated that he is on his final regeneration in the Deadly Assassin. At most then we have seen 2 of the Master’s incarnations from his 1st regeneration cycle, or possibly 1. It is unclear if the Master in the Deadly Assassin is Delgado’s version or a later one. This leave at least 11 or 12 incarnations we have not seen on TV. If the War Chief was one of those I don’t think I’d be disappointed if he was.
The Doctor was better and more relatable as someone with humble beginnings rising above them than as an immortal god who is the cause and solution to everything, and in that same way the Master and the War Chief never needed to be the same person. It's entirely possible that two separate Time Lords could be evil on their own, and it works better that way for their stories. Are they going to retcon "Terror of the Autons" to suggest the Master and Doctor remember each other from "The War Games"? It's lazy writing and only serves the egos of Chris Chibnall and Phil Collinson while taking a dump on the work of Terrence Dicks and everyone else working on the show in the late 60s and early 70s. What a shame.
Except, as she herself pointed out, the shorter, colorized version is an official Doctor Who release, meaning those who have not yet watched the longer, B&W version likely won't. She hasn't, except to watch the different ending. So, yes, Collinson has taken a big dump on the writing of Terrence Dicks and Malcolm Hulke, and he has effectively changed the history of the Master which will make watching the rest of the Master's stories confusing for those new viewers, especially the early episodes. My advice to you is, instead of looking for an opportunity to be dismissive and condescending to make yourself feel better about yourself, maybe watch and listen to the video you're commenting on. Context is important, which was actually my point in the first place.
I like the changes made, makes the series as a whole a little more cohesive and consistent, the energy regenerations/ future incarnation previews etc. There’s a lot of Classic Who in New Who so why not the other way around where possible? Plus, if fans truly do not like them, at least the original version is available for us to watch
The Master The war chief Missy The Doctor The war doctor The valeyard Why can't they change their name? It's been shown before that when their personality greatly changes, they change their names.
Time could always be rewritten. That line of dialogue was a warning to Barbara not to change history because there could be consequences, not that she couldn't.
People actually calling younger fans "fake fans" or being upset at them not wanting to delve deep into classic who are the worst kind of fans. I haven't seen much classic Star Trek (pre TNG), am I not a real fan? Ugh get a grip.
Why do an edited version? Why don't they just watch the original - same with all the classic stories. I had no issue doing that as a youngster. Also as a youngster I dislike B&W anything but for some reason the B&W Doctor Who stories sucked me in and was never an issue.
Uh, no. You’re absolutely a fake fan. If you haven’t watched - or at least are ENDEAVOURING to watch - every episode of the show, you are not a fan. Really?? You call yourself a Star Trek fan and you haven’t fucking seen the Original Series??? I’ve seen every episode of every Star Trek show (except Discovery - not going there) and I don’t even consider myself a Star Trek fan! I’m more of a “casual viewer”. “Fan” originally came from the word “fanatic”. And if you can’t even bother to watch the episodes that made the show what it is, you’re not even close.
@@Mark-nh2hs You should also make an exception for The Twilight Zone, some of them are brilliant, and classic episodes of The Avengers are worth a look too. There is a lot of good telefantasy in black and white.
Its a very tricky thing when the new guard make changes because there is about a 70 year history of people watching and enjoying this show before a lot of the newer fans were even born. I like colourization but I don't like changes in cannon or erasure. The flaws of this show are ingrained in its beginnings
To your observation, yes, Patrick Troughton was one of Matt Smith's inspirations. Matt absolutely loved Patrick's Tomb of the Cybermen story. And Capaldi grew up with the first three Doctors, so those traits play through his run as well.
Im with you Ellie! I find it really hard to get into the classic who no matter how many times I try, they are too long to get into and the effects aren't like they are now. I want to get into it though. Not sure if there is any recommendations on classic who I should watch from you guys?
I think the problem is you guys binge it if you take the time to watch maybe one or two episodes at a time you might enjoy them better these things were made to be shown week to week.
I watched a lot of the classics as a teenage with no issue - the effects and length never put me off as I was absorbed into the story. I roll my eyes when people say they cannot get into Classic Who due to story length - but then can binge watch other TV shows is so hypocritical. If you cannot cope with watching long Dr Who stories watch an episode a day or a week like it used to be aired. Other than that unless you change your entire mindset and fous on the story and turn your mobile phone off. 😂 but I think splitting episodes could work.
If you’re wanting to sample classic Who I’d recommend Spearhead From Space (3rd Doctor), Genesis of the Daleks (4th Doctor) and The Caves of Androzani (5th Doctor). All are strong stories and don’t contain many shonky special effects.
@@BungleBare Genesis is a 6 episodes that could be too long, and Davros is now problematic don't forget lol. Caves may bore them as its a slow burner. All you recommended are excellent choices but some New NuWho fans could still struggle at these stories. 🤣 Im not being serious of course, Spearheads is a good choice, Earthshock is another. Some of the 6th Doctor stories as his season are roughly the same equivalent as a two part NuWho story.
I think the collection of potential regenerations should have included not only images of most of the Doctors, also have the Fugitive Doctor, perhaps some of the timeless children digitally aged, the Doctors in "The Curse of Fatal Death", and possibly even some of the companions.
6:02 They also used the original Master's musical theme later when The War Chief was explaining his plan to The Doctor, and the modern era regeneration ringing-hum sound was low in the mix while The War Chief's body was being dragged off after he was shot.
The one thing I always think is skipped over, is that one of the original faces, is effectively a caricature of the fifth Doctor, it would have been nice to have included him especially as he's been seen in Time Crash & The Power of the Doctor (Not withstanding he's the father in law of David Tennant), if any classic Doctor should have been included it should have been him.
I never got to see the original story. Sometimes, the pacing did feel rushed, but I loved the re colour, the Master hints. When the Doctor first sees the war chief, Patrick Troughton conveyed so much with his reaction. You instantly believed there was a history between them.
in the new adventures they were written as having been at the academy together together with the master, the rani, the warchief, the monk and drax... together with a few others they formed a club called the decca... i think it was a peter davison missing adventure about his first encounter with the celestial toymaker... i dont remember the name of the book, but i do remember it explaining why the doctor was soooo scared of him!
I did start chuckling when that cartwheeling 'Saxon' theme started playing. It sounds patronizing but you know that's for the benefit of the young folk who can then join the dots. I don't have the same level of objection to the War Chief/Master thing that other people might. It's pretty clear that they know each other fairly well, although perhaps the chummy nature of the relationship in the Pertwee era is simply down to how those two incarnations interact.
It is interesting to hear younger views of the show. I grew up with Peter Davidson being the first time I really took notice of Doctor Who, although my favourite is John Pertwee. I do disagree with the view that multi-episode stories was hard. You have to think back when there was only three channels - yes I know you will never get that but try, having this to look forward to was a highlight for the week. The main thing that I think most classic fans have issue with is the rewriting history. The Timeless Child was the first real example of this but as an older viewer I have no problem with the regnerations being made more consistent with the modern era. It has all to do with respecting the lore while developing something new. The showing future regenertations was somewhat stupid though, but it was better than the drawings that the timelords had shown the Doctor in the original version.
I'd have been happy to see the original drawings turned into more photo-realistic renderings of the same faces. Using stills of Nu Who Doctors struck me as a joke
I think they should have kept the original faces. The regeneration was fun, though I didn't like the war chief being the master they should have let it be it's own character
Season 6B is definitely still canon for me, since otherwise, it makes no sense that The Second Doctor knows what Jamie and Zoe had their memories wiped when he meets the fake versions of them in The 5 Doctors, or that Jamie knows who The Time Lords are in The 2 Doctors. The fact that The Second Doctor looks younger when he regenerates than he does in his later appearances can be explained away with The Tenth Doctor's line from Time Crash that The Fifth Doctor being near him "shorts out the time differential between the two of them" and makes him look older (which still doesn't explain why the past versions of The Doctor already look older before they meet their future selves in episodes like The 5 Doctors or The Day Of The Doctor, why The War Doctor and The Fugitive Doctor don't age at all when they meet their future selves, or why both versions of The Doctor look the same age in episodes like The Impossible Astronaut or Joy To The World when 2 versions of the same incarnation are in close proximity to each other, but never mind.)
The Sixth Doctor’s regeneration in Seven is pretty awful. Colin Baker was angry about getting fired (understandably) and refused to shoot the scene. He has since gone on to say that he wish that he had done it for the fans. Colin is an amazing actor and he has really gotten to shine in Big Finish where he always does an amazing job. He is also a lifetime fan of the show. I feel like if anyone deserves to come back for a special as a returning Doctor, it should be him or Paul McGann (who had one movie and a phenomenal short).
As for Season 6B, I have assumed since The Giggle that the new idea is that it's a bi-generated of the Troughton Doctor who was on those other adventures including 3, 5 and 2 Doctors.
I'm writing this comment with the video paused at 02:45 so haven't seen the full video yet. But... Even as someone who grew up at the tail end of the classic era and watched many of these old stories as omnibus editions on UK Gold in the early to mid 90s I have to say that some of them do honestly go on quite a bit. An example: Inferno, great story, great acting, great locations. But my god, at 7 parts it really drags on in places usually repeating the same few plot points to progress the story - Doctor captured > Doctor escapes, companion captured > Doctor and companion captured > go to step 1 and repeat until the final episode.
How dare you criticise inferno? It is one of the best stories ever. Plus the captured/escaped scenes do not repeat. There’s only one time the doctor is in a cell and it’s only for like two scenes.
One of my main faults with the episode is the amount of times we saw the galifrey intro shots and the base. They were over used in my opinion. I also loved the Easter egg of the year on the tardis console switching between 1970 and 1980 as it’s debated when unit stories actually take place. I do think adding regenerations is fine, like troughton to pertwee and Hurt to ecclestone. They shouldn’t be re-written. Finally I only recognised the war chief as being an important character because of the Saxon master theme. Straightaway I knew what it was hinting at
Great to hear a “new” viewers opinion from an older fan. Every few years I do “the Journey” - watching every episode I can from An Unearthly Child thru to the latest episode. Just before Christmas I finished the War Games before going into the Pertwee era. I have no issue with these cut down versions and hearing this experience from younger eyes I’m happy if new viewers watch the classics this way. If it helps them appreciate older Doctors then that’s great.
I don't think it completes Series 6B to bed. Not quite. Because we don't know if there was anytime between the trial and his regeneration. The one thing that this confirms is that the Ruth Doctor is pre-hartnel.
Personally, I prefer the idea of different regenerations. The orange glow should only have happened between Eccleston and Tennant, as it was the remaining energy from the heart of the TARDIS that the Doctor absorbed from Rose, so when Tenant did the same thing, it just felt wrong, and it hasn't felt right since using it as there shouldn't be any left to come out!
I liked that each Doctor had their own unique regeneration, just like they are unique versions of The Doctor. I hope they don't go back and "fix" those regenerations to make them uniform like the NuWho ones.
@@mdewsall17 I agree I was expecting different regenerations but nope the tired old NuWho step back turn, strike the pose and lift head up and gold magical fire explodes - yawn. Plus is it me but all NuWho doctors regenerations are predominantly triggered by absorbing to much energy/world destroying energy or zapped by an energy ray gun of some description. So predictable, its like when The Toymaker had that big lazer gun in the Giggle I knew as soon as in saw it "yep the Doctor will get zapped with it and he will regenerate". Low and behold predictable NuWho - I was laughing when many NuWho fans where shocked and not expecting it to happen?? Its was so obvious 🤣
@@Mark-nh2hs Exactly, and Eccleston even described his regeneration as him absorbing the energy from the heart of TARDIS which he clearly expelled from his body during the regeneration, so how can it be exactly the same the next time without the Doctor absorbing more of it first!
6B could still have happened because of the gap between Abyss and TARIDIS. I've always wondered why he was not shown an image of the Third Doctor as an image in the revamped version considering he was demonstrated other regenerations before the decision was taken out of his hands. Also, considering the bi-generation has gone back through all the Doctor's previous regenerations why didn't we get the bi-generated version on the revamp? That would have eliminated the 6B problem altogether. Wasn't the master music also used for the reveal of The Beast in the 2nd New Who series before it was used for the Master?
Yeah, I just thought it was Murray Gold's "tension-building" theme. If it's not the same music used in the build-up to the Sutekh reveal, it's very close!
Also the bi-generation going back along the Doctor's timeline, whatever that means, is probably best left as RTD's own personal head-canon. He's got some very odd ideas about this show, that man 😂😂
In the three Doctors Patrick Troughton appeared out of his own timestream inside the Tardis in the two Doctors he was with Jamie but not Zoe he also was in the five Doctors don't forget
Here's another theory Ellie. This 'The War Games' is just a fan fiction touch up of a classic and isn't anything to do with canon which leaves everything else still as it is and could be. Glad you liked it better than 'Joy to the World', JttW wasn't bad in my opinion but it's gotten a bit of backslash for being a story about isolation and absolute self determination during the silly season which I hadn't thought of during the show. But I also didn't think that Dot and Bubble was a story about racism and so fans are pushing back with their new programming. Keep up the good work and don't let you noticing things make you feel bad. Lots of people notice these things too and feel similar ;)
frankly, it doesn't look like a colorization, it looks like it was originally shot that way, and just ended up on the tapes in black and white. and someone agrees with me the only thing left is giving a proper 6/7 transition...which should just take some very minor stuff to do, really. we've even got a War to Nine that's good enough. I have a copy of the original 10 parter I got in, of all things, a yard sale box. it also came with the 3-4 regen ep planet of the spiders (which is pretty much where I started on Who), and even the entirety of "trial of a Time Lord!" my biggest coup out of that box, however, was managing to get hold of a FIRST doctor serial...back from before they started having to hunt for most of his eps or recreate them.
I've watched some of the original War Games and definitely thought the pacing was quite slow compared to what we're used to, lol. I'd love to see this colorized version sometime (I'm American, so who knows when that might be lol). The Master's music being added to certain scenes is so chilling and so cool!!!
Romana got to pick what her regenerated body looked like. But there isn't enough information to know if the "models" we saw were the only ones available to her.
That scene always made me think that the regeneration choice thing is circumstantial - the Doctor has always suffered some sort of immediate trauma prior to a regeneration whereas Romana just decides to. As such, it makes a kind of sense that she would have more control and experience less ill effects than the Doctor attempting emergency repair of near fatal damage.
It would be hard for anyone to really replace Nicholas Courtney, but I do love Matthew Rhys and would like to see him appear in Doctor Who, so I'll support this idea. I could also imagine Sean Pertwee in the role, which would be a nice nod to the relationship between his father's Doctor and the Brig.
I hate the orange glow being put into Classic Who & being replacing the original effects. I much prefer how Regeneration was handled in the Classic Series where each one was different. Variety is always better than conforming to 1 single way of doing something. With the exception of 3 into 4 (& maybe 6 into 7), all of the Classic Regeneration effects I think are great, and I honestly Modern Who should ditch the boring Orange Glow for something new. The 2nd Doctor’a regeneration is one of my favourites, seeing his own face around him, only to lose his own! Screaming in horror in a black void with no face, disappearing into it only to come out with a new one. I think it’s amazing, and I’m kinda miffed that they changed it & even more miffed that they’re saying they’re one should be THE Regeneration. I remember when the Doctor Who UA-cam Channel uploaded a Regeneration Compilation a couple years back & used the Twice Upon A Time 1st Doctor Regeneration instead of the Surviving Clip from The Tenth Planet & how that kicked up a fuss. I imagine if they did the same but with The 2nd Doctor with The War Games In Colour, there would be an equal amount of fuss.
To be fair, if you were going to talk about the War Games, why not take the time to do the research and actually watch the original and the modern version so you can have that perspective and do the comparison rather than just state that you never watched the classic? I get the number of episodes and the time thing as you mentioned. I come from Classic Who and have watched all 26 seasons. I know I could only get through 1 or 2 parts at a time. I generally had only an hour of television a day along side school and a full-time job, and it took several months to get through all the seasons and do Nu Who as well. I just think a little more effort would have been appropriate, in my opinion.
HELL NO!!!!!!!! a color crap-erized version with 80% of the story edited out, and its the best one to START WATCHING WITH!!!!! MY FOREHEAD NEEDS A BRICK WALL TO REMOVE THE STUPIDITY OF THAT OUT OF MY BRAIN.
Look , it's WhoCulture. What did did you expect from these clowns. I didn't expect anything less from these people who only know this show mostly from 2005 onwards. Most fans say the same thing, excellent colourization made it look amazing. Over all most criticized many things including the editing, pace of it with so much cut, suggesting War Chief being the Master and the faces suggested for his regeneration making it look like it was not random but making it look it was predetermined. Fans who loved it all are in the minority.
About Season 6b, We can assume that the events still occur, just in the gap between when the Doctor is sent hurdling away and when we see him sitting inside of the TARDIS. We saw Eleven age incredibly old, then he returned to a younger age, then regenerated into 12. Perhaps since this was a forced regeneration, the Time Lords forced him to his younger appearance than to regenerate in the TARDIS. I wish they had just used the scene from The Two Doctors to do the forced regeneration.
Here is my take on the Canon: the original will always be the definitive Canon, though the colorization condenses the story to the modern audience. The colorization is canon, with filler taken out and a proper regeneration shown (albeit with some CGI). It does not matter which of them is or is not because they both are. They both tell the same story, with the same meat in the middle, with the same ending.
You right in one aspect but one version clearly makes out the War Chief is the Master and you can see a bigger clash among Classic/NuWho fans and the New NuWho fans - who will argue the new War Games is the correct one and the original is now non canon etc etc.
I'm reminded of an old story about author James Cain when asked how he felt about the movie adaptation of THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE ruining his book. He casually pointed up to the novel on his shelf and (to paraphrase) said, "No, the book's not ruined. See, it's still there on the shelf." Same here with WAR GAMES. A revision of it was made, but the original is still there for us to watch in a variety of formats. It didn't go anywhere, so all this concern some fans have about a few changes being made for this condensed version is a tad moot in the end. Just to mention - Series 6B came not so much out of Troughton looking older, but that Doctor #2 said and did things in THE FIVE DOCTORS and THE TWO DOCTORS to suggest knowledge he could not have had until *after* THE WAR GAMES (knowledge about Jamie in TFD and actively working *for* the Time Lords in TTD, for a couple of examples). Series 6B remedied those concerns without affecting any of the canon, which is no doubt one of the reasons why Terrance Dick would even play with the idea in the novels that came later (of course, as mentioned by others here, he also was adamant that the War Chief and the Master were not the same and ... well, we can see how that turned out). Does this new ending eliminate the possibility of Series 6B? No, on the contrary, it makes clear that something must have happened between going into the vortex and him sitting comfortably in a chair in the TARDIS. It's not like every Doctor has suddenly jumped into a void and reappeared reclining in the TARDIS when regeneration has occurred. Doctor #2's change is special, and to disappear into ... whatever that's supposed to be there, easily sets up him being given a chance to do exactly as written about for Series 6B to work. Of course, this is just another fan stating their own beliefs here, so the creators on the show can do whatever they like, but I would definitely fall into the camp of saying this doesn't "close the book" on Series 6B. As to the Master and the War Chief being the same? Well, I fall into the *other* camp way over there that had watched THE WAR GAMES in the 1980s for the first time and said, "Hey, couldn't they be the same?" So, eh. Works for me. Some good questions you've raised in your video essay, so wanted to throw in my own thoughts in response. Shame seeing all ten episodes in their original form doesn't interest you in the way it does some of us fans, but maybe you'll come around to our way of thinking eventually. 🙂
It is bizarre to me that she says "ten episodes is daunting" because "TV is different now" when long serializations are more common now than they were then; most SF shows in the sixties were stand alone stories that could be shown in any order because of the American syndication model - compare the 1960s Lost in Space that can be viewed more or less in any order bar the initial establishing episode, because each one episode story winds up not changing the situation one jot with no cliffhangers compared to the 2020s Lost in Space reimagining which is a 28 episode serial in which every episode shifts the plot along and each ends with a cliffhanger. That is the direction of the trend; Doctor Who is an outlier by going in the opposite direction. Effectively it is more "Americanized" but towards a model of American TV that is thirty years out of date - that is it is trying to be, in terms of format, like 1990s American TV. When I put it like that it reminds me of the Russians in classic Spitting Image demonstrating their hippness to Western culture by digging The Monkees. The pros and cons of serialization stem from whether or not the serial has a predetermined arc and length or if it is to continue indefinitely until cancellation looms and then rapidly tied up in a messy knot of the numerous random plot strands, with the latter usually making for disappointing and messy last seasons (e.g. Lost or Game of Thrones) despite being pretty good up until that point, or worse having cancellation imposed between seasons meaning it winds up being an unfinished serial. The beauty of classic Who was it was a series of serials with each serial having a predetermined length, so effectively the programme had a reboot and jumping on point every four to six weeks. In fact classic Who had the perfect format for modern streaming with the advantages of both a serial and of a series.
it’s wild to me that the orange glow has become standard regeneration energy/look, when it clearly wasn’t intended for that when it was introduced with Christopher Eccleston. It was established as the visual symbol of the time vortex, leaving his body after he took it in to save Rose. I like it, and think it’s a neat shorthand that the show has done a lot of good with since then - but pretending that it should be made canon for every Doctor beforehand is ridiculous.
What I love about the War Chief is Master theory, is that the young boy Master from David Tennant’s episode showing the backstory - they look like the same person!
If I were to make a case against the revelation/change, I'd have to say it'd be the idea that you'd expect The Doctor to recognize The Master, no matter what he looked like. I think I could made an equally strong argument to claim that The War Chief was The Monk.
@@VinnieBartilucci Sometimes the Master doesn't even know the Master! The entire identification process can be a bit "hmmm" and "iffy" for a while sometimes
I think continuity-wise the ending arguably does more damage than anything the previous regime did. We already know the Doctor's ultimate origin is shrouded in mystery and the show has always left it up in the air as to who and what the character is. But now we're dealing with events on screen that might seem to actually contradict a whole number of stories. Fans were very set on the idea that 'The Two Doctors' was, at least in the Doctor's own timeline, a prelude to all that trouble-shooting that his third incarnation was sent on - rather unwillingly. So now we've got an entirely new mystery to sort out. Unless RTD is suggesting it was a bigenerated form of Two...?
Highly disrespectful to all those involved in the original production and to the late Roger Delgado who was the first Master to appear onscreen and made the character so popular. But of course, it would never dawn on the kids that it could be in bad taste. They were different characters, one devised by Dicks and Hulke, the other by Dicks and Letts.
One thing is - The Sound Of Drums. The Master’s tapping his fingers on the desk/table. The rhythm he uses is the baseline of all Dr.Who theme tunes. We later learn it’s the signal the Time Lords put in his head so they could track him down. But, it is always there is the theme, so does it suggest he’s always there?
What a lovely review! Thank you. ❤
Thanks for the great edit!
If you were responsible for the edit of this serial, my hat off to do you! I'm an old school Doctor Who (my earliest memories are of Tom Baker serials) and I thought it was excellent. Bravo and I look forward to more!
Matt smith personally said at a few points the 2nd doctor was one of his biggest influences when approaching the role of the doctor
well yea hes usually described as an old man in the body of a youngn (regardless of his lore i mean cause he already was xd)
Wendy Padbury said "Matt reminds me of Pat". And she should know better than anyone because not only did she play Zoe alongside Pat but she went on to become Matt's agent.
I didn't know that @@DEEJAYWAL
Troughton is to my mind the definative doctor. All the "Doctory" attributes - Catch Phrases, Costuming, Prop use, Running, it all started in his era. Every doctor after him has been pulling on threads Pat left. Hartnell might have been first, but Pat made the role what it is..
@ I can respect the sentiment, I feel he definitely laid out the ground work though every doctor has added many little quirks here or there, personally Pertwee and McCoy are my favorite classic doctors, I liked kinda bond-like nature of 3 and the Whimsicalness of 7 and I enjoy their stories. But I definitely appreciate most actors carrying over those doctor defining manners each built upon. I was happy when Capaldi brought back the musical nature of the doctor, but I just love Capaldi in general though he’s been my favorite doctor since series 8 aired, he literally embodies the doctor as a being so perfectly!
You nearly managed 7 minutes without mentioning River Song
Lasted longer than I could have
Ellie is slipping.
Don't worry, 50 years later they'll remaster this vid and edit it in.
Yh it's annoying how she keeps Fucking saying river is the best character or just mentioning her 😒
You didn't though...
The rationale for 6b is not that The Second Doctor has aged, it's that his appearance in later stories are only possible if the events of the War Games have already taken place. In The Five Doctors, confronted by illusions of Jamie and Zoe he remembers the Time Lords wiped their memories of him (not 100% correct, but how would he think that if he's from before it happened?), in the Two Doctors he's explicitly on a mission for the Time Lords, which of course would be impossible at any point prior to his revealing his location at the end of the War Games and in the Three Doctors he talks about how the Time lords have extracted him from his place in the timestream, again something that's only possible after they'd located him. The only consistent story is that his forced regeneration was interrupted by an unknown but obviously Time Lord agent who then delayed its completion while he operated on their behalf. Then, all three of those multi-Doctor stories make sense.
As a watcher of the classic series my only issue with the coloured version of "The War Games" was when they decided to use the actors and actress of modern who.
I feel like it would have been much better if they used random people to imply it's still quite random and the time lords have control if regeneration wasn't natural
colourised*; and actors is a gender-neutral term.
My belief is that it is supposed to refer to other possibilities in the stream of time, your other brothers and sisters, maybe even if you had a different father and so on. So it is not exactly random, it is other possible selves.
I'm not too worried about these colorizations replacing the originals. It would be one thing if the original episodes weren't made available to the public anymore, but that isn't the case here. This is just an alternative edit to ease modern fans into classic who and maybe inspire them to start watching the original series. I'm not sure how to feel about the implication that the war chief is the master though.
I feel exactly the same. Though I am of the firm belief that the War Chief is NOT the Master
Likewise, I want originals preserved as the definitive versions. I know they have said the colourisations are an alternative for newer viewers to get into classic who, but on the same hand Phil Collinson has said he wants the new cgi regeneration in war games to be the 'proper' one. Would much rather just animations of missing stories ( I know they're a separate entity but still )
If modern fans can't appreciate Classic Who for what it is then go watch NuWho.
A colorization should be just that. No re-edits to the story or sound.
@@Devlinator61116 Though not a colorization, the updates to Day of the Daleks were subtle and cool, especially the addition of the modern Dalek voice over the original non-ring modulated ones.
The War chief is not the master and never was meant to be. Terrence Dicks stated a number of times, that The War Chief and The Master are not the same Time Lord and were never meant to be one and the same. He created both so I think he'd know if they were meant to be.
I take my hat of the colorization team, they have done a epic job. It looks amazing and the regeneration is brilliant.
I have issues though, like the Daleks the 2nd half the editing is not that great. I know this story like the back of my hand and this confused me in many places. Murray's score was to loud and overbearing. I had to turn the subtitles on. The inclusion of the new who doctors looked cheap and tacky. It was a cheap shot.
I also don't agree that people would struggle with 6 to 10 parts. People binge boxsets on streaming, with episodes being an hour long. heck the final 2 episodes of Stranger things series 4 have roughly the same runtime as the og wargames. The Stranger things 4 finale is the same length as many classic who episodes. Watch the original War games and you will find, no padding it keeps the pace and it doesn't feel like 4 hours long, it feels like its over quickly.
Also i don't agree that most companions in classic who where screamers and need to be rescued all the time. Yes some screamed, so do new who companions. But the majority of the classic who companions had a lot of saving the doctor, taking charge. Even Victoria, who was considered the main Screamer actually had a lot of moments when you go back and watch.
The problem with the regeneration is that now brings up when did the 2 doctors take place, as it was always hinted and sort of agreed by Terrance dicks that it took part in never made season 6B, which was after the wargames and before doctors exile, that he did work for the time lords, As he does mention them to Jamie in the 2 doctors and jamie doesn't react as if he knows who they are.
Matt Smith said pat was his favourite and Tomb of the Cybermen was his favourite story. He also said he based his doctor on pat, which i always loved.
colourisation*
In fairness, the faces on the screen in The Brain of Morbius were supposed to be pre-Hartnell Doctors. Then Terrance changed that in the novelisation. So I would say, if Dicks doesn't think authorial intent is worth something, the general audience can do the same thing, and ignore what Dicks intended for the War Chief and the Master.
Canon can be changed though. Obviously original creator’s intention should be taken into account but that shouldn’t stop modern creators from telling a different story if they want to. They did in the most respectful way possible too. Not outright stating it but teasing it with the score.
@@blurbledurblechurble "Canon can be changed..." Nobody wants the canon to be updated. "Updating" as you call it, or "pissing on the fans" as I call it, is why the viewing numbers are a dumpster fire.
@@tim2024-df5futhe viewing numbers are just fine. I think it's likely you've made the textbook mistake of confusing overnights now and overnights 40 years ago (or even just 20 years ago) as being the same thing.
People binge shows now. They stream whole seasons. They buy box sets. They stream through external portals. if you think viewer numbers are down, you're just looking in the wrong places.
The gold flashy bombastic regenerations should have been kept to post 8th doctor incarnations. The Sisterhood's potion could have explained it.
It could have also been explained with the end of Matt's Doctor. Time Lord regenerations get more and more explosive as they progress through their regeneration cycle, which was why Tennant's regeneration into Smith did so much damage to the TARDIS compared to those before. However, the Time Lord's unorthodox granting of a new regeneration cycle caused a unique situation in which Smith's was so explosive that it took out so many Dalek ships signaling the end of the cycle. Yet, once the new cycle finally kicked in bringing out Capaldi, it was extremely minimal signaling the beginning of the new cycle. Granted, that was before Chibnall decided to toss out all that established canon.
It should not have been included, you're correct. Nevermind the fact that's it's so boring and repetitive.
@@Farsight-nc1ibYou’re the boring and repetitive ones.
@DrWhoFanJ nope! How's the filming of any new stories going? Oh, that's right, it's not. No Christmas special and no series next year...
@@Farsight-nc1ib Wrong on every count yet again. You really are determined to be as stupid as you possibly can, aren’t you‽
As a "younger viewer" (age 15), I felt that the warm games in colour removed way to much. It didn't a lot better job of carrying on the story than daleks did but removed all of the character development and small unique scenes. Carstairs and lady Jennifer get about 5 minutes worth and so when at the end Carstairs says he has a crush on her we don't ever see that (like Leela in Invasion of Time). Also the removal of the German leader (Von Wiech) who I didn't notice was missing for ages just made it jarring and weird when he just popped up for one scene with no explanation. Personally, the original is much better. I don't understand people who say they don't have the ability to watch a 10 parter. You aren't supposed to watch it all in one sitting. I think I watched it over the course of 2-3 weeks. These colourisations are still great to have and as a new viewer you don't know what your missing but as a classic viewer (which most of the people watching these things are) it's just jarring.
A fifeteen year old able to watch something in black and white for more than ninety minutes?!? Surely you're some sort of freak and must be rushed to a laboratory for immediate study! 😅 How is this possible? Fox Mulder must have a file on you!
Nicely said.
Ellie, as a 'younger viewer' forgets that in these modern times of streaming, people will binge watch entire series on one or 2 sittings but Ellie cannot do this with Doctor Who, whom she purports to be a big fan of.
The German leaders name is Von Weich.
When I did my first watch through of Classic Who I was 23, working two jobs, and quite active socially. I was time poor. I watched one or two episodes at a time, in and around everything else, and enjoyed it just fine.
One thing that always made the Eleventh Doctor very "Troughtonesque" was the way his hands moved when he was talking, and personality wise, 11 was a mixture of 2 and 7 (Eccleston was more 4s smile and 6s temper, Tennant was 5 and 8, and Capaldi more influenced by 3).
I read 12 as being both 3 & 7, but to each their own
I first saw this on PBS - they ran the whole damned thing in one day as part of their pledge drive.
Oh those days were fun. I always loved seeing it air on there.
“Phone us with your pledge now or we’ll make you sit through another episode.”
It think i watched the entire thing when I first bought the original vhs.
That's so very PBS of them. 😒
The only version of The War Games I've ever seen was the 10 episode version. That being said, I like what I've seen of the colorized version; that's mostly because it doesn't look like it was colorized, if that makes any sense. It looks like it was filmed in a color format. I also thought that the regeneration scene that was added specifically to the colorized version was beautifully done - it was elegantly simple and carried the tension and emotion that's part and parcel of the majority of regeneration scenes. I hope to see the colorized version myself someday.
Now, about the War Chief: back in uni when I saw The War Games for the first time, I was one of the fans who thought he was an earlier incarnation of the Master. Some of my friends weren't convinced, so I just kept politely quiet from then on. Whatever the true identity of this character is, I've always found the War Chief a truly formattable adversary for the Doctor. (Maybe we could consider the Schrödinger effect where the War Chief is and isn't the Master at the same time a "gift from the Toymaker".)
Saturated I think you mean by.
Looks coloured.
colourised*; formidable*
The war cheif isn’t the friggin Master. He was shot by six of the War Lords guards.
Out of university theory the War Chief is a precursor to the Master and there are linking themes both characters share.
The Master bi-generated into the War Chief perhaps? So they're not quite the same person.
Because I'm in the US, I haven't seen this. As an old school Whovian, I don't care for him seeing his future incarnations in that scene. While I can see how it works, it reminds me a bit too much of adding Hayden Christiensen at the end of Return of the Jedi. It feels shoehorned in, and I don't know what to think about it.
Also, considering the Wargames regeneration was one of the first Doctor Who things I ever saw, it hits a bit differently for me to see it changed. 3 year old me isn't happy.
But you’ll be able to watch the as broadcast version, all of classic who has been released in the USA.
Honestly, the use of the Saxon Master theme works for the War Chief even if he wasn't the Master: Remember that the Master was revealed during 10's time to had been manipulated and programmed by Gallifrey's War Council (Which is where that four beat rhythm comes from), which by connection and implication would be connected to The War Chief. Who's to say the War Chief wasn't involved in the Master's Programming? Just to spit ball a thought.
THAT. YES! We never saw Borusa before he became Lord President.
Rassilon aside, more broadly, the four beats represent the rhythm of the dual heartbeat of a Time Lord, so taken from this perspective, that musical motif could well be thought of as something that might characterise many insane Gallifreyans. I like the subtlety of this cue; it insinuates, but leaves room for both possibilities to co-exist, whether one would like to think of War Dude as the Master, or not. :)
It should be noted that Regeneration was a solution to the ill health of William Hartnell and they did not really think about it being an ongoing thing for several years so the idea that all the time lords regenerate; good, bad and mostly useless, was not fully worked out. We see it explored more in the comics and novels before being fully canonized on TV in the 1980's. So the idea of the War Chief being the master was only a fan theory though its was around almost as soon as the master made his first appearance. I'm old enough to have seen the original War games back when in first screened in the 1960's. When your 9 its very scary.
There is another thing to keep in mind with the classic who, back in the day we also had the Target books that came out around the same time as the series as they were written by the same writers of the show but the books fleshed out the stories more and there were differences.
The way I see it it’s all valid and gives us more of an enjoyable story, they cold portray in writing better than what the budget would allow them in the TV series.
Dear young people. Really, research old movies, tv, music etc. To understand modern sensibility you need to understand where it came from. Otherwise we get what we are getting, constant repeats, remixes and regurgitation of recent media. Classic literature is venerated for a reason
Bro almost all media has been done before. Art is theft, and great art is theft passed off as new production.
Doctor who isn't original.
Star wars isn't original.
Pocahontas isn't original.
The fucking Bible isn't even original.
All art takes cues and inspiration from other works. The best of it simply makes it FEEL new.
We shouldn't cling to the past.
It was actually 2 pieces of music, the Saxon theme and the Delgado Master theme.
The reason for the previous Doctors looking older was explained by 10 in "Time Crash: Children in need" special. Something about shorting out the time differential.
So.... they've changed the entirety of Dr Who cannon by playing a few notes over a scene of the War Chief, which 99.9% of viewers didn't even notice let alone remember having been previously played in an episode from 15 years ago? Reminds me of my English Literature O-level lessons when we would spend an hour analysing 2 sentences of Lord of the Flies with the teacher pontificating that the word choice allowed us to conclude what William Golding had had for supper the night before he wrote it.
I had a class on Golding like this too!
It's utter nonsense!
I love how 2 and Jamie have a great Jeff Lebowski/Walter dymaic they have (with 2/Jeff being a bohemian hippie who stumbles into adventure & Jamie/Walter being the wild warrior type who finds it.
😂😂😂😂
That rug really ties the TARDIS together
Everyone is overlooking that Roger delgados masters theme is played in the same scene like right after!!! Justice for Delgado ❤
Yes, exactly! I’ve been looking for a commenter that remembered that! 🎼🎶🎵❤️
But was that part of the colourisation edit or was it in the original?
@@johnnyash6384 that because most new NuWho fans have zero interest in Classic Who and will only notice anything NuWho.
@@paulbarnett227 Not part of the original.
@@Mark-nh2hsyea, 50+ years old episodes have less staying power in modern times.. naturally.
Are you... Dense? They can subtly add stuff to the lore all they want. They are the current creators and have the authority to do so. What authority do you have?
Trivia time: Matt Smith's performance as the 11th Doctor was inspired by Patrick Troughton's 2nd as he watched all of Doctor Who as preparation for the role as at the time he'd never watched a single episode of the show.
He must have watched some tom as well because he definitely has some of that in his doctor
@@charg1nmalaz0r51 He likely watched a specific section before he started, and continued to watch as he stayed in the role. I'm certain that within a couple of years he'd seen the majority of the show.
As a time traveller, all future and past incarnations of the Doctor exist at the same time within the universe. Even if they don't meet up, they cross their own time streams multiple times.
When it comes to Season 6B, it doesn't necessarily change the concept. In my head at least, the Second Doctor was lifted in the split second between disappearing into the void, and reappearing in the TARDIS. The Doctor would then on undercover assignments for the Celestial Intervention Agency, before being temporarily regenerated into the Fugitive Doctor to work for the dark corner of the C.I.A. known as Division. Once the Fugitive Doctor's served her purpose, Division return the Doctor to his second incarnation - reset to the point of sentencing - where he is returned to the TARDIS, mind wiped of all trace of his recent past, and then regenerates into his third incarnation. It certainly doesn't close the door on the concept, in any case.
Not possible. The Fugitive Doctor has always been explicitly pre-Hartnell.
Damn that’s good
That's a good explanation for the fugitive Doctor. Is she ever explicitly stated to be from a time before the 1st Doctor, because if so, why does she still have a Police Box TARIDS?
@@Pulsarnix They'll explain later :D
6B is still fine, Big Finish take 2 out of time as you describe, with him seeing 3 starting off briefly as he is convinced to do some work before he is returned to regenerate, similar to how Clara is running around the universe with Me in the moment before her death. As others have said though, Fugitive does not fit in here at all, she is pre-1 somehow
i am glad to see such a positive reception, and appreciation for the efforts that went into this edit.
The original creator of the War Chief said that the War Chief was not the Master. People should respect that, for the sake of art
Yeah, death of the author is nice sometimes, but some times it's just unnecessarily disrespectful
Flat out wrong. The “for the sake of the art” thing to do would be to change the story in order to tell a different, more compelling story. The anti-art approach is the one you’re taking. Nothing should ever be changed or iterated upon out of a false sense of respect.
You’re also forgetting that they DIDN’T say he was the Master.
@@blurbledurblechurble They heavily implied it though didnt they. You know what they were doing as does everyone who watched it. They added it because it was a running theory back in the day that quite rightly got squashed by one of the creators. I have no idea how shrinking the lore of the franchise for some fan based need to alter the character enhances anything. If anything it shrinks the universe by taking away a unique character for no reason. Not every time lord that is bad is the master. The time meddler, the rani and the war chief were other characters abusing their power. Why one of them had to be retroactively changed to be the master is just weird
@ Is it weird? Or do you specifically just not like it?
@@blurbledurblechurble There's a lot you can do even by respecting that this character is the War Chief. Are you saying that people lack imagination?
The fact of the matter is that when "The War Games" was first shown, the character of The Master hadn't even been thought of yet, since he wasn't introduced until the 3rd Doctor's 2nd series. So obviously he was never intended to be the Master initially, but there's no denying the characters of Roger Delgado's Master and the War Chief are quite similar. To my mind, whether you think the War Chief is an incarnation of the Master or not, is one of those cases that should be left up to the head canon of the individual viewer.
The Master was not in Jon Pertwee’s second series.
@@DrWhoFanJ - Pertwee's 2nd series (series 8 overall) comprised the stories - "Terror of the Autons", "The Mind of Evil", "The Claws of Axos", "Colony in Space" and "The Daemons". The Master was in all of them.
@ No, Jon Pertwee's second series was _Doctor Who and the Silurians._ What you’re describing there is *Season* 8, his second *season.* (Series 8 had Peter Capaldi and Jenna Coleman; the Master was in most of the episodes in their Missy incarnation, though.)
@@DrWhoFanJ I think your confusing the words "series and "serial". "The Silurians" was a serial. The overarching sequence of stories in a specific run is a series. I know it's known as a "season" in the US, but since I'm British and Doctor Who is British my original post is factually correct.
@ I’m British as well. "serial" and "series" were synonyms during the 20th century. It’s only this millennium that the two have diverged. (That’s why all the 1963-1989 Collection box sets say Season on them rather than Series as is on the 2005-2021 boxsets.)
I hate that there setting up the idea that the War Chief is the Master it's fanwank rubbish Terence Dicks has said he's not the Master RTD and his mate Collinson are just pissing all over his work. So disrespectful.
But does the show ever say he's not the master? Who cares what the Creator personally thought, if it wasn't officially in the story, then he still could have been the master.
Y'all are fucking stupid edgelords that gate keep a fucking 50+ year old story. Grow up.
Sure, Terrence Dicks did say that. He also said the War Chief was the Master.
His co-author also said the War Chief was the Master.
Making the War Chief the Master also tidies up the script in a narrative sense...why have two similar characters, each doing the same job, playing the same role in the same way?
And it does make this introduction to Gallifrey and the Time Lords a bit of extra punch.
I'm not sure why people hate this
@@edwardlafferty8796it's been contradicted several times over in novels, not just Timewyrm Exodus.
@joshuajoshua2732 You are right Joshua. Terrance Dicks was Dr Who's script editor from 1968 thru 1974. This period includes The War Games (1969) and Terror of the Autons (1971), which was the first episode to feature The Master. In fact, there were a lot of stories that featured The Master from Terror of the Autons thru Delgado's death in 1973 that were supervised by Script Editor Dicks. It is the script editor who is responsible for determining continuity between the various series/episodes as well as continuity within the characters. Thus, Dicks had the final and definite word on whether The War Chief was The Master and he made it clear that they were not the same person. This is just another example of how the BBC used colorization to stir up controversy and division amongst the fans. It is just another example pf how the BBC continues to corrupt this show's history and legacy, by dividing the fan base (revising & rewriting this story's original plot). Unfortunately, this hoopla is deliberate .... one of the BBC's favorite, conniving tactics that is used to generate publicity and ultimately sell more DVDs and BR's.
@@edcollins9377What about the times he agreed the War Chief was the Master?
I don't like the idea of the Doctor's regenerations being predetermined. I prefer to think they come about on a subconscious level. Like the Doctor taking on younger forms was a reaction to the Time War or that 12th was a reminder to himself to save others.
They are not predetermined. The Time Lords are trolling the Doctor. They looked into the future and saw what he would look like. They already know they are going to change him and what he will look like because they saw that too as well as the time war, thus why they get the Doctor to try to change the Daleks to be less aggressive or eliminated. Most of this is down to Goth from The Deadly Assassin. That’s him standing and passing judgment on the Doctor with a cheeky smirk. Note the looks back and forth between the Time Lords. They know about the Division, or at least Goth does. Probably thought this might help him become Lord President but the Crispy Master put an end to that.
It changes nothing. There is no official canon policy. Believe or disregard as you please.
Thats not how canon works. Once it is placed for consumption of the public all that information is now part of the storys canon. Sure you could ignore it but that doesnt change the fact that that thing is out there now as part of the lore
Honestly I know I'm in the minority but I don't like the idea of the War Chief being the Master. It just never sat right with me. I feel like it cheapens Delgado's run and makes it less special.
As someone who grew up with Classic Who (from the War Games onwards, oddly enough) I really don't like this. I can well imagine that most Classic Who devotees won't care for it either. TBH, I didn't particularly mind the controversial Timeless Child and its pre-Hartnell Doctors, not least because the precedent had been set in Brain of Morbius, but a pre-Delgado Master seems more "heretical" somehow :)
@@ftumschk agreed. Retconning the War Chief as the Master is much more sacrilegious and disrespectful to Who lore than the timeless child.
However, something way too many people dont seem to understand is: adding the master's music doesnt change the war chief into the master. Adding a modern regeneration sound effect after the war chief dies also doesnt change him into the master, it just means he's a time lord - which he already was.
Delgados master was the First the Best Master. Sick of RTD messing up Doctor Who.
You're not in the minority, I think.
I heard this theory way back in the late 80s/90s at first I liked the idea, as at that point I had not seen the War Games - I came into Doctor Who at 6 during 5th Doctor final season - plus watch old stories was very limited 😂. When I finally watched it on VHS I thought nah this is not the Master. I think the War Chief would be a good villain to bring back - where there is wars and blood shed - is the War Chief lurking in the background.
I'm glad it's in coloured too. I'll probably always prefer the originals in black and white with 1 and 2 but if it brings in new fans to classic who too I'm all for it
Really cool video! I totally agree with a lot of your assessments. However, I don’t think that 'War Games in Colour' rules out Season 6b. In The Two Doctors, the Second Doctor explicitly states the circumstances of his appearance. It’s made clear that the Time Lords granted him his freedom in exchange for carrying out missions for them. Since the Time Lords are introduced for the first time in The War Games and The Two Doctors must therefore take place chronologically after it, The Two Doctors essentially cements Season 6b as part of the canon.
Interestingly, it’s not just a theory-it was even explained on the official BBC Doctor Who website up until 2014 with a dedicated info page about the details of Season 6b.
15:54 maybe it's pretetermined but it could also be either them just showing the doctor his future incarnations (since they are time travelers they could check that out and have that knowledge) or they could be just showing a bunch of random people (humans or human looking aliens) that he subconsciously remembered whenever he regenerated and decided to take on the looks of each of them.
Dont apologise for being a younger viewer, I am 56 and still find some of the classic shows hard to watch (not many, but a few), it is what it is. I did know the story and I found some of cuts a little jarring, but still enjoyed the colourisation of the story.
10:07 As someone for whom lore matters, and who has seen and owns The War Games in its original form, I actually think they did a really good job of adding things without significantly changing anything, so there is room for both versions to be canon. While the ways in which they did it were sometimes a bit jarring and disjointed, it was clearly done with love, and, for me, enhanced the story. It was a little bit George Lucas Special Edition at times, but nothing that was done felt gratuitous or excessive to me. I was impressed.
Do you know if this version of The War Games will be made available as a physical copy or on any streaming service in the US?
They've released "The Daleks - In Colour" as a DVD in the UK, so there's a good chance it'll get to the US/elsewhere eventually. I suspect the restriction to the UK is a funding and/or licensing issue that'll get fixed if there's seen to be enough demand.
I have two issues.
So many say it doesn't erase the original as it still exists but also say look it changes canon. You can't have it both ways.
Also I don't like the argument that modern fans can't get into classic who. Just because it is difficult doesn't mean you shouldn't try. If you can binge a tv season in a day you can deal with classic who. Also, you don't have to watch it all at once. It isn't intended to be watched that way.
I feel like it's the general concensus that Canon and history doesn't matter in Doctor Who. Which I disagree with but that's what the majority of the Fandom believes
Average zoomer won't be watching black and white tv show no matter what.
@@stanleydude3340
Clearly "canon" matters more in Doctor Who than it does in say Batman. Martha and Thomas Wayne can die over and over and over again with no expectation for one of their deaths to painstakingly recreate previous versions; it can happen when Bruce is five or when he's twelve and the identity of the assassin can vary wildly, but Ian and Barbara follow Susan back to a scrapyard just once and any reference to that event has to be true to the facts as originally laid. Maybe that needs to change because the weight of over-complexity built up over time is causing it to lose all cohesion, but up until now there has been a canon that relatively rarely contradicts itself compared to what might be expected given its size, aside from notorious cock ups like Mawdryn Undead's UNIT dating or Paul McGann's half human debacle or the Eye of Harmony weirdly relocating to the TARDIS, the cybermen in Earthshock having footage from Revenge of the Cybermen even though that hadn't happened yet and so on... but the reason these errors are remarkable is because of how rare they are, not how common they are, and the fandom has been very creative in explaining many of them away by simple ret-cons. Why do the Thals the first Doctor meets think the Kaleds were called Dals? It's not beyond the wit of any fan to come up with a pithy explanation for that; it could be a mistake in their oral tradition or maybe "Dal" is the Thal word for Kaled, or Kaleds are a nation within the Dal race. It was cohesive enough for an effort to be made to smooth over the errors rather than just shrug them off or invoke "multiverse theory" which is the lasy resort of the desperate canon-keeper. But eventually it just gets too complicated, and I think that's where we are now; too many layers of complexity for any notion of canon to be clung to.
@@Jepze158
They will be wanting The Elephant Man colorized next.
i mean i was a modern who fan and watched the originals just fine. The first couple of seasons were a little slow and dated but it wasnt really that much of an issue lol
How can you comment on the merits of the new version if you haven’t seen the old one? It literally makes no sense at all.
Because some people always side with the new junk. I much prefer the old. I'm waiting on the BBC to sell us another version in a couple of years that claims The War Chief was the same character as the time meddling monk!!!
Yeah that stopped me around the 4 min mark. Usually I don't like being the if you haven't seen it you can't comment on it kinda guy. But this time it's a necessity to have some basis for the judgement about how much better it is to abridge a work and change it to meet the standards of the short attention spanned, updates effects if there is exactly ZERO experience with the original.
if you actually bother to watch she explains she has watched the original after watching the remake.
@dumb0999 and if she still prefers the ADHD version of the Cliff's Notes version the point stands.
As for Season 6B - there's nothing that was seen here that would render it moot. There's nothing that says this regeneration took place immediately after the last scene. It could have taken place years later, after all the unseen 6B adventures (and one that we HAVE - The Two Doctors), or even an implanted memory to cover up the fact that he (could have) regenerated into Jo martin in between.
I'd argue we have 2, the 5 Doctors as well.
Joe Martin's Doctor Who comes before William Hartnell 1st Doctor. This was shown to us in Jodie Whittaker's era. Joe Martin's Doctor left the planet became The Fugitive was captured memory removed. Was regenerated into a child who grew up to be William hartnell's first doctor and he left the planet.
There's plenty of things we've seen on Doctor Who that were forgotten, clarified, re-explained, or just plain changed in the past. Daleks used to run by static electricity, then by beamed power, and then just never mind, they just run on their own. And don't get me started on how gold affects Cybermen...
Everything we've been told about Doctor Ruth comes from third parties whose trustworthiness is in serious question. There's no reason they couldn't choose to reverse some or all of it later. A great many of the details of Doctor Ruth's life make more sense if they're placed between Troughton and Pertwee - the look (inside and out) of the TARDIS being an obvious example.
@@DanBen07 The big spanner in Fugitive Doctor being pre-Hartnell is that her TARDIS was a police box. Unless, of course, we have to accept a massive coincidence.
@@ndkbse It was in a comic book she just went to London 60s and her TARDIS became a police.
It was interesting to hear the perspective of someone who'd never seen the original. I couldn't help but "fill in" all the blanks after being familiar with the original. 10 episodes was extremely unusual even for the time, though. And I don't find the fast pace of New Who gives "tension" because it's all so fast.
It does very much speak of the fan need to "join the dots" with everything though. As for Season 6b, it started mainly because there were two (probably accidental) post-War Games references in The Five and Two Doctors.
Aww man, too many spoilers, I’ll have to come back and watch later. I’m watching my way through Classic Who, and have only just finished Abominable Snowman. When I get to it, I plan to watch all 10 episodes of War Games and THEN the colourized cutdown. And of course, then I’ll come back to get your take on it all. Tata, till then.
colourised*
I did like how they played into it so you could hear the War Chief regenerating.
6b wasn't between Troughton leaving and Pertwee arriving. It was between Troughton being sentenced and the regeneration. In fact 'World game' by Terrance Dicks put it more directly. After the tribunal, he's not sentenced to exile. He's sentenced to death...
I think the third doctor and 6th doctor can use a proper regeneration.
The 6th doctor would be helped greatly by some deep fake ai
I'm an older fan. Been one since 1973. But I totally understand your point about sitting through 10 episodes in b&w. However, have you considered watching any of season 22? Then, it was transmitted like it is today in 45-minute episodes. I myself enjoyed the colourisation of the War Games. Just some of the music was out of place.
Season 22*
Yet they can binge watch entire shows one after another but struggle with classic Who stories 😂.
I loved the colourisation, apart from using the modern doctors as options. I don’t think they altered it too much and the pacing was fabulous.
As for 6B, unless we’d seen 2 going directly from the trial to the Tardis, then there is always space for the Time Lords using 2 for some time, prior to forcing a regeneration. It’s murky and will always be so, unless it is stated otherwise in a televised episode. I would also add that in the 2 Doctors, not only is the Doctor decidedly older, but so is Jamie. Which can’t be explained in any sensible way, other than 2 meeting up with him after the trial.
The War Chief is intriguing, when I watched the original in the 90’s on video, I thought he was remarkably similar to the Master, in appearance, dress and attitude. To more heavily hint at this in this is fine with me. It doesn’t change anything really. With so little known of the Master’s prior incarnations to Delgado, it is stated that he is on his final regeneration in the Deadly Assassin. At most then we have seen 2 of the Master’s incarnations from his 1st regeneration cycle, or possibly 1. It is unclear if the Master in the Deadly Assassin is Delgado’s version or a later one. This leave at least 11 or 12 incarnations we have not seen on TV. If the War Chief was one of those I don’t think I’d be disappointed if he was.
The Doctor was better and more relatable as someone with humble beginnings rising above them than as an immortal god who is the cause and solution to everything, and in that same way the Master and the War Chief never needed to be the same person. It's entirely possible that two separate Time Lords could be evil on their own, and it works better that way for their stories. Are they going to retcon "Terror of the Autons" to suggest the Master and Doctor remember each other from "The War Games"? It's lazy writing and only serves the egos of Chris Chibnall and Phil Collinson while taking a dump on the work of Terrence Dicks and everyone else working on the show in the late 60s and early 70s. What a shame.
the original serial still exists mate, the recolor isn't taking a dump on anything
Except, as she herself pointed out, the shorter, colorized version is an official Doctor Who release, meaning those who have not yet watched the longer, B&W version likely won't. She hasn't, except to watch the different ending. So, yes, Collinson has taken a big dump on the writing of Terrence Dicks and Malcolm Hulke, and he has effectively changed the history of the Master which will make watching the rest of the Master's stories confusing for those new viewers, especially the early episodes. My advice to you is, instead of looking for an opportunity to be dismissive and condescending to make yourself feel better about yourself, maybe watch and listen to the video you're commenting on. Context is important, which was actually my point in the first place.
I like the changes made, makes the series as a whole a little more cohesive and consistent, the energy regenerations/ future incarnation previews etc.
There’s a lot of Classic Who in New Who so why not the other way around where possible?
Plus, if fans truly do not like them, at least the original version is available for us to watch
They don't need any taeaks, watch em as they are, in their original form.
"We only have one pair of hands between the two of us". Well, that's unfortunate!
I must admit, that was a very funny line! Cheers, sweet girl! 😊
"Unlike you, Professor, I no longer have the luxury of hands!"
Well, Ellis has 2 hands, so who is the poor handless partner creating these videos?
I never viewed the War Chief as the Master. As far as I am concerned he could be anybody. He'll he could be Valyard for all we know.
The Master
The war chief
Missy
The Doctor
The war doctor
The valeyard
Why can't they change their name? It's been shown before that when their personality greatly changes, they change their names.
The story was changed considerably. If you’d have seen the original you’d realise that. “You can’t rewrite history… not a single line.”
Time could always be rewritten. That line of dialogue was a warning to Barbara not to change history because there could be consequences, not that she couldn't.
People actually calling younger fans "fake fans" or being upset at them not wanting to delve deep into classic who are the worst kind of fans. I haven't seen much classic Star Trek (pre TNG), am I not a real fan? Ugh get a grip.
they are probably referring to the fans of doctor woke era, not the original or 2005
in which case, they are right
Why do an edited version? Why don't they just watch the original - same with all the classic stories. I had no issue doing that as a youngster. Also as a youngster I dislike B&W anything but for some reason the B&W Doctor Who stories sucked me in and was never an issue.
Uh, no. You’re absolutely a fake fan. If you haven’t watched - or at least are ENDEAVOURING to watch - every episode of the show, you are not a fan.
Really?? You call yourself a Star Trek fan and you haven’t fucking seen the Original Series??? I’ve seen every episode of every Star Trek show (except Discovery - not going there) and I don’t even consider myself a Star Trek fan! I’m more of a “casual viewer”.
“Fan” originally came from the word “fanatic”. And if you can’t even bother to watch the episodes that made the show what it is, you’re not even close.
@@Mark-nh2hs
You should also make an exception for The Twilight Zone, some of them are brilliant, and classic episodes of The Avengers are worth a look too. There is a lot of good telefantasy in black and white.
@@markpostgate2551 this was me as a youngster years ago. Now I happily watch any b&w shows lol. I think i watch some of the old TZ stories in my 20s
Its a very tricky thing when the new guard make changes because there is about a 70 year history of people watching and enjoying this show before a lot of the newer fans were even born. I like colourization but I don't like changes in cannon or erasure. The flaws of this show are ingrained in its beginnings
colourisation*; canon*; and the show is only 61 years old, so no-one can have been watching it for 70 years!
To your observation, yes, Patrick Troughton was one of Matt Smith's inspirations. Matt absolutely loved Patrick's Tomb of the Cybermen story. And Capaldi grew up with the first three Doctors, so those traits play through his run as well.
Im with you Ellie! I find it really hard to get into the classic who no matter how many times I try, they are too long to get into and the effects aren't like they are now. I want to get into it though. Not sure if there is any recommendations on classic who I should watch from you guys?
I think the problem is you guys binge it if you take the time to watch maybe one or two episodes at a time you might enjoy them better these things were made to be shown week to week.
I watched a lot of the classics as a teenage with no issue - the effects and length never put me off as I was absorbed into the story. I roll my eyes when people say they cannot get into Classic Who due to story length - but then can binge watch other TV shows is so hypocritical. If you cannot cope with watching long Dr Who stories watch an episode a day or a week like it used to be aired. Other than that unless you change your entire mindset and fous on the story and turn your mobile phone off. 😂 but I think splitting episodes could work.
If you’re wanting to sample classic Who I’d recommend Spearhead From Space (3rd Doctor), Genesis of the Daleks (4th Doctor) and The Caves of Androzani (5th Doctor). All are strong stories and don’t contain many shonky special effects.
@@BungleBare Genesis is a 6 episodes that could be too long, and Davros is now problematic don't forget lol. Caves may bore them as its a slow burner. All you recommended are excellent choices but some New NuWho fans could still struggle at these stories. 🤣
Im not being serious of course, Spearheads is a good choice, Earthshock is another. Some of the 6th Doctor stories as his season are roughly the same equivalent as a two part NuWho story.
15:32 I wish they’d keep the drawings of the potential regenerations, because three of them looked like Merlin, The Dictator, and The Other.
I agree.
I think the collection of potential regenerations should have included not only images of most of the Doctors, also have the Fugitive Doctor, perhaps some of the timeless children digitally aged, the Doctors in "The Curse of Fatal Death", and possibly even some of the companions.
I thought the exact same.
@@KnightRanger38 rapidly going through every actor in the show over the last 60 years between the original options would've been hilarious
It doesn’t really change the original story. The vague Master twist/hint is neither here nor there. I liked the colourisation
6:02 They also used the original Master's musical theme later when The War Chief was explaining his plan to The Doctor, and the modern era regeneration ringing-hum sound was low in the mix while The War Chief's body was being dragged off after he was shot.
The one thing I always think is skipped over, is that one of the original faces, is effectively a caricature of the fifth Doctor, it would have been nice to have included him especially as he's been seen in Time Crash & The Power of the Doctor (Not withstanding he's the father in law of David Tennant), if any classic Doctor should have been included it should have been him.
I never got to see the original story. Sometimes, the pacing did feel rushed, but I loved the re colour, the Master hints. When the Doctor first sees the war chief, Patrick Troughton conveyed so much with his reaction. You instantly believed there was a history between them.
in the new adventures they were written as having been at the academy together together with the master, the rani, the warchief, the monk and drax... together with a few others they formed a club called the decca... i think it was a peter davison missing adventure about his first encounter with the celestial toymaker... i dont remember the name of the book, but i do remember it explaining why the doctor was soooo scared of him!
@leecurtis2907 Aaahh thats so cool
Watch the original 10 part black and white at least you have story and isn't jarring and more effective.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. One of my ambissions is to see all of the Wargames in one sitting some day.
I did start chuckling when that cartwheeling 'Saxon' theme started playing. It sounds patronizing but you know that's for the benefit of the young folk who can then join the dots. I don't have the same level of objection to the War Chief/Master thing that other people might. It's pretty clear that they know each other fairly well, although perhaps the chummy nature of the relationship in the Pertwee era is simply down to how those two incarnations interact.
patronising*
Also the Saxon theme seemed so out of place with the story and scene 😂 so clearly shoehorned in.
It is interesting to hear younger views of the show. I grew up with Peter Davidson being the first time I really took notice of Doctor Who, although my favourite is John Pertwee. I do disagree with the view that multi-episode stories was hard. You have to think back when there was only three channels - yes I know you will never get that but try, having this to look forward to was a highlight for the week. The main thing that I think most classic fans have issue with is the rewriting history. The Timeless Child was the first real example of this but as an older viewer I have no problem with the regnerations being made more consistent with the modern era. It has all to do with respecting the lore while developing something new. The showing future regenertations was somewhat stupid though, but it was better than the drawings that the timelords had shown the Doctor in the original version.
I'd have been happy to see the original drawings turned into more photo-realistic renderings of the same faces. Using stills of Nu Who Doctors struck me as a joke
I think they should have kept the original faces. The regeneration was fun, though I didn't like the war chief being the master they should have let it be it's own character
Season 6B is definitely still canon for me, since otherwise, it makes no sense that The Second Doctor knows what Jamie and Zoe had their memories wiped when he meets the fake versions of them in The 5 Doctors, or that Jamie knows who The Time Lords are in The 2 Doctors.
The fact that The Second Doctor looks younger when he regenerates than he does in his later appearances can be explained away with The Tenth Doctor's line from Time Crash that The Fifth Doctor being near him "shorts out the time differential between the two of them" and makes him look older (which still doesn't explain why the past versions of The Doctor already look older before they meet their future selves in episodes like The 5 Doctors or The Day Of The Doctor, why The War Doctor and The Fugitive Doctor don't age at all when they meet their future selves, or why both versions of The Doctor look the same age in episodes like The Impossible Astronaut or Joy To The World when 2 versions of the same incarnation are in close proximity to each other, but never mind.)
The Sixth Doctor’s regeneration in Seven is pretty awful. Colin Baker was angry about getting fired (understandably) and refused to shoot the scene. He has since gone on to say that he wish that he had done it for the fans.
Colin is an amazing actor and he has really gotten to shine in Big Finish where he always does an amazing job. He is also a lifetime fan of the show. I feel like if anyone deserves to come back for a special as a returning Doctor, it should be him or Paul McGann (who had one movie and a phenomenal short).
As for Season 6B, I have assumed since The Giggle that the new idea is that it's a bi-generated of the Troughton Doctor who was on those other adventures including 3, 5 and 2 Doctors.
I'm writing this comment with the video paused at 02:45 so haven't seen the full video yet. But... Even as someone who grew up at the tail end of the classic era and watched many of these old stories as omnibus editions on UK Gold in the early to mid 90s I have to say that some of them do honestly go on quite a bit. An example: Inferno, great story, great acting, great locations. But my god, at 7 parts it really drags on in places usually repeating the same few plot points to progress the story - Doctor captured > Doctor escapes, companion captured > Doctor and companion captured > go to step 1 and repeat until the final episode.
Inferno is one of the best stories of Doctor Who.
How dare you criticise inferno? It is one of the best stories ever. Plus the captured/escaped scenes do not repeat. There’s only one time the doctor is in a cell and it’s only for like two scenes.
Where can we watch the War Games in color in the US?
One of my main faults with the episode is the amount of times we saw the galifrey intro shots and the base. They were over used in my opinion. I also loved the Easter egg of the year on the tardis console switching between 1970 and 1980 as it’s debated when unit stories actually take place. I do think adding regenerations is fine, like troughton to pertwee and Hurt to ecclestone. They shouldn’t be re-written. Finally I only recognised the war chief as being an important character because of the Saxon master theme. Straightaway I knew what it was hinting at
Great to hear a “new” viewers opinion from an older fan. Every few years I do “the Journey” - watching every episode I can from An Unearthly Child thru to the latest episode. Just before Christmas I finished the War Games before going into the Pertwee era. I have no issue with these cut down versions and hearing this experience from younger eyes I’m happy if new viewers watch the classics this way. If it helps them appreciate older Doctors then that’s great.
I read somewhere that out-of-universe the War Chief was a kind of prototype Master even if they weren't intended to be the same character in-universe
I don't think it completes Series 6B to bed. Not quite. Because we don't know if there was anytime between the trial and his regeneration. The one thing that this confirms is that the Ruth Doctor is pre-hartnel.
Season* 6B
Personally, I prefer the idea of different regenerations. The orange glow should only have happened between Eccleston and Tennant, as it was the remaining energy from the heart of the TARDIS that the Doctor absorbed from Rose, so when Tenant did the same thing, it just felt wrong, and it hasn't felt right since using it as there shouldn't be any left to come out!
I liked that each Doctor had their own unique regeneration, just like they are unique versions of The Doctor. I hope they don't go back and "fix" those regenerations to make them uniform like the NuWho ones.
@@mdewsall17 I agree I was expecting different regenerations but nope the tired old NuWho step back turn, strike the pose and lift head up and gold magical fire explodes - yawn. Plus is it me but all NuWho doctors regenerations are predominantly triggered by absorbing to much energy/world destroying energy or zapped by an energy ray gun of some description. So predictable, its like when The Toymaker had that big lazer gun in the Giggle I knew as soon as in saw it "yep the Doctor will get zapped with it and he will regenerate". Low and behold predictable NuWho - I was laughing when many NuWho fans where shocked and not expecting it to happen?? Its was so obvious 🤣
@@Mark-nh2hs Exactly, and Eccleston even described his regeneration as him absorbing the energy from the heart of TARDIS which he clearly expelled from his body during the regeneration, so how can it be exactly the same the next time without the Doctor absorbing more of it first!
@@mdewsall17 exactly 👍
6B could still have happened because of the gap between Abyss and TARIDIS. I've always wondered why he was not shown an image of the Third Doctor as an image in the revamped version considering he was demonstrated other regenerations before the decision was taken out of his hands. Also, considering the bi-generation has gone back through all the Doctor's previous regenerations why didn't we get the bi-generated version on the revamp? That would have eliminated the 6B problem altogether.
Wasn't the master music also used for the reveal of The Beast in the 2nd New Who series before it was used for the Master?
Yeah, I just thought it was Murray Gold's "tension-building" theme. If it's not the same music used in the build-up to the Sutekh reveal, it's very close!
Also the bi-generation going back along the Doctor's timeline, whatever that means, is probably best left as RTD's own personal head-canon. He's got some very odd ideas about this show, that man 😂😂
In the three Doctors Patrick Troughton appeared out of his own timestream inside the Tardis in the two Doctors he was with Jamie but not Zoe he also was in the five Doctors don't forget
It wasn't changed anything, the only thing its done is people will finally stop saying Fugitive is between 2 and 3, which was a ridiculous theory
Here's another theory Ellie. This 'The War Games' is just a fan fiction touch up of a classic and isn't anything to do with canon which leaves everything else still as it is and could be. Glad you liked it better than 'Joy to the World', JttW wasn't bad in my opinion but it's gotten a bit of backslash for being a story about isolation and absolute self determination during the silly season which I hadn't thought of during the show. But I also didn't think that Dot and Bubble was a story about racism and so fans are pushing back with their new programming.
Keep up the good work and don't let you noticing things make you feel bad. Lots of people notice these things too and feel similar ;)
frankly, it doesn't look like a colorization, it looks like it was originally shot that way, and just ended up on the tapes in black and white. and someone agrees with me the only thing left is giving a proper 6/7 transition...which should just take some very minor stuff to do, really. we've even got a War to Nine that's good enough. I have a copy of the original 10 parter I got in, of all things, a yard sale box. it also came with the 3-4 regen ep planet of the spiders (which is pretty much where I started on Who), and even the entirety of "trial of a Time Lord!" my biggest coup out of that box, however, was managing to get hold of a FIRST doctor serial...back from before they started having to hunt for most of his eps or recreate them.
Not sure how you'd update all the regenerations. 7->8 would be weird and 4->5 would be almost impossible
I've watched some of the original War Games and definitely thought the pacing was quite slow compared to what we're used to, lol. I'd love to see this colorized version sometime (I'm American, so who knows when that might be lol). The Master's music being added to certain scenes is so chilling and so cool!!!
The Classic era was vastly different, compared to the format we have now. Which is a good thing. But it is fun to revisit the past, to compare as well
colourised*
I didn't find it slow at all.
@DrWhoFanJ Hey, I did say I was American 😄 hahaha!
@@homogenized That doesn’t change that you misspelled the word and your username.
Romana got to pick what her regenerated body looked like. But there isn't enough information to know if the "models" we saw were the only ones available to her.
That scene always made me think that the regeneration choice thing is circumstantial - the Doctor has always suffered some sort of immediate trauma prior to a regeneration whereas Romana just decides to. As such, it makes a kind of sense that she would have more control and experience less ill effects than the Doctor attempting emergency repair of near fatal damage.
Matthew Rhys would be amazing as The Brig IMO
It would be hard for anyone to really replace Nicholas Courtney, but I do love Matthew Rhys and would like to see him appear in Doctor Who, so I'll support this idea. I could also imagine Sean Pertwee in the role, which would be a nice nod to the relationship between his father's Doctor and the Brig.
I hate the orange glow being put into Classic Who & being replacing the original effects. I much prefer how Regeneration was handled in the Classic Series where each one was different. Variety is always better than conforming to 1 single way of doing something. With the exception of 3 into 4 (& maybe 6 into 7), all of the Classic Regeneration effects I think are great, and I honestly Modern Who should ditch the boring Orange Glow for something new.
The 2nd Doctor’a regeneration is one of my favourites, seeing his own face around him, only to lose his own! Screaming in horror in a black void with no face, disappearing into it only to come out with a new one. I think it’s amazing, and I’m kinda miffed that they changed it & even more miffed that they’re saying they’re one should be THE Regeneration.
I remember when the Doctor Who UA-cam Channel uploaded a Regeneration Compilation a couple years back & used the Twice Upon A Time 1st Doctor Regeneration instead of the Surviving Clip from The Tenth Planet & how that kicked up a fuss. I imagine if they did the same but with The 2nd Doctor with The War Games In Colour, there would be an equal amount of fuss.
To be fair, if you were going to talk about the War Games, why not take the time to do the research and actually watch the original and the modern version so you can have that perspective and do the comparison rather than just state that you never watched the classic? I get the number of episodes and the time thing as you mentioned. I come from Classic Who and have watched all 26 seasons. I know I could only get through 1 or 2 parts at a time. I generally had only an hour of television a day along side school and a full-time job, and it took several months to get through all the seasons and do Nu Who as well. I just think a little more effort would have been appropriate, in my opinion.
HELL NO!!!!!!!! a color crap-erized version with 80% of the story edited out, and its the best one to START WATCHING WITH!!!!! MY FOREHEAD NEEDS A BRICK WALL TO REMOVE THE STUPIDITY OF THAT OUT OF MY BRAIN.
Stop talking utter gibberish.
Look , it's WhoCulture. What did did you expect from these clowns. I didn't expect anything less from these people who only know this show mostly from 2005 onwards. Most fans say the same thing, excellent colourization made it look amazing. Over all most criticized many things including the editing, pace of it with so much cut, suggesting War Chief being the Master and the faces suggested for his regeneration making it look like it was not random but making it look it was predetermined. Fans who loved it all are in the minority.
Ellie, you're doing great. I'm really enjoying who culture with you as the host. Please please please keep up all your incredible work.
About Season 6b, We can assume that the events still occur, just in the gap between when the Doctor is sent hurdling away and when we see him sitting inside of the TARDIS. We saw Eleven age incredibly old, then he returned to a younger age, then regenerated into 12. Perhaps since this was a forced regeneration, the Time Lords forced him to his younger appearance than to regenerate in the TARDIS. I wish they had just used the scene from The Two Doctors to do the forced regeneration.
Here is my take on the Canon: the original will always be the definitive Canon, though the colorization condenses the story to the modern audience. The colorization is canon, with filler taken out and a proper regeneration shown (albeit with some CGI). It does not matter which of them is or is not because they both are. They both tell the same story, with the same meat in the middle, with the same ending.
colourisation*
You right in one aspect but one version clearly makes out the War Chief is the Master and you can see a bigger clash among Classic/NuWho fans and the New NuWho fans - who will argue the new War Games is the correct one and the original is now non canon etc etc.
I'm reminded of an old story about author James Cain when asked how he felt about the movie adaptation of THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE ruining his book. He casually pointed up to the novel on his shelf and (to paraphrase) said, "No, the book's not ruined. See, it's still there on the shelf."
Same here with WAR GAMES. A revision of it was made, but the original is still there for us to watch in a variety of formats. It didn't go anywhere, so all this concern some fans have about a few changes being made for this condensed version is a tad moot in the end.
Just to mention - Series 6B came not so much out of Troughton looking older, but that Doctor #2 said and did things in THE FIVE DOCTORS and THE TWO DOCTORS to suggest knowledge he could not have had until *after* THE WAR GAMES (knowledge about Jamie in TFD and actively working *for* the Time Lords in TTD, for a couple of examples). Series 6B remedied those concerns without affecting any of the canon, which is no doubt one of the reasons why Terrance Dick would even play with the idea in the novels that came later (of course, as mentioned by others here, he also was adamant that the War Chief and the Master were not the same and ... well, we can see how that turned out).
Does this new ending eliminate the possibility of Series 6B? No, on the contrary, it makes clear that something must have happened between going into the vortex and him sitting comfortably in a chair in the TARDIS. It's not like every Doctor has suddenly jumped into a void and reappeared reclining in the TARDIS when regeneration has occurred. Doctor #2's change is special, and to disappear into ... whatever that's supposed to be there, easily sets up him being given a chance to do exactly as written about for Series 6B to work. Of course, this is just another fan stating their own beliefs here, so the creators on the show can do whatever they like, but I would definitely fall into the camp of saying this doesn't "close the book" on Series 6B.
As to the Master and the War Chief being the same? Well, I fall into the *other* camp way over there that had watched THE WAR GAMES in the 1980s for the first time and said, "Hey, couldn't they be the same?" So, eh. Works for me.
Some good questions you've raised in your video essay, so wanted to throw in my own thoughts in response. Shame seeing all ten episodes in their original form doesn't interest you in the way it does some of us fans, but maybe you'll come around to our way of thinking eventually. 🙂
Season* 6B
It is bizarre to me that she says "ten episodes is daunting" because "TV is different now" when long serializations are more common now than they were then; most SF shows in the sixties were stand alone stories that could be shown in any order because of the American syndication model - compare the 1960s Lost in Space that can be viewed more or less in any order bar the initial establishing episode, because each one episode story winds up not changing the situation one jot with no cliffhangers compared to the 2020s Lost in Space reimagining which is a 28 episode serial in which every episode shifts the plot along and each ends with a cliffhanger. That is the direction of the trend; Doctor Who is an outlier by going in the opposite direction. Effectively it is more "Americanized" but towards a model of American TV that is thirty years out of date - that is it is trying to be, in terms of format, like 1990s American TV. When I put it like that it reminds me of the Russians in classic Spitting Image demonstrating their hippness to Western culture by digging The Monkees.
The pros and cons of serialization stem from whether or not the serial has a predetermined arc and length or if it is to continue indefinitely until cancellation looms and then rapidly tied up in a messy knot of the numerous random plot strands, with the latter usually making for disappointing and messy last seasons (e.g. Lost or Game of Thrones) despite being pretty good up until that point, or worse having cancellation imposed between seasons meaning it winds up being an unfinished serial. The beauty of classic Who was it was a series of serials with each serial having a predetermined length, so effectively the programme had a reboot and jumping on point every four to six weeks. In fact classic Who had the perfect format for modern streaming with the advantages of both a serial and of a series.
@@DrWhoFanJ A pedant has entered the chat. In the UK it was always "series" - the "season" thing is an American influence.
At 11:42 give credit to The Confession Dial who made the regeneration. He is not just “someone on UA-cam”
it’s wild to me that the orange glow has become standard regeneration energy/look, when it clearly wasn’t intended for that when it was introduced with Christopher Eccleston. It was established as the visual symbol of the time vortex, leaving his body after he took it in to save Rose. I like it, and think it’s a neat shorthand that the show has done a lot of good with since then - but pretending that it should be made canon for every Doctor beforehand is ridiculous.
One thing I would have liked to see was Galifrey interpreted as a 60s/70s style model. Other than that I thought it was well done.
What I love about the War Chief is Master theory, is that the young boy Master from David Tennant’s episode showing the backstory - they look like the same person!
If I were to make a case against the revelation/change, I'd have to say it'd be the idea that you'd expect The Doctor to recognize The Master, no matter what he looked like.
I think I could made an equally strong argument to claim that The War Chief was The Monk.
@@VinnieBartilucciummmmmm he didn’t recognise the master when he was hidden in the old man form
@@VinnieBartilucci Sometimes the Master doesn't even know the Master! The entire identification process can be a bit "hmmm" and "iffy" for a while sometimes
I think continuity-wise the ending arguably does more damage than anything the previous regime did. We already know the Doctor's ultimate origin is shrouded in mystery and the show has always left it up in the air as to who and what the character is. But now we're dealing with events on screen that might seem to actually contradict a whole number of stories. Fans were very set on the idea that 'The Two Doctors' was, at least in the Doctor's own timeline, a prelude to all that trouble-shooting that his third incarnation was sent on - rather unwillingly. So now we've got an entirely new mystery to sort out. Unless RTD is suggesting it was a bigenerated form of Two...?
Highly disrespectful to all those involved in the original production and to the late Roger Delgado who was the first Master to appear onscreen and made the character so popular. But of course, it would never dawn on the kids that it could be in bad taste. They were different characters, one devised by Dicks and Hulke, the other by Dicks and Letts.
One thing is - The Sound Of Drums.
The Master’s tapping his fingers on the desk/table. The rhythm he uses is the baseline of all Dr.Who theme tunes. We later learn it’s the signal the Time Lords put in his head so they could track him down.
But, it is always there is the theme, so does it suggest he’s always there?